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Topic: God, Inc - Building Earthly Empires
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becauseHElives
Advanced Member
Member # 87
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posted
HisGrace, I went back and read this whole thread, you are the only defender of this mega bucks Church mentality and affluent life styles, while those they pretend to care about peoples needs , the people do without
this is very good you should pray to Yeshua to open your eyes so you can see and read it and be changed into the image of a servant
You can not drive a Rolls-Royce you paid cash for when the people you preach to have a10 year old Chevy or Ford that the are still paying a mortgage on ( This is not washing one another feet and sharing all things in common, Love doesn’t pay $ 2,500 for chairs to set in)
How does that compare to people in Zambia, setting for hour on what we would call a long hitching post (happy as can be)
http://www.iconbusters.com/iconbusters/docs/letter/letter.htm
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
Posts: 4578 | From: Southeast Texas | Registered: Jun 2002
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helpforhomeschoolers
Advanced Member
Member # 15
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posted
Amen Java!
He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word, and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becomes unfruitful. (Matt. 13:22)
Dear Deceived Lakewood Churchgoers & Television Viewers:
I write this letter of rebuke and warning, not because Jesus appeared to me in a vision, not because the Holy Ghost came to me in a second anointed filling, not because God the Father teleported me to the Third Heaven for a personal meeting, but because the Word of God, the very Bible which you hold up and confess, commands me to do so.
It is true your church has leased the Compaq Center in Houston for $12 million dollars. It is also true you desire to renovate and improve the Center for an estimated additional $70 million.
Artist’s rendering of Lakewood Compaq Center after $70 million renovation.
Lakewood is determined to give St. Peter’s Basilica a run for its money.
And it is true your church encourages Christians to ‘Sponsor-A-Seat’ in the nearly 18,000 seat Center at a cost of $2,500 per to pay for the rebuilding effort.
Joel & Victoria Osteen standing beside $2,500 theater seat.
Theater seats are necessary to watch theatrical Christian church services.
However, it is also true that Jesus sent His Apostles out to preach the Gospel providing neither gold, nor silver, nor brass in their pockets, nor scrip for their journey, neither two coats, neither shoes, nor yet staves; for the workman is worthy of his meat. Yet Lakewood Church requires $70 million dollars more to do the work of Jesus, showing little of that supernatural faith which they and their leaders claim.
‘Discover the Champion in You’ – Lakewood’s Gospel of Greed
Under the new leadership of Joel Osteen, son of the late founder, John, Lakewood Church has grown in church attendance, tithes and television markets. It has also provided numerous benefits to Joel, including a $1 ¼ million dollar home. [Source: http://north-valley.com/realestate_board/messages/157.html ] One can only imagine the number of servants needed to keep this busy, professional, prosperous, religious household of four afloat and fed. One can also only imagine the budget needed to keep the Osteens cloaked in Neiman Marcus’ finest.
Never short on million-dollar smiles and warm, humorous anecdotes, many about ‘Daddy,’ Senior Pastor Joel, an Oral Roberts University dropout, exudes confidence and success. Certainly, in worldly terms, he has achieved this at the young age of 39, thanks to the multitudes of deceived tithing Lakewood churchgoers. In what is no less than a meteoric rise to prominence, Joel Osteen has invented an extremely lucrative career as a ‘Christian’ Motivational Speaker, having worked diligently for years behind the scenes supervising the television production of his father’s services. Awarding himself the title of pastor, ‘one who feeds his flock,’ Joel reluctantly took the torch passed to him by his dying father. Today, boosted by his sudden and unexpected success, a confident Pastor Joel urges his disciples to discover the champion in you, teaching them weekly how they, too, can achieve their dreams and hearts’ desires. God wants to reward his congregation and viewers abundantly, he tells them, if only they would use the principles the Word-Faith Teachers have discovered to tap into this divine treasure trove.
Pastor Osteen’s positive brand of non-offensive Christianity, purposefully omitting the Lord’s thousands of warnings, pleases the masses, earning him accolades in the American ‘Christian’ Word-Faith, Pentecostal/Charismatic community. However, when one examines Osteen’s ministry by the searchlight of the Word of God, one quickly finds discrepancies between the teachings of Osteen and the teachings of Jesus.
Osteen Preaches a False Gospel
“What does the resurrection mean to you and me today living in the year 2000? Number one. Our sins have already been forgiven…… But listen to me carefully, friends, this is so important. None of this will do you any good unless you rise up and begin to act on it. Do you know you can still die and go to hell even though your sins have already been forgiven? What a tragedy. But if you don't accept this forgiveness and make Jesus the Lord of your life, it's not going to do you any good.” [Sermon: The Truth of the Resurrection.]
“And some of you today don’t want to come to God because you say, "Joel, you know, you’re talking about some things I don’t understand." Listen, this is what you need to understand. Your sins have already been forgiven if you will only accept the gift. The price has already been paid.” [Sermon: What the Resurrection means to us as believers.]
If the price has already been paid and the sins forgiven every sinner ever born, as Osteen falsely preaches, then God is an unjust God who demands payment for sins twice: once by His innocent Son on the cross, who was punished in the stead of His people; then again from the non-accepting sinner whom He sends to Hell to undergo eternal punishment. Not even the secular judicial system requires payment from the exonerated defendant. Once declared ‘not guilty,’ he can never be tried or punished for the same crime again. Yet Pastor Joel preaches a God more unjust than sinful men.
If the price has already been paid and the sins forgiven every sinner ever born, as Osteen falsely preaches, then Christ’s sacrifice was not sufficient, nor did He render to the Father full satisfaction and expiation for sin, because many on that Great Day of Judgment will, to no avail, cry, ‘But, Lord, Lord,’ as they are cast into the Lake of Fire, (Matt. 7:21-23).
If the price has already been paid and the sins forgiven every sinner ever born, as Osteen falsely preaches, then Christ’s last words, It is finished, is a lie, for He had finishing nothing without the cooperation of the sinner in receiving His atoning sacrifice. Thus, in Osteen’s reality, Christ’s atonement is incomplete, unfinished, without man’s assent. Salvation provided by Christ is null and void without man’s decision for Christ.
In Osteen’s unconscionable Gospel, every human being has already been forgiven his sins, yet many are going to Hell. This is no Good News. What, pray tell, is ‘good’ about the Gospel which states that God loves you, has forgiven you all your sins, yet you may still go to Hell? This is the Gospel of the devil.
Osteen Preaches a False Christ
In preaching a false Gospel, Osteen, of necessity, preaches a false Christ. The Christ he worships is under bondage to the will of man, ever so careful not to overstep the bounds of man’s alleged free will decision either for Him or against Him. Christ’s will is subservient to man’s will. Thus, in Osteen’s reality, man is the greater God, for the Lord is always greater than the servant, Matt. 10:24.
Osteen’s Christ takes extreme pleasure in blessing Christians with material blessings, those things beloved, esteemed and sought by the world. In Joel’s theology, a Christian may love the world and the things therein, while the love of the Father still remains in him. Osteen’s Christ allows Christians to worship both God and mammon to no eternal danger of their souls.
Osteen’s Christ saves none outright, though He has paid the price for all, though He has forgiven all. His Christ only saves those who agree to being saved. His Christ willingly shares the glory of salvation with man who, by his wise and holy free will decision, makes Christ’s sacrifice successful. His Christ, though called ‘Savior,’ fails to save most of the world, to His shame and humiliation.
“And if people can ever really see how good our God is, they'll come running to Him.” [Sermon: The Great Commission]
Though Christ never sinned, doing only good, and telling only truth, He was beaten, mocked, tortured and crucified. This is how religious men, who read and studied the Scriptures, received Him. Though Christ was a Rock of Offense and a Stone of Stumbling, Pastor Osteen would have unregenerate sinners welcome his false Christ with open arms of love. And why wouldn’t they? Pastor Joel preaches a ‘kinder, gentler, worldlier’ Christ. One who does not offend. One who asks nothing of them. One who does not require man to lose his life to gain it. One who does not judge. One who promises to abundantly bless men with the riches beloved of the world. One who simply cheers Christians on to victory over the world, the flesh and devil, for We Are the Champions. One who has no cross for men to carry. One whose will is frustrated by man at every turn. One who has forgiven the world, yet cannot save the world, try as He may. One whose primary attribute is love, yet His love fails more often than not, sending multitudes to the eternal pains of Hell.
Osteen Preaches a False Christianity
“I remember that story that Brother Hagin told. Kenneth Hagin, you all know him. He saw Jesus several times in his lifetime. He’s still alive. But he told about the first time that he saw Jesus. He fell down. He was overwhelmed with emotion. And he fell down on his face. You can imagine. Just lying flat on the ground. And he said, "I put my hands on Jesus’ feet and then I put my forehead on my hands." And I began to cry out, "I’m not worthy, Jesus. I’m not worthy, Jesus. I’m not worthy to be in Your presence. I’m not worthy to look on Your face." And Jesus spoke to him in a sharp military command. He said, "Son, stand up." And Brother Hagin stood up. He thought he was in trouble, you know. He stood up. And Jesus spoke to him sternly. He said, "Son, you are worthy. You are worthy because I shed My blood to make you worthy." See, friends, it’s nothing we’ve done, but God has made us worthy.” [Sermon: No Condemnation]
Though Kenneth Hagin is an infamous false prophet of the Word-Faith heresy movement, known and exposed worldwide as such, Joel Osteen calls him, ‘brother,’ revealing Osteen’s real spiritual kinship. Though Mr. Hagin wouldn’t know the true Jesus if his life depended upon it (which it does), Pastor Osteen naïvely believes every lying wonder told him by this false prophet, a prodigious religious actor. His public endorsement of Hagin is that which Lakewood needs, if they, too, will behave as this present writer has witnessed Hagin behave, (via videotape), howling, screeching, cackling, and wailing like a banshee on assignment from Satan. Accompanying Hagin at this particular demonic inculcation was that All-American Christian couple, Ken & Gloria Copeland.
Though he claims no inherent worthiness in man, as noted in the above quote, Pastor Osteen speaks out of both sides of his mouth. Due to his errant, unbiblical view of man, Osteen believes there is worthiness in sinful men, Christ foreseeing some would receive His free gift of salvation, thereby choosing, electing and predestinating them for the Kingdom of God. But Scripture declares the opposite: your righteousness (and worthiness), says the Lord, are as filthy rags, Isaiah 64:6. There is none righteous, no not one; There is none that understand, there is none that seeketh after (the true) God…There is none that doeth good, no not one, Romans 3:10-18. Deceived of Lakewood, God has not foreseen one sinner’s worthy, righteous choice of Christ. He has made His sheep acceptable in Christ, 1 Peter 2:5; Eph. 1:6, by sovereignly and efficaciously giving them the gifts of saving grace, including repentance and the very faith to believe on Christ, imputing Christ’s righteousness to their account. Our righteousness is Christ alone, Him alone being worthy, even after we have been adopted into the family of God: Jeremiah 23:6; 2 Cor. 5:21; Rev. 5:12. John the Baptist, though filled with the Holy Spirit from the womb, reflected a true humble Christian spirit by declaring the very shoes of Christ he was not worthy to bear, Matt. 3:11.
“God is a good God. He wants to bless us. He wants to give us the desires of our heart. But if we don’t watch it, it’s through our own doubt and unbelief that we’re reaching up there and we’re cutting back the flow of God’s blessings and His supernatural power in our lives.” [Sermon: Don’t Limit God]
This is another prime example of Osteen’s preaching that sinful man has dominion and superiority over God. The Lord so desperately wants to give us our hearts desires, but we frustrate His will of blessing for our lives, teaches Pastor Joel. Yet Scriptures declare a God whose will cannot fail to achieve its purposes: All the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing; and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou? (Daniel 4:35)
“No, this new generation, this new army, it’s you and it’s me. It’s all of us. We have such an unshakable confidence in God. We understand our rights and our privileges. We understand our God-given authority in the name of Jesus. We understand that Satan is already defeated 2,000 years ago. We understand that he’s under our feet. We understand that there’s nothing impossible to us if we only believe. And I believe this new generation, they dare the enemy to come around. They get excited if he comes around because they enjoy slapping him upside the head a couple of times. (Applause)” [Sermon: God’s Best Path for our Lives.]
As Pastor Osteen and this new generation of Word-Faith heretics, drunken with delusions of grandeur, revel in their ‘power’ over Satan, Satan and his minions celebrate their victory over Osteen and Lakewood Church as they sow, unhindered, a false Gospel, a false Christ, and a false Christianity via satellite worldwide.
Osteen Mocks the Doctrine of Eternal Damnation
“Listen; don’t dangle people over the fires of hell. Lisa and I always kid about you know we’re going to dangle them over the fires of hell. Listen, that doesn’t draw people to God. They know what kind of life they live. They know how bad they’ve lived. What you’ve got to do is talk about the goodness of God. Listen, it’s the goodness of God that brings people to repentance. It’s the goodness of God. One thing I always appreciated about my dad is that he instilled into us a good vision of who God was. We learned about a good God.” [Sermon: What the Resurrection means to us as believers]
Though Jesus Christ spoke on Hell more than any Apostle, Pastor Joel would dismiss it as offensive and a detriment to man’s salvation. Joel knows better than Christ as to what sinful, evil men need to hear. Yes, God is good to some, sovereignly giving them the gifts of repentance unto life, forgiveness of sins, saving faith, belief in the truth, good works and perseverance. But to the false prophets, false teachers, the reprobate and liars, He promises to give His holy and just wrath, fury and condemnation.
Osteen Introduces a New Sacrament Guaranteed to Give Grace: the Sinner’s Prayer
“If you’ll bow your heads in prayer, let me just say something to those of you who are viewing by television. Maybe some of you have never asked Jesus into your heart. You know it’s not a difficult thing to do. You just have to pray a prayer and mean it from the bottom of your heart. Be sincere. Just say, Jesus, come in to my heart and save me. Be my Lord; be my Savior. Jesus, I repent of my sins and I turn my life over to You. You are now my Lord and my Savior and I’ll serve You all the days of my life.” [Sermon: Don’t Limit God]
Although this prayer of guaranteed salvation is nowhere to found in the infallible Word of God, Pastor Joel has discovered what may well be more popular in false Christianity than The Prayer of Jabez. Though Scripture declares man’s heart deceitful above all things and desperately wicked, Jeremiah 17:9, Pastor Joel would have us change that which is wicked, which loathes holiness, into a heart which is pure, loving holiness, by simply reciting a magical incantation for a few short seconds.
That ‘confession’ commands God to send His saving grace, preaches Pastor Joel. Yet the many professing Christians whom Christ casts into the Lake of Fire, Matt. 7:23, did just that. They confessed the Sinner’s Prayer, yet remained dead in their sins and trespasses.
Have the Lakewood Faithful No Shame?
Though the Lakewood churchgoers and American television viewers live in the most prosperous country on earth, free of persecution and tyranny, enjoying privileges and conveniences unknown to centuries of Christian people worldwide, even those living today, still they want more.
A Holy Ghost Prayer Pity Party to enlarge their borders is always a righteous cause, as they and their pastor stand by their steadfast, unswerving faith, arms held high, confessing it their sovereign birthright, according to God’s many promises, that they enjoy an even richer, less burdensome, tribulation-free, sickness-free, Christian life. And may the Lord have special mercy on those who have missed a Lexus payment or two.
To believe this selfish, self-serving fiction the Lakewood Laodiceans must willfully ignore innumerable Scriptures which oppose such teaching, as well as close their eyes and ears to the factual history of the Christian Church.
Christ Warns Bigger is not Better
Christ tells a parable concerning small beginnings in Matt. 13:31-32. These parables are known as Kingdom Parables because their subject is the professing Christian Church on earth. A mustard seed was sown which, though insignificant as far as seeds are concerned, grew to be the greatest herb. It then did something unnatural. The herb became a tree, so large that the birds of the air made the branches of the tree their home. Christ defined the birds of the air previously in verse 19 as being those of the wicked one, i.e., Satan. Thus, the parable of the mustard seed is a warning to Christians that the small, humble beginnings of the true Gospel and true Christ will be perverted into that which it is not, thereby attracting evil spirits, multitudes of evildoers and false prophets who preach a false Christ and false Gospel.
Furthermore, Christ purposely uses the pronoun ‘few’ when speaking of those who find the narrow gate which leads to life. And should we neglect the hard truth that many are called, but few chosen?
Osteen’s Metaphor of a Check Unbiblical
“We must understand that salvation is a completely and totally free gift. See, if you don’t do that, then what you’re trying to do is pay back your salvation with your good works. And God doesn’t want it to be that way. Because the problem is that one day you’re not going to be able to do as many good works you think you should. And then all of a sudden you’re going to feel condemned. See, that’s the way the enemy works. You’re trying to pay back your salvation. We don’t have to pay this back. It’s a free gift.
You see, there’s a big difference between something you’ve earned and something that’s free. Suppose your boss came to pay you this week and he gave you your paycheck. You probably did not have an overwhelming sense of gratitude. You probably didn’t have an overwhelming sense of gratitude because, you know why? You worked for that money. You earned it. The company owed you. You probably took it and you might have said, thank you.
But friends, listen, imagine this. If your boss came to you next week and he called you by name. He said, John, here’s your paycheck. He said, but John, even though you’ve been late every day this week, even though your attitude is very poor, even though your productivity is way down. Because I genuinely love you and appreciate you, I’m enclosing a $10,000 bonus in this week’s pay period. Do you know what would happen after you fainted? (Laughter) Listen, you’d probably roll over and kiss his feet. Do you know why? It was a free gift. You didn’t deserve it. You didn’t earn it. You didn’t have to work for it. And listen to this, you don’t even have to pay it back. It’s the gift of God.
See, we’ve got to understand the tremendous thing that God did for us in salvation. Really you know, we were all on our way to hell. You talk about a gift. Man, we should be grateful.” [Sermon: No Condemnation]
As pleasing as Pastor Osteen’s metaphor may seem to the natural mind, Scripture tells us, in innumerable ways and verses, that in the mind and heart of the unregenerate sinner, Christ is no $10,000 bonus. In fact, He has no value whatever.
Isaiah 53 describes Christ’s reception by His fellow Jews hundreds of years before He was born:
“He hath no form or comeliness, and when we shall see him there is no beauty that we should desire him. He is despised and rejected of men……he was despised and we esteemed him not.”
So does Matthew 21:33-40:
“But last of all he sent unto them his son, saying, They will reverence my son. But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance. And they caught him, and cast him out of the vineyard, and slew him.”
To the natural man, the unregenerate sinner, Christ is worthless. Recently, this present writer actually received a check - a gift - for less than one dollar. This writer threw it away, disgusted and offended. In order for Osteen’s metaphor to remain consistent with God’s Word, we would have to add the awful truth that the sinner will always despise Christ, our ‘Check,’ as being of no value, worthless, offensive and foolish. The natural man, not being the recipient of saving grace, will rip up the check, treading it under his feet every time.
Pastor Osteen presents his congregation and viewing public with a counterfeit ‘check,’ a counterfeit Christ, which the ignorant and deceived gladly embrace without seeing if those things be so.
The Lord Commands His People Leave False Christianity
Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues. For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities.(Rev. 18:4-5)
Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? And what communion hath light with darkness? And what concord hath Christ with Belial….Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing, and I will receive you. And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty. (2 Cor. 6:14-18)
Though Pastor Joel frequently preaches God does not remember our sins of the past, he neglects to inform you, his congregation, that there are those whose sins He does not forget. They include Mystery Babylon, the Mother of Harlots, and her innumerable harlot daughters. All share the common errors of preaching and teaching a false Gospel, a false Christ and a false Christianity.
Had God Almighty willed, Christ could easily have been born in the television age. Imagine, handheld cameras could have captured Christ’s Sermons on the Mount, His Crucifixion and Resurrection in High Definition. These holy images could have then been preserved for all posterity to view again and again. The huge widescreen monitors placed above Pastor Osteen’s stage would have been an incredible vehicle to use to convince sinners of the truth of Christ. Or would they?
In His unsearchable wisdom, the Lord has ordained that man be drawn to Christ, not by the building of multi-million dollar edifices, not by the performances of ‘Christian’ superstars, not by the personality, charisma and charm of the preacher, not by his folksy anecdotes and humor, not by his hair gel and Neiman Marcus suits, but by the Word of God, unedited, uncensored, uncompromised, spoken in Spirit and truth.
This writer quotes below Nicholas Ridley, excommunicated Bishop of London; words he wrote days before his burning martyrdom for Christ’s sake in 16th century England; words which refute the present-day Gospel of Greed overspreading modern-day professing evangelical Christianity; words which manifest who the true champions are:
“It is not as the wicked thinketh, that poverty, adversity, sickness, tribulation, yea painful death of the godly, be tokens that God doth not love them; but even clean the contrary, as all the whole course of Scripture doth evidently declare: for then He would never have suffered His most dearly beloved, the patriarchs, to have had such troubles, nor His prophets, apostles, martyrs and chief champions and maintainers of His truth and Gospel, so cruelly of the wicked to have been murdered and slain.” [John Foxe, Acts and Monuments, volume 7, p. 582.]
It is the sincere prayer of this present writer that Pastor Joel and you, his deceived congregation, would repent of your heresies and your sin of unbelief, that you would lose your selfish lives, pick up your cross and follow the true Christ, whose sufferings we, as Christians, are destined to suffer for his sake:
For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake. (Phil. 1:29)
The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit that we are the children of God. And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs of Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together. For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. (Romans 8:16-18)
In Christian love of the whole counsel of God,
Rand Winburn
Director
Protestant Reformation Publications
http://www.iconbusters.com
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Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002
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HisGrace
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I listened to the audio clip and what he says is very true. I was brought in a fire and brimstone type of church and I understand totally what they are all about.
However, we are all parts of the body of Christ, all with the same message, but with different anointings and different talents.
"1 Corinthians 12:12
The body is a unit, though it is made up of many parts; and though all its parts are many, they form one body. So it is with Christ."
I haven't listened to enough of JO's sermons to know exactly how he presents the gospel, but I am going by what he has declared on interviews and in his apology, and he has made it clear to me that he believes that we have to be born again in order to get into heaven. His viewers and listeners are well aware of that, and I am sure there is a quickening in their Spirit whenever he preaches. We think it is all up the speaker, but we have to understand that God is also mightily at work in peoples' hearts.
I can't comment further on Joel Osteen, but I know beyond all shadow of doubt that others who have been spoken against are totally under the Lords' anointing, and this grieves me very much. I don't look at allegations that have made about material gain, even if it is partly true; I just look at the spiritual food and rescue operations that they have provided for me throughout the years.
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hardcore
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quote:
Originally posted by HisGrace:
In response to your post, hardcore, this is the last comment I am going to make regarding Joel Osteen, because everyone has their own pre-conceived notions about him and nothing I say is obviously going to change that. There is too much knit-picking, trying to dredge up every little word and twist it to suit your own agenda.
They are not preconceived notions HisGrace. I have watched him on tv many times and I have his latest book. His words are available for any who care to read or listen. Nitpicking isn't necessary. His words clearly speak for themselves.
I wonder if you fully realize the irony of you accusing others of twisting words to suit an agenda. Osteen is an absolute master at it. His entire doctrinal theme is realized by scripture twisting.
I think it's good that you don't want to defend Osteen "publicly" anymore. I wouldn't want to either. And you're right. Those of us who see the truth will not change our minds.
I would however, be interested in your views on what Linda just posted (directly above your last post).
Posts: 627 | Registered: Mar 2005
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HisGrace
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In response to your post, hardcore, this is the last comment I am going to make regarding Joel Osteen, because everyone has their own pre-conceived notions about him and nothing I say is obviously going to change that. There is too much knit-picking, trying to dredge up every little word and twist it to suit your own agenda.
From Larry King Live "KING: Do you share Billy's beliefs of life after death in a sense of going somewhere?
OSTEEN: I do. I do. We probably agree on 99 percent. I do. I believe there's a heaven you know. Afterwards, there's, you know, a place called hell. And I believe it's when we have a relationship with God and his son Jesus and that's what the Bible teaches us. I believe it."
(In all of the sermons that I have heard Billy Graham preach he always says that Jesus is the only way.)
Many seem to forget that he did write a letter of apology, explaining that he was misunderstood.
Joel Osteen's own Words -" It was never my desire or intention to leave any doubt as to what I believe and Whom I serve. I believe with all my heart that it is only through Christ that we have hope in eternal life. I regret and sincerely apologize that I was unclear on the very thing in which I have dedicated my life.
Jesus declared in John 14; I am the way, the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father but by me. I believe that Jesus Christ alone is the only way to salvation. However, it wasn’t until I had the opportunity to review the transcript of the interview that I realize I had not clearly stated that having a personal relationship with Jesus is the only way to heaven. It’s about the individual’s choice to follow."
GOD IS LOVE ![[Cross]](graemlins/cross.gif)
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helpforhomeschoolers
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David thank you for your post in this thread and for this link. Hal and I did listen to this clip this morning and it was very good.
I am going to post it again here, in hopes that some will listen and pray for discernment of the truth that is spoken.
quote:
The below is on this subject. It is about 10 minutes long and worth listening to:
http://www.heargoodnews.org/mp3/My-Sorrows.m3u
This is indeed how we see the current situation and it is heartbreaking. I rather confounds our senses and our spirit that so many in the world think that God does not greive over what is happening in the world with the professing church.
So many do not seem to understand that he is a HOLY, RIGHTEOUS and JUST GOD. It was not enough that Cain brought offering to God Cain's way. We must do things GOD's way and the scriptures speak of GOD's way.
God does not draw men to "Health, Wealth, and the pursuit of earthly happiness", unless his first drawns them to brokeness, repentence, and through covenant, HIS Kingdom and HIS Righteousness.
God does not want us to come to HIM for what He can give us of this worlds goods or this world's values or this world's vision of peace, life, love, or joy ; HE wants us to come to HIM for What he has already given us. HIS SON, HIS Kingdom, HIS righteousness. Then and ONLY then will the things be added unto us that are for the meeting of our earthly needs, and even then, it will not be for the fulfilling of the lusts of the flesh!
God does not want to come into our lives. God wants us to come into HIS life and be reconcilled with HIM and love the things HE loves, and Will the things HE wills and want the things HE wants.
Man has been alienated from the life of God and it is this life he is reconcilling us to.
Ephesians 4:18 Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:
We keep trying to reconcile HIM to our lives and it cannot be done - HE is a HOLY GOD; and we must give up our lives and be reconciled to HIS!!!
That must be done HIS way and not our way, and HIS way is in the scripture and this article does not paint the same picture as the scripture.
Proverbs 14:12 There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.
This is a picture of people seeking to enter....
Luke 13:24 Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.
25 When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are:
We cannot enter through the wide gate anymore today than these could!
There is nothing that has happend to Israel that is not going to happen in the church. The door is soon to close on the entering in of the church.
If you want to know where the many in the church are headed look to where Israel has been. Solomon said there is nothing new under the sun.
Judgement is coming and it begins at the house of the Lord!
Ezekiel 34:2 Son of man, prophesy against the shepherds of Israel, prophesy, and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD unto the shepherds; Woe be to the shepherds of Israel that do feed themselves! should not the shepherds feed the flocks?
2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
Amos 8:11 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord GOD, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the LORD:
Revelation 18:23 And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived.
Awake! Church Awake! Hear the Shofar! The Bridegromm Cometh! Awake! Church!
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hardcore
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quote:
Originally posted by HisGrace:
quote:
Originally posted by hardcore:
He does not teach sin and repentance.
I have just heard a few of his sermons, so I don't feel qualified enough to make a comment on whether he preaches on sin or not.(This was a few months ago)
I do know, however,that he does give an invitation to his viewers at the end of every broadcast. In his forgiveness statement he seems to make it very clear about his standing on sin.
I guess you didn't see this comment that I made on another thread hardcore.
"Joel Osteen has been accused of not talking about sin. He always gives an invitation after his broadcasts for viewers to come to Christ.
It goes like this. "Lord Jesus, I repent of my sins. I ask you to come into my heart. I make you the Lord of my life."
He doesn't preach sin HisGrace. From his own mouth:
Excerpt Two:
KING: You don't call them sinners?
OSTEEN: I don't.
KING: Is that a word you don't use?
OSTEEN: I don't use it. I never thought about it. But I probably don't. But most people already know what they're doing wrong. When I get them to church I want to tell them that you can change. There can be a difference in your life. So I don't go down the road of condemning.
There are plenty of people who repeat the standard sinners prayer mantra without having a clue as to why or what they're doing. If he's not preaching sin and repentance in his messages, why would his audience be convicted enough to do the "repeat after me"?
After listing to him, the only reason anyone would want Jesus is to get a bigger house or a new car, not because they realize that they're wallowing in sin and in need of a saviour.
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rancan6776
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oh....here is his apology letter...after the fact....
Dear Friend,
Many of you have called, written or e-mailed regarding my recent appearance on Larry King Live. I appreciate your comments and value your words of correction and encouragement.
It was never my desire or intention to leave any doubt as to what I believe and Whom I serve. I believe with all my heart that it is only through Christ that we have hope in eternal life. I regret and sincerely apologize that I was unclear on the very thing in which I have dedicated my life.
Jesus declared in John 14; I am the way, the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father but by me. I believe that Jesus Christ alone is the only way to salvation. However, it wasn’t until I had the opportunity to review the transcript of the interview that I realize I had not clearly stated that having a personal relationship with Jesus is the only way to heaven. It’s about the individual’s choice to follow Him.
God has given me a platform to present the Gospel to a very diverse audience. In my desire not to alienate the people that Jesus came to save, I did not clearly communicate the convictions that I hold so precious.
I will use this as a learning experience and believe that God will ultimately use it for my good and His glory. I am comforted by the fact that He sees my heart and knows my intentions. I am so thankful that I have friends, like you, who are willing to share their concerns with me.
Thank you again to those who have written. I hope that you accept my deepest apology and see it in your heart to extend to me grace and forgiveness.
As always, I covet your prayers and I am believing for God’s best in your life,
Joel Osteen
Pastor - Lakewood Church
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rancan6776
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all I'm saying is that He seems very luke warm to me. He had a great opportunity to proclaim that Jesus is the way and the only way but just couldnt in fear that he may offend someone.
Cant fill the new building if we start offending people.....
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rancan6776
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lets look at another excerpt from the Larry King interview.
Excerpt One:
KING: Because we've had ministers on who said, your record don't count. You either believe in Christ or you don't. If you believe in Christ, you are, you are going to heaven. And if you don't no matter what you've done in your life, you ain't.
OSTEEN: Yeah, I don't know. There's probably a balance between. I believe you have to know Christ. But I think that if you know Christ, if you're a believer in God, you're going to have some good works. I think it's a cop-out to say I'm a Christian but I don't ever do anything ...
KING: What if you're Jewish or Muslim, you don't accept Christ at all?
OSTEEN: You know, I'm very careful about saying who would and wouldn't go to heaven. I don't know ...
KING: If you believe you have to believe in Christ? They're wrong, aren't they?
OSTEEN: Well, I don't know if I believe they're wrong. I believe here's what the Bible teaches and from the Christian faith this is what I believe. But I just think that only God will judge a person's heart. I spent a lot of time in India with my father. I don't know all about their religion. But I know they love God. And I don't know. I've seen their sincerity. So I don't know. I know for me, and what the Bible teaches, I want to have a relationship with Jesus.
Excerpt Two:
KING: You don't call them sinners?
OSTEEN: I don't.
KING: Is that a word you don't use?
OSTEEN: I don't use it. I never thought about it. But I probably don't. But most people already know what they're doing wrong. When I get them to church I want to tell them that you can change. There can be a difference in your life. So I don't go down the road of condemning.
KING: You believe in the Bible literally?
OSTEEN: I do, I do.
KING: Noah had an ark and Adam and Eve?
OSTEEN: I do. I do. I believe that. I believe it all.
Excerpt Three:
CALLER: Hello, Larry. You're the best, and thank you, Joe -- Joel -- for your positive messages and your book. I'm wondering, though, why you side-stepped Larry's earlier question about how we get to heaven? The bible clearly tells us that Jesus is the way, the truth and the light and the only way to the father is through him. That's not really a message of condemnation but of truth.
OSTEEN: Yes, I would agree with her. I believe that...
KING: So then a Jew is not going to heaven?
OSTEEN: No. Here's my thing, Larry, is I can't judge somebody's heart. You know? Only god can look at somebody's heart, and so -- I don't know. To me, it's not my business to say, you know, this one is or this one isn't. I just say, here's what the bible teaches and I'm going to put my faith in Christ. And I just I think it's wrong when you go around saying, you're saying you're not going, you're not going, you're not going, because it's not exactly my way. I'm just...
KING: But you believe your way.
OSTEEN: I believe my way. I believe my way with all my heart.
KING: But for someone who doesn't share it is wrong, isn't he?
OSTEEN: Well, yes. Well, I don't know if I look at it like that. I would present my way, but I'm just going to let god be the judge of that. I don't know. I don't know.
KING: So you make no judgment on anyone?
OSTEEN: No. But I...
KING: What about atheists?
OSTEEN: You know what, I'm going to let someone -- I'm going to let god be the judge of who goes to heaven and hell. I just -- again, I present the truth, and I say it every week. You know, I believe it's a relationship with Jesus. But you know what? I'm not going to go around telling everybody else if they don't want to believe that that's going to be their choice. God's got to look at your own heart. God's got to look at your heart, and only god knows that.
KING: You believe there's a place called heaven?
OSTEEN: I believe there is. Yes. You know, you've had a lot of the near-death experiences and things like that. Some of that is very, to me, not that you need that as proof, but it shows you these little kids seeing the angels and things like that.
Posts: 52 | From: east texas | Registered: Oct 2004
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Eduardo Grequi
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I have to print this one off. It would take me a day to read it and it I shall read!
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JAVA
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That entire scenario is built on a set of presuppositions that are patently unbiblical. The church is not a lodge recruiting members. It is not a pub for the neighborhood. It is not a frat house enlisting pledges. It is not a community center where parties are held. It is not a country club for the masses. It is not a city precinct meeting where the community's problems are addressed. It is not a court to rectify society's injustices. It is not an open forum, or a political convention, or even an evangelistic rally. ![[clap2]](graemlins/clap2.gif)
The church is the body of Christ (1 Cor. 12:27), and church meetings are for corporate worship and instruction. The church's only legitimate goal is "the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ" (Eph. 4:12)—not mere numerical expansion. The notion that church meetings should be used to tantalize or convert non-Christians is a relatively recent development. Nothing like it is found in Scripture; in fact, the apostle Paul spoke of unbelievers' entering the assembly as an exceptional event (1 Cor. 14:23). Hebrews 10:24-25 indicates that church services are for the benefit of believers, not unbelievers: "Let us consider how to stimulate one another to love and good deeds, not forsaking our own assembling together."
Acts 2:42 shows us the pattern the early church followed when they met: "They were continually devoting themselves to the apostles' teaching and to fellowship, to the breaking of bread and to prayer." Note that the early church's priorities clearly were to worship God and uplift the brethren. The church came together for worship and edification; it scattered to evangelize the world.
Thank you helpforhomeschoolers, it is always a pleasure posting with you . ![[hyper]](graemlins/hyper.gif)
![[dance]](graemlins/dance1.gif)
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JAVA, "And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are called according to his purpose."
Posts: 147 | From: Columbia South Carolina | Registered: Apr 2005
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HisGrace
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by hardcore:
He does not teach sin and repentance.
I have just heard a few of his sermons, so I don't feel qualified enough to make a comment on whether he preaches on sin or not.(This was a few months ago)
I do know, however,that he does give an invitation to his viewers at the end of every broadcast. In his forgiveness statement he seems to make it very clear about his standing on sin.
I guess you didn't see this comment that I made on another thread hardcore.
"Joel Osteen has been accused of not talking about sin. He always gives an invitation after his broadcasts for viewers to come to Christ.
It goes like this. "Lord Jesus, I repent of my sins. I ask you to come into my heart. I make you the Lord of my life."
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HisGrace
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quote:
Originally posted by hardcore:
Surely this is not how you measure the success of a pastor? He does not teach sin and repentance. What part of this are people not understanding? Money and big stadiums don't increase the kingdom, preaching sound doctrine does.
Amen - I think this is what Joel is saying. He doesn't have to worry about begging for money - it just comes in. He can concentrate on preaching The Word.
Joel Osteen could never have imagined his congregation could have grown this much - it is just happening. He has to accommodate the great demand some way. I believe it is of God.
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hardcore
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quote:
Originally posted by HisGrace:
Portion of Interview with Larry King -
KING; Are you asking for money?
OSTEEN: We never have. Never have. Since my dad started. I started a television ministry for my father back in '83. That was one decision we made. We just don't ask for money. We never have, we never will. You know, it's -- I don't criticize people that do. Some of them have to. But I just, I don't want anything to pull away from the message.
KING: How do you get the money to get the time on television?
OSTEEN: The church supports it.
KING: How does the church get the money?
OSTEEN: Well, they just give. There are just a lot of them, they're faithful, they're loyal people, they believe in giving. And the other thing too, what's interesting, Larry, we don't ask for money on television. But people see your heart. People send in money like you wouldn't imagine to underwrite it. KING: Really? Without your ever saying order this medal?
OSTEEN: Exactly. It's a testament to, you know, I think if people can see your heart is right. I'm certainly not the only one. But I don't get on there and beg for money. People send it in. You'd be amazed.
KING: Do you think there's too much of that, send in this, my new book is out?
OSTEEN: I think in general there probably is. Because people are so skeptical anyway. Why are you on there? You just want my money. We just try to stay away from it. I don't know if there is or not. To me sometimes I think, you know. I would -- I think people get on and they have to make the television audience underwrite it. And then they spend their time doing that.
Surely this is not how you measure the success of a pastor? He does not teach sin and repentance. What part of this are people not understanding? Money and big stadiums don't increase the kingdom, preaching sound doctrine does.
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hardcore
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Hello! Is anybody out there? Surely Linda and I are not the only two who recognize that this is a serious problem.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
"Hybel's consumer-driven approach is evident at Willow Creek, where he shunned stained glass, Bibles, or even a cross for the 7,200-seat, $72 million sanctuary he recently built."
Anyone going to step up and defend this one?
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
"Like Osteen, Hybel packages self-help programs with a positive message intended to make people feel good about themselves. "When I walk out of a service, I feel completely relieved of any stress I walked in with," says Phil Earnest, 38, a sales manager who in 2003 switched to Willow Creek from the Methodist Church he found too stodgy."
I'm glad to know that this guy feels relieved when he leaves church. After all, that is why we go to church isn't it? Do you think it was because he recognized his sin, repented, and has allowed God's grace to wash that stress right out of his hair? Or did he get a self-help pep talk?
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"So adept at the sell are some evangelicals that it can be difficult to distinguish between their religious aims and the secular style they mimic."
Anyone see a problem with this?
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"Such marketing and services help to create brand loyalty any CEO would envy."
Not loyalty to Christ, loyalty to a pastor and his church.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Wake. Up. Church.
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helpforhomeschoolers
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But Does It Work?
Truth Vs. Technique
by
John MacArthur
All Rights Reserved
Toward the end of the nineteenth century. . . the Age of Exposition began to pass, and the early signs of its replacement could be discerned. Its replacement was to be the Age of Show Business.
Neil Postman1
In this Age of Show Business, truth is irrelevant; what really matters is whether we are entertained. Substance counts for little; style is everything. In the words of Marshall McLuhan, the medium is the message. Unfortunately, that kind of thinking rules the church as surely as it does the world.
A. W. Tozer wrote these words in 1955:
For centuries the Church stood solidly against every form of worldly entertainment, recognizing it for what it was—a device for wasting time, a refuge from the disturbing voice of conscience, a scheme to divert attention from moral accountability. For this she got herself abused roundly by the sons of this world. But of late she has become tired of the abuse and has given over the struggle. She appears to have decided that if she cannot conquer the great god Entertainment she may as well join forces with him and make what use she can of his powers. So today we have the astonishing spectacle of millions of dollars being poured into the unholy job of providing earthly entertainment for the so-called sons of heaven. Religious entertainment is in many places rapidly crowding out the serious things of God. Many churches these days have become little more than poor theaters where fifth-rate "producers" peddle their shoddy wares with the full approval of evangelical leaders who can even quote a holy text in defense of their delinquency. And hardly a man dares raise his voice against it. 2
By today's standards, the issues that so inflamed Tozer's passions seem trifling. For example, churches were attracting people to Sunday evening services by showing Christian films. Young people's rallies featured up-tempo music and speakers whose specialty was humor. High-energy games and activities were beginning to play a key role in church youth work. Looking back, it may seem difficult to understand Tozer's distress. Hardly anyone these days would be shocked or concerned about any of the methods that seemed radically innovative in the fifties. Most of them are generally regarded as conventional today.
Tozer, however, was not condemning games, music styles, or movies per se. He was concerned with the philosophy underlying what was happening in the church. He was sounding an alarm about a deadly change of focus. He saw evangelicals using entertainment as a tool for church growth, and he believed that was subverting the church's priorities. He feared that frivolous diversions and carnal amusements in the church would eventually destroy people's appetites for real worship and the preaching of God's Word.
He was right about that. In fact, Tozer's rebuke is more fitting than ever as the church approaches the end of the century. The incipient trend he identified has come into full bloom in our generation. What the church was flirting with thirty-five years ago has now become an obsession.
A recent article in The Wall Street Journal described one well-known church's bid "to perk up attendance at Sunday evening services." The church "staged a wrestling match, featuring church employees. To train for the event, 10 game employees got lessons from Tugboat Taylor, a former professional wrestler, in pulling hair, kicking shins and tossing bodies around without doing real harm."3 No harm to the staff members, perhaps, but what is the effect of such an exhibition on the church's message? Is not the gospel itself clouded and badly caricatured by such tomfoolery? Can you imagine what Tozer would have thought?
That wrestling match is not an obscure example from some eccentric church on the fringe. It took place in the Sunday evening service of one of America's five largest churches. Similar examples could be drawn from many of the leading churches supposedly in the mainstream of evangelical orthodoxy.
Some will maintain that if biblical principles are presented, the medium doesn't matter. That is nonsense. If an entertaining medium is the key to winning people, why not go all out? Why not have a real carnival? A tattooed acrobat on a high wire could juggle chain saws and shout Bible verses while a trained dog balanced on his head. That would draw a crowd. And the content of the message would be thoroughly biblical. It's a bizarre scenario, but one that illustrates how the medium can cheapen and corrupt the message.
And sadly, it's not terribly different from what is actually being done in some churches. There seems no limit to what modern church leaders will do to entice people who aren't interested in worship and preaching.
One noted pastor of a very large church, for example, boasts about the time his staff staged a pie fight during a Sunday morning church service.
Just how far will the church go to compete with Hollywood? A large church in the southwestern United States has installed a half-million-dollar special-effects system that can produce smoke, fire, sparks, and laser lights in the auditorium. The church sent staff members to study live special effects at Bally's Casino in Las Vegas. The pastor ended one service by ascending to "heaven" via invisible wires that drew him up out of sight while the choir and orchestra added a musical accompaniment to the smoke, fire, and light show.4 It was just a typical Sunday show for that pastor: "He packs his church with such special effects as. . . cranking up a chain saw and toppling a tree to make a point. . . the biggest Fourth of July fireworks display in town and a Christmas service with a rented elephant, kangaroo and zebra. The Christmas show features 100 clowns with gifts for the congregation's children."5
Shenanigans like that would have been the stuff of A. W. Tozer's worst nightmares. Surely even he could not have foreseen the extreme to which evangelicals would go in paying homage to the great god Entertainment.
Driven by Pragmatism
There's no denying that these antics seem to work—that is, they draw a crowd. Many churches that have experimented with such methods report growing attendance figures. And a handful of megachurches—those that can afford first-class productions, effects, and facilities—have been able to stimulate enormous numerical growth. Some of them fill huge auditoriums with thousands of people several times every week.
A few of these megachurches resemble elegant country clubs or resort hotels. They feature impressive facilities with bowling lanes, movie theaters, health spas, restaurants, ballrooms, roller-skating rinks, and state-of-the-art multi-court gymnasiums. Recreation and entertainment are inevitably the most visible aspects of these enterprises. Such churches have become meccas for students of church growth.
Now evangelicals everywhere are frantically seeking new techniques and new forms of entertainment to attract people. Whether a method is biblical or not scarcely matters to the average church leader today. Does it work? That is the new test of legitimacy. And so raw pragmatism has become the driving philosophy in much of the professing church.
Pragmatism is the notion that ideas may be judged by their practical consequences. A pragmatist concludes that a course of action or concept is right if it brings good results, wrong if it doesn't seem to work.
What's wrong with pragmatism? After all, common sense involves a measure of legitimate pragmatism, doesn't it? If a dripping faucet works fine after you replace the washers, for example, it is reasonable to assume that bad washers were the problem. If the medicine your doctor prescribes produces harmful side effects or has no effect at all, you need to ask if there's a remedy that works. Such simple pragmatic realities are generally self-evident.
But when pragmatism becomes a guiding philosophy of life or ministry, it inevitably clashes with Scripture. Spiritual and biblical truth cannot be determined by what works and what doesn't. We know from Scripture, for example, that the gospel does not usually produce a positive response (1 Cor. 1:22-23; 2:14). On the other hand, Satanic lies and deception often are quite effective (Matt. 24:23-24; 2 Cor. 4:3-4). Majority reaction is no test of validity (cf. Matt. 7:13-14), and prosperity is no measure of truthfulness (cf. Job 12:6). Pragmatism as a guiding philosophy of ministry is inherently flawed.6
Nevertheless, an overpowering surge of ardent pragmatism is sweeping through evangelicalism. Methodology has replaced theology as the main issue many church leaders are concerned with. Pastors are turning to books on marketing methods in search of new techniques to help churches grow. Many seminaries have shifted their pastoral training emphasis from Bible curriculum and theology to matters of style and technique.
Perhaps most telling is the growing number of churches that now feature drama and entertainment instead of traditional services where God's Word is proclaimed. The new pragmatism sees preaching as passé. Plainly declaring truth is deemed too offensive and utterly ineffective. We're now told we can get better results by first amusing people and thus wooing them into the fold. Once they feel comfortable, they'll be ready to receive biblical truth in small, diluted doses.
Gimme That Showtime Religion
And so church buildings are being constructed like theaters; instead of a pulpit, the focus is a stage. Churches are hiring full-time media specialists, programming consultants, stage directors, drama coaches, special-effects experts, and choreographers.
Most of the new pragmatists believe the four priorities of the early church—the apostles' teaching, fellowship, the breaking of bread, and prayer (Acts 2:42)—make a lame agenda for the church in this day and age. They view our Lord's Great Commission as a marketing manifesto. They believe the church is in business to promote a product, and church leaders, they say, had better pay attention to the methods of Madison Avenue. The church, after all, competes with secular amusements and a host of worldly goods and services. We'll never win people, the pragmatists believe, until we develop effective marketing campaigns to capture their attention and loyalty away from the world's offerings.
One best-selling author has written, "I believe that developing a marketing orientation is precisely what the Church needs to do if we are to make a difference in the spiritual health of this nation for the remainder of this century."7 He adds, "My contention, based on careful study of data and the activities of American churches, is that the major problem plaguing the Church is its failure to embrace a marketing orientation in what has become a marketing-driven environment."8
What's wrong with that? For one thing, the church has no business marketing its ministry as an alternative to secular amusements (2 Thess. 3:3-4). That corrupts and cheapens the church's real mission. We are not carnival barkers, used car salesmen, or K-Tel pitchmen. We are Christ's ambassadors (2 Cor. 5:20). Knowing the terror of the Lord (v. 11), motivated by the love of Christ (v. 14), utterly made new by Him (v. 17), we implore sinners to be reconciled to God (v. 20).
Moreover, instead of confronting the world with the truth of Christ, the market-driven megachurches are enthusiastically promoting the worst trends of secular culture. Feeding people's appetite for entertainment only exacerbates the problems of mindless emotion, apathy, and materialism. Quite frankly, it is difficult to conceive of a ministry philosophy more contradictory to the pattern our Lord gave us.
Proclaiming the gospel message of redemption for sinners, and expositing the Word for saints should be the heart of every church's ministry. If the world looks at the church and sees an entertainment center, we're sending the wrong message. If Christians view the church as an amusement parlor, the church will die.
Nothing in Scripture indicates the church should lure people to Christ by presenting Christianity as an attractive option. Nothing about the gospel is optional: "There is salvation in no one else. . . there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men, by which we must be saved" (Acts 4:12). Nor is the gospel meant to be attractive in the sense of modern marketing. To most, the message of the gospel is "a stone of stumbling and a rock of offense" (Rom. 9:33; 1 Pet. 2:8). There's no way to "market" that. The church must realize that its mission has never been public relations or sales; we are called to live holy lives and declare God's truth—lovingly but uncompromisingly—to an unbelieving world.
Is Numerical Growth a Legitimate Goal?
Lest anyone misunderstand, perhaps I should say that I am no opponent of large churches or of church growth. Grace Community Church was founded more than thirty-five years ago and has experienced tremendous growth through most of its history. On a typical Sunday about ten thousand people attend our services. We have experienced cycles of growth followed by plateaus. We're currently in another phase of strong growth.
What I oppose is the pragmatism often advocated by church growth specialists who believe they can induce numerical growth by following whatever techniques seem to be working at the moment. The faddism bred by that philosophy is becoming more and more unruly. It is diverting many churches from biblical priorities, while producing a handful of megachurches whose growth is dependent on their ability to anticipate and respond to the next cultural trend. The church has been drawn away from true revival and is being seduced by those who advocate the popularization of Christianity. Tragically, most Christians seem oblivious to the problem, satisfied with a Christianity that is fashionable and highly visible.
Is numerical growth a legitimate goal in church ministry? Certainly no worthy church leader would seriously argue that numerical growth is inherently undesirable. And no one believes that stagnation or numerical decline are to be sought. But is numerical growth always the best gauge of a church's health?
I agree with George Peters, who wrote,
Quantitative growth. . . can be deceptive. It may be no more than the mushrooming of a mechanically induced, psychological or social movement, a numerical count, an agglomeration of individuals or groups, an increase of a body without the development of muscle and vital organs. It may be Christendom in the making but not Christianity breaking through. Many mass movements of the past and community and tribal movements have been just that. An example is found in the mass accessions in Europe, particularly in France and Russia, when many were driven to baptism and drawn into the church, resulting in a mass of people professing Christendom but not in a dynamic, vibrant, growing, and responsible church of Jesus Christ. . . . It must be admitted. . . that to a great extent this expansion of the form, profession, and name of Christendom has little resemblance to the Christianity defined in the New Testament and the church portrayed in the book of Acts.
In many ways the expansion of Christendom has come at the expense of the purity of the gospel and true Christian order and life. The church has become infested with pagan beliefs and practices, and is syncretistic in theology. . . Large segments have become Christo-pagan. 9
Nothing in Scripture indicates that church leaders should set numerical goals for church growth.10 Here's how the apostle Paul described the growth process: "I planted, Apollos watered, but God was causing the growth. So then neither the one who plants nor the one who waters is anything, but God who causes the growth" (1 Cor. 3:6-7, emphasis added).
If we concern ourselves with the depth of our ministry, God will see to the breadth of it.
What good, after all, is numerical expansion that is not rooted in commitment to the lordship of Christ? If people come to church primarily because they find it entertaining, they will surely leave as soon as something comes along to amuse them more. And so the church is forced into a hopeless cycle where it must constantly try to eclipse each spectacle with something bigger and better.
The Pragmatic Roots of the Church Growth Movement
Pragmatism as a philosophy of ministry has gained impetus from the church growth movement that has flourished over the past fifty years or so. Donald McGavran, the father of the modern church growth movement, was an unabashed pragmatist:
We devise mission methods and policies in the light of what God has blessed—and what He has obviously not blessed. Industry calls this "modifying operation in light of feedback." Nothing hurts missions overseas so much as continuing methods, institutions, and policies which ought to bring men to Christ—but don't; which ought to multiply churches—but don't. We teach men to be ruthless in regard to method. If it does not work to the glory of God and the extension of Christ's church, throw it away and get something which does. As to methods, we are fiercely pragmatic—doctrine is something else.11
As a young missionary in India and son of missionary parents, McGavran had noticed that it was not unusual for missions organizations to labor in India for years and have little or no fruit to show for it. McGavran's own agency had planted only twenty or thirty small churches in several decades of missionary work.12 McGavran determined to devise a strategy of missions that took note of which methods seemed to work and which ones didn't. "As he declared in the preface to a book he coauthored in the 1930s, he had dedicated himself to 'discarding theories of church growth which do not work, and learning and practicing productive patterns. . . '"13
McGavran's pragmatism seems to have been initially prompted by a legitimate concern for stewardship. He "became alarmed when he saw all too many of God's resources—personnel and finances—being used without asking whether the kingdom of God was being advanced by the programs they were supporting."14 But pragmatism became the philosophical basis for nearly all that McGavran taught, and that in turn set the agenda for the whole church growth movement.
McGavran founded the Institute of Church Growth, which in 1965 united with the Fuller School of World Mission. From there the pragmatic precepts of the church growth movement have reached into virtually every mission field worldwide.
C. Peter Wagner, professor of church growth at the Fuller School of World Mission, is Donald McGavran's best-known student. Wagner is the most prolific if not the most influential spokesman in the church growth movement today. He writes of the movement's inherent pragmatism:
The Church Growth Movement has always stressed pragmatism, and still does even though many have criticized it. It is not the kind of pragmatism that compromises doctrine or ethics or the kind that dehumanizes people by using them as means toward an end. It is, however, the kind of consecrated pragmatism which ruthlessly examines traditional methodologies and programs asking the tough questions. If some sort of ministry in the church is not reaching intended goals, consecrated pragmatism says there is something wrong which needs to be corrected.15
Wagner, like most in the church growth movement, claims that the "consecrated pragmatism" he advocates does not allow compromise of doctrine or ethics. "The Bible does not allow us to sin that grace may abound or to use whatever means that God has prohibited in order to accomplish those ends He has recommended," he notes correctly.16
"But with this proviso," Wagner continues, "we ought to see clearly that the end does justify the means. What else possibly could justify the means? If the method I am using accomplishes the goal I am aiming at, it is for that reason a good method. If, on the other hand, my method is not accomplishing the goal, how can I be justified in continuing to use it?"17
Is that true? Certainly not. Especially if "the goal I am aiming at" is a numerical goal with no biblical warrant, or if "my method. . . not accomplishing the goal" is the clear preaching of God's Word. That is precisely the kind of thinking that is moving biblical exposition out of Christian ministry and replacing it with vaudeville.
One recent best-seller goes even further:
It is. . . critical that we keep in mind a fundamental principle of Christian communication: the audience, not the message, is sovereign. If our advertising is going to stop people in the midst of hectic schedules and cause them to think about what we're saying, our message has to be adapted to the needs of the audience. When we produce advertising that is based on the take-it-or-leave-it proposition, rather than on a sensitivity and response to people's needs, people will invariably reject our message. 18
What if the Old Testament prophets had subscribed to such a philosophy? Jeremiah, for example, preached forty years without seeing any significant positive response. On the contrary, his countrymen threatened to kill him if he did not stop prophesying (Jer. 11:19-23); his own family and friends plotted against him (12:6); he was not permitted to marry and so had to suffer agonizing loneliness (16:2); plots were devised to kill him secretly (18:20-23); he was beaten and put in stocks (20:1-2); he was spied on by friends who sought revenge (v. 10); he was consumed with sorrow and shame—even cursing the day he was born (vv. 14-18); and finally, falsely accused of being a traitor to the nation (37:13-14), Jeremiah was beaten, thrown into a dungeon, and starved many days (vv. 15-21). If an Ethiopian Gentile had not interceded on his behalf, Jeremiah would have died there. In the end, tradition says he was exiled to Egypt, where he was stoned to death by the Jews. He had virtually no converts to show for a lifetime of ministry.
Suppose Jeremiah had attended a church growth seminar and learned a pragmatic philosophy of ministry. Do you think he would have changed his style of confrontational ministry? Can you imagine him staging a variety show or using comedy to try to win people's affections? He may have learned to gather an appreciative crowd, but he certainly would not have had the ministry God called him to.
The apostle Paul didn't use a system based on merchandising skill, either, though some self-appointed experts have tried to make him a model of the new pragmatism. Reading into the Bible's white space, one advocate of marketing technique asserts, "Paul was one of the all time great tacticians. He perpetually studied strategies and tactics to identify those that would enable him to attract the most 'prospects' and realize the greatest number of conversions."19 Of course, the Bible says nothing like that. On the contrary, the apostle Paul shunned clever methods and gimmicks that might proselyte people to false conversions through fleshly persuasion. Paul himself wrote,
When I came to you, brethren, I did not come with superiority of speech or of wisdom, proclaiming to you the testimony of God. For I determined to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ, and Him crucified. And I was with you in weakness and in fear and in much trembling. And my message and my preaching were not in persuasive words of wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power, that your faith should not rest on the wisdom of men, but on the power of God (1 Cor. 2:1-5).
He reminded the church at Thessalonica,
For our exhortation does not come from error or impurity or by way of deceit; but just as we have been approved by God to be entrusted with the gospel, so we speak, not as pleasing men but God, who examines our hearts. For we never came with flattering speech, as you know, nor with a pretext for greed—God is witness—nor did we seek glory from men, either from you or from others, even though as apostles of Christ we might have asserted our authority (1 Thess. 2:3-6).
Biblical truth is the only framework by which we can evaluate the rightness or wrongness of ministry methods.
Any end-justifies-the-means philosophy of ministry inevitably will compromise doctrine, despite any proviso to the contrary. If we make effectiveness the gauge of right and wrong, how can that fail to color our doctrine? Ultimately the pragmatist's notion of truth is shaped by what seems effective, not by the objective revelation of Scripture.
A look at the methodology of the church growth movement shows how this occurs. The movement studies all growing churches—even those with false doctrine at the core of their teaching. Sometimes Mormon assemblies, Roman Catholic churches, even Jehovah's Witness Kingdom Halls are held up to the specialist's scrutiny. The church growth expert looks for characteristics common to all growing churches and advocates whatever methods seem to work.
Are we to believe that growth in non-Christian congregations is proof that God is at work? Why would we want to duplicate the methodology of religious groups that deny the gospel? Isn't it fair to question whether any growth resulting from such methods is illegitimate, engineered by fleshly means? After all, if a method works as well for a cult as it does for the people of God, there's no reason to assume positive results signify God's blessing.
Utterly missing from most of the church growth literature is any critical analysis of the faulty doctrinal platform on which much contemporary church growth is built. One author has said of Peter Wagner:
Wagner makes negative assessments about nobody. He has made a career out of finding what is good in growing churches, and affirming it—without asking many critical questions. This enables him to hold up as models of church life not only Wimber's Vineyard, but Schuller's Crystal Cathedral, the entire Southern Baptist denomination, and just about any other church that is growing. 20
The fact that a church is growing is often mistaken for divine sanction. After all, people reason, why be critical of any teaching that God is blessing with numerical growth? Is it not better to tolerate doctrinal flaws and lapses of orthodoxy for the sake of growth and unity? Thus pragmatism molds and shapes one's doctrinal outlook.
Wagner himself, for example, has embraced the signs and wonders of the Third Wave movement for reasons that are largely pragmatic. He is candid about this:
I am proud to be among those who are advocating power evangelism as an important tool for fulfilling the great commission in our day. One of the reasons I am so enthusiastic is that it is working. Across the board, the most effective evangelism in today's world is accompanied by manifestations of supernatural power. 21
Obviously, then, Wagner's pragmatic perspective has shaped his doctrine, not vice versa.
Wagner virtually concedes this point. He says the methodology of the church growth movement is "phenomenological," not theological. That approach "may appear altogether too subjective to many traditional theologians," he admits.22 He continues, "As a starting point, church growth often looks to the 'is' previous to the 'ought'. . . . What Christians experience about God's work in the world and in their lives is not always preceded by careful theological rationalizations. Many times the sequence is just the opposite: theology is shaped by Christian experience."23
That being the case, isn't Wagner's assertion that his pragmatism "is not the kind. . . that compromises doctrine"24 rendered meaningless? After all, if experience suggests signs and wonders are effective tools for church growth, and if it is legitimate to allow our experience to shape our theology, it is quite logical to amend one's doctrine—as Wagner himself did—to accommodate some pragmatic, heuristic observation.
It is folly to think one can be both pragmatic and biblical. The pragmatist wants to know what works now. The biblical thinker cares only about what the Bible says. The two philosophies inevitably oppose each other at the most basic level.
The Age of Pragmatism
Nevertheless, philosophical pragmatism has never been more popular in evangelical churches. The church growth movement, which for years was a major factor in world missionary activity, is now having enormous influence in the backyard of Western evangelicalism. North American churches by the hundreds are experimenting with pragmatic methodologies, and the result has been an explosion of interest in innovative church growth techniques. The church growth movement has formed an unofficial alliance with those who believe evangelism is primarily a marketing venture.
Pragmatism in the church reflects the spirit of our age. Books with titles like Marketing Your Ministry, Marketing the Church, and The Development of Effective Marketing and Communication Strategies for Churches are all the rage. The Christian publishing industry is now producing more advice for church leaders drawn from secular fields of study—psychology, marketing, management, politics, entertainment, and business—than all the commentaries, Bible study helps, and books on biblical issues put together.
The role model for contemporary pastors is not the prophet or the shepherd—it is the corporate executive or the politician. The contemporary church is preoccupied with corporate image, statistical growth, financial profit, opinion polls, demographic charts, census figures, and other pragmatic issues. Gone is the church's passion for purity and truth. No one seems to care, as long as the response is enthusiastic.
Tozer noticed that pragmatism had crept into the church of his day, too. He wrote, "I say without hesitation that a part, a very large part, of the activities carried on today in evangelical circles are not only influenced by pragmatism but almost completely controlled by it."25 Tozer described the danger posed to the church by even so-called "consecrated" pragmatism:
The pragmatic philosophy. . . asks no embarrassing questions about the wisdom of what we are doing or even about the morality of it. It accepts our chosen ends as right and good and casts about for efficient means and ways to get them accomplished. When it discovers something that works it soon finds a text to justify it, "consecrates" it to the Lord and plunges ahead. Next a magazine article is written about it, then a book, and finally the inventor is granted an honorary degree. After that any question about the scripturalness of things or even the moral validity of them is completely swept away. You cannot argue with success. The method works; ergo, it must be good. 26
User-Friendly Churches?
Now the experts are touting the concept of the "user-friendly church."27 Borrowing a term from the high-tech industries, church growth specialists are advocating a new approach to church ministry. Church growth can be accelerated, they say, if pastors and church leaders will concentrate their energies on making the church as non-threatening as possible for the unchurched. Provide non-Christians with an agreeable, inoffensive environment. Give them freedom, tolerance, and anonymity. Always be positive and benevolent. If you must have a sermon, keep it brief and amusing. Don't be preachy or authoritative. Above all, keep everyone entertained. Churches following this pattern will see numerical growth, we're assured; those that ignore it are doomed to decline.
Do you see how that philosophy necessarily undermines sound doctrine? It discards Jesus' own methods—preaching and teaching—as the primary means of ministry. It replaces them with methodologies utterly devoid of substance. It exists independently of any creed or canon. In fact, it eschews dogma or strong convictions as divisive, unbecoming, or inappropriate. It dismisses doctrine as academic, abstract, sterile, threatening, or simply impractical. Rather than teaching error or denying truth, it does something far more subtle, but just as effective from the enemy's point of view. It jettisons content altogether. Instead of attacking orthodoxy head on, it gives lip service to the truth while quietly undermining the foundations of doctrine. Instead of exalting God, it denigrates the things that are precious to Him. In that regard, pragmatism poses dangers more subtle than the liberalism that threatened the church in the first half of the century.
A major Christian magazine recently published an article by a well-known charismatic speaker. He mused for a full page about the futility of both preaching and listening to sermons that go beyond mere entertainment. His conclusion? People don't remember what you say anyway, so most preaching is a waste of time. "I'm going to try to do better next year," he writes; "that means wasting less time listening to long sermons and spending much more time preparing short ones. People, I've discovered, will forgive even poor theology as long as they get out before noon."28
That perfectly sums up the attitude that dominates much of modern ministry. It is sheer accommodation to a society addicted to entertainment. It follows what is fashionable but reveals little concern for what is true.
A recent best-selling Christian book warns readers to be on guard against preachers whose emphasis is on interpreting Scripture rather than applying it.
Wait a minute. Is that wise counsel? No it is not. There is no danger of irrelevant doctrine; the real threat is an undoctrinal attempt at relevance. The nucleus of all that is truly practical is found in the teaching of Scripture. We don't make the Bible relevant; it is inherently so, simply because it is God's Word. And after all, how can anything God says be irrelevant (2 Tim. 3:16-17)?
The radical pragmatism of the "user-friendly" school of thought robs the church of its prophetic role. It makes the church a populist organization, recruiting members by providing them a warm and friendly atmosphere in which to eat, drink, and be entertained. The church becomes more like a saloon than a house of worship.
That is no overstatement. One recent best-selling book advocating pragmatic church-growth ideas included this suggestion:
Remember how the corner tavern used to be the place where the men of the neighborhood would congregate to watch major sports events, like the World Series or championship boxing matches? While times have changed, that same concept can still be used to great impact by the Church. Most churches have a large hall or auditorium which could be used for special gatherings built around major media events—sports, political debates, entertainment specials and the like.29
That entire scenario is built on a set of presuppositions that are patently unbiblical. The church is not a lodge recruiting members. It is not a pub for the neighborhood. It is not a frat house enlisting pledges. It is not a community center where parties are held. It is not a country club for the masses. It is not a city precinct meeting where the community's problems are addressed. It is not a court to rectify society's injustices. It is not an open forum, or a political convention, or even an evangelistic rally.
The church is the body of Christ (1 Cor. 12:27), and church meetings are for corporate worship and instruction. The church's only legitimate goal is "the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ" (Eph. 4:12)—not mere numerical expansion. The notion that church meetings should be used to tantalize or convert non-Christians is a relatively recent development. Nothing like it is found in Scripture; in fact, the apostle Paul spoke of unbelievers' entering the assembly as an exceptional event (1 Cor. 14:23). Hebrews 10:24-25 indicates that church services are for the benefit of believers, not unbelievers: "Let us consider how to stimulate one another to love and good deeds, not forsaking our own assembling together."
Acts 2:42 shows us the pattern the early church followed when they met: "They were continually devoting themselves to the apostles' teaching and to fellowship, to the breaking of bread and to prayer." Note that the early church's priorities clearly were to worship God and uplift the brethren. The church came together for worship and edification; it scattered to evangelize the world.
Our Lord commissioned His disciples for evangelism in this way: "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations" (Matt. 28:19). Christ makes it clear that the church is not to wait for or invite the world to come to its meetings, but to go to the world. That is every believer's responsibility. I fear that an approach emphasizing a palatable gospel presentation within the walls of the church absolves the individual believer from his personal obligation to be a light in the world (Matt. 5:16).
The preaching of God's Word is to be central in the church (1 Cor. 1:23; 9:16; 2 Cor. 4:5; 1 Tim. 6:2; 2 Tim. 4:2). "In season and out of season," it is the task of God's ministers to "reprove, rebuke, exhort, with great patience and instruction" (2 Tim. 4:2). The pastor who sets entertainment above forceful preaching abdicates the primary responsibility of an elder: "holding fast the faithful word which is in accordance with the teaching, that he may be able both to exhort in sound doctrine and to refute those who contradict" (Titus 1:9).
I've often been curious about how advocates of user-friendly methodology deal with the account of Ananias and Sapphira in Acts 5. They lied, so God struck them both dead in front of the entire Jerusalem church. Acts 5:11 says, "Great fear came upon the whole church, and upon all who heard of these things." It's hard to reconcile that with the concept of a user-friendly church. Yet the early church continued to grow exponentially. Verse 14 goes on to say, "All the more believers in the Lord, multitudes of men and women, were constantly added to their number."
The church's strategy has never been to appeal to the world on the world's terms. Churches aren't supposed to compete for the consumer on the same level as Miller Lite or MTV. We can't stimulate genuine growth by clever persuasion or inventive techniques. It is the Lord who adds to the church (Acts 2:47). Human methodologies cannot accelerate or supersede the divine process. Any additional growth they produce is a barren imitation.
Artificial or unnatural growth in the biological realm can cause disfigurement—or worse, cancer. Synthetic growth in the spiritual realm is every bit as unhealthy.
Good Technique? No, Bad Theology.
The philosophy that marries marketing technique with church growth theory is the result of bad theology. It assumes that if you package the gospel right, people will get saved. It is rooted in Arminianism, which views conversion as nothing more than an act of the human will. Its goal is an instantaneous human decision, rather than a radical transformation of the heart wrought by almighty God through the Holy Spirit's convicting work and the truth of His Word. An honest belief in the sovereignty of God in salvation would bring an end to a lot of the nonsense that is going on in the church.
Moreover, this whole ad-agency approach to the church corrupts Christianity and caters to the fleshly lusts that are woven into the very fabric of this world's system (1 Jn. 2:14). We have a society filled with people who want what they want when they want it. They are into their own lifestyle, recreation, and entertainment. When churches appeal to those selfish desires, they only fuel fires that hinder true godliness.
The church has accommodated our culture by devising a brand of Christianity where taking up one's cross is optional—or even unseemly. Indeed, many members of the church in the Western world suppose they can best serve God by being as non-confrontive to their world as possible.
Having absorbed the world's values, Christianity in our society is now dying. Subtly but surely, worldliness and self-indulgence are eating away the heart of the church. The gospel usually proclaimed today is so convoluted that it offers believing in Christ as nothing more than a means to contentment and prosperity. The offense of the cross (cf. Gal. 5:11) has been systematically removed so that the message might be made more acceptable to unbelievers. The church somehow got the idea it could declare peace with the enemies of God.
When on top of that punk-rockers, ventriloquists' dummies, clowns, knife-throwers, professional wrestlers, weight-lifters, body-builders, comedians, dancers, jugglers, rapmasters, and show-business celebrities take the place of the preacher, the gospel message is dealt a catastrophic blow. "How shall they hear without a preacher?" (Rom. 10:14).
I do believe we can be innovative and creative in how we present the gospel, but we have to be careful to harmonize our methods with the profound spiritual truth we are trying to convey. It is too easy to trivialize the sacred message.
Don't be quick to embrace the trends of the high-tech megachurches. And don't sneer at conventional worship and preaching. We don't need clever approaches to get people saved (1 Cor. 1:21). We simply need to get back to preaching the truth and planting the seed. If we're faithful in that, the soil God has prepared will bear fruit.
But if the church in America does not get back to biblical Christianity, we will soon see the end of our influence for Christ. Everyone is astonished to see how rapidly the face of the modern world is changing. What few Christians seem to realize is how frighteningly fast the church is declining at the same time. We may be witnessing the last days of biblical evangelicalism in our nation. It is not really far fetched to imagine that ten years hence, missionaries from Romania might be evangelizing America.
The reality of that possibility greatly alarms me. We who know and love the truth must be the prophetic voice of our God and affirm the holiness of His Name. We must demand that any effort in the name of our Lord manifest the integrity of His nature. He is holy, holy, holy (Isa. 6:3) and must be so represented. Anything less is not worthy of our Lord's majesty, awesomeness, and holiness.
The challenge for Christ's church is this: "Let us cleanse ourselves from all defilement of flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God" (2 Cor. 7:1). It isn't the cleverness of our methods, the techniques of our ministry, or the wit of our sermons that puts power in our testimony. It is obedience to a holy God and faithfulness to His holiness in our daily lives.
We must wake up. The cold war may be over, but the spiritual battle rages on. We cannot afford to be indifferent. We cannot continue our mad pursuit of pleasure and self-gratification. We are called to fight a spiritual battle, and we cannot win by appeasing the enemy. A needy world must be confronted with the message of salvation, and there may be little time left. As Paul wrote to the church at Rome,
"It is already the hour for you to awaken from sleep; for now salvation is nearer to us than when we believed. The night is almost gone, and the day is at hand. Let us therefore lay aside the deeds of darkness and put on the armor of light (Rom. 13:11-12).
Once a reporter asked me if I was driven by a desire to build a great church. I responded that I am driven by a great desire to preach the Word (2 Tim. 4:2). Christ said He would build the church (Matt. 16:18), and I certainly don't want to compete with Him.
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Bible Bulletin Board
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Notes
1. Neil Postman, Amusing Ourselves to Death (New York: Penguin, 1985), 63.
2. A. W. Tozer, The Root of the Righteous (Harrisburg, PA: Christian Publications, 1955), 32-33.
3. R. Gustav Niebuhr, "Mighty Fortresses: Megachurches Strive To Be All Things to All Parishioners," The Wall Street Journal (13 May 1991), A:6.
4. Robert Johnson, "Heavenly Gifts: Preaching a Gospel of Acquisitiveness, a Showy Sect Prospers," The Wall Street Journal (11 Dec. 1990), A:1-8.
5. Ibid., A:8.
6. For a further discussion of the dangers of pragmatism, see John F. MacArthur, Our Sufficiency in Christ (Dallas: Word, 1991), 113-165.
7. George Barna, Marketing the Church (Colorado Springs: NavPress, 1988), 13.
8. Ibid., 23.
9. George W. Peters, A Theology of Church Growth (Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 1981), 23-24.
10. cf. C. Peter Wagner, ed., Donald A. McGavran, Understanding Church Growth, Third ed. (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1990), 265-281. Here Wagner and McGavran argue that numerical goal setting is an essential part of a biblical approach to church growth: "Setting membership goals is in accordance with God's eternal purpose. Goal setting in the service of the Great Commission is pleasing to God.... Scripture is solidly on the side of careful planning for church growth" (p. 270). Yet the only passage of Scripture they cite in support of that statement is Acts 18:4-5, 9, which says nothing about the setting of goals, numerical or otherwise.
11. Donald McGavran, "For Such a Time as This," (unpublished address, 1970), cited in C. Peter Wagner, "Pragmatic Strategy for Tomorrow's Mission," in A. R. Tippet, ed., God, Man and Church Growth (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1973), 147.
12. Wagner, ed., Understanding Church Growth, viii-ix.
13. Ibid., ix.
14. Ibid., ix.
15. C. Peter Wagner, Leading Your Church to Growth (Ventura, CA: Regal, 1984), 201
16. C. Peter Wagner, Your Church Can Grow (Ventura, CA: Regal, 1976), 160-61.
17. Ibid., 161 (emphasis in original).
18. Barna, Marketing the Church, 145 (emphasis added).
19. Ibid., 31-32.
20. Tim Stafford, "Testing the Wine from John Wimber's Vineyard," Christianity Today (8 Aug. 1986), 18.
21. C. Peter Wagner, The Third Wave of the Holy Spirit (Ann Arbor: Vine, 1988), 87.
22. C. Peter Wagner, ed., Church Growth: State of the Art (Wheaton: Tyndale, 1986), 33.
23. Ibid.
24. Leading Your Church to Growth, 201.
25. A. W. Tozer, God Tells the Man Who Cares (Harrisburg, PA: Christian Publications, 1970), 71.
26. Ibid., 70.
27. George Barna, User Friendly Churches (Ventura: Regal, 1991).
28. Buckingham, "Wasted Time," Charisma (Dec. 88), 98
29. George Barna, The Frog in the Kettle (Ventura, CA: Regal, 1990), 94-95.
Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002
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Originally posted by helpforhomeschoolers:
God, INC. - Earthly Empires
By William C. Symonds, with Brian Grow in Atlanta and John Cady in New York
BusinessWeek Online
Lakewood shells out $15 million a year.
To keep them coming back, Lakewood offers free financial counseling, low-cost bulk food, even a "fidelity group" for men with "sexual addictions." Demand is brisk for the self-help sessions. Angie Mosqueda, 34, who was brought up a Catholic, says she and her husband, Mark, first went to Lakewood in 2000 when they were on the brink of a divorce. Mark even threw her out of the house after she confessed to infidelity. But over time, Lakewood counselors "really helped us to forgive one another and start all over again," she says.
Amen - that's wonderful. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Portion of Interview with Larry King -
KING; Are you asking for money?
OSTEEN: We never have. Never have. Since my dad started. I started a television ministry for my father back in '83. That was one decision we made. We just don't ask for money. We never have, we never will. You know, it's -- I don't criticize people that do. Some of them have to. But I just, I don't want anything to pull away from the message.
KING: How do you get the money to get the time on television?
OSTEEN: The church supports it.
KING: How does the church get the money?
OSTEEN: Well, they just give. There are just a lot of them, they're faithful, they're loyal people, they believe in giving. And the other thing too, what's interesting, Larry, we don't ask for money on television. But people see your heart. People send in money like you wouldn't imagine to underwrite it. KING: Really? Without your ever saying order this medal?
OSTEEN: Exactly. It's a testament to, you know, I think if people can see your heart is right. I'm certainly not the only one. But I don't get on there and beg for money. People send it in. You'd be amazed.
KING: Do you think there's too much of that, send in this, my new book is out?
OSTEEN: I think in general there probably is. Because people are so skeptical anyway. Why are you on there? You just want my money. We just try to stay away from it. I don't know if there is or not. To me sometimes I think, you know. I would -- I think people get on and they have to make the television audience underwrite it. And then they spend their time doing that.
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God, INC. - Earthly Empires
By William C. Symonds, with Brian Grow in Atlanta and John Cady in New York
BusinessWeek Online
There's no shortage of churches in Houston, deep in the heart of the Bible Belt. So it's surprising that the largest one in the city -- and in the entire country -- is tucked away in a depressed corner most Houstonians would never dream of visiting. Yet 30,000 people endure punishing traffic on the narrow roads leading to Lakewood Church every weekend to hear Pastor Joel Osteen deliver upbeat messages of hope. A youthful-looking 42-year-old with a ready smile, he reassures the thousands who show up at each of his five weekend services that "God has a great future in store for you." His services are rousing affairs that often include his wife, Victoria, leading prayers and his mother, Dodie, discussing passages from the Bible.
Osteen is so popular that he has nearly quadrupled attendance since taking over the pulpit from his late father in 1999, winning over believers from other churches as well as throngs of the "unsaved." Many are drawn first by his ubiquitous presence on television. Each week 7 million people catch the slickly produced broadcast of his Sunday sermons on national cable and network channels, for which Lakewood shells out $15 million a year. Adherents often come clutching a copy of Osteen's best-seller, Your Best Life Now, which has sold 2.5 million copies since its publication last fall.
To keep them coming back, Lakewood offers free financial counseling, low-cost bulk food, even a "fidelity group" for men with "sexual addictions." Demand is brisk for the self-help sessions. Angie Mosqueda, 34, who was brought up a Catholic, says she and her husband, Mark, first went to Lakewood in 2000 when they were on the brink of a divorce. Mark even threw her out of the house after she confessed to infidelity. But over time, Lakewood counselors "really helped us to forgive one another and start all over again," she says.
Disney Look
Osteen's flourishing Lakewood enterprise brought in $55 million in contributions last year, four times the 1999 amount, church officials say. Flush with success, Osteen is laying out $90 million to transform the massive Compaq Center in downtown Houston -- former home of the NBA's Houston Rockets -- into a church that will seat 16,000, complete with a high-tech stage for his TV shows and Sunday School for 5,000 children. After it opens in July, he predicts weekend attendance will rocket to 100,000. Says Osteen: "Other churches have not kept up, and they lose people by not changing with the times."
Pastor Joel is one of a new generation of evangelical entrepreneurs transforming their branch of Protestantism into one of the fastest-growing and most influential religious groups in America. Their runaway success is modeled unabashedly on business. They borrow tools ranging from niche marketing to MBA hiring to lift their share of U.S. churchgoers. Like Osteen, many evangelical pastors focus intently on a huge potential market -- the millions of Americans who have drifted away from mainline Protestant denominations or simply never joined a church in the first place.
To reach these untapped masses, savvy leaders are creating Sunday Schools that look like Disney World (NYSE: DIS - News ) and church cafés with the appeal of Starbucks (NasdaqNM: SBUX - News). Although most hold strict religious views, they scrap staid hymns in favor of multimedia worship and tailor a panoply of services to meet all kinds of consumer needs, from divorce counseling to help for parents of autistic kids. Like Osteen, many offer an upbeat message intertwined with a religious one. To make newcomers feel at home, some do away with standard religious symbolism -- even basics like crosses and pews -- and design churches to look more like modern entertainment halls than traditional places of worship.
Branding Whiz
So successful are some evangelicals that they're opening up branches like so many new Home Depots (NYSE: HD - News) or Subways. This year, the 16.4 million-member Southern Baptist Convention plans to "plant" 1,800 new churches using by-the-book niche-marketing tactics. "We have cowboy churches for people working on ranches, country music churches, even several motorcycle churches aimed at bikers," says Martin King, a spokesman for the Southern Baptists' North American Mission Board.
Branding whizzes that they are, the new church leaders are spreading their ideas through every available outlet. A line of "Biblezines" packages the New Testament in glossy magazines aimed at different market segments -- there's a hip-hop version and one aimed at teen girls. Christian music appeals to millions of youths, some of whom otherwise might never give church a second thought, serving up everything from alternative rock to punk and even "screamo" (they scream religious lyrics). California megachurch pastor Rick Warren's 2002 book, The Purpose-Driven Life, has become the fastest-selling nonfiction book of all time, with more than 23 million copies sold, in part through a novel "pyro marketing" strategy. Then there's the Left Behind phenomenon, a series of action-packed, apocalyptic page-turners about those left on earth after Christ's second coming, selling more than 60 million copies since 1995.
Evangelicals' eager embrace of corporate-style growth strategies is giving them a tremendous advantage in the battle for religious market share, says Roger Finke, a Pennsylvania State University sociology professor and co-author of a new book, The Churching of America, 1776-2005: Winners and Losers in Our Religious Economy. A new Pope has given Catholicism a burst of global publicity, but its nominal membership growth in the U.S. stems largely from the influx of Mexican immigrants. Overall, the Catholic Church's long-term decline in U.S. attendance accelerated after the recent sex-abuse scandals, there's a severe priest shortage, and parish churches and schools are closing in the wake of a financial crisis.
Similarly, the so-called mainline Protestants who dominated 20th century America have become the religious equivalent of General Motors Corp. (NYSE: GM - News) The large denominations -- including the United Methodist Church and the Episcopal Church -- have been shrinking for decades and have lost more than 1 million members in the past 10 years alone. Today, mainline Protestants account for just 16% of the U.S. population, says University of Akron political scientist John C. Green.
In contrast, evangelicalism's theological flexibility gives it the freedom to adapt to contemporary culture. With no overarching authority like the Vatican, leaders don't need to wrestle with a bureaucratic hierarchy that dictates acceptable behavior. "If you have a vision for ministry, you just do it, which makes it far easier to respond to market demand," says University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill sociology professor Christian Smith.
With such low barriers to entry, the number of evangelical megachurches -- defined as those that attract at least 2,000 weekly worshippers -- has shot up to 880 from 50 in 1980, figures John N. Vaughan, founder of research outfit Church Growth Today in Bolivar, Mo. He calculates that a new megachurch emerges in the U.S. an average of every two days. Overall, white evangelicals make up more than a quarter of Americans today, experts estimate. The figures are fuzzy because there's no common definition of evangelical, which typically refers to Christians who believe the Bible is the literal work of God. They may include many Southern Baptists, nondenominational churches, and some Lutherans and Methodists. There are also nearly 25 million black Protestants who consider themselves evangelicals but largely don't share the conservative politics of most white ones. Says pollster George Gallup, who has studied religious trends for decades: "The evangelicals are the most vibrant branch of Christianity."
The triumph of evangelical Christianity is profoundly reshaping many aspects of American politics and society. Historically, much of the U.S. political and business elite has been mainline Protestant. Today, President George W. Bush and more than a dozen members of Congress, including House Speaker Dennis Hastert, are evangelicals. More important, the Republican Right has been fueled by the swelling ranks of evangelicals, whose leaders tend to be conservative politically despite their progressive marketing methods. In the 1960s and '70s, prominent evangelicals like Billy Graham kept a careful separation of pulpit and politics -- even though he served as a spiritual adviser to President Richard M. Nixon. That began to change in the early 1980s, when Jerry Falwell formed the Moral Majority to express evangelicals' political views. Many of today's evangelicals hope to expand their clout even further. They're also gaining by taking their views into Corporate America. Exhibit A: the recent clash at software giant Microsoft.
As they thrive, though, there are growing tensions, with some mainline Protestants offended by their conservative politics and brazen marketing. "Jesus was not a capitalist; check out what [He] says about how hard it is to get into heaven if you're a rich man," says the Reverend Robert W. Edgar, general secretary of the liberal National Council of Churches.
Especially controversial are leaders like Osteen and the flamboyant Creflo A. Dollar, pastor of World Changers Church International in College Park, Ga., who preach "the prosperity gospel." They endorse material wealth and tell followers that God wants them to be prosperous. In his book, Osteen talks about how his wife, Victoria, a striking blonde who dresses fashionably, wanted to buy a fancy house some years ago, before the money rolled in. He thought it wasn't possible. "But Victoria had more faith," he wrote. "She convinced me we could live in an elegant home...and several years later, it did come to pass." Dollar, too, defends materialistic success. Dubbed "Pass-the-Dollar" by critics, he owns two Rolls Royces (NasdaqNM: RYCEY.PK - News) and travels in a Gulfstream 3 jet. "I practice what I preach, and the Bible says...that God takes pleasure in the prosperity of his servants," says Dollar, 43, nattily attired in French cuffs and a pinstriped suit.
Hucksters?
Some evangelical leaders acknowledge that flagrant materialism can raise the specter of religious hucksterism à la Sinclair Lewis' fictional Elmer Gantry or Jim and Tammy Faye Bakker. "Our goal is not to turn the church into a business," insists Warren, the founder of Saddleback megachurch in Lake Forest, Calif. After The Purpose-Driven Life made him millions, he repaid Saddleback all the salary he had taken over the years and still lives modestly. Cautions Kurt Frederickson, a director of the Fuller Theological Seminary in Pasadena, Calif.: "We have to be careful when a pastor moves into the CEO mode and becomes too market-oriented, or there might be a reaction against megachurches just as there is against Wal-Mart."
Many evangelicals say they're just trying to satisfy demands not met by traditional churches. Craig Groeschel, who launched Life Church in Edmond, Okla., in 1996, started out doing market research with non-churchgoers in the area -- and got an earful. "They said churches were full of hypocrites and were boring," he recalls. So he designed Life Church to counter those preconceptions, with lively, multimedia-filled services in a setting that's something between a rock concert and a coffee shop.
Once established, some ambitious churches are making a big business out of spreading their expertise. Willow Creek Community Church in South Barrington, Ill., formed a consulting arm called Willow Creek Assn. It earned $17 million last year, partly by selling marketing and management advice to 10,500 member churches from 90 denominations. Jim Mellado, the hard-charging Harvard MBA who runs it, last year brought an astonishing 110,000 church and lay leaders to conferences on topics such as effective leadership. "Our entrepreneurial impulse comes from the Biblical mandate to get the message out," says Willow Creek founder Bill Hybels, who hired Stanford MBA Greg Hawkins, a former McKinsey & Co. consultant, to handle the church's day-to-day management. Willow Creek's methods have even been lauded in a Harvard Business School case study.
Hybel's consumer-driven approach is evident at Willow Creek, where he shunned stained glass, Bibles, or even a cross for the 7,200-seat, $72 million sanctuary he recently built. The reason? Market research suggested that such traditional symbols would scare away non-churchgoers. He also gives practical advice. On a recent Wednesday evening, one of his four "teaching" pastors gave a service that started with 20 minutes of music, followed by a lengthy sermon about the Christian approach to personal finances. He told the 5,000 listeners about resisting advertising aimed at getting people to buy things they don't need and suggested they follow up at home by e-mailing questions. Like Osteen, Hybel packages self-help programs with a positive message intended to make people feel good about themselves. "When I walk out of a service, I feel completely relieved of any stress I walked in with," says Phil Earnest, 38, a sales manager who in 2003 switched to Willow Creek from the Methodist Church he found too stodgy.
So adept at the sell are some evangelicals that it can be difficult to distinguish between their religious aims and the secular style they mimic. Last December, Prestonwood Baptist Church in Plano, Tex., staged a spectacular Christmas festival, including a 500-person choir, that attracted 70,000 people even though the cheapest ticket was $20. Throughout the year, some 16,000 people take part in its sports program, which uses eight playing fields and six gyms on its $100 million, 140-acre campus. The teams, coached by church members, bring in converts, many of them children, says Executive Pastor Mike Buster.
Gushers of Cash
Kids are often a prime target audience for megachurches. The main campus of Groeschel's Life Church in Edmond, Okla., includes a "Toon Town" of 3D buildings, a 16-foot high slide, and an animatronic police chief who recites rules. All the razzmatazz has helped Life Church quadruple its Sunday school attendance to more than 2,500 a week. "The kids are bringing their parents to church," says children's pastor Scott Werner.
Such marketing and services help to create brand loyalty any CEO would envy. Willow Creek ranks in the top 5% of 250 major brands, right up with Nike (NYSE: NKE - News) and John Deere (NYSE: DE - News), says Eric Arnson. He helped develop a consumer-brand practice that McKinsey then bought and recently did a pro bono study for Willow Creek using that methodology.
Other megachurches are franchising their good name. Life Church now has five campuses in Oklahoma and will expand into Phoenix this fall. Pastor Groeschel jumped the 1,000 miles to Arizona after market research pinpointed Phoenix as an area with a large population but few effective churches. Atlanta's Dollar, who is African American, has pushed into five countries, including Nigeria and South Africa.
All this growth, plus the tithing many evangelicals encourage, is generating gushers of cash. A traditional U.S. church typically has fewer than 200 members and an annual budget of around $100,000. The average megachurch pulls in $4.8 million, according to a 1999 study by the Hartford Seminary, one of the few surveys on the topic. The money is also fueling a megachurch building boom. First Baptist Church of Woodstock, near Atlanta, for example, has just finished a $62 million, 7,000-seat sanctuary.
Megachurch business ventures sometimes grow beyond the bounds of the church itself. In the mid-1990s, Kirbyjon Caldwell, a Wharton MBA who sold bonds for First Boston before he enrolled in seminary, formed an economic development corporation that revived a depressed neighborhood near Houston's 14,000-member Windsor Village United Methodist Church, which he heads. A former Kmart now houses a mix of church and private businesses employing 270 people, including a Christian school and a bank. New plans call for a massive center with senior housing, retailing, and a public school.
For all their seemingly unstoppable success, evangelicals must contend with powerful forces in U.S. society. The ranks of Americans who express no religious preference have quadrupled since 1991, to 14%, according to a recent poll. Despite the megachurch surge, overall church attendance has remained fairly flat. And if anything, popular culture has become more vulgar in recent years. Still, experts like pollster Gallup see clear signs of a rising fascination with spirituality in the U.S. The September 11 attacks are one reason. So is the aging of the culturally influential Baby Boom, since spirituality tends to increase with age, he says. If so, no one is better poised than evangelicals to capitalize on the trend.
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Matthew 16:26 For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?
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