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Topic: End of Times
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SoftTouch
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Member # 2316
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by whitesands777:
Niedzie
The book of Revelation is God's word...satan cannot change God's word...
AMEN! ![[clap2]](graemlins/clap2.gif)
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Psalm 119:104Through thy precepts I get understanding: therefore I hate every false way. 105Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.
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whitesands777
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Member # 3424
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posted
Niedzie
The book of Revelation is God's word...satan cannot change God's word...
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whitesands777
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Member # 3424
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posted
It's amazing Bro. Greg...If we understand the truth it's our job to tell others what it is in love in our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
I do believe, when our fellow brothers and sisters in Jesus see the events unfolding they will know in there hearts when the time is near and will begin to understand the truth.
It is very near my dear brethren. We are blessed because I do believe that we are very close to the second coming of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ....
What a glorious day that will be...
Let each and every one of us pray for His soon return every morning and every night.
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Niedziejkore
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Member # 2773
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posted
I think the problem with revelations is that the Antichrist has access to it... who's to say he won't change his strategy?
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Worker bees can leave
Even drones can fly away
The queen is their slave.
Posts: 346 | From: Wisconsin | Registered: Feb 2004
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Bro. Greg
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Member # 2943
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posted
Whitesands777, the scriptures state that by 2 or 3 witnesses the truth shall be established! Although the truth is established some still will not believe the truth. The scriptures say,
In earth there are three that bear witness, the Water, the Blood, and the Holy Ghost.
They refuse to even believe the witness of God which is greater that the witness of any man! Nevertheless, let us endevour to speak the truth!
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Isaiah 5:20(KJV) 20Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!
Bro. Greg
In and By His Grace
http://www.mychristiansite.com/ministries/pass_it_on
Posts: 527 | From: Montana, USA | Registered: Mar 2004
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whitesands777
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Member # 3424
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posted
Trafield, Bro. Greg, and Soft touch...I have to say to you Excellent work...
You have brought up verses that clearly state the truth. ![[youpi]](graemlins/youpi.gif)
Thank God for his truth....
There is not one verse in the bible that clearly states a pre trib rapture...the scriptures that are used by those who hold a pre trib theory do not clearly state a pre trib rapture...But the meaning is ASSUMED and molded by the mind of those who hold the pre trib viewpoint that there will be a pre trib rapture.
Please, I do not want to offend anyone but I want to speak the truth in love.
Jesus tells us that he will gather his elect from the 4 winds (north, south, east, and west which is around the world) after the tribulation in Mathew 24....It doesn't get any clearer than that my brothers and sisters in Christ. He does say we won't know the day or hour...But He also says we will know when it is near...This fact does not refute a post trib rapture...It can still happen after the trib and it can still be true that we won't know the day or hour.
You have to get clear on the endtime events before you can fully understand.
You have to know the difference between satan and God's wrath and when they occur and there are specific scriptures that tell us.
You have to know how long the tribulation is...You have to understand that the tribulation is 3 1/2 years and not 7...Again there are very specific scriptures that tell us this..I know there are alot of teachers out there that say there is a 7 year trib....Not one scripture supports that theory...There are scriptures that specifically say that it is 3 1/2 years...And there are scriptures that tell us that the confirmation of the covenant starts the final 7 years and the middle of that the covenant will be broken. If you go back and forth between Daniel chapter 12 and Matthew 24 it will tell you EXACTLY how long the great tribulation is. Jesus says that it happens at the abomination of desolation.
Once you read these and understand you will see why holding the pre trib view contradicts to what the bible SPECIFICALLY teaches. Such as Daniel being resurrected at the end of the final 1,290 days(how long after the end it does not state which still supports Jesus telling us no one knows the day or hour). This also tells us when the dead in Christ will rise...Remember in 1 Thess that the dead in Christ will Rise FIRST then those who are alive and remain will be caught up !I'm pretty confident that Daniel is in Christ and the book specifically tells us that Daniel will rise at the end of those days.
For example, A person can tell you that they will come see you after school is out for the summer but they don't give you a specific day...They could come 3 days later after school is out and it would still be true that they came after school....
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whitesands777
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posted
First of all...Not to be argumentative, but saying these things for the sake of the truth in love, The proofs mentioned by rapturewatcher are not proofs...Because it isn't mentioned doesn't prove that it doesn't happen.
You have to look at scriptures that tell us exactly what will happen....Not the scriptures that don't mention it. You can find the same prophecy in different places in the bible...It will be the same prophecy but it will often reveal additional clues while omitting other clues that are mentioned somewhere else. Such as Matthew chapter 24 and Daniel chapter 12...Some of the same prophecies but different details.
There is NOT a 7 year tribulation...There is not one scripture that tells us there is a 7 year tribulation...The tribulation is 3 1/2 years.
There IS a final 7 year period when the covenant with Israel is confirmed by the antichrist...He will break the covenant in the middle of that period leaving 3 1/2 years left....It starts with the abomination of desolation...Spoken of in the book of Daniel and by Jesus in Mathew 24 verse 15-21 which says:
"Therefore when you see the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. Let him who is on the house top not come down to take anything out of his house. And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. But woe to those who are pregnant and to those with nursing babies in those days! And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath. FOR THEN THERE WILL BE GREAT TRIBULATION, SUCH AS NOT BEEN SINCE THE BEGINNING OF THE WORLD UNTIL THIS TIME,NO,NOR EVER SHALL BE.AND UNLESS THOSE DAYS BE SHORTENED, NO FLESH WOULD BE SAVED;BUT FOR THE ELECT'S SAKE THOSE DAYS WILL BE SHORTENED."
In the above passage Jesus clearly tells us that when the abomination of desolation occurs it will trigger great tribulation...O.k....So when does the abomination of desolation occur ? In the book of Daniel God tells us when it occurs in Daniel 9 verse 27 which says:
"Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for 1 week; but in the middle of the week he shall bring an end to the sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate,even until the consummation, which is poured out on the desolate."
And God tells us again when the abomination of desolation occurs in Daniel 12 verse 11-13which says:
"And from that time that the daily sacrifice is taken away, and the abomination of desolation is set up, there shall be one thousand two hundred and ninety days. Blessed is he who waits, and comes to the one thousand three hundred and thirty five-days. But you, go your way till the end; for you shall rest, and will arise to your inheritance at the end of the days."
WOW ! Jesus said in Matthew 24 that the great tribulation will begin at the abomination of desolation and He tells us again in the book of Daniel when the abomination of desolation will occur...The EXACT NUMBER OF DAYS!!! Halfway into the final seven years which is 3 1/2 years which is exactly 1,290 days!!!
AMAZING!! He also tells us that Daniel will be resurrected AT THE END OF THE DAYS!!!
If the rapture occurs before the tribulation then why was Daniel told that he would be resurrected at the END of the 1,290 days? Because the rapture DOES NOT occur before the tribulation..It occurs after the tribulation.
1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 tells us : "For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air."..This is when Daniel is resurrected at the end of the 1,290 days.
This doesn't refute what Jesus says about no one knowing the day or hour of his coming...But Jesus himself said that we will know when his coming is NEAR when he described the budding of the fig tree in Matthew 24....So, if it occurs somewhere at the end of the tribulation we still DON'T KNOW THE EXACT DAY OR HOUR of His coming...But it does give us a clue when it will be NEAR.
Another misconception is that the great tribulation is God's wrath....Not one verse in the bible proves this theory.
The great tribulation is satan's wrath. How do we know? Revelation 12: verse 7-17 where it describes a war in heaven and satan is cast down to the earth and specifically verse 12 says : "therefore rejoice , O heavens and you who dwell in them! Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and the sea! For the devil has come down to you, HAVING GREAT WRATH, because he knows he has a short time."
Verse 13-17 talks about his persecution of Israel and verse 17 specifically says: "And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ."
Here it says that the dragon (satan) is enraged..Sounds like satan's wrath...It also sounds like that he will persecute those who have the testimony of Jesus Christ...Who has the testimony of Jesus Christ ? Christians. This also tells us that we will be here during the time of satan's wrath.
God's wrath occurs at the battle of Armageddon when Jesus defeats the armies of satan as written in Revelation 19.
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ephesian
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posted
Also I would like to add when Paul said we shall be changed In A Moment, he didn't mean at Any moment. I also was taught in the ways of Pre-trib, but something just didn't ring true about it in my Spirit.
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Trafield
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posted
quote:
I believe in the pre-trib rapture. How can Jesus appear like a thief in the night, if the anit christ has already been revealed?
Jesus is coming like a thief in the night, but for unbelievers not us believers who are watching for his return. So Jesus coming like a thief in the night cannot be reconciled as proof of the pretrib view.
1 Thessalonians 5:1-4
1Now as to the times and the epochs, brethren, you have no need of anything to be written to you.
2For you yourselves know full well that the day of the Lord will come just like a thief in the night.
3While they are saying, “Peace and safety!” then destruction will come upon them suddenly like labor pains upon a woman with child, and they will not escape.
4But you, brethren, are not in darkness, that the day would overtake you like a thief;
5for you are all sons of light and sons of day. We are not of night nor of darkness;
6so then let us not sleep as others do, but let us be alert and sober.
quote:
The pretribulation rapture is the only view that allows for the rapture to be imminent in its timing. All the other views require a number of prophetic occurrences to take place before the rapture can be declared imminent. To be looking for the imminent return of Christ, you have to believe in a pre-trib rapture.
Which is why I no longer hold to the pretrib view. As Softouch posted above 2 Thessalonians 2:3 clearly says that our being gathered unto the Lord cannot happen until...this contradicts the doctrine of imminency.
Again I will post an article I wrote on this subject. You pretribbers can choose to ignore it if you wish, or you can be challenged by another view. The choice is always yours. But if you would like to know how someone who use to be pretrib came to understand that this view was wrong, then read on:
I believe that though Daniel prophesied on the final seven years for the world and especially for Israel, I believe scripture teaches that the tribulation period, God's wrathful judgement for this Earth is actually only 3 1/2 years. Scripture is consistant in detailing these endtime events centering around the 'abomination of desolation.' Therefore, I believe that the rapture will occur near the middle of Daniel's final 7 years, and at the general time that the tribulation period begins. Here is why I believe this way and why I see scripture supporting this:
Jesus says in Matthew 24:15-22:
"So when you see standing in the holy place 'the abomination that causes desolation,' spoken of through the prophet Daniel-let the reader understand-then let those in Judea flee to the mountains...."
"For then there will will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now-and never to be equaled again. If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened."
We know from Daniel 9:27 that the 'abomination that causes desolation' happens in the middle of the final seven year period, or 3 1/2 years after the antichrist confirms the covenant. And Daniel 11:36-44, details the events imediately before the antichrist commits this 'abomination,' all which are prophecied for the 'last days.'
Jesus, in Matthew 24:15-22, was obviously referring to Daniel 12:1 where it states:
"At that time, Michael, the great prince that protects your people, will arise. There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then."
Furthermore 1 Corinthians 15:51-52 says:
"Listen, I tell you a mystery: we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed- in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet."
Revelation 10:7 says:
"But in the days when the seventh angel is about to sound his trumpet, the mystery of God will be accomplished, just as he announced to his servants the prophets."
The seventh trumpet is before the final wrath of God in Chapter 16 of Revelation, which I believe occurs shortly after the 'abomination of desolation.'
To clarify, I feel that Christians could and probably will go through some extremely tough times, possibly even a nuclear world war, but the surviving Christians will be raptured shortly after the antichrist is revealed by the 'abomination of desolation.'
This is backed up by 2 Thessalonians 2:3-4:
"Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day (the rapture) will not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the man doomed to destruction. He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshipped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God."
This verse clearly shows that the revealing of the antichrist will not be from the signing of the covenant but from the antichrist entering the Temple and proclaiming he is God, which is 'the abomination of desolation' and the central theme of the scriptures I have referrenced.
2 Thessalonians 2:3-4 says that the rapture cannot occur until the antichrist is revealed, though I was always taught, under the pre-trib view, that the opposite was true. And again, from Daniel, we know this abomination happens in the middle of the final 7 year period at which time, again according to Daniel 12:1-2,
" At that time Michael, the great prince that protects your people, will arise. There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people-everyone whose name is found written in the book- will be delivered. Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt."
I find it amazing that most people will tell you that this does not refer to the rapture. What could it refer to, if not the rapture? For we know the dead in Christ will rise first as
1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 clearly shows:
"For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the achangel(Michael, See Daniel 12:1-2), and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."
"But wait," you say. "What about the immenency of our Lord's return? Is he not going to come like a thief in the night?"
He will indeed come like a thief in the night, but only to those who don't know Him and are not ready. 1 Thessalonians 5:1-6 says:
"Now, brothers, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. While people are saying 'Peace and safety,' destruction will come on them suddenly (again, a reference to the abomination of desolation when the antichrist breaks the covenant), as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.
But you, brothers are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief. You are all sons of the light and sons of the day. We do not belong to the night or to the darkness. So then, let us not be like others, who are asleep, but let us be alert and self-controlled."
I cannot find any scripture that supports the Lord could come at any time. As I stated earlier, scripture states that the antichrsit must be revealed first.
Because of the consistency of scripture centered around the abomination of desolation, it is apparent to me that Christians will see the antichrist revealed when he enters the rebuilt temple and proclaims that he is God.
It is "at this time" when "there will will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now-and never to be equaled again."
But thank God, for us that know Him, "those days will be shortened."
Even so, come quickly Lord Jesus!
May God bless you all,
Tracy
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rapturewatcher
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posted
The pretribulation rapture is the only view that allows for the rapture to be imminent in its timing. All the other views require a number of prophetic occurrences to take place before the rapture can be declared imminent. To be looking for the imminent return of Christ, you have to believe in a pre-trib rapture.
Jesus repeatedly said that His return for the Church would be a surprise. The Lord even went beyond that by saying He would return “as a thief” when believers generally won't be expecting Him to come for them.
"But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only" (Matthew 24:36).
"Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up. Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh. Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season? Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing" (Matthew 24:42-46 KJV).
"Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh" (Matthew 25:13).
"And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power" (Acts 1:7).
Because we have no way to refute the fact that we will not know the timing of our Lord's return, the tribulation is a barrier to the rapture. No wonder the late John Walvoord called imminency "the heart of Pretribulationism."
This type of “any-moment” language doesn't fit a post-trib rapture. If Jesus were prevented from coming until after the battle of Magog, the rise of Antichrist, and the Mark of the Beast, we would have no need to watch for Him before the tribulation.
If the Church were required to go through the seven-year tribulation, you would expect the New Testament writers to have warned us to be prepared for trying times. On the contrary, the New Testament writers repeatedly tell the Church to be comforted by the "coming of the Lord" (1 Thes 4:18). The word "comfort" alone strongly implies the rapture will take place before the tribulation.
Some anti-imminency folks try to solve the problem they have with the rapture's any-moment occurrence by redefining it as merely indicating that Christ will return soon. The speed of Christ's advent is not the issue. If an event is required to take place before the Lord can return, there is no need to remain watchful.
If a person should make it through the tribulation until the point when the mid-trib, pre-wrath, and post-trib folks expect the rapture to occur, it would then become possible for the rapture to be classified as “imminent.” However, once you solve the problem of imminency, you create another one regarding the restrictions against knowing the timing of the rapture.
Because the duration of the tribulation is already known, post-tribbers have the hardest time dealing with the rapture's timing. Some of them have tried to suggest that believers who make it through the tribulation will lazily lose track of the nearness of Christ's second coming.
If a Christian has been lucky enough to survive a host of apocalyptic calamities and elude the Antichrist's secret police for at least 3 1/2 years, I cannot imagine that he would be oblivious to the nearness of the Lord's return at the 7-year mark. If I were reduced to the point of having to hide in a forest and forage through dead tree bark to find beetles and grubs to sustain myself, I'm certain my every thought would be focused on the Lord's return.
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TEXASGRANDMA
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posted
Check out the Left Behind movies and books, they are very good. ![[spiny]](graemlins/spiny.gif)
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
http://www.indieheaven.com/artists/mm (son-in-law)http://www.myspace.com/mireles
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TEXASGRANDMA
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posted
I believe the anti-christ will use the rapture to take over the world. The people left behind will be scared and confused. This will give the anit-christ the opportunuty to look like the saviour the world will be looking for to get them out of the mess they will be in.
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
http://www.indieheaven.com/artists/mm (son-in-law)http://www.myspace.com/mireles
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rapturewatcher
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posted
I believe if you finish reading the chapter, you will see different.
2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and [by] our gathering together unto him,
2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
2Th 2:5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
2Th 2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
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2Th 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth [will let], until he be taken out of the way.
2Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming :
2Th 2:9 [Even him], whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
2Th 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
2Th 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
2Th 2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
2Th 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
2Th 2:14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
2Th 2:15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.
2Th 2:16 Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and hath given [us] everlasting consolation and good hope through grace,
2Th 2:17 Comfort your hearts, and stablish you in every good word and work.
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SoftTouch
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posted
I would Love to believe in a Pre-Trib rapture, but because of these verses I can't:
2 Thes. 2
1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
This says it pretty plainly... we will see the AC revealed BEFORE we are gathered together unto Jesus.
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Psalm 119:104Through thy precepts I get understanding: therefore I hate every false way. 105Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.
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TEXASGRANDMA
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posted
http://www.tyndale.edu/dirn/articles/rapture.html
I believe in the pre-trib rapture. How can Jesus appear like a thief in the night, if the anit christ has already been revealed? The above link has many scriputres backing the pre-trib rapture.
The tribulation is a time when God pours out his wrath on the world. I do not believe that God intends to pour out His wrath on His own people.
thanks, Betty
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
http://www.indieheaven.com/artists/mm (son-in-law)http://www.myspace.com/mireles
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Bro. Greg
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posted
Thanks for the post rapturewatcher! ![[Smile]](smile.gif) I guess in a way I asked for it! LOL Just a little humor there brother! Please don't be offended by it! In your first proof you stated this:
quote:
Proof #1: Revelation 19:11-21 doesn't mention a resurrection.
The rapture is a resurrection of those "in Christ" (1 Thess. 4:13-18). Isn't it a little bit odd that in Rev. 19:11-21, which is the clearest picture of the second coming of Christ, there is no mention of a resurrection? The rapture will be the biggest event since the resurrection of Jesus where hundreds of millions of Christians will be resurrected and translated, yet there isn't any mention here. Don't you think it deserves at least one verse? The rapture isn't mentioned because it doesn't happen at the second coming.
Check this out!
quote:
The Holy Bible, King James Version
Gen 3:15 - Gen 3:14 (KJV) 15And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
This is talking about THE biggest event of all time, bigger than the "rapture" because without this event there wouldn't be a "rapture"! Do you think it a little odd that the word Cross or Crucifiction was not mentioned? Just because it was not mentioned does that mean it never happened? No, nor does it mean just because the ressurection was not mentioned as you stated that it will not happen at His Second Coming! So proof #1 is not really "proof" at all to me. I don't really have time to go into the other proofs right now but perhaps later if the Lord willing! Don't mean to be arguing brother but the proofs just don't ad up against scripture. They look good, fine and dandy if one wants to believe them though!
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Isaiah 5:20(KJV) 20Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!
Bro. Greg
In and By His Grace
http://www.mychristiansite.com/ministries/pass_it_on
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rapturewatcher
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posted
16 Proofs for a Pre-Tribulation Rapture
Proof #1: Revelation 19:11-21 doesn't mention a resurrection.
The rapture is a resurrection of those "in Christ" (1 Thess. 4:13-18). Isn't it a little bit odd that in Rev. 19:11-21, which is the clearest picture of the second coming of Christ, there is no mention of a resurrection? The rapture will be the biggest event since the resurrection of Jesus where hundreds of millions of Christians will be resurrected and translated, yet there isn't any mention here. Don't you think it deserves at least one verse? The rapture isn't mentioned because it doesn't happen at the second coming.
Proof #2: Zechariah 14:1-15 doesn't mention a resurrection.
This is an Old Testament picture of Jesus returning to earth at the second coming. Again, no mention of a resurrection.
Proof #3: Two different pictures are painted.
In the Old Testament, there were two different pictures painted of the Messiah—one suffering (Isa. 53:2-10, Ps. 22:6-8, 11-18) and one reigning as King (Ps. 2:6-12, Zech. 14:9,16). As we look back on these scriptures, we see they predicted two separate comings of the Messiah—the 1st coming as a suffering Messiah and the 2nd coming (still future) as a reigning King.
In the New Testament, we have another picture added. Again, we have two pictures painted which don’t look the same. These two different descriptions of Jesus’ coming point to two separate events we call "the rapture" and "the second coming."
Proof #4: The Known Day and the Unknown Day
Concerning the return of Jesus, the Bible presents a day we can't know and a day we can know. Matthew 25:13 says Jesus will return at an unknown time, while Revelation 12:6 says the Jews will have to wait 1,260 days for the Lord to return. The 1,260 days begins when the Antichrist stands in the Temple and declares himself to be God (Matt. 24:15-21, 2 Thess. 2:4) This event will take place at the mid-point of the seven year Tribulation (Dan 9:27). The Antichrist has authority to rule for 42 months, which is 1,260 days (Rev. 13:4) and will be destroyed by Jesus at His second coming (Rev. 19:20, 2 Thess. 2:8). The known and unknown days must happen at different times, meaning they are two separate events.
Proof #5: A door open in heaven (Revelation 4:1)
The door in heaven is opened to let John into heaven. We believe John's call into heaven is prophetic of the church being caught up at the rapture (see proof #6). In Revelation 19:11, heaven is opened again, this time to let the armies which are already in heaven out. This is the Church, which has been raptured at a previous time, following Jesus out of heaven at the second coming.
Proof #6: "Come up here." (Revelation 4:1)
A voice called for the apostle John to "Come up here," and immediately he was in heaven. This could be a prophetic reference to the rapture of the Church. The words "Come up here" are spoken to the two witnesses who are killed in the middle of the Tribulation, who are resurrected and ascend into heaven (Rev. 11:12). Therefore, the phrase "Come up here" could mean the church is raptured in Rev. 4:1. The word "church" is mentioned 22 times in Rev. 1-3, but is not mentioned again until Rev. 22:17.
Proof #7: The 24 elders have their crowns.
After John is called up into heaven, he sees the 24 elders with their crowns (Rev. 4:4-10). We know that Christians will receive their rewards (crowns) at the rapture (2 Tim. 4:8, 1 Pet. 5:4). We will be repaid at the resurrection of the righteous (Luke 14:14). The elders couldn't receive their crowns unless the resurrection (rapture) has taken place.
Proof #8 Holy ones are already with Jesus in heaven (Zech. 14:5, Rev. 19:14)
The armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, follow Jesus out of heaven at His second coming (Rev. 19:14, Zech. 14:5, Col. 3:4). These are not angels because Rev. 19:8 tells us the fine linen is the righteousness of the saints. In order to come out of heaven we first have to go in, indicating a previous rapture.
Proof #9: Kept from the hour of testing (Rev. 3:10)
Revelation 3:10 says we will be kept out of the hour of testing which will come upon the whole earth (the Tribulation). Some have wrongly believed "keep" means to keep through, or protect through the Tribulation. Suppose you approach a high voltage area with a sign that says, "Keep Out." Does that mean you can enter and be protected? No, it means you are forbidden from entering the area. But this verse also says He will keep us from the hour of testing. It is not just the testing, but the time period. If a student is excused from a test, he still may have to sit in the class while others take the test. But if he is excused from the hour of testing, he can go home. The Church will be called home before the hour of testing.
Proof #10: Angels don't resurrect people when they gather them for judgment.
When the angels are sent forth to gather the elect at the second coming (Matt. 24:29-31), some have wrongly interpreted this as the rapture. There is one huge problem with this interpretation. If we are resurrected at this time, why would we need angels to gather us? In the resurrection, we will be like the angels (Matt. 22:30), able to travel in the air at will. Obviously, these people who are gathered are not resurrected, therefore it can't be the rapture. No one would claim the wicked are raptured at this time, yet Matthew 13:39-41) says the angels will not only gather the elect, but also the wicked. This gathering is not a resurrection.
Proof #11: Both wicked and righteous both can't be taken first.
First Thessalonians 4:13-17 says the righteous are taken and the wicked are left behind. Matthew 13:30, 49 says the wicked are taken first and righteous are left behind. This points to two separate events, the rapture and the second coming.
Proof #12: Jesus returns from the wedding.
When Jesus returns to earth at the second coming, He will return from a wedding (Luke 12:36). At the rapture, Jesus is married to His bride, the Church. After the wedding, He will return to earth.
Proof #13: Jesus will receive us to Himself, not us to receive Him (John 14:2-3).
Jesus said He would prepare a place for the Church in heaven, then He would come again to receive us to Himself. Why would Jesus prepare a place for us in heaven and then not take us there? At the rapture, He will come to receive us to Himself, "that where I am (heaven), there you may be also." If the rapture occurred at the same time as the second coming, we would go up to the clouds and then immediately come back to earth. That would contradict John 14:2-3.
Proof #14: The one who restrains is taken out of the way.
In 2 Thess. 2:6-7, Paul says "the one who restrains will be taken out of the way" before the Antichrist can be revealed. We believe this refers to the rapture because the Church is clearly the biggest obstacle to the Antichrist becoming a world ruler.
Proof #15: The separation of the sheep and goats (Matt. 25:31-46)
If the rapture occurred at the second coming, why would the sheep and the goats need to be separated immediately after the second coming? With a Pre-Tribulation rapture, the people saved after the rapture will need to be separated after the second coming.
Proof #16: Who will populate the Millennium?
If the rapture occurs at the second coming and the wicked are cast into hell at that time, who will be left to populate the millennium? Only people in their natural (non-resurrected) bodies will be able to have children (Matt. 22:30).
With a Pre-Tribulation rapture, the people saved after the rapture who are alive at the second coming will populate the earth during the Millennium (See "Who will populate the millennium?" Bible Study).
Posts: 187 | Registered: Jun 2002
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Bro. Greg
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Member # 2943
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posted
Most people believe in a "rapture" that is not talked about in the scriptures. I have yet to find anyone to show me in scripture where it talks about a "rapture". I have been shown a lot of scripture that is said to be talking about a "rapture" but that is the problem...it is said to be talking about one. What the scriptures say is plain and simple whitesands777 after the great tribulation as you state and like the site posted by tyme. That is why the Second Coming of Christ is turned into the 3rd coming of Christ by the rapturist. I could go on and on with scriptures but they reject them over and over. But...time will tell I suppose!
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Isaiah 5:20(KJV) 20Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!
Bro. Greg
In and By His Grace
http://www.mychristiansite.com/ministries/pass_it_on
Posts: 527 | From: Montana, USA | Registered: Mar 2004
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whitesands777
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Member # 3424
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posted
In Matthew 24 Jesus Himself says that he's coming after the tribulation and that he will send His angels gather his elect from the 4 winds...
How is it that there will be a pre trib rapture when this scripture says that he's coming after the great tribulation?
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TEXASGRANDMA
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Member # 847
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posted
I disagree with the about the rapture. I believe it will take place before the tribulation takes place. Probably just before the antichrist comes on the scene. I believe that he will use the rapture and the fear it will arise in people when the rapture takes place to establish himself as the world's "saviour". It will take something major for every country to accept him. The lose of millions of people from all over the world would be major.
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
http://www.indieheaven.com/artists/mm (son-in-law)http://www.myspace.com/mireles
Posts: 4985 | From: Washington State | Registered: Jan 2003
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Tyme
Advanced Member
Member # 3017
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posted
I wonder, if anyone can give me some insigt to the validity of this site:
End Of Times Church
Tyme.
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I dream of a world.......
Posts: 527 | From: United States | Registered: Mar 2004
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