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Topic: End-Time Interpreters Iraq War
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Ntercesser
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Member # 332
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Mark 13:22
the elect are not the government or the Head of the church, but are ALL those who know Christ.
new look:
... to lead astray, if possible, even those who know Christ.
no one should think that htey can not be decieved. Or by staying righteous with God will you not be decieved.
![[Smile]](smile.gif) just some End-TImes Fir and Brimstone. it keeps my blood running hot.
![[Kiss]](graemlins/Kiss.gif)
Posts: 66 | From: in Texas,wanting the UK, praying for Home | Registered: Aug 2002
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Kindgo
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An interview with Todd Strandberg
Rapture Index
The founder of an online end times "speedometer" says that other current events are more connected to biblical prophecy.
An interThe tendency of the media to connect any major Middle East event to biblical prophecy has itself become predictable. Since the first bombs began falling in Baghdad, journalists working the end-of-the-world beat have been calling evangelicals for comment.
"War in Babylon has evangelicals seeing Earth's final days," says the San Francisco Chronicle. "Direst of predictions for war in Iraq," a Washington Post headline reads. Even Connecticut's Norwich Bulletin says, "Are these the last days? Some Christians say so."
Do many evangelicals really see end times indicators in this second U.S. invasion of Iraq?
To find out, Christianity Today assistant online editor Todd Hertz interviewed two representatives of disspensationalism, a movement known for speculating about end-times prophecy: Dr. Mark Bailey, president of Dallas Theological Seminary, and Todd Strandberg, the founder of the online Rapture Index.
In 1995 Strandberg founded the online Rapture Index, a Dow Jones-type measuring tool of biblical prophecy. He and 12 employees now run fourteen end-times sites, including RaptureReady.com and RaptureMe.com. The combined sites attract more than 250,000 visitors each month. He also cowrote a book due this summer titled Are You Rapture Ready? (E.P. Dutton).
The Rapture Index monitors 45 categories of various indicators prophesized in the Bible. The categories are ranked one to five based on whether they are rising or falling and include: earthquakes, mark of the beast technology, and date setting. A higher cumulative number indicates the world is moving faster toward the end times, Strandberg says.
As of this week, the index is at 174. According to the site, anything over 145 means "Fasten your seat belts." Yet the current index is still lower than the all-time high of 182 following September 11, 2001.
Are there many evangelicals connecting biblical prophecy with this war with Iraq?
I am not seeing that much. There was a big surge in my site traffic when Bush made the 48-hour ultimatum. From there, everything leveled off. We were doing about 7,000 visitors a day, and it bumped up to 10,000 when Bush gave the 48-hour notification. As the fighting began, the hits have been rather tame.
I think people are anticipating a rerun of 1991. When we went in that time, we were anticipating a major loss of life and we lost very few. Some envisioned it as a major event in prophecy. So now, most of us think that this won't be a major event either.
The Bible predicts that things get so bad in the end times that if Christ doesn't come back, there will be no flesh saved. It will obviously get much worse than this before the end. We [prophecy] watchers tend to be pessimistic about the future. If the Bible says things are going to get bad, we feel we are just being realistic.
Why is the index already higher now (174) than it was in Desert Storm (163)?
There are only a few things that relate to the war itself. It can only affect economic factors and global turmoil. The peace process in Israel, drought, famine, and earthquakes are not affected by this war.
The current war has thus far had limited economic impact. The stock market rallied last week during the first attack, whereas in 1991 it went down big time until the ground war broke out. Economically this doesn't seem to be anything out of the ordinary.
Then why is the Rapture Index so high right now?
Several categories have reached the point where they cannot go higher. The categories such as ecumenicalism and globalism are at their full state of development. In addition, the "Beast government" category, which pertains to Europe's revival of the Roman Empire, is as high as it can go.
When the EU started, it was a fanciful idea of a trading block. Then it progressed to an actual community, and now it is almost like the United States of Europe. Where can it go from here other than having a president? At that point, that's where the Antichrist comes in. He could be the first president. The Bible says he is elected by ten kings of that revived Roman Empire.
If you look at some of our previous indicators, we were down as low as 57 in 1993. Since then, we have not been lower than 158 in 2000. I believe it will stay at this level. I don't think Europe will disband. I don't think the now commonplace ability to create mark of the beast technology will uninvent itself. We won't get low again. There's too many indicators that are irreversible.
But what does it mean that it is so high? Are we closer to the end times?
The Rapture itself is an unknown event, so it doesn't matter how high the index gets. The Rapture could happen when it is at 120. Instead, the index is more of a speedometer than it is an indicator. This is just how fast we are getting there. I view it as a ship getting close to an iceberg in a fog. It doesn't matter how fast you are going when you hit it, but this is a way to be aware that it is approaching.
Where does the index tell us we are right now?
We are entering in the time of "think not." If you compare the reactions after 9/11 to the ones after Pearl Harbor, there's a big difference. The reaction in 1941 was very profound on society. 9/11, on the other hand, has lost a lot of its impact.
Recently North Korea talked about nuking America, and they're getting the capability to actually attack us, but yet we have no reaction whatsoever. Maybe we've become desensitized to these events. The Bible says more time than any, the end times, will be denoted by a time that you think not. That is probably one of the most significant indicators of the end times, and we may be seeing the start of it. [According to the index], we are certainly in a state of flux, where we've broken out of a period of stability and are heading on a progression.
How did the Rapture Index begin?
It started with my observations of the Dow Jones Industrial Average. It has been a perfect indicator of how our economy is going since its inception in the 1800s. I thought we could apply this to the end times.
Really, it is a way to standardize observation of the end times rather than just guessing. Sometimes I think, "Man, a lot of those things predicted in the Bible are really happening." But once I factor together all the various components, I see that the total occurrences are actually dropping.
It is natural to see one event, like the beginning of a war, and focus on it. But it may not be the trend if the other 44 categories are dropping. The index was a way to add a scientific approach to this. I wanted a standardized way of looking at all these different indicators. I defined 45 categories and rank them one to five based simply on whether they are increasing or decreasing.
The movement is based on whether they are rising or declining. Rather than assessing importance, we look at occurrences. Obviously, some indicators are more important than others. "Mark of the beast" would be more important than "wild weather." But I found when we made some of them worth more points, there was no real difference. The index worked well without giving them an added value.
Why did you want to do the index?
This index is just a small part of the RaptureReady site. I created it for people not familiar with prophecy. The other pages in our sites give more detail. The index gives an overview of the end times because prophecy can be very difficult to understand.
Our main goal is to be ready for the Rapture itself. We are seeing traffic of more than 250,000 people a month now. I believe that when the Rapture takes place, there is going to be a horrendous surge of people looking for what happened. The hits are going to be in the millions. Everything I have done for the past 14 years has been for nothing compared to what will happen after the Rapture.
Copyright © 2003 Christianity Today. Click for reprint information.
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Related Elsewhere:
Earlier Christianity Today articles about prophecy include:
Newspapers Miss the Real End-Times Story | Plus: Not all pastors preached about Iraq on Sunday, and other stories from online sources from around the world. (March 25, 2003)
Was September 11 the Beginning of the End? | Observers say geography and gravity of attacks have led to little prophecy speculation. (September 19, 2001)
The Rapture: What Would Jesus Do? | An end-times pilgrim counts the cost of discipleship. (Feb. 6, 2001)
Scholars Dispute Fatima Prophecy | Many question whether attempted assassination of Pope fulfilled prophecy. (Aug. 11, 2000)
What Hal Lindsey Taught Me About the Second Coming | At UCLA, amid war protests and police helicopters, teachings on an imminent end made a lot of sense. (Oct. 25, 1999)
Apocalypse Now | Worried about the future? Revelation says more about church life today than about how the world will end. (Oct. 25, 1999)
Stop the Dating Game | Don't do what Jesus said can't be done. (Oct. 25, 1999)
Reflections: End Times Edition (Oct. 25, 1999)
Is Revelation Prophecy or History? | Some events described in Revelation occurred contemporaneously with the prophecies themselves. (Oct. 25, 1999)
Inside CT: Obsessed with the End Times (Oct. 5, 1998)
How Evangelicals Became Israel's Best Friend | The amazing story of Christian efforts to create and sustain the modern nation of Israel. (Oct. 5, 1998)
The Bible Study at the End of the World | Recent novels by evangelical leaders say more about popular American Christianity than about the end times. (Sept. 1, 1997)
Issue 61 of Christianity Today sister publication Christian History examined how Christians have perceived prophecies about end of the world.
http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2003/112/43.0.html
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God bless,
Kindgo
Inside the will of God there is no failure. Outside the will of God there is no success.
Posts: 4320 | From: Sunny Florida | Registered: Jun 2002
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Caretaker
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Twenty-six years ago I was awaiting the Rapture, I await the Rapture this very moment, and ten years from now, (if my Lord ordains and delays), I will still look for His return for His Bride. Our God reigns and let His will be done. Our true and lasting faith is in the Author and Finisher of our salvation, not in the chronology of events.
I absolutely support a pre-trib Rapture, but my Brothers and Sisters have had to endure horrid persecution for their faith, down through the ages, and I will endure the same if it be my Master's will.
Be Ready When the Bridegroom Comes
James M. Black, 1897
Are you walking now in the light of God?
Be ready when the Bridegroom comes.
Are you in the path that the Master trod?
Be ready when the Bridegroom comes.
Refrain
Will you be ready to enter in?
Ready when the Bridegroom comes?
In the morning light, or at noon, or night,
Be ready when the Bridegroom comes.
Have you full salvation from every sin?
Be ready when the Bridegroom comes.
Trusting in His Word, have you peace within?
Be ready when the Bridegroom comes.
Refrain
Is your heart made clean by the precious blood?
Be ready when the Bridegroom comes.
Have you been made white in the cleansing flood?
Be ready when the Bridegroom comes.
Refrain
He will come some day unto every soul;
Be ready when the Bridegroom comes.
By His healing power let Him make you whole—
Be ready when the Bridegroom comes.
Refrain
May we be like the battery...Eveready.. ![[thumbsup]](graemlins/thumbsup2.gif)
If my Lord returns before I go home to Him, praise God!!
If I go home before He returns, praise God!!
In the words of our elder Brother Paul, for me to live is Christ, and to die is gain for I go to be with Him, and to be absent from the flesh is to be present with my Lord. He might come before I finish my post, He might delay another few years. Let us live each day for Him, and let Him sort-out the travel schedual.. ![[Big Clap]](graemlins/clap2.gif)
May God bless.
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A Servant of Christ,
Drew
1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..
Posts: 3978 | From: Council Grove, KS USA | Registered: Jun 2002
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Rog
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Because people look at that and get their expectations high thinking they will be raptured soon. It is dangerious to do that for the fact the major disappointment when Christians are persecuted and Jesus has'nt sent his angels to take us away yet. Many will fall away from the Lord, because their expectations have failed them. We have a little ways to go yet. If it takes 20 years for the rapture to take place, you have all of these Christians going through fire that will fall flat on their face. Believe me, that index will remain at the top within the next couple of years. People become completely absorbed with that type of thing and when it appears the Lord has tarried, and the earth is being shaken, and Christians are being persecuted, they will fall away, because their expectations failed them. They will feel that these people that preach this stuff failed them too. Christians are claiming Jesus will take them away at any second, and 15 years go by, people will scoff at them. Because the great tribulation will be a different time than the time of Jacobs trouble. Persecution is coming to this world my friend, and people are not listening. There are many prophets, like David Wilkerson, that are warning Christians of this, but instead people turn to someone like Hal Lindsy. All because there is some error in his prophecies and visions, because he is human and not infallable, does not mean the Lord did not show him these things.
2 Timothy 4:3-4
3.For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers;
4.and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables.
In Christ,
Rog
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Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
Posts: 26 | From: St. Charles MO. | Registered: Feb 2003
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Kindgo
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Rog, Why do you say that about the 'Rapture Index' Todd has been keeping that index for years,
its a great marker for end time events. He puts a lot of time and work into that index.
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The Purpose For This Index
The Rapture Index has two functions: one is to factor together a number of related end time components into a cohesive indicator, and the other is to standardize those components to eliminate the wide variance that currently exists with prophecy reporting.
The Rapture Index is by no means meant to predict the rapture, however, the index is designed to measure the type of activity that could act as a precursor to the rapture.
You could say the Rapture index is a Dow Jones Industrial Average of end time activity, but I think it would be better if you viewed it as prophetic speedometer. The higher the number, the faster we're moving towards the occurrence of pre-tribulation rapture.
Rapture Index of 85 and Below: Slow prophetic activity
Rapture Index of 85 to 110: Moderate prophetic activity
Rapture Index of 110 to 145: Heavy prophetic activity
Rapture Index above 145: Fasten your seat belt
web page
I hate it when the numbers on the index goes down, but like Todd told me, we are still speeding toward the rapture.
Who are you talking about being a scoffer?
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God bless,
Kindgo
Inside the will of God there is no failure. Outside the will of God there is no success.
Posts: 4320 | From: Sunny Florida | Registered: Jun 2002
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Rog
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Member # 1112
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2 Peter 3:3-4
3.knowing this first: that scoffers will come in the last days, walking according to their own lusts,
4.and saying, "Where is the promise of His coming? For since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of creation."
Be careful not to go by the Rapture index!
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Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
Posts: 26 | From: St. Charles MO. | Registered: Feb 2003
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Trafield
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quote:
Matthew 24:6-8
6."And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled; for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
7."For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places.
8."All these are the beginning of sorrows.
Matthew 24:34
"Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled."
This is the season, and we are the generation. Come, Lord Jesus! ![[Prayer]](graemlins/prayer.gif)
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Rog
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Matthew 24:6-8
6."And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled; for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
7."For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places.
8."All these are the beginning of sorrows.
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Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
Posts: 26 | From: St. Charles MO. | Registered: Feb 2003
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Kindgo
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Saddam Hussein, Iraq, & The Coming Wars Of Babylon
by Phillip Goodman
It grieves us here at Thy Kingdom Come when we think of war; men, many barely out of their teens, violently locked in deadly struggles on foreign fields. War is the bloody outworking of man’s fall into sin at the outset of creation and all the more reason to look with anticipation for the return of the Prince of Peace, Jesus Christ.
But the Bible predicts two coming wars in Babylon— modern Iraq— and according to Jeremiah, there may be a third. But first, the infamous City of Babylon must be rebuilt. Iraq’s Saddam Hussein began that rebuilding project some years ago. Recent satellite photos show that Babylon is rising again.
Before we consider the rebuilding of Babylon and the coming wars there, we must be careful to never “demonize” any race of people. In fact, there will be many Iraqis in that final number of saints who have accepted Jesus Christ and gained entrance into heaven.
After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude, which no one could count, from every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues…Revelation 7:9
An Iraqi “Disneyland?”
In our files we have a picture of 50 Jews standing on the Mediterranean Sea shore in 1909 dedicating the vacant area as the future site of Tel Aviv. Within 50 years, the place had been transformed into the metropolis it is today. Tel Aviv is a manifest reminder to skeptics, who refer to the rebuilding project taking place at Babylon as nothing more than a Disney-like amusement park, to do a sober retake. What was Tel Aviv— or even Israel— to the skeptics in 1909?
The fulfillment of every prophecy has a starting point. Even the incarnation of the Messiah began in a manger. The same Bible that foretold the seemingly impossible return of the Jews declares that Babylon will also rise again. And it is. Will There Be 3 Future Wars In Babylon? There are 2 coming wars of Babylon which are certain according to Revelation. One is the war of the Antichrist & 10 Kings when they destroy the worldwide false religious system situated in end-time Babylon. (Rev.17) The other is described in Revelation 18. At the return of Jesus Babylon meets a climactic fate similar to that of Sodom & Gomorrah. (Jer. 50:40)
However, Jeremiah 50-51, which clearly makes mention of both of the Revelation wars, seems to include another. Notice that Babylon’s judgment comes in phases. It spans the time from Nebuchadnezzar’s era (Jer. 50:17) all the way to the final restoration of Israel when they will accept “an everlasting covenant that will not be forgotten.” (50:5)
Thus, Jeremiah’s description of Babylon’s judgment spans the entire period from 539 BC until the second coming— a series of events leading to Babylon’s final fall. But some of the events do not seem to fit what we know about the fall of ancient Babylon or the future judgments of Revelation 17-18. Nations From The Ends Of The Earth Here are some of the Biblical prophecies that could be pointing to a war in Babylon that occurs before the Tribulation:
Many Nations —“A horde of great nations from the land of the north…Their arrows will be like an expert warrior…” Jeremiah 50:9
Nations from Remote Parts of the Earth —“A great nation & many kings, will be aroused from the remote parts of the earth.” Jeremiah 50:41
Nations Attack from All Sides —“Draw up your battle lines against Babylon on every side …Come from the farthest border.” Jeremiah 50:14,26
These battle descriptions, interspersed through a period in Jeremiah covering 2500 years, sound ominously familiar, & similar to the looming events of our own day: A coalition of nations from the far corners of the earth descending upon Iraq from every direction. Or their final fulfillment may yet be in the future— but not the too distant future.
Why? Because the convergence of all of the other signs of the soon coming of our Lord are weighing heavy upon this generation. Whatever the case, Babylon/Iraq has a judgment prepared for her & ready to be proclaimed from heaven at the time of her final destiny, "Hallelujah! HER SMOKE RISES UP FOREVER AND EVER." Revelation 19:2-3
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God bless,
Kindgo
Inside the will of God there is no failure. Outside the will of God there is no success.
Posts: 4320 | From: Sunny Florida | Registered: Jun 2002
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Kindgo
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End-Time Interpreters See Apocalyptic Meaning in Iraq War
Citing the Book of Revelation, many see invasion of Iraq as catalyst for Armageddon.
By Bill Broadway, The Washington Post
March 17, 2003--Ever since Jesus said that only God knows the hour or day of the Second Coming, preachers and self-appointed doomsayers have been trying to predict when it will happen. Even those who chastise date-setters nearly always say, "God's final judgement is coming soon, so get ready."
In recent weeks, the prophetic interpreters have been citing a new reason they believe the end is coming: the US-led war with Iraq.
Anxious discussions have arisen on prophecy websites, in Bible study groups and churches, and at such gatherings as last month's 20th International Prophecy Conference in Tampa, Florida. Many see evidence of Iraq's significance in doomsday scenarios in key passages of the apocalyptic book of Revelation. Chapter 16, which includes the only mention of Armageddon in the Bible, carries a direct reference to the Euphrates River, which runs through modern-day Iraq.
"The sixth angel poured out his bowl on the great river Euphrates, and its water was dried up to prepare the way for the kings from the East," writes John, possibly the apostle, of a container of God's anger emptied on the ancient land of Babylon, now Iraq. The kings will move their armies through the Euphrates valley en route to Har Megiddo (Armageddon) in northern Israel.
The Euphrates appears a second time with one of seven angels whose blaring trumpets warn that the Final Judgement is near. "Release the four angels who are bound at the great river Euphrates," a voice commands the sixth angel, who unleashes agents of death who "had been kept ready for this very hour and day and month and year and were released to kill a third of mankind."
Then comes the clincher. In chapter nine, verse 11 - yes, that's 9:11 - John says the leader of an army of locusts released to fight humankind is named Abaddon in Hebrew, Apollyon in Greek. Both words mean Destroyer, one of several meanings of "Saddam."
"Iraq fits like hand in glove," Irvin Baxter, founder of Endtime magazine and an Indiana pastor, says of the role he believes the country will play in world-ending events. Baxter, a lifelong student of Old and New Testament prophecies, says casualties will be tremendous, and other countries will take the opportunity to pursue their own interests--China trying to retake Taiwan, or India making an all-out assault on Kashmir--leading to World War III. He concludes the upshot could be a nuclear holocaust that takes the lives of two billion people, the "one-third of mankind" stated in Revelation.
Such talk bothers Craig Hill, professor of New Testament at Wesley Theological Seminary in Washington, and one of many biblical scholars who say end-time interpreters distort Scripture to fit their own point of view. Most claim to read the Bible "literally," yet take bits and pieces from books written centuries apart under different circumstances, he says.
Ezekiel, one of the most popular end-time texts, was written in the 6th century BC by a Judean priest exiled in Babylon, who dreamed of the return of the Jews to Israel and the restoration of the temple. Revelation was written 600 years later, about AD95, by an exiled Christian leader encouraging churches in Asia Minor to persevere under the hardships of Roman control.
Yet prophetic interpreters will take verses from each and combine them to create a reading that justifies their point of view, says Hill, author of In God's Time: The Bible and the Future.
"In trying to create one overarching interpretation, they are not allowing for the complexity of the biblical witness to come through," he says. "The irony is, in their quest for accuracy, biblical literalists are forced to misread the Bible."
More problematic is the fatalistic world view of apocalyptic thinking, Hill says. Many who obsess about the end of the world fail to enjoy the life they have or reach out to help others in an effort to improve society, he says. They become "morally complacent."
One of the greatest indicators of interest in how the world might end has been the phenomenal success of the Left Behind series by Tim LaHaye and Jerry B. Jenkins.
Since 1995, when their first book appeared, LaHaye and Jenkins have sold more than 38 million copies of 10 novels set during the end-time period known as the Great Tribulation.
The 11th novel, to be released on April 8, is titled Armageddon and set partly in Baghdad. "Readers tell me they're dying to know who survives Armageddon for the Glorious Appearing," Jenkins says. "And I can't wait to see what they think when they get to the end."
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God bless,
Kindgo
Inside the will of God there is no failure. Outside the will of God there is no success.
Posts: 4320 | From: Sunny Florida | Registered: Jun 2002
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