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Topic: Koko's Toothache
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Niedziejkore
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posted
I started this thread and I don't see any problem with the way it's going. I think this is pretty entertaining.
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Worker bees can leave
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Posts: 346 | From: Wisconsin | Registered: Feb 2004
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Favor Minded
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Thanks S&P -
Maybe I should start a new thread, Animals in Heaven instead...
FM
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SciptureAndPrayers
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FM,
Thanks for your explanation. I didn't actually have anyone in my sights with either my posts on this thread or the edit in the other thread, unfortunately circumstances did leave things a little ambiguous. Sorry about that. The main reason I did the edit was because I had regretted recommending that people read this thread after I saw the direction it was taking, for the reasons listed in my last two posts.
As a rule I try to avoid attacking the individual members personally (though I've failed occasionally I guess), but I do have a hard time holding back with regard to subject matter that I feel is just plain wrong or inappropriate. I'm grateful for the changes the Lord has made in me already, but we both agree that He's not done yet.
God bless you all.
![[wave3]](graemlins/18.gif)
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In Christ's love. Amen.
Posts: 345 | From: Rochester NY | Registered: Jul 2004
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Favor Minded
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Hello -
NONE if this thread / these conversations had anything evenly remotely pertaining to evolution...
Nothing about evolution is being discussed at all....
FM
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whitesands777
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posted
For those who would like to read or listen to sound logic that is based on the truth of creation that easily defeats the idea of evolution check out this website...
www.answersingenesis.com
Posts: 501 | Registered: May 2004
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Scriptureandprayer -
Okay -
I guess I took it that you were directing it at me rather than the other post.
I udnerstand your point completely and that is why I chose, rather than to pursue the what if scenario of a 2 yr old vs. a monkey, I just went with the animals in Heaven scriptures.
Sorry if I came at you - But when I saw you write >>>>EDITED - I TAKE IT BACK >>>>>
It seemed like that was directed at me - And I said nothing about 2 year olds and Gorillas, so I figured the I TAKE IT BACK was directed at me...
FM
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Endoxos
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The way I see it lies in Genesis... Who, out of ALL the creations of earth, actually ATE from the forbidden fruit? Instead of "Curiousity killed the cat", it ought to be "Curiousity killed mankind". The cat certainly didn't eat the fruit, or else we'd have whole cities of steel and stone ruled by cats, and we'd be serving *them*... oh wait. No. NOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!! ^_~ I mean "Cities built by cats" ^_^
If the animals ate from the forbidden tree, they too would understand good and evil, and be able to make the choice "repent, worship God and accept Jesus' sacrifice, or perish from *their* sins"... but this choice is not offered... in fact, they don't understand "right" and "wrong" ("I have hurt to Mom, so I won't play with the thumbtacks on the floor again, because I love her" [true repentance]), only "positive outcome" and "negative outcome" ("I don't like being put on a leash, so I won't chew on the slipper again, because the leash is uncomfortable to me" [self-centered reasoning]). There are no animal prophets, no animal miracles, no animal Saviour. They have no need of it. They didn't screw up, we did it for them. AFAIC, they're already saved.
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My signature is apisdn umop.
Posts: 362 | From: HELP! I'm stuck in a DOS window! | Registered: Mar 2004
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SciptureAndPrayers
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FM,
quote:
Now, let's say that there's a human baby who is 2 years old, and do we say that this 2-year-old baby will go to heaven, because the baby is too young to understand God and Jesus?
This 2-year-old babyoy knows fewer words than Koko and even Koko has more of a chance to understand a basic concept of God and of wanting to "be with Jesus."
If we say that this 2-year-old human baby automatically gets to go to heaven without understanding even one iota about God and Jesus Christ, why should God not accept Koko who knows 1,000 words and who, if Koko the absolute basic about God and Jesus, would God accept Koko into eternal life by faith?
With regard to sacrilege, I was referring to the business of contemplating whether a gorilla would understand about God and Jesus Christ, and would God accept this as a sufficient basis for eternal life? Yes, it's definitely silly. I also believe that it's wrong to subject the holiness and majesty of the Almighty God to such foolish speculation. I think it's also wrong to cheapen our salvation, which cost God so much, by applying it to monkeys, even in fun.
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In Christ's love. Amen.
Posts: 345 | From: Rochester NY | Registered: Jul 2004
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While I can accept the idea that the discussion may be a little silly, I do not see it as sacraligous -
I am a firm believer in the idea that the only DUMB questions are the ones that go unasked.
What do you think God or Jesus would say if we were face to face with them, and we said "Lord, are there animals in heaven?" - I somehow doubt they would say, "Thats a STUPID sacriligous question!"
You see, although the discussion may have been steered by the Agnostic / Atheist question, it, im my opinion, stirred an answer that requires study and understanding. Who better than an Atheist to bring to Christ? And what if his willingness to be saved depended on your approach over his lost loved animal?
I am a firm believer that the Word states quite clearly that there will be animals in heaven.
Not to mention the idea that you could easily cause someone to stumble who was new to the Lord.
I can give you and actual example - When God works, he works in ways WE CANNOT understand -
1st Scenario -
Woman comes to Pastor, new in the Lord, and says Pastor Jim, I just lost my beloved Fluffy last night - She died after being with me for 17 years. She was a beautiful Calico kitty and I loved her so much, will you pray with me about her?
Pastor Jim Says - Uhhh, No - I don't think so. Animals have no soul and therefore are not in heaven - I am afraid her life ended when she died and you will never see her again.
Woman runs out, crushed, hurt, and never to step foot in front of another Pastor again - God says, YOU CAUSED HER TO STUMBLE - I was doing something in her life, and ONLY I can show myself strong for her. Had you said the right thing, she would be comforted and reading the Word Right now - You could have taken her to the scriptures I have given you that clearly state that FLuffy IS IN HEAVEN! Shame on you!!
2nd Scenario -
Woman tells story of 17 yr old Fluffy dying, and Pastor Jim says - Well, I can assure you that the Lord has always watched over her, and even in her death he was watching over her, caring for her even as he does the sparrows.
Lets open the Word and see what God has promised us about our loved ones, including the animals...
She is comforted, and on her way to becoming a powerful woman of God...
Now - God uses different people in different ways to accomplish things, and to reveal different things to different people, etc.
Speculation? I do not think so - I believe the word is clear that there are indeed animals in Heaven - As I pointed out in the above post..
You may want to re read the scripture before you call something sacrilege or speculation -
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SciptureAndPrayers
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You know, this thread started out as an interesting little series about Koko, and everybody loves Koko. It was like watching Animal Planet.
Then somehow, because of a comment by an agnostic/atheist, we started talking about the salvation of a gorilla vs. a two-year-old human. Why? First of all, if a gorilla with the intelligence of a two-year-old could put together the story of salvation, and accept Jesus, surely a two-year-old human should be capable of it. If that is the case, then a two-year-old child could also reject Christ, as could Koko. So a two-year-old could go to hell. Are you with me yet? This whole discussion is silly, and I think a little sacreligious. To me it falls into the category of idle speculation.
"But I tell you that men will have to give account on the day of judgment for every careless word they have spoken. For by your words you will be acquited and by your words you will be condemned." (Matt. 12:36,37)
"Do not let any unwholesome talk come out of your mouths, but only what is helpful for building others up according to their needs, that it may benefit those who listen." (Eph. 4:29)
"Nor should there be obscenity, foolish talk or coarse joking, which are out of place, but rather thanksgiving." (Eph. 5:4)
"Don't have anything to do with foolish and stupid arguments, because you know they produce quarrels." (2 Tim. 2:23)
"For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths." (2 Tim. 4:3,4)
"In your teaching show integrity, seriousness and soundness of speech that cannot be condemned, so that those who oppose you may be ashamed because they have nothing bad to say about us." (Titus 2:7,8)
Brethren, we have better uses of our time than this.
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In Christ's love. Amen.
Posts: 345 | From: Rochester NY | Registered: Jul 2004
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Niedziejkore
Where does your name come from?
I know of a band that, well, just curious where your name comes from...
Gorillas are only one of MANY MANY species -
Humans think they are the only ones...
My post had nothing to do with evolution....
FM
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Niedziejkore
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but then, I would bring up the question as to why Koko would want to believe in the bible? I ask this only because the bible clearly states that god created man in his own image. I don't think that if gorillas become evolved enough to understand the bible, that they would want to embrace that since it doesn't seem like gorillas were included in the bible much in any way. Of course, I think the gorilla race has a long way to go before this happens.
I would think that if anything, they would regard US as their gods, and not our god in heaven... and write their own 'bible' of sorts. Maybe regarding Koko as the mother of their race.
... or maybe they'll hunt us on horseback, keep us in zoos, experiment on us, etc. Planet of the Apes style.
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Worker bees can leave
Even drones can fly away
The queen is their slave.
Posts: 346 | From: Wisconsin | Registered: Feb 2004
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They both get to go ;-
Babies do AUTOMATICALLY go to heaven - They are not old enough to make the decision to follow the Lord or not..
Mark 10
13 People were bringing little children to Jesus to have him touch them, but the disciples rebuked them. 14When Jesus saw this, he was indignant. He said to them, "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these. 15I tell you the truth, anyone who will not receive the kingdom of God like a little child will never enter it."
Matthew 19
14Jesus said, "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these." 15When he had placed his hands on them, he went on from there.
Luke 17
1 Jesus said to his disciples: "Things that cause people to sin are bound to come, but woe to that person through whom they come. 2It would be better for him to be thrown into the sea with a millstone tied around his neck than for him to cause one of these little ones to sin.
I believe there WILL BE animals in Heaven just like here, and similar to the Grden of Eden - Harmony. Many today I believe, certain mammals particularly, who are much smarter than we, already KNOW this - Such as Dolphins and Whales...
The Bible teaches that "all flesh shall see the salvation of God - Lk.3:6
and that "all the living things in creation - everything that lives in the air, and on the ground, and under the ground, and in the sea" will praise Yahweh and the Lamb" - Rev.5:13
God's care and love extends to even the humble sparrow - Lk.12:6
and He has promised that He will restore all living things -Acts.3:21; Eph.1:10
Death as a whole will be annulled or abolished -1 Cor.15:25-26; 2 Tim.1:10 and the whole creation will be renewed -Rev.21:4-5
The resurrection will affect all celestial -heavenly- creatures and all terrestrial -earthly- ones -1 Cor.15:35-42
There will be a world-wide restoration of all life in its perfect frame - the curse pronounced by God after the Fall will be reversed - parasites will no longer live a parasitical lifestyle, carnivorous animals will become vegetarians, and all will be at peace.
LUKE 3:6 And all flesh shall see the salvation of God.'" -NKJ-
ACTS 3:21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began. -KJV-
REV. 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. -KJV-
REV. 21:5 And He that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And He said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful. -KJV
ECCLESIASTES 3:18 I said in my heart, "Concerning the condition of the sons of men, God tests them, that they may see that they themselves are like animals”. -NKJ-
ECCLESIASTES 3:19-20 Man's fate is like that of the animals; the same fate awaits them both: As one dies, so dies the other. All have the same breath, man has no advantage over the animal. Everything is meaningless. All go to the same place; all come from dust and to dust all return. -NIV-
ROMANS 8:19 For the earnest expectation of the creation waiteth for the revealing of the sons of God. -ASV-
ROMANS 8:19-21 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God, because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
-KJV-.
REV. 5:13 And every creature which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, I heard saying: "Blessing and honor and glory and power be to Him who sits on the throne, And to the Lamb, forever and ever!" -NKJ-
PSALM 36:6 Your righteousness is like the great mountains; your judgments are a great deep; O LORD, You preserve man and beast. -NKJ-
PSALM 36:6 Your righteousness is like the mighty mountains, your judgments are like the great deep; you save humans and animals alike, O LORD. -NRS-
PSALM 104:29 Thou hidest Thy face -- they are troubled, Thou gatherest their spirit -- they expire, and unto their dust they turn back. -YLT-
GENESIS 1:30 and to every animal of the earth, and to every fowl of the heavens, and to everything that creepeth on the earth, in which is a living soul, every green herb for food. And it was so. -DBY-
So they both get to go - For those who teach that animals have no souls, or there will be NO animals, have them PROVE it - It is pretty easy to prove God feels they are of value and worth saving and promised existence, where in the Bible does it say they do not?
Favor Minded
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in my dog run...
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BORN AGAIN
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My agnostic-atheist housemate wants to know this.
Koko the gorilla knows 1,000 words in American Sign Language, and she understands 2,000 words, and she knows how to use the 1,000 words in Sign Language. Koko knows more words than a 2-year-old human baby.
Now, let's say that there's a human baby who is 2 years old, and do we say that this 2-year-old baby will go to heaven, because the baby is too young to understand God and Jesus?
This 2-year-old babyoy knows fewer words than Koko and even Koko has more of a chance to understand a basic concept of God and of wanting to "be with Jesus."
If we say that this 2-year-old human baby automatically gets to go to heaven without understanding even one iota about God and Jesus Christ, why should God not accept Koko who knows 1,000 words and who, if Koko the absolute basic about God and Jesus, would God accept Koko into eternal life by faith?
That's what my roommate wants to know. For me, a question has arisen from this, and that is, do we as Christians say that babies automatically go to heaven, or do we not say that?
God bless, ![[Cross]](graemlins/cross.gif) BORN AGAIN
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BORN AGAIN
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I think I told the story once pn this BBS about, I think it was Lucy?? the chimpanzee, who had doo-dooed on the rug of her keeper's house, and when asked in sign language if she had done it, she lied and signed back that the horse had done it.
Lucy?? the chimpanzee is going to hell, for sure. Someone should have signed her the penalty for lying, right? That's what happens when Lucy?? the chimpanzee does not hang out with Christians. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
With love, BORN AGAIN
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Niedziejkore
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Not really an "End of times" article, but interesting nonetheless. Can we help apes transcend to the level of human beings?
Koko, a 33-year-old gorilla that was taught to communicate using American Sign Language, recently told her caregivers that she desired oral surgery to remove an aching tooth, which was extracted with success on Sunday.
The unusual request likely marks the first time that an animal ever has used language created by humans to ask for surgery.
Lorraine Slater, development director of the Northern California-based Gorilla Foundation that houses Koko, told Discovery News that the lowland gorilla had been signing about tooth discomfort for a while before she communicated that the pain had become more intense in the past three to four weeks.
Slater said Koko's caregivers created a chart containing the numbers one through 10 with corresponding amounts of dots, as the gorilla responds to visual information.
Over the past several days, the researchers asked the gorilla on a daily basis to communicate her level of tooth pain.
"Sometimes the pain was rated a two or a three just after Koko was given medication," said Slater. "She then rated the pain as a seven and then an eight. We gave her the choice of having more medication or an operation, and Koko communicated that she desired the operation."
Slater explained that the gorilla knew what an operation was because caregivers previously gave Koko an "operation doll, similar to what young children play with," along with lessons about basic medical procedures.
"Koko in the past has told us that she was feeling under the weather, but this perhaps is the most dramatic example of her communication abilities concerning health," said Slater.
When asked if she wished to meet her doctors before the procedure, Koko said yes. On Sunday, a medical team consisting of doctors and veterinarians volunteered to examine the over 300-pound gorilla.
By all accounts, the doctors were star struck.
David Liang, an assistant professor of medicine at Stanford University who helped to conduct the medical exam, commented to the San Francisco Chronicle, "Koko's famous. It's not often that we get to work on a celebrity. Probably, Koko is less demanding."
Slater said Koko remained calm throughout the exam and even beckoned one of the doctors, who was wearing red, to come closer. Slater explained that Koko's favorite color is red.
The gorilla then signed that she wished to see the doctor's business card, which Koko examined before eating it.
"She didn't eat anything before the surgery, so my guess is that she was very hungry," said Slater, who added that Koko now is eating baby food and doing fine, save for a bit of tooth pain.
Since the foundation was established in 1976, Koko has learned to sign over 1,000 words and she understands over 2,000 words.
According to her caregivers, the gorilla has a tested IQ of between 70-95 on a human scale, where 100 is considered "normal." Koko's companion Michael had a vocabulary of 600 words before he died four years ago.
Aside from her tooth troubles, Koko is in good shape, according to her doctors. The team that examined her on Sunday believes no medical problems should prevent her from siring children with her mate, Ndume.
Slater indicated that gorillas have given birth in their 40s, so motherhood may be in Koko's future.
"Koko is so admired that we hope to build a sense of care and concern for all gorillas, particularly as they are physiologically very similar to us," said Slater. "Somehow we need to build public momentum. With apes now being hunted to dangerously low numbers, it is critical that we all take a stand to save them from extinction."
[Source.]
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Worker bees can leave
Even drones can fly away
The queen is their slave.
Posts: 346 | From: Wisconsin | Registered: Feb 2004
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