|
Author
|
Topic: 'A Remnant will be Saved.'
|
Carol Swenson
Admin
Member # 6929
|
posted
And in you all the families of the earth will be blessed." Genesis 12:3
 The Hebrew Prophets
and The Restoration of Israel
The Valley of Dry Bones Shall Live
“The hand of the LORD was upon me, and carried me out in the spirit of the LORD, and set me down in the midst of the valley which was full of bones…there were very many in the open valley; and, lo, they were very dry…Son of man, can these bones live? And I answered, O Lord GOD, thou knowest.” Ezekiel 37:1.
About 500 years after Abraham, God created a second covenant. God gave the law of Moses to the children of Israel. The law was a covenant and reflected God’s holiness. This time the covenant was conditional and based upon the Jewish people keeping the requirements of the law. The law did not replace the everlasting covenant with Abraham; however, the law was conditional as the following verse shows:
“Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine.” Exodus 19:5.
If the Jewish people obeyed the laws, God would bless them above all people; however, if they disobeyed He would punish them. One of the punishments was the destruction of the nation and the dispersion of the people into all the world. Either way, the authority of God’s word was witnessed through Israel being blessed above all nations or cursed, and dispersed into the world.
Israel now reflected God’s holy name. The entire world could witness God’s awesome power working through His people Israel. God linked His plan for the redemption of mankind directly to the descendants of Abraham. King Messiah, the Lord Jesus was a son of Abraham.
In the second covenant, the blessings or the curses depended on the actions of the nation of Israel. God warned that if the people disobeyed His covenant, He would drive them off the land and into the nations. He would destroy Israel because of sin and rebellion against His word. Israel did break the covenant, and exactly as God had warned, the nation was destroyed and the people were driven into the all the countries of the world.
God sent prophet after prophet to warn Israel of the coming judgment. Ancient Israel rejected the prophets’ warnings and based on the second covenant, the nation was destroyed. God kept His word. Actually the nation was destroyed twice. The first destruction, by the Babylonians, began in 586 BC and lasted 70 years. The second began in 70 AD and lasted until 1967 when Jerusalem was once again the unified capital of Israel.
The following are some of the Scriptures which warned Israel of the dispersion into the nations:
“And I will bring the land into desolation: and your enemies which dwell therein shall be astonished at it. And I will scatter you among the heathen, and will draw out a sword after you: and your land shall be desolate, and your cities waste.” Leviticus 26:32,33.
“And the LORD shall scatter thee among all people, from the one end of the earth even unto the other; and there thou shalt serve other gods, which neither thou nor thy fathers have known, even wood and stone.” Deuteronomy 28:64.
“And it shall come to pass, when all these things are come upon thee, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before thee, and thou shalt call them to mind among all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath driven thee…” Deuteronomy 30:1.
In 70 AD, the Roman army destroyed Israel, Jerusalem and the temple. This began the second dispersion; however, this time it was into all the world. God fulfilled His covenant, under the law of Moses with Israel, to the very letter. Remember, the dispersion was not according to the everlasting covenant with Abraham, but it was based on the covenant with Moses. The covenant with Abraham never changed. The dispersion of the Jews was an awesome witness to the authority of God’s word, the Bible.
The dispersion was only half the equation. The second part involves God’s promise to restore the people back to the land and literally have the nation of Israel reborn. The history of the nation of Israel shows the awesome power of God ruling over the affairs of the nations.
When studying the Bible about the history of Israel, one must understand that Jews are no different to any other people when it comes to sin. Without understanding the human heart, it could be very easy to condemn Israel for failing God and rebelling against Him. If God had chosen any other people to work through, the result would have been the same.
The sin nature is the same in the Jew as in others and any other people would have also failed. The prophet Jeremiah speaks about the sin nature and states, “The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?”
Although Israel broke the second covenant of the law, God said that He would never completely reject the nation. He would always honor the everlasting covenant with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and their descendants. Because of this everlasting covenant, He would one day restore the nation of Israel and bring the people back into the land.
Modern Israel exists because of the everlasting covenant. The destruction of Israel and the restoration of the nation, 1900 years later, is an awesome witness to the authority of the Bible as the word of God.
The Bible, with great clarity, states that Israel would one day be reborn, and this would happen because of the everlasting covenant with Abraham. Let us look at some of these verses:
“Then will I remember my covenant with Jacob, and also my covenant with Isaac, and also my covenant with Abraham will I remember; and I will remember the land.
The land also shall be left of them, and shall enjoy her sabbaths, while she lieth desolate without them: and they shall accept of the punishment of their iniquity: because, even because they despised my judgments, and because their soul abhorred my statutes.
And yet for all that, when they be in the land of their enemies, I will not cast them away, neither will I abhor them, to destroy them utterly, and to break my covenant with them: for I am the LORD their God.
But I will for their sakes remember the covenant of their ancestors, whom I brought forth out of the land of Egypt in the sight of the heathen, that I might be their God: I am the LORD.” Leviticus 26:42-45.
The Ancient Prophets Speak to Us Today
Prophet after prophet in the Bible tells of the restoration of Israel after the dispersion into all the world. God sent prophets to Israel to warn them of the coming judgment on the nation. But, these same prophets also comforted the Jewish people by telling them of the restoration. The prophets also spoke of the coming of the Messiah and the golden age of His rule on earth; however, before the rule of the Messiah, God had to restore the nation.
The theme of the dispersion and restoration of Israel is one of the major focuses in the Bible. There is verse after verse in the Bible about the rebirth of Israel. The prophets Ezekiel and Zechariah devote entire chapters to this theme. The prophecy about the rebirth of Israel from a world-wide dispersion is not a footnote in the Bible. It is written on page after page by prophet after prophet for all to clearly see.
When the prophets spoke about the rebirth of Israel, the everlasting covenant with Abraham was their foundation. This was the foundation of the promise. This covenant was everlasting and not based on performance of the Jewish people. Let us look at what some of these ancient prophets wrote that has such a clear message for today.
Isaiah
About 750 BC, the prophet Isaiah wrote about the rebirth of Israel after a second world-wide dispersion. The first dispersion occurred when King Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon took Israel captive around 600 BC. This captivity was limited to Babylon and the Jews returned to their land 70 years later.
Isaiah prophesied that their return from a world-wide dispersion would be far greater than the one from Babylon. This restoration would bring Jews back from the ends of the earth and this has happened in our lifetime. The Jewish people have now come back to Israel literally from the east, west, north, and south. They have returned from the ends of the earth or as Isaiah calls it the “islands of the sea.”
“And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea.” Isaiah 11:11.
“Fear not: for I am with thee: I will bring thy seed from the east, and gather thee from the west; I will say to the north, Give up; and to the south, Keep not back: bring my sons from far, and my daughters from the ends of the earth.” Isaiah 43:5,6.
Jeremiah
Jeremiah also prophesied at the time of this first dispersion about 600 BC. He warned the people not only of the coming Babylonian captivity but of a greater dispersion into all the world. He prophesied that the people would return from both captivities.
Jeremiah, like all the prophets, told of the rebirth of the nation. Jeremiah states that God, by His sovereign will, caused the Jews to return. God scattered the Jews and one day He would restore them to the land. He would be directly involved in leading Jews back to Israel. This regathering of the people was a warning to the nations. Remember, the prophet wrote these verses 2600 years ago.
“Behold, I will bring them from the north country, and gather them from the coasts of the earth, and with them the blind and the lame, the woman with child and her that travaileth with child together: a great company shall return thither.
They shall come with weeping, and with supplications will I lead them: I will cause them to walk by the rivers of waters in a straight way, wherein they shall not stumble: for I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is my firstborn.
Hear the word of the LORD, O ye nations, and declare it in the isles afar off, and say, He that scattered Israel will gather him, and keep him, as a shepherd doth his flock.” Jeremiah 31:8-10.
Ezekiel
The prophet Ezekiel lived and wrote during the first exile about 570 BC. King Nebuchadnezzar took him captive to Babylon. While in Babylon, Ezekiel wrote incredibly detailed prophecies about the worldwide dispersion and rebirth of the nation of Israel. In beautifully written language with awesome imagery, the prophet gives a detailed look at God’s plan for Israel and the nations. Entire chapters of Ezekiel are devoted to the dispersion, restoration, and events that happen after the restoration.
Chapter 36 gives a panoramic view of what was going to happen to Israel. The prophet first mentions the destruction of the nation and the wasting of the land. He then follows with the promise that the land will once again be fruitful and inhabited. Ezekiel promises the Jewish people would again dwell in the land that God promised to their fathers. The fathers are Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob with whom God made the everlasting covenant. Ezekiel links the regathering of Jews from all the nations with the everlasting covenant. Let us look at some of these Scriptures from Ezekiel:
“And I scattered them among the heathen, and they were dispersed through the countries: according to their way and according to their doings I judged them.
For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.
And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.” Ezekiel 36:19,24,28
Ezekiel follows the general statements in chapter 36 about the regathering of the nation by a vivid picture in chapter 37. With some of the most graphic imagery in the entire Bible, Ezekiel describes the rebirth of the nation of Israel. He describes the nation as being a huge pile of dead dried bones lying in a valley.
When reading this chapter, the picture comes to mind of the prophet standing on a mountain ledge overlooking a large valley full of dead men’s dry bones. These bones represent the nation of Israel. God gives this picture to show the utter hopelessness of the nation. The nation was completely dead with no hope of ever living. What hope can dead men’s bones have for ever living again?
To the natural eye, Israel had no hope. The nation was destroyed and the people dispersed into all the world. The Romans destroyed the temple, their center of worship. The Hebrew language was gone. The nations persecuted and rejected them from country to country. The vision of the valley of the dead bones was a perfect picture of the nation of Israel after its destruction in 70 AD. There was no hope.
Ezekiel does not end with the hopelessness. He shows that by a sovereign act of God, the nation was to be reborn. The prophet watched as the nation came together in a piece-meal method. The first step is the bones coming together. The sinew holding the bones follows this. And, finally the flesh covers the bones. At the very end of this process, God put life in the body, and that life will happen at the second coming of the Lord Jesus.
God is working in the affairs of men and governments to resurrect the valley of dried bones into an exceedingly great army. This will happen according to the will of God in order to fulfill His covenant with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.
Let us look at the picture Ezekiel gives of the hopelessness of the nation of Israel ever being reborn.
“The hand of the LORD was upon me, and carried me out in the spirit of the LORD, and set me down in the midst of the valley which was full of bones, And caused me to pass by them round about: and, behold, there were very many in the open valley; and, lo, they were very dry.
And he said unto me, Son of man, can these bones live? And I answered, O Lord GOD, thou knowest. Again he said unto me, Prophesy upon these bones, and say unto them, O ye dry bones, hear the word of the LORD.
Thus saith the Lord GOD unto these bones; Behold, I will cause breath to enter into you, and ye shall live: And I will lay sinews upon you, and will bring up flesh upon you, and cover you with skin, and put breath in you, and ye shall live; and ye shall know that I am the LORD.
…there was a noise, and behold a shaking, and the bones came together, bone to his bone. And when I beheld, lo, the sinews and the flesh came up upon them, and the skin covered them above: but there was no breath in them.
Then said he unto me, Prophesy unto the wind, prophesy, son of man, and say to the wind, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe upon these slain, that they may live. So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived, and stood up upon their feet, an exceeding great army.” Ezekiel 37:1-9.
Immediately, after this powerful imagery of the nation, Ezekiel then goes on to explain the vision. There can be no doubt whatsoever as to the theme of this vision. The bones are the people of Israel without hope, and they are dead in the nations. The prophet calls the nations of the world Israel’s graves. The coming together of the bones into a body is the nation being reborn:
“Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts. Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.
And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land:
And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children for ever:” Ezekiel 37:11, 12, 21, 25.
Ezekiel connects the resurrection of the dead nation with God granting the land to Jacob. This is again a reference to the everlasting covenant. Time after time, over and over again, the Bible connects the dispersion and then rebirth of Israel to the everlasting covenant. The Bible is crystal clear that when the nation is reborn, it is because God honored His covenant. God is working in the affairs of men and nations to fulfill His ancient promise. God cannot lie, and His word cannot fail.
Zechariah
After the Jews returned to Israel from the Babylonian captivity, Zechariah was one of the prophets. He wrote about 520 BC. Zechariah is unique in that so much of his focus is on the city of Jerusalem. The other prophets talk about the land and some touch upon Jerusalem, but Zechariah gives many details about the city.
The prophet says that God chose Jerusalem for His purpose. Of all the cities of the world, God chose this city to work out His redemption plan for man, “And the LORD shall inherit Judah his portion in the holy land, and shall choose Jerusalem again. Zechariah 2:12.
The prophet Zechariah shows that Jerusalem, just as Israel, would be inhabited and restored. The people would come back to Jerusalem from all over the world.
“Thus saith the LORD of hosts; Behold, I will save my people from the east country, and from the west country; And I will bring them, and they shall dwell in the midst of Jerusalem: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God, in truth and in righteousness.” Zechariah 8:7, 8.
The city will be the center for the worship of God. All the peoples from the nations of the world come to Jerusalem. The city will be the center of world attention. Jerusalem is unlike any city in the world because it is the city God chose. This city will be once again the capital of a reborn nation of Israel.
“Yea, many people and strong nations shall come to seek the LORD of hosts in Jerusalem, and to pray before the LORD.” Zechariah 8:22.
“…and Jerusalem shall be inhabited again in her own place, even in Jerusalem.” Zechariah 12:6.
When Jews return from their world-wide dispersion and the nation is reborn, this is the final return. There will be no subsequent third or fourth dispersions into all the world. For this reason, the events that are unfolding before our very eyes are so significant. God is working in the affairs of the nations bringing Bible prophecy to a conclusion. Remember, when the Jews return from the worldwide dispersion, it is the final one.
The world is now entering into the end play of God’s prophetic plan for our age. The prophetic plan centers on the Day of the Lord. The prophets have already written the entire script. It is there for everyone to read, understand and believe. Remember, this is the final restoration of the Jews.
“And I will plant them upon their land, and they shall no more be pulled up out of their land which I have given them, saith the LORD thy God.” Amos 9:15.
http://defendproclaimthefaith.org/restoration_israel.htm
![[Prayer]](graemlins/prayer.gif) Romans 11:15
For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world,
what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?
Posts: 6787 | From: Colorado | Registered: Dec 2007
| IP: Logged | 
|
|
bar-net
unregistered
|
posted
Hi,
Anyone who holds to a pre-trib rapture lacks ALL credibility. It is a false doctrine! So what explains your lack of Biblical truth?
I am sure though, with honesty and sincere Bible study even you will come to a true knowledge of the end of days.
IP: Logged |
|
|
bar-net
unregistered
|
posted
Hi,
Thank you all for your 'opinions'. But I could care less!
Listen, I believe in the redemption of the remnant of Israel. So much so, that I lived in Israel from July 07 to Jan. 2012.
Each week I attended a Shabbat meal at a rabbi's house. He had some 100 guests. We were allowed to speak, as long as it was not political, or against Judaism. I spoke often, but in veiled terms. The Lord gave me certain things to say.
So you see, I am not unaware of Jews or Israel. In fact, I know the conflict up close. I was hit in the head by a rock thrown by a young Arab. I shed blood!
I love God's remnant!
IP: Logged |
|
|
Caretaker
Advanced Member
Member # 36
|
posted
quote:
Originally posted by bar-net:
Hi,
Funny, I thought you would respond so. But listen, the mystery Paul spoke of is the same Rev 10:7 refers to.
But listen, show me your SCRIPTURE which supports your false teaching about a pre-trib rapture.
I do keep bring it up because it relates to your false teaching of a 'double covenant' - that God must get the 'gentile church' out of the way so He can focus on Israel.
There is absolutely nothing you post which will be received as you have zero credibility, being so in error in your personal/private interpretation. You parcel specific Jewish words such as in your reference to Psalm 119, yet you quote from the NIV which is not a word for word translation, but rather a dynamic equivalency.
Your private interpretation does an injustice to the whole context of God's Word and has filled your understanding with error specifically in regards to the Jews and eschatology. God is NOT DONE with Israel/Jacob as His Word declares, and your poor attempts to fritter away the appropriate yet to be fulfilled prophecies does a terrible injustice to the Word and to Israel/Jacob, who will come to recognize Jesus as their Messiah, from the midst of their Time of Jacob's Trouble, yet to come.
--------------------
A Servant of Christ,
Drew
1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..
Posts: 3978 | From: Council Grove, KS USA | Registered: Jun 2002
| IP: Logged |
|
|
WildB
Moderator
Member # 2917
|
posted
Originally posted by bar-net:
"Do you believe 119? Do you believe me? 'Perhaps', you may say, 'you are wrong.'
God has written me into His psalm. Zayin is mine! I speak His word to you. Who will
hear!
God Bless!
Michael Barnett"
2 Peter 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
![[rapture]](graemlins/rapture.gif)
--------------------
That is all.....
Posts: 8775 | From: USA, MICHIGAN | Registered: Mar 2004
| IP: Logged |
|
|
Carol Swenson
Admin
Member # 6929
|
posted
You already posted the two Rapture verses. But you misinterpreted them. None of us have ever said it is a "gentile church" because there is neither Jew nor Gentile in the body of Christ, the Church, but all are one in Him. You don't read what I post, so I will let someone else continue with you if they want.
Posts: 6787 | From: Colorado | Registered: Dec 2007
| IP: Logged |
|
|
bar-net
unregistered
|
posted
Hi,
Funny, I thought you would respond so. But listen, the mystery Paul spoke of is the same Rev 10:7 refers to.
But listen, show me your SCRIPTURE which supports your false teaching about a pre-trib rapture.
I do keep bring it up because it relates to your false teaching of a 'double covenant' - that God must get the 'gentile church' out of the way so He can focus on Israel.
IP: Logged |
|
|
Carol Swenson
Admin
Member # 6929
|
posted
The Word of God is most excellent, and I am truly glad you study it, although the NIV is not the best version. You should also use commentaries written by good Bible scholars. Teachers are one of the gifts our Lord gave to us when He ascended to Heaven.
Those verses don't prove that the Rapture is at the 7th trumpet.
The last verse you quoted doesn't even apply to the Rapture. I posted information about the 7th trumpet judgment of Revelation in my last post.
Honestly, I don't even care if you believe the pre-Tribulation Rapture or not. I don't know why you keep bringing it up, but to think that the trumpet of such a serious judgment is the Rapture trumpet seems very odd to me.
__________________________________________________
A problem occurs because some of those who believe in the Mid-Tribulation Rapture wrongly teach that the last trump (the trump of God) that removes the Church from the earth at the Rapture is the same as the seventh trumpet blown by the seventh angel in the Book of Revelation (Rev. 11:15-19). Trumpets are mentioned almost 100 times in the Bible. But in those more than 100 verses there are no verses that say the last trump (the trump of God) is the same as the seventh trumpet that will be blown by the seventh angel during the Tribulation Period. Those who say the last trump (the trump of God) is the same as the seventh trumpet that will be blown by the seventh angel during the Tribulation Period just assume that they are the same. It’s their interpretation or probably something that they have heard others say. But it is not a verse of Scripture in the Bible.
THERE ARE DIFFERENCES BETWEEN THE LAST TRUMP (THE TRUMP OF GOD) AND THE SEVENTH TRUMPET IN REVELATION
1) It is clear that the last trump (the trump of God) is about believers. More specifically, it is about the removal of believers (the Church) from the earth in the Rapture (I Thess. 4:13-18; I Cor. 15:51-53). The last trump on the trump of God will sound, the deceased believers will be raised (like Jesus, Lazarus and the Old Testament saints who were dead, buried and raised from the dead), the living believers will be changed (like Enoch and Elijah) and the entire Church will be caught up (or Raptured) into heaven at the same time. But the passage about the seventh trumpet is about unbelievers. More specifically, it is about those who are not in the Church (Rev. 11:15-19). When the angel blows the seventh trumpet it will cause anger on earth, lightening, thunder, an earthquake, great hail, and it will lead to the seven last plagues.
2) The last trump (the trump of God) will be an act of grace. It will call the undeserving Church into heaven. But the trumpet blown by the seventh angel during the Tribulation Period will be an act of wrath. It will signal divine judgment upon those on earth.
3) The last trump (the trump of God) will probably be blown by God (I Thess. 4:16). The seventh trumpet will be blown by the seventh angel (Rev. 11:15).
4) Concerning the events that will take place at the last trump (the trump of God), God tells the Church to “Comfort one another with these words” (I Thess. 4:18). Concerning the sounding of the seventh trumpet by the seventh angel, God said, “the nations will be angry” (Rev. 11:18). They will be angry because the first trumpet will be followed by the destruction of one-third of the plants (Rev. 8:7); the second trumpet will be followed by the destruction of one-third of the sea creatures and ships (Rev. 8:8-9); the third trumpet will be followed by the destruction of one-third of the fresh water (Rev. 8:10-11); the fourth trumpet will be followed by changes in one-third of the sun, moon and stars (Rev. 8:12); the fifth trumpet will be followed by the release of demon possessed locusts (Rev. 9:1-12); the sixth trumpet will be followed by the death of one-third of those on earth (Rev. 9:13-21); and the seventh trumpet will be followed by the seven vial judgments (Rev. 11:15-12:12). This is a far cry from the comforting message of the last trump (the trump of God).
5) When the last trump (the trump of God) sounds Jesus won’t be in heaven. Jesus will descend with a shout and remain in the clouds above the earth to meet the Church (I Thess. 4:16-17). There’s no mention of Jesus descending or shouting or remaining in the clouds when the seventh angel blows the seventh trumpet during the Tribulation Period. Jesus will probably still be on the throne in heaven.
6) The voice of God is not the sound of a trumpet blown by an angel (Rev. 11:15). It is a voice that sounds like a trumpet (Rev. 1:10; 4:10). There is a difference between the sound of a trumpet and a voice that sounds like a trumpet.
http://www.raptureready.com/featured/duck/dd11.html
Posts: 6787 | From: Colorado | Registered: Dec 2007
| IP: Logged |
|
|
bar-net
unregistered
|
posted
Hi,
Ask and you shall receive:
1 Thessalonians 4:15-18
New International Version (NIV)
15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18 Therefore encourage one another with these words.
1 Corinthians 15:50-55
New International Version (NIV)
50 I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54 When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”[a]
55 “Where, O death, is your victory?
Where, O death, is your sting?”[b]
Revelation 10:7
New International Version (NIV)
7 But in the days when the seventh angel is about to sound his trumpet, the mystery of God will be accomplished, just as he announced to his servants the prophets.”
I get what I know from God and His word. How bout you?
IP: Logged |
|
|
Carol Swenson
Admin
Member # 6929
|
posted
Maybe you don't bother to actually read what I post for you, but I hope at least innocent readers will benefit and not unknowingly wander down the strange path you're on.
quote:
First, I have never Israel will not be restored.
What did you mean to say?
quote:
Second, this present Jewish State is not God's restoration.
Of course not. We keep telling you over and over that Israel will be restored during the Millennial Kingdom.
quote:
Israel, as the 7th head, rose from the sea - of the nations. And it is through this restored head the Jewish AC will come.
bar-net, where are you learning such things? Please tell me, what is the source of your information? Will the Antichrist be of Jewish descent?
No. There is no biblical proof that he is a Jew and many base that idea on Daniel 11:37 where the King James version reads, "Neither shall he regard the God of fathers," thus referring it to Israel's one God. But the new translations have corrected that version to the "gods" of his fathers referring to the Roman pantheon of many gods. The Antichrist comes out of the final Roman type of government (Daniel 7:23, Revelation17). And his type would be that of Antiochus Epiphanes who was of Greco-Syrian Descent. Antiochus Epiphanes tried to grecianize the Jews in Jerusalem and the Jewish Maccabees fought against his rule.
Some people think the Antichrist will be Jewish because the Jews would not accept a Messiah who was not Jewish. But there is evidence that they are even at this time willing to accept a non-Jewish Messiah.
quote:
I can gvie you three clear Scripture which says the resurrection and catching up are at the 7th Trumpet.
You keep saying that, but you never actually do it. There is nothing to indicate that the Rapture occurs at this point. This is what happens:
THE SEVENTH TRUMPET
Revelation 10:4-7 (NASB)
4 When the seven peals of thunder had spoken, I was about to write; and I heard a voice from heaven saying, "Seal up the things which the seven peals of thunder have spoken and do not write them." 5 Then the angel whom I saw standing on the sea and on the land lifted up his right hand to heaven, 6 and swore by Him who lives forever and ever, WHO CREATED HEAVEN AND THE THINGS IN IT, AND THE EARTH AND THE THINGS IN IT, AND THE SEA AND THE THINGS IN IT, that there will be delay no longer, 7 but in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he is about to sound, then the mystery of God is finished, as He preached to His servants the prophets.
Did God preach the Rapture to His servants the prophets? No, of course not.
The interlude between the sixth and seventh Trumpets is past and we have arrived at what, unquestionably, will be the most epic and dramatic turn in end-time world history namely, the sounding of the Seventh Trumpet. In chapter 10, the mighty angel said that in the days of the sounding of the seventh Trumpet there would be no further delay but, in those days, he said, the mystery of God will be finished, as He has declared to His servants, the prophets.
All of Heaven will have been holding its breath for the momentous event of the sounding of the seventh Trumpet for its blast will be the sound of ultimate victory. It signals that the time for the personal intervention by the Lord Jesus Christ, Himself, has now come. The blowing of the seventh Trumpet will begin an unstoppable and methodical march of God to set all things straight in Heaven and Earth, culminating in the complete and irrefutable revelation of who Jesus Christ truly is. When the seventh angel blows his trumpet, all the prayers and promises of all the centuries begin to be answered.
Recall that the martyred saints in heaven were concerned about God's seeming delay in avenging their deaths (Rev. 6:10-11). "How long, O Lord, how long?" has been the cry of God's suffering people from age to age. God's seeming delay in fulfilling His promises has given the scoffers opportunity to deny God's Word and question His sincerity (see 2 Peter 3). God's Word is true and His timing, perfect. This means comfort to saints—but judgment to sinners.
In the Bible, a mystery is a "sacred secret" a truth hidden to those outside but revealed to God's people by His Word (Matt. 13:10-12). The "mystery of God" has to do with the age-old problem of evil in the world and God's plan of redemption. Why is there both moral and natural evil in the world? Why doesn't God do something about it? Of course, the Christian knows that God did "do something about it" at Calvary when Jesus Christ was made sin and experienced divine wrath for a sinful world. We also know that God is permitting evil to increase until the world is ripe for judgment (2 Thes. 2:7ff; Rev. 14:14-20). Since God has already paid the price for sin, He is free to delay His judgment, and He cannot be accused of injustice or unconcern.
The signal for this mystery's completion is the sounding of the seventh trumpet (Rev. 11:14-19). The last half of the Tribulation begins when the angels start to pour out the bowls, in which "is filled up [completed] the wrath of God" (Rev. 15:1).
Immediately upon the blowing of the seventh Trumpet, Christ’s Bowl judgments will be poured out upon the earth in rapid procession. When these judgments have completed their purpose, Christ will descend to Earth, dispose of His enemies, and establish the Millennial Kingdom as the fulfillment of God's promises to Israel for a Messiah and a kingdom. When the Jews see Him, they will know Him and believe.
Not only Israel, but all the Earth will be cleansed, refreshed and restored. This will be the most glorious, most beautiful, most perfect 1000 years the world has ever known. All the saints from the beginning of time will live here with our Lord Jesus Christ, the King of Kings and the Lord of Lords.
No, there is no shame on us friend. But there is shame on those who despise our Lord Jesus Christ's brethren.
From the standpoint of the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God's choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers
Matthew 25:34-46 (NASB)
34 "Then the King will say to those on His right, 'Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35 ~'For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in; 36 naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.' 37 "Then the righteous will answer Him, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry, and feed You, or thirsty, and give You something to drink? 38 ~'And when did we see You a stranger, and invite You in, or naked, and clothe You? 39 ~'When did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?' 40 "The King will answer and say to them, 'Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me.'
41 "Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; 42 for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink; 43 I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.' 44 "Then they themselves also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?' 45 "Then He will answer them, 'Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.' 46 "These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
Posts: 6787 | From: Colorado | Registered: Dec 2007
| IP: Logged |
|
|
bar-net
unregistered
|
posted
Carol,
First, I have never Israel will not be restored. Second, this present Jewish State is not God's restoration.
In 70AD Israel received a 'deadly wound'. In 1948 this wound was superficially healed. Israel, as the 7th head, rose from the sea - of the nations. And it is through this restored head the Jewish AC will come.
Listen, show me ONE verse of Scripture which establishes your pre-trib rapture. I do not mean shadows, or types, things which can be interpreted different ways. I want a definitive verse or verses of SCRIPTURE. I can gvie you three clear Scripture which says the resurrection and catching up are at the 7th Trumpet. But you people, for the sake of your false theology, ignore these. Shame on you!
IP: Logged |
|
|
Carol Swenson
Admin
Member # 6929
|
posted
bar-net, it's going to take a lot of work to untangle the knots you've made here. We can take almost any doctrine, mix and match bits and pieces of it with a variety of verses and prophecies, and then present it as an exciting new revelation. But it isn't. It's a Frankenstein quilt, and it's unbiblical.
During this Church Age, the Age of Grace, all who worship our Lord Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior are made one in Him, neither Jew nor Gentile. But that does NOT mean that Israel will not be restored as a nation. There are about fifteen million Jews in the world who do not recognize Jesus as their Messiah yet. This age will end at the Rapture of the Church, then the Tribulation will come, and finally the Millennial Kingdom when God will fulfill His promises to Israel.
Okay, you're talking about when the kingdom became divided after Solomon died. The southern kingdom was Judah and the northern kingdom was Israel.
__________________________________________________
Where Are Israel and Judah Today?
by Wayne Blank
First, a little review of Bible History:
God changed Jacob's name to Israel (Genesis 32:28). Each of Israel's twelve sons (Reuben, Simeon, Levi, Judah, Dan, Naphtali, Gad, Asher, Issachar, Zebulun, Joseph and Benjamin) were founders of one of the tribes of Israel, the Israelites e.g. from Reuben came the Reubenites, from Levi came the Levites, from Judah came the "Jews." Although the tribe of Joseph was later divided into two tribes, Ephraim and Manasseh (Genesis 48:1-20), the number of tribes in the division of the land (see Tribal Lands) remained at twelve, because the tribe of Levi, as the priesthood, were distributed among the other tribes, and had no allotment of their own.
The Israelites were united as a single kingdom through the reigns of David and Solomon, but after Solomon's death they split into two completely separate and independent kingdoms - the southern kingdom of "Judah," consisting of the tribes of Judah and Benjamin (1 Kings 12:21) with their capital at Jerusalem, and the northern kingdom of "Israel," consisting of the other ten tribes, with their capital up in Samaria. Israel and Judah were never united again (see Kings of Israel and Judah). Surprisingly, they even fought wars against each other from time to time (see Jews At War With Israel). A very important fact that many do not realize is that Judah, that is, the Jewish people of today, are only one of the tribes of Israel - while all Jews are Israelites, not all Israelites are Jews.
Because of their forsaking of Him, God permitted the two kingdoms to be destroyed. First, the northern kingdom of Israel was gradually conquered by the Assyrians (see Ancient Empires - Assyria), and by 721 B.C. they had practically all been taken into exile to Assyria (2 Kings 17:1-23). The vast majority of them never returned, and have become known as the "Lost Ten Tribes of Israel."
Then, about 135 years later, in 586 B.C., the southern kingdom of Judah was conquered by the Babylonians (see Why Babylon?), and the Jews were taken into captivity to Babylon. The original Temple of God in Jerusalem was destroyed at that time (see Temples and Temple Mount Treasures). The people of the southern kingdom of Judah however did return after the Babylonians fell to the Persians (see Ancient Empires - Persia), and their descendants have become the Jewish people of today.
An important point to realize here is that since that return, the religious practices of the Jewish people have evolved into something somewhat different than their ancestors practiced in earlier times. Many traditions and customs were gradually added by authorities such as the Pharisees and Sadducees. By the time of Jesus Christ, when the Jewish authorities accused The Lord of breaking the law, much of which was merely their law, not God's, He rebuked His own people for worshiping God according to their own traditions:
"And He said to them, "Well did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written, 'This people honors Me with their lips, but their heart is far from Me; in vain do they worship Me, teaching as doctrines the precepts of men.' You leave the commandment of God, and hold fast the tradition of men." And He said to them, "You have a fine way of rejecting the commandment of God, in order to keep your tradition!" (Mark 7:6-9 RSV)
The Lord's condemnation was aimed at their religious leadership of that time, not at the people themselves, since most of the first Christians, including Jesus Himself, were Jews.
What Is Anglo-Israelism?
Put most simply, Anglo-Israelism is a theory that explains what happened to the "Lost Ten Tribes" of Israel, where they went, what they did, and who their descendants are today.
A Northward Migration
According to the theory of Anglo-Israelism, also known as British-Israelism, after the Assyrian kingdom was devastated by the Babylonians, the people of the "Lost Ten Tribes" were freed, and most migrated north and northwestward into Europe where they settled and founded the countries known today as Britain, the Netherlands, Belgium, Sweden, (northern) France, (northern) Germany, Switzerland, Denmark, Norway, Finland, among a possible few others. Many of those in Britain, much later in history, continued their migration and founded what is today the United States, Canada, Australia and New Zealand. As far as Bible prophecy is concerned, according to Anglo-Israelism, these nations are Israel, while the Jewish people are Judah.
Ephraim and Manasseh
Ephraim and Manasseh were the sons of Joseph, who although actually Israel's grandsons, were adopted by Israel and established on an equal-footing as tribes with their uncles. According to prophecy, Manasseh would become a great single, or independent, nation, while Ephraim would become a great group of nations. According to Anglo-Israelism, the United States of America is Manasseh, while Britain, Canada, Australia, New Zealand and the rest of the Commonwealth are Ephraim. Anglo-Israelists believe that the wealth and power of these nations is due directly to the Biblical blessings that were bestowed upon Ephraim and Manasseh.
Anglo-Israelists also believe that, although all of the sons of King Zedekiah were killed, the throne of David survived the destruction by the Babylonians through the king's daughters (Jeremiah 43:4-7) who eventually made their way to the British Isles with the prophet Jeremiah. They also believe that the Stone of Scone, which Britain has used in the coronation ceremonies of kings and queens for centuries (it was just recently returned to Scotland, however it will still be made available for future coronations), was also used when David was made king. Further, according to the theory, Britain's Queen Elizabeth is today the current holder of that throne of David, and that she, or her successors, will continue to possess it until the ultimate heir, Jesus Christ, returns to claim it.
http://www.keyway.ca/htm2001/20010604.htm
__________________________________________________
Anglo-Israelism is just a theory. Herbert W. Armstrong, founder of the Worldwide Church of God, who also claimed to be a descendant of King David, widely taught Anglo-Israelism with his The United States and Britain In Prophecy. With the power of modern communications at his disposal, Armstrong became so well known for the theory that some actually began referring to Anglo-Israelism as Armstrongism. Since his death in 1986, what remains of the WCG have abandoned their official belief in Anglo-Israelism, as well as many other of Armstrong's teachings, although his son, Garner Ted Armstrong, who left the WCG in 1978, has steadfastly continued to believe and teach it, as have thousands of other former members in various split-off church groups.
![[Bible]](graemlins/bible.gif)
You mentioned the prophets, and Hosea in particular.
Hosea 1:10-11 (NASB)
10 Yet the number of the sons of Israel Will be like the sand of the sea, Which cannot be measured or numbered; And in the place Where it is said to them, "You are not My people," It will be said to them, "You are the sons of the living God." 11 And the sons of Judah and the sons of Israel will be gathered together, And they will appoint for themselves one leader, And they will go up from the land, For great will be the day of Jezreel.
Here is where the grace of God comes in, for God will one day change these names. "Not my people" will become "My people," "unloved" will become "My loved one." These new names reflect the nation's new relationship to God, for all of them will be "the sons of the living God." Judah and Israel will unite as one nation and will submit to God's ruler, and the centuries' old division will be healed.
Instead of "Jezreel" being a place of slaughter and judgment, it will be a place of sowing where God will joyfully sow His people in their own land and cause them to prosper. Today, the Jews are sown throughout the Gentile world (Zech. 10:9), but one day God will plant them in their own land and restore to them their glory. As God promised to Abraham, Israel will become like the sand on the seashore. (Gen. 22:17).
When will these gracious promises be fulfilled for the Jews? When they recognize their Messiah at His return, trust Him, and experience His cleansing (Zech. 12:10-13:1). Then they will enter into their kingdom, and the promises of the prophets will be fulfilled (Isa. 11-12; 32; 35; Jer. 30-31; Ezek. 37; Amos 9:11-15).
Hosea 14:4-7 (NASB)
4 I will heal their apostasy, I will love them freely, For My anger has turned away from them. 5 I will be like the dew to Israel; He will blossom like the lily, And he will take root like the cedars of Lebanon. 6 His shoots will sprout, And his beauty will be like the olive tree And his fragrance like the cedars of Lebanon. 7 Those who live in his shadow Will again raise grain, And they will blossom like the vine. His renown will be like the wine of Lebanon.
You also mentioned Cyrus.
Cyrus is a king mentioned more than 30 times in the Bible and is identified as Cyrus the Great (also Cyrus II or Cyrus the Elder) who reigned over Persia between 539—530 BC. This pagan king is important in Jewish history because it was under his rule that Jews were first allowed to return to Israel after 70 years of captivity.
In one of the most amazing prophecies of the Bible, Isaiah predicts Cyrus’ decree to free the Jews. One hundred fifty years before Cyrus lived, the prophet calls him by name and gives details of Cyrus’ benevolence to the Jews: “This is what the Lord says to his anointed, to Cyrus, whose right hand I take hold of to subdue nations before him . . . ‘I summon you by name and bestow on you a title of honor, though you do not acknowledge me’” (Isaiah 45:1, 4; see also 41:2-25; 42:6). Evincing His sovereignty over all nations, God says of Cyrus, “He is my shepherd and will accomplish all that I please” (Isaiah 44:28).
In addition to the prophets and the teachings of Paul, there are also the Olivet Discourse and the Book of Revelation to support the restoration of Israel.
The Olivet Discourse is the name given to the orderly and extended teaching given by Jesus Christ on the Mount of Olives. His subject is the end times. This discourse is recorded in Matthew 24:1 – 25:46. Parallel passages are found in Mark 13:1-37 and Luke 21:5-36. The record in Matthew is the most extensive, so reference here will be to Matthew's Gospel.
It is important to recognize that Jesus’ teaching in this discourse is in reference to Israel and not the Church. Christ was speaking of God’s future program for Israel. Other passages to consider when studying the Olivet Discourse are Daniel 9:24-27 and Revelation 6:1 – 19:21, which refer to the future seven-year period called the tribulation. God’s program for the Church concludes with the rapture, which is not taught in the Olivet Discourse. The rapture of the Church is found in John 14:1-4; 1 Corinthians 15:51-52; and 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18.
In summary, everything points to the restoration of Israel during the Millennial Kingdom that will be established after the Tribulation. Man made theories, like Anglo-Israelism, do not replace Bible prophecy, and are not the fulfillment of Bible prophecy.
Posts: 6787 | From: Colorado | Registered: Dec 2007
| IP: Logged |
|
|
WildB
Moderator
Member # 2917
|
posted
quote:
Originally posted by bar-net:
I do not believe in 'Replacement', but rather in 'Fullness'. And Christ is the fullness. Israel was to find fullness by faith in Christ. And in this, they became the Body of Christ, not National Israel redeemed.
Wow how did that happen when it was a SECRET?
Romans 16:25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:
27 To God only wise, be glory through Jesus Christ for ever. Amen.
![[cool_shades]](graemlins/cool_shades.gif)
--------------------
That is all.....
Posts: 8775 | From: USA, MICHIGAN | Registered: Mar 2004
| IP: Logged |
|
|
bar-net
unregistered
|
posted
Thanks for the Input!
Carol, I advise you to read, not only all the prophets, but Hosea in particular. The distinction between Judah and Israel is made very clear.
I do not believe in 'Replacement', but rather in 'Fullness'. And Christ is the fullness. Israel was to find fullness by faith in Christ. And in this, they became the Body of Christ, not National Israel redeemed.
Christ fulfilled the Law in all respects by His life. But by His death and resurrection He established a New Covenant. And every Jew that believed was set free of the bondage that was the Law. By believing a Jew died to his flesh, and became a new creation in Christ. He became born again.
But National Israel, that is, most of the Jews of that day, were cast out of God's house - Temple destroyed - Jerusalem destroyed - Jews scattered - all the curses of Deut.32 came upon them.
God's witness IS the Church, to Jew and Gentile. Cyrus was a type of Christ. He did in the physical what Christ did in the spiritual. Likewise, the Church is as Cyrus today to proclaim Christ to Jew and Gentile.
There is no 'double covenant' - one for National Israel and another for the so-called 'gentile church'. In Christ the middle wall of partition is broken down, and there is neither Jew nor Gentile.
There is NO pre-trib rapture. This is false doctrine! The Church will remain into the 70th as God's witness. At the 7th Trumpet, before the true wrath of God is poured out, the resurrection and catching up occurs.
IP: Logged |
|
|
Carol Swenson
Admin
Member # 6929
|
posted
Paul had argued in Romans 8 that the believer is secure in Jesus Christ and that God's election would stand (Rom. 8:28-30). But someone might ask, "What about the Jews? They were chosen by God, and yet now you tell us they are set aside and God is building His church. Did God fail to keep His promises to Israel?" In other words, the very character of God was at stake. If God was not faithful to the Jews, how do we know He will be faithful to the church?
The emphasis in Romans 9 is on Israel's past election, in Romans 10 on Israel's present rejection, and in Romans 11 on Israel's future restoration. Israel is the only nation in the world with a complete history—past, present, and future. In Romans 9, Paul defended the character of God by showing that Israel's past history actually magnified the attributes of God. He specifically named four attributes of God: His faithfulness (Rom. 9:1-13), righteousness (Rom. 9:14-18), justice (Rom. 9:19-29), and grace (Rom. 9:30-33). You will note that these divisions correspond with Paul's three questions: "Is there unrighteousness with God?" (Rom. 9:14) "Why doth He find fault?" (Rom. 9:19) and "What shall we say then?" (Rom. 9:30)
God's Faithfulness (Rom. 9:1-13)
It is remarkable how Paul moved from the joy of Romans 8 into the sorrow and burden of Romans 9. When he looked at Christ, he rejoiced; but when he looked at the lost people of Israel, he wept. Like Moses (Ex. 32:30-35), he was willing to be cursed and separated from Christ if it would mean the salvation of Israel. What a man this Paul was! He was willing to stay out of heaven for the sake of the saved (Phil. 1:22-24), and willing to go to hell for the sake of the lost.
His theme was God's election of Israel; and the first thing he dealt with was the blessing of their election (Rom. 9:4-5). Israel was adopted by God as His own people (Ex. 4:22-23). He gave them His glory in the tabernacle and the temple (Ex. 40:34-38; 1 Kings 8:10-11). The glory Moses beheld on Mount Sinai came to dwell with Israel (Ex. 24:16-17). God gave Israel His covenants, the first to Abraham, and then additional covenants to Moses and to David. He also gave them His Law to govern their political, social, and religious life, and to guarantee His blessing if they obeyed. He gave them "the service of God," referring to the ministry in the tabernacle and the temple. He gave them the promises and the patriarchs ("the fathers" in Rom. 9:5). The purpose of all of this blessing was that Jesus Christ, through Israel, might come into the world. (Note that Rom. 9:5 affirms that Jesus Christ is God.) All of these blessings were given freely to Israel and to no other nation.
But in spite of these blessings, Israel failed. When the Messiah appeared, Israel rejected Him and crucified Him. No one knew this better than Paul, because in his early days he had persecuted the church. Does Israel's failure mean that God's Word has failed? (The Greek word translated "taken none effect" pictures a ship going off its course.) The answer is, "No! God is faithful no matter what men may do with His Word." Here Paul explains the basis for Israel's election.
It was not of natural descent (vv. 6-10). As we saw in Romans 2:25-29, there is a difference between the natural seed of Abraham and the spiritual children of Abraham. Abraham actually had two sons, Ishmael (by Hagar) and Isaac (by Sarah). Since Ishmael was the firstborn, he should have been chosen, but it was Isaac that God chose. Isaac and Rebecca had twin sons, Esau and Jacob. As the firstborn, Esau should have been chosen, but it was Jacob that God chose. And Esau and Jacob had the same father and mother, unlike Ishmael and Isaac who had the same father but different mothers. God did not base His election on the physical. Therefore, if the nation of Israel—Abraham's physical descendants—has rejected God's Word, this does not nullify God's elective purposes at all.
It is not of human merit (vv. 11-13). God chose Jacob before the babies were born. The two boys had done neither good nor evil, so God's choice was not based on their character or conduct. Romans 9:13 is a reference to Malachi 1:2-3 and refers to nations (Israel and Edom) and not individual sinners. God does not hate sinners. John 3:16 makes it clear that He loves sinners. The statement here has to do with national election, not individual. Since God's election of Israel does not depend on human merit, their disobedience cannot nullify the elective purposes of God. God is faithful even though His people are unfaithful.
Wiersbe
Bible Exposition Commentary - Be Right (Romans).
Romans 11:28-32 (NASB)
28 From the standpoint of the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God's choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers; 29 for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. 30 For just as you once were disobedient to God, but now have been shown mercy because of their disobedience, 31 so these also now have been disobedient, that because of the mercy shown to you they also may now be shown mercy. 32 For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all.
Posts: 6787 | From: Colorado | Registered: Dec 2007
| IP: Logged |
|
|
Caretaker
Advanced Member
Member # 36
|
posted
quote:
Originally posted by bar-net:
Hi,
The mystery of Israel's redemption is found in the prophetic nature of the two houses of Jacob, Judah and Israel. And, in understanding that 'All Israel is NOT Israel.'
When Jesus came, He came primarily to Judah, 'His own.' And He made His disciples 'fishers of men' (Jer16) to call-out the remnant in Judah. This was the origin of the Church.
After Gentiles came into the Church, the full number in Judah was reached, and God did not great work among the Jews for some 1900 years. And during this time all the curses of Deut.32 came upon the Jews.
But now, in these end of days, God is again visiting the Jews to call-out the 'rest of' 'all Israel', the remnant in Israel. So today Jesus makes the Church 'hunters of men' (Jer16), seeking God's chosen in Israel.
'All Israel' will not be saved! Only the remnant, those chosen. It is only the 'sons of the promise' which will be redeemed.
You bring a great deal of scriptural error, smoke and mirrores, and private interpretation leading to date setting.
Paul wrote of two distinctions, Jew and Gentile, and the Biblical context does not separate Judah from the rest of Israel/Jacob in the Letters of Paul.
The Church at no time is ever referred to as Israel/Jacob in the Word of God. The Church is grafted onto the Israel of God, but has not replaced Israel/Jacob in prophecy.
God is not done with Israel/Jacob, and that is why there is a coming prophetic event called the Time of Jacob's Trouble, which is the Great Tribulation.
The Church is grafted onto the Israel of God, the covenant with Father Abraham:
Galations 6:
15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.
16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.
Galations 3:
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
Romans 11:
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.
It is not the Church which is the enemy of the Church, nor is it the Church in which blindness in part has happened, for the Church IS NOT Israel/Jacob, National Israel.
This replacement of Israel/Jacob by so many has led to confusion, the rejection of Nation Israel, and has done a disservice to God's Word.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
--------------------
A Servant of Christ,
Drew
1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..
Posts: 3978 | From: Council Grove, KS USA | Registered: Jun 2002
| IP: Logged |
|
|
WildB
Moderator
Member # 2917
|
posted
quote:
Originally posted by Carol Swenson:
Israel is not a house of Jacob. Jacob was Israel, and he had twelve sons, not two
Paul was not of the tribe of Judah, but Benjamin.
Philippians 3:5
circumcised the eighth day, of the nation of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; as to the Law, a Pharisee;
But I agree that only a remnant will be saved. I don't think by the church though. I think they will be saved during the Tribulation by the two special witnesses, and by the 144,000 who will be sealed.
Ditto
The enemy needs to send much better lol.
--------------------
That is all.....
Posts: 8775 | From: USA, MICHIGAN | Registered: Mar 2004
| IP: Logged |
|
|
Carol Swenson
Admin
Member # 6929
|
posted
Israel is not a house of Jacob. Jacob was Israel, and he had twelve sons, not two
Paul was not of the tribe of Judah, but Benjamin.
Philippians 3:5
circumcised the eighth day, of the nation of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; as to the Law, a Pharisee;
But I agree that only a remnant will be saved. I don't think by the church though. I think they will be saved during the Tribulation by the two special witnesses, and by the 144,000 who will be sealed.
Posts: 6787 | From: Colorado | Registered: Dec 2007
| IP: Logged |
|
|
bar-net
unregistered
|
posted
Hi,
The mystery of Israel's redemption is found in the prophetic nature of the two houses of Jacob, Judah and Israel. And, in understanding that 'All Israel is NOT Israel.'
When Jesus came, He came primarily to Judah, 'His own.' And He made His disciples 'fishers of men' (Jer16) to call-out the remnant in Judah. This was the origin of the Church.
After Gentiles came into the Church, the full number in Judah was reached, and God did not great work among the Jews for some 1900 years. And during this time all the curses of Deut.32 came upon the Jews.
But now, in these end of days, God is again visiting the Jews to call-out the 'rest of' 'all Israel', the remnant in Israel. So today Jesus makes the Church 'hunters of men' (Jer16), seeking God's chosen in Israel.
'All Israel' will not be saved! Only the remnant, those chosen. It is only the 'sons of the promise' which will be redeemed.
IP: Logged |
|
|
|
Printer-friendly view of this topic
