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Author
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Topic: Russian Warships headed to the Gulf!!
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chestnutmare
Advanced Member
Member # 392
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posted
Dear Kindgo:
I ask what bible you are using because many people use annotated bibles (the Schofield Reference Bible for instance) and get confused between what is actually scripture (the infallible word of God) and the various interpretations expressed in through the annotations. It is important to exercise caution when using these bibles. While the annotations can make for interesting reading, one must remember that they are someone's opinion rather than the express word of God.
I push this point because while there is a camp of evangelical scholarship that make the assumption that because ru'sh sounds like Russia then it is modern day Russia. There is also considerable scholarship which notes that this hebrew word for ru'sh is an adjective not at noun therefore not Russia.
I am not a hebrew scholar Kindgo. I don't know if you are either and that puts us in the position of depending on reliability of the scholarship of others. It is important to carefully consider this reliability factor. There are a lot of people who claim to be scholars when in fact they are only opinionated and and lack any credibility as scholars.
I am not defending any country or ethnicity. It appears that the most important outcome of this passage in Ezekial is that not matter who the participants are in the end "they will know that I am the Lord."
Your sister in the Lord
chestnutmare
"to glorify God, and to enjoy him forever" javascript:void(0)
Here are a couple of online bibles that were convenient so I provided their urls and copied and pasted one passage.
http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bible?passage=EZEK+38&language=english&version=NIV#footnote_698530267_1
http://www.bible.org/cgi-bin/netbible.pl#note_2
Ezekiel 38: 38:1 The word of the Lord came to me: 38:2 "Son of man, set your face against Gog,1 of the land of Magog,2 the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal.3 Prophesy against him 38:3 and say: 'This is what the Sovereign Lord says: I am against you, Gog, chief prince of Meshech and Tubal; 38:4 I will turn you around and put hooks into your jaws and will bring you out with all your army, horses and horsemen, all of them fully armed, a great company with buckler and shield, all of them armed with swords. 38:5 Persia, Ethiopia, and Put are with them, all of them with shield and helmet; 38:6 Gomer with all its troops; Beth-togarmah from the remote parts of the north with all its troops-many peoples are with you.
38:7 "'Be ready and stay ready, you and all your companies assembled around you, and you will be a guard for them. 38:8 After many days you will be summoned; in the latter years you will come to a land restored from the sword, with many peoples gathered on the mountains of Israel that had long lain waste. Its people4 were brought out from the peoples, and all of them are living securely. 38:9 You will advance;5 you will come like a storm-you will be like a cloud covering the earth, you and all your troops and many other peoples with you.
38:10 "'This is what the Sovereign Lord says: It will come about on that day that thoughts will come into your mind,6 and you will devise an evil plan. 38:11 You will say, "I will go up against a land of unwalled villages; I will come to those living quietly in safety, all of them living without walls, and without bars and gates, 38:12 to capture spoil and seize plunder, to turn my hand against the inhabited waste places and against the people gathered from the nations, who are acquiring cattle and goods, who live at the center7 of the earth." 38:13 Sheba and Dedan and the merchants of Tarshish with all its young warriors8 will say to you, "Have you come to capture spoil ? Have you assembled your company to seize plunder, to carry away silver and gold, to take away cattle and goods, to capture a great spoil?"'
38:14 "Therefore, prophesy, son of man, and say to Gog: 'This is what the Sovereign Lord says: On that day when my people Israel are living securely, will you not know 38:15 and come from your place, from the remote parts of the north, you and many peoples with you, all of them riding on horses, a great company and a mighty army? 38:16 You will come up against my people Israel, like a cloud covering the earth. It will come about in the latter days that I will bring you against my land so that the nations may know me, when I show myself holy before their eyes, O Gog.
38:17 "'This is what the Sovereign Lord says: Are you he of whom I spoke in former days by my servants the prophets of Israel, who prophesied in those days for years that I would bring you against them? 38:18 It will come about on that day, when God comes against the land of Israel, declares the Sovereign Lord, my fury will mount up in my anger. 38:19 In my jealousy, in the fire of my fury,9 I declare that on that day there will be a great earthquake10 in the land of Israel; 38:20 the fish of the sea, the birds of the sky, the wild beasts, all creeping things that creep on the ground, and all men who live on the face of the earth will tremble11 at my presence. The mountains will be thrown down, the cliffs12 will fall, and every wall will fall to the ground. 38:21 I will call for a sword against him on all my mountains, declares the Sovereign Lord; every man's sword will be against his brother. 38:22 I will enter into judgment with him with pestilence and bloodshed. I will rain on him and on his troops and on the many peoples who are with him with torrential rains, hailstones, fire, and brimstone. 38:23 I will be exalted and sanctified, and will make myself known before many nations. Then they will know that I am the Lord.' ![[Bible]](graemlins/bible.gif)
Posts: 79 | From: Swanzey, NH | Registered: Sep 2002
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Kindgo
Advanced Member
Member # 2
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posted
What the Bible Says: “Persia [Iran], Ethiopia [Sudan/Ethiopia], and Put [Libya] with them [Russia, Islamic Republics south of Russia, verse 3], Gomer… Beth-Togarmah [Turkey/Armenia]…many peoples with you… After many days you will be summoned; in the latter years you will come into the land that is restored from the sword, whose inhabitants have been gathered from many nations to the mountains of Israel which had been a continual waste; but its people were brought out from the nations, and they are living securely, all of them.” Ezekiel 38:2-8
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God bless,
Kindgo
Inside the will of God there is no failure. Outside the will of God there is no success.
Posts: 4320 | From: Sunny Florida | Registered: Jun 2002
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BORN AGAIN
unregistered
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posted
Kindgo says quote:
Israel will be attacked by the land NORTH of her, if you go North of Israel there is nothing else there but Russia. (bold by BA)
Actually, north of Israel is Lebanon, and north of Lebanon is Syria, and north of Syria is east Turkey and west Iraq, and north of those is the Caucasus which historically was an independent region (now called Chechnya) from what is now Russia.
God bless, ![[Cross]](graemlins/cross.gif) BORN AGAIN
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Kindgo
Advanced Member
Member # 2
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posted
Here is a Chronology of Russian History
I thought you might like this, since you are going to Russia... ![[Kiss]](graemlins/Kiss.gif)
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God bless,
Kindgo
Inside the will of God there is no failure. Outside the will of God there is no success.
Posts: 4320 | From: Sunny Florida | Registered: Jun 2002
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Kindgo
Advanced Member
Member # 2
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posted
chestnutmare, ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
You asking me what Bible I am reading is really not necessary! ![[Confused]](confused.gif)
quote:
: misguided speculations regarding these people and places as a poor substitute for fact and confusing a lot of people.
Hey you are the one who asked my opinion! ![[hmm]](graemlins/icon14.gif)
I am not misguided nor am I trying to confuse anyone. ![[mad2]](graemlins/mad2.gif)
I hope that we are sisters in Christ, I am sorry that you disagree with me and what I believe, but I believe what I read in the Bible.
Israel will be attacked by the land NORTH of her, if you go North of Israel there is nothing else there but Russia.
Most prophetic scholars agree that Gog and Magog were the people who lived in the lands which are now modern Russia.
Someday, Russia and a horde of Middle East countries will launch a surprise attack against Israel. All but one-sixth of the Gog army will be destroyed upon the mountains of Israel.
(Ezekiel 38 and 39)
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God bless,
Kindgo
Inside the will of God there is no failure. Outside the will of God there is no success.
Posts: 4320 | From: Sunny Florida | Registered: Jun 2002
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chestnutmare
Advanced Member
Member # 392
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posted
Dear Kindgo:
What bible are you reading? The scriptures do NOT positively identify the land of Magog. The identiy of Gog and Magog remain uncertain. I am afraid that you are using misguided speculations regarding these people and places as a poor substitute for fact and confusing a lot of people.
The hebrew word that is translated to ro'sh meaning prince does not refer to Russia. The word for Russia didn't exist until the 9th century so shouldn't be confused here.
Again, I would encourage you to consider Ray Dillards tape on Gog and Magog.
Posts: 79 | From: Swanzey, NH | Registered: Sep 2002
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Kindgo
Advanced Member
Member # 2
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posted
chestnutmare,
Ezekiel 38:4 says that God will “put hooks into the jaws” of the Russians and draw them down against Israel. Verse 12 says the hook will be the desire “to capture spoil and to seize plunder.”
Prophecy teachers have long argued that the prize that will lure the Russians will most likely be the mineral riches of the Dead Sea, or perhaps a major oil strike in Israel.
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God bless,
Kindgo
Inside the will of God there is no failure. Outside the will of God there is no success.
Posts: 4320 | From: Sunny Florida | Registered: Jun 2002
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chestnutmare
Advanced Member
Member # 392
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posted
This doesn't refer to Russia!
I would challenge you to prove biblically and through sound scholarship your point about Gog (which refers to a person) Magog which refers to a place (not Russia) and Rush which refers to a prince.
Kindgo check out the following:
Gog and Magog: Ezekiel 38 and 39
by Raymond Dillard
available through the Westminster Theological Seminary bookstore:
http://www.wts.edu/bookstore/facot.html#dillard_tapes
Posts: 79 | From: Swanzey, NH | Registered: Sep 2002
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Kindgo
Advanced Member
Member # 2
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posted
chestnutmare check this out... ![[eek]](eek.gif)
web page
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God bless,
Kindgo
Inside the will of God there is no failure. Outside the will of God there is no success.
Posts: 4320 | From: Sunny Florida | Registered: Jun 2002
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chestnutmare
Advanced Member
Member # 392
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posted
Are you suggesting that Russia is connected with "Gog, of the land of Magog"?
Posts: 79 | From: Swanzey, NH | Registered: Sep 2002
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Kindgo
Advanced Member
Member # 2
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posted
newshttp://gopusa.com/news/2003/march/0...militaryp.shtml
Russian Ships Headed for Persian Gulf
By Gregg Bish
GOPUSA News
March 5, 2003
MOSCOW, RUSSIA (GOPUSA News) -- While Russia has not made a clear statement either supporting or rejecting the idea of war with Iraq, the Russian military has begun preparations for any such action. The Russian news outlet "Izvestiya" reported on March 3 that two Russian cruisers from the Pacific fleet, the "Admiral Pantaleev" and the "Marshal Shaposhnikov," will sail to the Persian Gulf. The two cruisers are expected to join other elements from the Black Sea fleet headed by the "Moskva."
The Russian warships are not the only deployment being announced by the Russian military. Radio Free Europe in Prague reports that Colonel General Yurii Baluevskii, first deputy chief of the General Staff announced that Russia has sent a delegation to the United Nations Security Council to discuss the possibility of sending Russian military observers to monitor the situation in Iraq. Baluevskii stated that the troops would not participate in any military action against Iraq, but would only "monitor the situation around Baghdad."
The presence of Russian troops in the Middle East would add an additional dimension to the military calculus in dealing with Saddam Hussein. The Russian political position has wavered from one of non-interference with a new resolution to a possible veto of a new resolution. The presence of Russian troops in Iraq could complicate the logistics of any military action, causing the U.S. and coalition forces to make additional considerations for the safety of the Russian troops.
Russia is a known nuclear power, a dominant figure in world politics, and a potent military presence. While Russian-American relations have warmed considerably with the Bush administration, the Russians have made no excuses for their opposition to any war with Iraq. Russia has been a key ally of Iraq in the past, and has significant financial assets at risk in the event of a war.
the Russians have made no excuses for their opposition to any war with Iraq. Russia has been a key ally of Iraq in the past, and has significant financial assets at risk in the event of a war.
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Anybody think this Gog/Magog pre-trib war scenario just got an extra boost of probability as happening right now before our eyes?
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God bless,
Kindgo
Inside the will of God there is no failure. Outside the will of God there is no success.
Posts: 4320 | From: Sunny Florida | Registered: Jun 2002
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