|
Author
|
Topic: Need Help Please
|
Ripp
unregistered
|
posted
Thanks Eagle.
A couple questions for you.
quote:
Again, NO where in the Bible is the word "imminent" used. The doctrine of imminency is a manmade supposition.
Yes but He tells us to be ready because we do not know the time he will come back. All the signs we have been given are happening now so He can come at any time.
quote:
Yes we are to watch for the signs of His coming at all times. If there are signs, then that means that the believer can be ready, even if we do NOT know when exactly.
But if we are to have a mid-trib rapture, we WOULD know when He was coming back because at the beginning of the tribulation the 7 year peace treaty is signed with Israel. So, after 3 1/2 years He would be coming. Therefore, we WOULD know the day when He was coming.
I really don't know how to conclude this hehe. I realize there are different views on the rapture and it's kind of like politics, it's hard to change someones view or see it their way. But, we can look foward to His coming either way. And I'm sure we can at least agree that the signs are there. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Come Lord Jesus!
![[1zhelp]](graemlins/1zhelp.gif) ![[clap2]](graemlins/clap2.gif) ![[dance]](graemlins/dance1.gif) ![[Cross]](graemlins/cross.gif)
IP: Logged | 
|
|
WhiteEagle
Advanced Member
Member # 3728
|
posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ripp:
.
[QUOTE] The Granddaddy Of Proofs
The pretribulation rapture is the only view that allows for the rapture to be imminent in its timing. All the other views require a number of prophetic occurrences to take place before the rapture can be declared imminent. To be looking for the imminent return of Christ, you have to believe in a pre-trib rapture.
Again, NO where in the Bible is the word "imminent" used. The doctrine of imminency is a manmade supposition.
The word "quickly" is used. Behold I come quickly.
In Matthew 24 there is the account of the disciples asking Jesus three questions.
Matt 24:1-3 "Jesus came out of the temple and was going away when his disciples came up to point out the temple building to Him. And he answered and said to them, "Do you not see all these things? Truly I say to you, not one stone here shall be left upon another, which shall not be torn down." And as he was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately saying, " Tell us when will these things be? and what will be the sign of your coming, and the end of the age?
Here we have 3 separate issues or questions, I highlighted them alternately bold and italiced.
1st question when will the temple be torn down?
Matthew 24:15-20 "therefore when you see the Abomination of Desolation which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place, then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains; let him who is on the housetop not go down to get the things out that are in his house; and let him who is in the field not turn back to get his cloak. but woe to those who are with child and to those who nurse babes in those days! But pray that your flight may not be in winter or on a Sabbath."
Jesus prophecied the destruction of the Temple by the Romans in 70AD
2nd question: what will be the signs of your coming?
Matthew 24:21-31
For then there will be a great tribulation such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever shall.
And unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days shall be cut short.
Then if anyone says to you, "behold here is the Christ or there He is, do not believe him.
For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect.
Behold I have told you in advance.
If therefore they say to you, Behold he is in the wilderness, do not go forth, or behold He is in the inner rooms, do not believe them.
For just as the lightning comes from the east and flashes even to the west, so shall the coming of the Son of Man be.
Wherever the corpse is, there the vultures will gather.
But IMMEDIATELY after the tribulation of those days, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give it's light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken,
then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory.
And He will send forth his angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.
3rd question:
And the time of the end?
Matthew24:4-14
Jesus said, see that no one deceives you, for many will come in My name saying I am the Christ and will mislead many.
And you will be hearing of wars and rumors of wars; see that you are not frightened, for these things must take place, but that is not yet the end.
For nation will rise against nation and kingdom against kingdom and in various places there will be famines and earthquakes.
But these things are merely the beginning of birth pangs.
Then they will deliver you to tribulation and will kill you, and you will be hated by all the nations on account of My name.
At that time, many shall fall away and will deliver up one another and hate one another.
And many false prophets will arise and mislead many.
And because lawlessness is increased, most people's love will grow cold.
But the one who endures to the end, he shall be saved.
And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world for a witness to all the nations, and thenthe end shall come.
quote:
Jesus repeatedly said that His return for the Church would be a surprise. The Lord even went beyond that by saying He would return “as a thief” when believers generally won't be expecting Him to come for them.
"But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only" (Matthew 24:36).
"Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up. Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh. Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season? Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing" (Matthew 24:42-46 KJV).
"Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh" (Matthew 25:13).
"And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power" (Acts 1:7).
Yes we are to watch for the signs of His coming at all times. If there are signs, then that means that the believer can be ready, even if we do NOT know when exactly.
Jesus is warning us to BE READY as it's human to get complacent and lazy. His signs are vague until He is coming.
Jesus is also preparing us for the tribulation, as many will lose hope and not expect Him to come due to having to go through the tribulation.
I read Jesus' words that the elect will be gathered AFTER the tribulation. I think Jesus warns us so hard to be ready and alert because He knows our human nature. It will be like a "thief" to those who are looking for the signs of the times.
quote:
Because we have no way to refute the fact that we will not know the timing of our Lord's return, the tribulation is a barrier to the rapture. No wonder the late John Walvoord called imminency "the heart of Pretribulationism."
This type of “any-moment” language doesn't fit a post-trib rapture. If Jesus were prevented from coming until after the battle of Magog, the rise of Antichrist, and the Mark of the Beast, we would have no need to watch for Him before the tribulation.
If the Church were required to go through the seven-year tribulation, you would expect the New Testament writers to have warned us to be prepared for trying times. On the contrary, the New Testament writers repeatedly tell the Church to be comforted by the "coming of the Lord" (1 Thes 4:18). The word "comfort" alone strongly implies the rapture will take place before the tribulation. [/QB]
I think the New Testament writers DO warn us about trying times quite often.
I think the comfort arises as the HOPE in Christ's redemption and knowing that whatever we have to go through on earth even to death, we will be resurrected with Christ.
NOthing can separate us from the Love of Christ.
When Stephen was being stoned to death, he was given grace to forgive his executioners and he saw the heaven open up and saw Christ.
Posts: 1392 | From: Maine | Registered: Aug 2004
| IP: Logged |
|
|
WhiteEagle
Advanced Member
Member # 3728
|
posted
Good points, Ripp.
I'll try to address them in the morning with scriptures to back up my points.
Scripture does always warn us to watch and be ready. The term "immimency" is never used, in the Bible, that I know of.
I can think of verses that say, " EVEN SO, come quickly Lord Jesus...."
What does the "Even so" mean?
Why does Paul warn in Thessolonians for them to not be deceived, that the Lord will not come for the church until that lawless one is revealed, and the apostasy must come first? Why does Jesus himself outline the details of his coming to gather the elect as after the tribulation?
Yes we are to watch, and the comfort is knowing that Jesus will come...never early...never late...but right on His time...when the darkness seems to be the darkest and the evil the most vile...His light will come... that's what we have to be very comforted about.
Jesus says the days of the Tribulation will be cut short for the elect's sake, or no flesh would be saved. So we don't know the exact time the Tribulation will last, or if we will be going before it ends completely. Paul warns that even the very elect could be deceived , so that is why we must be watchful.
Posts: 1392 | From: Maine | Registered: Aug 2004
| IP: Logged |
|
|
Ripp
unregistered
|
posted
Thanks for posting that info. WhiteEagle. I still come back to the imminency though. I'll post this and see what you think.
quote:
The Granddaddy Of Proofs
The pretribulation rapture is the only view that allows for the rapture to be imminent in its timing. All the other views require a number of prophetic occurrences to take place before the rapture can be declared imminent. To be looking for the imminent return of Christ, you have to believe in a pre-trib rapture.
Jesus repeatedly said that His return for the Church would be a surprise. The Lord even went beyond that by saying He would return “as a thief” when believers generally won't be expecting Him to come for them.
"But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only" (Matthew 24:36).
"Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up. Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh. Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season? Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing" (Matthew 24:42-46 KJV).
"Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh" (Matthew 25:13).
"And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power" (Acts 1:7).
Because we have no way to refute the fact that we will not know the timing of our Lord's return, the tribulation is a barrier to the rapture. No wonder the late John Walvoord called imminency "the heart of Pretribulationism."
This type of “any-moment” language doesn't fit a post-trib rapture. If Jesus were prevented from coming until after the battle of Magog, the rise of Antichrist, and the Mark of the Beast, we would have no need to watch for Him before the tribulation.
If the Church were required to go through the seven-year tribulation, you would expect the New Testament writers to have warned us to be prepared for trying times. On the contrary, the New Testament writers repeatedly tell the Church to be comforted by the "coming of the Lord" (1 Thes 4:18). The word "comfort" alone strongly implies the rapture will take place before the tribulation.
Some anti-imminency folks try to solve the problem they have with the rapture's any-moment occurrence by redefining it as merely indicating that Christ will return soon. The speed of Christ's advent is not the issue. If an event is required to take place before the Lord can return, there is no need to remain watchful.
If a person should make it through the tribulation until the point when the mid-trib, pre-wrath, and post-trib folks expect the rapture to occur, it would then become possible for the rapture to be classified as “imminent.” However, once you solve the problem of imminency, you create another one regarding the restrictions against knowing the timing of the rapture.
Because the duration of the tribulation is already known, post-tribbers have the hardest time dealing with the rapture's timing. Some of them have tried to suggest that believers who make it through the tribulation will lazily lose track of the nearness of Christ's second coming.
If a Christian has been lucky enough to survive a host of apocalyptic calamities and elude the Antichrist's secret police for at least 3 1/2 years, I cannot imagine that he would be oblivious to the nearness of the Lord's return at the 7-year mark. If I were reduced to the point of having to hide in a forest and forage through dead tree bark to find beetles and grubs to sustain myself, I'm certain my every thought would be focused on the Lord's return.
IP: Logged |
|
|
WhiteEagle
Advanced Member
Member # 3728
|
posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ripp:
It was my understanding that the Church had to be taken out of the world before the antichrist could have rule. I don't remember the passage, maybe someone can help me. But if that's true, how can the rapture be after the antichrist takes rule?
Matthew 24:29-31
But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken, and then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth shall mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. And He will send forth His angles with a great trumpet and they will "gather together"(Rapture) HIS ELECT from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other."
Ripp, if you read all of Matthew chapter 24 carefully, one must see that the Church does go through the Tribulation or at least most of it.
quote:
Rev.19 talks about the marriage supper of the Lamb. vs.7 "Let us rejoice and be glad and give glory to HIm, for the marriage of the Lamb has come and his bride has made herself ready."
quote:
Very interesting verse that I had not seen before. This would seem to suggest a mid-trib Rapture. However, like my question before, I thought the antichrist could not take reign until the Spirit was taken out of the world first.
Think about your statement for a few minutes. Think about Hitler, The Roman Empire's persecution of Christians, All the world's previous wars and terrible suffering that is occurring now and has occurred before with the Holy Spirit in the World as you say. After I read Fox's Book of Martyrs I decided that we Christians of 2004 aren't going to be pulled out.
I feel that Jesus' statements, Paul's statements back me up.
The Holy Spirit was around before the physical Jesus was born on earth. David writes about God's Holy spirit. Saul lost God's Holy Spirit when he sinned in disobedience. The difference was that before Christ and Pentecost, the Holy Spirit didn't fall on all believers like we have with the Church.
The Holy Spirit will be available to all who call on Jesus even during the tribulation.
I think that in 2 Thess 2:6-8 when it says,"and you know what restrains him now, so that in his time he may be revealed. For the mystery of lawlessness is ALREADY at work; only he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way."
Many use this verse to say it means the Holy Spirit is the restrainer and seem to base pre-trib doctrines on this one verse. If you read 2 Thess. 2:1-5 it says quite the oppposite.
So what or who is the Restrainer?
It can't be God Almighty, because He's ever present as is the Holy Spirit. It can't be the Church because we don't restrain anything. We are called to overcome, not restrain.
vs.8... "and then that lawless one will be revealed.....vs9...that is, the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders."
2 Corinthians 11:14 "...For Satan disguises himself as an angel of light."
Luke10:18 "And Jesus said to them, after they came to Him rejoicing that they had authority over demons: "I was watching Satan fall from heaven like lightning." I wonder if Jesus was smiling when He told them that"
I'm not sure who the Restrainer is. Is it Christ himself and He will open the Seal when the time comes? If so, it's in Christ's authority to open the seals for the antichrist to come. The antichrist also is restrained as he won't have power until Satan himself comes on the earth manifest as an angel of light.
I can add more later, I should do some housework:)
Posts: 1392 | From: Maine | Registered: Aug 2004
| IP: Logged |
|
|
Ripp
unregistered
|
posted
Thanks for the responses guys. I still have a few questions. I am still trying to figure out the end times processes.
WhiteEagle wrote:
quote:
Rev.13:7-8 "And it was given to him(the beast) to make war with the saints, and to overcome them; and authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation was given to him. And all who dwell on the earth will worship him,(everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slain)."
It was my understanding that the Church had to be taken out of the world before the antichrist could have rule. I don't remember the passage, maybe someone can help me. But if that's true, how can the rapture be after the antichrist takes rule?
quote:
Rev.19 talks about the marriage supper of the Lamb. vs.7 "Let us rejoice and be glad and give glory to HIm, for the marriage of the Lamb has come and his bride has made herself ready."
Very interesting verse that I had not seen before. This would seem to suggest a mid-trib Rapture. However, like my question before, I thought the antichrist could not take reign until the Spirit was taken out of the world first.
I really am trying to understand the different views better so please don't take this as an attack. I am still trying to understand the timeline in my own head. I have always believed in pre-trib. I have read many books and seen programs that suggest this but I am open for debate on this.
quote:
Rev.13:7-8 "And it was given to him(the beast) to make war with the saints, and to overcome them; and authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation was given to him. And all who dwell on the earth will worship him,(everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slain)."
I understand what this COULD mean. But, since the peace treaty with Israel begins the 7 year tribulation, wouldn't there by widespread uprising on behalf of the church when the treaty was signed? And wouldn't people be crying out that that person was the antichrist? It is hard for me to believe that God would allow us steadfast believers to go through such a horrible time. And since we do not know the time when Jesus comes back to Rapture us, wouldn't we know when He was coming back when the treaty was signed? Why would Jesus tell us to be ready and watch for His return if we could just wait for the treaty to be signed?
quote:
I think we are already in that day of mass outpouring, it's been since the day of Pentecost.
He suggested that it will be a huge supernatural outpouring before the Rapture. Something like never seen before. So, I don't know. I believe that will happen in the trib.
HisGrace said:
quote:
God will never forsake his love from mankind. They will always be given a chance to come to him.
I pray to God you are right. If the Spirit IS taken out completely at the Rapture, that would be horrible for everyone going through the trib. I belive you are right, but since this is what he belived, I thought I would get more input. I believe God loves us too much to barely give a chance for those in the trib.
Thanks again guys, more input would be great if you have time. I really do appreciate it. ![[Bible]](graemlins/bible.gif)
IP: Logged |
|
|
HisGrace
unregistered
|
posted
I heard recently that it is a misconception that the Holy Spirit will be taken out of the earth at the time of the Rapture, because many will be saved during the tribulation.
That is why the 144,000 are going to be raised up in an effort to convert the remnant of Israel.
When the third angel shouts from the skies, warning of the mark of the beast (which happens during the tribulation), Rev. 14:12 says -
Let this encourage God's holy people to endure persecution patiently and remain firm to the end, obeying his commands and trusting in Jesus.
God will never forsake his love from mankind. They will always be given a chance to come to him. I also have heard that there will be a greater outpouring of the Holy Spirit during the period just before the Rapture.
IP: Logged |
|
|
WhiteEagle
Advanced Member
Member # 3728
|
posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ripp:
He also claims that there will be a mass outpouring of the Spirit before the Rapture which will save a LOT of people. I was under the impression that AFTER the Rapture is when this will occur because of the distress and the amazement of the Rapture bringing people to God.
In Joel 2:23 "So rejoice O sons of Zion, and be glad in the Lord your God. For He has given you the early rain for you vindication. And He has poured down for you the rain, the early and latter] rainas before."
I think we are already in that day of mass outpouring, it's been since the day of Pentecost.
Hosea 6:3 "So let us know, let us press on to know the Lord. His going forth is as certain as the dawn. And He will come to us like the rain, like the spring rain watering the earth."
After the Rapture, It seems that the Jewish People will have seen Christ coming in the clouds for our Rapture and they will mourn over Him and realize that Jesus is the Christ. They will have the 144,000 and the 2 witnesses for the Jewish people.
Gentiles had their chance mostly while the Church was here, and will have strong delusion, and most will not believe.
Israel will be God's own after the Rapture and that's why the Beast and the people of the world will attack Israel, and Christ will come with us and his angels to defeat them. Israel will have a great awakening after the Rapture.
Posts: 1392 | From: Maine | Registered: Aug 2004
| IP: Logged |
|
|
WhiteEagle
Advanced Member
Member # 3728
|
posted
Ripp,
I believe that after the Rapture... (which will be after the Beast is revealed and after he does the abomination thing)... because of what Jesus says in Matthew 24. Read it carefully. I won't write it out now.
Also in 2 Thess.2:1-3vs1: ...with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and our gathering together(rapture) to Him... vs.3 "Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed,(the son of destruction).
2 Thess.2:11,12...For this reason(see verse 10)God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they might believe what is false. In order that they might be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness."
In Revelation 12:11 says: "And they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of the their testimony, and they did not love their lives unto death."
Rev.13:7-8 "And it was given to him(the beast) to make war with the saints, and to overcome them; and authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation was given to him. And all who dwell on the earth will worship him,(everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slain)."
Rev.19 talks about the marriage supper of the Lamb. vs.7 "Let us rejoice and be glad and give glory to HIm, for the marriage of the Lamb has come and his bride has made herself ready."
How did she get ready?
vs 8 "And it was given to her to clothe herself in fine linen, bright and clean; for the fine linen is the "righteous acts of the saints."
When our Bridegroom comes to the supper He is ready for battle:
vs 11-17 "And I saw heaven opened; and behold a white horse and He who sat upon it is called Faithful and True; and in righteousness He judges and wages war.
12. " His eyes are a flame of fire and upon His head are many diadems; and He has a name written upon Him which no one knows except Himself.
13. "And He is clothed with a robe dipped in blood; and His name is called the Word of God."
14."And the armies which are in heaven, clothed in fine linen white and clean were following Him on white horses."
15. "And from His mouth comes a sharp sword, so that with it He many smite the nations; and He will rule them with a rod of iron, and He treads the wine press of the fierce wrath of God, the Almighty."
16. "And on His robe and on His thigh He has a name written,King of Kings, and Lord of Lords."
17. " and I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried out with a loud voice, saying to all the birds which fly in midheaven. "come, assemble for the great supper of God."
Rev 20:4 ....."And I saw thrones, and they that sat upon them, and judgement was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of the testimony of Jesus and because of the Word of God and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image; and had not received the mark upon their forehead and upon their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.."
Going back to Rev. 7:13-14 "...These who are clothed in white robes, who are they, and where have they come from?" ...And he said to me, These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."
(That verse above is after the 6th seal)
I believe that all these verses refer to the Church. The Church will go through Tribulation because of the Beast, but not God's wrath which will come after we are united with Christ for the marriage supper(battle of battles).
Then during the Trumpet Judgements it says in Rev. 9:20-21 "And the rest of mankind who were not killed by these plagues, did not repent....and they did not repent of their murders nor their sorceries nor their immorality nor their thefts."
Also during the Trumpet Judgements in Chap.14:12-13. Here is the perseverance of the saints who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus. And I heard a voice from heaven saying, "Write, blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on!" Yes says the Spirit, that they may rest from their labors, for their deeds will follow them."
Lastly: 1 Corinthians 6:2,3 "Do you not know that the saints will judge the world?....Do you not know that we shall judge angels? How much more matters in this life."
Most of mankind will continue to reject Christ after the Rapture due to the deluding influence, but the Holy Spirit seems to still be present after the Rapture as you see in Rev.14 quoted above. Will those who were too young be able to hear the truth of God? Will those who never heard of Christ before the Rapture have a chance?
Yes! But it appears that the majority of those left behind will not repent, inspite of the plagues before the Bowls of God's Wrath are poured out. The Jews have the 144,000 and the 2 witnesses, their witness may convert many of the Jews. The time of the Gentiles will be over, after the Rapture.
Ripp, I think the church will be present for much of what is prophesied in Revelation. We are the Saints, just as the Corinthians were called Saints. Revelation refers to the Saints many times during the times of the Beast's era on earth.
Sorry this is so long.. I hope It makes sense to you. (even if you don't agree,) I tried to make it clear enough to follow my reasoning based on the scriptures.
Posts: 1392 | From: Maine | Registered: Aug 2004
| IP: Logged |
|
|
Ripp
unregistered
|
posted
I had a discussion tonight with a co-worker on end times. From what I understand, after the Rapture the Holy Spirit will be taken out with the church. I was under the impression that new believers would be able to recieve the Spirit in the Tribulation by accepting Jesus. He claims that when the Spirit is taken out at the Rapture, it is gone for good and the only way to be saved is through death and not accepting the mark of the beast.
He also claims that there will be a mass outpouring of the Spirit before the Rapture which will save a LOT of people. I was under the impression that AFTER the Rapture is when this will occur because of the distress and the amazement of the Rapture bringing people to God.
Help please.
IP: Logged |
|
|
|
Printer-friendly view of this topic
