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Topic: Donor Beware - WOF Ministries Get Poor Grades
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hardcore
Advanced Member
Member # 4492
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posted
HFHS,
The information in your above post further proves the good service that Wall Watchers provides. They are a "good steward" tool for donating Christians. I really don't see a down side at the moment.
Posts: 627 | Registered: Mar 2005
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helpforhomeschoolers
Advanced Member
Member # 15
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posted
AndyMan: It seems that the answer to your question about TBN's C vs the other's F, has to with this being what MinistryWatch calls a transparency rating. Apparently at the time of this article, TBN must have been being more responsible and cooperative about disclosing their financial information.
This link shows how a tranparency grade is assessed: http://www.ministrywatch.com/mw2.1/pdf/tg3.pdf
They have also written an article that shows 30 ministries that have been given transparency ratings of A or excellent and this is also interesting information - these ministries were found to have exemplary practices which would make them a better investment for donors who are concerned about practicing good Biblical stewardship.
Here is a link to that information:
http://www.ministrywatch.com/mw2.1/pdf/SL_Top30.pdf
The link tells more about each of the 30, but these are th top 30 listed in alphabetical order:Ministry watch says all 30 have these things in common:
"While identifying the best ministries is challenging given the selfless work that so many do for the cause of Christ, MinistryWatch.com believes that the following alphabetical list of 30 excellent ministries will be helpful to many. Each of the ministries mentioned has the following important features in common:
• MinistryWatch.com researchers knows of no significant issues that would be of concern to donors.
• Have shown a willingness to treat donors fairly via a Transparency Grade of “A”.
• Are unashamed of being identified as an evangelical Christian ministry.
Ankerberg Theological Research Institute
Answers in Genesis
Bible Study Fellowship
Care Net
Child Evangelism Fellowship
Children’s Hunger Fund
Christian Medical and Dental Associations
Compassion International
Crown Financial Ministries
EvanTell
Family Guidance
Family Research Council
Gideons International
Good News Jail and Prison Ministry
International Aid
JAARS
The Jesus Film Project
Jews for Jesus
Joni and Friends
Josh McDowell Ministries
New Directions International
New Tribes Mission
Northwest Medical Teams International
Operation Blessing
Prison Fellowship Ministries
Probe Ministries International
Ravi Zacharias International Ministries
Voice of the Martyrs
World Help
Young Life
I also thought that this was a good sort of tip sheet on things to consider when considering donating to a Christian charitable organization :
Donor Discussion Items
No one is possessed of unlimited resources, and thus we cannot give to every ministry that we value.
We are forced to choose to give to some ministries, and not to give to others.
We need to make an assessment of our options and make discerning decisions. More time involved on the process and/or reliance on independent sources like MinistryWatch.com will help provide confident,wise giving decisions.
Start by getting information before committing your financial resources. Consider the following in your assessment:
Transparency:
How transparent and open to questions is the ministry?
Will they seek to hide their failings while trumpeting their successes?
Do they provide adequate financial reports for donors to be good stewards of their giving?
Do not give to a ministry that claims it has
no legal obligation to share financial or other information—it has a moral obligation to do so.
In such cases donors do not have a legal obligation to give and do have a moral obligation to give to those ministries that will allow them to be good stewards of their
giving.
Truth Claims:
Is the organization telling the truth? If the ministry states that your gifts are tax deductible, is it true? Is the organization in fact
what it says it is and is it doing what it claims?
Function/ Sector:
What kind of ministry do you believe the Lord is guiding you to give to?
What kind of ministry do you want to give to?
Some options include: Relief and Development, Foreign Missions, Fellowship Evangelism, Evangelism Support, Evangelism, Educational
Media, Community Development, Christian Growth, Advocacy.
Worldview / Beliefs:
Ministries represent values, but do they represent your values?
How is the organization “Christian?”
Is it Christian in name only?
Do they just market to Christians?
Do they evangelize?
What is their message?
Do they teach? What do they teach?
How do their theological underpinnings determine their actions?
Have they strayed from theological beginnings?
Are their motivations based on a theological premise? Do they have a statement of faith or a creed? What do they say or not say about God?
Is it important that the organization is pro-life? Is it important how they define family?
Are denominational connections important?
Financial Efficiency:
How efficient is the ministry in using its resources? MinistryWatch.com has developed a 5 Star Financial Efficiency Ratings to
measure a ministry’s financial efficiency. This is an objective measure because they are derived from financial ratios that are based on financial information contained within a ministry’s audited financial statement or its IRS Form 990.
The overall rating is a summarization of the financial efficiency rating system’s three efficiency area assessments. The three fficiency areas are Fund Acquisition, Resource Allocation and Asset Utilization.
Program Effectiveness:
What information is available in what the organization has done? What are the fruits of their labor? Is the organization just all talk
or are they accomplishing great benefits to society?
Red Flags:
Are there any odd aspects of the ministry? Is the organization embroiled in lawsuits and, if so, why?
Does the organization employ highly emotional fundraising appeals?
Emotional appeals that question the depth of your faith should generally be ignored.
Is the organization’s structure reasonably simple? Do the claims made by the ministry seem realistic? Does the ministry seem to
manipulate scripture or rely on extra biblical revelations?
(1) Think before your give.
(2) Get information.
(3) Align to those ministries that are doing what is important to you.
(4) Give with confidence and rest with the joy of increased giving. ��
Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002
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TEXASGRANDMA
Advanced Member
Member # 847
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posted
2 Samuel 1:16 For David had said to him, "Your blood be on your own head. Your own mouth testified against you when you said, 'I killed the LORD's anointed.' "
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But are the Preachers who are turning the Gospel into sugar-coated cereal to sell to the multitueds anointed? Don't tell me that we can not judge. The Bible says a man is judge by what comes out of his mouth.
HisGrace, You complain to be offended by hersay seekers as you all like to call us, but you come in day after day and speak your mind. You have no right to be offended when you hear something you don't like. You know what the subject is before you came in the door.
If you leave it would be not because you were ran off, it will be because you cannot handle the truth.
betty
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
http://www.indieheaven.com/artists/mm (son-in-law)http://www.myspace.com/mireles
Posts: 4985 | From: Washington State | Registered: Jan 2003
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HisGrace
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quote:
Originally posted by helpforhomeschoolers:
I would appreicate it if you would keep my name out of your little game and ]B]not say things like this to me or about me on this board
I have never said one thing against you personally Linda. There is a lot of strong speculation and accusations in your post. I don't know where you have seen me accuse anyone personally of being ugly. Lets face it, hardcore and I were starting to argue, and I did include myself
There was a time I would be in tears just about now, but the Lord is doing a work in me and I am getting stronger.
You say I am playing stupid little games and making stupid points. I have discussed my concerns about this Board with a couple of trusted Christians and they know how serious I am when I post.
Once again, my input seems to be stepping on too many toes, even though I personally believe I am using discernment. When it gets to this point I feel it's best that I leave BBS until the dust settles.
If it is the Lord's will, I will be back; otherwise I will move on.
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hardcore
Advanced Member
Member # 4492
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posted
quote:
HisGrace: What's my point? You can't deny that they are asking for money. Remember -Benny Hinn isn't supposed to be asking for money
We are starting to argue, so I have to leave this thread now.
One for H4HS and one for hardcore ![[hug]](graemlins/hug.gif)
HisGrace,
I didn't deny at any time that Wall Watchers asked for donations. If you're at all interested in the truth, here it is.
"How Should Donors Use Ministry Research?
Donors should use ministry research in the same way that investors use investment research - to make informed decisions. External research provides independent insight into the workings of an organization. As stewards of the resources that God has entrusted to them (including both financial resources and mental capacity), donors have a responsibility to know how and why their money is being utilized in the way that it is. Giving does not stop at the writing of a check; this event marks only the beginning of an ongoing two-way relationship between the ministry and the donor. Both have entered into a relationship, and both must foster that relationship. Information is the tie that binds, out of which a level of trust is built between donor and ministry."
Twice, you claimed that the above paragraph was about Wall Watchers asking for donations. It is not. That's why I asked if you had actually read the entire article. It was apparent that you hadn't or at the very least were misunderstanding it. You commented negatively anyway, pretending that it said something that it clearly did not. The entire article is now posted in this thread, and yet you still refuse to admit you were wrong. Why not just acknowledge that you made a mistake?
You say you had to leave this thread because we we're starting to argue. That's baloney HisGrace, and you know it. Nobody was arguing. You got busted and decided to run instead of admitting your mistake. I gotta tell ya, for someone who likes to talk about people's pride, lack of humility, and love in the "bible study" section so often, I'm not so impressed with your demonstration at the moment.
Posts: 627 | Registered: Mar 2005
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JAVA
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Member # 4576
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posted
1 Cor 3;9 For we are God's fellow workers; you are God's field, God's building.
Osteen is building the tower of Babel. Grandmajo, it saddens me deeply that you are, with tens of thousands of others, beguiled by this scripture twisting placating charlatan.
He candy coats everything so it will be more paletteable to the masses. Our Lord left us with specific instruction to watch for those who would come in His name but know Him not.
![[dance]](graemlins/dance1.gif)
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JAVA, "And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are called according to his purpose."
Posts: 147 | From: Columbia South Carolina | Registered: Apr 2005
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hardcore
Advanced Member
Member # 4492
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by SoftTouch:
Good Point Sis... seems to me I'm not seeing this ministry on my Television asking me to plant a "Faith Seed" and promising me that God will give me a 100X return... OR if I Don't plant that "Faith Seed" that they can't guarentee that something HORRIBLE won't happen to me (Unlike Another So-Called Minister does). That seems like Emotional Blackmail to me ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
Exactly. There is no comparison between this ministry and Benny Hinn. One provides a service to Christians, one rips them off. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see this, and quite frankly, even a small dose of discernment ought to be enough.
Futhermore, WallWatchers wouldn't be necessary if the Benny Hinns of the world weren't so busy fleecing the flock.
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SoftTouch
Advanced Member
Member # 2316
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by hardcore:
quote:
Originally posted by HisGrace:
quote:
Originally posted by helpforhomeschoolers:
The only "begging for money" on the wallwatcher's site that I can find is a form where you can make a donation, under a tab titled donations; there is not even a request for donations on the page.
At the very top of Wall Watchers' face sheet -
"Being one of the thousands who have been educated and empowered by our ministry efforts, we encourage you to help support the continuing work of this ministry. With your tax deductibe donations, you help others become more effective donors and thereby help in fulfilling the Great Commission (Toll-free number and address given)
They go on -"MinistryWatch is a program of Wall Watchers, a Christian ministry and a registered 501(c)(3) nonprofit organization. As such, all donations made to it are fully deductible to the extent allowed by law. The ministry's operating budget comes from donations, therefore we welcome and encourage any form of support, financial or otherwise. If you would like to learn more about Wall Watchers and our vision for the ministry marketplace, visit www.wallwatchers.org, our organizational website. If you appreciate what Wall Watchers is striving to do and would like to contribute to seeing this vision become a reality, you can click on the Helping.org icon below to give an online donation, or use the contact details below to get in touch with us and learn about the ways that you can become a part of the Wall Watchers team." [and they give their address ]
What's your point in posting this? Do you think that they're doing something wrong by providing a way to contribute if you'd like? They're hardly pressuring. Seems pretty standard and straight up to me.
Regarding the original paragraph that you'd been referring to, you did indeed misinterpret it; twice. They were not asking for donations to their ministry anywhere in that article.
Did you read the entire article? Seems to me they're providing a pretty solid and valuable service to Christians who donate to ministries.
Good Point Sis... seems to me I'm not seeing this ministry on my Television asking me to plant a "Faith Seed" and promising me that God will give me a 100X return... OR if I Don't plant that "Faith Seed" that they can't guarentee that something HORRIBLE won't happen to me (Unlike Another So-Called Minister does). That seems like Emotional Blackmail to me
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Psalm 119:104Through thy precepts I get understanding: therefore I hate every false way. 105Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.
Posts: 3465 | Registered: Nov 2003
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helpforhomeschoolers
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Member # 15
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posted
hisgrace, if you want to play these games that is fine with me; you seem very much to enjoy going into a thread where you disagree and causing a rukus that has nothing at all to do with the thread and then when you have caused a rukus,made people angry, or taken the thread completly off topic, you duck out and accuse everyone but yourself of arguing or being ugly or what ever you happen to want to accuse some one of at the moment and paint yourself as a peace loving sweet individual wanting only to lift up Jesus. Well in my opinion there is nothing loving or sweet or uplifting about it. I realize that you could care less about my opinion and that is fine too, but I am not playing with you in this game, and I am sure that Hardcore is neither. I would appreicate it if you would keep my name out of your little game and not say things like this to me or about me on this board.
quote:
One for H4HS and one for hardcore
You can check with her, but I would venture that hardcore probably feels the same way.
Further:
Romans 16:17 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.
I want you to know that I have marked you and your entourage who like to participate in this little game as such as is spoken of in Romans 16:17 and I intend to avoid you all.
It would probably do this board and Christ a great service if you all would avoid me as well, as I have no intentions of going anywhere unless David asks me to go and I do not intend to stop preaching what I preach either, nor do I intend to stop preaching what I preach against, until God tells me to do so. I do not I intend to participate in your little game. So take your stupid little points and place them over your own head. I dont need them or want them and have done nothing to get them accept post things that you do not agree with. Leave me out of your games!
Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002
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helpforhomeschoolers
Advanced Member
Member # 15
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posted
Oh My, I did see this. This is informative information that any non profit organization would publically post. In fact, some of it is required by law. I do not see any requests or interrogatives here at all. Oh, well.
I apologize, my mistake. I must not understand the meaning of the word "begging".
Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002
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HisGrace
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by hardcore:
What's your point in posting this?
They were not asking for donations to their ministry anywhere in that article.
What's my point? You can't deny that they are asking for money. Remember -Benny Hinn isn't supposed to be asking for money.
We are starting to argue, so I have to leave this thread now.
One for H4HS and one for hardcore
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hardcore
Advanced Member
Member # 4492
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by HisGrace:
quote:
Originally posted by helpforhomeschoolers:
The only "begging for money" on the wallwatcher's site that I can find is a form where you can make a donation, under a tab titled donations; there is not even a request for donations on the page.
At the very top of Wall Watchers' face sheet -
"Being one of the thousands who have been educated and empowered by our ministry efforts, we encourage you to help support the continuing work of this ministry. With your tax deductibe donations, you help others become more effective donors and thereby help in fulfilling the Great Commission (Toll-free number and address given)
They go on -"MinistryWatch is a program of Wall Watchers, a Christian ministry and a registered 501(c)(3) nonprofit organization. As such, all donations made to it are fully deductible to the extent allowed by law. The ministry's operating budget comes from donations, therefore we welcome and encourage any form of support, financial or otherwise. If you would like to learn more about Wall Watchers and our vision for the ministry marketplace, visit www.wallwatchers.org, our organizational website. If you appreciate what Wall Watchers is striving to do and would like to contribute to seeing this vision become a reality, you can click on the Helping.org icon below to give an online donation, or use the contact details below to get in touch with us and learn about the ways that you can become a part of the Wall Watchers team." [and they give their address ]
What's your point in posting this? Do you think that they're doing something wrong by providing a way to contribute if you'd like? They're hardly pressuring. Seems pretty standard and straight up to me.
Regarding the original paragraph that you'd been referring to, you did indeed misinterpret it; twice. They were not asking for donations to their ministry anywhere in that article.
Did you read the entire article? Seems to me they're providing a pretty solid and valuable service to Christians who donate to ministries.
Posts: 627 | Registered: Mar 2005
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HisGrace
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by helpforhomeschoolers:
The only "begging for money" on the wallwatcher's site that I can find is a form where you can make a donation, under a tab titled donations; there is not even a request for donations on the page.
At the very top of Wall Watchers' face sheet -
"Being one of the thousands who have been educated and empowered by our ministry efforts, we encourage you to help support the continuing work of this ministry. With your tax deductibe donations, you help others become more effective donors and thereby help in fulfilling the Great Commission (Toll-free number and address given)
They go on -"MinistryWatch is a program of Wall Watchers, a Christian ministry and a registered 501(c)(3) nonprofit organization. As such, all donations made to it are fully deductible to the extent allowed by law. The ministry's operating budget comes from donations, therefore we welcome and encourage any form of support, financial or otherwise. If you would like to learn more about Wall Watchers and our vision for the ministry marketplace, visit www.wallwatchers.org, our organizational website. If you appreciate what Wall Watchers is striving to do and would like to contribute to seeing this vision become a reality, you can click on the Helping.org icon below to give an online donation, or use the contact details below to get in touch with us and learn about the ways that you can become a part of the Wall Watchers team." [and they give their address ]
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helpforhomeschoolers
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Member # 15
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posted
Here you go Hardcore:
Does Wall Watchers Endorse Any Ministries? [ top ]
Wall Watchers generally does not promote, endorse, recommend or represent any ministry, charity or nonprofit. We never provide fundraising services. Wall Watchers issues a very small percentage of Donor Alerts or MinistryWatch Recommends relative to the overall number of ministries in its www.MinistryWatch.com database. Nevertheless, we sometimes send out Donor Alerts to our readers to alert them to any ministry that may be engaged in activity that causes Wall Watchers to question if donor money is being used as intended. At other times, Wall Watchers research staffers discover particularly positive information about the efficiency and effectiveness of ministries in the website database. In many cases, these ministries are not well known, but are deserving of a close look by potential donors. Initially, Wall Watchers compiled data and conducted research for the sole purpose of providing donors with independent ratings and analysis. That information would serve as the basis for any giving decision that a donor might choose to make. However, the actions of some ministry leaders demanded a response from Wall Watchers beyond the standard sharing of basic information; withholding the information from donors would have been tantamount to condoning sin. Conversely, some other ministries are so eagerly transparent and willing to share information, and are highly effective and efficient in accomplishing their mission, that Wall Watchers leadership determined that the ministry’s mission should move beyond empowering donors with information to actually educating donors based on the expert analysis and detailed information gathered. While such advocacy will be rare and judicious, it is necessary for many reasons. First, no matter how diligent a potential donor might be, the vast number of ministries in the Wall Watchers data base (now numbering more than 500 and growing), would overwhelm most folks “Plans fail for lack of counsel, but with many advisers they succeed” (Proverbs 15:22). Additionally, many worthwhile ministries go under funded because of limited advertising budgets. We facilitate the fundraising efforts of ministries by providing a platform upon which the donor can find information on the ministries of their choice and upon which they can transfer money to the ministry of their choice. If a potential conflict of interest arises, Wall Watchers is committed to full disclosure. Because we are an organization that provides an educational web site in addition to a ministry database, Wall Watchers may also review organizations or representatives of organizations that contribute to thegoodsteward.com. A Conflict of Interest Policy has been drawn up for this potential conflict of interest. You can view this Conflict of Interest Policy at www.thegoodsteward.com.
Does Wall Watchers Judge Whether One Ministry Is Better Than Another? [ top ]
No. Wall Watchers does not judge whether one ministry is better than another; instead, we provide information to help people understand a ministry better. Ministries have different missions, roles, and goals, making each one unique. We do, however, try to evaluate the efficiency with which a ministry manages the money that has been entrusted to it. We believe that the decision about which ministries to support is entirely up to the donors themselves and our primary role is simply to provide information that they may find useful in making that decision.
How Should Donors Use Ministry Research? [ top ]
Donors should use ministry research in the same way that investors use investment research - to make informed decisions. External research provides independent insight into the workings of an organization. As stewards of the resources that God has entrusted to them (including both financial resources and mental capacity), donors have a responsibility to know how and why their money is being utilized in the way that it is. Giving does not stop at the writing of a check; this event marks only the beginning of an ongoing two-way relationship between the ministry and the donor. Both have entered into a relationship, and both must foster that relationship. Information is the tie that binds, out of which a level of trust is built between donor and ministry.
Can Wall Watchers Uncover Criminal Misconduct Occurring Within Ministries? [ top ]
Uncovering fraud, embezzlement, malfeasance or any other type of criminal activity within an organization is not the mission of Wall Watchers. Consequently, donors should not rely upon Wall Watchers research to protect them from dishonest organizations. From the outside looking in, it is virtually impossible to detect criminal activity within an organization. However, Wall Watchers is in the business of disseminating information. Withholding it runs counter to its mission of educating and empowering donors. Wall Watchers believes:
Donors are to be good stewards of the resources with which God has provided them “Now it is required that those who have been given a trust must prove faithful” (1 Corinthians 4:2).
To be good stewards, donors must have discernment “Let the wise listen and add to their learning, and let the discerning get guidance” (Proverbs 1:5).
With discernment, a donor will honor God’s desire for His people to be generous and cheerful givers “Each man should give what he has decided in his heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver” (2 Corinthians 9:7).
Donors, to be generous and cheerful givers, must have confidence that ministries’ disclosures regarding financial practices, spending habits, board governance and compensation, and other key practices are complete, thorough, timely and transparent. Matthew 18: 15-17 offers the model for Christ-followers to utilize in resolving disputes. First confront individually; second, lacking repentance, bring another brother or sister as a witness; third, lacking repentance, tell the whole church; finally, lacking repentance, expel the sinner. Generally speaking, Wall Watchers falls into step 3 of the process. Usually, by the time Wall Watchers discovers or hears of questions regarding financial practices or other management issues, employees or others have attempted to get the ministry to change its ways. By the time Wall Watchers is alerted and involved, it is the “whole church” the donors that need to know of the problems. If Wall Watchers is the first to discover suspected wrongdoing, Wall Watchers will begin with the first step of this biblical model, though withholding possible evidence of illegal or immoral activities is never an option. Biblical admonitions require action. Wall Watchers believes that there are several Bible passages that not only support but demand advocacy on the support of donors. Consider:
“If you see your brother’s ox or sheep straying, do not ignore it but be sure to take it back to him” (Deuteronomy 22:1).
“Do not spread false reports. Do not help a wicked man by being a malicious witness” (Exodus 23:1).
“What is this I hear about you? Give an account of your management…” (Luke 16:2).
How Does Wall Watchers Choose Ministries To Research? [ top ]
The ultimate goal of Wall Watchers ministry research is to provide information to the public that will facilitate increased giving to organizations that are faithfully doing the Lord's work. In order to do this, we must first identify the organizations that are trying to do the Lord's work, and then provide the public with information about them. Admittedly, there is no clear-cut method for determining whether an organization is genuinely trying to do the Lord's work; and even if there was a clear-cut method to determine this, it would not be practical to research every organization that is doing so. With these limitations in mind, we have attempted to focus our research efforts on those organizations that fit a certain profile. We think the organizations fitting this profile are the ones about which a great many donors who want to support the Lord's work will be interested. It should be noted that every organization fitting this profile will not necessarily be reviewed, nor will every organization reviewed by Wall Watchers fit every element of this profile. The reason for providing this profile is to give the users of MinistryWatch.com an idea of the types of ministries that are profiled in our database. The organizations that are most likely to be the initial candidates for Wall Watchers research are those that:
1) Are recognized as a nonprofit entity by the IRS
2) Profess to be a Christian organization
3) Receive a significant amount of financial support through donations
4) Receive support from a large, geographically diverse donor base
As time and organizational resources permit, we will expand the MinistryWatch.com database to include organizations that are smaller and more regionally focused. An increasingly larger database will ultimately provide donors with more information and will provide a greater number of ministries with exposure to the public.
Where Does Wall Watchers See Itself In Relation To The ECFA? [ top ]
Wall Watchers sees itself as a complement to the ECFA. Research and analysis (what Wall Watchers is attempting to do) can only exist if a minimum level of information is available in the public domain. The focus of a research organization is not to generate new information, but to process the existing body of public information and to add clarity and insight to it. In this way, the minimum disclosure and accountability standards of the ECFA allow Wall Watchers to carry out its mission (providing that member ministries are willing to cooperate and give us access to the information we need).
Why is Wall Watchers not a member of the ECFA? [ top ]
Wall Watchers applied to the ECFA to become a member, however the application was rejected for the following reasons:
1. The denial of Wall Watchers application for ECFA membership was based on a difference in philosophy concerning the rating of ministries, not because Wall Watchers could not meet ECFA's Standards.
2. The ECFA Board concluded that Wall Watchers' pursuit of its objectives as a member of the ECFA could create divisiveness within the membership of the ECFA.
Wall Watchers' understands the reasons for the ECFA's decision, but does not necessarily agree with the conclusions drawn. Wall Watchers' hopes that in time the ministry's efforts will help to dispel those concerns allowing for reconsideration of its application at a later date.
What Vision Does Wall Watchers Have For The Nonprofit Sector? [ top ]
Wall Watchers is a strong advocate for the continued improving development of a Christian Ministry Marketplace. Those who are involved in an exchange make transactions based on some level of knowledge about the benefits of participating in the “trade.” The greater the knowledge each participant in a transaction has regarding the potential benefit of making an exchange, the more likely a “trade” will take place “Let the wise listen and add to their learning, and let the discerning get guidance” (Proverbs 1:5). Additionally, the perceived value of having engaged in the trade will be higher for both parties involved. A free flow of information that is easily accessible, accurate, low cost, comprehensive and of high quality is a key ingredient to any well functioning marketplace.
Some may argue that there is not a marketplace in the nonprofit world due to the absence of a profit motive. Despite this absence, there remains an exchange of donor dollars for the satisfaction of knowing that those in need have been blessed. With this gift comes a stewardship responsibility to both the giver and receiver to see that it has been administered appropriately and not wasted “Now it is required that those who have been given a trust must prove faithful” (1 Corinthians 4:2). Givers will not donate if they believe their gift will be wasted or misappropriated. Even though there is not a “bottom line” net profit measurement of success or failure in the nonprofit world, there are a variety of methods of gaining understanding about how efficiently and effectively donations are utilized. Donors will naturally utilize such measures to gain assurance that their giving was administered wisely. Accordingly, the marketplace transaction for nonprofits is simply the exchange of donor dollars for knowledge that the donation will likely achieve its desired goal of helping those in need.
Some may be troubled by the notion that a marketplace indicates a competitive environment exists for Christian ministries. Several observers have expressed concern in the past that competition is inappropriate in a Christian ministry context. Wall Watchers believes that regardless of one’s beliefs about such competitive forces, competition undeniably exists in the realm of Christian ministries. Ministries are clearly vying for donor dollars and regularly use standard business practices to attract as much money as possible to their ministries. Ministries with competitive advantages in terms of scale or distribution regularly exploit these for their own benefit while smaller, arguably more worthy ministries, are unable to match the efforts of the larger ministries. Wall Watchers seeks to help donors obtain accurate, unbiased information about all Christian ministries to help level the competitive playing field in the Christian Ministry Marketplace. If competition exists, it should at least be fair “Honest scales and balances are from the Lord” (Proverbs 16:11a).
It is also quite natural to at first be repulsed by the idea of a marketplace in the realm of giving. Giving is a very personal, and hopefully prayerful, activity. Talk of marketplaces and competition seem to be out of place in this area where the spiritual dimension should take precedence. Wall Watchers acknowledges that any marketplace or information service that seeks to aid the Christian donor is ultimately subservient to the Holy Spirit’s leading “Each man should give what he has decided in his heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver” (2 Corinthians 9:7). It is entirely possible that despite a large quantity of evidence that a donation should not be made to a particular ministry, a donor might feel lead by the Lord to give anyway. At the same time, however, we are confident that the Lord can and does use the tools that are available to donors in the Christian Ministry Marketplace to help align their gifts with His eternal purposes. By remaining faithful to the teaching of the Bible and sensitive to the Holy Spirit’s promptings, donors can know if, how and when to best utilize the growing information available to donors about the ministries that they support.
Wall Watchers believes that the tools and infrastructure which exist to support the for-profit marketplace (investors and corporations) are currently being created to support a nonprofit marketplace (donors and nonprofits). It is too early to determine which platforms or groups will survive, but the infrastructure will be built. In this environment, Wall Watchers views the ECFA (and other standard setting bodies) as the nonprofit counterpart to the National Association of Securities Dealers (NASD), which sets standards for its members in the for-profit community. Once minimum standards are established and broadly accepted, nonprofits will be motivated to produce a prospectus-type document to inform their potential donors about their organizations. When active solicitation is taking place, we believe there is a need for a service such as Wall Watchers to assist the donor in processing large amounts of information. In this capacity, Wall Watchers will become the nonprofit counterpart to Morningstar and Value Line in the stock and mutual fund markets. We aim to educate and empower the individual donor by providing them with sufficient information to make their own informed giving decision. We believe that information is the oil that will lubricate the giving process, and that the three functions described here will comprise the basic information infrastructure of the nonprofit industry in the future. In addition, we believe that the financial advisory community will begin wrapping charitable giving services into their existing investment advisory services, in order to provide their clients with a full set of services to meet all of their financial needs.
Why Would We Review A Ministry That Receives Very Little Public Support? [ top ]
Wall Watchers' mission centers around the belief that nonprofit institutions have an inherent responsibility to the public. These institutions are able to receive contributions free from income tax obligations. In addition, donors to these institutions are not taxed on the income that they give. This privileged status is afforded an organization when the public believes that it is promoting the public good rather than the enrichment of individuals. As beneficiaries of this privileged status, nonprofits have an inherent responsibility to provide information to the public about the use of the funds with which they have been entrusted. Although donors and potential donors are the individuals most likely to request this information, they are only one constituent among many (within the larger general public) to whom nonprofits are ultimately accountable. For this reason, we will not forego review of a ministry simply because it receives little public support. The degree of public support is just one factor considered in our decision about whether or not to review a ministry.
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To this hisgrace says:
quote:
The above quote is speaking about donations to WallWatchers themselves to do all of this 'research' (what just looks basically like mudslinging to me.)
I found the above quote under Wall Watchers' own site, listing features about themselves, yet they have a long list of articles about Donor Alerts to be wary of. It seems kind of hypoctrical that they are attempting to expose these churches who, we have to admit, do so much great missionary work and helping charites, when they are begging for funds for something which I find to be very futile and a waste of money.
Donors could find much more constructive and helpful ways to use their hard-earned cash.
Hardcore: Clearly this is a false statement, as this paragraph is an answer to a question: How should donors (donors are in this case useers of the service and programs that wallwatcher's provides) use "ministry research" (Ministry research is one of the products that Wall Watcher's provides)
The only "begging for money" on the wallwatcher's site that I can find is a form where you can make a donation, under a tab titled donations; there is not even a request for donations on the page.
This looks like the same game on a different page. Cause a big enough diversion from the subject at hand to take the focus off the thread that offends.
We have seen this in inumerable threads where the focus is placed on the poster and not the issue and now we see it here where the the focus is drawn to the reporting agency and not what they are reporting.
This is as you know a common tactic when the issue at hand is indefensible - The Clinton's with the help of the Liberal media did it during the Lewinsky scandal.... if we can debate what the meaning of "is" is - we do not have to call sin sin.
What I really do not understand is the time and attention given to do this and by those who claim that they have no intrest in these subjects and find them a waste of time and really dont want to even look at them. Actually, I do understand it far too well and it is not a pretty picture.
Oh, well as David says.... Plow on.... Plow on...
Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002
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hardcore
Advanced Member
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by HisGrace:
quote:
Originally posted by hardcore:
quote:
HisGrace:They are talking about donations to Wallwatchers for their "ministry research".
Based on the paragraph you posted (re-copied below), I don't think that's what they were talking about HisGrace. I think you misunderstood. HFHS - can you clarify? I very well may be missing something.
Re Wall Watcers
"How Should Donors Use Ministry Research?
Donors should use ministry research in the same way that investors use investment research - to make informed decisions. External research provides independent insight into the workings of an organization......."
The above quote is speaking about donations to WallWatchers themselves to do all of this 'research' (what just looks basically like mudslinging to me.)
I found the above quote under Wall Watchers' own site, listing features about themselves, yet they have a long list of articles about Donor Alerts to be wary of. It seems kind of hypoctrical that they are attempting to expose these churches who, we have to admit, do so much great missionary work and helping charites, when they are begging for funds for something which I find to be very futile and a waste of money.
Donors could find much more constructive and helpful ways to use their hard-earned cash.
I will fully admit that I haven't read the entirety of the piece that you are quoting from. I went to the site but couldn't find this particular one. Can you give me some direction?
From the part that you are posting, it seems like they are talking about how donors to any ministry can use their research (ministry) to make informed decisions. I don't see where they are talking about specifically donating to them.
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helpforhomeschoolers
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posted
I am not sure AndyMan but that may have changed as they have not issued a Donor Advisory against donating to TBN:
March 2005
MinistryWatch.com Take
The decision by TBN leadership to revert to stonewalling MinistryWatch.com’s attempts to obtain crucial answers to important
questions of governance and finances at the ministry just two months after TBN Vice President of Administration Paul Crouch Jr.
agreed to answer these questions has caused MinistryWatch.com to again recommend that donors withhold contributions to TBN.
Additionally, because of the seriousness of the allegations and governance issues that the Crouches refuse to address, as well as the
hundreds of millions of donor dollars involved ($643 million in donations received over the last five years and $341 million of cash
and near cash investments on hand), MinistryWatch.com also reiterates its call for the establishment of an independent commission
of respected Christian leaders to restore TBN to a place of unquestioned integrity in the eyes of donors.
The Issues
MinistryWatch.com believes educated and knowledgeable donors are the best stewards of their giving to the Lord’s work and extend
the impact of their giving the farthest.
During the course of the past year, the following has occurred:
• March, 2004: MinistryWatch.com issued a Donor Alert on TBN regarding excessive cash reserves and other questions regarding use of resources for designated purposes: http://www.ministrywatch.com/mw2.1/pdf/MWDA_031204.pdf
• September, 2004: The Los Angeles Times published a series of articles about TBN that question the ministry’s use of resources,
revealed a previously-undisclosed settlement with a former employee, and offered a critical view of the Word-of-
Faith gospel as preached by Paul Crouch Sr.
• September, 2004: MinistryWatch.com issued a Donor Alert on TBN regarding the above articles and the unanswered
questions that led to the first Donor Alert: http://www.ministrywatch.com/mw2.1/pdf/MWDA_092804_TBN.pdf
Details revealed in the above referenced documents include:
• TBN refuses to release consolidated audited financial statements.
• TBN spends shockingly little on its charitable programs. TBN’s 2003 program expenses are extremely low at 43 percent,
when compared to the MinistryWatch.com database average at about 78 percent. Additionally, TBN’s 2003 savings rate is
high at about 39 percent compared to the MinistryWatch.com database average of around zero.
• TBN presently has cash and short term investments of $341 million. This represents money that could be deployed into
ministry work but instead is sitting idle on the ministry’s balance sheet. Meanwhile, the ministry continues to implore donors
to give it even more money.
• TBN executives Paul and Jan Crouch espouse a skewed view of the Gospel, embracing the “health and wealth” or “prosperity” theology, often portraying an unorthodox accounting of the life and teachings of Jesus.
• Mr. Crouch and his family live a life of luxury, the full extent of which remains unknown. The Crouches refusal to be
transparent raises questions as to whether their exorbitant lifestyle is financed by the sacrificial giving of well-meaning donors.
• Matthew Crouch, son of Paul and Jan Crouch, controls a for-profit company that has received approximately $32 million from TBN corporations during the past five years to produce movies such as “The Omega Code.” Due to a lack of transparency, donors are unable to determine if this was a sensible use of their money or what amount of compensation Matthew Crouch and/or others closely aligned with the Crouch family may have taken from this and possibly other related party
transactions.
• TBN’s board of directors is made up of just three Crouch family members, preventing independent oversight needed to
protect donor interests and in contrast to the best practices utilized by many other excellent ministries.
Trinity Broadcasting Network (TBN)
MinistryWatch.com advises donors to withhold support to Trinity Broadcasting
Network; calls also for new leadership
Educating & Empowering Donors to Support Christian M i n i s t r ie s
MinistryWatch.com
• A former employee, Kelly Whitmore, said that ministry funds were used to indulge the personal tastes of the Crouch couple.
• At least one television station has dropped TBN from its lineup after viewers complained that their promised blessings
never occurred.
• In 1998, a former TBN employee, Enoch Lonnie Ford, was paid $425,000 for agreeing not to publicize Mr. Ford’s allegations
that he and TBN founder Paul Crouch had a homosexual tryst two years earlier.
• TBN vigorously worked to keep the information regarding the settlement with Mr. Ford private and questions remain regarding
the source of those funds.
Comments on the chronology of communications with TBN
MinistryWatch.com has remained faithful to the biblical model of confrontation, reconciliation and repentance as outlined by Jesus
in Matthew 18:15-17 in its communications with TBN. It has been only after many unsuccessful attempts to garner relevant and
reasonable information from TBN on the behalf of donors that MinistryWatch.com has issued Donor Alerts, including this one.
Such publication is the practical application of “tell(ing) it to the church” (Matthew 18:17) as believers are commanded to do when
a believer rejects biblical counsel.
MinnstryWatch.com is only reluctantly issuing this Donor Alert since the most recent correspondence with TBN executives began
with encouraging signs. On October 8, 2004, a MinistryWatch.com official engaged in a cordial conversation with pledges of cooperation
from Mr. Crouch Jr. Soon, however, the dialogue deteriorated, and within about two months, TBN, following an un- Biblical pattern it has used in the past with others (1 Corinthians 6:1-6), threatened to sue MinistryWatch.com. The letter threatening legal action – dated December 9, 2004 – was the last official correspondence from TBN.
Nevertheless, it remains MinistryWatch.com’s desire that TBN avoid an escalation of their adversarial approach and would instead
respond in a manner aligned with biblical admonitions. MinistryWatch.com remains willing to engage in productive dialogue with
TBN to find suitable answers to these questions. It is MinistryWatch.com’s belief that the Bible is clear as to how TBN, and every
other Christian ministry, should conduct their dealings with those who give generously and sacrificially to their ministries. The
Apostle Paul wrote, “We intend that no one should blame us about this generous gift that we are administering, for we intend to do
what is right not only in the Lord’s sight but also in the sight of others” (2 Corinthians 8:20-21, NRSV).
MinistryWatch.com Recommendation
The preponderance of information available at this time raises serious questions about the Crouches’ stewardship of TBN. Consequently,
it is imperative that a full accounting be made so as to restore the ministry to a place of unquestioned respect and integrity
in the eyes of donors. Moreover, these outstanding issues of integrity and theology also lead many unsaved people astray and bring
harm upon the Gospel message as well as upon others who are attempting to legitimately present Jesus Christ to a fallen world.
To help accomplish this objective, MinistryWatch.com recommends:
1. Until such time as confidence can be restored concerning the issues outlined above, MinistryWatch.com currently recommends
that donors find other worthy ministries to support. Donors considering supporting other ministries that are wellgoverned,
financially transparent and efficient, demonstrate program effectiveness, and are theologically sound can visit
the www.MinistryWatch.com website and find many ministries demonstrating these criteria. Donors considering this approach
need not be concerned that TBN’s ministry efforts will be thwarted, as TBN’s current vast financial resources ensure
its ability to continue its programs for at least two-and-a-half years even if every donor stopped their giving to TBN
immediately.
2. TBN’s leadership should voluntarily resign and allow an independent commission of respected Christian leaders to be put
in place to establish a pathway to restoring TBN to a place of unquestioned integrity in the minds of concerned donors. The
commission would be composed of experts in counseling, theology, charitable financial management, auditing, legal matters
and those representing donors’ interests. It would be responsible for analyzing the allegations and reporting their findings
to the public, putting in place a plan of restoration and picking a new and independent board of directors to carry out
these plans.
3. The new board should also complete a thorough overhaul of the ministry to put it on a path to teaching orthodox Christian
theology and operating in a manner that rejects potentially self-serving financial transactions and embraces sound governance
practices.
Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002
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andyman
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posted
Why does TBN get a "C"???
Their just the monster large ministry who strongly supports the "F" rated ministries, somehow they get a "C"?
...wtf? ![[Confused]](confused.gif)
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IN 2000, WE AMERICANS spent 94 Billion Dollars lavishly on our home churches. However, the average North American Christian gives only 50 CENTS a week to global missions.
Gospel for Asia - Fire on the Altar
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HisGrace
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by hardcore:
quote:
HisGrace:They are talking about donations to Wallwatchers for their "ministry research".
Based on the paragraph you posted (re-copied below), I don't think that's what they were talking about HisGrace. I think you misunderstood. HFHS - can you clarify? I very well may be missing something.
Re Wall Watcers
"How Should Donors Use Ministry Research?
Donors should use ministry research in the same way that investors use investment research - to make informed decisions. External research provides independent insight into the workings of an organization......."
The above quote is speaking about donations to WallWatchers themselves to do all of this 'research' (what just looks basically like mudslinging to me.)
I found the above quote under Wall Watchers' own site, listing features about themselves, yet they have a long list of articles about Donor Alerts to be wary of. It seems kind of hypoctrical that they are attempting to expose these churches who, we have to admit, do so much great missionary work and helping charites, when they are begging for funds for something which I find to be very futile and a waste of money.
Donors could find much more constructive and helpful ways to use their hard-earned cash.
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helpforhomeschoolers
Advanced Member
Member # 15
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posted
Harcore, it is my understanding that hisgrace has asserted that the budget of research organizations like wall watchers is not money well spent as it does not go to charity like the money that is taken in by organizations like Osteen's. He at least gives money to charity.
The validity of such an ascertation depends on several things.
1. Is an organization like Feed the Children the work of God or the work of men attempting to do what they see is God's work. I have no real knowledge of this group's work, but I note on their website that they do not say one word about spreading the gospel and that is not part of their mission statement. There is a lot of opportunity for discussion there.
2. Are the programs that organizations like Wall Watchers provides that teach Biblical principles of stewardship to include taking care to support organizations that preach the True Gospel and sound doctrine worthy of being funded in the eyes of God?
3. Does the outcome - hundreds of thousands of dollars raised for seemingly worthy causes, certainly blatantly obvious need - Hungry Children, as an example because Osteen does give tremendous amounts to this particular organization, does this outcome justify the means if the means is not rooted in the practice of what is sound scriptural doctrine?
4. The non program operating costs of Wall Watchers was in 2003 less than 75,000 dollars for the whole organization. Choosing Osteen because he was given as comparison, Osteen prior to the opening of the Megaplex as Lakewood's new home, took a personal Salary from the JOM of 200,000.00 annually - how does that compare in determining worthiness of one ministry over another? One man's salary vs an organization's operational expense?
5. Is this kind of research a necessary evil of the whole system of charitable giving to faith based organizations because of the choices of faith based organizations to claim tax exempt status which is in itself completely contrary to scripture. I think it is a necessary evil as I sited above - but hey it is an opinion and everybody has one.
I don't know if I clarified anything or even addressed what you wanted clarified. If not ask again and I will see what I can do.
Shalom!
Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002
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hardcore
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lars7:
A bigger place means more people coming to Christ and more people being fed the Word
SELAH
Ahhh. And herein lies the rub.
Are they really coming to Christ if there is no understanding of sin and repentance?
And are they really being fed the Word? Which word? The word according to Osteen or God?
Sadly, the evidence doesn't bode well in Osteen's favor, regardless of how "favorminded" he thinks he is.
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hardcore
Advanced Member
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posted
quote:
HisGrace:They are talking about donations to Wallwatchers for their "ministry research".
Based on the paragraph you posted (re-copied below), I don't think that's what they were talking about HisGrace. I think you misunderstood. HFHS - can you clarify? I very well may be missing something.
Re: Wall Watchers
"How Should Donors Use Ministry Research?
Donors should use ministry research in the same way that investors use investment research - to make informed decisions. External research provides independent insight into the workings of an organization. As stewards of the resources that God has entrusted to them (including both financial resources and mental capacity), donors have a responsibility to know how and why their money is being utilized in the way that it is. Giving does not stop at the writing of a check; this event marks only the beginning of an ongoing two-way relationship between the ministry and the donor. Both have entered into a relationship, and both must foster that relationship. Information is the tie that binds, out of which a level of trust is built between donor and ministry."
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HisGrace
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quote:
Originally posted by Lars7:
A respond with the Love of Christ.....why do we say things when we do not have all the facts
Amen - Joel Osteen has been accused of not talking about sin. He always gives an invitation after his broadcasts for viewers to come to Christ.
It goes like this. "Lord Jesus, I repent of my sins. I ask you to come into my heart. I make you the Lord of my life."
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helpforhomeschoolers
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quote:
We need to really come together as the body of Christ and take all our extra money and give to those in need. That way no one lacks. Thats how the first church in Acts did it I believe. Shalom
Praise God, this is the point!!!! Thank you Yahsway.
On another note: Speaking from a background in Non Profit Fund Development, I would say that organizations like Wall Watchers do provide a valuable service and are perhaps a necessary evil of our society.
A great deal of the giving that is done in this country is done in the form of estate planning and long term giving that continues to give to a charitable group or organization long after the donor is passed from this life and so a kind of network of systems come in to play and the legitimacy and commitment of each "cog in the wheel", so to speak, to principles of good stewardship and methods of accountability and record keeping, become essential to ensuring that the wheel continues to turn and the initial investment is not put at unnecessary risk.
When a foundation or a trust invests its dollars, it must choose avenues of investment that are themselves doing business in ethical and responsible ways if there is to be a limit on the risk of the funds invested, likewise when surpluses are dispersed, they must be donated to charities that practice good stewardship of those funds received as well as good methods of accountability and record keeping. If not then the donor and the receiver of these funds has legal and tax risk and liability.
Wall Watchers makes their IRS forms 990 available on their website and in 2003 for example, they had total revenue of roughly 216,000.00. Their management and fund raising costs were slightly less than 25% of their expenses and the remaining 75% was spent on programs. This is an excellent ratio between operating costs and program costs.
One of the programs that they provide is thegoodsteward.com which offers educational material and information on stewardship in the following subject areas: Biblical Principles, Life Stewardship (health, spiritual issues, talents, time management, relationships), The Environment (ecology, conservation, recycling, environmental management), Financial Matters (budgeting, saving, investing, taxes, insurance, estate planning), and Giving Wisely (tithing, responsible giving).
Additionally, in addition to in house researchers, Wall Watchers has a program that they call the Research Fellows Program which utilizes an independent network of information providers who are in the business of providing research to other fields. In this way they make use of information that is already gathered by independent researchers and needs not be duplicated.
So, yes, it would be nice if we lived in a society where we simply gave all that we had to the local assembly and they took it and divided it and used it to meet the needs of the local body and in our churches there were none that lacked; this was the way of the apostolic church and they also did render unto Caesar that which was Caesar's and did not have to answer to an IRS because they did not claim tax exemption and place themselves under bondage to an IRS. I whole heartedly think that we must get back to this place, but until we do, I think that organizations like Wall Watchers provide a valuable service.
In reality if we were doing church as the apostles did, there would be no giving to other local churches except as was given to the poor in the Church at Jerusalem, by the church in Rome did; and the local body would not be funding the works of independent self appointed teachers who were not sent out by their local body and were not under the spiritual covering of their local assembly and were not responsible and accountable to the elders in that assembly so none of this would be an issue.
This very thing ought to tell us something about the majority of those ministries in this article who received poor grades from Wall Watchers who do solicit donations from individual members of local assemblies.
Frankly, I would love to see the elders in the local church stand up and say, stop sending your money to the Meyers and the Copelands and the Duplantis-es, and start filling the needs in (this)your own body that none have lack among us. I think it is absolutely in their God ordained right to do this and would benefit the whole Body in the world if they would begin to do this. I think it is a tragedy that we sit on church pews with folks that sit silently unable to make mortgage payments or provide health care or medicine or whatever, do to loss of jobs, or illness or disability and have to depend on social services of the government, when their brothers and sisters are sending their money off to buy another jet for Jesse Duplantis.
When there is no lack in the local body because the local body is living in the practice and the principles of their covenant, then people are drawn to the local body because Jesus has been lifted up - In the day of the apostles, people wanted to get into the local body even though it meant persecution. Why? because God provides for those who live in covenant with HIM.
As it is the local body is living in lack and a few are living in abundance and sending the left overs to the world where the devourer devours it as fast as you can throw it at him. So we end up telling these poor people - here God can feed you for a day, but tomorrow you will still be in lack.
Who would want to get in on that - the local church is in lack - the world they feed remains in lack in spite of all they do.
Is it any wonder that we have resorted to drawing people to the things of the world to get them into our assemblies?
Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002
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Lars7
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posted
A respond with the Love of Christ.....why do we say things when we do not have all the facts?...lets just talk about Joel Osteans new building...Does anyone know how much money he donates to other ministries and feed the children programs....No!
How does anyone in here know if its not God thats directing him to do what He is doing!....none of us know anything about His dealings with God!....Yet we speak like we are his bookkeeper....A bigger place means more people coming to Christ and more people being fed the Word.....My church started in a small room with about 40 chairs....but the church grew over time and they need a bigger place to welcome all the new people....so now there in a 300 chair building.Should they have just kept the 40 chair room and turned the people away?....God has all the facts we do not....To me its great news in the Kingdom of Heaven when a church is growing and getting larger....that always means Heaven Full and Hell empty....We need to stop judging from what things look like on the surface and remember God was doing just fine with things before we came along....Many of the big ministries like Copeland and Joyce Myer have private jets and fancy this and fancy that....and it turns many people off....
But when you have ministries as big as these people and need to get to parts of the world to preach the Gospel it would make sense to me that God would bless them with all the tools they need to carry out there mission....If there was air travel in Pauls day I would bet that God would have found a way to get Paul in his own plane to get to parts of the world that otherwise he would not have been able to get to...If we instead spent the time we do judging and critizing others for what they are doing and took that time and spent it with our Father we would all be better served.
SELAH
Posts: 49 | From: Ma | Registered: Jul 2005
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TEXASGRANDMA
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gramajo,
I love going to Church. I love my Pastor. But, Joel Osteen says he does not preach about sin or use the term sinner. I can't help but wonder what the advantage of having a huge Church if you are not teaching the way to Jesus. Like it has been said you have to know what you have been saved from in order to recieve salvation.
I also have a problem with a Church that does not have a cross anywhere in the building. We have a wooden cross that is in the satuarary to remind us that the Jesus paid the price for our salvation on the cross. With out the cross there would be no salvation. Why would a Pastor avoid having a cross in his Church?
God bless and keep you GramaJo!
betty
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
http://www.indieheaven.com/artists/mm (son-in-law)http://www.myspace.com/mireles
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Gramajo320
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posted
People need to be able to fellowship with other christians and that cannpt be done by just watching Joel preach on television or reading books. We are supposed to fellowship with other christians as well as witnessing to all non-believers. Also things have changed tremendously since the church of Acts. The new building was built to accomodate all of the people who want to come to hear him preach. Many churches have outgrown their buildings and have had to build new ones in order to accomodate the ever growing congregations. The cost of constructing anything has just absolutely sky rocketed the same as all costs in all things have sky rocketed. It's the reality of today. Anyway Joel Osteen does contribute heavily to Feed the Chilren, also to the food banks there, and to the tsunami victims and I'm absolutely certain that he contributes quite heavily to many other charities. He does not want nor does he accept any kind of salary. He's a born again believer in Jesus Christ, so is his wife, and God knows exactly what is in their hearts and exactly what all they do to further the work of His kingdom.
I'd like to give you just one example of sky rocketing costs. I have a neighbor here in my complex who has cancer and has to have chemo and also has to have medicines. He has to pay $1,000.00 per pill for his medications which is so terribly outrageous! Again that's the reality of today - we are living in 2005 and not back in bibical times. Everything is absolutely terribly expensive and millions of people struggle daily just to survive and subsist. I myself am considered to be very extremely low income by federal guidelines. I manage and I don't worry about it for God provides.
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Gramajo320
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yahsway
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Thanks HG, No, I would not give to a "watcher" group as I am a watcher myself. No need for that. That money could be used for the church as well. Shalom
Posts: 1238 | From: Tennessee | Registered: Aug 2004
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HisGrace
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quote:
Originally posted by yahsway:
I agree Hisgrace, Joel Olsteen could have used that $90 million dollars to feed and house the poor instead of buying and rentavating yet another "building". How sad the churches of todays priorities are so mixed up.
People are worth more than buildings. We should invest in people, not more stuff. Shalom
You misunderstood my post yahsway. They are talking about donations to Wallwatchers for their "ministry research". They could use that money in many more productive ways. Their cash intake obviously goes only to research, and not to charities, which at least these ministries support. I have laid out charities that Joel Osteen is involved in on another thread.
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yahsway
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GJ, That is very commendable. I too give to feed the children, and we have sent some money to the tsunami victims. We have several friends here in the states who lost relatives in that disaster.
And yes, you are correct that building buildings these days here in the U.S. is phenominal to say the least, so my question is why build it? Those people could just as well watch Olsteen on TV, or buy his books and that money could have helped a lot of people, dont you agree.
My point is this, PEOPLE are more important than "buildings", Would you not agree?
I am not judging or knocking Olsteen as a person, I am just saying that our priorities are out of wack. PEOPLE are more important than man-made anything.
As for me personally, I just see it as such a waste of money when there are bigger problems, even here in America, than having to have a bigger-building.
Im just saying that JO had a big enough building, and what a wonderful thing he could have done if he had just given the 90 million to those truly in need of it. We need to really come together as the body of Christ and take all our extra money and give to those in need. That way no one lacks. Thats how the first church in Acts did it I believe. Shalom
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Gramajo320
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posted
The truth of the matter is Joel Osteen partners with Feeding The Children and has provided over 3 million pounds of food for the children and he also donates to the tsunami victims. He also donates ever so much money.
Insofar as the new building they needed the extra room to hold all of the people who come to hear him preach. As we all know the costs of constructing anything is monumental these days. Anyway Joel Osteen contributes heavily to Feeding The Children and to the tsunami victims - not with just food but also donates ever so much money. Also he does not accept any type of salary for himself. He is a very honest born again christian and God knows exactly what is in Joel Osteen's heart and what he believes.
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Gramajo320
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yahsway
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I agree Hisgrace, Joel Olsteen could have used that $90 million dollars to feed and house the poor instead of buying and rentavating yet another "building". How sad the churches of todays priorities are so mixed up.
People are worth more than buildings. We should invest in people, not more stuff. Shalom
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HisGrace
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Oh good - we are on common ground. I feel kind of naughty when I go into Exposing False Teaching.
Re: Wall Watchers
"How Should Donors Use Ministry Research?
Donors should use ministry research in the same way that investors use investment research - to make informed decisions. External research provides independent insight into the workings of an organization. As stewards of the resources that God has entrusted to them (including both financial resources and mental capacity), donors have a responsibility to know how and why their money is being utilized in the way that it is. Giving does not stop at the writing of a check; this event marks only the beginning of an ongoing two-way relationship between the ministry and the donor. Both have entered into a relationship, and both must foster that relationship. Information is the tie that binds, out of which a level of trust is built between donor and ministry."
What a futile waste of cash. Wouldn't it better used helping the starving in Africa or Tsunami victims????
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helpforhomeschoolers
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Donors Beware!
Wall Watchers calls on donors to so-called Word of Faith ministries to closely examine their giving to these ministries.
Why?
First, Word of Faith ministries often teach controversial and unorthodox theology that frequently seems self-serving.
As a result, donors may be unaware that they are supporting ministries that are leading the Lord’s people away from the truth of scripture.
Second, these ministries refuse to make consolidated audited financial statements easily available to anyone, including donor advocates like Wall Watchers. Until such time as these ministries receive a both high Transparency Grade from Wall Watchers’ www.MinistryWatch.com website and begin teaching biblically based
messages, we urge donors to cease making contributions to these ministries as no one can be sure that the donated money is
being used wisely and in line with both the ministries’ calling and donor wishes.
Word of Faith Ministry Transparency
Grade
Benny Hinn Ministries/ World Outreach Church F
Breakthrough Ministries / Rod Parsely F
Creflo Dollar Ministries F
Ever Increasing Faith Ministries / Fred Price F
Kenneth Copeland Ministries F
Kenneth Hagin Ministries F
Life in the Word, Inc. / Joyce Meyer F
Prophetic Image Expressions / Kim Clement F
Trinity Broadcasting Network / TBN C
Doctrinal error and an absence of financial accountability have typically been hallmarks throughout church history of ministries that are fleecing the flock. The following is a list of the Word of Faith ministries that Wall Watchers has identified as both doctrinally suspect and which also receive low Transparency Grades from our www.MinistryWatch.com website:
As can be seen above, the wide variety of Word of Faith ministries comprises a movement rather than a formal organized group. The
movement goes by some of the following names: Word of Faith, Health & Wealth Gospel, Positive Confession, Name it and Claim it, and Faith-formula. There is no founder per se; however, it can be traced to the cultic teachings of New Thought metaphysics and thus, much of the theology of the Word of Faith movement can
also be found in pseudo-Christian cults as Christian Science, Unity School of Christianity and Religious Science.
‘Viewer Discretion Advised'
We will first address the question of doctrinal error among the Word of Faith ministries.
One of the more troubling theological aspects Word of Faith teachers is the use of the term “anointed.”
There is no Scriptural foundation for claims of modern “anointed” ministry personalities that they are extra specially endowed with an “anointing” from God, above the average Christian.
These “anointings” can take a wide variety of forms including anointed handkerchiefs or other trinkets that will bring the TV viewer physical healing or meet some other need in their life.
Since the minister has this anointing the viewer is encouraged to access this power through financial support of the ministry.
These self-proclaimed “anointed” ministers seem to indicate at times that they are above the day-to-day fray of life issues and beyond reproach.
Some newly “anointed” ministry personalities claim supernatural powers, with electrifying experiences that seem to create the impression that they are on par with God.
One wonders whether these displays are concocted to entertain and emotionally engage the audience on the false pretense that the viewer will receive a blessing from God by supporting these wayward ministers.
While the Bible clearly recounts stories of men that God endowed with miraculous powers, the behavior of the Word of Faith “anointed” ministers falls far short of that revealed in scripture.
In particular, the focus on money by the self-proclaimed anointed ministers in the Word of Faith movement is in sharp contrast to
that of the apostles Paul, Peter and others who performed miracles in the service of Christ.
These true servants never sought financial
gain and the evidence of scripture seems to indicate they endured a degree of poverty as well as a number of other indignities. While
the Word of Faith movement’s leaders may provide some practical advice from time to time, the preponderance of doctrinal error in their teaching and focus on money should cause
donors to be highly skeptical of these ministries.
This skepticism is made all the greater by the refusal of these ministries to openly and honestly reveal how much money they collect and how it is spent to advance the cause of Christ through their ministry.
Donors, who we estimate contribute over $500 million annually tothese ministries, need to be careful that they are not supporting an
aberration of God’s word rather than a truly anointed ministry.
Viewer discretion is strongly advised when dealing with the TV-based Word of Faith movement’s preachers!
Characteristics of Word Of Faith Ministries
Not all Word of faith ministries have the same teaching or structure;
however, the following seem to be some of the typical characteristics
of these ministries:
· TV-based with an emphasis on performance versus substance
· Legally organized as a church in order to avoid financial disclosures;
however, it is not what would commonly be known
as a traditional congregational church
· Tightly controlled by a few who are often family members
· Financially non-transparent – get a “F” Transparency Grade
from www.MinistryWatch.com
· Questionable theology, with a predominant emphasis on
“anointed” ministers and the health and wealth of viewers/
donors. Other notable issues are efforts to create reality
through the power of positive affirmation as well as the use of
such terms such as the force of faith, the God-kind of faith,
spiritual death of Christ, born-again Jesus, and authority of the
believer.
· Distortion of scripture and truth with “feel good” concepts
dominating, coupled with the utilization of methods customarily
employed to manipulate the emotions of viewers/
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