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Author
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Topic: Rick Warrens Global PEACE Plan
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lshopeful
New Member
Member # 3479
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posted
Dan, i read this book back in Dec. Let me just say it rang of the sound of man not of God. We can't forget how popular this author and teacher is. There are Sunday school classes using his material to teach, even here in the Bible Belt where i live.
"Purpose" is still on a shelf in my library. I think i'll take it along to the lake house with me this evening (no need for an extra bible, we keep several in each of our homes) and do a little research on the subtle and no so subtle diffeences. Side note: it was actually a pleasant read but please keep in mind i'm an avid reader. The man, or someone working with him is very talented and very charismatic.
Posts: 6 | From: US | Registered: Jun 2004
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Daniel S
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Member # 1714
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by lshopeful:
I too have read "The Purpose Driven Life". It was a gift from a dear friend. I suppose I am a rather lazy reader, for I did not research the author before hand. I did find the book bothered me and related this fact to my friend. We had lengthy disscusions about it and she, inturn, began to research the author. Troubling stuff. Thank's so much for the enlightening discussions. I'm a new member and am delighted with the honesty and seriousness of the group.
God bless.
Welcome "a-board" Ishopeful,
Your post above is the first in this thread that truly interests me. I am interested neither in defending nor denouncing Rick Warren; I am, however interesting in your thoughts about the book in questions and specifically what bothered you about it. I understand that sometimes it is difficult to put precise words to such feelings, but if you can nail down some specifics, I'd like to hear (read) them.
Dan
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The Lord bless you indeed.
http://www.First-EMC.org (shameless self promotion)
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SoftTouch
Advanced Member
Member # 2316
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posted
Welcome to the Board Ishopeful! Thank you for sharing your insight into the book as well!
Thank you too Dale and AMEN!
PRAISE GOD that He Has Given Some Eyes to See and Ears to Hear! ![[clap2]](graemlins/clap2.gif) I am eternally Greatful for their faithfulness in presenting this information so I could see it and share it here ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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Psalm 119:104Through thy precepts I get understanding: therefore I hate every false way. 105Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.
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becauseHElives
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Member # 87
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posted
quote:
(Greg) Just because a man says, I am a Christian doen't mean it is so! Adolf Hitler said he was a Christian as well, did that make him one?
President George Bush also claims to be a Christian, but his word and his action conflict with his claim.
I do not know his Rick Warren, I have heard about his book "The Purpose Driven Life". Just resently while in Kansas some of the people were talking about it. They were using it as a youth study guide. I can not comment one way are another as to have rad the book, but Softtouch has brought up some alarming information about this man and his teachings.
It seems to me that most all of what is written, preached and produced today has one Purpose. To make money. Latest revelation from God $29.95.
The Scriptures tell us to know those that labour amoung us.
I was caught in the deception of the "Passion". I wanted to believe it was a good thing, I saw only what I wanted to see. But Yahweh is faithful when we desire truth, if we love the truth, to lead us into the truth.
But if we do not have a love for the truth, Yahweh will allow us to be deceived, He will even send strong delution Himself to cause us to believe a lie and be damned.
Yahweh is each man judge, to where they will spend eternity.
But Yahweh has given us His Word and His Spirit to lead and guide us into all truth. We must pray and ernestly seek to know the truth. We must be as the Bereans, and study the Scriptures to see if such things are so, when someone claim they speak for Yahweh.
We live in a day where everything is about money, even in the Church. Satan knows the root of all evil is money.
Satan knows to get the focus off the cross and off of Yeshua's Blood and he can keep the Church, The body of Christ defeated in the work that needs to be accomplished.
So let us fix our focus on Yeshua.
Thank you Softtouch for the information, their are many decievers that have gone out among us, wolves in sheeps clothing, seeking to devour.
There is only one "Global Peace Plan" that is the return of "THE PRINCE OF PEACE" Yeshua!
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
Posts: 4578 | From: Southeast Texas | Registered: Jun 2002
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lshopeful
New Member
Member # 3479
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posted
I too have read "The Purpose Driven Life". It was a gift from a dear friend. I suppose I am a rather lazy reader, for I did not research the author before hand. I did find the book bothered me and related this fact to my friend. We had lengthy disscusions about it and she, inturn, began to research the author. Troubling stuff. Thank's so much for the enlightening discussions. I'm a new member and am delighted with the honesty and seriousness of the group.
God bless.
Posts: 6 | From: US | Registered: Jun 2004
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SoftTouch
Advanced Member
Member # 2316
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bro. Greg:
I figured once you started to search this mans deadly teaching you would get an ear and eye full! Keep passing the info on! Some may be snatched from the grips of death by your seeking and posting! God Bless your efforts!
Thank you for your encouragement my Brother God is truly blessing me through this research too.
Daniel, I'm not sure what to make of your statement?
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Psalm 119:104Through thy precepts I get understanding: therefore I hate every false way. 105Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.
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Daniel S
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Member # 1714
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posted
Astounding... simply astounding how one can take any given statement and make something evil of it.
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The Lord bless you indeed.
http://www.First-EMC.org (shameless self promotion)
Posts: 436 | From: on the Ohio River | Registered: Jun 2003
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Bro. Greg
Advanced Member
Member # 2943
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posted
I figured once you started to search this mans deadly teaching you would get an ear and eye full! Keep passing the info on! Some may be snatched from the grips of death by your seeking and posting! God Bless your efforts!
Trafield, I would be willing to do some bible study with you if you would like. We are never to old or young to learn!
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Isaiah 5:20(KJV) 20Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!
Bro. Greg
In and By His Grace
http://www.mychristiansite.com/ministries/pass_it_on
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SoftTouch
Advanced Member
Member # 2316
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posted
The more I research this, the more Floored I am...
Here is another Enlightening set of statements from Rick Warren taken from the website: http://www.cuttingedge.org/articles/db037.htm (Part 2 of the article previously quoted)
“But Pastor Warren adds some questionable organizational reasons for emphasizing fellowship and unity. As he explained in his article, "Relationships hold your church together," fellowship among members may be the most effective way to "grow" large and strong churches. So, in the Church Growth Movement (CGM), people-pleasing fellowship—designed specifically to bond spiritually diverse people to each other—becomes a major purpose. This process includes the following steps:
1. Continually emphasize the importance of fellowship and unity, commitment (including signed contracts) and community participation. Stress oneness—the "corporate nature" of churches. This is the heart of "systems thinking," whether in secular business or church: everything is interconnected; all is one. Nothing has meaning unless it fits into the "Greater Whole."
2. Create organizational structures for bringing visitors and new members quickly into small groups where trained "change leaders" can facilitate the dialogue, encourage bonding and monitor the collective training.
3. Warn people against neglecting "accountability" to the five purposes (or "mission statement")—which set boundaries for topics to be discussed. Since "divisive" or "distracting" topics such as government education and occult entertainment may be seen as obstacles to the envisioned unity, they are often discouraged, if not banned.
(As Pastor Warren says, "A purpose statement reduces frustration because it allows us to forget about things that don't really matter." [3, page 87] Of course, anti-Christian public education and popular entertainment do matter—even if "change leaders" refuse to recognize their influence on our children.)
(insert by SoftTouch: Here are these five purposes stated by Warren in his PDL book taken from part 1 on: http://www.cuttingedge.org/articles/db035.htm
“1. You were planned for God's pleasure.
2. You were formed for God's family.
3. You were created to become like Christ.
4. You were shaped for serving God.
5. You were made for a mission. [1, contents] ”
Those statements are all true, but they are incomplete as guidelines for all of life's challenges. Later he tells us:
"Knowing your purpose simplifies your life. It defines what you do and what you don't do. Your purpose becomes the standard you use to evaluate which activities are essential and which aren't. You simply ask, 'Does this activity help me fulfill one of God's purposes for my life?'
"Without a clear purpose, you have no foundation on which you base decisions, allocate your time, and use your resources."[1, page 31]
What does Pastor Warren mean by "a clear purpose?" A blend of his five stated purposes?
Neither the five purposes, nor any other single purpose, can replace Jesus Christ, the Living Word, as the "foundation on which you base decision, allocate your time and use resources." Christ's Life in us -- speaking through His Word revealed to us -- is our supreme, unrivaled foundation and guide. The Living Word remains "a lamp to my feet and a light to my path" no matter where His chosen purposes or unseen paths might take you and me for the duration of our lives on earth.)…
back to the quote of his article and this next one is UNBELIEVABLE!!!
4. Package truth in ways that make it palatable and pleasing to everyone, members, unbelievers and seekers alike. Avoid offensive Scriptures and divisive warnings. De-emphasize Biblical absolutes or "doctrine." They hinder unity and "continual change."
5. Use signed contracts, the dialectic process and continual assessments to hold all members accountable to the kind of fellowship mandated by the purpose-driven management system.
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Psalm 119:104Through thy precepts I get understanding: therefore I hate every false way. 105Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.
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SoftTouch
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Member # 2316
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posted
Thank you my Brother Drew! ![[Kiss]](graemlins/Kiss.gif)
Had there been a vote, I'm sure I would have won "most likely to not win a popularity contest" LOL!! But that's not the point, the point is The Truth (which is Jesus!)
Rick Warren uses “The Message” Paraphrase Bible throughout his book “The Purpose Driven Life.” Let us examine how this watered-down version completely changes the original God-Breathed Scriptures:
First, let’s look at John 4:23 (the meaning which has changed is in bold)
KJV: "...the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him." John 4:23
NKJV: "...the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him." John 4:23
NIV: "...a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks." John 4:23
Message: "That's the kind of people the Father is out looking for: those who are simply and honestly themselves before him in their worship." (page 103) Emphasis added
Now let’s look at Matt 6:9
KJV: "Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name." Matt. 6:9
NKJV: "Our Father in heaven, hallowed be Your name." Matt. 6:9
NIV: "Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name." Matt. 6:9
Message: "Our Father in heaven, reveal who you are." Matt. 6:9
And Now John 14:28
KJV: "my Father is greater than I." John 14:28
NKJV: "My Father is greater than I." John 14:28
NIV: “... the Father is greater than I." John 14:28
Message: "The Father is the goal and purpose of my life." John 14:28
Here’s Rev 4:11
KJV: "Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power...." Rev 4:11
NKJV: “You are worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honor and power....” Rev 4:11
NIV: “You are worthy, our Lord and God, to receive glory and honor and power...." Rev 4:11
Message: "Worthy, Oh Master! Yes, our God! Take the glory! the honor! the power!..." [1, page 319]
And finally, Romans 8:6
KJV: "For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace." Romans 8:6
NKJV: "For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace." Romans 8:6
NIV: "The mind of sinful man is death, but the mind controlled by the Spirit is life and peace." Romans 8:6
Message: "Obsession with self in these matters is a dead end; attention to God leads us out into the open, into a spacious, free life." [1, page 18]
“Ponder the last section. To be "carnally minded" means far more than "obsession with self." It involves the spiritual blindness and death of a person who lives and thinks according to his own capricious human nature -- separated from God's grace and Spirit. He may claim to be a Christian, but his finite mind cannot grasp God's truths, heart or will. A simpler, modified Bible, stripped of its deeper and harder truths, doesn't help. God never intended that the Bible should be understood apart from His supernatural work in the hearts of His chosen people. [Matt 13:13; Luke 8:10; Jer 5:21; Acts 26:18]
The other parallel follows. To be "spiritually minded" means that, through the Holy Spirit, the believer's mind has been opened to understand Scriptures. God's life-changing Truth has renewed his heart and enabled him to know and love God. It has given him the joy and endurance needed to follow the Shepherd -- not along that spacious highway that draws the crowds -- but on the narrow unpopular way which draws us ever closer to Him. Matt 7:13-14
Since the Bible is the foundation of our faith, we had better follow its clear and timeless guidelines. They alone enable us to maintain the purity and accuracy of His Word even as we translate it into all the world's different languages. In its totality, the Bible reveals the nature of God, the nature of man -- both in Christ and apart from Him. Made alive by His Spirit, it reveals His guidelines for our lives, His promises of each day's challenges, His hope for eternity. It is the foundation of our faith and the standard for our lives. “
This has all come from the article on: http://www.cuttingedge.org/articles/db035.htm
Under the section titled: “Softening God's Word”
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Psalm 119:104Through thy precepts I get understanding: therefore I hate every false way. 105Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.
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Caretaker
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Member # 36
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posted
Thank you Sister for sharing. Kind of reminds me of how the ecumenical community was praising the "Passion" movie, and how those of us who were pointing-out the overwhelming RCC influence, and the departure from the Word, were in the minority.
It is a warm and fuzzy feel-good "gospel" presented like a Baskin Robbins, in 39 flavors
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A Servant of Christ,
Drew
1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..
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SoftTouch
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Member # 2316
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posted
"I charge you therefore before God and the Lord Jesus Christ, who will judge the living and the dead at His appearing and His kingdom: Preach the word! Be ready in season and out of season. Convince, rebuke, exhort, with all longsuffering and teaching. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables. But you be watchful in all things...." 2 Timothy 4:1-5
http://www.cuttingedge.org/articles/db035.htm
(A snippet from a Lengthy article on the teachings of Rick Warren)
(this is the beginning of the article to show the heart of the authors who wrote this)
Our website began to receive requests for information about The Purpose Driven Life last year. So Andy and I bought the book, read it quickly and were troubled by some of its claims, promises and paraphrased "Bible" references. But we also found many true and encouraging pages. Since we didn't want to criticize Rick Warren or confuse those who apparently were helped by his book, we left it on the shelf.
By this fall, Rick Warren's manual on the Christian life had become the topic of discussion in churches around the world. The letters from concerned visitors multiplied. After reading the book again, we could no longer ignore its subtle distortions, its half-truths, its conflicting messages or its pragmatic permissiveness: if it works (i.e. brings people into the church), it's okay! "God loves variety!"[2]
Nor could we accept Pastor Warren's "rules for growth" which tells us to "never criticize what God is blessing."[3] Implying that church growth and changed lives prove God's delight in our human methods, it cancels His call to "be on guard" and to discern deception. Some may say, "don't touch God's anointed," but we don't believe any leader is so "anointed" that his teaching is beyond Biblical accountability. While only God can judge the heart of a person, we are called to help each other follow His guidelines, not be driven by today's new management systems. [see Driven or Led?] Praying that God would guide us, we began our response with the following background information….
(Further down these points are made)
Widening the gate to the Kingdom
The phenomenal success of Rick Warren's books and marketing skills has both popularized and accelerated the Church Growth Movement (CGM). Around the world, seekers and believers are reading The Purpose Driven Life and discussing its 40 chapters. Following its guidelines, they share their thoughts, express their feelings and "bounce ideas off each other." [1, page 11] They sign contracts and hold each other accountable to the social and spiritual ideals of the 21st Century Church community. And, says Pastor Warren, their lives are being transformed. [see note: transformation]
I am sure many are. Pastor Warren has written some encouraging pages about God, His glory, our walk with Him and our fellowship with one another. I especially appreciate the sections that show the delight of a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. But I was a little concerned when he invited all his readers to "quietly whisper the prayer that will change your eternity: 'Jesus, I believe in you and I receive you.'"[1, page 58]
You might ask, what could possibly be wrong with that short prayer? Why question his promise that it would open the gate to God's Kingdom and "change... eternity" for all who prayed? Don't we want to bring as many as possible into God's eternity?
Yes, of course we do! And God could surely use those nine words to draw His chosen ones to Himself. But the promises and assumptions that accompany the prayer could also produce serious problems in the church. For many will pray the prayer with little or no awareness of the holy nature of God, of the unholy power of sin, or of the deep chasm between the two. In our times of easy believism and Biblical illiteracy, anyone can personalize and claim God's promises without any prompting by the Spirit, genuine conversion (spiritual rebirth) or lasting inner change. Where people learn to tolerate evil and flow with the crowd, true repentance is rare and faith often becomes presumption. Still unregenerate, many happily accept the group's consensus: You prayed the prayer, therefore you must be a Christian.
Pastor Warren agrees. "If you sincerely meant that prayer, congratulations!" he tells the reader. "Welcome to the family of God! You are now ready to discover and start living God's purpose for your life! [1, page 59]
Thousands of small groups using Saddleback's study guide and Teaching Video for the 40 Days of Purpose are led in a slightly longer prayer. They hear Pastor Warren speak these words:
"Do you have a relationship with Jesus Christ? I you aren't sure of this, I'd like the privilege of leading you in a prayer to settle the issue. Let's bow our heads. I'm going to pray a prayer and you can follow it silently in your mind:
'Dear God, I want to know Your purpose for my life. I don't want to waste the rest of my life on the wrong things. Today I want to take the first step in preparing for eternity by getting to know You. Jesus Christ, I don't understand it all, but as much as I know how, I want to open my life to You. I ask you to come into my life and make yourself real to me. Use this series to help me know what You made me for. Thank you. Amen.'
"If you just prayed that prayer for the very first time, I congratulate you. You've just become a part of the family of God."
Is this a response to the gospel? Where is repentance, acknowledgement of need, or confession of personal sin? Where is the cross? The Bible tells us that saving "faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God." [Romans 10:17-18] But none of the Scriptures that show the gospel are mentioned in this first lesson. Biblically illiterate friends and neighbors who join the group would pray this prayer without any real knowledge of the cross, of the Savior, or of God's view of sin. In fact, the concept of salvation isn't included in the first lesson. And if it had been there, the context of the lesson would suggest that we are merely saved from a purposeless life -- not from bondage to sin.
For the first lesson deals with "the consequences of not knowing your purpose" -- not with Jesus Christ. It warns the group that "without knowing your purpose, life will seem TIRESOME... UNFULFILLING... UNCONTROLLABLE." And it repeats the positive (but not particularly Biblical) promise that "knowing the purpose of your life will –
"give your life FOCUS."
"SIMPLIFY your life."
"increase MOTIVATION in your life."
"PREPARE YOU FOR ETERNITY."
Even so, all who pray the prayer will be affirmed and celebrated as new members of the family of God. But are they? We don't know. Yet, statistics suggest that most people who call themselves Christians have little understanding of the gospel.
It's not surprising. Today's "positive" gospel emphasizes love, minimizes doctrine and ignores divine justice. The essential Biblical truths that prepare hearts for genuine conversion no longer fit. A postmodern "believer" may be full of self-confidence but woefully short on spiritual awareness. A recent study by pollster George Barna bears this out:
"...relatively few people have a biblical worldview - even among devoutly religious people. The survey discovered that only 9% of born again Christians have such a perspective on life. The numbers were even lower among other religious classifications....
"For the purposes of the research, a biblical worldview was defined as believing that absolute moral truths exist; that such truth is defined by the Bible; and firm belief in six specific religious views. Those views were that Jesus Christ lived a sinless life; God is the all-powerful and all-knowing Creator of the universe and He stills rules it today; salvation is a gift from God and cannot be earned; Satan is real; a Christian has a responsibility to share their faith in Christ with other people; and the Bible is accurate in all of its teachings......
"Upon comparing the perspectives of those who have a biblical worldview with those who do not, the former group were 31 times less likely to accept cohabitation; 18 times less likely to endorse drunkenness; 15 times less likely to condone gay sex; 12 times less likely to accept profanity; and 11 times less likely to describe adultery as morally acceptable. In addition, less than one-half of one percent of those with a biblical worldview said voluntary exposure to pornography was morally acceptable (compared to 39% of other adults), and a similarly miniscule proportion endorsed abortion (compared to 46% of adults who lack a biblical worldview).[10]
"At least Christians are not the only ones addled by their culture into holding contradictory beliefs," writes Gene Edward Veith. "Atheists are just as confused about their theology. ... They believe that accepting Christ can bring eternal life, even though they don't believe in Jesus Christ. Just like 'nonevangelical born-agains.'"[11]
But they're all coming together under the worldwide ecumenical umbrella of the Church Growth Movement. As I wrote in Re-Inventing the Church, the 21st century vision of global oneness is drawing diverse churches and people into vast "Christian" networks that provide trained leadership and management consultants. Rick Warren's communitarian management guru, Peter Drucker, described it well. Quoting him in a 1994 report, the "Leadership Network" wrote,
"The Spirit is moving.... there is a substantial critical mass of people and churches that are already moving.' ... While acknowledging that there are still many unhealthy churches [those that don't conform to the new, inclusive pattern], there is a justified 'change in basic premises, basic attitudes, basic mindset... on the whole, we are on the march...."[12] [emphasis added]
As you saw earlier, this diversity is essential to the mind-changing dialectic process that Drucker has helped establish in organizations everywhere. (We will take a closer look at it in Part 7 of this series) Remember Robert Klenck's words: "...in this movement, it is imperative that unbelievers are brought into the church; otherwise, the process of continual change cannot begin. There must be an antithesis (unbelievers) present to oppose the thesis (believers), in order to move towards consensus. (compromise), and move the believers away from their moral absolutism (resistance to change)." If the church member continues to resist change, they may be asked to leave. Many concerned and uncompromising Christians can testify to the pain of being expelled under the banner of "church discipline."
(the article continues and is Quite Long…. I have not read the entire article but felt this portion that I have read is VERY IMPORTANT)
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Psalm 119:104Through thy precepts I get understanding: therefore I hate every false way. 105Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.
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Trafield
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posted
quote:
Trafield, these people that Paul was speaking about were people that, Stood up and proclaim, Hey, I am a Christian! Those are we to not even to eat with and put away from among us.
It is sad to see a brother or sister say, "Just because they are worshiping Budaah they are still a Christian! You must not judge them for their Idolatry! That is why folks are flocking by the thousands to this man's wicked teachings.
Just because a man says, I am a Christian doen't mean it is so! Adolf Hitler said he was a Christian as well, did that make him one?
If you knew the Word you would know how easy it is to test the spirits to see if they are of God.
I acknowledge that Jesus Christ is God in the flesh. So does Rick Warren, from what I have read. So my rebuke of your attacks are certainly justified and exposes the source of your venom. Scripture is clear on how we are to test the spirits.
1 John 4:1-8
1Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.
2By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God;
3and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God; this is the spirit of the antichrist, of which you have heard that it is coming, and now it is already in the world.
4You are from God, little children, and have overcome them; because greater is He who is in you than he who is in the world.
5They are from the world; therefore they speak as from the world, and the world listens to them.
6We are from God; he who knows God listens to us; he who is not from God does not listen to us. By this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error.
7Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God.
8The one who does not love does not know God, for God is love.
If you have a problem with this, Greg, then your problem is with God. So if you are going to keep pointing fingers, try pointing it at the mirror. It is there that you will find the real hinderance to the church.
You should know that there are spiritual consequences for messing with a child of God. You reap what you sew.
So if you want to keep on accusing me and other brothers and sisters in Christ then that is between you and God. I am posting the beliefs of Pasor Rick Warren's Saddleback Church below. A quick search would have shown this to any would-be accuser if he or she (Softouch) really wanted to know the truth before hurling an accusation. Read on, Greg. I have said all I will on this matter.
http://www.saddleback.com/flash/believe2.html
What is The Bible?
The Holy Spirit inspired human authors to write the books of the Bible. Every word of scripture is chosen by God himself. The Bible is God’s love letter to all of humanity and is the final authority in every issue it communicates. It is complete truth, and we can trust it for all matters in this life and eternity. (Exodus 24:4; Deuteronomy 4:1-2; 17:19; Joshua 8:34; Psalm 19:7-10; 119:11,89,105,140; Isaiah 34:16; 40:8; Jeremiah 15:16; 36; Matthew 5:17-18; 22:29; Luke 21:33; 24:44-46; John 5:39; 16:13-15; 17:17; Acts 2:16ff.; 17:11; Romans 15:4; 16:25-26; 2 Timothy 3:15-17; Hebrews 1:1-2; 4:12; 1 Peter 1:25; 2 Peter 1:19-21)
Who is God?
Many people have differing ideas about the nature of God. Most of those ideas have one thing in common – they are the product of human intellect! When it comes to our Creator, it matters very little who we think God is. The Bible is the only trustworthy source for understanding Him. Scripture teaches that God created everything we can see -- and even everything we can’t see -- out of nothing. Although it might be difficult for the human mind to comprehend, the Bible teaches that He is one yet has existed since the beginning of time as three distinct and equal persons: the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. (Genesis 1:1; 2:7; Exodus 3:14; 6:2-3; 15:11ff.; 20:1ff.; Leviticus 22:2; Deuteronomy 6:4; 32:6; 1 Chronicles 29:10; Psalm 19:1-3; Isaiah 43:3,15; 64:8; Jeremiah 10:10; 17:13; Matthew 6:9ff.; 7:11; 23:9; 28:19; Mark 1:9-11; John 4:24; 5:26; 14:6-13; 17:1-8; Acts 1:7; Romans 8:14-15; 1 Corinthians 8:6; Galatians 4:6; Ephesians 4:6; Colossians 1:15; 1 Timothy 1:17; Hebrews 11:6; 12:9; 1 Peter 1:17; 1 John 5:7)
Who is Jesus?
Jesus Christ is God’s Son and an equal of the Father. He has existed from the beginning of time, yet lived on earth during the first century A.D. Throughout His earthly life, he was completely God and completely human at the same time. After living a perfect, sinless life, Jesus offered Himself as the perfect sacrifice for every human being who has ever lived by dying on a Roman cross. After three days in the grave, he defeated sin and death by rising from the grave. He then ascended to Heaven and will return to earth one day to reign as King. (Genesis 18:1ff.; Psalm 2:7ff.; 110:1ff.; Isaiah 7:14; 53; Matthew 1:18-23; 3:17; 8:29; 11:27; 14:33; 16:16,27; 17:5; 27; 28:1-6,19; Mark 1:1; 3:11; Luke 1:35; 4:41; 22:70; 24:46; John 1:1-18,29; 10:30,38; 11:25-27; 12:44-50; 14:7-11; 16:15-16,28; 17:1-5, 21-22; 20:1-20,28; Acts 1:9; 2:22-24; 7:55-56; 9:4-5,20; Romans 1:3-4; 3:23-26; 5:6-21; 8:1-3,34; 10:4; 1 Corinthians 1:30; 2:2; 8:6; 15:1-8,24-28; 2 Corinthians 5:19-21; 8:9; Galatians 4:4-5; Ephesians 1:20; 3:11; 4:7-10; Philippians 2:5-11; Colossians 1:13-22; 2:9; 1 Thessalonians 4:14-18; 1 Timothy 2:5-6; 3:16; Titus 2:13-14; Hebrews 1:1-3; 4:14-15; 7:14-28; 9:12-15,24-28; 12:2; 13:8; 1 Peter 2:21-25; 3:22; 1 John 1:7-9; 3:2; 4:14-15; 5:9; 2 John 7-9; Revelation 1:13-16; 5:9-14; 12:10-11; 13:8; 19:16)
Who is the Holy Spirit?
The Holy Spirit is a full and equal part of the Trinity. He works in the world to make all people understand their need for Jesus Christ. The Holy Spirit lives inside every follower of Jesus from the moment they decide to follow Him. The Spirit is our power source for life, ministry and spiritual growth. To tap into that power, we must continually yield to the Holy Spirit. (Genesis 1:2; Judges 14:6; Job 26:13; Psalm 51:11; 139:7ff.; Isaiah 61:1-3; Joel 2:28-32; Matthew 1:18; 3:16; 4:1; 12:28-32; 28:19; Mark 1:10,12; Luke 1:35; 4:1,18-19; 11:13; 12:12; 24:49; John 4:24; 14:16-17,26; 15:26; 16:7-14; Acts 1:8; 2:1-4,38; 4:31; 5:3; 6:3; 7:55; 8:17,39; 10:44; 13:2; 15:28; 16:6; 19:1-6; Romans 8:9-11,14-16,26-27; 1 Corinthians 2:10-14; 3:16; 12:3-11,13; Galatians 4:6; Ephesians 1:13-14; 4:30; 5:18; 1 Thessalonians 5:19; 1 Timothy 3:16; 4:1; 2 Timothy 1:14; 3:16; Hebrews 9:8,14; 2 Peter 1:21; 1 John 4:13; 5:6-7; Revelation 1:10; 22:17)
Who is Man?
Man is the pinnacle of God’s creation and the only being on the earth whom God made in His own spiritual image, with the moral ability to choose right from wrong. Every person, although endowed with the image of God, inherited a disobedient heart from Adam, the very first man. This attitude of disobedience (called sin in the Bible) – unless rectified through Christ – forever keeps man from forming a relationship with his Creator. This attitude also keeps us from being the kind of person God created us to be. (Genesis 1:26-30; 2:5,7,18-22; 3; 9:6; Psalm 1; 8:3-6; 32:1-5; 51:5; Isaiah 6:5; Jeremiah 17:5; Matthew 16:26; Acts 17:26-31; Romans 1:19-32; 3:10-18,23; 5:6,12,19; 6:6; 7:14-25; 8:14-18,29; 1 Corinthians 1:21-31; 15:19,21-22; Ephesians 2:1-22; Colossians 1:21-22; 3:9-11)
What is Salvation?
Our disobedient nature has eternally separated us from our Creator. No matter how hard we try, we can never earn our way back into God’s presence. Our only hope is to trust Jesus as God’s provision for our disobedience. Whenever you make that decision, you step into the eternal and abundant life Jesus promises for all believers. (Genesis 3:15; Exodus 3:14-17; 6:2-8; Matthew 1:21; 4:17; 16:21-26; 27:22-28:6; Luke 1:68-69; 2:28-32; John 1:11-14,29; 3:3-21,36; 5:24; 10:9,28-29; 15:1-16; 17:17; Acts 2:21; 4:12; 15:11; 16:30-31; 17:30-31; 20:32; Romans 1:16-18; 2:4; 3:23-25; 4:3ff.; 5:8-10; 6:1-23; 8:1-18,29-39; 10:9-10,13; 13:11-14; 1 Corinthians 1:18,30; 6:19-20; 15:10; 2 Corinthians 5:17-20; Galatians 2:20; 3:13; 5:22-25; 6:15; Ephesians 1:7; 2:8-22; 4:11-16; Philippians 2:12-13; Colossians 1:9-22; 3:1ff.; 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24; 2 Timothy 1:12; Titus 2:11-14; Hebrews 2:1-3; 5:8-9; 9:24-28; 11:1-12:8,14; James 2:14-26; 1 Peter 1:2-23; 1 John 1:6-2:11; Revelation 3:20; 21:1-22:5)
If I Accept Jesus Christ Is My Salvation Forever?
Definitely! Your salvation is through the most trustworthy being in the universe – Jesus Christ! You didn’t do anything to earn your salvation, and you can’t do anything to lose it. Your salvation is maintained by God’s trustworthiness and love not by what you do. (John 3:16; John 10:27-29; Rom. 8:35-39; John 6:37,39; Eph. 1:13-14; John 5:24)
How do we grow as believers?
God has set us apart (sanctified us) for the purpose of growing us to become more like His Son. Through our faith in the Bible and the transforming work of the Holy Spirit, God changes our heart in order to change our character and actions. God’s promise is that when we reach heaven, He will complete the process of making every believer like Jesus.
(Deuteronomy 4:1,5,9,14; 6:1-10; 31:12-13; Nehemiah 8:1-8; Job 28:28; Psalm 19:7ff.; 119:11; Proverbs 3:13ff.; 4:1-10; 8:1-7,11; 15:14; Ecclesiastes 7:19; Matthew 5:2; 7:24ff.; 28:19-20; Luke 2:40; 1 Corinthians 1:18-31; Ephesians 4:11-16; Philippians 4:8; Colossians 2:3,8-9; 1 Timothy 1:3-7; 2 Timothy 2:15; 3:14-17; Hebrews 5:12-6:3; James 1:5; 3:17)
Why is evil present in the world?
While God will one day do away with all evil, He currently allows evil in the world - which provides mankind a choice. Satan is the source of all evil and will suffer an eternity of separation from God for his choices. (Hell was originally prepared for the devil and his demons.) Evil is present in the world because of mankind’s choice in the Garden of Eden. Because of Jesus, we have the opportunity to choose the goodness of God’s grace over evil. While God could eliminate evil immediately, He endures the grief of waiting to do so in order to give more people the opportunity to come to faith in Him. God is able to cause all things, even the evil in this world, to work together for the good of those who love Him.
(Genesis 2:17; Genesis 3:1-24; Romans 3:23; Romans 5:12; Psalm 100:5; John 3:19; Psalm 81:12; Revelation 12:7-9; Revelation 20:10; 1 Corinthians 15:56; Colossians 2:15; 1 John 2:2; 1 Timothy 2:3-4; 2 Peter 3:9; Romans 8:28-29)
How Will I Spend Eternity?
God made you to exist forever. Heaven is a perfect place, and since none of us is perfect we were all headed for an eternity of separation from God. That’s why God sent Jesus: to pay the price for our sins so that we can spend eternity with Him. What you decide about Jesus Christ in this life will determine where you will spend eternity. If you reject Him, you’ll spend it eternally separated from God in Hell. If you accept Him, you’ll spend it eternally connected with Him in Heaven. Hell is a place of separation, suffering and darkness. Heaven is a place of eternal joy in God’s presence. (Isaiah 2:4; 11:9; Matthew 16:27; 18:8-9; 19:28; 24:27,30,36,44; 25:31-46; 26:64; Mark 8:38; 9:43-48; Luke 12:40,48; 16:19-26; 17:22-37; 21:27-28; John 14:1-3; Acts 1:11; 17:31; Romans 14:10; 1 Corinthians 4:5; 15:24-28,35-58; 2 Corinthians 5:10; Philippians 3:20-21; Colossians 1:5; 3:4; 1 Thessalonians 4:14-18; 5:1ff.; 2 Thessalonians 1:7ff.; 2; 1 Timothy 6:14; 2 Timothy 4:1,8; Titus 2:13; Hebrews 9:27-28; James 5:8; 2 Peter 3:7ff.; 1 John 2:28; 3:2; Jude 14; Revelation 1:18; 3:11; 20:1-22:13)
What is the church?
The Bible tells us that the church is the body of Christ in the world today. The New Testament tells us the church is a local body of baptized believers. The head of the church is Jesus Christ. The biblical purposes of the church are worship, evangelism, fellowship, discipleship and ministry to others. We state those purposes in a process in Saddleback’s Purpose Statement:
To bring people to Jesus and membership in His family, develop them to Christ-like maturity, and equip them for their ministry in the church and their life mission in the world, in order to magnify God’s name.
(Matthew 16:15-19; 18:15-20; Acts 2:41-42,47; 5:11-14; 6:3-6; 13:1-3; 14:23,27; 15:1-30; 16:5; 20:28; Romans 1:7; 1 Corinthians 1:2; 3:16; 5:4-5; 7:17; 9:13-14; 12; Ephesians 1:22-23; 2:19-22; 3:8-11,21; 5:22-32; Philippians 1:1; Colossians 1:18; 1 Timothy 2:9-14; 3:1-15; 4:14; Hebrews 11:39-40; 1 Peter 5:1-4; Revelation 2-3; 21:2-3)
What is the second coming of Jesus?
God, in His own time and in His own way, will bring the world to its appropriate end. According to His promise, Jesus Christ will return personally and visibly in glory to the earth; the dead will be raised; and Christ will judge all men in righteousness.
(Isaiah 2:4; 11:9; Matthew 16:27; 18:8-9; 19:28; 24:27,30,36,44; 25:31-46; 26:64; Mark 8:38; 9:43-48; Luke 12:40,48; 16:19-26; 17:22-37; 21:27-28; John 14:1-3; Acts 1:11; 17:31; Romans 14:10; 1 Corinthians 4:5; 15:24-28,35-58; 2 Corinthians 5:10; Philippians 3:20-21; Colossians 1:5; 3:4; 1 Thessalonians 4:14-18; 5:1ff.; 2 Thessalonians 1:7ff.; 2; 1 Timothy 6:14; 2 Timothy 4:1,8; Titus 2:13; Hebrews 9:27-28; James 5:8; 2 Peter 3:7ff.; 1 John 2:28; 3:2; Jude 14; Revelation 1:18; 3:11; 20:1-22:13)
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Bro. Greg
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It would appear you misunderstand the context of the scriptures you post Trafield.
quote:
The Holy Bible, King James Version
Acts 20:28 - Acts 20:32 (KJV) 28Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood. 29For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. 30Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them. 31Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears. 32And now, brethren, I commend you to God, and to the word of his grace, which is able to build you up, and to give you an inheritance among all them which are sanctified.
quote:
The Holy Bible, King James Version
1 Cor 5:9 - 1 Cor 5:13 (KJV) 9I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators: 10Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world. 11But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat. 12For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within? 13But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.
Trafield, these people that Paul was speaking about were people that, Stood up and proclaim, Hey, I am a Christian! Those are we to not even to eat with and put away from among us.
It is sad to see a brother or sister say, "Just because they are worshiping Budaah they are still a Christian! You must not judge them for their Idolatry! That is why folks are flocking by the thousands to this man's wicked teachings.
Just because a man says, I am a Christian doen't mean it is so! Adolf Hitler said he was a Christian as well, did that make him one?
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Isaiah 5:20(KJV) 20Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!
Bro. Greg
In and By His Grace
http://www.mychristiansite.com/ministries/pass_it_on
Posts: 527 | From: Montana, USA | Registered: Mar 2004
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Trafield
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quote:
If I remember right, Jesus was always getting on the Church leaders in his time. He wasn't very popular with them.
Jesus is God and Judge.
The Truth is never popular to those who refuse to hear it.
Keep in mind though, that it is Satan who is known as the great accuser.
He who has ears to hear, let him hear.
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ephesian
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If I remember right, Jesus was always getting on the Church leaders in his time. He wasn't very popular with them.
Posts: 21 | From: Alabama | Registered: Oct 2003
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Trafield
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quote:
If you are a watchman trafield...I suspect you had be blowing your horn on such things as SoftTouch has pointed to and stop defending the likes of the G12 movement. Unless of course you are a part of it! I will point blank ask you... Are you a part or are involved in the Government of 12 Movement and adhear to Warrens teachings and beliefs?
I am an unashamed workman for Jesus Christ.
You that ciriticize and condemn another for not following the scripture need to contend to the plank in your own eye. Then perhaps you will see that this divisive spirit you have is not of God, but of Satan. May the God of all creation testify to who is teaching with love and who is teaching with hate.
2 Timothy 2:8-26
8Remember Jesus Christ, risen from the dead, descendant of David, according to my gospel,
9for which I suffer hardship even to imprisonment as a criminal; but the word of God is not imprisoned.
10For this reason I endure all things for the sake of those who are chosen, so that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus and with it eternal glory.
11It is a trustworthy statement:
For if we died with Him, we will also live with Him;
12If we endure, we will also reign with Him;
If we deny Him, He also will deny us;
13If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself.
14Remind them of these things, and solemnly charge them in the presence of God not to wrangle about words, which is useless and leads to the ruin of the hearers.
15Be diligent to present yourself approved to God as a workman who does not need to be ashamed, accurately handling the word of truth.
16But avoid worldly and empty chatter, for it will lead to further ungodliness,
17and their talk will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus,
18men who have gone astray from the truth saying that the resurrection has already taken place, and they upset the faith of some.
19Nevertheless, the firm foundation of God stands, having this seal, “The Lord knows those who are His,” and, “Everyone who names the name of the Lord is to abstain from wickedness.”
20Now in a large house there are not only gold and silver vessels, but also vessels of wood and of earthenware, and some to honor and some to dishonor.
21Therefore, if anyone cleanses himself from these things, he will be a vessel for honor, sanctified, useful to the Master, prepared for every good work.
22Now flee from youthful lusts and pursue righteousness, faith, love and peace, with those who call on the Lord from a pure heart.
23But refuse foolish and ignorant speculations, knowing that they produce quarrels.
24The Lord’s bond-servant must not be quarrelsome, but be kind to all, able to teach, patient when wronged,
25with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition, if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth,
26and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, having been held captive by him to do his will.
Romans 14:1-10
1Now accept the one who is weak in faith, but not for the purpose of passing judgment on his opinions.
2One person has faith that he may eat all things, but he who is weak eats vegetables only.
3The one who eats is not to regard with contempt the one who does not eat, and the one who does not eat is not to judge the one who eats, for God has accepted him.
4Who are you to judge the servant of another? To his own master he stands or falls; and he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.
5One person regards one day above another, another regards every day alike. Each person must be fully convinced in his own mind.
6He who observes the day, observes it for the Lord, and he who eats, does so for the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who eats not, for the Lord he does not eat, and gives thanks to God.
7For not one of us lives for himself, and not one dies for himself;
8for if we live, we live for the Lord, or if we die, we die for the Lord; therefore whether we live or die, we are the Lord’s.
9For to this end Christ died and lived again, that He might be Lord both of the dead and of the living.
10But you, why do you judge your brother? Or you again, why do you regard your brother with contempt? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God.
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Bro. Greg
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Trafield,
It is very good to be about our Fathers business on this I agree! In our Fathers church there are many offices, each assigned to who is chosen for that position some teachers, some apostles, some preachers, etc. etc. If you are a watchman and you are set upon a hill top to watch and warn by blowing your trumpet you had better be blowing it loudly. The scriptures tell us that if the watchman sees the enemy coming and blows his trumpet and warns the people and they don't heed the warning and the enemy destroys them, their blood is on their own hands. If the watchman does not blow the trumpet warning the people and the enemy destroys them, their blood is on the watchmans hands because he did not warn them of the approaching enemy.
If you are a watchman trafield...I suspect you had be blowing your horn on such things as SoftTouch has pointed to and stop defending the likes of the G12 movement. Unless of course you are a part of it! I will point blank ask you... Are you a part or are involved in the Government of 12 Movement and adhear to Warrens teachings and beliefs?
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Isaiah 5:20(KJV) 20Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!
Bro. Greg
In and By His Grace
http://www.mychristiansite.com/ministries/pass_it_on
Posts: 527 | From: Montana, USA | Registered: Mar 2004
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Trafield
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And let me add that it is no wonder there will be perilous times in the last days. For the church is too busy accusing its own while the lost sinks further into the abyss.
God forgive us! ![[Prayer]](graemlins/prayer.gif)
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Trafield
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Softouch, we are the church and have Christ within us. His kingdom is within us. This article comes very close to denying the power of God. We have the power of the Holy Spirit. I believe as the world falls further away from God, that the true church will be filled with an increased power by the Holy Spirit. We are to watch for the Lord's return. The word "watch" is an action verb. It does mean to be passive and watch events unfold like a movie. It means to be about the Lord's business which is reching out to the lost and to bring them the knowledge of Jesus Christ. Again, this seems more like a demonic attack on a man trying to produce good fruit! Rick Warren may not beliieve we are int he last days, but again he is a Christian. Why are you persecuting him?
2 Timothy 3:1-5
1But realize this, that in the last days difficult times will come.
2For men will be lovers of self, lovers of money, boastful, arrogant, revilers, disobedient to parents, ungrateful, unholy,
3unloving, irreconcilable, malicious gossips, without self-control, brutal, haters of good,
4treacherous, reckless, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God,
5holding to a form of godliness, although they have denied its power; Avoid such men as these.
Luke 17:20-21
20And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: 21Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.
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Bro. Greg
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Looks like you got busy SoftTouch! Thanks for the posts! I hope all will investigate this and see it as the Anti-Christ movement it is! As I said before,
RUN BROTHERS AND SISTERS! HE WALKS TO AN FRO SEEKING WHOM HE MAY DEVOUR!
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Isaiah 5:20(KJV) 20Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!
Bro. Greg
In and By His Grace
http://www.mychristiansite.com/ministries/pass_it_on
Posts: 527 | From: Montana, USA | Registered: Mar 2004
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SoftTouch
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Just Who IS Rick Warren and What does he Believe?" I think it prudent to examine his connections and associates to get a better picture of just where this man is coming from...
http://www.letusreason.org/Popteac23.htm
Rick Warren’s Community Connections
You can tell what someone stands for by whom they affiliate with and what they have to say about certain people and their teachings. You can also tell what someone believes by those who endorse their message and method. We need to take a careful look at Rick Warren’s background, associations and comments, as well as others about him. This is somewhat lengthy and one needs to read through this whole article to understand what is at work here and what has formulated his model for doing church.
Rick Warren has doctorate degree from Fuller Theological Seminary. Fuller endorses Warren on their website “Rick Warren, Fuller alumnus and pastor of Saddleback Church, is now publishing “Rick Warren’s Ministry Toolbox” (http://www.fuller.edu/alumni_ae/E-News/2001-05/bulletinboard.asp)
Ministry Advantage at Fuller features articles from various “Christian leaders” Warren is listed among others like Ted Haggard, Jack Hayford, Bill Hybels, Peter Wagner, John Wimber etc. (http://www.fuller.edu/cll/ce/ma_writers.html)
All this means Fuller sees him as being in agreement with what these men and they are teaching. Peter Wagner who taught at Fuller optimized his vision of church growth with executing a new Church government, ie. new apostles and prophets laying a new foundation for today (ICA).
Rick Warren is a member of the American Society For Church Growth (ASCG) which is located at Fuller Theological Seminary. http://www.ascg.org/links.htm Saddleback Valley Community Church.
Rick Warren, Founding Pastor (ASCG member at large) is found alongside many names, including Global Harvest Ministries of C. Peter Wagner, Founder, President (the ASCG Founding President); The World Prayer Center C. Peter Wagner, Co-founder (ASCG Founding President).
“Saddleback Community Church senior pastor Rick Warren is on Mission America's Facilitation Committee [http://www.missionamerica.org/leaders.html 1997].
A person does not become part of a board unless they are in agreement with those people’s doctrines and philosophy of ministry that are part of the board.
Community Full Gospel Church has Satellite Seminars via live, interactive satellite broadcasts. This takes place with the Church Communications Network; Injoy; and Saddleback Church, Community Church is a host site for unique seminars and top speakers from around the country on a monthly basis.
For minimum cost and maximum convenience residents from the area can hear, learn and interact with speakers such as John Maxwell, Rick Warren, C. Peter Wagner, George Barna, Carl George and Ted Haggard. Seminar topics range from Marriage Secrets to Successful Leadership to Understanding the New Senior Adult. (http://www.church4you.org/About_Us/ministries.htm)
You will notice the same people seem to be congregated together, which means they are in agreement.
Warren commenting on John Wimbers death: “I will remember John Wimber as a man who truly loved Jesus more than anything else. I always enjoyed our conversations because that love for Christ produced an uncommon passion in his life that was contagious. I will miss that. A hundred years from today, people will still be singing “Spirit Song” because it verbalizes that deep love for Jesus.” http://www.crvineyard.org/WhoAreThesePeople/History/WIMBER2.htm
Its good to be respectful and encouraging when there is a loss like this, however, to be so flattering brings to question what he really believes about the Vineyard movement that launched the prophet and apostle movement and the Toronto disaster and so many other aberrations. John Wimber’s connection with Peter Wagner is well established; Wagner is now in the saddle with the prophet apostle movement that begun with Wimber.
Warren does not have any qualms who he shares the platform with as long as he can give his message. I have no problem with people who use an opportunity to help correct those who are aberrant, I do think there is a problem when they keep silent and collaborate with them. Ones affiliation tells us a great deal about what they believe.
Warren was a key speaker at Yongi Cho’s church growth conference in 1997. Cho is known to mix occult concepts with Christian teaching. He is especially known for his word faith /visualization techniques. Warren was also a key speaker at Schuller's Institute for Successful Church Leadership.
David Cho’s connection to Robert Schuller is evident. Robert Schuller writes in the foreword to Yonggi Cho's book, The Fourth Dimension: “I discovered the reality of that dynamic dimension in prayer that comes through visualizing.... Don't try to understand it. Just start to enjoy it! It's true. It works. I tried it.”
Cho promoting mysticism is an understatement, he says if Buddhists and Yoga practitioners can accomplish their objectives through fourth dimensional powers, then Christians should be able to accomplish much more by using the same means. (Paul Yonggi Cho, The Fourth Dimension, vol. 1, 1979, pp.37, 41) “You create the presence of Jesus with your mouth... He is bound by your lips and by your words... Remember that Christ is depending upon you and your spoken word to release His presence.” (Ibid., 83)
In Warrens an interview with Cho we can see his respect for him. --Warren: Do you think American churches should be more open to the prayer for miracles?
Cho: I feel that the most American churches really don't believe in the miracles of God. The church is getting very institutionalized. But I tell you that by a new anointing the American church would start to believe the miracle of the nation of God's hand.”
Warren: Can you please pray a prayer of blessing to the pastors that are reading this? (Rick Warren And David Yonggi Cho Talk About Using The Internet
by Tim Bednar July 25, 2003) (http://www.e-church.com/Blog-detail.asp?EntryID=301&BloggerID=1)
Warren spoke at The Robert Schuller Institute for Successful Church Leadership with Wimber, Hybels and others WIMBER, HYBELS SPEAK AT SCHULLER EVENT Listed faculty for, Jan.27-30,at Crystal Cathedral campus included: Schuller, John Wimber (Vineyard “signs and wonders” guru), Bill Hybels, Charles Blake (Church of God),Walt Kallestad, John Maxwell, and Rick Warren. Ken Medema was at piano (9/16 Christianity Today). Hybels, Wimber, and David Cho were 1994 speakers. Tony Campolo and Jack Hayford were listed as 1995 speakers. (http://home.hiwaay.net/~contendr/3-15-97.html)
In 1997 “More than 80 gay and lesbian pastors and lay leaders from the Metropolitan Community Churches participated in this year's Robert Schuller Institute for Successful Church Leadership at Schuller's Crystal Cathedral. The speakers included Bill Hybels, John Maxwell and Rick Warren.” http://www.llano.net/baptist/schullern&v.htm
Warren will often make statements that can be questionable and even revealing. In a closing prayer at one of his seeker-sensitive church growth seminars, he declared, “Thank you that there is a movement, a stealth movement, that's flying beneath the radar, that's changing literally hundreds, even thousands of churches around the world.” (http://hometown.aol.com/delusionapostasy/myhomepage/millennium.html).
He’s talking about the church growth movement that he is spearheading. I wonder whose radar it would be flying under and why it needs to do this to get to its destination? Well it’s in the open now.
Besides Robert Schuller Rick Warrens connection to management and market guru Peter Drucker has been the impetus for the new model of doing church. Warren says, “I read everything Peter Drucker writes. His book “The Effective Executive" is a favourite I re-read every year. Long before words like “empowerment” became popular, Peter was telling us that the secret of achieving results is to focus on your strengths, and the strengths of those you work with, rather than focusing on weaknesses. In fact, Peter says, making strengths productive is the unique purpose of organisation.
“… find out what others do well and help them to be able to do more of it. This is the key to effective businesses, effective churches, and every other effective organisation. Great organisations position people for success rather than trying to eliminate all their weaknesses. It's far easier to manage weaknesses than to eliminate all of them.” (BUILDING ON YOUR STRENGTHS - By Rick Warren) http://www.jobsnorthwest.com/Stories/Story_970901.htm http://www.wpbc.org.nz/Monthly/June/page3.html
Consider that by Warrens admission he is getting his influence, and inspiration from the world should be a red light for those who want to uphold and practice biblical truth. Empowerment is a word used by the new agers for self - authority.
Herein lies the greatest flaw to this church model that is being implemented. It is unbiblical to focus on strengths and manage weaknesses. This becomes the main difference between how the Church is run and the world is run. Paul said when I’m weak I am strong (because of God's power used in a weak person). (2 Cor.12:10). In fact if one cannot see their own bankruptcy their is no power of God available to them. Mans main weakness is Man relying on his own strength and natural abilities. Mans strengths are mans hindrances to God. God uses us beyond our capabilities that are inherent to the natural man.
Almost everyone in the Bible was used in their weakness not in their strength. Moses said he couldn’t speak, God said he would be with him. He was brought up in all the education of Egypt but God didn’t use him because of this. Peter was appointed to lead and feed the sheep though he was brash, weak in faith and denied the Lord three times. Gideon’s army was whittled down from a mighty number to a smaller one. God's way is opposite of mans.1 Cor. 1:27 “God has chosen the weak things of the world to put to shame the things which are mighty” God uses the weak, the lesser to receive glory lest man thinks it is his own ability that made it happen. (even God given natural ability). To manage weaknesses and let the strong shine is not how God works. Paul writes to the church to “comfort the fainthearted, uphold the weak, be patient with all.” (1Thess. 5:14) This is the churches model, to honor the weaker, not only use the strong.
Drucker began teaching large corporations years ago and is famous being a visionary in management, marketing and communication skills. He believes that “The social universe has no “natural laws” as the physical sciences do. It is thus subject to continuous change” (Oct. 1998 issue of Forbes Magazine p. 154). If I understand him correctly this means no absolutes.
Christianity Today observed “Drucker is a Christian a practicing Episcopalian, but from his a writings it would be hard to say much more than this about his faith... Drucker’s writings seem to determined to keep his faith a secondary characteristic for his readers.” (Christianity Today)
“In 1991 Drucker told an audience of church leaders that American churches are in the midst of a remarkable renaissance. “This, to my mind, for my lifetime, is the greatest, the most important, the most momentous event, and the turning point not just in churches but perhaps in the human spirit altogether.” (The Business of the Kingdom Management guru Peter Drucker thinks the future of America is in the hands of churches By Tim Stafford http://www.beliefnet.com/story/15/story_1528_1.html
Why does he say this? Because he says the church is changing. These new methods have worked well for communities, governments and corporations, and now churches. Because of its success many are eagerly embracing Drucker's model of marketing through Warren to do church.
After giving a set of goals for the Church, (The mission, the value, Management, teamwork) Drucker says, The three most important questions are “What is our business?” “Who is our customer?” and “What does the customer consider value?” (Important Lessons from Peter Drucker http://www.changingchurch.org/perspec/vol24/druck.htm)
Warren describes his church in many ways, one of them is that “Saddleback is kind of the Research and Development department of the church at large. We're not afraid to fail. We've always tried more things that didn't work than did. Every once in a while we find - usually by accident-something that works. Then we teach the seminars and pretend like we planned it all along, when really it was just the result of trial and error. (Laughter) - Rick Warren, http://www.christianity.net/leadership/7L3/7L3022.html
This sounds like John Wimber’s philosophy without the experiential. One has to take a step back and ask what are they doing? Is the Church supposed to be experimental? The reason experiments fail is because he is trying to implement a new way of doing things and it is not based on the sure word of God that will always work. Of course we don’t want to be so rigid that we have no flexibility in ministry but this is not what is being pursued. We should base our church on what is tried and true in the word. These are people’s lives and there is no room to experiment at their expense. People can be hurt as well as be helped. Once they find something works it is incorporated in the service. This is practicing pragmatism; advertising agencies use this concept for their products to see a positive reaction. When it is successful they begin it as a program and schedule it for the people coming in, everything goes like clockwork. Pragmatism does work but does it last and is it a work that God will accept? We need to honestly ask ourselves this question. A pragmatic approach may world well in the world, in business and even education but the church and our spiritual life is not to be ruled by this concept.
Warren’s affiliation with those in the new apostolic movement of Peter Wagner is evident by those he speaks with as well as their approval of what he is doing.
Cannistraci is co-pastor of Evangel Christian Fellowship, a new apostolic church in San Jose, California. He believes in the fivefold ministry for today and says in his interview with NEXT: “Of all the elements that comprise being apostolic, what’s the core, the nonnegotiable? Cannistraci: I would have to say intimacy with God because for me, all ministry springs from hearing God. Maybe the essence of being apostolic is getting out of the bunker and going for it...crossing a boundary to establish the Kingdom...not being content with where we are.” “ Bill Hybels and Rick Warren and all these guys...they’re all kind of like me, but they’re all quite different ...yet we’re all part of this big cutting edge that is the Church. It’s a movement of God...nobody’s going to be able to name it. It is what God is doing now and it’s so big that we can’t claim it” http://www.leadnet.org/allthingsln/archives/NEXT/january99.pdf
Notice that apostolic is based on hearing from God, which every believer can do through his word; but this is not what many mean in the new apostolic movement, what they mean is a fresh word of God for the direction of the church that is not from the Scripture.
Wagner says, “At New Life Church and Saddleback, the organization is pared to empower leaders. It is developed on the basis of trust in the grace of God at work through individuals that God calls to leadership. C. Peter Wagner notes that the most revolutionary principle in the churches that are driving the expansion of Christianity is the trust and empowerment of the individual. He puts it this way: Of all the radical elements of change in the New Apostolic Reformation, I regard one of them to be the most radical of all. It is so important that I have chosen these words very carefully: The amount of spiritual authority delegated by the Holy Spirit to the individuals. (Wagner, Churchquake, 75.) (http://www.bethanyum.com/thesis/chapter7.pdf)
Rick Warren's “Purpose Driven Church” book is on the supplemental reading list at Wagner Leadership Institute in Pastoral Ministries. A five-point strategy for attracting and spiritually maturing the unchurched, from the pastor of Saddleback Church (http://www.wagnerleadership.org/pdffiles/pastoral_reading_list.PDF)
Warren has also endorsed some things that are more than questionable but should be avoided.
Warren endorsed “An Unstopable Force” by Erwin Raphael Mcmanus “I love this book because Erwin loves the church. Growing churches requires growing leaders. This book will help you along the way.” Rick Warren Lead Pastor, Saddleback Church, Author, The Purpose Driven Church
On McManus’ web site (http://www.anunstoppableforce.com/) Awakening an Apostolic Ethos with Erwin McManus, Lead Pastor, Mosaic, Los Angeles “McManus offers a vision of the church taking its rightful place as an unstoppable force created to change the world . . . a church that is active and engaged with its community An apostolic ethos is the key to a New Testament movement … To lead a church with movement requires the ability to create and shape ethos… Erwin declares, “When we awaken the apostolic ethos, the heart of God begins to pulsate through the church of Jesus Christ.”
Consider that ethos means culture, they are wanting to change the culture, something Jesus NEVER told us to do. He said his kingdom is not of this world. We are supposed to be preparing people for the kingdom in the next. (This book has and new apostolic and Dominionist view)
Rick Warren has also endorsed Alpha course as something that goes well with his seeker friendly model. Alpha course is an offshoot of the Toronto blessing. “It’s great to see how Alpha has been used to reach people with the good news of Jesus Christ, who wouldn’t normally come to church. This resource is very complementary to helping seekers connect with The Purpose Driven Life” (http://www.resourcefoundation.org/Current/Alpha/endors.shtml) For more on alpha read http://www.understandthetimes.org/c15.shtml
Warren also quotes in The Purpose Driven Life on p.103 Gary Thomas’ book Sacred Pathways. The subtitle is “Discover Your Soul’s Path to God.” Warren writes, “In his book, Sacred Pathways, Gary identifies nine of the ways people draw near to God: Naturalists are most inspired to love God out-of-doors, in natural settings. Sensates love God with their senses and appreciate beautiful worship services that involve their sight, taste, smell, and touch, not just their ears. Traditionalists draw closer to God through rituals, liturgies, symbols, and unchanging structures. Ascetics prefer to love God in solitude and simplicity. Activists love God through confronting evil, battling injustice, and working to make the world a better place. Caregivers love God by loving others and meeting their needs. Enthusiasts love God through celebrations. Contemplatives love through adoration. Intellectuals love God by studying with their minds” (Sacred Pathways, by Gary Thomas, pp. 22-29.)
In Gary’s book Sacred Pathways, He quotes Carl Jung favorably “Carl Jung developed four profiles to describe human nature…. Combinations of these four profiles can create sixteen different personality types, and the Myers Briggs test is designed to separate these types” (Sacred Pathways, by Gary Thomas, p. 21.) Psychologist Carl Jung is not a good source for any Christian to turn to as he received his information from a “spirit guide” named Philemon. During Jung’s traumatic breakdown, on the brink of suicide “Philemon” became his “spirit guide, Jung says “Philemon represented a force which was not myself … It was he who taught me psychic objectivity, the reality of the psyche.”
In Sacred Pathways pp.184-5,6 Thomas where he suggests the use of “Dancing Prayer”, not bodily movements, but we are to image in our minds dancing with God and allowing Him to lead. Then He gives instructions on “Centering Prayer.” Quote: “Choose a word (Jesus or Father, for example) as a focus for contemplative prayer. Repeat the word silently in your mind for a set amount of time (say, twenty minutes) until your heart seems to be repeating the word by itself, just as naturally and involuntarily as breathing But centering prayer is a contemplative act in which you don't do anything; you're simply resting in the presence of God.”
Clearly a mystical approach not a Biblical one. This repeating words is what is called a mantra, it does not matter if one uses a Biblical name or word. We are not to be combining eastern mysticism with our practice of Christianity. Warren also mentions contemplative prayer in his book without defining it.
On his website “My wife, Kay, recommends this book! In it, Nouwen divides the life of ministry into five categories: teaching, preaching, pastoral care, organizing, and celebrating” Sabbatical Journey Creative Ministry (Doubleday, 1991).
Warrens endorsement of Nouwen’s book is concerning, as Nouwen united other religions with Christianity. As Ray Youngen points out Nouwen's endorsement of a book by Hindu spiritual teacher Eknath Easwaran, teaching mantra meditation, further illustrates his universalist views. On the back cover, Nouwen stated: “This book has helped me a great deal.”
Nouwen wrote “Today I personally believe that while Jesus came to open the door to God's house, all human beings can walk through that door, whether they know about Jesus or not. Today I see it as my call to help every person claim his or her own way to God” (Henri Nouwen's last book p.51 Sabbatical Journey Crossroad publishing Co., New York,1998 Quoted in a Time of Departing by Ray Youngen )
Clearly this is a universalist view promoting an interfaith message, which is becoming popular today.
“Nouwen also wrote the forward to a book that mixes Christianity with Hindu spirituality, “...the author shows a wonderful openness to the gifts of Buddhism, Hinduism and Moslem religion. He discovers their great wisdom for the spiritual life of the Christian .... Ryan [the author] went to India to learn from spiritual traditions other than his own. He brought home many treasures and offers them to us in the book.” (Thomas Ryan Disciplines for Christian Living, Paulist press, Mawah, N.J., 1993 pp.2-3 Quoted in a Time of Departing by Ray Youngen)
We can see how each connection influences another. Nouwen promoted “Thomas Merton was perhaps the greatest popularizer of interspirituality. He opened the door for Christians to explore other traditions, notably Taoism (Chinese witchcraft), Hinduism and Buddhism.” [Mystic Heart: Discovering a Universal Spirituality in the World's Religions - Wayne Teasdale] Thomas Merton said he wanted “to become as good a Buddhist as I can” (Steindl-Rast, 1969).
Interfaith is the message. Merton wanted to see the religions of the world be in unity. Because of this influence Nouwen was able to say “a place for everyone in heaven” (Henri Nouwen, Life of the Beloved, p. 53).
With a book like Nouwen’s openly being promoted by Warren one can only wonder what other writers have influenced his church model and philosophy (Robert Schuller included).
Although not every book Warren quotes from is detrimental, yet Warren’s wide use of quotes from others books (mystics and Catholics) certainly lacks perspicacity. He quotes in The Purpose Driven life on p.108 a seemingly innocuous statement of Floyd McClung - who is involved with the 3rd wave Movement and now pastors Mike Bickle’s church (one of the prophets that was in the Vineyard under the Kansas city prophets -now is affiliated as a prophet with Peter Wagner’s Apostolic Movement).
He also quotes Mother Theresa. Without any mention of her being a Roman Catholic humanitarian. He quotes her on p.125 “Its not what you do, but how much love you put into it that matters.” This is a false premise, many people put love into what they do and it could be false; what you do does matter. Mother Theresa was a wonderful humanitarian who could have represented any religion. She made people of other religions who were dying comfortable on their deathbed and had them to pray to their own gods. Mother Teresa said: “If in coming face to face with God we accept Him in our lives, then we are converting. We become a better Hindu, a better Muslim, a better Catholic, a better whatever we are. ... What God is in your mind you must accept” (from Mother Teresa: Her People and Her Work, by Desmond Doig, p. 156). her false gospel said 'there are many ways to God': “All is God--Buddists, Hindus, Christians, etc., all have access to the same God.” (12/4/89 Time, pp. 11,13)
This is not a good role model for representing Christian teaching, she did not believe there was any one faith acceptable to God, but many. Warren’s wide use of people he quotes shows a tremendous lack of discernment and definitely brings up a concern about what he really believes. In The Purpose Driven Life Appendix 3, p. 326 we find that Warren quotes from the Catholic Bible translation in the text of this book.
On p.193 (day 25) Warren quotes a neutral statement by Madame Guyon “It is the fire of suffering that brings forth the gold of godliness.” On his website he promotes the book “Deeper Experiences of Famous Christians” saying This is an anointed little book that reports on the deeper life experiences of Christians such as D.L. Moody, John Bunyan, Madame Guyon, John Wesley, and many others. While these other men are respected Guyon is not. Madame Guyon was a Roman Catholic mystic who lived during the 17th and 18th century that was a promoter of “quietism,” which involved becoming so passive that you become indifferent to everything. This was an extreme form of Roman Catholic mysticism that emphasized the cleansing of one’s inner life and included the belief that one could see Christ visibly.
Misinterpreting Jesus words in Luke 17:21 she began her lifelong journey within. She responded to the Lord, “Thou wast in my heart, and demanded only a simple turning of my mind inward, to make me perceive Thy presence. ... The kingdom of God is within you.”
Madame Guyon said that she had reached the point where she was no longer capable of sinning. She said that ”sin involves self, and she had become free of self. Therefore, she could no longer sin. ” she and La Combe could communicate for hours without words in some kind of strange telepathy. She asserted they could read each others hearts. (Guyon pp. 286-287) That her trance states, which left her unable to speak for days, were good and godly (pg. 281). That she had written under the direct inspiration of God, often not even being aware of what she was writing. She claimed to have found within herself, “latent treasures of wisdom and knowledge.” (pp. 321-322). She said her writings were spirit-dictated (Ibid., pg. 324). Evelyn Underhill, herself a promoter of mysticism and myths, refers to Guyon as a “medium” exhibiting clairvoyance, prophecy, telepathy, and automatic writing in bewildering profusion. Evelyn Underhill, Mysticism, 1990, p. 295 (referenced from PFO in the Quarterly Journal article- THE MINDLESS MYSTICISM OF MADAME GUYON Countering the Myth of Intermittent Deification and Sinless Perfection by G. Richard Fisher)
Again there is little discretion who Warren promotes and quotes from, and there seems to be a reason for this, Warren’s openness is not just in books but found in the philosophy of ministry practiced in his own church. In a recent USA article that is posted on Warrens website it was reported “…Warren's pastor-training programs welcome Catholics, Methodists, Mormons, Jews and ordained women. “I'm not going to get into a debate over the non-essentials. I won't try to change other denominations. Why be divisive?” (“This evangelist has a 'Purpose”, by Cathy Lynn Grossman, USA TODAY, 7/21/2003) (http://www.usatoday.com/life/2003-07-21-rick-warren_x.htm)
On page161 in the Purpose Driven Life Warren writes: “God wants unity, not uniformity. But for unity’s sake we must never let differences divide us.”
Some differences are divisive. Is unity more important than truth? This is the seeker friendly model at work, Schullerism shining through its convert Warren. Are not the differences we have with Mormons, Catholics and even Jews essential? Would the apostles be divisive on these differences or would they ignore then as Warren is practicing? This is nothing short than compromise, and a sad day for the Christian faith when someone who is supposed to be a well-known evangelical influence is allowed to do this. When the differences in our gospel and theirs are non - essential it is the end of the road for Biblical truth being proclaimed. If we don’t divide over these differences then there really is nothing else important to divide over and we have begun interfaith. The gospel and Jesus as the only way is divisive (Gal.1:6-9).
Inspiration from Schuller and Drucker and others cannot be thought of as good sources for ones spiritual development or for a Church. While people are eating up what is presented in Warrens book’s: The Purpose Driven Church and The Purpose Driven Life, there is much more to Warrens philosophy than meets the eye.
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Psalm 119:104Through thy precepts I get understanding: therefore I hate every false way. 105Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.
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Now I know (before I even post this) that there will be some who will disagree with these statements and say 'what's wrong with this?' But I hope you'll prayerfully consider what this article is saying. The problem is, Warrens 'plan' does not follow what the Bible says is to happen...
http://www.letusreason.org/Popteac26.htm
A GLOBAL PEACE PLAN
Rick Warren recently sent out an info letter which he names the Peace Plan (posted on his site) www.saddleback.com/peaceplan
(All Quotes of Rick Warren are in Italics)
He is calling it “the most important series of messages we've ever taught in 23 years here at Saddleback church” He says “We believe it is part of the beginning of a Spiritual Awakening, a Global Movement, a New Reformation.”
This is nice to let us know a new reformation has begun under him, unfortunately these terms are already being used by the apostle/ prophet movement under Wagner. And there are some similarities ….
November had five messages on the P.E.A.C.E. plan: a strategy to have every small group in our church, and then tens of thousands of small groups in other churches, become engaged in solving the five biggest problems in the world: Spiritual Lostness, Lack of Godly Leaders, Poverty, Disease, and Lack of Education.
This is a noble gesture but unrealistic.
Warren is talking about the church changing the world.
It shows lack of bible knowledge to claim such things. Jesus said that the end would bring an increase in turmoil, wars and specifically diseases. Don’t get me wrong; humanitarian efforts are useful and needed. Christians are to help in various ways but this is not our specific mission to solve poverty or disease. Of course if people are starving they cannot listen to a spiritual message about their soul to well. We should be there for catastrophes such as earthquakes and floods... What of the poverty in the church, are we to feed the world and not the brethren? Isn’t this what Jesus said to do in Mt.25. Unfortunately Mt. 25 is often used for a general humanitarian effort of the church. In its primary meaning taking care of the brethren means to care for Christians that are homeless or in jail; (inasmuch as you did it to the least of the My brethren, you did it to me), in a wider application it has to do with the Jews and believers in the tribulation. This cannot be applied to the nations and people who are unsaved by the context and the meaning of the word brethren.
But to say we was the church will solve these matters is absurd. There will be no starvation, poverty, disease or death when the Kingdom of God is here, which means Jesus will be present, but not before. Anyone who promises to solve these problems is gravely mistaken. Matt. 10:34 “Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. (Luke 12:51)
Lack of Godly Leaders- The world does not need to be corrected the church does, the world does not care for godly leaders, they are unsaved.
Bible education, or just education? On the web in his message they are talking about education for third world countries.
This sounds like is some type of dominionism view. What happened to what Jesus said the end would be like? He never said these things would be solved. Imposters would grow worse, the poor we would have with us always. Diseases would increase. Does Warren not believe we are seeing these things today?
1 Thess. 5:3 “For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape”
There will be no REAL peace until the prince of peace comes, until then there will be a false peace and a false security. (which Warren does acknowledge).
This is what is coming… Revelation 6:2-8 “And I looked, and behold, a white horse. He who sat on it had a bow; and a crown was given to him, and he went out conquering and to conquer. When He opened the second seal, I heard the second living creature saying, “Come and see.” Another horse, fiery red, went out. And it was granted to the one who sat on it to take peace from the earth, and that people should kill one another; and there was given to him a great sword. When He opened the third seal, I heard the third living creature say, “Come and see.” So I looked, and behold, a black horse, and he who sat on it had a pair of scales in his hand. And I heard a voice in the midst of the four living creatures saying, “A quart of wheat for a denarius, and three quarts of barley for a denarius; and do not harm the oil and the wine.” When He opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth living creature saying, “Come and see.” So I looked, and behold, a pale horse. And the name of him who sat on it was Death, and Hades followed with him. And power was given to them over a fourth of the earth, to kill with sword, with hunger, with death, and by the beasts of the earth.”
These giant problems are so big that neither the governmnent, nor all the NGOs (non-government organzations) can tackle them. There is only one group large enough to tackle these global issues- the Christian church in all its local expressions around the world.
Nothing else can compare to the distribution channel of the millions of churches around the world. Even in villages where you cannot find a clinic, a store, a school, or a post office, you can often find a church.
These problems, and the answers, are not new. But the way we intend to tackle them using the small groups of local churches in large numbers is revolutionary.
What does Warren think we have been doing? many have already been doing this. There have been many organizations and churches, missions abroad who are actively involved in this for years. This is not something new this is something churches have been doing all over the world. Although his proposal seems to take this into a worldwide scale that certainly is unprecedented it also has him as the head of it
The only difference in his plan is that it will no longer be autonomous but unified under his leadership? So why does everyone need to unite With Warrens group and come under his leadership?
“… and we've sought the advice of respected national Christian leaders around the world. We have “tweaked” the plans often, and will continue to do so as we “learn by doing.” Now we're ready to share the plan with our congregation, friends, and other interested congregations across America.
The bottom line is that we intend to reinvent mission strategy in the 21st century. As I stated, this will be a new Reformation. The First Reformation returned us to the message of the original church. It was a reformation of doctrine - what the church BELIEVES. This Second Reformation will return us to the mission of the original church. It will be a reformation of purpose- what the church DOES in the world.
“Reinvent mission strategy in the 21st century”! This sounds too similar to statements of Peter Wagner who was also part of Fuller and promoted the church growth movement. Warren is on the same mission board and graduated from the same seminary, could it be some of these things have rubbed off and had an influence?
Can you start a reformation on works when so many today neglect doctrine? It would be better to uphold the first reformation before one starts another based on our works. Any religion can do works; in fact atheists can be involved in almost all the things mentioned except “Spiritual lostness.” I can’t see the validity of his statement. Terms like spiritual lostness seem to water down the meaning of being unsaved. This can mean something different to anyone. The Bible puts mankind into two groups, saved and unsaved. Is this the type of reformation we will see in action, a change of terms to soften the word of God? Is this what we need at a time when the church is leaving the doctrines of Scripture. We need a new reformation of going back to the basis of the first reformation, not world outreaches
In the first century, mission strategy was always congregationally based. The first missionaries were sent, supported, and accountable to local churches. The church at Antioch was the first to do this. There were no mission societies, mission boards, or parachurch organizations. Local churches accepted the responsibility for Jesus' Great Commission and his Great Commandment, and the growth of the church worldwide was explosive.
Yes and there were no church buildings or mega churches either, but house churches. I’m all for the local churches stepping up their missionary efforts but Warren’s plan is not the answer.
Today, most local churches are sidelined and uninvolved when it comes to missions. The message from most mission and parachurch organizations to the local church is essentially “Pray, pay, and get out of the way.” But in the 21st century, Kay and I intends to help thousands of other local churches to move back to the frontline in missions, in compassion, and in providing the social services that historically the church provided. I believe the proper role for all the great parachurch and relief organizations is to serve local churches in a supportive role, offering their expertise and knowledge, but allowing the local churches around the world to be central focus and the distribution centers.
True there may not be as many churches involved in serious mission work but this does not mean that what has been done is to be ignored. I have never heard any para-church organization say this? Maybe there is one but not most. This is a straw man argument. Warren seems to believe he and his wife are going to spearhead a new campaign in mission work. And if these churches are all under their care it will succeed where we have not before. Who is going to be the head of these distribution centers?
I deeply believe that any organization that marginalized or minimizes the local congregation's responsibility to “Go”, or bypasses the local church's moral authority to fulfill the Great Commission, is out of sync with the strategy God intended, and modeled in the book of Acts.
The great commission involves an outreach to the unsaved but its focus on those who are saved is to be taught, discipled, the church is lacking in this as well. What if local churches do not want to get behind people going into certain areas, isn’t this why there are separate missions and para-church organizations to go there?
*Let me pause here and go into the first video that he recommends people to watch on this matter.
Warren says “What are we going to do now, we’re going global, its time to bless the whole world
“If we can figure out a way to attack the 5 giants it would bring glory to God.”
His wife is brought up to explain the 5 points. The number 2 point was servant leaders, referring to secular leaders in the world saying, leaders are serving themselves. Of course they are serving themselves, they don’t know God, why should they serve others in a Christian manner. One cannot be a servant like this unless they are born again.
Number 4 was disease. Ps. 38:3 was used “There is no soundness in my flesh because of Your anger, nor any health in my bones because of my sin.” This too was used out of context for those who are stricken with sickness and disease.
Number 5 was ignorance, speaking about the third world and the need for schools. Hosea 4:6 is quoted. “My people perish for a lack of knowledge.” This has nothing to do with the world but God’s people having a lack of Bible knowledge which is displayed here represented by some of the interpretations of the quotes and the whole peace plan.
As Rick Warren continues he said “we are part of the only group capable to take care of these problems…. There is only one organization big enough to tackle the problem, the local church. It is because we have the biggest army of volunteers, millions and we have the moral authority to do it.”
This may be true but he seems to be automatically soliciting and volunteering the church for his way of doing things. Warren is giving the church a new blueprint for how to reach out to the world.
He also said we will experiment work out all the bugs in it (just as he did with the Purpose Driven Church).
Warren went on and gave insight into his end times view. “If Jesus Christ does not come back a thousand years from today there will be no organizations or government… there will be a Church.”
How does he know there will be no organizations or government? Of course there will be a Church, Jesus said the gates of hell would not prevail. I don’t think the way things are going we will need to wait 1,000 years to find out.
”What is the second coming of Jesus? God, in His own time and in His own way, will bring the world to its appropriate end. According to His promise, Jesus Christ will return personally and visibly in glory to the earth; the dead will be raised; and Christ will judge all men in righteousness.” http://www.saddleback.com/flash/believe2.html
This avoids a crucial point that is part of the resurrection; the rapture. From What I have read Warren does not mention it at all. This would fit in with the new reformation concepts that he himself mentioned and others also hold.
Warren writes “In John 14, Jesus said it like this, “Let not your heart be troubled. You believe in God, believe also in Me. In My Father's house are many mansions. If it were not so I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you unto myself that where I am there you may be also.” Jesus said, “I'm going back to heaven and if I go, I'm going to prepare a place and I'm coming back.”
Did He go? Yes he did. Is He coming back? Absolutely. As surely as He said He was going, He's coming back. The Bible says that when He comes back, He will set up a reign of peace on the earth.”
This avoids a crucial point that is part of the resurrection, the rapture, Jesus actually said I will come again and receive you unto myself that where I am there you may be also. Jesus prepared this place in heaven where he is. From What I have read Warren does not mention the rapture at all, maybe he does believe this but it’s missing.
This would fit in with the new reformation concepts of dominionism that he himself mentions in this article on his peace plan and others hold.
People ask me why I don't preach more on prophecy. I say, “Why? Nobody knows” I could get up here and make some good guesses but they'd all be speculation. Jesus said, “Nobody knows when it's going to happen.”
Warren says that he does not pay attention to prophecy. We are not just talking about Jesus’ coming in reference to a time. Prophecy does not have to be speculation. One quarter to one third of the pages of the Bible are on prophecy, this is part of preaching the whole counsel of God. He stays away from prophecy. Why? Because it has a negative impact especially on the end times we live in and does not fit well into a seeker friendly model for church.
Both Jesus (Mt.24) and Paul said we need to know prophecy so we will not be deceived.2 Thess.2:1-10.
“if you want the Lord to come back soon, it's simple. Get out and start sharing your faith. Every time you tell somebody about Christ you're shortening the time. Every time you share the gospel with somebody it means it's getting shorter.” (quotes from When it is right to fight article on website )
In his book (PDL) he writes “If you want Jesus to come back sooner focus on fulfilling your mission, not figuring out prophecy” (p.286)
I don’t think there any proof we actually make the time shorter by our witnessing more?
Warren ends his letter by telling us about the amazing success of his book, hitting 10 milion (sic) copies, 5 ,000 more churches are doing the 40 Day of Purpose campaign, In 2004 we expect over 15,000 more churches to participate. How he gets requests for autographed copies for famous people, even Castro, presidents, and air force one. the program has been adopted by corporations, His interviews on TV telling us that this spiritual awakening is starting to get the attention of the media.
I now believe that know why God is blessing this book in such an unusual way. It is more than just a message that God wants to get out to everyone (which is huge). I now also see that God is using this phenomena to expand the platform for us to mobilize thousands of local churches for global world missions through the PEACE plan.
“But all this is not about us. God's intention is much bigger than the book. It's all about the global glory of God! We intend to leverage the attention that the Purpose Driven Life has garnered to bring about a whole new way of thinking and acting in the church about our responsibility in the world.”
Warren seems to think God has big plans through his book. At the end of his peace plan he reminds us of how important his book is and how many are on board already.
Would God not be doing this work without the book? Global glory of God, yes sounds tremendous, where is Jesus Christ, the Gospel or the cross in any of this. This is not the method that the apostles used yet the Bible says they turned the world upside down.
How about starting with one city instead of the whole planet. Lets see Warren use this plan in his own area he lives in instead of having everyone jump on board his global peace plan. And what about the church gaining a whole new way of thinking? Yes this is key, a new way of thinking and doing church. With words such as Peace plan ... new way of thinking… new reformation…Change ... Global Glory for God etc. I can only wonder how Warren has arrived at this.
Jesus peace plan is to be reconciled to God through the cross and he will one day bring his government to earth and peace will reign. Until then nothing will be solved, the Bible says things get worse. We may not like to hear this but this is reality. Though Warren may have good intentions it fails in biblical measure. Again we should all be for more mission work and help the needy but Warrens peace plan is not the answer.
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Psalm 119:104Through thy precepts I get understanding: therefore I hate every false way. 105Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.
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