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Author
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Topic: I DON'T believe in the Pre tribilation Rapture
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Eduardo Grequi
Advanced Member
Member # 3984
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posted
There are many ways to interpret the scriptures as there are christians in the fold. First there is a meeting in the Air! Point Blank!!!!! This is the rapture. I believe that sometime whenever God decides it is time then that is the time. Matthew 24 the disciples asked Jesus 3 questions. They are distinct in nature Matt. 24:3
!) Tell us when shall these things be?
2)what shall be the sign of thy coming?
3)and of the end of the world?
Answer those questions in the context of the chapter.
1 Thess 4:13-18. being caught up in the clouds.
Whether you believe pre/ during or post trib -it is up to you to come to terms with it. I personally believe he will come back anytime because there has been a great falling away from him. The nations that used to evangilize in Europe, now need evangilizing and so does the USA. There is a great falling away from the righteousness of God. Righteousnes of God wis defind as being in obediencce of statutes, His commandments. We generally speaking in this entire WORLD- We do not love our neighbors nor do we love God wholeheartedly like we should.Most would only believe if they can get something out of Him to better themselves in the moth-eaten world.WHERE is your treasure stored? on EARTH or IN heaven. WE only help if there is something to gain out of it. AND sadly to say the so called Christians do this too. We will not greet brethern when they differ on secondary issues. REMEMBER the deciding factor is WHAT HAVE YE DONE WITH JESUS AND HIS GOSPEL? YOu need to define the GOSPEL and not add unto it nor subtract from it.
Jesus will come as a thief in the night and you will not be passing on the Gospel. Do not fret what things are in grey thought, but know He says Behold I come quickly- BE YE READY
Posts: 771 | From: Belvidere, IL | Registered: Oct 2004
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whitesands777
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Member # 3424
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Favor Minded:
John 14:1-3: "Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also." This is not His coming to the earth. This is the point at which He receives us unto Himself at the great Rapture - the snatching away - to be with Him in heaven as the seven years of torment occur on earth. The second reference is in John 11:25,26. Christ said: "I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?"
Jesus is contrasting those who experience death and live again ("for the dead in Christ rise first," I Thessalonians 4:16) with those who never experience death (because "we which are alive and remain" are caught up without dying, I Thessalonians 4:17).
It's a fact that God always spares His own from judgment. When the horrendous worldwide flood came in Noah's day, Noah told those who were prepared to COME INTO the ark, Genesis 7:7. When the judgment fell on Sodom and Gomorrah in Genesis 19:14, the angels told Lot and his family to COME OUT of the city. Notice this trilogy: In Noah's day, it was COME IN. In Lot's day it was COME OUT. In our day, it will be COME UP, Revelation 4:1.
So, you're saying that we get raptured and escape 7 years of torment on the earth.
We know that the dead in Christ rise first...Is it neccessary for the dead to escape the torment on the earth ?
Where in the Bible does it say there are 7 years of torment ?
I've only seen verses which indicate that the tribulation is 3 1/2 years that occur during the final 7 years.
Posts: 501 | Registered: May 2004
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Favor Minded
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Member # 4661
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posted
John 14:1-3: "Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also." This is not His coming to the earth. This is the point at which He receives us unto Himself at the great Rapture - the snatching away - to be with Him in heaven as the seven years of torment occur on earth. The second reference is in John 11:25,26. Christ said: "I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?"
Jesus is contrasting those who experience death and live again ("for the dead in Christ rise first," I Thessalonians 4:16) with those who never experience death (because "we which are alive and remain" are caught up without dying, I Thessalonians 4:17).
It's a fact that God always spares His own from judgment. When the horrendous worldwide flood came in Noah's day, Noah told those who were prepared to COME INTO the ark, Genesis 7:7. When the judgment fell on Sodom and Gomorrah in Genesis 19:14, the angels told Lot and his family to COME OUT of the city. Notice this trilogy: In Noah's day, it was COME IN. In Lot's day it was COME OUT. In our day, it will be COME UP, Revelation 4:1.
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Matthew 24:36
"No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father
Posts: 129 | From: WA | Registered: May 2005
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whitesands777
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Member # 3424
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by helpforhomeschoolers:
quote:
Noah was in that ark for a full 7 days before the rains came. And the ark that he was in was lift up on the waters above the earth.
Noah and his family were lifted up after the 7 days...
It appears that the ark (that saved him and his family) can be likened to Jesus that saves us....Noah was in the ark like we that are in Jesus Christ , wether we are alive or dead, will be lifted up after 7 years.
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whitesands777
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Member # 3424
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by helpforhomeschoolers:
Weddings are a week long event:
Genesis 29:26 And Laban said, It must not be so done in our country, to give the younger before the firstborn. {country: Heb. place}
27 Fulfil her week, and we will give thee this also for the service which thou shalt serve with me yet seven other years.
28 And Jacob did so, and fulfilled her week: and he gave him Rachel his daughter to wife also.
Jacob got married at the end of the 7 years...
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Thunderz7
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Member # 31
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posted
I agree that both OT and NT have scripture that can be used to support Pre-trib.
Also both OT and NT have scripture to support all the other theories on the subject.
I see the scriptures used, along with the traditional ancent Jewish wedding traditions, to be some of the strongest "support" for the pre-trib cause.
{I used "support" and not "argument" as I hope this doesn't turn into one.}
I don't think Noah is a good "support".
Yes the ark did rise above the ground, but it was still in the water, still in the flood and in the rain.
I think Mt.24:1-31 is among the strongest "support" for non Pre-trib.
v13-endure to the end
v15-you you shall see the abominatiion of desolation
v21-there shall be great tribulation
v24-the elect are still here
v29-after the tribulation
v30-then the Son of man in the clouds
v31-sound of the trump and angels gathering the elect, who are still here.
Also Mt.13 -wheat and tares-
wheat is still planted when tares are gathered and thrown in the fire.
T7
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TEXASGRANDMA
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Member # 847
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posted
I was honestly confused and just was checking. I meant no disrespect. My thinking cap is kind of out of joint today. ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
betty
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
http://www.indieheaven.com/artists/mm (son-in-law)http://www.myspace.com/mireles
Posts: 4985 | From: Washington State | Registered: Jan 2003
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helpforhomeschoolers
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Member # 15
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posted
I am saying that I think the story of Noah shows a pretrib rapture. Noah and his family were in the ark 7 days before the rains even began.
The ark rose above the earth.
I do indeed believe in a pretrib rapture and I believe that the OT and the NT show a pre trib rapture in many many ways.
Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002
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TEXASGRANDMA
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Member # 847
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posted
Linda,
Are you saying you do not believe in the Pre-Trib rapture? I am confused at what you are trying to say. The 7 days Noah was shut up, the people were not afraid and were not beating on the door. Once the trib starts people will be angry. The Bible talks about how they will curse God and if Christians were stil here they would be killing all the Christians.
betty
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
http://www.indieheaven.com/artists/mm (son-in-law)http://www.myspace.com/mireles
Posts: 4985 | From: Washington State | Registered: Jan 2003
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helpforhomeschoolers
Advanced Member
Member # 15
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posted
Weddings are a week long event:
Genesis 29:26 And Laban said, It must not be so done in our country, to give the younger before the firstborn. {country: Heb. place}
27 Fulfil her week, and we will give thee this also for the service which thou shalt serve with me yet seven other years.
28 And Jacob did so, and fulfilled her week: and he gave him Rachel his daughter to wife also.
Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002
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helpforhomeschoolers
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Member # 15
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posted
quote:
Noah was saved in the ark on the same day that everyone else was drowning outside the ark
Noah was in that ark for a full 7 days before the rains came. And the ark that he was in was lift up on the waters above the earth.
Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002
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TEXASGRANDMA
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Member # 847
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posted
It has been said that because God put Noah in a boat during the flood that somehow means that God will do the same for Christians during the tribulation. In my way of thinking, He will in the sense that, God will take Christians off the earth to safety in Heaven.
If there was no pre-trib rapture, there is really no way to protect Christians from the anit-christ. We are not all at one place where we could be hidden in a bubble. Christians are spread out all over the world. Christians live side by side and even in the same house as unsaved.
When the flood came, the people of the earth died rather quickly. Can you imagine the torment it would have been for Noah if they had heard screaming, cussing, and beating on the ark for the entire time there were in there? Even if God protected Christians from the plaques, there would be great despair from seeing your friends and your loved ones suffer. There would be no peace because the Christians would be tormented day and night, simply because Christians would be blamed for their pain.
I realize that those who do not believe in the pre-trib will never change their minds. That is their right, but look at it like this. God prepared Noah and taught him how to prepare the ark. If God had intended us to build an ark or stock pile food, He would have put it in the Bible. God told the Christian to do on thing in preparation for the trib and that is being waiting for Jesus return. God does not intend on the Christian being here for the tribulation. We are to be in Heaven with Him for the marriage supper of the Lamb.
It is wrong to teach people to prepare for the tribulation or seek to steal their blessed hope. For the Bible truly says Jesus’ return for His children is the blessed hope.
So don’t bother worrying about how you will survive the tribulation. If your heart is right with God, you will be in Heaven during the tribulation. There will be no little children starving during the tribulation because all children will go up in the rapture who are not the age of accountability. So, if your children are at the age accountability, then teach them God’s Word so they can be saved and spared the wrath of God.
Looking for the Blessed Hope,
Betty
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
http://www.indieheaven.com/artists/mm (son-in-law)http://www.myspace.com/mireles
Posts: 4985 | From: Washington State | Registered: Jan 2003
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TEXASGRANDMA
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Member # 847
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posted
QUESTION: What Bible verses are cited by those who believe in a “pre-tribulation rapture?”
ANSWER: II Peter 3:10, Luke 12:39-40, I Thess 5:2,4, Revelation 16:15
All of these verses say that Christ's coming will be a surprise, very sudden, "like a thief in the night."
ANSWER: Matthew 24:40-42 "Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left". "Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left". "Watch ye therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come." ( also Luke 17:26-37)
ANSWER: I Thessalonians 4:17 "Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."
ANSWER: Revelation 3:10 "Because you have kept my command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth". NKJ
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
http://www.indieheaven.com/artists/mm (son-in-law)http://www.myspace.com/mireles
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chris777
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Member # 4638
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posted
Does anyone know of any Scripture verses, that support a secret rapture?
or even web links would work.
I have heard some new perspective from several of you, and am interested in digging deeper.
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becauseHElives
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Member # 87
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posted
over 68 million Blood Bought Children of Yahweh were murdered by the Roman Catholic Church during the period known as the inquisition.
these 68 millions only sin/crime was to refuse to worship the pope.
But the 68 million souls, had taken up their cross and died to self before they came to the place of execution.
Only those that are taking up their cross daily, as a true disciple of Yeshua will be in the Kingdom of yahweh on that day we stand before the Judge of all men/women.
The True child of Yahweh, will escape His Wrath as He pours it out on this earth.
but if Yeshua delays His coming much longer, American's will suffer the same horrors of tribulation, and persucution that other Believers are experiencing now.
remember if you denigh Yeshua before men, He will denigh knowing you before the Heavenly Father.
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
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luvfreelife
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Member # 4642
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posted
Our Father knows what's best for us. I'm not going to worry about it. If I must be killed, then they only take my body, not my soul.
So whatever my heavenly Father wants, I will do.
God Bless all of you,
luvfreelife
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TEXASGRANDMA
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Member # 847
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posted
What is going to happen in the Tribulation is different than anything that has ever every happened on this earth. That is why God is going to remove His Church, the Bible even says the Holy Spirit will no longer be here in the same capacity as it is now, when the tribulation takes place.
betty
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
http://www.indieheaven.com/artists/mm (son-in-law)http://www.myspace.com/mireles
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chris777
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Member # 4638
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posted
here is a second verse that puzzles me
Well its a Psalm
Psalm 91
1He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty.
2I will say of the LORD, He is my refuge and my fortress: my God; in him will I trust.
3Surely he shall deliver thee from the snare of the fowler, and from the noisome pestilence.
4He shall cover thee with his feathers, and under his wings shalt thou trust: his truth shall be thy shield and buckler.
5Thou shalt not be afraid for the terror by night; nor for the arrow that flieth by day;
6Nor for the pestilence that walketh in darkness; nor for the destruction that wasteth at noonday.
7A thousand shall fall at thy side, and ten thousand at thy right hand; but it shall not come nigh thee.
8Only with thine eyes shalt thou behold and see the reward of the wicked.
9Because thou hast made the LORD, which is my refuge, even the most High, thy habitation;
10There shall no evil befall thee, neither shall any plague come nigh thy dwelling.
11For he shall give his angels charge over thee, to keep thee in all thy ways.
12They shall bear thee up in their hands, lest thou dash thy foot against a stone.
13Thou shalt tread upon the lion and adder: the young lion and the dragon shalt thou trample under feet.
14Because he hath set his love upon me, therefore will I deliver him: I will set him on high, because he hath known my name.
15He shall call upon me, and I will answer him: I will be with him in trouble; I will deliver him, and honour him.
16With long life will I satisfy him, and shew him my salvation.
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chris777
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Member # 4638
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posted
quote:
How many of us could really resist not getting the mark if our children and loved ones were dying of hunger? Could you allow your 5 yr old to die from hunger? To be honest, I dont know if I could. To sit there and kill my son by letting him starve. To hear him ask me for something to eat day in and day out until he died. I honestly dont think God would put us in the situation bc he knows the flesh would overcome us and do the wrong thing.
FAITH
Abraham and Issac
Heb 11:17-19
quote:
I m looking forward to Jesus coming back too. But if we have to go thru all the things the Bible says will happen, honestly, I m scared too."
Question if you had been a hebrew slave before the Exodus, would you have been afraid during the judgements? Especially during the last one?
If so why? and if not why not?
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luvfreelife
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Member # 4642
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posted
Hi Chris,
The bible is consistent, but one has to devote a lot of time reading it.
Acts 28:27 For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
Essentially, chris, you need to discuss your readings with some one that is more familiar with the bible. Also I have some nice freeware programs that greatly assist in studying the bible. I will post you later on the urls to go to later.
The bible is quite complex and intricately woven, and it takes load of time to become a bible scholar. I have been studying it a great deal in the last year or so and it amazes me on what I learn each time I read it. The more one learns,the more one loves our Lord, you can't help it, his love and wisdom just makes it inevitable.
I'm not sure about your location on 2 thess 2 ?? chapter, verse??
As for as the rapture is concerned, I only know of one for the church. This is a little ambiguous, many people have different views on that subject,and I am currently scanning the bible on that, because one should only go by the bible and what it says.
This is a very good web site covering the book of revelations
http://momentin.com/revstudy/revstudy.html#5
I don't entirely agree with him on certain things, and have written him about it, but so far no response.
God bless, my friend,
luvfreelife
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shadowmaker
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Member # 3696
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by chris777:
I Recently heard A news story where someone
Climbed out of their sunroof on the highway thinking they were being Raptured , after seeing some college kids Dressed As Jesus, and Angels on A truch In Front of them.
She was killed , and I believe their were several people injured in the resulting accident.
the Website posting it was mocking Christians.
This didnt happen at all. It was a hoax by some atheists making fun of Christians. But it didnt really happen.
I agree with Betty about the Bible not speaking of stockpiling food. How many of us could really resist not getting the mark if our children and loved ones were dying of hunger? Could you allow your 5 yr old to die from hunger? To be honest, I dont know if I could. To sit there and kill my son by letting him starve. To hear him ask me for something to eat day in and day out until he died. I honestly dont think God would put us in the situation bc he knows the flesh would overcome us and do the wrong thing.
I m looking forward to Jesus coming back too. But if we have to go thru all the things the Bible says will happen, honestly, I m scared too.
Brad
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TEXASGRANDMA
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posted
Luk 21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.
1Th 5:9For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
1Th 4:13But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 1Th 4:14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him1Th 4:15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive [and] remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 1Th 4:17Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 1Th 4:18Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
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I have no fear of the Tribulation. Like Paul said, I comfort myself with the Word of God.
I believe God will keep His promsie and remove His Church before the tribulation.
I have no disagreement with anyone. I choose to believe God's Word and am at peace with that.
betty
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
http://www.indieheaven.com/artists/mm (son-in-law)http://www.myspace.com/mireles
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chris777
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Member # 4638
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posted
No where in the Bible does it teach for Christians to stock pile food. It teaches us to be looking for the return of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ.
I agree, Jesus said not to lay treasurs up on yearth where they could rot or be stolen.
but he also said that God provides for the birds of the air, and how much mor so he would provide for us
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chris777
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Member # 4638
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posted
I believe the devil is causing people to doubt the pre-trib for several reasons.
1. It gives people on the fence a sense that they can wait until the trib to get saved.
Their arent enough workers in the field to take up the harvest for me to wait.
2. It puts fear in Christians hearts so that instead of focusing on living for God now, they become fear ful of what they think will come.
The bible is clear that God will Provide
He sustained israel for 40 years in the wilderness during exodus
3. It divides the Church and takes people off what is really important wittnessing to the lost.
Jesus Came to divide us, how many cults do you see sucking people into damnation, not to mention false religions.
Its like the Homosexual issue, it is divisive
but the bible says what it says, and no matter what people want it doesnt change God.
I believe with all my heart that if the Church was intended on going through the tribulation, Paul would have given us intruction on how to do that. But the Bible points to the Christian looking for the blessed hope. No where in the Bible does it teach Christians how to withstand the tribulation. The Bible is filled with many teaching on how to live a Christian life. God would not have left us unprepared if it was God's plan for us to endear the tribulation. Instead God tells us to look for our blessed hope, be ever watching for the return of Jesus. This is no mistake on God's part. A Christian is to be ready for the rapture. That is all the instruction we need. We have no need to fear because God never intended for His wrath to be poured out on the Church. His wrath is for those who rejected His Son.
I never said we would face the tribulation, God protected daniel from the lions, as well as the furnace, , as well as providing a hedge of protection from pharo during the exodus.
Look at history their have already been events that were horrible, that many took as signs, and I have no doubt they are, but for example, the Black plague, the recent tidal wave, wars ect.
I realize that the tribulation will be like all of those things combined and then some, but Christians lived through them. Just like the Jews survived the holocaust.
I talked to someone last night, who's children are not saved about how we need to pray for the lost because Jesus is coming soon. She is saved. Her attitude was like we have plenty of time and she wasn't worried about it. It is this attitude that will leave those we love behind after the rapture. The Bible says that in the last days people will fall away. I think even some Christians that are truly saved will began to doubt and stop praying for their lost loved ones. Though they are saved and will be raptured, they will have to bear the pain of seeing their loved ones left behind. If the Church is not ready and watching how will the Church stressed the need for getting right with God to the lost before it is too late? Those who insist that Jesus is coming after the tribulation are giving those who are putting off gettting saved, a false secuity.
I dont think it will be after, But thats the point we don't know when, the very same arguement you use about people waiting because they think they have time, could be said about the Pre trib Rapture, I have heard Doctrines like the LEft behind Fictional Books talking about those left behind suddenly converting once they realize they were left behind. Just like you said God doesnt instruct us how to survive tribulation, it also doesnt instruct those who are left behind to suddenly preach to the other lost.
It doesn't make sence in that we are trying hard now to spread the gospel, why would god pull us out of the field, when we already are at work on the harvest, and then suddenly put in "Pinch hitters" who only convert after they realize they were left behind?
Shame on all of us and me for not praying harder and doing all we can to reach our loved ones and friends before it is too late. God help us to have the fierece watchfulness of Paul! Paul was looking for the blessed hope!
But again where in scripture is the blessed hope distinguished as a second seperate event from the coming of our lord?
Again I am not Trying to Stir up Strife, The Sawm Way you are Concerned about people Truning, away Without A rapture, I am concerned they Will Turn Away IF their isnt.
I Recently heard A news story where someone
Climbed out of their sunroof on the highway thinking they were being Raptured , after seeing some college kids Dressed As Jesus, and Angels on A truch In Front of them.
She was killed , and I believe their were several people injured in the resulting accident.
the Website posting it was mocking Christians.
But I hear alot of people who believe in the rapture , not really trying, because they think they will be out of here when things get really bad.
I think about my life, and Im almost 30, and looking at history, I personally have never experienced one of those horrible events , Other than 911, but Ive been expecting that, so it was no surprise, neither was the Tsunami, other than, i would classify it as more of an earht quake.
Again I am looking For scriptural evidence, that they are seperate, I do appreciate Your view about God not specifically providing instructions, on facing tribulation, as I havent heard that view before, but like I said From What I Read in the Scriptures, I think God Will Protect, the workers of the harvest, and provide for them. However, martyrs are also mentioned on a few ocasions in scripture as well.
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BORN AGAIN
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correct, not stockpile food.
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TEXASGRANDMA
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But not stock pile food.
I of course believe the rapture will take place first. I pray every day for that to be true.
betty
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
http://www.indieheaven.com/artists/mm (son-in-law)http://www.myspace.com/mireles
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BORN AGAIN
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TEXASGRANDMA says quote:
no offense but I am interested in what the New Testament says we should do to prepare for the tibulation.
Uhh...to prepare for the trib we should read the Bible.
God bless, ![[Cross]](graemlins/cross.gif) BORN AGAIN
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TEXASGRANDMA
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no offense but I am interested in what the New Testament says we should do to prepare for the tibulation.
betty.
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
http://www.indieheaven.com/artists/mm (son-in-law)http://www.myspace.com/mireles
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BORN AGAIN
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TEXASGRANDMA, the Israelites in the land of Goshen lacked nothing during the plagues which preceded the Exodus. Jehovah Jireh will provide, neither is His hand shortened that He cannot save. If you seek the kingdom of God, all these things shall be added unto you. Your heavenly Father knows what you have need of.
God bless, BORN AGAIN
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TEXASGRANDMA
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I agree you should share what you have with others. I am curious though is there a scripture that actually says in the last days to stock pile up food for the tribulation. My studies have always led me to believe that we should be busy wittnessing about Jesus and looking for Jesus return instead.
betty
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
http://www.indieheaven.com/artists/mm (son-in-law)http://www.myspace.com/mireles
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peh
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TexasG: Maybe not directly to Christians but for His people, it certainly is in Scripture: Gen 41:35 And let them gather all the food of those good years that come, and lay up corn under the hand of Pharaoh, and let them keep food in the cities.
James 2:15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, 16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? (Hard to do if you don't have a supply on hand)
One need not "stockpile" nor hoard to have enough to give away.
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St. Peh
I don't know everything but I know the One Who does.
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I believe that the Rapture (the catching up of the saints who are still alive on earth at that time) and the Second Coming of Christ will occur on the same day.
The Biblical patterns pretty consistently show that:
- the wheat and the tares are still together in the field when the angels come to harvest.
- the good fish and the bad fish are still together in the net when the bad fish are thrown away and the good kept
- two are still in the bed together, one is taken, the other is left
- Rahab was saved on the same day that everyone else in Jericho was killed
- Lot was saved in Zoar on the same day that everyone in Sodom and Gomorrah was killed
- the Egyptians were killed on the same day that in Goshen the Israelites were saved
- the Exodus out of Egypt, which is a type of our exit out of the world, followed the plagues; the Exodus did not precede the plagues
- Shadrach, Meshech and Abednego were saved from the fiery furnace on the same day that their accusers were thrown into the fiery furnace
- Daniel was saved from the lion's den on the same day that his accusers were thrown in
- Noah was saved in the ark on the same day that everyone else was drowning outside the ark
Luke 17:26
And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.
God bless, BORN AGAIN
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TEXASGRANDMA
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No where in the Bible does it teach for Christians to stock pile food. It teaches us to be looking for the return of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ. I believe when the mark takes place Christians will be in Heaven with Jesus.
betty
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
http://www.indieheaven.com/artists/mm (son-in-law)http://www.myspace.com/mireles
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peh
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That's cool, Brad, but I'd still find out where fellow Christians live and who has supplies laid up...ya know what I mean?
Buying and selling doesn't necessarily only take place with money and charge cards at Walmart or the grocery store. And if I have water, you're a brother and you don't, don't you agree that I must, in order to practice my faith, share with you?
I don't know if we will be Spirited away (pun intended) before, during, or after the tribulation, if at all.
I've read convincing arguments for all 4 views, plus those that say the tribulation has already happened in the distant past of history, maybe the black death or when the first Christians were martyred, I'm not sure about all that.
I am aware, also, that most of us, including me, don't know our Christian history or world history, for that matter.
I know this much: it is mandatory to watch and pray for worthiness to escape tribulation. It says this in Luke 21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.
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St. Peh
I don't know everything but I know the One Who does.
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shadowmaker
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I also believe in the pretribilation. I honestly dont think God will make his children go thru the horrible times that will occur. Thats just like taking the mark of the beast. It says people wont be able to buy or sell anything without it. I believe by the time that comes into play, we ll be gone.
Brad
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Caretaker
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From the Word I too believe in a pre-trib catching-away of the Bride of Christ, but I also am prepared for a great falling away and persecution for our faith as the early Church suffered. In the sentiments of Brother Paul, "to live is Christ and to die is gain for to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord".
Like a Bride who waits for her Bridegroom, we should be most anxious with anticipation. HE is coming for His Bride, and we just need to be ready for His return at any moment.
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A Servant of Christ,
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16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..
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TEXASGRANDMA
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My heart is ready for Jesus to come today. Yes, I do make plans, like tonight is Bible Study and I plan on going and I bought groceries for a week yestereday, but if Jesus comes this miniute, the world can have all of my food and anything in my apartment.
I think it is possible to plan for the future and yet still be ready to go the moment we hear the trumpet sounds. The problem comes if we get so caught up in possessions that we prefer to be left behind for them.
We have to make doctors appointments and such things for the future. But we need to be ready in our hearts to leave in a moment's notice without a care for what will be left behind.
bety
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
http://www.indieheaven.com/artists/mm (son-in-law)http://www.myspace.com/mireles
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becauseHElives
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Don't get "Tribulation" confused with the "GREAT TRIBULATION",the followers of Yashua are promised tribulation, persecution and to be hated by all men for the Gospel sake.
But the Bride of Yahshua will not experence the "WRATH" of Yahweh.
The Wrath of Yahweh does not begin till the breaking of the sixth seal.
below is from...
http://www.raptureready.com/rr-think-not.html
I think the writer has some good points of view.
Warnings Galore
The Bible predicts that someday a period of unparalleled calamity will sweep over this planet. During the time commonly known as the tribulation, the loss of life will be so great, nearly all the inhabitants of the earth will perish. You would think the bleak nature of these future events would cause people to be forever mindful of them. Sadly, only a small percentage of the population is focused on the end times.
Ignorance of Bible prophecy is not the root cause of the problem. The vast majority of Americans are very familiar with many of the key components of the tribulation hour. According to Barna Research, 70 percent of the U.S. population believes that someday Jesus is coming back to earth. The same number of people are familiar with terms like tribulation, Antichrist, 666, or Armageddon and they realize their negative connotations.
The understanding of prophecy may be very broad, but it is also extremely shallow. Everyone knows that 666 is a demonic number linked to the devil, but few people could tell you why it has a sinister association with evil.
The lack of fundamental end-time knowledge is not due to a shortage of resource material. Throughout the Church Age, scholars have produced a mountain of books exploring every conceivable angle of prophecy. In recent years, many of these titles have sold millions of copies.
Warnings that Judgment Day is coming have been sounded repeatedly, but few people are listening to them. In most minds, the cares of this world have largely overwhelmed any concerns over predictions of doom. The best evidence of this reality is the rampant growth in sin - the very thing that will invoke God's wrath.
Drowning In A Sea Of Signs
Mankind has a natural tendency to become desensitized to things that don't involve the current environment. Even issues that deal with matters of life and death fade from people's memories without something to renew their importance.
During prolonged warfare, frontline soldiers can get so accustomed to the thundering sound of incoming artillery shells that they become able to sleep through the heaviest bombardments. It doesn't matter to them that a shell directly aimed at their location would end their life. That danger is muted by the fact that the experienced soldier has heard the sound of artillery thousands of times. In contrast, a GI who has just arrived on the battlefield would be very alert to even the most distant enemy fire.
In my many years of observing the signs of the times, I have never seen so much activity that points to the nearness of Christ's return. So many prophecy-related events are in the late stages of development that I strongly believe we are the generation that will soon see the dawn of the Kingdom Age.
The proximity of end times has failed to cause an upswing in interest on the part of most Christians. Quite frankly, the advancement of prophecy has had the opposite effect on the Church. Most believers are totally apathetic about how close we get to the tribulation hour.
Overfamiliarity appears to be one of the many reasons for the lack of vigilance. Many key prophetic indicators are reported so frequently by the media that they've lost their luster. When they were breaking news years ago, everyone was excited about their connection to prophecy. As time dragged on, people's interest in them faded, even as they continue to edge closer to the point of reaching fulfillment.
The formation and activity of the European Union is a good example of how major prophetic events can become overlooked. When Europe's leaders first came up with the idea of integrating their economies in the 1950s, prophecy watchers were ecstatic about the move towards realization of the Revived Roman Empire. Half a century later, we have a union that is fully evolved and constantly in the news.
The Death Of Date Setting
History is full of people who have attempted to predict a date for the end of the world. The Date Setters Diary was one of the original pages added to Rapture Ready. The hands of time have proven most of these soothsayers to be false prophets.
Because of the explosion in communication, the last 200 years have been the zenith for date settings. So many predictions were made during the 20th century, I only bothered to list the major ones. Every time I turned around, someone was listing a new reason a forthcoming date was going to herald the advent of Christ.
Starting right after the arrival of the year 2000, I noticed a steady decline in the frequency of date settings. Lately, the numbers have almost completely dried up.
There doesn't seem to be any logical explanation for this drought in date settings. The same math that worked in the 20th century should work equally well in the 21st century. The internet's ability to disseminate vast quantities of information at a low cost only deepens the mystery.
Because Satan is the father of lies, all false end-time predictions bear his signature. It would appear that the collapse of the trend of date settings has a strong connection a change in the devil's strategy. Before, Satan used forecasts of the Lord's return to create confusion. Now that we are approaching the end of the age, he is trying to prevent people from being mindful that time is running out.
Thinking About "Think Not"
The pre-tribulation rapture is the key to unlocking the timing of Bible prophecy. Once the Lord Jesus comes for the Church, the way will be cleared for the devil to set up his final rebellion. Unfortunately, the Bible says is it not possible for us to know exactly when the rapture will take place.
In the Book of Matthew, Jesus told His disciples again and again that they would not know the hour of His return. The Lord was so insistent about getting this point across, He repeated himself four times in the space of a few verses. He also included a story about the 10 virgins to illustrate the point of the surprise rapture.
"But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only" (Mat. 24:36).
"Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come" (Mat. 24:42).
"Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh" (Mat. 24:44).
"Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh" (Mat. 25:13).
I think it is very significant that Jesus frequently pointed to the "think not" hour as being the time of His return. The slumbering state that we find the Church in today is a strong indication that this prophecy is in the process of being fulfilled. I would rank it far above the more general prophecies like "knowledge shall increase" (Dan 12:4) or "earthquakes in divers places" (Mark 13:8).
Jesus said He would intentionally choose a timeframe when Christians are not expecting His return. As a result, the most unlikely time for His return becomes, actually, the most likely time for the rapture. Because we have an assurance from the Lord that this event will take place during a time when the faithful are least expecting Him, we have a contrary way to judge the rapture's nearness.
We are clearly living in the "Think-Not" generation. If the Lord were to come today, He would find a Church very cozy with a sinful world. Because we have no moral watchdogs anymore, it is difficult to measure the depravity of our society. Whenever I try to gauge levels of morality, I have to think how people from other generations would react to situations.
In his letter to the Thessalonians, Paul indicates that the act of being caught off guard by the rapture is purely optional. He wrote, "But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief" (1 Thes. 5:4). By remaining forever alert, we can escape being found asleep when our Master finally returns.
Setting Your Priorities
I once read a good illustration about how we need to set priorities. A college professor set a large jar on his desk in front his class. He took handfuls of big rocks and began filling the jar. When they reached the very top, he asked the class if the jar was full. The class responded “yes.” The professor then took some smaller pebbles and started pouring the pebbles into the jar. The pebbles fell in between the much larger rocks. When the jar was filled to the top with the pebbles, he again asked the class if the jar was full. The class caught on quickly. “No,” they said. And the professor then began to take some sand and pour it into the jar, filling the jar to the top.
He then asked the class, “What do you think I was teaching you by this demonstration?” The class replied, “That there is always room for more.” “No,” the professor responded. “What I am trying to teach you is that you have to put your biggest things in first or there won't be room for them later on. You can squeeze your smaller things around your bigger things, but you can't squeeze your bigger things around your smaller things. There's always room for the smaller things in life, but not always room for the bigger things if you've already put the smaller things in first.”
Because we have a limited amount of time to accomplish things in this life, we need to make sure we have our priorities set on doing what we can for the Kingdom of God. Instead of being focused on the rock of Jesus Christ, most people are concerned with the sand of earthly desires.
Over the years, I've met dozens of men and women who specialize in end-time commentary. It always amazes me that many of these folks, who have made prophecy their vocation, are so often motivated by carnal values. In their writings they claim to be focused on heaven, but in practice their priorities tend to center only on things that offer personal gain.
I've always been a big advocate of getting information onto the web. Several times I've gotten "Are you crazy?" looks from well-known authors after I have told them that they should freely post some of their unpublished or out-of-print materials on a website. Many of my colleagues in the field of prophecy are not shy about indicating that money is their primary motive.
The average Christian also has difficulty when it comes to maintaining a focus on Kingdom of God. A believer may say "Amen" to a statement affirming the soon return of Christ, but in his daily life, he'll make long-term plans and think nothing of the possibility that the return of Christ might suddenly interrupt his life.
A big obstacle preventing Christians from being productive in their spiritual lives is the idea that Jesus only offers praise to saints who are ushered into His presence. The Bible indicates that judgment is just as much for the believer as they are the for the lost. Of course, the saved person will be in a far better situation than someone who rejected Christ's gift of salvation, but still, every saint will have to give an account of his life.
”But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment” (Matthew 12:36).
“When I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; and thou givest him not warning, nor speakest to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life; the same wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand” (Ezekiel 3:18).
“And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming. If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him” ( I John 2:28-29).
Because the rapture is a one-time event, it is critical that people be ready for it ahead of time. If you miss an elevator in a building or a flight at an airport, there is always another one you can catch. We have all the signs and warnings to help us decide to be ready. In the end, is up to us to make that important choice.
"But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness" (2 Pet. 3:10-11).
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
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TEXASGRANDMA
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http://rapturenews.com/therapture.htm
http://www.everlastinglifeministries.com/rapture/pre_trib.asp
http://www.tribulationforces.com/tfcdr/whypretrib.shtml
http://www.gospeloutreach.net/pre-trib2.html
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I believe the devil is causing people to doubt the pre-trib for several reasons.
1. It gives people on the fence a sense that they can wait until the trib to get saved.
2. It puts fear in Christians hearts so that instead of focusing on living for God now, they become fear ful of what they think will come.
3. It divides the Church and takes people off what is really important wittnessing to the lost.
I believe with all my heart that if the Church was intended on going through the tribulation, Paul would have given us intruction on how to do that. But the Bible points to the Christian looking for the blessed hope. No where in the Bible does it teach Christians how to withstand the tribulation. The Bible is filled with many teaching on how to live a Christian life. God would not have left us unprepared if it was God's plan for us to endear the tribulation. Instead God tells us to look for our blessed hope, be ever watching for the return of Jesus. This is no mistake on God's part. A Christian is to be ready for the rapture. That is all the instruction we need. We have no need to fear because God never intended for His wrath to be poured out on the Church. His wrath is for those who rejected His Son. I talked to someone last night, who's children are not saved about how we need to pray for the lost because Jesus is coming soon. She is saved. Her attitude was like we have plenty of time and she wasn't worried about it. It is this attitude that will leave those we love behind after the rapture. The Bible says that in the last days people will fall away. I think even some Christians that are truly saved will began to doubt and stop praying for their lost loved ones. Though they are saved and will be raptured, they will have to bear the pain of seeing their loved ones left behind. If the Church is not ready and watching how will the Church stressed the need for getting right with God to the lost before it is too late? Those who insist that Jesus is coming after the tribulation are giving those who are putting off gettting saved, a false secuity.
Shame on all of us and me for not praying harder and doing all we can to reach our loved ones and friends before it is too late. God help us to have the fierece watchfulness of Paul! Paul was looking for the blessed hope!
betty
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
http://www.indieheaven.com/artists/mm (son-in-law)http://www.myspace.com/mireles
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LaurieFL
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I was also raised to believe in a pre-Trib rapture. Since returning to Christ I have been delving deep into Bible study more independently than ever before, and I have come to the following conclusions.
1. I do not see any clear and solid evidence, Biblically, for a pre-trib rapture. However, I also do not see any clear evidence that there is no such thing.
2. We are told to pray that we will be counted worthy to escape the end time trials, so I pray ![[Smile]](smile.gif) We are also told that God's people are not appointed unto wrath (His wrath).
3. We are told to watch the signs of the times and to look forward to the return of our Lord, which I also do.
4. I am told that I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me, so I hold fast to that promise.
Maranatha. Come quickly Lord Jesus. But also, I pray that you are merciful and tarry until more souls come to You. Please work in the hearts of the lost and send us out as workers, so that the harvest may be plentiful and soon.
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TEXASGRANDMA
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Of course that is your right. But, I believe in the Pre-Trib rapture.
betty
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
http://www.indieheaven.com/artists/mm (son-in-law)http://www.myspace.com/mireles
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chris777
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I used to when I heard people talking about it, but when I started reading the bible myself, it just don't see it lining up with Gods word.
too many inconsistencies, the only way I can see it working is by Twisting and omitting verses.
I know Christ is coming back, But I can't find where the bible supposedly seperates his return into 2 seperate events, a "secret" rapture, and the second coming.
Then their are verses like 2 thess 2
where it says not to worry that christ has already come, but that he has not until the man of sin stands reveald claiming that he is god.
plus their are so many old testament examples of gods people being in the fire , both figuratively and literally (Daniel)
psalm 91 also comes to mind where 10000 will fall beside you, but you wont be harmed.
reminds me of how God protected the israelites during the judgement of egypt.
egypt was decimated, yet goshen was pristine.
I am deeply concerned that this IS a teaching of men, to itching ears, and not the truth with love.
I was wondering if anyone had scriptural evidence, that doesn't pick and choose, because i personally can't find it, and have found far more that lead me to think it is a doctrine of men, and not of the scriptures, like where satan tempted jesus to cast himself from the temple.
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