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Topic: THE POPE, AN ILLUMINIST
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charitee
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Member # 1928
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INRI,
I do agree that there's a lot of misunderstanding with regard to Catholics and hence I do seek to understand the differences in our doctrines.
As you mentioned, one of the common misunderstandings is with regard to 'praying' to Mary and the saints. We do often seek prayers from our friends and pastors. However, the major difference being Mary and the saints have passed on. How would you explain this?
The other thing that I seek clarification is with regard to Holy Communion. Is it true that Catholics believe that the bread translate into the actual body of Christ in the believer?
Once again, I do apologise for my ignorance with regard to your Catholic beliefs.
Posts: 14 | From: a tiny island | Registered: Aug 2003
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SoftTouch
Advanced Member
Member # 2316
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WOW! ![[Eek!]](eek.gif) I see there is a much disagreement on here as there was on the Harrison message board I was trying to share Jesus on!
Once again I find myself in total agreement with "helpforhomeschoolers" and "BecauseHElives" ![[thumbsup2]](graemlins/thumbsup2.gif) But that one post was way too long to read at one sitting! ![[biglaugha]](graemlins/biglaugha.gif) It goes along with everything I've read in the Gary Kah book "The New World Religion" and it's right on target! There are even websites for the new United Religion Organization and Gorbachev's "Earth Charter" - so these arn't conspiracy theories but actual events that are taking place. In order for the Anti-Christ to appear, the stage has to be set... From what I'm seeing... it won't be long!
Keep up the good work of informing our Brothers and Sisters what the AC is up to! ![[type]](graemlins/type.gif)
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Psalm 119:104Through thy precepts I get understanding: therefore I hate every false way. 105Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.
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RioLion
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We knew that our Catholic practice of not eating meating on Fridays during Lent would cause problems so ....
I can identify with how you feel about such things. The secular worldview of many is to detest religious scruples.
Colossians 2:20-23 Therefore, if you died with Christ from the basic principles of the world, why, as though living in the world, do you subject yourselves to regulations—
"Do not touch, do not taste, do not handle," which all concern things which perish with the using—according to the commandments and doctrines of men? These things indeed have an appearance of wisdom in self-imposed religion, false humility, and neglect of the body, but are of no value against the indulgence of the flesh. ![[Bible]](graemlins/bible.gif)
I, for one, believe that unless it is very necessary, one should not announce to the world when you fast or when you perform good deeds. While it is true that the church may ask people to fast - my did this past week - fasting is to bring us closer to the Lord. It is not something that can be made mandatory. ![[angel3]](graemlins/angel3.gif)
In closing, I really do not want to continue this debate if there are no other inputs than mine as I feel that there is little for me to gain.
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INRI
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by RioLion:
Whereas I would certainly agree with you that God is the God of both living and the dead (Mk 12:26-27), but in praying to someone God created, you are clearly praying to the creation and not the Creator. I do not think you will dispute that assertion.
RioLion, do not be confused by our terminology, we a Catholic uses the word “pray” it means “to ask”. It definitely does not mean we are worshiping a saint as if they were good, we are merely asking them to pray on our behalf to the Lord JESUS CHRIST. This is identical to you asking one of your holy Protestant friends in a letter or email to pray for you. Same thing. All prayers go through the one mediator and that is JESUS CHRIST.
Also, to say someone is or is not in heaven, you are clearly usurping the authority of God to judge both the living and the dead. Only God knows the heart, and it is often impossible to distinguish between genuine Christians and those that are professors - the wheat and the tares analogy (Mt. 13).
JESUS is the head and his body is the Church [Eph 1:22-23]. The Church protected by the Holy Spirit [Jn 14:26] has the final say [Mt 18:15-18] and it alone is the pillar and foundation of the truth [1 Tim 3:15]. Therefore I can have faith that what the Church teaches is true. The canonization of saints [even if you believe it may be subject to error, I disagree] provides us with many examples of persons before us who lead holy lives [if only externally as you claim], demonstrating that we as sinful human beings can strive for holiness as well [Heb 12:14]. It must be understood that there will be many more saints in heaven than the Church officially proclaims. I really do not see this as a big issue worthy of timeless discussion.
I see no explicit authority given to any church to make the determination as to who is or who is not saved. If you say that the Roman Church has the authority over the doors of heaven, then effectively the Roman Church has become your lord and savior.
No, the Church is our guide always leading us to CHRIST. Just because the Church does not officially proclaim that someone is a saint does not mean that they are condemned to hell.
The authority given to the apostles in loosing and binding does not apply to the salvation of others.
In your opinion what does the authority of “binding and loosing” given to the Church JESUS established apply to?
Again, I totally disagree with you that the Roman Church was given some kind of special mandate from God to make these kinds of determinations apart from the simple clear message of Scripture.
We may have to agree to disagree then, but it must be acknowledged that many things in scripture are hard to understand [Acts 8:30-31, Acts 20:29-30, Eph 4:13-15, 1 Cor 12:25, 2 Tim 4:3-4, 2 Pet 1:20, 2 Pet 3:16], especially in regards to salvation so it is necessary for there to be an authority we can turn to for clarification [Is 22:22, Mt 16:18-19, Mt 18:15-18, Mt 23:2-3, Jn 10:16, Eph 1:22-23, 1 Tim 3:15, Heb 13:17]. For example, as good as the U.S. Constitution is, can the document self-interpret itself? NO. The Supreme Court is needed for interpretation so in the same way the Church is needed [and qualified] to interpret the Bible but even more so since the Bible came from the Church.
“For my part, I should not believe the gospel except as moved by the authority of the Catholic Church” [St. Augustine]
"We are obliged to yield many things to the Papists (Catholics) that they possess the Word of God which we received from them, otherwise we should have known nothing at all about it." [Martin Luther - His Commentary on St. John, Chapter 16]
You have not provided any Scripture to justify prayers to the dead for intercession. All you have done is to indicate that the dead in Christ are alive with Christ. There is no indication that God has given them any functions regarding prayer. We are clearly being presumptuous in saying that our prayers are heard by the deceased in heaven.
RioLion, you requested scriptural support, here is a good source.
http://www.scripturecatholic.com/saints.html#saints-III
III. Specific Instructions to Mediate and Examples of Subordinate Mediation
New Testament
Matt. 5:44-45 - Jesus tells us to pray for (to mediate on behalf of) those who persecute us. God instructs us to mediate.
Matt. 27:52-53 - at Jesus' passion, many saints were raised and went into the city to appear and interact with the people.
Mark 11:24 - Jesus says that whatever we ask in prayer, we will receive it. It is Jesus, and also we through Jesus, who mediate.
Rom 15:30 - Paul commands the family of God to pray for him. If we are united together in the one body of Christ, we can help each other.
2 Cor. 1:11 - Paul even suggests that the more prayers and the more people who pray, the merrier! Prayer is even more effective when united with other's prayers.
2 Cor. 9:14 - Paul says that the earthly saints pray for the Corinthians. They are subordinate mediators in Christ.
2 Cor. 13:7,9 - Paul says the elders pray that the Corinthians may do right and improve. They participate in Christ's mediation.
Gal. 6:2,10 - Paul charges us to bear one another's burdens, and to do good to all, especially those in the household of faith.
Eph. 6:18 - Paul commands the family of God to pray for each other.
Eph. 6:19 - Paul commands that the Ephesians pray for him. If there is only one mediator, why would Paul ask for their prayers?
Phil. 1:19 - Paul acknowledges power of Philippians' earthly intercession. He will be delivered by their prayers and the Holy Spirit.
Col. 1:3 - Paul says that he and the elders pray for the Colossians. They are subordinate mediators in the body of Christ.
Col. 1:9 - Paul says that he and the elders have not ceased to pray for the Colossians, and that, by interceding, they may gain wisdom.
Col. 4:4 - Paul commands the Colossians to pray for the elders of the Church so that God may open a door for the word. Why doesn't Paul just leave it up to God? Because subordinate mediation is acceptable and pleasing to God, and brings about change in the world. This is as mysterious as the Incarnation, but it is true.
1 Thess. 5:11 - Paul charges us to encourage one another and build one another up, in the body of Christ. We do this as mediators in Christ.
1 Thess. 5:17 - Paul says "pray constantly." If Jesus' role as mediator does not apply subordinately to us, why pray at all?
1 Thess. 5:25 - Paul commands the family of God to pray for the elders of the Church. He desires our subordinate mediation.
2 Thess. 1:11 - Paul tells the family of God that he prays for us. We participate in Christ's mediation because Christ desires this.
2 Thess. 3:1 - Paul asks the Thessalonians to pray for Him, Silvanus and Timothy so that they may be delivered.
1 Tim. 2:1-3 - Paul commands us to pray for all. Paul also states that these prayers are acceptable in the sight of God.
Philemon 1:22 - Paul is hoping through Philemon's intercession that he may be able to be with Philemon.
Hebrews 13:18-19 - the author strongly urges the Hebrews to pray for the elders so that they act desirably in all things.
James 5:14-15- James says the prayer of the priests over the sick man will save the sick man and forgive his sins.
James 5:16 - James instructs us to confess our sins to one another and pray for one another so that we may be healed.
James 5:17-18 - James refers to God's response to Elijah's fervent prayer for no rain. He is teaching us about the effectiveness of our earthly mediation.
1 John 5:14-15 - John is confident that God will grant us anything we ask of God according to His will.
1 John 5:16-17 - our prayers for others even calls God to give life to them and keep them from sinning. Our God is a personal and living God who responds to our prayers.
3 John 2 - John prays for Gaius' health and thus acts as a subordinate mediator.
Old Testament
Gen. 20:17 - God responds to Abraham's intercession and heals Abimelech, and also his wife and slaves.
Gen. 27:29; Num. 24:9 - blessed be everyone who blesses you. If we bless others in prayer, we are also blessed.
Exodus 32:11-14, 30-34; 34:9; Num. 14:17-20; 21:7-9 - these are many examples of God's response to Moses' saintly intercession.
1 Sam. 12:23 - Samuel says that he would be sinning against God if he didn't continue to intercede for the people of Israel.
1 Chron. 10:13-14 - Saul practiced necromancy. He used a medium, not God, to seek the dead and was therefore condemned. Saul's practice is entirely at odds with the Catholic understanding of saintly mediation, where God is the source and channel of all communication, and who permits His children to participate in this power.
2 Chron. 30:27 - the prayers of the priests and Levites came before God's holy habitation in heaven and were answered.
Tobit 12:12,15 - angels place Tobit and Sarah's prayers before the Holy One. This teaches us that the angels are also our subordinate mediators. We pray to the angels to take up our prayers to God.
Job 42:7-9 - Job prayed for three friends in sin and God listened to Job as a result of these prayers.
Psalm 103:20-21; 148:1-2 - David asks the angels to intercede for him by blessing and praising the Lord.
Psalm 141:2 - David asks that his prayer be counted as incense before God. The prayers of the saints have powerful effects.
Isaiah 6:6-7 - an angel touches Isaiah's lips and declares that his sin is forgiven. The angel is a subordinate mediator of God.
Jer. 7:16 - God acknowledges the people's ability to intercede, but refuses to answer due to the hardness of heart.
Jer. 37:3 - king Zedekiah sends messengers to ask Jeremiah to intercede for the people, that he might pray to God for them.
Jer. 42:1-6 - all the people of Israel went before Jeremiah asking for his intercession, that he would pray to the Lord for them.
Baruch 3:4 - Baruch asks the Lord to hear the prayers of the dead of Israel. They can intercede on behalf of the people of God.
Dan. 9:20-23 - Daniel intercedes on behalf of the people of Israel confessing both his sins and the sins of the people before God.
Zech. 1:12-13 - an angel intercedes for those in Judea and God responds favorably.
2 Macc. 15:12-16 - deceased Onias and Jeremiah interceded in prayer for the Jews.
2 Macc. 15:14 - Judah has a vision in which Jeremiah the prophet is in heaven praying for the people, interceding on our behalf.
pre•sump•tu•ous adj : overstepping due bounds : taking liberties - Merriam-Webster
It appears to me that if one prays to the saints deceased for intercession depicts a lack of trust or faith in God, the Good Shepherd who loves and cares more for us than any of His creation is capable of. If God is so loving and answers our prayers to His glory, then why bother with someone He has created? To me it would be a slap in His face to go elsewhere for His blessings.
You misunderstand RioLion, our prayers to the saints express our understanding of GOD and His family where we are all family members of his Communion of Saints aka Mystical Body of CHRIST. Like I have stated before, we do not HAVE to pray to saints, we are NOT FORCED to do this, we are merely asking holy Christians to pray on our behalf to the Lord JESUS CHRIST. Yes, GOD does not need Christians to participate in anyway, He can do everything by Himself, this in no way implies he cannot handle the job, but rather, out of his mercy and love for us He allows us to participate much in the same way He allowed the Blessed Virgin Mary to participate in a unique and special way in our salvation by giving birth to and raising our Lord and Savior JESUS CHRIST.
Matthew 7:7-11 "Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. "For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened. "Or what man is there among you who, if his son asks for bread, will give him a stone? "Or if he asks for a fish, will he give him a serpent? "If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask Him!
Catholics are not doing anything contrary to this passage of scripture. We would totally agree with you here.
Perhaps the Roman Catholic expects a snake or a stone when they place their request or petition before God? To many their god is too holy to be approached; an intermediary is required.
Hehe, you make me laugh, I approach my Lord during every Mass when I receive Him Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity in the Blessed Sacrament, the Holy Eucharist. You cannot get anymore personal than that! ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Furthermore, if Christ is our great High Priest and is the Intercessor that “is even at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us.” (Romans 8:34). Then who better to intercede for us than Christ Himself? I can see asking someone living to intercede for us as that may glorify God in answered prayer and in situations where we feel incapable of prayer.
Whether on earth in body or in spirit in Heaven, if we are in CHRIST, we are part of His body, it makes no difference, scripture makes it clear that the prayer of many holy Christians is more effective than that of one maybe not-so-holy Christian. If you understood as I do that those who die in CHRIST are truly not dead [Jn 11:25-26,
1 Cor 15:21-22, 1 Thes 4:13-14, etc] then we would agree on this issue.
Why does the Roman Catholic need other intercessors?
I believe I have explained this.
I would suspect that most Roman Catholics have a much different concept of whom and what God is, in part because most lack a personal relationship with Christ.
I do not believe you can have a more personal relationship with JESUS CHRIST than as a Catholic.
Perhaps they have never experienced His wonderful love while being born again in His Spirit.
As scripture states, we are born again through the waters of baptism.
The Roman Church has relegated that experience to some kind of ritual effectively making themselves the author of ones salvation.
If this were true, then the Church would have to teach that there is no salvation outside the Church [more precisely, if you are not a member of a Catholic parish you are going to hell] … this has never been taught by the Church. Baptism as scripture teaches is the normative first step towards our salvation in JESUS CHRIST.
Howbeit, in Biblical Christianity, that experience is one in which Christ enters the life of the person and he or she becomes a new creation under the power of the Holy Spirit. It is an experience one can testify about; something that is more than some pronouncement by some church after some manmade ritual.
We cannot be led by experience alone, I can testify that I truly feel the same thing and I am smack dab in the middle of the Catholic Church, that must seem odd to you? This is not a valid proof however, for the Mormons say that they know that Mormonism is true because they feel a “burning in their bossom”, does this make Mormonism true? Certainly not!
2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.
I agree with this passage, I have seen it in my own life. You will find many Catholics who claim to be “Catholic” and yet they do not lead holy lives, ignoring the teachings of their faith. This by no means is localized to Catholicism, you can find this complacency in all Christian denominations.
I would suspect also that the Roman Catholic Church would like to limit prayer directly to God only to the clergy or their church hierarchy.
This is an odd comment, it illustrates your misunderstanding of Catholicism. As a Catholic, I am not forced to pray to a certain saint in order to get to JESUS. The Church does not tell me this, they do not force me to do that. We are at complete liberty to pray DIRECTLY to our Lord JESUS CHRIST and I find myself doing this quite often; howver, I often ask the saints like the Blessed Virgin Mary, Ss. Peter and Paul, both St. Johns, and St. Michael the Archangel to pray on my behalf to the Lord. St. Michael was never human, he is an angel, is he any different in your eyes?
But in Biblical Christianity, every regenerative person can approach God directly because Jesus is our great High Priest –
He is our High Priest as well [as Hebrews states] and we can approach directly whenever we wish.
Hebrews 4:14-16 Seeing then that we have a great High Priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession. For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin. Let us therefore come boldly to the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy and find grace to help in time of need.
I believe God can also be approached by the repentant sinner for his salvation as drawn by the Spirit of God.
Catholics would totally agree with you here if I understand you correctly. But just to clarify your statement, what would be the alternative?
I notice also that Roman Catholics depend heavily upon rote prayers found in books.
JESUS told us to pray the Lord’s Prayer [we call it the Our Father], this prayer has been repeated billions upon billions of times … this prayer is certainly not wrong! What are you implying here?
I told one Catholic lady that her prayers could be replaced by a tape recording or prayer wheel. One without the presence of the Holy Spirit in his or her life must do so because they lack the guidance of that Spirit. Prayer should be from our hearts; not from some book someone has written.
Any prayer can be said and it not be felt in your heart, even off the cusp. This is inmaterial, there is no problem with written prayers like the Lord’s Prayer as long as we understand what we are praying and feel it in our heart.
Romans 8:26-27 Likewise the Spirit also helps in our weaknesses. For we do not know what we should pray for as we ought, but the Spirit Himself makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. Now He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He makes intercession for the saints according to the will of God.
One final thought on this issue. By praying to someone deceased, you may very well open up yourself to demonic influence. Prayers to the dead are very common in the Mormon Church, in fact, it is the backbone of their prayer life.
I do not agree with Mormonism and their understanding of GOD, they feel that JESUS is one of many gods and we all may become gods!
Interesting that there are many parallels between Mormonism and modern Roman Catholicism. It is claimed by some that most converts to Mormonism are Roman Catholics.
Actually, there are many converting to Catholicism, Patty Bonds [sister of James White] is a good reason example. But in regards to those leaving the Catholic faith, the majority of converts in all Christian denominations, not just quasi-Christian sects like the Mormons and JWs, are probably Catholics because the Catholic Church makes up the vast majority of all Christians, over two-thirds of them, over 1 billion worldwide so any number of them leaving into other faiths would constitute the greatest number entering the non-Catholic faith.
The head of the Newman Club at the U of North Dakota was my son's girl friend but after he refused to convert to Roman Catholicism, they parted. Later she married and converted to Mormonism which rather surprised my son.
I find that surprising too, but people convert from one faith to another all the time, and not necessarily similar ones.
I have some of those books you mentioned and have read them. I particularly like Scott Hahn and hope that people will take his advice to –
“Pick up the Scriptures daily and read them. They are the inspired and inerrant Word of God written for you, as the Catholic Church has consistently taught throughout the century, especially Vatican II. Believe wheat you read. Share it. Pray it. Memorize it. Soak in it, as in a warm tub! Learn it well so that you can live it more fully – and share it more joyfully. This is the way to make your faith infectious. We need more contagious Catholics!” Page 177 Rome Sweet Home, by Scott & Kimberly Hahn. Of course, the more people get into the Word of God; I believe that they will see that Roman Catholic doctrine has to be superimposed upon it if one wants to continue in the Catholic faith. It has been the Holy Spirit working through His Word that has lead many away from Roman Catholicism.
Yes Dr. Scott Hahn [convert to Catholicism from the Presbyterian ministry when he tried to disprove it] is a sharp guy and I love reading and listening to him as well.
JESUS gave authority unto men and the Church:
[Isaiah 22:22, Revelation 3:7, Matthew 16:18-19, Matthew 9:8, Matthew 10:1, , Matthew 18:15-18, Matthew 23:2-3, Matthew 28:18-20, Mark 13:34, Luke 9:1-2, John 10:16, John 13:20, John 14:26, John 17:2, John 17:11, John 17:18-23, John 20:21, Acts 8:30-31, 2 Corinthians 10:8, Ephesians 1:22-23, Ephesians 4:13-15, 1 Corinthians 5:3-5, 1 Corinthians 12:25, 2 Thessalonians 2:15, 1 Timothy 1:19-20, 1 Timothy 3:15, 2 Peter 1:20, 2 Peter 3:16, Hebrews 13:17]
While it is certainly true that God has given authority to men and the church, He certainly did not given them a blank check. God, being sovereign has every right to remove authority and give it to another when that authority is abused. There is no indication that any authority given was of a permanent nature to be passed downward to successors; many of whom were evil and heinous men who abused the authority of their position.
The seat of Peter is the NT parallel of the OT seat of Moses, this passage speaks to your disbelief.
Matthew 23:2-3 (KJV)
2 Saying The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:
3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.
JESUS tells us do as they say [because they have authority], but do not do as they do [for what they teach is correct, but they are sinful men]. As I have listed above in my previous post, as prescribed in scripture GOD gave man authority in JESUS’ absence.
Matthew 7:17-19 (KJV) Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
Matthew 12:33 (KJV)
Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.
And does those Scripture give anyone the authority to execute people who disagree with the church as in the Spanish and Roman Inquisitions? Interested in your views on that. Clearly that policy was eliminated by secular authority.
We could start an entire thread about any of these topics you have brought up, certainly the Inquisition whose history is blown way out of proportion. Maybe we could speak about this in the near future. Have you studied this in great detail?
The BBC [a secular institution who is not usually Catholic friendly] has produced the following documentary that may dispel many of the myths held about the Inquisition.
BBC Documentary "The Myth of the Spanish Inquisition"
TIMEWATCH:
MYTH OF THE SPANISH INQUISITION (60:00)
This program shows how historians now evaluate the Spanish
Inquisition since the opening of an investigation into the Inquisition's
archives; it also includes commentary from historians whose studies
verify that the tale of the darkest hour of the Church was greatly
fabricated.
Saturday September 6, 2003 8:00 PM
Tuesday September 9, 2003 3:00 AM
Thursday September 11, 2003 1:00 PM
This was from their website, unfortunately I did not get the opportunity to view it. ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
"There are not over a hundred people in the United States who hate the Catholic Church. There are millions, however, who hate what they wrongly believe to be the Catholic Church — which is, of course, quite a different thing." [Archbishop Fulton Sheen]
And there are millions of Christians that do not hate the Catholic Church but simply disagree with its doctrinal stands realizing that much of what the Roman Church believes is outside the boundaries of Scripture.
All I can say brother is that it has felt like hate. I used to be the nominal uninformed Catholic and had several fundamentalist Baptist friends and things were always fine when nothing Catholic came up. They always attacked my faith in an unfriendly manner and I never had the Biblical answer to their attacks [1 Pet 3:15-16].
This all came to a head one Lent several years back when my fundamentalist friend and his wife invited my wife and I over for dinner where another fundamentalist couple was joining us. We knew that our Catholic practice of not eating meating on Fridays during Lent would cause problems so we told them we would eat at home and join them but they insisted and assured us that this would not cause a problem, when we arrived they were already heading out the door going to a restaurant that serves almost entirely meat dishes, we told them we could not go there and they went off telling us we needed to be flexible [they had already proven they were not] and there was a big stink and as a result three pizzas were ordered [one without meat] and they proceeded to eat over half of our green pepper pizza and then carry on about it as if it was some great undiscovered find ~ who would choose to eat a green pepper pizza anyway? Anyway, later it finally came out that they did not understand why we could not eat meat on Friday’s in Lent so rather than respect our traditions they chose to insult and attack them. This incident has caused much strain in our relationship but I must thank this individual for motivating to learn my Catholic faith. This is just one of many examples I have encountered. I was not raised in this way as a Catholic, I was told to respect all other Christian traditions. Just my experiences anyway …
Peace!! ![[Kiss]](graemlins/Kiss.gif)
Peace to you too RioLion!
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RioLion
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Whereas I would certainly agree with you that God is the God of both living and the dead (Mk 12:26-27), but in praying to someone God created, you are clearly praying to the creation and not the Creator. I do not think you will dispute that assertion.
Also, to say someone is or is not in heaven, you are clearly usurping the authority of God to judge both the living and the dead. Only God knows the heart, and it is often impossible to distinguish between genuine Christians and those that are professors - the wheat and the tares analogy (Mt. 13).
I see no explicit authority given to any church to make the determination as to who is or who is not saved. If you say that the Roman Church has the authority over the doors of heaven, then effectively the Roman Church has become your lord and savior.
The authority given to the apostles in loosing and binding does not apply to the salvation of others.
Again, I totally disagree with you that the Roman Church was given some kind of special mandate from God to make these kinds of determinations apart from the simple clear message of Scripture.
You have not provided any Scripture to justify prayers to the dead for intercession. All you have done is to indicate that the dead in Christ are alive with Christ. There is no indication that God has given them any functions regarding prayer. We are clearly being presumptuous in saying that our prayers are heard by the deceased in heaven.
pre•sump•tu•ous adj : overstepping due bounds : taking liberties - Merriam-Webster
It appears to me that if one prays to the saints deceased for intercession depicts a lack of trust or faith in God, the Good Shepherd who loves and cares more for us than any of His creation is capable of. If God is so loving and answers our prayers to His glory, then why bother with someone He has created? To me it would be a slap in His face to go elsewhere for His blessings.
Matthew 7:7-11 "Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. "For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened. "Or what man is there among you who, if his son asks for bread, will give him a stone? "Or if he asks for a fish, will he give him a serpent? "If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask Him!
Perhaps the Roman Catholic expects a snake or a stone when they place their request or petition before God? To many their god is too holy to be approached; an intermediary is required.
Furthermore, if Christ is our great High Priest and is the Intercessor that “is even at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us.” (Romans 8:34). Then who better to intercede for us than Christ Himself? I can see asking someone living to intercede for us as that may glorify God in answered prayer and in situations where we feel incapable of prayer.
Why does the Roman Catholic need other intercessors? I would suspect that most Roman Catholics have a much different concept of whom and what God is, in part because most lack a personal relationship with Christ. Perhaps they have never experienced His wonderful love while being born again in His Spirit. The Roman Church has relegated that experience to some kind of ritual effectively making themselves the author of ones salvation. Howbeit, in Biblical Christianity, that experience is one in which Christ enters the life of the person and he or she becomes a new creation under the power of the Holy Spirit. It is an experience one can testify about; something that is more than some pronouncement by some church after some manmade ritual.
2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.
I would suspect also that the Roman Catholic Church would like to limit prayer directly to God only to the clergy or their church hierarchy. But in Biblical Christianity, every regenerative person can approach God directly because Jesus is our great High Priest –
Hebrews 4:14-16 Seeing then that we have a great High Priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession. For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin. Let us therefore come boldly to the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy and find grace to help in time of need.
I believe God can also be approached by the repentant sinner for his salvation as drawn by the Spirit of God.
I notice also that Roman Catholics depend heavily upon rote prayers found in books. I told one Catholic lady that her prayers could be replaced by a tape recording or prayer wheel. One without the presence of the Holy Spirit in his or her life must do so because they lack the guidance of that Spirit. Prayer should be from our hearts; not from some book someone has written.
Romans 8:26-27 Likewise the Spirit also helps in our weaknesses. For we do not know what we should pray for as we ought, but the Spirit Himself makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. Now He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He makes intercession for the saints according to the will of God.
One final thought on this issue. By praying to someone deceased, you may very well open up yourself to demonic influence. Prayers to the dead are very common in the Mormon Church, in fact, it is the backbone of their prayer life.
Interesting that there are many parallels between Mormonism and modern Roman Catholicism. It is claimed by some that most converts to Mormonism are Roman Catholics. The head of the Newman Club at the U of North Dakota was my son's girl friend but after he refused to convert to Roman Catholicism, they parted. Later she married and converted to Mormonism which rather surprised my son.
I have some of those books you mentioned and have read them. I particularly like Scott Hahn and hope that people will take his advice to –
“Pick up the Scriptures daily and read them. They are the inspired and inerrant Word of God written for you, as the Catholic Church has consistently taught throughout the century, especially Vatican II. Believe wheat you read. Share it. Pray it. Memorize it. Soak in it, as in a warm tub! Learn it well so that you can live it more fully – and share it more joyfully. This is the way to make your faith infectious. We need more contagious Catholics!” Page 177 Rome Sweet Home, by Scott & Kimberly Hahn. Of course, the more people get into the Word of God; I believe that they will see that Roman Catholic doctrine has to be superimposed upon it if one wants to continue in the Catholic faith. It has been the Holy Spirit working through His Word that has lead many away from Roman Catholicism.
JESUS gave authority unto men and the Church:
[Isaiah 22:22, Revelation 3:7, Matthew 16:18-19, Matthew 9:8, Matthew 10:1, , Matthew 18:15-18, Matthew 23:2-3, Matthew 28:18-20, Mark 13:34, Luke 9:1-2, John 10:16, John 13:20, John 14:26, John 17:2, John 17:11, John 17:18-23, John 20:21, Acts 8:30-31, 2 Corinthians 10:8, Ephesians 1:22-23, Ephesians 4:13-15, 1 Corinthians 5:3-5, 1 Corinthians 12:25, 2 Thessalonians 2:15, 1 Timothy 1:19-20, 1 Timothy 3:15, 2 Peter 1:20, 2 Peter 3:16, Hebrews 13:17]
While it is certainly true that God has given authority to men and the church, He certainly did not given them a blank check. God, being sovereign has every right to remove authority and give it to another when that authority is abused. There is no indication that any authority given was of a permanent nature to be passed downward to successors; many of whom were evil and heinous men who abused the authority of their position.
Matthew 7:17-19 (KJV) Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
Matthew 12:33 (KJV)
Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.
And does those Scripture give anyone the authority to execute people who disagree with the church as in the Spanish and Roman Inquisitions? Interested in your views on that. Clearly that policy was eliminated by secular authority.
"There are not over a hundred people in the United States who hate the Catholic Church. There are millions, however, who hate what they wrongly believe to be the Catholic Church — which is, of course, quite a different thing." [Archbishop Fulton Sheen]
And there are millions of Christians that do not hate the Catholic Church but simply disagree with its doctrinal stands realizing that much of what the Roman Church believes is outside the boundaries of Scripture.
Peace!!
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by RioLion:
Are you equating "praying to the saints" to "invoking the spirits of the dead? ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
Yes, indeed for that is really what it is. When you pray to someone that is deceased, you effectively are invoking the dead in behalf of the living.
Remember, acquisition of information from the dead is forbidden in scripture [necromancy], you are equating two unlike things. The act of "praying to the saints" [asking the saints] is certainly NO ATTEMPT at acquiring information from the dead. Unless you can prove otherwise, your opposition to this practice is unwarranted.
I would like to compare the act of "praying to the saints" to something all Christians have done here on earth. Let me preface this with the fact that GOD is not the GOD of the dead but of the living [Mk 12:26-27]. The saints are not dead, in fact they are more alive than we are for they died in CHRIST and therefore remain branches of the vine of CHRIST, Catholics describe this reality as the "Communion of Saints" or the "Mystical Body of CHRIST". So as a Protestant, do you believe that once you die [even if you are in CHRIST] that you are cut off from His Body?This [praying to the saints] would be similar to someone here on earth sending a letter, an email, or a post on this very bulletin board where you ask a "holy" recipient [the ancient Catholic use of the word pray is "to ask"] to pray to the Lord JESUS CHRIST on your behalf. This request [supplication] does not demand a response and quite often the sender does not know if the prayer of that "holy" person [intercession] ever took place [1 Tim 2:1-5]. St. Paul states "First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men." and Catholics merely follow what St. Paul urged us to do.
Per the Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary,
Main Entry: sup·pli·cate
Pronunciation: 's&-pl&-"kAt
Function: verb
Inflected Form(s): -cat·ed; -cat·ing
Etymology: Middle English, from Latin supplicatus, past participle of supplicare, from supplic-, supplex suppliant --
more at SUPPLE
Date: 15th century
intransitive senses : to make a humble entreaty; especially : to pray to God
transitive senses
1 : to ask humbly and earnestly of
2 : to ask for earnestly and humbly
synonym see BEG
- sup·pli·ca·tion /"s&-pl&-'kA-sh&n/ noun
Biblical Christians are clearly on a more solid ground in praying only to God; not to His creation. They can easily see from Scripture that there is nothing that permits or commands us to pray to someone that is dead.
I have provided the many passages in scripture that illustrate the practice and acceptance of praying to the saints, that the saints are not dead and in fact they do intercede on our behalf. If you would like me to provide them again I can or you can simply search the "Different Denominations" and "Pope the Illuminist" threads for these quotes. As followers of CHRIST, we are not to expect that we can see everything that we are to believe as did the Apostle Thomas [the original "doubting Thomas"] but rather we are to led by faith and this would be an example of this.
As God is the judge both of the living and the dead, we simply have no authority to declare that anyone is or is not in heaven. To do so, is to usurp the authority of God Himself.
JESUS gave authority unto men and the Church:
[Isaiah 22:22, Revelation 3:7, Matthew 16:18-19, Matthew 9:8, Matthew 10:1, , Matthew 18:15-18, Matthew 23:2-3, Matthew 28:18-20, Mark 13:34, Luke 9:1-2, John 10:16, John 13:20, John 14:26, John 17:2, John 17:11, John 17:18-23, John 20:21, Acts 8:30-31, 2 Corinthians 10:8, Ephesians 1:22-23, Ephesians 4:13-15, 1 Corinthians 5:3-5, 1 Corinthians 12:25, 2 Thessalonians 2:15, 1 Timothy 1:19-20, 1 Timothy 3:15, 2 Peter 1:20, 2 Peter 3:16, Hebrews 13:17]
The Roman Church proclaims someone to be in heaven largely upon their allegiance to the Roman Church and based upon their alleged good works. But only God can know the heart as even a pagan or an imposter to the faith can be capable of good deeds. I do not see any authority given to the Roman Church to make such proclaimations.
As JESUS told us, we will know if the person is good by the fruit he produces.
Matthew 7:17-19 (KJV)
17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
Matthew 12:33 (KJV)
33 Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.
James McCarthy, the author of "The Gospel According to Rome" is a former Roman Catholic. This work gives one a good insight into what Roman Catholics today truly believe by comparing Scripture with the Catechism of the Roman Church. It is always a good idea to view both pro and con literature in the study of apologetics. ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
Yes indeed RioLion, it is good to look at both sides of the issue so it would be a good idea for you to read pro-Catholic sources like the Catechism of the Catholic Church, Dr. Scott Hahn, Tim Staples, Karl Keating, Stephen Ray, Jimmy Akin, David Currie, Thomas Howard, Paul Thigpen, Carl E. Olson, Steve Wood, Patrick Madrid, Peter Kreeft, Alan Schreck, Patty Bonds [sister of Protestant apologist James White], Alex Jones, Marcus Grodi, Mark Shea, Mark Brumley, Kenneth Howell, Jeff Cavins, Fr. Mitch Pacwa, Gerry Matatics, Robert Sungenis and Dave Armstrong. Many of these Catholic apologists are ex-Protestants that speak very fondly of their Protestant upbringings. Keep in mind though that just because James McCarthy claims to be an ex-Catholic, this does not mean that he understood correctly what the Church teaches and I suppose you could make the same argument for those on my list, but in general they do not speak negatively towards Protestantism.
"There are not over a hundred people in the United States who hate the Catholic Church.
There are millions, however, who hate what they wrongly believe to be the Catholic Church —
which is, of course, quite a different thing." [Archbishop Fulton Sheen]
Peace be with you.
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Are you equating "praying to the saints" to "invoking the spirits of the dead?
Yes, indeed for that is really what it is. When you pray to someone that is deceased, you effectively are invoking the dead in behalf of the living.
Biblical Christians are clearly on a more solid ground in praying only to God; not to His creation. They can easily see from Scripture that there is nothing that permits or commands us to pray to someone that is dead.
As God is the judge both of the living and the dead, we simply have no authority to declare that anyone is or is not in heaven. To do so, is to usurp the authority of God Himself.
The Roman Church proclaims someone to be in heaven largely upon their allegiance to the Roman Church and based upon their alleged good works. But only God can know the heart as even a pagan or an imposter to the faith can be capable of good deeds. I do not see any authority given to the Roman Church to make such proclaimations.
James McCarthy, the author of "The Gospel According to Rome" is a former Roman Catholic. This work gives one a good insight into what Roman Catholics today truly believe by comparing Scripture with the Catechism of the Roman Church. It is always a good idea to view both pro and con literature in the study of apologetics.
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Originally posted by RioLion:
Thank you for your comments on saints and the Roman Church canonization. Of course, it really a matter of definition. A saint according to another definition is simply a believer in
Christ; not necessary deceased.
The Catholic Church may define someone as a "saint" after they have passed on but as
scripture tells us, the saints are not dead for they are more alive than we are. The Church is aware of St. Paul's use of the word "saint" as applying to the living, but a saint even though
passed away is still living. It would be imprudent for the Church to define someone still living on earth as a "saint" for our salvation is not guaranteed, we can fall away and lose our
salvation.
"The Bible, on the other hand, refers to all true believers as saints by virtue of their position in Christ (Ephesians 1:1). They are 'sanctified in Christ Jesus, saints by calling' (1 Cor. 1:2). As for the Roman Catholic practice of the living invoking the spirits of the dead, it has more in
common with spiritism and divination, both condemned in Scripture, than with any Christian
practice (Deuteronomy 18:10-11)." The Gospel According to Rome, by James G. McCarthy', page 195
What do you mean "invoking the spirits of the dead"? Are you referring to necromancy?
Necromancy is the act of communicating with the dead in order to obtain information from them ... this is condemned by scripture and the Catholic Church. Are you equating "praying to the saints" to "invoking the spirits of the dead? I would not exactly call James McCarthy an unbiased source, if I remember correctly he is vehemently anti-Catholic.
Anyway that is an opinion I am sure is not acceptable to most Roman Catholics. I suppose
what bothers me about the Roman Church canonizing more and more 'saints' is that they will sooner or later have as many 'saints' to pray to as the Hindus do with their gods and goddess.
Mary and the rest of the saints are not gods to us, they are merely holy [guaranteed to be]
brothers and sisters in CHRIST that we pray to [to ask] so that they may pray on our behalf
to the Lord JESUS CHRIST ... this is the same as you asking a holy Christian you know to pray to JESUS on your behalf [the prayer of a righteous man availeth much]. There can be many intercessors as scripture tells us but there is only one mediator, the God man, our Lord
JESUS CHRIST through which all our prayers must pass. Remember, as a Catholic, I am not
REQUIRED to pray for the saints.
Also how does anyone in the Roman Church know that someone made it into heaven? I know
that there is some kind of criteria, but how valid is that criteria? ![[Confused]](confused.gif)
I do not know all the criteria involved [I am sure the criteria is published] but I have
confidence that those they defined as saints are as they said for JESUS gave His Church this
authority [whatever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever thou shalt
loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven].
One question that has been brought up over the years is whether the church consists of those
both living and dead.
The Catholic Church refers to this as the Mystical Body of CHRIST or the Communion of
Saints.
Of course, if those in heaven are capable of hearing our prayers is yet another question.
The question is not whether THEY are capable because we know they by themselves are not but as scripture tells us [through GOD all things are possible]. So if He wills it, then it shall be done.
The Lord that I have come to know is far more loving than any of His creation - dead or alive -
Of course, those in heaven are clean [as scripture states, "nothing unclean shall enter
heaven"] and are freed from any former tendency towards sin; therefore, the saints in heaven
are going to be as attentive as "humanly" possible, but all of there abilities to hear our prayers are due to GOD alone. GOD has shown in both the OT and NT that he likes to use phyical
things to perform miracles and convey graces, especially people, and the saints in heaven are
no exception.
and has been attentive to my prayers; making intercession mostly useless, except that in
asking others to intercede sometimes serves the glory of God.
"asking others to intercede" ... that is ALL we are doing when we pray to the saints.
The Roman Church, if I am not mistaken, believes that if someone is excommunicated, he is cut off from the grace of God, and therefore destined to hell. If that is true, then poor old King
Emmanuel, is enjoying his bath of fire. ![[crying]](graemlins/crying.gif)
It is true that if a Catholic knew that the truth was in the Catholic Church [the Church
JESUS founded], it being His Body where He is the head, but then still chose to turn away they would not be in a good situation because they in essence are turning from CHRIST.
The Church very rarely uses the authority of excommunication, especially nowadays, when I
think they should, especially in regards to pro-choice politicians who call themselves "Catholic".
The acceptance of abortion and the Catholic Church is incapatible and those who choose to promote that stance should be excommunicated and thus cut off from the sacraments.
I am not sure that excommunication is certain banishment to hell, especially if the individual
is unaware that they are in violation. One may be saved outside the Church through "invincible
ignorance".
Peace be with you.
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HuggyBear
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Matthew 10:26(MJKV) Therefore do not fear them, for there is nothing covered that shall not be revealed, and nothing hidden which shall not be known. ![[hyper]](graemlins/hyper.gif)
Matthew 7:16(MJKV) You shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thorns, or figs from thistles?
Matthew 7:17(MJKV) Even so every good tree brings forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree brings forth evil fruit.
Matthew 7:18(MJKV) A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruits, nor can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
Matthew 7:19(MKJV) Every tree that does not bring forth good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
![[Prayer]](graemlins/prayer.gif)
John 14:26(MKJV) But the Comforter, the Holy Spirit whom the Father will send in My name, He shall teach you all things and bring all things to your remembrance, whatever I have said to you.
Revelation 22:20(MKJV) He who testifies these things says, Yes, I am coming quickly, Amen. Yes, come, Lord Jesus.
--------------------
(1Corinthians 13:13) Right now three things remain: faith, hope, and love. But the greatest of these is love.
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Thank you for your comments on saints and the Roman Church canonization. Of course, it really a matter of definition. A saint according to another definition is simply a believer in Christ; not necessary deceased.
"The Bible, on the other hand, refers to all true believers as saints by virtue of their position in Christ (Ephesians 1:1). They are 'sanctified in Christ Jesus, saints by calling' (1 Cor. 1:2). As for the Roman Catholic practice of the living invoking the spirits of the dead, it has more in common with spiritism and divination, both condemned in Scripture, than with any Christian practice (Deuteronomy 18:10-11)." The Gospel According to Rome, by James G. McCarthy', page 195
Anyway that is an opinion I am sure is not acceptable to most Roman Catholics. I suppose what bothers me about the Roman Church canonizing more and more 'saints' is that they will sooner or later have as many 'saints' to pray to as the Hindus do with their gods and goddess.
Also how does anyone in the Roman Church know that someone made it into heaven? I know that there is some kind of criteria, but how valid is that criteria?
One question that has been brought up over the years is whether the church consists of those both living and dead.
Of course, if those in heaven are capable of hearing our prayers is yet another question. The Lord that I have come to know is far more loving than any of His creation - dead or alive - and has been attentive to my prayers; making intercession mostly useless, except that in asking others to intercede sometimes serves the glory of God.
The Roman Church, if I am not mistaken, believes that if someone is excommunicated, he is cut off from the grace of God, and therefore destined to hell. If that is true, then poor old King Emmanuel, is enjoying his bath of fire.
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Originally posted by RioLion:
In conclusion, I rather doubt that the present pope has anything to do with being an Illuminist. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
Thanks for your comment RioLion.
I understand that poor old Victor got excommunicated for his sin against Pope Pius IX - not considered a 'saint' by the Roman Church; in which case according to Roman Catholic theology, he is now in hell!
Just because the Catholic Church does not canonize someone a saint, it does not mean that that person went to hell. The Church has canonized some 8,000 - 10,000 saints in its 2000 year history, this certainly does not mean that there are only that many saints in heaven. There will be many saints in heaven that the Church did not officially canonize.
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In conclusion, I rather doubt that the present pope has anything to do with being an Illuminist.
Howbeit, the papacy has always sought power and influence as we see that they had trouble giving up their claims to the Papal States which was destroyed by the founder of modern Italy, Victor Emmanuel II. (I understand that poor old Victor got excommunicated for his sin against Pope Pius IX - now considered a 'saint' by the Roman Church; in which case according to Roman Catholic theology, he is now in hell!)
The popes had a lot of trouble accepting the demise of the Papal States. It was not until 1929 when they had a small courtship with Benito Mussolini that they finally relinquished their claims to the Papal States.
Of course, today we have Opus Dei which has been called by some the Vatican Mafia due to the shady nature of that organization. ![[youpi]](graemlins/youpi.gif)
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Originally posted by RioLion:
INRI - Here once again Catholics agree with you that JESUS is the one mediator between God and man. But like our Protestant brethern, we know that we can ask others to pray for us on our behalf to the Lord JESUS CHRIST [for the fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much]
But does scripture depict an intercessor in the same sense as a mediator? Is there a distinction? I believe so.
I think of an intercessor more as one who would offer "prayer or petition in favor of another" - [Webster's dictionary].
EXACTLY, that is exactly what saints are to us, intercessors. We ask or petition the saints [like any Protestant would do asking a holy person here on earth] to pray to our Lord JESUS CHRIST on our behalf [the prayer of a righteous man availeth much, nothing unclean shall enter heaven]. We are merely asking those members of the Body of CHRIST who we know to be holy [The Communion of Saints] to pray for us.
Whereas a mediator is one who would "act as an intermediary; esp : to work with opposing sides in order to resolve (as a dispute) or bring about (as a settlement) 2 : to bring about, influence, or transmit (as a physical process or effect) by acting as an intermediate or controlling agent or mechanism".
This is NOT the Communion of Saints. They are not resolving disputes, they are merely passing on petitions to our Lord [Rev 8:3-4].
Revelation 8:3-4 (KJV)
3 And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.
4 And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand.
Also, the saints are are disembodied souls so this is not a physical process, and the saints are not acting as a controlling agent [they are just passing prayers unto our Lord].
Christ is our mediator because our sinfulness beings us in direct opposition to God. Whereas, one that intercedes merely is one that acts in behalf of another, not usually because of our sinfulness but because of our physical or spiritual needs. We can intercede to the Lord for someone's needs but we can not act as a mediator.
Exactly, Catholics agree with you.
Interesting in pre-Vatican II Roman Catholicism, the patron saint of travelers, St. Christopher was thought to be an intercessor whereas after Vatican II, old St. Chris became no longer a saint but an "aint" as he was declared to be a myth along with a few other dudes.
He was removed from the Roman Catholic calendar
Of course, one can get a myth to intercede for us as truly the Roman Church is incapable of error when it comes to spiritual things!
The only myth here RioLion is your comment about St. Christopher. Once a saint, always a saint so if someone is elevated to the status of saint you can be assured that that will not change and the same is true for St. Christopher, he is still a saint. This is a common myth though. You must understand that there have been almost 10,000 saints declared by the Church so all of them cannot be on the calendar, so they have chosen to focus on those saints who were both popular and lead lives we know much about. St. Christopher unfortunately was a saint whose details surrounding his life were less certain than some others so he was removed from the calendar.
REFERENCES
The Catholic Encyclopedia - St. Christopher
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03728a.htm
Is St. Christopher no longer a saint? [Q/A]
http://www.saint-mike.org/Apologetics/QA/Answers/Faith_Spirituality/f0304300205.html
I hope this answered your question. Peace.
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INRI - Here once again Catholics agree with you that JESUS is the one mediator between God and man. But like our Protestant brethern, we know that we can ask others to pray for us on our behalf to the Lord JESUS CHRIST [for the fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much]
But does scripture depict an intercessor in the same sense as a mediator? Is there a distinction? I believe so.
I think of an intercessor more as one who would offer "prayer or petition in favor of another" - [Webster's dictionary]. Whereas a mediator is one who would "act as an intermediary; esp : to work with opposing sides in order to resolve (as a dispute) or bring about (as a settlement) 2 : to bring about, influence, or transmit (as a physical process or effect) by acting as an intermediate or controlling agent or mechanism".
Christ is our mediator because our sinfulness beings us in direct opposition to God. Whereas, one that intercedes merely is one that acts in behalf of another, not usually because of our sinfulness but because of our physical or spiritual needs. We can intercede to the Lord for someone's needs but we can not act as a mediator.
Interesting in pre-Vatican II Roman Catholicism, the patron saint of travelers, St. Christopher was thought to be an intercessor whereas after Vatican II, old St. Chris became no longer a saint but an "aint" as he was declared to be a myth along with a few other dudes. Of course, one can get a myth to intercede for us as truly the Roman Church is incapable of error when it comes to spiritual things!
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Interesting...
Then the practices of the Nicolaitans could very well have been the order of priesthood that establishes itself as a mediator between God and man, like the RCC does today.
Trafield,
It is dangerous to speculate about things we know little about [the NicoLaitans] or equate their practices with others [the Catholic Church]. We know very little about them.
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11067a.htm
The pope has a title "The Vicar of Christ" which actually means "THE spokesperson for Christ."
For what his title really means please refer to the Catholic Encyclopedia on "Vicar of Christ".
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15403b.htm
This is blasphemous. Christ speaks for Himself in His Word. So we do no not need to confess to priests,
JESUS gave to the Apostles [and their successors] the power to forgive sins ... here is an article that might explain this better.
http://www.catholic.com/library/Forgiveness_of_Sins.asp
since priests (including the pope) are all sinners, fall short of the glory of God, and cannot cleanse us of our sins.
Yes Catholics would agree with you that all have sinned [excluding the obvious exceptions of course]. The Church has never claimed the Pope to be "impeccable".
There is only ONE mediator between God and man,
Here once again Catholics agree with you that JESUS is the one mediator between God and man. But like our Protestant brethern, we know that we can ask others to pray for us on our behalf to the Lord JESUS CHRIST [for the fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much]. You no doubt refer to the words from St. Paul in 1 Timothy 2:5 but read the verses preceding this verse in context, in particular verse 1 where Paul exhorts us to supplications, prayers, intercessions and thansgiving be made for all men.
1 Timothy 2:1-5 (KJV)
1 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;
2 For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.
3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
Right there scripture tells us that intercession is an acceptable and requested form of normal orthodox Christian worship. This Catholics and Protestants both practice. We share more in common than you might think.
and only ONE worthy to wash away our sins, the Lord Jesus Christ. Praise his Holy Name!
Indeed, JESUS is the only one worthy; however, this does not take away from the fact that JESUS gave the Apostles the authority to forgive sins.
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Trafield
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quote:
Apparently it gives reference to when the church adopted a formal clergy or priesthood.
Interesting that Scripture nowhere mentions the office of priest outside of the OT, except for the priesthood of all believers. This has been a problem with some that have left the Roman priesthood - see "Far from Rome Near to God" by former priests Richard Bennett & Martin Buckingham.
Interesting...
Then the practices of the Nicolaitans could very well have been the order of priesthood that establishes itself as a mediator between God and man, like the RCC does today. The pope has a title "The Vicar of Christ" which actually means "THE spokesperson for Christ." This is blasphemous. Christ speaks for Himself in His Word. So we do no not need to confess to priests, since priests (including the pope) are all sinners, fall short of the glory of God, and cannot cleanse us of our sins. There is only ONE mediator between God and man, and only ONE worthy to wash away our sins, the Lord Jesus Christ. Praise his Holy Name! ![[clap2]](graemlins/clap2.gif)
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RioLion
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I rather doubt that the present pope is an Illumist or anything else that one could fear as he is both senile and in poor health.
It is the people behind the scenes that are really makin the decisions as I would surmise that the pope is near brain dead anyhow.
The Roman Church should wake up to the fact that there should be a retirement age for a pope.
His trip to Slovakia will probably be his last.
As for your comments on Nicolaitans,, my Scofield has the following note -
[1] (Nicolaitanes)
From nikao, "to conquer," and laos, "the people," or "laity." There is no ancient authority for a sect of the Nicolaitanes. If the word is symbolic it refers to the earliest form of the notion of a priestly order, or "clergy," which later divided an equal brotherhood #Mt 23:8 into "priests" and "laity." What in Ephesus was "deeds" #Re 2:6 had become in Pergamos a "doctrine #Re 2:15.
Apparently it gives reference to when the church adopted a formal clergy or priesthood.
Interesting that Scripture nowhere mentions the office of priest outside of the OT, except for the priesthood of all believers. This has been a problem with some that have left the Roman priesthood - see "Far from Rome Near to God" by former priests Richard Bennett & Martin Buckingham.
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becauseHElives
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N E W Y O R K, May 1 — In the early 1960s, America's top military leaders reportedly drafted plans to kill innocent people and commit acts of terrorism in U.S. cities to create public support for a war against Cuba.
This off Linda's topic a little bit, but I think it shows that there definitely a conspiracy going on and has been for some time,
also look into facts concerning World War II and prior knowledge by the president Roosevelt and top American political and military personal that Japan was planning to attack Pearl Harbor.
Read about Northwood Documents at
http://abcnews.go.com/sections/us/DailyNews/jointchiefs_010501.html
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
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conner
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...one thought, though...
Inri said - "...it is filled with unfounded conspiracy theories and rampant paranoia. "
...in Ephesians 6, Paul seems to imply that there is a valid basis for "conspiracy theories"...
12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
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conner
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...interesting stuff - is there a Cliff's Notes version available? - just too much to read at work - on my list for this weekend...
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INRI
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by helpforhomeschoolers:
INRI:
You and I have been here before; you seem to embrace the Catholic Church. I see it as apostate and perhaps the source of many being led down a path on which they will hear my LORD say "I never knew you". It makes me ill that much of the not western world sees the Roman Catholic Church as the "Christian Church" and judges Christianity according to the RCC.
I feel that that Catholic Church has been apostate since Paul's time; I see that the Roman Catholic Church holds among other things the Doctrine of the Nicolaitans that the Lord Jesus hates.
helpforhomeschoolers,
It is unclear to me your reasons why you feel that the Catholic Church went apostate immediately after Paul's time. Could you please tell me why? I assume that use the term "apostate" to mean "falling away from the truth"?
Also, I do not understand your claim that the Catholic Church follows doctrines of the Nicolaitans? The only thing I really know about them is that JESUS hates them, which is very bad.
The Catholic Encyclopedia has very little to say about them in that very little is known about them. Can you please tell me what you know about them and why you equate them with the Catholic Church?
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11067a.htm
Nicolaites
(Also called Nicolaitans), a sect mentioned in the Apocalypse (ii,6,15) as existing in Ephesus, Pergamus, and other cities of Asia Minor, about the character and existence of which there is little certainty. Irenaeus (Adv. haer., I, xxvi, 3; III, xi, 1) discusses them but adds nothing to the Apocalypse except that "they lead lives of unrestrained indulgence." Tertullian refers to them, but apparently knows only what is found in St. John (De Praescrip. xxxiii; Adv. Marc., I, xxix; De Pud., xvii). Hippolytus based his narrative on Irenaeus, though he states that the deacon Nicholas was the author of the heresy and the sect (Philosph., VII, xxvi). Clement of Alexandria (Strom., III, iv) exonerates Nicholas, and attributes the doctrine of promiscuity, which the sect claimed to have derived from him, to a malicious distortion of words harmless in themselves. With the exception of the statement in Eusebius (H. E., III, xxix) that the sect was short-lived, none of the references in Epiphanius, Theodoret etc. deserve mention, as they are taken from Irenaeus. The common statement, that the Nicolaites held the antinomian heresy of Corinth, has not been proved. Another opinion, favoured by a number of authors, is that, because of the allegorical character of the Apocalypse, the reference to the Nicolaitans is merely a symbolic manner of reference, based on the identical meaning of the names, to the Bileamites or Balaamites (Apoc., ii, 14) who are mentioned just before them as professing the same doctrines.
We will never see eye to eye on this matter. That is just the way it is. I dont have a problem with that.
helpforhomeschoolers,
You could be right about this, us having such diametrically opposed views but yet we both are Christians. I hope that doesn't mean that we still cannot discuss these issues that divide us because when you look at the larger picture and our belief in JESUS CHRIST as our Lord and Savior there is much indeed that unites us. Peace.
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helpforhomeschoolers
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INRI:
The work is not mine; it is an article I found. I posted it because it connects with the firt article I posted here, also not my work, but a subject some are interested in.
You and I have been here before; you seem to embrace the Catholic Church. I see it as apostate and perhaps the source of many being led down a path on which they will hear my LORD say "I never knew you". It makes me ill that much of the not western world sees the Roman Catholic Church as the "Christian Church" and judges Christianity according to the RCC.
I feel that that Catholic Church has been apostate since Paul's time; I see that the Roman Catholic Church holds among other things the Doctrine of the Nicolaitans that the Lord Jesus hates.
We will never see eye to eye on this matter. That is just the way it is. I dont have a problem with that.
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INRI
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helpforhomeschoolers,
In all charity, I glossed over your post [not sure if you wrote this or got this from someone else?] and from what I read it is filled with unfounded conspiracy theories and rampant paranoia. You start off your work taking quotes from a satanist! Like they are going to say anything objectively positive about the Church that stands in total opposition to them, the same goes for the Masons. Neither of these groups are compatible with Catholicism or any subsequent form of Christianity.
The spirit of ecumenism is not reducing religion down to a unified lowest-common-denominator, ecumenism is about spreading the one truth of Christianity as protected for 2000 years by the Church JESUS CHRIST our Lord and Savior established.
I believe these passages speak to the purpose of re-establishing a unified truth about our Lord and Savior JESUS CHRIST.
John 10:16 (KJV)
16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.
Ephesians 4:13-15(KJV)
13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:
helpforhomeschoolers, in all honesty and sincerity, the Catholic Church is not your enemy, after all, she gave you your favorite book, the Bible.
“For my part, I should not believe the gospel except as moved by the authority of the Catholic Church” St. Augustine
Peace be with you.
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helpforhomeschoolers
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THE UNITED RELIGIONS
“Alice Bailey, Foundress of the Lucifer Trust, the Theosophical and Satanist organization which lies behind UNESCO, predicted in 1919 the appearance of ‘a Universal Church’ of which ‘the definitive outline will appear toward the end of the century’ and which shall keep ‘the outward appearance amid the mission to strike out at the many vehicles of colloquial ecclesiastical usage.’...
“‘There will not be any dissociation between the Universal Church, the Sacred Lodge of all true Masons and the inner circles of the esoteric societies... In this way, the goals and work of the United Nations shall be solidified and a new Church of God, led by all the religions and by all of the spiritual groups, shall put an end to the great heresy of separateness.’ 1.
In June of 1995, an Interfaith Summit Conference was held in San Francisco for the purpose of “uniting the world’s religions into a global organization.” The United Religions Organization will be an international, inter-religious organization modeled after and affiliated with the United Nations. “According to its literature,” states W.B. Howard of Despatch Ministries, “the URO launched its written charter this past June 1997. The institution should be fully in place by June 2000 and globally operational by June, 2005.” 2.
As a U.N. liaison, the U.R. will “cooperate closely with the U.N. and its organizations to complement the U.N.’s political, diplomatic and social mandates, influence U.N. policy and support its programs.” It is scheduled to open its official headquarters at the world class Presidio in San Francisco in June, 2000. 3. At the Interfaith Conference, Anglican Bishop William E. Swing issued the challenge for a new global civilization:
“We stand on the threshold of a new world order that may be defined either by an increasing polarization that fuels a spiral of escalating conflict and violence, or by growing global cooperation that calls the human race to work across national, ethnic and religious boundaries to serve a larger global good.”
4.The Interfaith Summit proposal announced the agenda of a second State of the World Forum to be held in October under the leadership of former President of the Soviet Union, Mikhail Gorbachev: “The second State of the World Forum will have a strong focus on the spiritual and ethical dimensions of life. Specifically, it will pursue the development of ‘a common code of religious ethics…to allow for increased cooperation between religious institutions during this critical historical transition.’”
Perhaps a giant leap of faith will be required of mankind to fully appreciate the former Communist dictator’s reverence for the spiritual and ethical dimensions of life. Anticipating this development, British publisher Christopher Story and his associates conducted research into the activities and funding of the Gorbachev Foundation, which is also headquartered on U.S. government public land at the Presidio.
“The Gorbachev Foundation describes itself as working ‘toward a new civilization,’ Story said. It is starting a ‘united religions organization’ to be like a United Nations of religion, complete with a secretary-general, to be based at the Presidio. The goal is to ‘sanitize’ world religions and combine them with an appreciation of ‘Mother Earth’ for environmental purposes… The Foundation's philosophy is based on a game plan developed by a prominent Leninist for altering a country's values, noting that Mr. Gorbachev has said that Mrs. Gorbachev has been a student of this particular Leninist all her adult life.”
5. Sanitizing the Bible, Mr. Gorbachev interprets John 1:1, In the beginning was the word as “the word that would generalize and summarize the powerful achievements of the intellectual forces… This word should be spoken out.” 6.
And so, from the predeterminate counsels of the learned has come forth the volume of World Scripture--a composite of the major tenets of all faiths. 7. It is a model of the Rev. Sun Myung Moon's “Godism” which embraces the truths of all religions as being equally valid. From this mélange of beliefs “Ten Principles of World Religion” have been approved as universal ideals. In the new world order, these principles will provide a practical alternative to the narrow dogmatism of the Ten Commandments.
Concurrent with these global initiatives, another purveyor of Marxist doctrine and liberation theology, the World Council of Churches called for a Universal Christian Council in the year 2000. The ecumenical WCC issued a clarion call for “the main Christian traditions to start talks to settle outstanding differences, including the role of the papacy." Protestant churches across Europe are being pressured to "put aside their remaining national and confessional differences.” According to WCC general secretary, Konrad Raiser, Europe is rapidly moving towards a situation “where the traditional distinctions between different Protestant churches become irrelevant.”
8.Pope John Paul II has also predicted that there will be a unity of faith and that all religions will soon worship together. The May 31, 1995 edition of the San Francisco Chronicle reported:
“Pope John Paul II said yesterday that he is willing to seek agreement with other Christian denominations on the future role of the papacy.
The pope made his offer in a 115-page encyclical, ‘That They All May Be One,’ which is dedicated to the search for unity among Christian churches that split from each other during the past thousand years… The pope made clear he would not accept a symbolic papacy without teeth and that Rome would have to hold the primary place among Christians. He also said a pope should have the authority to make infallible declarations regarding the basic tenets of faith. 9.
Into what form will the United Religions Organization evolve? At the outset, the URO will be an ecumenical confederation or network of “denominations, cults, sects and religions... along similar lines to the United Nations - professing to share a common goal, yet still retaining their individual identities.”
“...we are envisaging a future coming together of denominations, cults, sects and religions of the world in such a way that they cooperate as a common body, along similar lines to the United Nations - professing to share a common goal, yet still retaining their individual identities.
“The most likely scenario in the years following this Parliament (of World Religions) will be the gradual formation of a 'World Council of Religion' which will function in a way similar to that of the present World Council of Churches or the United Nations...
“For example, at the Parliament of the World's Religions in Chicago in 1993, one of the main lectures was entitled 'A Proposal To Evolve the Parliament Toward a United Nations of Religions'. In this keynote speech, United Nations executive Dr. Robert Muller called for the establishment of a permanent World Council of Religion by 1995, along the lines of the United Nations.
Although a number of delegates were sceptical about the setting up of an actual World Council of Religion, it was generally felt that this Parliament brought the global interfaith movement one step nearer to much closer collaboration.
Dr. David Ramage, who chaired the Parliament, saw the next step as one of setting up centres of interfaithism in various key regions of the world and then networking relationships between them. However, others saw the setting up of a global religious council as a very real possibility during the next few years.”
10.This model of unity in diversity will characterize the United Religions Organization for a while; however, the final phase of the one world religion envisioned by Alice Bailey and fellow New Agers will be the full "end to the great heresy of separateness". The final religion will be the amalgamation of all religions into one -- pantheism, which means "one" or "unity":
"In 1800 [F. de Hardenberg] Novalis published a pamphlet, Europa or Christianity. This strange young poet, writing under the influence of Boehme and German pietists such as Count Zinzendorf, prophesied the future new church confidently. He begins, however, with an ideal picture of medieval Catholicism. Christian Europe had once been a fraternity of peoples bound together by one faith.
Protestantism had destroyed all this. Medieval Catholicism had been a positive, poetic, creative force; Protestantism was negative, critical, destructive--a dead-letter religion. The inevitable fruit was the French Revolution. But the mystical soul of Europe had remained hidden among the Illuminés and dissidents.
To this Novalis appeals in his vision of a new evangel, a new Messiah, a new church. For this regeneration of humanity he looks to the hidden workings of hidden associations all over Europe--Freemasons, Pietistics, Illuminists.
In particular, possibilities of the suppressed Jesuit order caught his imagination. But, for Novalis, the new church, although founded on Christianity, will move beyond all previous forms, the historic Christ yielding place to the new Messiah of Nature, for--under the influence of the romantic philosophy of nature--Novalis translates sacramental Christianity into pantheism.
Into this new church other peoples of the world, for they only await the resurrection of Europe to join and become citizens of the celestial kingdom. All dogmas and forms will be abolished, for the Holy Spirit will guide into all truth... Yet there must be a new bible, perhaps many, for one need not be bound to one gospel for all time.
'Is is not possible to conceive of the composition of several Gospels? Is one absolutely bound to one historical Gospel?... Is not a Gospel of the future possible?' So questioned Novalis, and it was a bible of this new genre that he planned to begin in his romance, Heinrich von Ofterdingen. He intended many volumes for the poet must carry the new religion to men. But his early death brought his vision to an end. Other near contemporaries among German romantics were thinking in the same vein." - 256:54-56
Given the ramifications of a global religious system modeled after the United Nations, which would be under the control of the papacy, and is designed to evolve into a universal religion of pantheism, it seems unthinkable that proposals for religious unity would also be arising from official quarters inside the evangelical community.
CELEBRATION 2000
Although Judson (Jay) Gary was not well-known, he had been highly respected and actively involved for many years in evangelical circles. Possessing seemingly impeccable credentials, Jay Gary was a powerful influence within the leadership of ministries such as Campus Crusade for Christ, Billy Graham's Lausanne Committee for Worldwide Evangelization [LCWE], the Global Consultation on World Evangelism [GCOWE], the March For Jesus, and Youth with a Mission. In 1994, Mr. Gary authored a book titled The Star of 2000: Our Journey Toward Hope 11., in which he proposed that Christians participate in the secular and religious Bimillennial celebrations of 2000 A.D.
A global celebration in honor of Jesus seemed at first a worthy undertaking. However, examination of Mr. Gary's other writings and presentations by discerning researchers disclosed a worldview that was thoroughly leavened with New Age thought.
Jay Gary's organization, the Bimillennial Global Action Network (B.E.G.I.N.), published a research report which promoted the Bimillennial celebration as a global event which would bring the entire world together for a celebration of life and hope for the beginning of a new civilization:
“We must recover the simple idea that the spark of eternity has been placed within each human being. We must fan this flame, this tiny spark within each person--and insure that no government, no group, or no authority is allowed to smother or snuff out this sacred flame… As early citizens of the 21st Century, we have a sacred duty to carry this torch across the length and breadth of the planet. Let's blow the Jubilee trumpet and herald this coming renaissance among government, education, arts, media, business, and religion.”
12.
One searches the Scriptures in vain for a “sacred flame” within each human being or a summons to Christians to celebrate with nonbelievers a “renaissance of religion.” Instead, the coming religious revival heralded by Jay Gary sounds ominously like MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT of Revelation 17 -- a world-wide resurgence of pagan religions which will persecute those who do not embrace the new spirituality, now defined as the “cosmic consciousness.”
Although Jay Gary was not a household name in the Christian community, many who endorsed The Star of 2000 and promoted Celebration 2000 were prominent evangelical leaders. Among these were Bill Bright of Campus Crusade for Christ, David Bryant of Concerts of Prayer, Dr. E. Brandt Gustavson, president of the National Religious Broadcasters Association and Dr. Paul Cedar, former president of the Evangelical Free Church of America and current chairman of Mission America.
The Promise Keepers’ magazine, New Man, also favorably reviewed Gary's book and encouraged Christian men to participate in Celebration 2000. 13. In their headlong pursuit of a new millennium of peace and unity, these and other pseudo-Christian ministries seem unaware of the prophetic warning of end-time apostasy. (II Thess. 2:3)
Working closely with Jay Gary's organization in preparation for the Bimillennial celebration, was Robert Muller, former Assistant Secretary-General of the United Nations. Mr. Muller is a New Age spiritualist and the author of several books proposing a new global spiritual order. More importantly, Muller is the author of the World Core Curriculum, which is designed to “steer our children toward global citizenship, earth-centered beliefs, socialist values and the collective mindset which is becoming a requirement for the 21st century workforce.”
14. According to The Robert Muller School, the World Core Curriculum is based on the works of Theosophist, Alice Bailey, which she channeled through the Tibetan Master, Djwhal Khul:
“The World Core Curriculum is based upon a Cosmic view of the individual and our planet, so that the individual student has a perspective which gives a valid context within which the student finds him/herself in life, and can easily understand human development within that context. I.e., the student is taught about
1) his planetary home and place in the Universe, 2) The human species as a whole and his place in it,
3) his place in time [history], and
4) the miracle of individual human life.
“The Alice Bailey books/or the books of the Tibetan Teacher, Djwhal Khul, present the details of that context, (which can be recognized as fact in the life experience of the student).
It is for every teacher who implements the World Core Curriculum to decide how much of that detail to include, depending upon the culture in which it is being presented. These books include an entire Cosmology; The World Core Curriculum can be, and usually is, implemented as only part of the Cosmology. Hopefully, in the future, more will be incorporated for the benefit of the world’s children.
“Above all else, The World Core Curriculum is a Curriculum which can be flexible regarding the detail, with the exception that nothing is presented to the student which the student will have to ‘unlearn’ as his/her life progresses. The student is given all academic material within an honest appraisal of how it fits into the student's culture and life. The student is never left with a doubt as to how or whether the knowledge imparted will be useful in his/her life. The student is considered a contributing part of the vast inseperable (sic) Universe and is shown how his own creativity might add to the beauty of the Whole.
“The details in the Bailey/Tibetan's books require considerable study and application before a teacher is capable to work with children in the highest consciousness, or ‘from the Soul.’ This is why there is so much failure among the many attempts to implement the Curriculum. Those who have the spiritual courage to ‘keep on keeping on,’ however, are bound for success!” 15.
In his book, The Star of 2000, Jay Gary liberally and favorably quotes Robert Muller and other New Age leaders such as David Spangler, Matthew Fox, Brian Swimme and Thomas Berry. Presumably Mr. Gary believes that their worldview and concept of “Christ” are a valuable contribution to Christianity. However, these men do not believe the Gospel nor do they preach the Lord Jesus Christ of the Bible, but rather a counterfeit messiah who will bring humanity into a golden age of spiritual renaissance and global harmony.
Jay Gary’s Bimillennial Research Report called the year 2000 A.D. “a huge magnet hung in time” – “the end of history and the beginning of a global civilization of peace and prosperity.” This was also the year marked by New Agers as the beginning of the Age of Aquarius and the end of the Age of Pisces or the Christian era -- a watershed year that would witness the unification of all religions and the appearance of the “Cosmic Christ.” The New Age Movement believes and teaches that “Christ” will come as each person reaches the “universal consciousness” of the divine presence within himself and realizes his potential for personal godhood. This spiritual awakening would be a “Planetary Pentecost” which, in the evolutionary plan, will supersede repressive and “backwards looking religious institutions…which no longer serve or satisfy needs.” 16.
New Age leader Barbara Marx Hubbard is Robert Muller’s ideal of the true 21st century woman. Ms. Hubbard has stated, “there is an anti-evolutionary cadre of orthodox believers who focus on the limits of this life and the unworthiness of human nature. Now they would destroy our capacity to transcend…” 17. Hubbard and other New Age leaders, such as David Spangler and Marilyn Ferguson, have projected “that for planetary transformation to take place, up to one quarter of the inhabitants of the earth will have to be excised like a cancer.” 18. Scripture confirms this projection -- prior to the return of Jesus Christ, there will be a unified world religious system, the Great Harlot Church, which will require universal allegiance to one spiritual leader. Those who refuse to obey the directive to worship an image will be killed. (Rev. 13:11-15; 17:6; also 6:8)
MYSTERY BABYLON
Revelation 17:5 portrays the Great Harlot as the last religious system in the age-old sequence of mystery religions (first cited in Genesis 11) intoxicated from indulging in abominable practices and persecution of the righteous: “MYSTERY BABYLON, THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH. And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus...”
Revelation 17:9 indicates that the global religious system will initially be led by Rome: “And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.” The headquarters of the Catholic Church are located in Rome, the city on seven hills. The Book of Revelation, however, subsequently describes the overthrow and destruction of this harlot religious system by the world government, which intends to remove all vestiges of Christianity from its one world religion:
And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast. These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast. These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful. And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the ***** sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues. And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the ***** , and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire. Rev. 17:12-17
A brief history will be useful here to understand the centuries of conflict and hatred that lead to the demise of the Roman Church. Conceived in the 4th century as an ecumenical venture to bring about peaceful coexistence between Christianity and the pagan religions of the Roman Empire, the Roman Church in alliance with the monarchies of Europe was able to preserve at least a measure of Christian orthodoxy against the onslaught of gnostic cults which assumed various disguises during the Middle Ages. The Inquisitions of this period were in part directed against the purveyors of the occult traditions -- the precursors of Freemasonry -- whose presence and activities threatened to destroy what was left of orthodox doctrine in Western Europe.
During the period of the Renaissance, the twelfth through fourteenth centuries, Europe was flooded with occult traditions under the veneer of revival of arts and the refinement of culture. According to James Webb, author of The Occult Underground, interest in the occult, magic and astrology became a substitute for orthodox faith. Note Webb’s reference to “the New Man of the Renaissance”:
“In other words, the material of the occult Traditions, whether in the rarified form of Metaphysical speculation, or in the practical manifestation of magic, was common currency. This resulted from a period of uncertainty during which both the cultivated and the uncultured alike were searching for a departed security. The New Man of the Renaissance, liberated from his prison of the Middle Ages, flexed his muscles, and tried them on the Traditions... The figure of the Renaissance man is not complete if the place of the Magician is forgotten. Ficino was scholar, priest, and magician.” 19.
Marsilio Ficino, founder of the Academy of Florence in 1462, incorporated Platonic literature and the Hermetic sciences - astrology, alchemy and magic -- with Scripture. Professing a Christian form of Neo-Platonism, “Ficino - who turned priest in 1473 - had conceived of Hermes and Plato as aids to persuading those to religion who would not accept Scripture alone.” 20. In a limited way, the Catholic Church permitted theories deriving from Plato and Neo-Platonism as a secular support for religious doctrine. The source of the Neo-Platonist doctrine purveyed by Ficino and the Renaissance scholars were the occult traditions of ancient Greece:
“Another source from which occultists have drawn their Secret Tradition is the school of speculation called Neo-Platonism. It has been argued that the seeds of Neo-Platonic doctrine were sown by Plato himself; but it is equally possible that the originators were his first-generation pupils in the Academy of Athens. Even the 'magico-religious' complexion of Neo-Platonism seems to have sprung from the Academy, where there was an interest in demonology and occult phenomena...” 21.
Opening another door for the occult invasion of Europe was the Vatican's creation in 1118 A.D. of the Order of the Temple, which conducted the First Crusade to recapture the Holy Land from the Moslems. During its occupation of Jerusalem, the Knights Templar were exposed to the black arts of the Babylonian traditions, which later took form as the Jewish Kabbalah adopted by the Templars adopted as the basis of their creed and practice. Due to their departure from Christian orthodoxy, the Vatican officially disbanded and disowned the Order of the Temple in 1309-13 A.D. The Inquisitions ensued eliminating vast numbers of heretics, i.e., the Knights Templar and Kabbalists, as well as the Cathari, Waldensians and Albigensians -- gnostic cults which are now being misrepresented as “Christian” by those who would revive the gnostic heresy.
Survivors of the papal tribunals perpetuated the occult traditions in an underground movement ruled by a secret elite, the Prieuré de Sion. The Knights Templar relocated to Scotland and resurfaced later in Europe as Rosicrucianism and Freemasonry. In affiliation with the Kabbalists, the Prieuré de Sion formed a network of secret societies throughout Europe whose raison de être became revenge, revolution and world domination. This megalomaniac ambition would design and implement a plan for the systematic destruction of the Holy Roman Empire and establishment of a society in the New World which the secret societies might control. A rough chronology of events in the 18th century reveals the success of their Plan:
1717 The Masonic Grand Lodge of England was founded.
1721 The First Masonic Lodge was founded in France.
1731 Benjamin Franklin was initiated as a Freemason.
1736 Chevalier Alexander Ramsey, spokesman for Charles Radclyffe who established Scottish Rite Freemasonry, informs French Masons that they are heirs to to Templar tradition.
1738 The Roman Catholic Church condemns Freemasonry.
1758 Sir Francis Dashwood founds the Hell-Fire Club. Benjamin Franklin visits England to discuss the future of American colonies with Dashwood.
1768 Foundation of the Rite of the Strict Observance (33º) by Baron von Hund, based on the Templar tradition. Frederick of Prussia founded the Order of the Architects of Africa and uses title "Illuminati" to describe his neo-Masonic lodges.
1770 Benjamin Franklin was elected Grand Master of the Nine Sisters lodge in Paris.
1771 Grand Orient Masonry was founded in France
1776 Order of Perfectibilists or Illuminati was founded. The American Revolution.
1778 Peter I founded the Secret Circle.
1785 Grand Masonic Congress allegedly plotted the French Revolution. The Illuminati was banned in Bavaria and went underground.
1789 The French Revolution.
1784 Illuminist conspiracy to overthrow the Hapsburgs, monarchs of the Holy Roman Empire.
Control of the Roman Catholic Church was, from the outset, a crucial objective of the Masonic plan. According to a Catholic source, Real Catholicism, the success of their design has been not less than stunning:
“As noted last issue, subversion from within became Masonry’s chosen approach to the Catholic Church. In France they were particularly successful. Between 1778 and 1790 some 27 French lodges boasted priests as their Worshipful Grand Masters; no less than 13 clerics appeared on the rolls of the Nine Sister lodge, and one lodge was composed entirely of Benedictine monks.
“A century ago the secret societies were able to boast of 'more than eight hundred priests, among whom are many professors and prelates as well as some Bishops and Cardinals' in Rome. Martinez notes that 'according to reliable Masonic sources, Fr. Mastal-Ferreti who would become Pope Pius IX was reportedly admitted to the Eterna Catena Lodge of Palermo in 1837 at the age of 46 [Hertz disputes this contention]. Ten years later as Pope he was granting a general amnesty to the most revolutionary of all the Brotherhood, the Carbonari, even as he was intervening to halt the work of the French Jesuit, Jacques Cretineau-Joly, whom Gregory XVI had put to work investigating Masonic activity in the Papal States' (The Undermining of the Catholic Church, p. 30). After two years in exile, Pius IX was a changed man; on his return, he reinstated Fr. Cretineau-Joly and dedicated himself to defending the Church against her enemies.
“In the United States, founded as it was upon Masonic principles, ‘infiltration’ is hardly the appropriate word. Charles Carroll, a high ranking Mason and relative of the USA’s first Bishop, had been the only Catholic to sign the Declaration of Independence. By 1895, Archbishop Ireland could tell the French: 'I believe that a divine mission has been assigned to the Republic of the United States. That mission is to prepare the world, by example and moral influence, for the universal reign of human liberty and the rights of man’ (cited in Utopia, p. 113).”
22. The Roman Catholic Church has periodically been infiltrated and controlled by its archenemy, International Freemasonry. In our own century, these powerful secret societies now control the Vatican.
A Catholic publication, The Church in Eclipse, reveals the high intrigue behind the election of Pope John XXIII, the Pope of the Council, referring to Vatican II which radically altered the course of Roman Catholicism:
“In 1977, Franco Bellegrandi, ex-Chamberlain of the Cape and the Sword of His Holiness and contributor to L’Osservatore Romano, wrote a book titled, NikitaRoncalli, which was published in 1994, accompanied by quite a commotion in the national press at its release because, among the persons present was Cardinal Silvio Oddi.
“In this book, he told what he had seen and heard at the Vatican. It was in September 1958, just before the Conclave, the author was privy to some confidential information:
“I was in a car with a person whom I knew to be a highly placed Mason who was in contact with the Vatican. He said to me: ‘The next Pope will not be Siri, as the gossip has it in certain Roman circles, because he is too authoritarian a cardinal.
A conciliating Pope will be elected. He has already been chosen, and is the Patriarch of Venice, Roncalli,’ To this I replied: ‘Are there Masons in the Conclave?’ ‘Certainly,’ he said. ‘The Church is in our hands.’ After a brief silence, my interlocutor said, ‘No one can say where the leader can be found. The leader is hidden.’” ["The Pope of the Council: John XXIII & Masonry", Sodalitium, Oct./Nov. 1996]
The present pope, John Paul II, is believed by many informed Catholics to be a member of Opus Dei, a modern form of Catharism. A Catholic publication associates John Paull II with the Polish Messianist, Adam Mickiewicz, describing Mickiewicz as “an Anabaptist of the French school,” “of the “spiritual posterity of Joachim of Fiore,” and of Jacob Böhme, a Martinist signifying “fullblown Masonry, and even full blown Jewish Cabalism,” and “among the most dangerous thinkers of ‘Masonic-Christian’ esotericism.” Adam Mickiewicz prophesied that the Church of St. Peter would be replaced by the Church of St. John -- John the Baptist and John the Divine being the patron saints of Freemasonry:
“On the evening he was elected, October 16, 1978, from the Balcony of St. Peter’s in Rome, Cardinal Karol Wojtyla, now John Paul II, saluted Mickiewicz, as a witness of the Catholic faith and of freedom. And in far-off Krakow, which the exiled poet was never able to see, there were ‘processions celebrating the Pontifical electio by honoring the heroes of Polish history signifying to us that from Adam Mickiewicz to Karol Wojtyla there is the continuity of the same hope which history has finally seemed to smile upon.’” (La Croix, 27/10/1978) (1) ... But who was Mickiewicz?
“...for Mickiewicz, (Towianski) became like ‘a messenger from God.’ ‘For the next three years, the last two being spent at the College of France, Mickiewicz made himself the herald of Towianism.’ (pp. 253-25) [sic] Towianski was an adept of ‘messianism,’ a current begun by Hoëné-Wronski (1778-1853) ‘who wound up believing that he was charged with announcing ‘the end of Christianity.’’ [p. 251].
Also messianists were two famous men of Polish letters, Zygmunt Karsinski (1812-1859) and Auguste Cieszkovski (1814-1894): the first ‘announced that the Church of Peter was approaching its end, like all of the old order,’ the second ‘announced the opening of the third and last age of history: after antiquity, which was the age of the Father and [then] Christianity, which was the age of the Son, there would be the age of the Holy Spirit, who by bringing about the unity of human and Divine will, would install the Kingdom of God on earth; then the ‘fullness of nations’ that had been announced by St. Paul, would be fulfilled’ (pp. 250-51).
“As for Towianski, in his humility, he believed he was, after Napoleon, (10) the third epiphany of Christ, the predestined leader who to be born of a nation, Poland, martyr and redemptor like Christ. He was the ‘griséand occultist of mystical literature; perhaps he was initiated into many secret societies’ (p. 252).
“The following well summarized Mickiewicz’ ideas on the Church: ‘It was January 16, 1844. Never since its founding had any of those attending the College de France ever heard anything like it from one of its Chairs….That day, the historian of Slavic literature [Mickiewicz], proclaimed his Catholic vision.’ Mickiewicz recounted to the students the legend written by Krasinski four years before: (18)
“Christmas. At St. Peter’s in Rome, the Pope says Mass surrounded by tired old men. Suddenly in their midst a young man dressed in purple: it is the Church of the future, in the person of John. (19) He tells the crowd of pilgrims that the times are fulfilled, then, going to the tomb of the head of the Apostles, he calls him by his name and orders him to leave the tomb. The corpse rises and cries out: ‘Bad luck!’ Then, the cupola of the Basilica cracks open and splits. The young Cardinal asks, ‘Peter, do you recognize me?’ The corpse replies, ‘Your head rested on the breast of the Savior, and have never died. I know you.’ Peter goes back into the tomb, after having given his place to John.
“The Polish pilgrims, out of fidelity, die under the ruins of St. Peter’s Basicila. ‘Peter has died forever. The Roman Church is finished, its last faithful are dead. The break is complete." Mickiewicz recaptures Krasinski’s allegory but he changes it at the end. The Polish peasants who ‘are looking for the Church of the future’ do not perish under the ruins, but save the Church. ‘They,’ ----and these are Mickiewicz’s words----‘shall open this cupola to the light of heaven, so that it looks like that pantheon of which it is a copy;’ (20) so that it may be the basilica of the universe, the pantheon, the pan-cosmos and pandemic, the temple of all spirits; so that it gives us the key of all of the traditions and all of the philosphies…’(p. 271). ”
The ultimate objective of the universal brotherhood of secret societies is the destruction of, not only the Roman Church, but of orthodox religion in general and the reestablishment of the ancient mystery religions. Having vanquished all forms of orthodoxy, and hijacked the Roman Catholic Church as a front for its ecumenical designs, International Freemasonry will use the papacy to achieve its takeover of the world religions and establishment of the final one world religion -- a return to the ancient mystery religions of Babylon. When the Beast has exploited the Harlot Church, it “shall hate the ***** , and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.” (Rev. 17:16)
According to Holy Blood, Holy Grail, the Prieuré de Sion proposes that, in place of the Roman Catholic pope, a priest-king of divine descent will be the “patriarch of an international church.” The Prieuré envisions: “…a theocratic United States of Europe - a trans- or pan-European confederation assembled into a modern empire and ruled by a dynasty descended from Jesus. This dynasty would not only occupy a throne of political or secular power, but quite conceivably the throne of Saint Peter as well...” 23. For a more extensive treatment of this most important subject, the reader is referred to The Rosicrucian Connection: The Vatican vs the Prieuré de Sion.
THE CULT OF ‘THE VIRGIN
In July of 1995, religious leaders from 26 countries and the Vatican met in Baghdad, in ancient Babylon, to promote “brotherly relations between Muslims and Christians.” Pope John Paul II, whose papacy is dedicated to Mary, i.e., the Black Virgin, is currently working to negotiate an agreement with the Muslim world. The October 1996 Catholic World Report recounted Yasser Arafat's “long closed-door session at the Vatican with Secretary of State Cardinal Sodano,” 24. The Palestinian post office issued stamps featuring the Palestinian flag, Bethlehem at Christmas time and “a beaming Palestinian Authority President Yasser Arafat posing with Pope John Paul II.” 25.
More recently, in February of 2000, the Pope paid a visit to Egypt. See: Back to Egypt. The Papal News Service then stated, "Christianity and the world’s culture owe much to the Church of Egypt.”
"For the first time, a Roman Catholic pope is going to the land of the pharaohs. John Paul II will visit Egypt Feb. 24-26 as part of a series of trips to biblical sites in 2000, Reuters said. He will meet with government and religious leaders, including President Hosni Mubarak, Coptic Orthodox Pope Shenouda, and the country's top Islamic leader. The pope will celebrate Mass in the Catholic Coptic Cathedral in Cairo, then visit the monastery of St. Catherine in the Sinai desert, thought to be near the site where Moses received the Ten Commandments." 26.
The monastery of St. Catherine is the Catholic convent where Constantin Tischendorf, the German textual critic and 'first Bible critic in Europe', discovered the Alexandrian manuscript, Sinaiticus Aleph, which was used along with the Vaticanus as the basis for the Westcott-Hort New Greek Text. which underlies modern translations of the Bible. The impression given by modern textual critics and the Vatican press is that Mt. Sinai is in Egypt; however, Scripture, referring to the giving of the Mosaic Law, states that Mt. Sinai is in Arabia: "For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia..." (Gal. 4:25)
The Pontifical Society for the Propagation of the Faith [Fides News Service] stated, "The Pope will visit Sinai and encourage Egypt’s hope." What is Egypt's hope? The Illuminati ceremony in Egypt during the Solar Eclipse of August 11, 1999 is purported to have invoked the Dark Mother, known as Isis in Egypt and various goddesses also called the Black Madonna or Black Virgin.
The Templar Revelation identifies Isis as the Black Madonna, on no less authority than a former head of the Priory of Sion: "The Black Madonna cult is central to the Priory [of Sion]... To them at least, there is no doubt about the significance of the Black Madonna. Pierre Plantard de Saint-Clair writes explicitly, 'The Black Virgin is Isis and her name is Notre Dame de Lumiere [Our Lady of the Lights]." 27.
Vatican insider, Dr. Malachi Martin has said that, based on a message of Mary in a personal visitation, John Paul believes, “There will come a day, when the heart of Islam – already attuned to the figures of Christ and of Christ’s mother, Mary -- will receive the illumination it needs … a second Fatima … in which they will recognize him as God's vicar on earth … Then with fellow travelers like the Church of England, the Episcopal Church, and others of like mind, the pope could be worshipped as the infallible holy father by over one-half of the world's population.” 28.
In her book, New Age Bible Versions, Gail Riplinger offers the following possible explanation for the Vatican's hope of unification with Islam:
“New Ager Madeline L’Engle’s book, A Cry Like a Bell, suggests that ‘the Virgin may be the focal point of worldwide ecumenical unity.’ Almost 100 years ago, religious historian Alexander Hislop concluded that ‘the Virgin’ would be the ‘image of the beast’ worshipped during the great tribulation…the image of ‘the Virgin’ is the universal icon of pantheism. Consequently, this goddess could be the yoke pulling pantheists (i.e., Hindus, animists, Buddhists, Native Americans) and non-pantheists (Muslims, Catholics) to the altar of the false prophet. Visions of virgins are occurring worldwide and are not the exclusive ‘channel’ of one religious sect. Recently, just a few miles from Cairo, Egypt, hundreds of thousands of Muslims have traveled to see a ‘luminous something’ hovering in the sky above the Church of the Virgin. The vision, appearing frequently over a three year period, was front page material in the Arab press. The Muslims, joined by the Coptic ‘Christian’ Church hierarchy, view this as a ‘messenger from God.’” 29.
The Council of Trent was held from 1545-1563 in an attempt to arrest the progress of the Protestant Reformation. This Council denied every Reformation doctrine, including that of “Scripture alone” and “grace alone” and also upheld the worship of Mary and the images of saints in blatant violation of the second commandment, “Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD they God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me…”
At the opening of the Second Vatican council in 1969, Pope John XXIII stated, “I do accept entirely all that has been decided and declared at the Council of Trent.” During Holy Week ceremonies in 1984, Pope John Paul II dedicated the whole world to Mary, having credited her with saving his life from the serious wound he received in the 1982 assassination attempt.
In later Catholic tradition, apparitions of Mary have been accorded the honor that should be given to Scripture, even when they contradict Scripture and each other. “Mary of Fatima denied the sufficiency of the Cross by stating that we should 'make sacrifices for sinners, for many souls go to hell because they have no one to sacrifice themselves and to pray for them'…yet, Mary of Medjugorje stated, 'God does not punish anyone. He does not have to! …When a man dies, God gives him special graces and blessings to decide where he should go himself.’” 30.
The Medjugorje and other Marian apparitions have revealed to Catholic visionaries that there will soon be a sign of a luminous red cross in the sky followed by Three Days of Darkness when all demons are released from hell. The demons will destroy all who do not remain in their homes, praying the rosary and kneeling before a crucifix, after they sprinkle holy water around doors and windows and light blessed candles. Faithful Catholics may not even open the door for their own children! 31. These cosmic events do seem to correspond to the Tribulation judgments described in Revelation 9. However, verses 20-21 state:
"...the rest of men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk: neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries..."
These practices are the very sins which “Our Lady” encourages -- proving that the source of these spirits is not God, but Satan. Thus, the Marian prophecies are establishing a false doctrine which will prevent Catholics from repenting near the very end of the Great Tribulation and preparing them for judgment at Lord’s coming. Roman Catholic emphasis upon Mariolatry with apparitions and unbiblical messages is in fact the channeling of demon spirits, akin to the contacting of spirit guides such as Djwhal Khul by New Agers like Alice Bailey. One New Ager has stated:
“The mystical traditions in the mainline denominations easily interact with those of the heathen religions of the world. Meditation practices, ‘visualization’ techniques, and breathing exercises are now being used to ‘tap into’ the spiritual realm. In this, such religious leaders as the Pope and the Dalai Lama (Buddhist high priest) are very much on the same plane.” 32.
Joining the mystical procession into delusion, mainstream Protestant denominations assembled for “Re-imagining 1993.” This conference, held in November of 1993, was devoted to feminist theologians “destroying traditional Christian faith, adopting ancient pagan beliefs, rejecting Jesus’ divinity and His atonement on the cross, creating a goddess in their own image (Sophia -- a pagan counterpart of Mary), and affirming lesbianism”…and the worship of nature. 33.
Deuteronomy 18:10-14 forbids the practice of heathen customs or fellowship with those who do them. In Revelation 18:4, God speaks expressly to his own people, “Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.” Ephesians 5:11 and II Corinthians 6:14-18 also clearly state that Christians may have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness. However, our pluralistic culture views religious separation as 'intolerant' and rewards the ecumenical mindset as politically correct. Conforming to the world rather than the Word, evangelical leaders such as Pat Robertson and Francis Frangipane have called visions of Mary and animated statues “manifestations from God.” Frangipane believes that, had the message of Medjugorje to forgive Muslims been obeyed, the war in Bosnia would have been averted. 34. Does it not occur to Mr. Frangipane that this slaughter could be God’s judgment on a nation that has consulted with familiar spirits? (Deut. 18:11, 12)
Contrary to roseate predictions of revival and global peace, Matthew 24 and other prophetic passages foretell that, as the end draws near, wars and deception will be raging as the world thoroughly degenerates into paganism, rather converting to Christianity. With this record and numerous signs of the rapid fulfillment of end-time Bible prophecy, evangelical leaders who are preaching ecumenical unity should rather be alerting Christians to the apostate church that is presently forming, which precisely corresponds to the description of MYSTERY BABYLON given in Revelation.
EVANGELICALS & CATHOLICS TOGETHER
One formal declaration boldly documents the Evangelical and Catholic commitment to work together to evangelize and bring about social reform in the world. The Evangelicals and Catholics Together: The Christian Mission in the Third Millennium 35. has, in effect, laid the groundwork for Evangelicals to set aside their distinctive doctrines and unite with the Catholic Church and other religions which are coming together by 2000 A.D.
The ECT Document was authored and presented in May of 1994 by Charles Colson of Prison Fellowship and Roman Catholic priest, Richard John Neuhaus. In 1993, Chuck Colson was the recipient of the $1,000,000 “Prize for Progress in Religion,” presented annually by New Age financier, John Templeton. Prison Fellowship International boasts of its Special Consultative Status as a non-governmental organization (NGO) of the United Nations. Father Richard Neuhaus is the director of the Institute on Religion and Public Life -- a Roman Catholic priest who, as former Lutheran and a seminary student, rejected the doctrine of justification by faith in Jesus Christ. 36.
The ECT Document was signed by 20 Catholic leaders and 20 Evangelical leaders including Dr. Bill Bright of Campus Crusade for Christ, (Bright is also a member of the secretive Council for National Policy), Pat Robertson, President of CBN and member of the CNP, J. I. Packer of Christianity Today, Richard Land and Larry Lewis of the Southern Baptist Convention (a denomination controlled by Freemasons), Jesse Miranda of Assemblies of God (which attends ecumenical meetings with the World Council of Churches and Roman Catholic Church), Dr. John White, President of Geneva College and President of the Board of Administration of the National Association of Evangelicals (which evolved from the Evangelical Alliance formed in 1851 in United Grand Lodge of England), Os Guiness of Trinity Forum and Dr. Mark Noll of Wheaton College.
Supporters of The Evangelicals and Catholics Together Document maintain that it is not a statement of theological agreement, but of unity for the cause of moral and social reform. However, ECT states, “Evangelicals and Catholics are brothers and sisters in Christ.” And “existing divisions that obscure the one Christ and hinder the one mission of the Church” are confessed as “sins against the unity that Christ intends for all his disciples.”
The Scriptural support presented for cooperation and unity between Evangelicals and Catholics is Jesus’ prayer for his disciples in John 17:21: “That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they may also be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.” ECT conveniently removes this verse from its context and misinterprets it by failing to mention verses that identify Jesus’ disciples as those who “received His words.”
"For I have given unto them the words which thou hast given me; and they have received them. I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine… Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word. That they all may be one…that the world may believe that thou hast sent me." (John 17:8,9,20,21)
Reception of the Word of God is an essential condition of Christian discipleship and reveals the true nature of a church or individual. Those who would collaborate with the Roman Catholic Church should first examine its doctrines and practices and compare them with the doctrines presented in Scripture. Although The ECT Document declares, “And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved,’ it also rejects Jesus Christ as Savior exclusively by recognizing the multitude of mediators and means of grace that are encouraged in Catholic doctrine:
The Roman Catholic Church elevates the Pope above Jesus Christ, who is the Word of God, by conferring on the so-called Vicar of Christ the arbitrary right to nullify Scripture through papal decrees. After receiving infant baptism, the Catholic faithful are carefully indoctrinated in unscriptural works such as:
Devotion to Mary as Co-Redemptrix with Jesus – a bloodless propitiation
Worship and partaking of the literal body and blood of Christ (not a remembrance but the real presence; See: Eucharistic Miracles)
Mandatory attendance at weekly Mass – a continual sacrifice of Jesus Christ, not a finished work
Confession of sins to a priest who is a mediator with God
Prayers to dead saints – not to God, in Jesus' name
Veneration of statues and images – idolatry
Offering of masses, prayers and rosaries for those who suffer in purgatory – a denial of final judgment after death
Obedience to unscriptural messages given by Marian apparitions – consulting with familiar spirits
ECT acknowledges the incompatibility between Catholic and Evangelical creeds on the “new birth” and broadmindedly proposes that those who evangelize present both the Catholic doctrine of “new birth through baptism” and the Evangelical doctrine of “new birth followed by baptism.” According to the framers of this accord: “Those converted…must be given full freedom and respect as they decide the community in which they will live their new life in Christ…and we dare not interfere with the exercise of that responsibility.”
This is nothing less than sabotage of the Great Commission, which requires Christ's ambassadors to be "...teach all nations...to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you.” (Matt. 28:20) This subtle neutralization of the demands of the Gospel is unilaterally disarming the Evangelical Church, and is a calculated attempt to exploit Evangelicals to conduct Catholic evangelism!
“If this rule of presenting both views applies to baptism, why should it not apply to all doctrines? This is the only logical conclusion to such a proposal… What this amounts to is the Roman Catholic Church using evangelical Christians to indirectly proselytize for Roman Catholicism…Are we to be agents of the Catholic Church at the expense of truth?…” 37.
Signatories of the Evangelicals and Catholics Together Document wash their hands of this violence to the doctrine of Christ and, like Pontius Pilate, would sacrifice the Word of God on the altar of political expedience. In January 1995, a formal debate was held in which D. James Kennedy, John MacArthur, R.C. Sproul and other Evangelical leaders challenged the Evangelical position on ECT as unbiblical. According to Biblical Discernment Ministries:
"The ECT Accord generated so much heat in Protestant ranks, that Colson found it necessary to call a meeting in January, 1995 to try 'to achieve a measure of understanding, clarification, and harmony around the truth recognized by historic orthodoxy' (1/25/95, Prison Fellowship News Release -- 'Evangelical Leaders Resolve Differences On Evangelical-Catholic Paper'). Attending the 1/19/95 peace meeting (held at Catholic-sympathizer D. James Kennedy's Coral Ridge Presbyterian Church in Ft. Lauderdale, Florida) were ECT signers Colson, Packer, Bright, and Kent Hill, along with a group of so-called evangelicals critical of the ECT (i.e., the 'anti-ECT group') -- John Ankerberg, John MacArthur, R.C. Sproul, D. James Kennedy, Joseph Stowell, Michael Horton, and John Woodbridge.
"After the meeting, Colson, Bright, Packer, and Hill issued a joint doctrinal statement supposedly clarifying their position on the ECT. However, no changes to the ECT were recommended, nor would any of the original signators remove their names from it. In fact, in June of 1995, J.I. Packer co-authored a document with Michael Horton titled, 'Resolutions for Roman Catholic and Evangelical Dialogue.' The document encourages Catholics and Evangelicals to join together when 'Christian values and behavioral patterns are at stake,' but this union is not to be regarded as agreement in doctrine! It also accepts as fact that the Roman Catholic Church contains many believers.
"Then in late-1995, Evangelicals and Catholics Together: Toward a Common Mission, edited by Colson and Neuhaus, was published. The book is a collection of essays defending the ECT, including one by J.I. Packer. The overall thesis of the book is that evangelicals and Catholics need each other to reform decaying culture obsessed with destructive individualism and materialism, and that the Christian gospels compel a unity between sincere Christians regardless of different, even irreconcilable theologies. (Reported in the 12/23/95, Houston Chronicle.)" 38.
Commenting on the 1995 debate, Pat Robertson said that the dispute over “minor points of doctrinal differences” shouldn't obscure the document’s goals. 39. Robertson’s political action organization, Christian Coalition, defends his endorsement of ECT because its objective is to fulfill the Church’s “responsibility for the right ordering of civil society.” 40. Judas Iscariot also had a political agenda and, like the Pharisees, expected Jesus to establish a temporal kingdom. “Should Christians sacrifice the purity of the faith for the sake of political action?…Christians who think they can join with anti-christ philosophies to save the world from God's judgment are fighting against the very work of God.” 41.
Scripture is clear that moral and social reform of the world will only be realized when Jesus Christ returns to earth and establishes His Millennial Kingdom. Historian Edward Gibbon's Rise and Fall of the Roman Empire records: “The ancient and popular doctrine of the Millennium was intimately connected with the second coming of Christ... [However,] [a]fter Constantine, the Roman Catholic Church perverted the biblical teachings on the premillennial return of Jesus Christ to post-millennial eschatology, meaning that the pope would bring in the Kingdom through the efforts of the Catholic Church.” 42.
Columnist George Will once called the Roe vs. Wade Supreme Court decision “an intellectual trainwreck.” Comparable to this legal landmark in its diabolical character, The Evangelicals and Catholics Together Document is void of intellectual and Biblical integrity. Those who are carried about by its “every wind of doctrine” will eventually abandon the narrow course of faith and experience “spiritual shipwreck” (I Tim. 1:18,19) The spiritual compass of the Christian is unwavering on the subject of ecumenical unity:
“Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: For what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? And what communion hath light with darkness? And what concord hath Christ with Belial? Or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel? And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? For ye are the temple of the living God… Wherefore come out from among them and be ye separate…” II Cor.6:14-17
EVANGELICALS & THEOSOPHISTS TOGETHER?
If the Roman Catholic Church is controlled by International Freemasonry, it follows that Evangelicals who consort with the Catholic Church are ultimately collaborating with Universal Freemasonry. “A main purpose of Roman Catholic ecumenism is to lull non-Catholic Christians asleep in order to thwart evangelization of Roman Catholics,” wrote Al Dager of Media Spotlight. To this end, the ECT Document censures the Evangelical practice of “proselytizing or sheep stealing” from the Catholic Church: “We call upon Christians to refrain from such activity.”
Doing obeisance unworthy of ambassadors for Jesus Christ, some ministries which seem ashamed of the Gospel, are now humbly repenting for leading other “people of faith” to Christ. In 1993, responding to objections of Catholic and Jewish leaders in Colorado Springs because “Jewish and Catholic youth were being evangelized at school,” Christian leaders signed a “Covenant of Mutual Respect.” In this covenant, Focus on the Family, Young Life, International Students, Inc., and the Navigators agreed to cease such activities out of respect for other religious beliefs.
A former employee of Focus on the Family, Randy Shafer, presents a rare inside look at the agenda of this pseudo-Christian organization in his expose, Let's Focus in on Focus on the Family:
“Next, let us take a look at James Dobson the ecumenist. I was present at this board meeting and document this statement. The source was Steve Alesaquez (sic), manager of the shipping department for the distribution centre of Focus on the Family. The date was Thursday, November 2nd, 1995.
“Quote: ‘At a recent - that is, last week, Focus board of directors’ meeting, the 10 member board voted 5 to 5 on Dobson's meeting with the Pope. It was decided will not take place at this time since it was a divided vote.’
“James Dobson wishing to meet the Pope? I also have a copy here, a xerox copy of simply the outside of a letter which was sent to the president of the Pontifical Council for the Family, Vatican City State in August of 1995. There is correspondence and there has been other correspondence going on between Focus and the Vatican and various Catholic organizations around the country.
“Item No. 2 on James Dobson - Focus on the Family and ecumenism. On May 2nd, 1995, this little brochure called 'The Interfaith Alliance' was sent to all of the Family research institutes - Family Institutes, Family Councils of the various States around the United States. These are supposedly people who are working on behalf of the families, more or less - an activist group. There were a number of people mentioned on the board of directors of the Interfaith Alliance in this brochure who are National Council of Churches members, or they are Rabbis or they are involved in the Roman Catholic Church.
“One in particular, a Dr. Albert M. Penneybacker (sic), President of the Ecumenical and Development Initiative which served both the National and World Council of Churches - and he is a professor of Ecumenical Studies at Lexington Theological Seminary in Lexington, Kentucky. Focus inserted these in their mailings to those that I mentioned earlier.
“Locally, we have a Rabbi named Howard J. Hirsch (sic). Let me give you a quote.
‘The 20th Century has witnessed the tragic descent of Jewish - Christian relations to their lowest level in 2,000 years. I believe that the closing years of the 20th century and the initial years of the 21st century are a special time of grace, a time of grace when Jews and Christians can take a fresh look at our common heritage and our mutual need to work - to work together - that is, to enrich our lives with love, gentleness and understanding.’
“If I remember Romans 1:16 rightly - the gospel is to the Jew first and also to the Greek and we are to love the Jewish people, we certainly do not have that much in common. They have still rejected Jesus Christ, their Messiah. And guess who signed on as one of the board of directors of what they are calling 'The Centre for Christian/Jewish dialogue in Colorado Springs?' None other than Dr. James Clayton Dobson, President of Focus on the Family!
“The next one - although I do not have the exact date, I believe it might have been 1994 - a group of local religious leaders took out a 4 page advertisement in the Gazette Telegraph, the local newspaper. It says simply - 'A message to the people of Colorado Springs - it continues:
“‘We the undersigned have entered into a covenant with each other, and it is called ‘The Covenant of Mutual Respect’, Catholics, Protestants and Jewish Leaders signed this agreement.’
“I am not going to read it all, it is a little bit lengthy, a couple of lengthy paragraphs and we have an hour and a half tape. But the second signer was James Dobson, President of Focus on the Family - still another ecumenical move on Dobson's part.”
Christians should inquire as to the purpose of Focus on the Family if it is not to fulfill the Great Commission: “Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost?” Mt. 28:19 Would Christ's apostles have signed such a covenant or ECT? Randy Shafer’s expose gives further clues as to the true agenda of Focus on the Family, a key piece of information being Dobson’s interest in a Theosophical cult called the Liberal Catholic Church.
“I have in my tape files a copy of James Dobson addressing his key management persons...the board of directors meeting at which time it had been decided likely that he and Chuck Colson would as early as 1997, perhaps even hold meetings calling the nation back to righteousness. Actually, it is an ecumenist move.
“He detailed that Focus on the Family, while the staff did not necessarily understand the larger picture, needed to know, had a plan. Then he paused, and then he said - 'A global plan'. He went on to explain that this would begin with a meeting of America's larger church pastors and then at a later time, they would meet with smaller church pastors, this perhaps in groups. He didn't go into much detail of that.
“One of the groups that they had hoped to meet with was the Liberal Catholic Church. Now he did not state this, when he was talking to his key personnel, this came out a little later in the letters that were sent. These letters were letters of invitation to pastors in the United States. At least two letters were sent, they were sent, as I earlier mentioned to America's largest church pastors and specifically to representatives of the Liberal Catholic Church.
“These letters were sent out by H.B. London, vice president of New Ministry Outreach and Pastoral Ministries for Focus on the Family. London is the cousin of James Dobson. All who attended this one-day meeting, they would come in, they would be put up overnight at Focus' expense in a hotel or motel and their meals would be furnished. The meetings were to have taken place on Monday August 26th through Tuesday August 27th. It never happened, possibly because the 'word' got out.
“Focus on the Family went so far as to plead with the representatives of the Liberal Catholic Church to join them for what would be a 'memorable event', and if they couldn't, please send representatives in their place - two designated representatives - this is the exact quote.
“Now I want you to take a look at what the Liberal Catholic Church is, and then I have a question - why was James Dobson trying to involve with leading American pastors, people from the Liberal Catholic Church. Ecumenism, I would say to the 'nth' degree.
“Let us take a look at the Liberal Catholic Church and what they really are and what they stand for:
“Here are some of the publications I think, to begin with. The Goddess Religions, Gnostic Christianity, Eastern Mysticism, Mystical States of Consciousness, Reincarnation in Christianity?, The Feminine Aspect of Divinity. They also have a booklet of course, on meditation.
“They say its mystical approach to Christianity represents the position of the Liberal Catholic Church. They also emphasize the commonality of all religions.
“Those who wrote received this letter -
‘Thank you for your interest in the Liberal Catholic Institute for Studies. As an institute, we are dedicated to the teaching of esoteric, mystical traditions of Christianity.’
“I have a number of documents on this organization, among other things, of course, they teach reincarnation and recognize the validity and unity of all religions - there is your ecumenical approach again - they teach Christianity of the Cosmic Christ and they administer the 7 sacraments in an atmosphere of intellectual freedom - of course. As nearly as I can ascertain from literature, there are approximately 1500 members world-wide in about 130 congregations. Here are some more:
‘The winds of change are reaching an ever-increasing velocity and those unwilling to recognize these changes will surely be swept away. If we are going to have faith and be guided by the Holy Spirit in this New Age, we have to be prepared for radical changes alarming relegations.’
“I wonder if they mean ‘extra-Biblical’? And even demands to reinterpret our own faith, the prime task of those in Christian ministry today is to help people evolve. The cultural Christians have to evolve along with the universe or perish.
“If the Cosmic Christ is saying anything to us today, it is ‘evolve or perish’. They go on to say that every man is a potential ‘christ’.
“One more thing I want to mention. This is their statement ‘it is neither the Roman Catholic or Protestant, but Catholic’ And when they use the phrase ‘but Catholic’ - it is spelt with a capital 'C'. Basically, they are saying they are not Protestant, they are not Roman Catholic, but C-a-t-h-o-l-i-c. They are THE representatives of God on earth. This is clearly an occultic, new age group and James Dobson went out of his way, or at least his organisation did, and I am sure with his knowledge, because he was going to be one of the speakers, went out of his way to invite representatives from this group to meet with leading ministers of the United States at Focus on the Family campus.”
A brief history of the Liberal Catholic Church from The Occult Undergrounddocuments the source of this gnostic religion as the Theosophical Society, whose failed candidate for World Savior in the early 20th century was Jiddu Krishnamurti. The proposed messiah had been discovered and mentored by the notorious homosexual Theosophist, Charles Leadbeater, co-president with Annie Besant of the Theosophical Society following Madame Blavatsky. Leadbeater was also ordained a Bishop of the Liberal Catholic Church:
“Particularly in its later phases as a millenarian movement, [Theosophy] attracted the same sort of recruit which such movements have always attracted. Norman Cohn tells us that in the Middle Ages the prophet of the Millennium came mainly from 'the lower strata of the intelligentsia. They included many members of the lower clergy, priests who had lost their parishes, monks who had fled from their monasteries, clerks in minor orders...' Of those immediately surrounding Krishnamurti, Leadbeater, and his fellow-Bishop and superior in the Liberal Catholic Church, James Wedgwood, were frustrated clergymen...
“From the Masters to the Messiah was a considerable journey. Madame Blavatsky's Theosophy was after all to prove the more lasting. Her intimations of occult secrets might have had even more effect if she had not become concerned with Masters and 'phenomena.' Mrs. Besant, on the other hand, abandoned the most original part of the Theosophic credo in favor of the Millennium proclaimed by her World-Teacher. In this she merely followed an example which by the turn of the 19th and 20th centuries was well-established...
“[I]n the Roman Church it is held that a bishop cannot be deprived of his episcopal powers even if he is excommunicated for some major offense. It follows that he can still consecrate other bishops whose orders will be technically valid; hence that he can indeed start up his private branches of the Church at will. The result has been the emergence of a sort of 'Catholic Protestantism' in which schismatics can make nonsense of canon law.
“In this way, when in 1813 the majority of the Dutch clergy refused to acknowledge a papal bull condemning Jansenism and consequently left the Catholic Church, their orders remained valid. They formed the 'Old Catholic Church' and it was Gerart Gul, the Old Catholic Archbishop of Utrect, who in 1908 consecrated Arnold Mathew. Mathew was an entertaining character who had once been a Dominican; but he renounced Rome in favor of the more attractive standing of 'Count Provoleri di Vicenza, De Jur Earl of Llandaff,' which title he coupled to the Old Catholic Bishopric of England. Among his exploits was an attempt to set up a zoo at Brighton. It was through Mathew that Leadbeater of the Theosophical Society obtained his Bishopric. For Mathew's tiny church soon seceded from the Dutch Old Catholics, and by the beginning of the First World War had become seriously infected with Theosophy.” 43.
There is other evidence of Focus on the Family's ties with Theosophy which are not within the scope of this report but are treated elsewhere on this website. Please see: Focus on the Family & the Theosophical Society for details of interaction between FOTF and this overtly occult organization which has blazed the path for the New Age Movement in the U.S. The reader is also encouraged to read Dr. Cathy Burns' book, Little Known Facts About Focus on the Family, a portion of which is available on our website that deals with FOTF and Quest International, a New Age curriculum for schools.
The Great Falling Away
Bible prophecy foretells that, in the last days, there will be a great falling away or apostasy from the orthodox faith of Jesus Christ: "Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition." (II Thess. 2:3)
Revelation 17 describes a gnostic religious system called Mystery Babylon that is led by Rome, the “city on seven hills”:
“So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns. And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication: “And upon her forehead was written, MYSTERY BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH... The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.”
The prophet Daniel was told in a vision that the great harlot church will ally with a system of government figuratively called "the beast", a world empire which will devour the earth in its demonic quest to establish a literal kingdom of God upon the earth.
“Then I would know the truth of the fourth beast, which was diverse from all the others, exceeding dreadful, whose teeth were of iron, and his nails of brass; which devoured, brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with his feet... Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon the earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.” (Dan. 7:19, 23)
Evangelical leaders who promote unity with Roman Catholicism, and by extension its Masonic overlords, are either ignorantly or intentionally leading Christians into the apostate religious system of The Masonic New World Order. Tragically, many believers have chosen to reject the prophetic warnings of Scripture, preferring rather to believe the false prophets who call unity with the world's religions a Christian revival. Such is the deluded mindset of the present “word of faith” generation aptly described in the Kingdom Gospel Messenger:
“Gone now are all the shackles of that old traditional Pre-Millennial view with its ‘negative’ references to a bloodbath of martyrdom, the greatest upheavals history has ever seen (Mt. 24:21), the wrath of God poured out on the followers of the Antichrist, and the necessity for Christ to return and save the day lest 'there should no flesh be saved' (Mt. 24:22), Christian or otherwise.
Such is considered too unbelieving to a generation raised on the mantras of ‘positive confession’ that, literally nothing is impossible to them that believe; a generation that thinks -- if you thought you'd ever live to see the day -- that rejection of the prophecies and warnings of the Scriptures is somehow 'faith'; and a generation that, nonetheless, predicts that they will be more consecrated and holy than any other in history.’”
44.
Many believers will be led to worship the Antichrist because their spiritual leaders, whom Jesus warned would be like wolves in sheep's clothing, encouraged unity with pagan religions.
That the elect may be deceived is a hard saying (Mt. 24:24) -- until it is understood that the deception will come from the highest ranks of Evangelicalism.
CONTEND FOR THE FAITH
While a great multitude of Christians are intensely focused on the spiritual war that is raging in our government and society, most are failing to discern that a more insidious and costly battle for souls is being waged against the Church from within. In their driving zeal for social transformation, these ecumenical reformers seem unaware that a great departure from the Word of God has occurred within Evangelicalism. Christian doctrines that have been preserved throughout Church history at great cost are now being carelessly surrendered in search of a modern and more utilitarian redefinition of Christianity. Yet, it is the divinely instituted Church of Jesus Christ, rather than the political or apostate world systems, which is “the pillar and ground of the truth.” (I Tim. 3:15)
The Lord of the New Covenant has proclaimed that it is the supreme duty of the Church to preserve the fundamentals of the faith for, “If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do?” Social action may be the calling of individual Christians, but only in its proper context of the objective truth established in Scripture:
“It is important that in all we do – whether in the secular realm or the religious – we maintain purity in doctrine. Purity of doctrine does not mean dogmatism apart from good works, but insistence upon a biblical framework for those good works. Faith without works is dead, says James; and works without faith are wood, hay and stubble – likewise dead. The disciple of Jesus Christ is called to both true, biblical Faith (which demands a defense [Jude 3]) and sacrificial acts of love toward all, whether brethren in Christ or enemies.” 45.
Pro-life activists spare few efforts on behalf of unborn children. For these who would be doers of the Word, the unending toil of letters, marches, meetings, political campaigns, protests, counseling and ministry through homes for unwed mothers are a small sacrifice of time and often reputation to secure the right to life.
Proverbs 24:11 does require Christians to "deliver them that are drawn unto death."
However, when the Church gets involved with the political system, the system always controls the Church rather than the reverse.
This should be obvious to those who have labored for years on the pro-life treadmill with no tangible results in the way of legislation to stem the abortion holocaust.
The reason for this refusal to face facts is that pro-life Christians have been largely processed to believe that progress is being made and victory is just around the corner.
Few would even suspect that the Pro-Life Movement is really a controlled opposition movement, financed by Rockefeller money.
What better way for the abortion industry to control opposition to its agenda than to organize a movement that is structured and programmed to fail? This should have been apparent with a pro-abortion policy announced by President George Bush in August of 2001 to federally fund human embryo stem cell research.
A disinformation campaign was immediately launched by Chuck Colson, D. James Kennedy, James Dobson and other neo-evangelical change agents who proclaimed the president's policy a “pro-life victory” and George Bush a “courageous Christian.” Nevermind that President Bush had just succeeded in reviving President Clinton's 1993 program to federally fund fetal research, a program which was banned one year later by the NIH. Never mind that President Bush equivocated in his address to the nation on the fundamental issue of when human life begins and presented a policy that furthers the pro-abortion aims of the biomedical establishment.
Of course, controlling the pro-life opposition requires that the New World Order create fronts such as those directed by Colson, Kennedy and Dobson which give the impression that progress is being made when, in fact, abortion, fetal research and experimentation, genetics research and other forms of eugenics / population control continue with no effective opposition. Our report, Brave New Babies, presents critical information on this subject to help Christians wake up to the reality that they are being exploited to achieve a secular agenda that is diametrically opposed to what they believe.
Although Christians are called to be light and salt in their culture, the highest calling of the Church is to preserve the pure gospel of salvation unto eternal life through faith in Jesus Christ. In his classic work, Christ in Isaiah, F.B. Meyer describes another "pro-life march"…
“Through this world, unseen by mortal eye, a procession is passing, threading its way across continents of time. It bears holy vessels. The forms of expression in which Divine truth is enshrined may be compared to the vessels of the old dispensation, God's truth, the affirmation of things unseen and eternal, the announcement of the facts of redemption -- such are our sacred charge. We must contend earnestly for the faith once delivered to the saints. Take heed to thyself and to the doctrine. The greatest service the Church can give to the world is its perpetual witness to the truth of God's being, the facts of redemption, of judgment, and of the world to come. Concerning all these, the olden charge is given us, 'Watch ye and keep them, until ye weigh them before the chiefs of the priests and of the Levites, in the chambers of the house of the Lord.'” 46.
WATCH UNTO PRAYER
Concerning Jerusalem, Ezekiel 22:25 tells of a "conspiracy of her prophets in the midst thereof; like a roaring lion ravening the prey, they have devoured souls." Those who have realized with growing alarm that a similar conspiracy is overtaking the Church must protest as Paul did, "Who is sufficient for these things?" However, like Paul we can acknowledge, "Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God." (II Corinthians 2:17;3:5) Although each of us may sense a certain inadequacy for interceding effectively for the Church in these perilous times, let us pray that God will supply all of our sufficiency for this ministry of prayer.
For spiritual discernment within the Church and a disposition to try the spirits and to prove all things.
That Christians will look only to the Word of God as the foundation for sound doctrine and prophecy.
That pastors, teachers and other shepherds will not be deceived, but will warn and protect the flock.
That false prophets and teachers will be exposed and their teachings rejected by the Church.
That God will raise up men and women who will earnestly contend for the faith.
That God will enlist men and women of prayer to intercede for the Church in these perilous times.
ENDNOTES:
1. L’Eglise Eclipsée (The Church in Eclipse) by Les Amis de Christ-Roi (by The Friends of Christ the King), Editions Delacroix, 1997 Paris, from Chapter 1, titled: Toward the Marriage of the Cross and the Triangle, quoting Alice Bailey, Esteriorizzazione della gerarchia, Ediziones Nuova Era, Rome, 1985, p. 476.) [Externalization of the Hierarchy],, 1985, pp. 476, 478 and Il destino delle Nazioni, Ediziones Nuova Era, Rome, 1988, p. 155 (quoted by Professor Carlo Alberto Agnoli, op. cit.).
2. W.B. Howard, Christian Conscience, October 1997, p. 10.
3. "United Religions (UR) Modeled After the U.N.," Ecumenical News Services, June, 1996.
4. "Invitation to Share the Vision," Rev. William. E. Swing, United Religions, 1055 Taylor St., San Francisco, CA 94108.
5. Iowa Research Group, P.O. Box 17346, Des Moines, Iowa 50317-0346, contact Christopher Story at 212/679-0095.
6. "The State of the World According to Gorbachev," Berit Kjos.
7. "World Scripture," Ecumenical News Service.
8. "ENI News Highlights," Ecumenical News International, June 20, 1996; April 22, 1996.
9. The Prophetic Observer, July, 1995, p. 1.
10. Alan Morrison, The Serpent & the Cross, K. & M. Books, 1994, 1999, Chapter 12.
11. Ibid.
12. Jay Gary, The Star of 2000, Our Journey Toward Hope, (Colorado Springs: Bimillennial Press, 1994).
13. Jay Gary, Get Ready to Celebrate the Year 2000, (Colorado Springs: AD 2000 Global Service Office, 1993), p. 2.
14. New Man Magazine, (600 Rinehart Rd., Lake Mary, FL 32746), July-August 1995, p. 85-86.
15. "The State of the World: According to Gorbachev," op cit.
16. Discernment Newsletter, March/April 1996, p.5.
17. Spiritual Counterfeits Journal, Volume 19:2/3, 1994, p. 47.
18. Ibid., p. 15.
19. James Webb, The Occult Underground, Open Court Publishing Company, 1974, p. 222.
20. Ibid., p. 221.
21. Ibid., p. 196.
22. "The Catholic Church and Globalism," Carey J. Winters, Real Catholicism, March, 1998.
23. Michael Baigent, Richard Leigh, Henry Lincoln, Holy Blood, Holy Grail, Dell, Pub., 1982, pp. 411-13.
24. Douglas Stanglin With Jason Vest, Josh Chetwynd, et. al., e-mail address: whispers@usnews.com
25. "Palestinians Contemplate A Risky Gambit: Declaring Independence," U.S. News & World Report, October 21, 1996, pp. 54-55.
26. Religion Today, January 21, 2000.
27. Lynn Picknett and Clive Prince, The Templar Revelation, Touchstone Book, 1998, p. 79.
28. The Prophetic Observer, August 1995, p. 1.
29. G.A. Riplinger, New Age Bible Versions, A.V. Publications, 1993, pp. 106, 107.
30. "Another Mary," Spiritual Counterfeits Journal, Vol. 19:3, pp. 4, 5.
31. "Three Days of Darkness: The Great Chastisement," Wayne Weible, http://www.medjugorje.org/3days.htm
32. Discernment Newsletter, March/April, 1996, p.3.
33. The Prophetic Observer, July 1994, p. 1.
34. "Signs, Wonder, and the Word," Francis Frangipane, River of Life Ministries, August, 1995.
35 "Evangelicals and Catholics Together Document: The Christian Mission in the Third Millennium", First Things, (Institute on Religion and Public Life, 156 Fifth Ave., Suite 400, New York, NY 10010), May 1994, p. 12-22. http://incolor.inetnebr.com/mdavis/evandcat.shtml
36. "Protestants Swear Allegiance to the Pope of Rome," (Living Truth Ministries, 1708 Patterson Rd., Austin, TX 78733).
37. "Evangelicals and Catholics Together," Albert James Dager, (Media Spotlight Ministries, P.O. 290, Redmond, WA 98073-290), p. 12, 11.
38. J.I. Packer: Teachings/General Activities, Biblical Discernment Ministries: http://www.rapidnet.com/~jbeard/bdm/exposes/packer/general.htm
39. "Catholics and Protestants: Can We Walk Together?," Joe Maxwell, Charisma Magazine, July, 1995, p. 22.
40. Letter from William H. Miles, Manager, Membership Services, Christian Coalition, March 6, 1996.
41. "Evangelicals and Catholics Together," A. J. Dager, p. 12.
42. The Prophetic Observer, February, 1996, p. 3.
43. The Occult Underground, pp. 100, 106, 130.
44. "Last Days Leaven," The Kingdom Gospel Messenger, Don Classen.
45. "Celebration 2000," Media Spotlight, A. J. Dager, p. 14.
46. Christ in Isaiah, F.B. Meyer, Christian Literature Crusade, Fort Washington, PA 19034, p. 124. (Ezra 8:29)
Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002
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becauseHElives
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Amen Trafield,
I agree with you,
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
Posts: 4578 | From: Southeast Texas | Registered: Jun 2002
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Trafield
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quote:
I would not believe everything you read or hear, this applies to anything. You especially have to consider the credibility and the modivation of the source.
I would not dismiss everything you read or hear either. ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
Cutting Edge is certainly on the cutting edge, but there is much more truth there than many choose to believe.
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RioLion
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I really do not understand any of this stuff about the Illuminati Secret Society and wonder if such even exists except in the minds of conspiracy type people. ![[pound]](graemlins/pound.gif)
As for the comments on Masonic Order. If this is the Masonic Lodge (freemasonry) that they are referring to then I can truly state, having been a member of that order that they generally are very unfavorable toward the Roman Catholic Church. I still have a library collected while a member of Freemasonry and it is not pro-Catholic!
The Masons were instrumental in the overthrow of the Papal States back in the 1870's; many of King Emmanuel's people (the founder of modern Italy) belonged to the Masonic Lodge. In Roman Catholicism, it is a 'moral sin' to belong to the Masonic lodge - a tiky to hell.
It is true that they, the Masons, are a 'secret' society with practically all of our countries founding fathers being members, but like Ben Franklin stated, 'the only secrets that the Masons have is that they really do not have any secrets'.
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INRI
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I would not believe everything you read or hear, this applies to anything. You especially have to consider the credibility and the modivation of the source.
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BORN AGAIN
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They better hurry up because that Illuminati is about to go Obscuriti in the soili of the groundi of Polski.
____________ ![[Cross]](graemlins/cross.gif) _______
God bless, BORN AGAIN
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helpforhomeschoolers
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THE POPE, AN ILLUMINIST
David Bay, director of Old Paths Ministries speaks on a radio program named the Cutting Edge was the subject of a letter written to us recently.
It stated:
"On November 27, 1983, Pope John Paul II, the current Pope, issued the Papal Bull which legalized secret society membership for Catholics.
(Your file - A List of Masons in the Hierarchy of the Catholic Church - reads "The following is a list of Masons reprinted with some updates from the Bulletin de l 'Occident Chre'tien NR. 12, July 1976, (Directeur Pierre Fautrad a Fye - 72490 Bourg Le Roi.) All of the men on this list, if they in fact be Masons, are excommunicated by Canon Law 2338.")
Now we can understand how it is that Pope John Paul II can so brazenly display the occult bent or broken cross. Now we can understand how Pope John Paul can eagerly pursue domination of the New World Order, as asserted by Malachi Martin in his book, The Keys Of His Blood. Martin is a retired Jesuit priest, who taught at the Vatican's Pontifical Institute.
[Editor's note: Jesuits are listed as a Masonic Order. On page 472 we read: It is strange phenomenon in the history of the Roman church, every time there is a crisis of extraordinary value, new Masonic Orders are called forth and that is how the Jesuit came into being. (Geheime Gesellschaften Verbindungen und Orden, Dr. G. Schuster p. 472)]
Finally, after over 200 years, the Masters of the Illuminati Secret Society - originators of the Plan for The New World Order, have achieved one of their major objectives, the infiltrating of their own Illuminists as Supreme Pontiff of the Roman Catholic Church.
This breakthrough occurred, as we have already stated, in the early 1960's when Pope Paul VI came into power. This time period also fits in with the general period of spiritual degradation and apostasy that we have noted in earlier programs and in our seminar.
Interestingly, "New Age" Christian author Bill Cooper, in his book, Behold A Pale Horse, states, "In 1952, an alliance was formed bringing.. together for the first time in history: The Black Families (European Nobility which have historically practiced occultic spiritualism), The Illuminati, The Vatican, and the Freemason, now working together to bring about the New World Order." (p.80)
Today, it is very evident that Pope John Paul II is an Illuminist. We can see this concretely by his utilization of the bent cross.
We can see this in his pronouncements of New Age agenda and his global travels. But, the final confirmation occurred for this ministry in August 1990, when I attended a 4-hour seminar in Boston, given by the New England Director of the House of Theosophy.
The director asserted that, at the right moment in world history, the Pope would travel to Jerusalem to chair an Ecumenical Spiritual conference. The Pope will announce at this meeting that all world's religions are now one. Thus, he said, the New World Order Religion will be established. The tremendously exciting news was that this man, who is an Illuminati insider, knows that the Plan calls for the Roman Catholic Pope to be the leader of the New World Order Religion.
This understanding means two important things:
1. The Plan to replace the Catholic Pope with an Illuminist has succeeded, after 200 years.
2. The Roman Catholic Pope is probably the False Prophet of Revelation.
Finally, add to these understandings the fact that key leaders of the New World Order Plan have publicly identified the Roman Catholic Pope as the planned leader of the New World Order Religion.
This is the Biblical office of the False Prophet, the one who will serve with Anti-Christ to deceive the world, and who will wield the same occultic power as the Anti-Christ.
The time for final implementation is very close." Thank you for providing really important information for today's bible-faithful Christians. Our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ bless you all in Cephas Ministries. Your Ville Partanen.
This letter came long before the Pope went to Israel. The Pope has exposed himself to the rest of the Illuminists. Illuminists mean the enlightened ones "with Satan's light".
Following is the most shocking report we have yet to receive.
Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002
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