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Author
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Topic: Eschatalogical Viewpoint
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CHEWY
Advanced Member
Member # 6970
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posted
Billy-
I have to honestly say that the most influencial preacher/teacher in my life has been my current pastor [Dr. Vic Young www.flbconline.com]. There are many sermons available from him at the listed site. The one thing he taught me above and beyond all else is that it is my responsibility to check it out. I take the verse that I must study to show myself approved very literally. I was raised the son of a Freewill Baptist pastor. I ran from the church as soon as I was old enough. Later in my life after several years of drugs, alcohol, and bike rallies, Christ bombarded me with incompleteness. I firmly believe I was chosen before hand and he came and "GOT" me. Now my life serves as a testimony to those who have lived hard. They need to know that there is hope.
You are correct about many of the "self-help" preachers in the church today. Our pastor has spoken out to the world about the dangers of the Warrens, Olsteens, Schullers,etc. [Check out the web site] I firmly believe in a teaching of the whole counsel of God. We do need sermons about His goodness and mercy, but we need sermons of His justice and judgment as well.
Ravi Zacharias is my favorite to listen too outside Dr. Young [Vic]. I have read several of his books. He has an understudy who heads up his Canadian ministry named Joe Boot. I am quite impressed with him as well. [I attended a conference in Charlotte, NC he spoke at] I find the teachings of John MacArthur quite full as well. I seem to be on an "Apologetics Run" right now. Dinesh D'souza is quite good in this arena. He debates with renowned atheists. [Google him]
I also enjoy the writings of some of the older writers. [Francis Schaffer, A.W. Pink, Tozer, Packer] It is quite interesting that those you have named are some of the speakers that I would highly recommend. I wonder what it would be like to sit under the teaching of Alister Begg as my pastor. The "Way of the Master" broadcast is favorably smashmouth in a loving way. Comfort and Cameron have taken on a great mission there.
It is great chatting with you and warming to communicate with someone with similar interests/beliefs as myself.
Chewy
Posts: 86 | From: Kingsport Tn. | Registered: Jan 2008
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Billy
Advanced Member
Member # 7193
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posted
Actually, I was raised Southern Baptist, and that is the denomination that I currently attend and support. However, I do like the insights of men like Hanegraaff and Sproul. And you have to admit that the reformers were much better educated men than the breed that we have preaching from the pulpit, today. They had a much better grasp of essential Christian doctrine. They were definitely more concerned about the salvation of their contemporaries than they were about their self-esteem.
That is certainly something that we need more of, today. Would you preach a message on self-esteem, in Peru? Listening to most preachers, today, you would think that Jesus came to spoil us with goodies, rather than to save us from eternal damnation. No wonder people don't keep to their professions of faith. The god that they believe in is one that will make them healthy, wealthy and happy. They aren't even concerned with their sin, because no one has ever pointed it out.
Sorry. I got a little off point, there. The point is, I have a lot of influences, in my faith. There are few preachers on TV that are worth learning from, but I listen to a lot of radio and podcasts. I like Paul Washer, Alistair Begg, James MacDonald, Way of the Master Radio, RC Sproul, Ravi Zacharias and of course Hank Hanegraaff. There are many others that I listen to, but these are the main ones.
So, who are the preachers that have spoken truth into your life?
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Test yourselves to be sure that you are in the faith.
- The Apostle Paul
Posts: 217 | From: overseas | Registered: Jun 2008
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CHEWY
Advanced Member
Member # 6970
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posted
Billy,
I don't really claim to adhere to any one particular teaching of eschatology. I too was originally pre-mill [and still tend to lean in that direction]. Having studied several of the different views, I have come to realize that there are good points in most of them and areas that I see problems with in all of them.
I "assume" that you are more in the Presbetyrian camp than not, just from your posts. So I will give you a word of warning. There are many here who do not understand the "TULIP" doctrine. Tread softly - they are very sensitive.
If my assumptions are correct, you are likely Post - mill. There are many of the teachings in this arena that just make sense, while there are others that I find difficulties with.
I have come to the point of enjoying reading the debate as others interpret it. I believe that when Christ said that noone knows the day or the hour except the Father He was implying more than just time or some point in time. I think He was implying that He has given us clues so that we could be looking up all the more as the day approaches but we will not be able to pin it down to exact details. Many of the most famous writers on the book of Revelation [and other prophetic passages] are really good at selling their opinions. [Just because LaHaye wrote a series of fiction books on the Pre-mill interpretation doesn't make him correct but it is interesting to see his view. Just because Hanegraff is an excellent writer and teacher, he isn't the best debater. He is a little too emotional and takes it too personally.] Maybe someone will be 100% correct, but I doubt any of us will be.
I don't post often but read regularly. Welcome to the post.
Chewy-
Posts: 86 | From: Kingsport Tn. | Registered: Jan 2008
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Michael Harrison
Advanced Member
Member # 6801
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posted
I have come to 'lean' towards the Old Earth Theory. I can see how it is plausible, especially given that our understanding 'limits' God quite a lot, and often. I have never heard Hank's elaboration however.
Now, I disagree with Hank sometimes also. But I have observed by listening to his radio program, some solid stuff that I like. I only seek to find the good in him, and he has a quick, and well studied answer to many things. He wouldn't like me though. On only a couple of issues where we diverge, he would probably 'lable' me and set out to 'correct' where I was wrong. We'll see! But when Paul can say, "Nevertheless Christ is preached," I feel that there is too much mud slinging out there. Someone with a true heart towards God will remain objective until they discover the truth, or God will reach them another way. I don't think that treating other preachers like 'witches' is healthy, wealthy, or wise. I dissagree with whomever. I do so in the fear of God, and if anybody asks why, I can explain why. So, I do not have a great deal of difficulty with Hank.
The only example that I can think of that I have great difficulty with is one who has been, or is on TV, whom I call the "Fried Green Hankercheif." A green hankercheif is his signature, and we know what it means! So we see where his affections are. But what if I find out I am wrong? He might repent and be ok, then I would certainly be. But as it goes, he is pretty disgusting. Nevertheless, those who follow after him are deserving because they are not seeking Jesus. They are seeking temporal, worldly gain. Sad!
Posts: 3273 | From: Charlotte N.C. | Registered: Sep 2007
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Billy
Advanced Member
Member # 7193
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posted
Hank Hanegraaff is well studied, and I like to hear him. But he has some things.... And he is beginning to think that he is the 'watchdog' of the church. He is not! See, goes to show that "carnal knowledge puffeth up." It maketh one to suppose that which they should not.
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I certainly disagree with Hank on a lot of issues, but I don't see where you get that he sees himself as the 'watchdog' of the church. Unless you mean to say that he follows in the footsteps of his mentor, Walter Martin (Kingdom of the Cults), by exposing errors in the theology of those that do more to hurt the church than to help it, and do so by using extra-biblical doctrine. From what I've heard and read from Hank, his main concern is that people read the Bible using proper hermaneutics and read it often.
His work has led many to abandon their faith in cultic societies like the Watchtower and the LDS church for a more biblical faith. I've listened to him as he worked with suicidal people and homosexuals that felt convicted of their sin, but did not know where to turn. In many instances, his ministry is the only place to find evidence of the heresy that is being taught in evangelical churches, today. I don't think his impact is the result of delusion, on his behalf, but a very real influence for Christ that he has had on the evangelical community.
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I know he got hurt in a debate with the very famous (I'll fill in the blank when I remember his name) Tim LaHaye. In fact, I thought that Tim was overbearing, and assertive, unnecessarily, in this debate with Hank Hanegraaf (who is from where I live, by the way). But he is so convinced, based on what he calls, 'years of study'. However, even years of study can be corrupted by the smallest of foundational flaws, upon which one builds their theories. Nevertheless, his attitude was misplaced, in my observation. I don't think that he needed to treat Hank distainfully. (Even if I might be more spiritually parallel to Tim.)
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From having read the Bible cover to cover, and read many of Hank's works, I can safely say that he does not build theories regarding Christian doctrine outside of the framework of scripture. Even the stuff that I disagree with him on, such as his belief in the Old Earth theory, he tends to come up with some decent, biblical arguments for them.
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I didn't think that David was a pre-trib rapture believer?
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I don't know what this is in reference to. Please clarify.
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Test yourselves to be sure that you are in the faith.
- The Apostle Paul
Posts: 217 | From: overseas | Registered: Jun 2008
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Michael Harrison
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Member # 6801
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posted
Hank Hanegraaff is well studied, and I like to hear him. But he has some things.... And he is beginning to think that he is the 'watchdog' of the church. He is not! See, goes to show that "carnal knowledge puffeth up." It maketh one to suppose that which they should not.
I know he got hurt in a debate with the very famous (I'll fill in the blank when I remember his name) Tim LaHaye. In fact, I thought that Tim was overbearing, and assertive, unnecessarily, in this debate with Hank Hanegraaf (who is from where I live, by the way). But he is so convinced, based on what he calls, 'years of study'. However, even years of study can be corrupted by the smallest of foundational flaws, upon which one builds their theories. Nevertheless, his attitude was misplaced, in my observation. I don't think that he needed to treat Hank distainfully. (Even if I might be more spiritually parallel to Tim.)
I didn't think that David was a pre-trib rapture believer?
Posts: 3273 | From: Charlotte N.C. | Registered: Sep 2007
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Billy
Advanced Member
Member # 7193
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posted
I hold to an Amos 5 view, when it comes to end times contraversy. I don't think it is biblical, or very glorifying to the Lord, to have an extreme focus on the subject of the end times. Sadly, however, for many in the evangelical community, this has become their main method of attracting "seekers."
I think it's pretty clear what can happen when we let things go too far in regard to prophesy. Just look at the Jehovah's Witnesses. There are certain ground rules that the Bible lays out regarding prophesy and how to interpret it. A good place to start is Deuteronomy 18.
On a final note, has anyone here read Apocalypse Code, by Hank Hanegraaff, or the Last Days According to Jesus, by RC Sproul? I've heard that there is a book out there called Cracking the Apocalypse Code, that claims to pick apart Hank Hanegraaff's book. Of course, I've also heard that it does not accomplish its main goal.
Let me know what you've heard.
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Test yourselves to be sure that you are in the faith.
- The Apostle Paul
Posts: 217 | From: overseas | Registered: Jun 2008
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Kindgo
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Member # 2
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posted
A Premillennial, Pre-tribulation view: teaches the rapture and Second Coming are separate events.
The Bible teaches the rapture happens before the 7-year Tribulation begins.
This website holds to this view of prophecy.
It's o.k. for Christians to disagree concerning their views on prophecy, but those disagreements should not cause division.
Christians should agree to disagree on differing prophetic viewpoints because our fellowship is in Jesus Christ, not in a particular view of prophecy.
Do you know that prophecy is about 1/3 of the Bible?
Jesus Christ is the spirit of prophecy!
Rev 1:1 ¶ The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified [it] by his angel unto his servant John:
Rev 1:2 Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.
Rev 1:3 Blessed [is] he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time [is] at hand.
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God bless,
Kindgo
Inside the will of God there is no failure. Outside the will of God there is no success.
Posts: 4320 | From: Sunny Florida | Registered: Jun 2002
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Michael Harrison
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Member # 6801
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posted
I have paid very little attention to the terms. The do not seem to be very important regarging one's faith and relationship with Christ Jesus.
I do not believe in a rapture, but in the Second Coming. I have never pondered the millinial reign because I feel that we will not understand Revelation until we are in it, or past it.
Posts: 3273 | From: Charlotte N.C. | Registered: Sep 2007
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Billy
Advanced Member
Member # 7193
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posted
Is there anyone here that is not either a premillennialist or dispensationalist in their view of the end times? It certainly appears as though everyone here is.
In Christ,
Billy
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Test yourselves to be sure that you are in the faith.
- The Apostle Paul
Posts: 217 | From: overseas | Registered: Jun 2008
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