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Originally posted by JefffreyLloyd:

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Originally posted by Kindgo:
ThePrayerWarrior Please........check this page out, before you start pointing fingers.

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Catholic artwork is famous for immortalizing Jesus in one of two helpless positions - either as a baby in His mother's arms or dead/dying on the cross. Mary, on the other hand, is portrayed as the strong one - the nurturer, protector and caretaker. - From that website Kindgo posted

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This is typical anti Catholic nonsense. Our parish has a HUGE Jesus statue depicting his resurrection, hardly the helpless savior.

Instead of going to anti Catholic websites to learn about Jesus, how about reading the words and teachings of the Catholic Church
Knights of Columbus - Catechism of the Catholic Church

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Originally posted by helpforhomeschoolers:
Are Catholics Christian?
Copyright: Dr Joe Mizzi, 2002.

I am sorry homeschool but I have to disagree with virtually everything you have posted here and how you have twisted scripture. I would have to say that you are deceived my friend and you do not even know it. I can tell you are sincere but you do not or will not accept the fullness of Christian truth at your disposal.

If your claims are SO right, then certainly those early Christians that learned the faith directly from the apostles themselves would agree with you and your beliefs, right? I urge you to study the works of those early Church fathers and see for yourself.

Question Are Catholics Christians? If not, why? This is not a negative question. I desire to honestly know if Catholics are considered to be part of the Christian faith.
Answer This is a most important question anybody can ask. Am I a Christian? Or am I one in name only? Do I have a living relationship with Christ?

Well, then, who is really a Christian? Like the Jews of old, people still fool themselves thinking they are right with God because of some ritual (like circumcision or baptism) or because of their heritage (I was born into a Christian family and attend a Christian church).

Yes baptism of the second covenant replaces circumcision of the first as your means of becoming a child of God and as the normative first step towards eternal salvation with God.

Colossians 2:11-12
11 and in Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ;
12 having been buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised up with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead.

1 Peter 3:21
21 Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you--not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience--through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

Baptism is the first step towards salvation with JESUS CHRIST. This has always been understood by historical, traditional, Biblical Christians and the message was not perverted until a couple hundred years ago and even then it is still only a small number who have been deceived.

According to the Bible, a true Christian is chosen by God before the foundation of the world, redeemed and forgiven by the blood of Christ, illuminated by the Spirit to know the truth of the Gospel. A Christian is someone who trusts in Christ for his salvation, and gives all praise to God for His grace. (Please refer to Ephesians 1:3-13).

Catholics very much do trust in JESUS CHRIST our Lord and Savior for our salvation. If it were through any other then what would be the point??? Have you been into a Catholic Church and seen JESUS on the cross? How could you not know as a Catholic that He suffered and died for us on the cross to exact our salvation, a salvation in which we do not deserve!

Does a Roman Catholic fit this description? Superficially he does. He believes in Christ and speaks about the grace of God. But if he follows the official teaching of the Roman Catholic Church, regretfully I must say that he does not really believe in Christ nor does he know the grace of God. Please allow me to explain.

How can you even purport to make such a statement ..."judge not lest thee be judged" ... are you Catholic? Even if you know a Catholic, is he practicing his Christian faith, if not he is complacent like many other Christians in ALL denominations so he is not a good source. As a Catholic, if you were to follow the teachings of the Church you would be completely holy and in love with JESUS CHRIST!

The Gospel teaches that "a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law" (Romans 3:28).

This is another "tradition of men" inacted by Martin Luther of the protestant reformation along with his idea of "sola scriptura". Nowhere in scripture does it say that were are justified by "faith alone", in fact it is quite the opposite.

James 2:14-26
17 Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself.
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar?
22 You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected;
24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.
26 For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.

In Romans 3, you took that passage out of context not stating the following verses.

Romans 3:28-31 (RSV)
28: For we hold that a man is justified by faith apart from works of law.
29: Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also,
30: since God is one; and he will justify the circumcised on the ground of their faith and the uncircumcised through their faith.
31: Do we then overthrow the law by this faith? By no means! On the contrary, we uphold the law.

Verse 31 which you did not state shows that faith does not abolish the law!

To faith, Rome adds a set of deeds (many of which are human inventions), and curses anyone who dares to completely trust in Christ alone for salvation. 'If anyone says that the faith that justifies is nothing else but trust in the divine mercy, which pardons sins because of Christ, or that it is that trust alone by which we are justified, let him be anathema.' (Council of Trent, session 6, cannon 12).

The Catholic Church, the bride and Body of CHRIST, is the guardian of the truth of the Gospel of JESUS CHRIST therefore she must protect the Gospel from those who wish to pervert it.

We firmly believe that our sins are pardoned because of the sacrifice of Christ alone. Rome would have us perform acts of penance and suffer in purgatory to expiate our sins.

I have gone over purgatory before but a moderator here DELETED my post. Purgatory is a form of cleansing or santification if you will before we enter heaven, it is completely Biblical ... "nothing unclean shall enter heaven".

The Bible proclaims Christ, the Priest who offered himself once for all. Rome would have us apply to her priests who daily offer their sacrifices on the altar. The Bible proclaims Christ as the only Mediator, Rome would have us apply to other mediators, like Mary, the saints and the church.

I have gone over this before also, all that you mention is Biblical. JESUS CHRIST is indeed our one mediator but that does not proclude us from asking other Christians "saints" in the mystical Body of Christ to pray for us. I am sure you do the same.

I will get to the rest of your post when I have more time.

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Posts: 188 | From: Midwest USA | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Catholicious:

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Posts: 22 | From: CT | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Kindgo:
ThePrayerWarrior Please........check this page out, before you start pointing fingers.

web page

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Catholic artwork is famous for immortalizing Jesus in one of two helpless positions - either as a baby in His mother's arms or dead/dying on the cross. Mary, on the other hand, is portrayed as the strong one - the nurturer, protector and caretaker. - From that website Kindgo posted

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Posts: 122 | From: Michigan | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by ThePrayerWarrior:
I am quite shocked how many of you think Roman Catholics aren't Christians. It hurts me to see Christians think such things...

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Posts: 122 | From: Michigan | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Birdinparadise:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Catholicious:

No offense taken. I believe it extremely important to discuss CHRIST always in charity. As a Catholic, did you not understand that JESUS CHRIST our Lord and Savior is truly present, Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity in the Blessed Sacrament, the Eucharist which we receive at every Mass?


I agree with you about discussing the Lord in charity (it would appear that we agree on at least that point--and that he IS Lord). This is my personal opinion and I am by no means attacking you or your church. I however clearly recall several friends, when we were small children being terrified to chew the sacramental host (communion for those that don't know the lingo)--for fear that it was a sin...because this nonscence is what we were taught. The very idea that communion actually turns LITERALLY as the Catholics do into the body and blood of Christ. I believe he meant it to be symbolic.Something to prepare the Apostles for what was to come. Something for them to hold onto till the spirit came.

[Catholicious] JESUS presence in the Eucharist is NOT symbolic, it is completely literal, why would JESUS repeat Himself so many times in John 6?

John 6:32-71 (KJV)
35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.
41 The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven.
48 I am that bread of life.
51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
52 The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat?
53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.
56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.
57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.
58 This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.
60 Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it?
63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
66 From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.

How can JESUS make it anymore clear that the Bread and Wine truly BECOME His Body and Blood??? If you choose to ignore the entirety of John 6 you may wish to appeal to John 6:63 to defend your position, that the flesh does not profit and the words He speaks are spirit and life.
He is saying our flesh profits nothing, he certainly does not mean HIS OWN FLESH profits nothing! Think about it. And yes the words He speaks to us are spirit and life, of course but that does not take away from what He has just revealed to us. Also, would He make such a dramatic case repeating Himself over and over and over again just to say at the end, nah I was just kidding??? That would make Him out to be foolish. And here is the clincher, His disciples stop following Him over this issue because they cannot accept the teaching and He does not correct them like he had in the past when they did not understand. Here is another reason why arguing from a symbolic sense does not make sense using John 6:63, because He
says this BEFORE His disciples leave!!! This means that if the reason they were leaving Him was because they could not believe that He was actually giving them His actual Body and Blood to eat, they certainly would not have left after He just clarified that it was symbolic in John 6:63! Those disciples knew what JESUS meant, He did not correct them because He knew they knew what He meant but they could not accept it so He let them leave.

1 Corinthians 11:23-30 (KJV)
27 Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.
29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.

1 Cor 11:23-30 further illustrates this reality.

What the early Christians believed about the Eucharist:

Ignatius of Antioch
"I have no taste for corruptible food nor for the pleasures of this life. I desire the bread of God, which is the flesh of Jesus Christ, who was of the seed of David; and for drink I desire his blood, which is love incorruptible" (Letter to the Romans 7:3 [A.D. 110]).
"Take note of those who hold heterodox opinions on the grace of Jesus Christ which has come to us, and see how contrary their opinions are to the mind of God. . . . They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer because they do not confess that the Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ, flesh which suffered for our sins and which that Father, in his goodness, raised up again. They who deny the gift of God are perishing in their disputes" (Letter to the Smyrnaeans 6:2–7:1 [A.D. 110]).

Justin Martyr
"We call this food Eucharist, and no one else is permitted to partake of it, except one who believes our teaching to be true and who has been washed in the washing which is for the remission of sins and for regeneration [i.e., has received baptism] and is thereby living as Christ enjoined. For not as common bread nor common drink do we receive these; but since Jesus Christ our Savior was made incarnate by the word of God and had both flesh
and blood for our salvation, so too, as we have been taught, the food which has been made into the Eucharist by the Eucharistic prayer set down by him, and by the change of which our blood and flesh is nurtured, is both the flesh and the blood of that incarnated Jesus" (First Apology 66 [A.D. 151]).

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Catholicious:
We cannot be lead by emotions and feelings alone, they can lead you astray.


You have to have FAITH that you won't be led astray..trust in the Holy Spirit...it's called stepping out of the boat and focusing on the Lord.

[Catholicious] I agree but a lack of faith is what caused His followers to leave JESUS in John 6:66 but remember through God all things are possible.

Matthew 19
26 But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Catholicious:
We as Catholics have amazing power and flexibility in our prayer life and our participation in the sacraments. We can go directly to Christ if we wish but because of our understanding of the mystical Body of Christ we understand that the saints are not dead, in fact they are more alive than we are and they are interceding on our behalf.

...you're missing another important point. WE as the church ARE the saints.

[Catholicious] Yes, the mystical Body of Christ, those in Christ here on earth and in Heaven are saints ... we are one Body ...

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Catholicious:
We are not forced to confess our sins to a priest although it is recommended to go at least once a year (he is acting through Christ to forgive sins, not on his own authority), we can personally ask God for forgiveness but it is most beneficial to go to a priest in that prior to the meeting you make a good "examination of conscience" (to make an accurate account of those sins you have committed and at the time of confession you hear those words of absolution "Your sins are forgiven you."

More beneficial than going directly to God?

[Catholicious] Yes, we are still going to God and also we get the necessary feedback that we have been forgiven our sins. Why would JESUS commission the apostles to forgive sins in His absence only for that power to die with them??? This was a gift for all time. Think about it.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Catholicious:
What you do not understand is that the source of your salvation was actually your baptism, presumably as a child, not your personal proclamation to our Lord This idea you profess of being "born again" is only a couple hundred years ago.

Try 2,000 years ago. When Jesus said so.

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Posts: 188 | From: Midwest USA | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Birdinparadise:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Catholicious:
If you left the Catholic Church, I can only postulate that you were not taught or did not understand your faith. Otherwise how could you leave Jesus behind?!?

I think you are missing the point (no offense to you Catholicious). I did NOT leave Jesus behind. Actually, let me rephrase--he did not leave ME behind. When I was in the Catholic faith (and I am in no way saying that there aren't true believers in Jesus within your church) but when I was in your church I did NOT feel close to God.

No offense taken. I believe it extremely important to discuss CHRIST always in charity. As a Catholic, did you not understand that JESUS CHRIST our Lord and Savior is truly present, Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity in the Blessed Sacrament, the Eucharist which we receive at every Mass? Did you not realize that you could go to Church and pray before Him in the tabernacle and that you were truly in His presence? You cannot determine whether or not the Church is true by looking at those who claim to be Catholic. The Church is filled with both saints and sinners. Were these Catholics adamently following the teachings of Christ and His Church or were they complacent? The choice to follow Christ no matter what church you belong to is your OWN PERSONAL decision, the church cannot force you to zealously follow our Lord. We cannot be lead by emotions and feelings alone, they can lead you astray. Almost every denomination or faith speaks of some feeling that lets them know that their faith is true. So when Mormons speak of "a burning in the busom" that lets them know that their faith is true are we to conclude that Mormonism is the true faith? Of course not, we cannot be lead by feeling alone, we must appeal to reason and truth.

in fact...Between confessing to a priest, then praying to saints etc and being taught that we (because we are not "sanctified" priests,cardinals,bishops and the like) had no power as Christians.

We as Catholics have amazing power and flexibility in our prayer life and our participation in the sacraments. You being a Catholic HAD to know that we were not forced to pray to saints, it is an option that is available to us. We can go directly to Christ if we wish but because of our understanding of the mystical Body of Christ we understand that the saints are not dead, in fact they are more alive than we are and they are interceding on our behalf.

Revelation 8:3-4 (KJV)
3 And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.
4 And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand.

Same way with confession to a priest, Christ commissioned His apostles to preach the Gospel and forgive sins.

John 20:21-23 (KJV)
21 Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you.
22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:
23 Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.

We are not forced to confess our sins to a priest although it is recommended to go at least once a year (he is acting through Christ to forgive sins, not on his own authority), we can personally ask God for forgiveness but it is most beneficial to go to a priest in that prior to the meeting you make a good "examination of conscience" (to make an accurate account of those sins you have committed and at the time of confession you hear those words of absolution "Your sins are forgiven you." Hearing personally that your sins are forgiven you is very powerful and liberating, and mind you this is NOT by his authority but by CHRIST because of his commission.

[b]Matthew 18:18 (KJV)
18 Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

I had never felt farther away. When I was saved in another denomination--and started bible study--it was THEN that I began to feel like I could really reach out and touch Jesus' hand.

I am sorry to hear that you felt that way birdsinparadise. What you do not understand is that the source of your salvation was actually your baptism, presumably as a child, not your personal proclamation to our Lord. I am not going to get into a big fight about this, baptism as the normative first step towards salvation is the traditional Christian understanding professed in the Bible and the early Church fathers. This idea you profess of being "born again" is only a couple hundred years ago. I implore you to research what those early Christians believed about the faith. The Catholic Church offers Bible study, there again it is on YOUR OWN initiative whether or not you decide to participate in that form of spiritual growth, the Church cannot force you. People proclaim this closeness to CHRIST in all Christian denominations, EVEN the one you left.

My entire point was that although the Catholic church may indeed be very old---there is a church that is older still...the church that believes in the TRUE power of the spirit.

Yes indeed the Catholic Church is old, but more than that it is the visible Church that Christ Himself founded when he gave Simon his three-fold blessing making him the Rock "Peter" upon
which the Church would be built. He gave Peter and Peter alone the keys to the kingdom [an ancient symbol of authority from Isaiah 22:22].

Matthew 16:18-19 (KJV)
17 And Jesus said to him, "Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.
18 "I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it.
19 "I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven."

The Catholic Church is not different from the Church of the apostles, it is one in the same with an unbroken continuity from CHRIST to present day. Those earliest Church fathers learned their faith directly from the apostles and already by the year 107 A.D. they were calling the Church Christ founded "catholic" which means universal.

I hope this helps and may the Holy Spirit guide you to all truth in your journey!

Peace and God Bless!
Catholicious


God Bless

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Originally posted by Birdinparadise:
[QB] It is sad because the Catholic Church is the oldest Christian Church in the world, and we actually have to defend ourselfs against our christian brothers and sisters.
Weelllllll--actually this is not necessarily "true". The APOSTLES were technically the first church--they were touched by the fire of the spirit--which as I recall as a former Catholic--was no longer considered "valid" in this day and age. If we really want to get down to the nitty gritty--let's also discuss the forced upon Catholic tradition, since childhood of being made to call priests "Father". Our savior directly says...
Matthew 23:9
" DO NOT (that dosen't mean MAYBE my Catholic bros and sisters) call anyone on earth your father; for ONE is your Father,He who is in Heaven."
the difference between being a Catholic and being Born Again is this...
NEVER before did the Roman Catholic Church discuss the power that is our inheritance through Christ. In fact, this power of the spirit was directly ignored..after all we aren't "priests,cardinals and bishops.." Only mere followers ( EVERYDAY believers you know like those APOSTLE guys!) The DIFFERENCE between being a Catholic and now? it feels as if 2,000 yrs in between the Master and us , NEVER HAPPENED.

God Bless

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Originally posted by wparr:
This can't be answered yes or no. Some catholics are christians, but being catholic doesn't make one a christian and more than sitting in a garage makes one a car

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It is sad because the Catholic Church is the oldest Christian Church in the world, and we actually have to defend ourselfs against our christian brothers and sisters.

Catholics do everything you said Art. It is a pitty that you don't know that.

I don't know how many times we have to say how much we love Christ and how we must believe in him for salvation.

That is sad.

Jeff

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Originally posted by art:
Jeffrey says:
This is truly sad.


Why is this sad?
The only sad part is that catholics "think" they are saved ,and have been decieved by the Vatican.
If they would come to the saviour as lost , helpless and hopeless sinners, and trust in Christ to be cleansed from sin, then the sadness can be turned into gladness.
Salvation is only in Christ, not in any religious organization.

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Posts: 122 | From: Michigan | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged | 

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This can't be answered yes or no. Some catholics are christians, but being catholic doesn't make one a christian and more than sitting in a garage makes one a car

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Posts: 436 | From: Mankato, Minnesota | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged |