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Topic: How is the bible proven true?
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OxBaker
Advanced Member
Member # 1547
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posted
quote:
It's whats causing you to post such long winded posts in the first place and what continues to draw you back to read through such long winded responses as this one. God just won't let you know. You watch and see.
Whoops, meant to say "God just won't let you go". Now thats a freudian slip if I ever saw one ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
Posts: 24 | From: Red Deer | Registered: May 2003
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OxBaker
Advanced Member
Member # 1547
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posted
One difficulty in addressing posts like this is that CloudHands has posted roughly 50 questions so far. I'd have to write a novel to address it all. So rather than tackeling each individual question, I'm going to address what I think is the root cause of the questions. And that is Christianities lack of understanding regarding what revelation is. Because we've gone and got this idea of the infallability of Scripture so firmly engrained in our modern way of looking at the faith, it's no wonder that people believe that we follow Christ because the scripture has somehow been proven to be true to us.
It sounds like Cloud Hands and Prophesy Eye believe in God and have even believed in the Christian God but can't understand how they can continue to believe in the Christian God if they can't prove the Bible to be true. So the problem here lies in the understanding of what Revelation really is.
So lets start from square 1. We believe there is a God (for one reason or another) and it stands to reason that if an infinite being created lesser beings there would be a purpose or reason behind that creation. I also think that it’s reasonable to say that traits that were designed into us should reflect that purpose. A couple of very obvious trait that man has is a drive to be relational and to know their creator, so it further stands to reason that if God created those trait within us, he would also provide the means of knowing him, or at the very least, making Himself known to us. This is what we refer to as “revelation”. But what form did this revelation take? Well, as an Evangelical I was more than indoctrinated enough to be able to tell you that “God reveals himself to man through the inspired scriptures”. To the Evangelical mind, “scripture” and “revelation” tend to be interchangeable. But putting aside preconceived beliefs for a moment, what are we really referring to when we attempt to define “revelation” in a Christian sense. Is it not the means in which an infinite and unknowable God attempts to make himself known to finite man? Revelation is every shape and form of God encountering man; God graciously stooping to mans level in order to make Himself known to us. And an important distinction to make is that God’s revelation is not primarily the oral or written communication of those encounters but rather the encounters themselves. And the breadth and width of the forms those encounters took place are incredibly varied. Everything from theophanies, angels, dreams, oracles (such as Urim and Thummim), visions, natural phenomena and historical events, and wondrous guidance given to human beings such as the words and deeds of the prophets, and ultimately through the ultimate self-manifestation of God in human form and the witness of Him by the Holy Spirit in the hearts of believers and finally the fixing of this witness in written form as the Scriptures. Emil Brunner put it this way; “Divine revelation is not a book or doctrine; the Revelation is God Himself in His self-manifestation with history. Revelation is something that happens, the living history of God in His dealings with the human race”. So to the Christian, should the ultimate form of “revelation through encounter” not be Christ Himself? The Word of John 1:1 “became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.” Through Christ, not only was sinful man redeemed, but man experienced the greatest expression of God that we could take in on a level of the senses; God in flesh, Revelation through encounter.
And it’s through this medium of Encounter that Revelation should be viewed as far more than just the attaining of knowledge as we tend to boil it down to in Christian circles. All that gaining knowledge does for a person is to enlarge the sphere of that which they know. They simply end up possessing a larger sphere of knowledge but they themselves remain the same person. It’s kind of like a man who builds an addition onto his house. He then owns a larger house but he himself remains the same man. Revelation, on the other hand, is far beyond that. Sure, depending on the form that the revelation takes, we may gain some degree of knowledge but the fact that it is occurring as a form of encounter with God results in a change in the person being encountered. In my previous example, both the house and the person are transformed. It’s the continuous process of “rebirth”, “death of the old” and “resurrection of the new man” (John 8:36, 2 Cor. 3:18).
Now some of you may be saying “But if Christ is God revealed, then is not the best way to “know” him to read of him in the scriptures?” Well, yes and no. We wouldn’t know what Christ said or did during his time on earth if we didn’t have the written record of those events. However, that’s not the primary means that God meant to continue to reveal himself to us and he even tells us as much through the Scriptures (I realize that’s a “catch 22” but bear with me). When it came time for Christ to ascend to the Father in John 15, he said “When the Counselor comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who goes out from the Father, he will testify about me. And you also must testify, for you have been with me from the beginning”. So Christ says that not only will the writers of Scripture testify about Christ but also the “Spirit of Truth” will testify. And more importantly, he goes on to say “I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth”. He didn’t say that any book would guide us into all truth. In fact, Christ says that he had a lot more to tell the disciples. And I could go on and on about all the passages that talk about Christ imputing his righteousness to us and living His life out through us. But the writer of Hebrews sums it up well when he says “How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death, so that we may serve the living God!” Christ’s blood not only redeems us from death itself but also from the acts that we would normally do that lead to death. We can serve the living God because of the depth of what true revelation is; Not simply knowledge attained through figuring our the right set of rules in a book but rather ongoing, life changing encounters with a being that transforms us.
So I guess what I'm getting at is that a person doesn't prove Christ exists through proving that the scriptures are infallible, but rather they believe in Him because they have encountered Him on a spiritual level that cannot be easily described let alone proven.
So the next reasonable question that your going to pose is something like, "So how do you know that the 'experience' that you have is not just in your head? How do you know you wouldn't experience the same thing in some other religion such as Islam?" Well thats a good point. The truth is that I don't know. It may be in my head and who know's whether I'd experience it elsewhere. But neither of those reasons are enough to warrent that I should ignore the experiences that 'I' have. And the really irritating fact is that even if I wanted to (which I reeeaaaallly did) I can't ignore them any more than I think you two can. It's whats causing you to post such long winded posts in the first place and what continues to draw you back to read through such long winded responses as this one. God just won't let you know. You watch and see. He's going to keep driving you to search for answers and reason out why he does what he does. And feel free to try but your not going to find the answers within Islam or Buddhism or anywhere else. It will be within the faith that you first truely encountered Him. And the other thing that is really irritating is that you'll never find all the answers your looking for. Because although you'll be able to determine that there is a God, and you will come to the conclusion that He is Christ, you'll come to realize that God never meant for us to have all the answers in the "here and now". Why? Well this post is already getting to long and I need to eat but if your interested, just and me and I'll tell you why I think it is
Posts: 24 | From: Red Deer | Registered: May 2003
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Praise Adonai
Community Member
Member # 1501
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posted
Just the fact that you bring up Mother Teresa, Buddah, Ghandi, Mohammad and the rest of them is a good point. All of their remains still rest in their graves, whereas Jesus Christ is not in HIS tomb. Its empty, he is the only one who has EVER been resurrected and remained that way. Do you think that the Apostles would have subjected themselves to what they did based on an untruth??
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I can do all things thru Christ who strengthens me.
Phil. 4:13
Posts: 11 | From: Texas, USA | Registered: May 2003
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CloudHands
Community Member
Member # 1177
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posted
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"Did God really say..."
Posts: 14 | Registered: Mar 2003
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CloudHands
Community Member
Member # 1177
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posted
Dear Gary if Jesus is anywhere as interesting and loving as He is depicted in the bible I would have no trouble being with Him for an eternity or two anywhere!!!
If Jesus is as He is described in the bible I really like this guy and want to be much like Him with my own twist of me I guess.
I don't agree with everything He said and to me His authority is just as great as some of my closes friends', my fathers or mothers etc. As I see it we are all equal.
Of course there are people who live extraordinary lives, jut out from the crowd and accomplish something great to be remembered for a very long time, but these people are never anything more or anything less or less worth than me, including Jesus.
Have to go and visit my parents in-law now, so the rest will come later ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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"Did God really say..."
Posts: 14 | Registered: Mar 2003
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njclary
unregistered
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posted
Dear friends; I do understand your frustration.
Let's start from here.
God is real. Do you believe that? Do you believe that God exists? That is the first thing to to acknowlege.
The next thing to understand, is, God created all things. Do you believe that?
Now in understanding that God is able to create all things, you must recognize the AWESOMENESS of God. here we have a world of 7+ billion people, in a star system of billions of stars called the milky way galaxy, which is one of billions of galaxies, in a universe so vast it cannot be comprehended. How AWESOME is God??? and in the same light, How FEARSOME is God.
Now in His creation he Created Man. Created man in His image. Created man with free will. Man fell. Man in his free will sinned. God was ever faithful and patient, As a parent trains a child God set about training His Children. Sometimes harsh, sometimes kindly, but always fair, and just.
Now God Speaks to us today through His word. If God, to you is real, then you MUST accept His word as True. as it says in John 1:1 "In the beginning ,was the Word, the Word was with God and the Word was God." The Bible IS GOD. GOD IS THE WORD. Therefore if I believe God is real then I believe that the Word is true.
You must believe. All is on Faith. I must have a basis of Faith and that Basis is the Bible. That is the foundation.
All this being said; Christianity is the only Faith that promises a life with God in Heaven. To those who believe. To those who accept Jesus as their personal Lord and savior. God does want His Children, to be with Him in His Home in heaven. God wants us to be His. But that can only happen by Salvation in Christ.
Again, by Faith.
The Bible, by the way, has been over and over proven by archeology, and study. Yes it on many occasions has been corrupted, and tainted, BUT the original word is still true and infallible.
From what I read in your posts, you search for the easy way. No responsibility. no responsibility of Faith. Being Christian is not easy, is not a panacea of ills. It is the toughest thing you do each day. Temptations are all around. Only by abiding in the Love of Jesus can you triumph.
Satan is working on your heart, and you need to turn to Jesus today, so that Satan can be thwarted.
Wont you look into your heart today and see the need for the Savior in your life?
God Bless you in your decision.
Joel
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Gary
Advanced Member
Member # 523
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posted
What is the big thing people have about choice, and free will?
This question came to my mind as I read your posts:
Would you rather have a choice, or salvation? Which is more important to you?
Is it really that important to be able to choose between salvation and damnation? If you really want to be saved, you probably will be, because only those who desire to be with Christ will be with Him. Those people who want nothing to do with Christ will get their wish, too. God won't save anybody who doesn't want to be saved. He won't violate your precious "free will".
Personally, I would rather that God chose me, quickened my dead soul, made me alive to Christ, and sealed me for salvation, than to make me choose between what I want and what He wants for me.
(Hope I didn't mess up your brains too much with this. ![[eek]](eek.gif) )
Gary
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"For the wages of sin is death,
but the free gift of God is eternal life
in Christ Jesus our Lord."
Romans 6:23 NASB
Posts: 436 | From: Mankato, Minnesota | Registered: Oct 2002
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CloudHands
Community Member
Member # 1177
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posted
What then is this frustration and not-knowing for real what is true or not in a biblical sense a result of mr. Satan pulling my strings???
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"Did God really say..."
Posts: 14 | Registered: Mar 2003
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CloudHands
Community Member
Member # 1177
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posted
Well, well... I can rant on and on, just spilling my guts and then you go and hammer the nail right on the head in less than 30 lines... Thank you very much, I really like when people are able to describe my thoughts better than myself... ![[Kiss]](graemlins/Kiss.gif)
Thank you!
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"Did God really say..."
Posts: 14 | Registered: Mar 2003
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ProphecyEye
Advanced Member
Member # 199
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posted
I have been struggling with many of the same questions and unfortunately I haven’t found many answers. Most recently I have been thinking about the fact that of the 6 billion people on this planet, about 2 billion are Christians. Probably less than 2 billion if you take into account the fact that many people consider themselves Christians without a faith in Christ. In short, that is a lot of people heading for eternal damnation if the Bible is true.
This doesn’t sit well with me and if I bring it up with any Christians, most simply reply with “it is there choice”. This to me is an unsatisfactory answer for a number of reasons. Ignoring the fact that there are many people on this planet that have lived and died without even hearing the gospels or the works of Jesus, there is the whole issue about choice and how many choices we come across in life, simply are not choices at all. For instance, I’m willing to bet there are a lot of people who read this board that if asked if they would ever convert to Islam, they would say not in a million years. If you tell them it’s the only way to salvation, you would simply be blown off… yet this is exactly what Christians (and God?) expects from non-Christians. Another example would be for me to ask an average person to kill me in cold blood so that my blood could atone for their sins and lead to salvation because a book says so. People have the choice to kill me yet I’m willing to bet most decent people could hardly bare the thought let alone do it. These are examples of choices that aren’t really valid choices to people yet a choice like this is the only way to salvation. This seems somewhat ridiculous to me.
About the only thing I can gather right now is that there is a God or at least something out there as there is too much evidence against the theory that matter and energy are eternal and without meaning and that everything around us is an accident. If you chose to put faith in the God of the Bible then one can only live life knowing that in the grand scheme of things, you are a peon who was created to serve a purpose, a creation that can be destroyed if the creator so pleases, and to question the exact motives and reasoning behind such a powerful higher being will only drive you crazy and make you angry at God. The only logical thing to do would be to accept your place, forgo worrying about the billions of damned souls, and make the best of the situation you are in. At least God loves you.
In the end, what is your alternative? Put faith in another religion with the same types of problems? Put your faith in nothing at all, do as you please, and hope for the best after death? Keep telling yourself that no higher beings exist?
Feelings can be easily misguided, and due to lack of valid provable facts, logic has failed us. All we can do is take a shot in the dark with our faith out of fear and hope for the best.
Posts: 67 | Registered: Jul 2002
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CloudHands
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Member # 1177
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posted
Just to get ahead of you... if this are some of the more than 2000 prophecies of the bible that is proving the bible to be true, im not impressed. A vast majority of these verses of scripture could apply to a lot of things other than the "fulfilled" prophecy they are ascribed to...
I can understand how someone deeply imbeded in the study of the bible or the run of the mill christian could be convinced by this as it is a part of their truth to believe that there is a connection...
Much like looking at something in dim light, imagining what it is and when you get closer you see that it was not at all what you thought it was... We make up our own truths in this way and the belief in the bible (or anything else for that matter)as being THE TRUTH is just the same as I see it.
And again maybe I am the one needing to get closer... you never know...
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"Did God really say..."
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CloudHands
Community Member
Member # 1177
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posted
quote:
Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
Dont tell me that this religion isn't based on fear instead of love...
This verse above alone proves to me that it is fearbased religion. But ok if all the derivates of fear is what one wants then it is indeed a good way to walk
"Strive to enter..." indicates that there is a possibility to miss the target( sin) if one doesn't strive enough. "Strait gate" indicates that the chance to get in is narrow and then at last the nail is hammered right on the head "...for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able."
What more do I have to say, only God knows with certainty who will enter and who will not and thus the biblical God forces us to live in subconscious doubt that we will ever meet the steep requirements that is the law. And don't tell me about our salvation through Christ is lifting the burden off of your shoulders, 'cause even under the new covenant there is doubt that you will enter, it even states that many will not at all enter.
What is many? Many opposed to what? Few? If I have 100 dollars, much of it would be everything above 50...
Is the wickedness of the world according to the bible so deep and twisted so that 50%+ have to perish at best and burn in hell forever and ever at worst?
How can you without putting several logs in your own eyes, say that this is a good way to believe, that this is fair, that this is divine justice?
Subconsciously whether you want it or not it will reflect on your view of the world and other people. Maybe you will strive to live the high calling, maybe you will run to win the prize, maybe you take up your cross, but no matter what, Jesus will be there between you and other people and instead of getting closer, the gap will broaden, because it is built into your religion that there are those who will perish because of sin and wickedness.
If by some divine intervention of unmatched compassion and love we should all be saved anyway, doesn't that prove the bible prophecies wrong then?
Well im getting all frustrated here ![[Bang Head]](graemlins/BangHead.gif) because I live a life that is good to me and the people i know and maybe even people I don't know. This life is filled with love, caring, freedom, success, failure, crisis, low income, high income etc. etc. A life like any other persons. Then a christian points to a book and says, that my life and my values are not true, because it is written... blah blah blah. They tell me that im governed by the powers and principalities, the devil and the spirit of this time etc. They tell me that my sins against a father that has never proved His existence to me in the way that He appears in the bible, can be forgiven if I just accept Jesus, the slaughtered lamb, the prince of peace as my Lord and Saviour... This story doesn't get any better... I can imagine many reasons for entering into that experience of subordination, but honestly, personally I dont buy into any of them...
Look at the world! Has it made a difference that the bible was there? yes! Is it a difference that has brought about peace, better moral standards, successful living, loving marriages etc.??? Well some may say yes, but the world at large is as filled with strife as ever. Even the alledged body of Christ is quarreling over petty differences and get into arguments easier than with the snap of my fingers. If it wasn't the christians taking the world it would have been the jews, the muslims, the hindus, the buddhists or somebody wholy different... Having been spread all around the world is no guarantee that the message is the only truth.
Don't you sometime question your minds and hearts ability to judge what is right? Isn't it possible that the bible is only made true in your belief in it? Imagine a world governed by other standards...
Why do this world have to perish in a great trial?
How come biblical God has made a path on which some of His loved ones can forever perish?
If they as some say perish at their own choice, then what is wrong with that choice as it is an exercise of God given free will?
If God really loves us all equally and really wants us by His side, isn't it possible that He has created a playsafe environment, where eternal damnation is nothing but an illusion, with the only objective to show us back to Him???
Trouble with this version is that Jesus alleged selfsacrific wasn't an atonement, but just a consequence of being at the wrong place at the wrong time, preaching the (in the governments/clergys eyes) wrong message... The idea that eternal damnation is an illusion or flat out a lie, would undermine much of what Jesus, Moses and the prophets said, probably most preachers today too.
What would still stand if this was true? Love would still stand, equality would still stand, justice would still stand... none of the qualities of a God who's nature is unfailing love would fall if the idea of eternal damnation of MANY people were removed from the preaching and teaching. Jesus would still be a great teacher, not necessarily correct in all his teaching, but nevertheless a person with great influence. Mother Teresa, Ghandi, Buddha, Lao T'zu, Confucius, Thomas Aquinas, Abraham, Muhammad, Jesus and the list goes on... are all good teachers. Each of them reflecting some of the eternal nature of God, as is everyone, but not in and if themselves holder of THE WHOLE TRUTH. Not even Jesus, although I believe him to be among the greatest.
When my teacher in school told me some fact about something I wouldn't take it just because he or she said so, but i would go and find out more of the subject to draw my own conclusion and so it is with every other teacher, including Jesus.
It is so easy to just copy someones beliefs, istead of finding your own and the greatest reason for human ego to work that way is: "running away from responsibility" it's so much easier to point your fingers at someone and say that it is their fault and not yours...
Well i could go on and on like this forever...
Well reading through my post above I may seem angry and at some level I am, but all I want is just to have a conversation about all this. I get so confined, so frustrated talking with people who are fanatic about something and when I get frustrated enough, I go and pick a fight (An intellectual fight that is)...
Personally im fanatic about not being fanatic, so I guess Im as good/bad as the next one...
Well... Thanx a thousand times for a third round in the ring with you
Love Martin
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"Did God really say..."
Posts: 14 | Registered: Mar 2003
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CloudHands
Community Member
Member # 1177
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posted
What I ment was that if infallability is to be obtained, some kind of dictation is needed as it is filtered through the mind of men. If it in any way is dictation it is overriding of free will. If you imagine God sitting and in any stretch is pulling the strings, so that the fallible pieces put together become infallible, then again free will is overidden. If this is the case then, if this is how God moves, He could just as well use those subtle ways to save all, never loosing any and still have us believe we used free will.
It is somewhat like in the spymovies where the hero is handed a glass of champagn by the femme fatal, drinking it and putting it aside on the night table, when they go to bed. Later the femme fatal extracts the heros fingerprints from the glass and use it to frame the hero later on in the movie.
Man is per biblical definition prone to mistakes and what should make those who wrote the bible any better? You say the Holy Spirit, I say what about all the people today that claims to have the Holy Spirit, both with and without the supposed gifts of the Holy Spirit, what about them? Even when they do something good, half of the christian world will stand on their neck and say it's the work of the devil. If that is how we are quarreling today, what was it like back then???
Even the holy men of that time would have been prone to mistakes in the eyes of God, maybe not as prone as joe and jack, but fallible nevertheless...
Isn't it obvious... To believe the bible, one has to believe that they can get inspired without making mistakes in the writing. I for one don't take anything for what im told it is and I want facts. One of the facts is that we make mistakes, so did the bible writers with or without the collaboration of Holy Spirit. Maybe they were not dictated, but we are if we follow the bible. Truly... is it free will, to follow a doctrine and a tradition handed down by fallible men??? Today in our churches, illumination of the scriptures is brought to us by among others our pastors, who spend a lot of time reading the bible and praying. No matter how much the pastor is guided by the Holy Spirit, he will be mixing his own interpretation unless it's a dictation from the Holy Spirit. A pastor is a person who has a lot of authority, maybe he doesn't want it to be this way, but nevertheless people tend to submit to prosperous people in suits, with charisma and appeal. When a pastor or preacher of any kind stands on the pulpit, he will be given authority, not necessarily by God, but from the people. The personal interpretation of the pastor will mold the interpretations of the congregation one way or the other and that is dictation although a very subtle one.
Another question I have already asked before is why on earth choose a book as the medium to convey the message of salvation. Why not just as God in the desert with Moses or Abraham (I don't remember and I haven't my bible nearby right now) say: here i present to you life and death, blessing or curse and I urge you now to choose life... Then He goes on about what curse is and what blessing is... remember? (Of course you do )
Why not just come down to me in a shape and character I can relate to without dropping dead and then present me with the choices?
That wouldn't rule out free will, but it would make sure I didn't pass my chance with God of the bible.
Why put up this drama spanning four millenia, just to show us His love by letting Himself incarnate, be beaten to a bloody pulp and then crucified, just to let another two millenia pass by without comming back as promised and still isn't.
Lets put on the point here:
I have a son, who I have raised by the highest standards, with the most love and with the most care I am able to give. I have been strict but fair, so that the intellect and heart became the controlling part of him and not instincts and natural urges. In spite of all my teachings, our close relationship and love for each other, he at some point finds that there is something out there called sex, drugs and rock'n'roll and it begins to look very interesting. My son then decide to go against me and tour with this band, some years later ending up as a drugaddict with several legal charges against him for possession of drugs, dealing with drugs, rape and even a single case of murder. To my chagrin I find that the leadsinger of the band that my son was in before he was put to jail, was my other long lost son Santana. Now they both were stuck in prison. They were both sentenced to death and now they are waiting for their sentence to be executed. At home I am angry, sad, crying, screaming and kicking, but then I remember an old part of the law that states that one life can be given in exchange for the other in these cases. I go down and exchange my life for my last and most beloved son. My other son I leave in prison because I hate him as he didn't just at first rebel against me, but in the end made my other son fall too, so even though he was raised in the same loving manner as my last son, he turned out to be even worse. Now having my son out of prison, I have my team of medics to scrape up the pieces of me and reconstruct me in a regrowth-vat and all is good again. Now I tell my son that he has to do what I did on a spiritual level the rest of his life or else........?
First of all if i raise my sons lovingly, the likelihood that they will turn bad is minimal even in these days and even if they did, I would never forsake them, never give up on them and never ever cut them from my love forever if they should choose to stay on a path that I didn't aprove of. When I imagine a God who is unfailing in love and righteousness, the least I can see Him do is to sentence anybody to any kind of eternal punishment. It seems too human, too shortsighted, too narrowminded for an almighty God to want to sentence anyone to eternal damnation or maybe just oblivion, none-existence. I am not to judge what is right for God of the bible, but i sincerely question His motives if he put people to torment in flames of hell forever on the grounds that they don't use their God given free will to do what He says in a book that is 2000+ years old.
It's absurd... who is this Satan, Lucifer, Beliar, Beelzebub etc. actually? Why did He fall, who are the angels, what are they? If God created the angels and us with the possibility to fall, to seperate us from Him, why punish us for doing so? Wouldn't it be possible that He created us like that because we have to have contrast to know light? If we don't get into the gutter, we would actually never appreciate heaven, is that possible, is that true?
If there is no doubt, there is no faith... Have christians blinded themselves, so that their love for suffering, via dolorosa and a God who in his righteous wrath is able to sentence anybody to eternal damnation, can be justified?
So many christians I know that aren't moving, aren't living, because they are waiting for the saviour.
So many christians I know talk about the excruciating pain Jesus went through for their sake and salvation, never to do anything else than donating when the collection bucket pass by.
So many christians I know preach and teach the gospel, but they get arrogant and cocky from living on the pulpit.
So many christians get stuck in their belief that they are right and "unsaved" people are wrong.
Arrogance and pride is prone to sneak up on people who claim to be holding truth.
well now I've been writing a lot and I really hope that your faith will put together the loose ends of this post as the meaning is consistent and coherent inside my head but a lot harder to get down on paper, well I thank you for your time and patience with me and my questions.
With much live and interest
Martin
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"Did God really say..."
Posts: 14 | Registered: Mar 2003
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becauseHElives
Advanced Member
Member # 87
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posted
Most important, Salvation is known only in a relationship with YESHUA, not in any religion of man. Baptist, Methodist, Catholic, Hindu, Buddhism.......
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By what standards does one find the bible true?
The early Church preached from the Old Testament.
When the Scriptures tell us in ....
ACTS 17:11
These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so. (they searched the Old Testament Scriptures)
1PET 1:10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace [that should come] unto you: (wise men are still searching and finding the GRACE OF YEHWEH)
The Old Testament Scriptures foretold all that was to take place, in the New Testament.
YESHUA fulfilled them all perfectly. That is how we today can place our faith in a Resurrected Saviour. The grave is empty.
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How is the bible proven true?
It is proven, not in dying for your faith, but in loving those that would kill you for your Faith!
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
Posts: 4578 | From: Southeast Texas | Registered: Jun 2002
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Gary
Advanced Member
Member # 523
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posted
Hello, Martin.
You have asked many hard questions. I am not a pastor, and I hope some pastor here on this board will tackle them for you. I'm only a layman, but your post intrigued me, and I'll try to answer a couple of your questions, or at least help a little.
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By what standards did, OT jews and NT christians measure what was true and what was not?
How did men come to have a ruling in what books to include and exclude?
I do know that the standard they used for the New Testament was whether or not the book or letter was written by one of the Apostles or a very close associate of the Apostles.
Of the gospels, Matthew and John were written by Apostles, Mark was written by John Mark, a very close associate of Peter, and who was also known to Paul very well. Luke was written by Luke, the physician who accompanied Paul on his journeys. Luke also wrote the Acts. The Apostle Paul wrote many of the letters, as well as the Apostles John and Peter. James and Jude were written by Jesus' half-brothers James and Jude, who were the sons of Mary and Joseph, (Jesus was Mary's son, but Joseph wasn't his father, the Holy Spirit was.)The Revelation was written by the Apostle John.
So you see, the New Testament was written by people who knew Jesus, who lived with Him for the three years of His ministry, who saw Him die, and more importantly, who saw Him alive again. We have the story of Jesus and His teaching from eyewitnesses, all written within the first generation after Jesus' life.
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Today christians can always refer to the bible, when in doubt, but back then they had only revelation to go by if they had to sort out what was truth and what was not, right?
Jesus and the other people of the New Testament times had what we call the Old Testament, what they called "Moses and the Prophets". The young boys attended Hebrew school from an early age, almost universally. They memorized the scriptures and learned from their rabbis how the scriptures were traditionally interpreted. These people had far greater knowledge of the scriptures than nearly anybody does today. They didn't have to rely on their own revelations and ideas. The scriptures were their compass.
We don't have new revelations today either, but we must walk in the Word. The Word is faithful and true. Don't look for new revelations, they won't be given; only illumination of His Word.
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If they were inspired by the Holy Spirit, they could have gotten it wrong as it was an inspiration and not a dictation
You don't really think the Holy Spirit would allow His message to the world, His message of salvation, to be corrupted, do you? God didn't just throw His inspiration out to the wind, to let it blow where it may. The Spirit moved in the hearts and minds of holy men, causing them to write His message as He revealed it to them. It wasn't dictation, but He somehow used imperfect, fallable men and their own imperfect, fallable personalities, to write His perfect, infallable Word.
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If He is who He is, then a snap of His fingers would be more than enough.
My study of the scriptures has convinced me that He is exactly who He always claimed to be. To quote the Nicene Creed: "...God of God, light of light, very God of very God..."
It's getting late, Martin, and I have to get up for work tomorrow morning, so I'll have to quit here.
But you need to seek out a pastor, either here or in your church. You have a lot to work through, good hard questions, for which you need good hard answers. The answers are there, in the Bible. Seek, and keep on seeking, and you shall find. Ask, and keep on asking, and it shall be given to you. Knock, and keep on knocking, and doors will be continually opened before you.
I will pray for you.
In Christ,
Gary
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"For the wages of sin is death,
but the free gift of God is eternal life
in Christ Jesus our Lord."
Romans 6:23 NASB
Posts: 436 | From: Mankato, Minnesota | Registered: Oct 2002
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CloudHands
Community Member
Member # 1177
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posted
How do you know that only life through Christ is eternal?
If it is because the bible says so, how do you prove the bible to be true?
Wouldn't there be a better way to inform man of salvation than through a book pieced together over aproximately 1600 years?
Why did man on several occasions submit the different holy scriptures of that time to editting, inclusion and exclusion, judging some to be apocrypha and others to be THE TRUTH?
By what criteria, other than those manmade, did people at that time judge the different texts?
Today christians can always refer to the bible, when in doubt, but back then they had only revelation to go by if they had to sort out what was truth and what was not, right?
By what standards did, OT jews and NT christians measure what was true and what was not?
How did men come to have a ruling in what books to include and exclude?
If they were inspired by the Holy Spirit, they could have gotten it wrong as it was an inspiration and not a dictation and if it was a dictation free will would have been put aside and that would supersede the creation of us in the first place. As I understand it God wants us to choose Him free willed, right?
According to Jesus and the law it seems as killing is prohibited as a means of achieving any kind of justice between men or for any other reason too I guess, right?
You can say all you want about the justice of God, but killing whole tribes, villages, cities and worlds just because the creation was sinning against Him, is just plain psychopathic. Especially when taken into consideration that He actually created us with all this potential for evil and sin...
You can say all you want about the love of God, but killing his only begotten son doesn't make such a good father to me. If He is who He is, then a snap of His fingers would be more than enough. But of course that would again supersede our free will and thus just make us puppets of God, right?
Well then my question is why does it specifically have to be a killing of something that justifies the alleged sins of mankind, why isn't it something less bloody? Violence begets violence and killing someone as bloody as it is described in the article mentioned in an above post, doesn't seem to me as a road to peace and love.
Why at all create an environment where sin has to be justified by killing. Wouldn't it be possible to an allmighty God to create an environment where realizing ones full potential for both love and hate is possible and encouraged without necessarily have to be thrown out of it, condemned etc.???
Why didn't God create a playsafe environment, where all options where accessible, without the danger of ever seperating us permanently from Him?
And even when seperated then He where able to just let us be outside for a while when we found that it was not as much fun to stay outside as it had first looked like, then let us in again?
I honestly, truth or not, refuse to submit to any deity that only gives me two choices: Heaven or Hell, eternal life in glory vs. eternal life in torment? Is this a choice at all? I put a gun to your head and say you have two choices, either you do what I tell you in this little book I've got or else I put a bullit in your brain... Doesnt make sense to me... this is not free will exercised.
Ok enough for now... Why don't you stop quoting scripture and give me some of your personal revelations something I can relate to, something that illustrates the free will that you supposedly should have been given by the Lord?
Don't you ever doubt that the path you have embarked on is false or at least not the only path???
Thanx a 1000 times for your time and putting up with my questions
with much love, curiosity and excitement
Martin
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"Did God really say..."
Posts: 14 | Registered: Mar 2003
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Caretaker
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http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/crucifix.htm
A Physician Analyzes the Crucifixion
A medical explanation of what Jesus endured
on the day He died by Dr. C. Truman Davis
Dr. C. Truman Davis is a graduate of the University of Tennessee College of Medicine. He is a practicing ophthalmologist, a pastor, and author of a book about medicine and the Bible.
Several years ago I became interested in the physical aspects of the passion, or suffering, of Jesus Christ when I read an account of the crucifixion in Jim Bishop's book, The Day Christ Died. I suddenly realized that I had taken the crucifixion more or less for granted all these years -- that I had grown callous to its horror by a too-easy familiarity with the grim details. It finally occurred to me that, as a physician, I did not even know the actual immediate cause of Christ's death. The gospel writers do not help much on this point. Since crucifixion and scourging were so common during their lifetimes, they undoubtedly considered a detailed description superfluous. For that reason we have only the concise words of the evangelists: "Pilate, having scourged Jesus, delivered Him to them to be crucified ... and they crucified Him."
Despite the gospel accounts' silence on the details of Christ's crucifixion, many have looked into this subject in the past. In my personal study of the event from a medical viewpoint, I am indebted especially to Dr. Pierre Barbet, a French surgeon who did exhaustive historical and experimental research and wrote extensively on the topic.
An attempt to examine the infinite psychic and spiritual suffering of the Incarnate God in atonement for the sins of fallen man is beyond the scope of this article. However, the physiological and anatomical aspects of our Lord's passion we can examine in some detail. What did the body of Jesus of Nazareth actually endure during those hours of torture?
Death
The common method of ending a crucifixion was by crurifracture, the breaking of the bones of the leg. This prevented the victim from pushing himself upward; the tension could not be relieved from the muscles of the chest, and rapid suffocation occurred. The legs of the two thieves were broken, but when the soldiers approached Jesus, they saw that this was unnecessary.
Apparently, to make doubly sure of death, the legionnaire drove his lance between the ribs, upward through the pericardium and into the heart. John 19:34 states, "And immediately there came out blood and water." Thus there was an escape of watery fluid from the sac surrounding the heart and the blood of the interior of the heart. This is rather conclusive post-mortem evidence that Jesus died, not the usual crucifixion death by suffocation, but of heart failure due to shock and constriction of the heart by fluid in the pericardium.
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1 Corinthians 1:
18: For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
19: For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.
20: Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?
21: For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
22: For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:
23: But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
24: But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.
25: Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
John 3:
14: And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16: For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17: For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18: He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19: And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20: For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
21: But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.
Saul was an up and coming Pharisee, who rejected the message from the followers of Jesus. He watched and supported the execution of a follower named Stephen, even watching the outer robes of those who gathered up the stones and beat Stephen into a bloody pulp.
Saul went forth, leading a possie to attack, imprison, and kill any follower of Jesus, and keep the new cult from spreading.
Acts 8:
1: And Saul was consenting unto his death. And at that time there was a great persecution against the church which was at Jerusalem; and they were all scattered abroad throughout the regions of Judaea and Samaria, except the apostles.
2: And devout men carried Stephen to his burial, and made great lamentation over him.
3: As for Saul, he made havock of the church, entering into every house, and haling men and women committed them to prison.
4: Therefore they that were scattered abroad went every where preaching the word.
As they band headed to Damascus Saul was ambushed:
Acts 9:
1: And Saul, yet breathing out threatenings and slaughter against the disciples of the Lord, went unto the high priest,
2: And desired of him letters to Damascus to the synagogues, that if he found any of this way, whether they were men or women, he might bring them bound unto Jerusalem.
3: And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven:
4: And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?
5: And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.
6: And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do.
7: And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man.
Saul met the resurrected Lord on the Damascus road, and in his conversion he went suddenly from being a man of distinction, and man of power and prestige, to a man hated and despised, but the reality of truly coming face to face with God wrought great changes.
Acts 9:
17: And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost.
18: And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, and arose, and was baptized.
19: And when he had received meat, he was strengthened. Then was Saul certain days with the disciples which were at Damascus.
20: And straightway he preached Christ in the synagogues, that he is the Son of God.
21: But all that heard him were amazed, and said; Is not this he that destroyed them which called on this name in Jerusalem, and came hither for that intent, that he might bring them bound unto the chief priests?
22: But Saul increased the more in strength, and confounded the Jews which dwelt at Damascus, proving that this is very Christ.
23: And after that many days were fulfilled, the Jews took counsel to kill him:
Paul had nothing to gain and everything to lose in his conversion. Yet in Paul as in all of the disciples, 3000 on the day of Pentecost, and literally millions down through the ages, in meeting our resurrected Lord lives are transformed, scales drop from blinded eyes, and chains of bondage are forever broken upon sin-captive hearts.
There were scoffers, mockers, despisers, down through the ages. They withstood Moses. They brought false gods into Israel, they rejected Jesus, mocked, and crucified Him, persecuted the early church, and today they seek to attack and undermine the Christian faith.
2 Timothy 3:
1: This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
2: For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
3: Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
4: Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
5: Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
6: For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,
7: Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.
8: Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith.
9: But they shall proceed no further: for their folly shall be manifest unto all men, as theirs also was.
10: But thou hast fully known my doctrine, manner of life, purpose, faith, longsuffering, charity, patience,
11: Persecutions, afflictions, which came unto me at Antioch, at Iconium, at Lystra; what persecutions I endured: but out of them all the Lord delivered me.
12: Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.
13: But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.
14: But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;
15: And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
16: All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
I hope that someday you will find the truth in Christ Jesus our Lord, for only in Christ is their life eternal, and entrance to Heaven, for He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and none come to the Father but through Christ.
We believe in the deity of Jesus Christ, that He was conceived of the Holy
Spirit, born of the Virgin Mary, lived a sinless life, and is fully God and fully
Man. We believe that our redemption has been accomplished solely by the
blood of our Lord Jesus Christ, who was made to be sin, and made a curse for
us, dying in our place that we might be forgiven. We believe that He died not
only for our sins, but also for the sins of the entire world. We believe that He
was raised from the dead in bodily form and that He ascended into heaven,
where He sits at the right hand of God the Father interceding for us.
We believe in the personal, bodily, imminent and pre-millennial return of our
Lord Jesus Christ for His Church and His subsequent millennial reign over
restored Israel and the kingdoms of the world. Luke 1:30-35; 2:7; John 1:1-4;
Romans 9-11; Philippians 2:5-11; Colossians 1:13-19; Hebrews 1:1-3; I Peter
3:18; I Corinthians 15:3-7; Hebrews 7:25; Acts 1:11, 15:14-17; I
Thessalonians 4:13-18; I John 2:2.
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A Servant of Christ,
Drew
1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..
Posts: 3978 | From: Council Grove, KS USA | Registered: Jun 2002
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CloudHands
Community Member
Member # 1177
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posted
In life He walked on water, healed the sick, snug out of killing mobs, calmed storms etc.
Why wouldn't he then be able to remove a measly 10 ton stone, just because he wasn't resurrected???
Haven't millions of lives been transformed through islam, through buddhism, through hinduism etc.??? Do you have evidence that their transformation in some way is less than the transformation through belief in Christ?
Does dying for a cause prove it to be true?
If it does, I bet islam is a very good and true religion...
Even roughneck mercenaries with many lives on their conscience are known to turn from the path of killing in the blink of an eye through some kind of revelation which is not necessarily from God of the bible, then how does Saul/Paul's transfrometion in any way verify the bible?
If Jesus as stated above would have no problem turning over a stone and leave, then why would the resurrection be the only explanation of Him shoving Himself to the disciples afterwards his "death"???
If Jesus knew that His suffering would bring about the salvation of every human being who have ever lived and ever will live, how come it was hard for Him to go to the cross. How can it be a sacrifice if He knew that He would live and actually never stop living through it all?
If He knew it was a victory that would set the whole world free, then why did He ask God (who christians believe is Himself) to let the cup pass Him by???
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"Did God really say..."
Posts: 14 | Registered: Mar 2003
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Caretaker
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Member # 36
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posted
My faith is based upon the resurrection, for it is the empty tomb, which is the pivotal point differentiating the Christian from all other religions, and establishes the credibility of the Word of God.
1) The resurrection was foretold by Jesus Christ. Matthew writes, “From that time Jesus Christ began to show His disciples that he must go to Jerusalem, and suffer many things from the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed and raised up on the third day”(Matt. 16:21) Though his followers did not understand what He was telling them at the time, they remembered and recorded His words.
2) The resurrection is the only reasonable explanation for the empty tomb. If Jesus had been only wounded he could not have removed the stone or gotten past the soldiers, likewise his disciples could not have gotten by either. His enemies would not have taken the body for it would have only encouraged belief in the resurrection.
3) The resurrection is the only reasonable explanation for the appearances of Jesus to His disciples. There were at least ten different occasions, and even eating and allowing them to touch him.
4) The resurrection is the only reason for the beginning of the Christian church. This was the foundation upon which the church was founded, and the primary subject of the first sermons.
5) The resurrection is the only reasonable explanation for the transformed lives of the disciples. They deserted Jesus during His trial and crucifixion. They remained in hiding, and it was only after the resurrection that they emerged. These same sheep hiding in the darkness emerged with power and boldness, in the very presence of their enemies, to turn the world upside down. Where once they had cowered in fear and confusion, and Peter had made his denial three times, they now endured horrid persecution and death, with faith unshaken.
The transformation in the life of Paul, can only be reasonably explained by the resurrection. For he was the lead persecutor of the early church. After meeting the resurrected Lord upon the Damascus road, Paul was transformed, and he went forth boldly proclaiming the faith, even unto a martyrs death.
6) Lastly I offer into evidence the transforming power of the resurrection, in the lives of countless millions through the centuries, who have received Christ. Each of us gives evidence in our testimony to the resurrection power of Jesus of Nazareth, to break the bonds of sin, and produce peace and righteousness in our lives.
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A Servant of Christ,
Drew
1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..
Posts: 3978 | From: Council Grove, KS USA | Registered: Jun 2002
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CloudHands
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Member # 1177
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posted
My questions are actually rather simple and goes something like this:
By what standards do one find the bible true?
Who says the bible is true and what criteria does it fulfill for you so that you believe in it?
Do you have any logical or natural explanation for your belief in the bible?
If faith does move mountains, if thoughts are creative, if we do have an influence on life here on earth, isn't it possible that the prophecies of the bible are comming true because we believe it to be so?
When you say that you have an experience of Jesus as your saviour, healer, friend etc. how does that manifest? Im thinking that the bible says something about Satan comming as an angel of light... Couldn't it by the book actually be Satan that a person is having a "relationship" with and not Jesus?
By what measure do one "judge", something: of God and something of the Devil?
If the answer is the gift of discerning of spirits, then by what standard do one find this to be the real thing and not some Satanic trickery?
If all this faith-stuff is a matter of relationship with God in ones heart, how can anyone even with very intimate knowledge of the bible ever really know if someone else is doing the "right" thing infront of God?
Besides the prophecies of the bible that I've heard so much about is comming true again and again, is there any other reason to believe in the "whole" book as infallible will of God for man?
Besides the prophecies it seems to me that the only argument for their faith that christians can pull out is: "because the bible says so..." and then they quote some part of the bible to illustrate their point. How can this ever be accepted as serious argumentation.
Well it may seem that I toss aside a great deal of the bible when I say: "Besides the prophecies..." but as I see it faith do move mountains and thought is creative and prophecies can very well come true just because someone believes it enough. Including all the pointers to Jesus in the OT.
well just my two cents for the day...
Thank you for your time
Love Martin
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"Did God really say..."
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