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Author
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Topic: IRS Restricts Prayer in Churches
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helpforhomeschoolers
Advanced Member
Member # 15
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posted
ha ha ha; it sounds like your house could have been our pastor's house! His house is kind of an open door or more accurately swinging door all the time anyway. I really do not know how his wife can stand it; but she doesn't seem to mind. Sometimes in the winter it is a hoot over there little tottler grandkids, teens, deer, elders.....There is always a house full of people from our congregation, and even more kids because he has teens at home and the ones at college are always bringing someone home with them when they come. Sometimes depending on how well hunting season went and how busy tourist season was and the number of orphans they have taken in you can find people out in the yard, over on the porch, inside the house...all with bottles in hand and a baby deer on the lap.
On a more serious note, I agree with you 100% about this nation. I BELIEVE judgement is coming in the very same form it came to the Northen Kingdom and eventually to Judah. I pray that I hear the long steady blast of the shofar before that day comes; still, not my will but HIS be done.
And no I do not enjoy TV or secular movies.
He he he... we dont even have TV, there is no signal where I live, we cant get a single channel and I like it that way. I refuse to spend money on satalite.
Hal and I travel a lot, so I catch the weather channel when we are in a hotel. He watches the news. He is a news junky. If it were not for the news I read here or on the computer, I would not even know what is going on in the world. I do like to know what is going on in the world, but I am glad not to have local news like when I lived in FL, it was all about the enemies works murdering and robbery, rape, mayhem, and glorifying that with my time bothers me.
My family still likes movies too much more than I think is ok, but God is working on them. I know I cant change them GOD has to change their hearts and his is doing that.
They rent DVD's, but even the nature of those has changed so dramatically for the good over the recent years.
Desi is the one that amazes me; she is only 15, but God has really moved in and captured her heart. She is our resident evangelist. She witnesses all the time and she thinks nothing about walking up to a complete stranger and asking them if they know Jesus. She has very good judgement about what to put in front of her eyes and in her ears and it is something GOD himself has placed there.
Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002
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becauseHElives
Advanced Member
Member # 87
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posted
Hey Linda, thank's
When my girls were little we used to raise baby deer, on cold nights they would feed them in the kitchen with a bottle, many times end up in their bedroom to sleep. Sometimes they would get lose and we would spend the better part of the night
2-3 in the morning looking for one of the babies,then I would have to go to work.
But the memories I have with the girls I would not take anything for.
Prayer from a repentant Church is all that will save this Nation.
As long as the Church is fornicating with the world, producing Hagars in the Church. This Nation has no future except the sure coming day of judgement of being destroyed.
America has already been judged, homosexuality fluanting itself in the street and everywhere else is that judgement.
Rom 1:24-32 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
And even as they did not like to retain God in [their] knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them. (do you enjoying television and movies of this world)
This is a description of our Nation,
Even sadder this is a description of the Church, except for a very small remnant.
As you read Romans I pray the Father open your eyes and ears.
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
Posts: 4578 | From: Southeast Texas | Registered: Jun 2002
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helpforhomeschoolers
Advanced Member
Member # 15
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posted
Hey Dale: Here is a friendly comment come your way in the form of a sisterly hug. ![[hug]](graemlins/hug.gif) and a holy kiss of charity ![[Kiss]](graemlins/Kiss.gif)
I will tell you we do support a pastor actually we support two because we attend two churches regularly.
But it pleases me to do this because both pastors are humble servants that lead Godly lives and each of them commits an enourmous amount of time (more than any full time job!)to community service,counseling troubled youth, visiting the sick and the shut in's, transporting people to dr. visits, painting houses and mowing lawns and shoveling snow for people in the church who cant do these things themselves, one of them even runs an orphanage out of his own pocket for baby deer that lose there mommies to auto accidents during the busy tourist season here. If you think that is not work taking care of GOd's creatures, you have another though coming. Do you know how much babie deer eat, and at the most uncivilized hours!
Both of these men are raising families on meger incomes and live in humble homes and both perform these services in addition to the things they do in the church such as Bible studies, youth ministries, preaching, marriage counseling, family counseling and more.
It pleases me to be able to help that they do not also have to work 40 hours a week as well. Both men came to pastor these churches at a time when there was no salary and still they dedicated their lives to this ministry while working a job as well. One of them still insists on working part time as he has 3 kids in college.
I guess that my point is this....all pastors are not the same. There are indeed Daniel's in the church who will not bow. Still, the church is indeed broken in many ways and in many places. Jesus said it would be. Only Philadephia received both no rebuke and also praise.
For me the question is not so much does the pastor receive a salary as much as it is would he still do this work if he did not. Is he a faithful steward of that which he has been given? How does he use the time he is given by the congregation's financial support. How humbly does he live. Does he lord over the congregation or does he serve them. How does the congregation support the rest of its members. Are there needs that go un-met, so that the pastor can enjoy a salary? Has the congregation been obedient to the word and remained debt free? Are they willing to operate without tax exemption rather than bow to the demands of the government which restrict their doing God's will. I believe Paul did also receive gifts of support from those of his followers who were able to support his ministry. In the days of old, God had each tribe set aside provision for the Levites. Today, people will say "there are no Levites". I am not sure that is true. I think more correctly is that we are all Levites... that is to say that we are all priests, we are a nation if you will of priests. All the inheirtance any of us have is Christ. As we are here we are to be to each other brothers in one accord. Loving and serving each other equally; carrying every man another man's burden. Our sharing or distrubution of that which God has given us for HIS purpose and glory should be to each according to the need. If my pastor has greater need because he has greater burden than I and I have greater resource than he, then I should give according to the need and not neglect the needs of the others in my congregation either. I am a not a good steward if I do any less. I see that is the way of the apostolic church.
Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002
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becauseHElives
Advanced Member
Member # 87
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posted
Aaron, I will exhort when the Lord tells me to exhort, the day in which we live has plenty of exorters, but very few who will rebuke. It is not something I enjoy. Not very many freindly comments come my way. But to live is Christ and to die is gain.
I only pray I do it with longsuffering, for HE is longsuffering with us all.
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
Posts: 4578 | From: Southeast Texas | Registered: Jun 2002
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Aaron
unregistered
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by helpforhomeschoolers:
Deb this is a very disturbing article. But not for the obvious reasons think. There are two problems here.
1. Our chruches covet their 501 C 3 status. Jesus taught his disciples to give to ceasar what was Ceasar's. Even Jesus paid taxes. We because we have asked for grace from the government and not God, have placed ourselves in bondage to the tax collector. We can end that bondage, by giving to Ceasar what is indeed Ceasars. And if we did this corporately (as in in church assemblies) across the nation, we might see a change in the church; we might see churches who chose to use the wealth they have been given by grace to operate in one accord as the apostolic church did, making sure that none of their membership had need of anything, rather than building crystal cathedrals and gymnasiaums. We might feed entire cities of homeless people rather than building huge meeting halls with state of the heart commercial kitchens in which we can warm up our pot luck dinners where we feed ourselves. Heck, we might even by the prescriptions our elderly memebers so despirately need or make sure the widow down the street has a roof over her head and groceries in her cubbard every single month!
2. The second issue or scary thing here to me is that this is a very clear picture of the extent to which our government desires to rule us. THis I would liken to the Ceasars of Rome requiring the people to worship them as gods.
![[thumbsup2]](graemlins/thumbsup2.gif)
Another thing: 501c3 status muzzles the prophets and teachers who would speak truthfully about the government and its actions. And how much more will we need to preach the truth once the anti-Christ is revealed in the world!
Bless you all,
Aaron
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SoftTouch
Advanced Member
Member # 2316
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posted
Amen Brothers and Sisters!
I knew this article greatly disturbed me (and not because of Bush). I'm sending this to my Pastor to see what his thoughts on this are.
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Psalm 119:104Through thy precepts I get understanding: therefore I hate every false way. 105Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.
Posts: 3465 | Registered: Nov 2003
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Bat Elohim
Advanced Member
Member # 3739
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posted
no body is going to tell me who or what I can pray about.
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Numbers 6:24 May ADONAI bless you and keep you. 25 May ADONAI make his face shine on you and show you his favor. 26 May ADONAI lift up his face toward you and give you peace.
Posts: 704 | From: Louisiana | Registered: Aug 2004
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helpforhomeschoolers
Advanced Member
Member # 15
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posted
Deb this is a very disturbing article. But not for the obvious reasons think. There are two problems here.
1. Our chruches covet their 501 C 3 status. Jesus taught his disciples to give to ceasar what was Ceasar's. Even Jesus paid taxes. We because we have asked for grace from the government and not God, have placed ourselves in bondage to the tax collector. We can end that bondage, by giving to Ceasar what is indeed Ceasars. And if we did this corporately (as in in church assemblies) across the nation, we might see a change in the church; we might see churches who chose to use the wealth they have been given by grace to operate in one accord as the apostolic church did, making sure that none of their membership had need of anything, rather than building crystal cathedrals and gymnasiaums. We might feed entire cities of homeless people rather than building huge meeting halls with state of the heart commercial kitchens in which we can warm up our pot luck dinners where we feed ourselves. Heck, we might even by the prescriptions our elderly memebers so despirately need or make sure the widow down the street has a roof over her head and groceries in her cubbard every single month!
2. The second issue or scary thing here to me is that this is a very clear picture of the extent to which our government desires to rule us. THis I would liken to the Ceasars of Rome requiring the people to worship them as gods.
BHL, you are right! God has given us prayer. Praise HIS infinite and glorious Mercy and wisdom; because as long as this old body has breath, they can not censor or dictate or control or even monitor the prayers I offer up to God. ANd once this old body has breath no more... well then I will speak my prayers at his feet.. TO LIVE IS CHRIST: TO DIE IS GAIN! Amen?
Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002
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Aaron
unregistered
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posted
"..if ye have not love..."
BHL, you've proven you know how to rebuke. Now, learn how to rebuke and exhort. Or do you want to see your brethren denied?
Aaron
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becauseHElives
Advanced Member
Member # 87
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posted
Mat 10:33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.
Churches, Pastor, Deacons, Elders, other leaders in the Church and just the plain Church member deny Jesus every day in their words, actions and by their non actions.
One day Jesus will also deny them,
Mar 8:34-38 And when he had called the people [unto him] with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel's, the same shall save it. For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?
Or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?
Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.
For those with ears to hear what the Spirit is saying to the Church, this is about eternal life.
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
Posts: 4578 | From: Southeast Texas | Registered: Jun 2002
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Aaron
unregistered
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by shadowmaker:
If however, this is in fact true, every Christian in the world should stand up and not take it.
Brad
Most churches chose to come under the rule of the IRS the day they accepted a 501c3 "tax-exempt" status. Stand? Yes, but also shake off the yoke that binds you.
And for these pressures from the IRS I say "Praise God!". These are "bricks without straw" mandates that bring to light the government's true feelings of Christians: the pariah of the world; a hated, rebellious bunch.
Take heart, they hated our Lord first and sought to kill Him...and yet He lives!
Aaron
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shadowmaker
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Member # 3696
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posted
Yeah right. They cant tell you who you can and cant pray for. It sounds like to me someone is just trying to stir things up. If however, this is in fact true, every Christian in the world should stand up and not take it.
Brad
Posts: 272 | Registered: Jul 2004
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becauseHElives
Advanced Member
Member # 87
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posted
It is a shame the IRS was not around in Daniel's day, oh that right they were around in Daniel's day they just had a differt name.
It is a shame though that God does not have that many Daniel's around.
You can't make a law that will stop a True believer from praying, not anywhere!
But a paid employee (pastors of most Churches), that a different subject.
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
Posts: 4578 | From: Southeast Texas | Registered: Jun 2002
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SoftTouch
Advanced Member
Member # 2316
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posted
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=41145
RS: CHURCHES CAN'T PRAY FOR BUSH VICTORY
October 28, 2004
WorldNetDaily.com reports: “In a letter of clarification requested by a traveling minister, the Internal Revenue Service has declared people gathered in tax-exempt churches can't pray for President Bush to win the election on Tuesday.
The ruling comes in response to a request by the Christian Defense Coalition, which is in the midst of a 15-day prayer tour through Ohio and Pennsylvania. The Rev. Patrick J. Mahoney, director of the organization, had planned to lead in prayer for a Bush victory during evening services in each town. Though he had hoped to hold the services in churches, Mahoney says he has used American Legion halls, hotels and other venues pending a clarification from the IRS.
The American Center for Law and Justice wrote the letter to the IRS on behalf of the Mahoney's group, explaining that the pastor planned to ‘offer prayer during the evening services in the churches he visits that God grants President Bush four more years as president and that Senator Kerry does not become president.’
‘This is rank censorship,’ Mahoney told WND. ‘If churches felt compelled to pray for Senator Kerry, they should be able to do that, too.
‘Now we have the IRS not only limiting what can said behind a pulpit in terms of electioneering, but churches aren't even allowed to pray the dictates of their consciences.’
Mahoney said he would consider legal action against the IRS, saying churches that had considered hosting the tour were unable to do so. He also said he considers his First Amendment rights to have been violated…”
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Psalm 119:104Through thy precepts I get understanding: therefore I hate every false way. 105Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.
Posts: 3465 | Registered: Nov 2003
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