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Author
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Topic: Post Trib or Pre Trib (Rapture)?
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Caretaker
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Member # 36
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posted
oldfreaky
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Member # 1788
posted July 19, 2003 10:01 PM
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I admit Revelations is a scarey read. Horns an heads and them pale riders deep in rivers of blood, sorry kids, it ain't gonna happen.
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The Word of God says that it will . I believe the Word.
In the Rapture our Lord Jesus gathers His Bride, in whom His spirit dwells, (He who now letteth), from
the earth prior to that man of sin being revealed, "2 Thess.2:
2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out
of the way.
2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth,
and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
In verse 2:7 we see the term "he who now letteth", this is a direct reference to the restraining influence of the Holy Spirit, who indwells all believers. Until He be taken away, and THEN that man of sin is revealed.
Please note that the lifting away of believers is NOT the second Advent for Christ does not set foot upon
the mount of Olives, we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds,
to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
The Rapture
Matt. 25:1-13
25:1 Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went
forth to meet the bridegroom.
25:2 And five of them were wise, and five were foolish.
25:3 They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them:
25:4 But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.
25:5 While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept.
25:6 And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.
25:7 Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps.
25:8 And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.
25:9 But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather
to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.
25:10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to
the marriage: and the door was shut.
25:11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
25:12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.
25:13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.
Thess. 4:17-5-6
4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel,
and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet
the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail
upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
5:5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of
darkness.
5:6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.
2 Thess.2:
2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out
of the way.
2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth,
and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the
love of the truth, that they might be saved.
2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
"Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the
twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised
incorruptible, and we shall be changed." (1 Cor. 15:51-52)
The Coming of the Lord
Matt. 24:29-31
24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall
not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the
earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great
glory.
24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his
elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Rev. 19:11-16
19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called
Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
19:12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name
written, that no man knew, but he himself.
19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen,
white and clean.
19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall
rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty
God.
19:16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD
OF LORDS.
Rev. 19:8
"To her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
Rev. 19:14
"And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean."
Notice the fine linen white and clean is the righteousness of saints, which are in heaven.
We will then return with the Lord to the earth, and He will destroy the wicked and establish the Millennial Kingdom, and His saints will reign with Him on earth for one thousand years (Rev. 20:1-7).
Zech. 12:10
12:10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of
grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall
mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in
bitterness for his firstborn.
Zech. 14:4-9
14:4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the
east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west,
and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and
half of it toward the south.
14:5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto
Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of
Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.
14:6 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:
14:7 But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come
to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.
14:8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward
the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.
14:9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his
name one.
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A Servant of Christ,
Drew
1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..
Posts: 3978 | From: Council Grove, KS USA | Registered: Jun 2002
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oldfreaky
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I admit Revelations is a scarey read. Horns an heads and them pale riders deep in rivers of blood, sorry kids, it ain't gonna happen.
Posts: 5 | From: kansas | Registered: Jul 2003
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oldfreaky
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There will be no such thing as this "twinkling" rapture.
Posts: 5 | From: kansas | Registered: Jul 2003
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Daniel S
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Member # 1714
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posted
quote:
MT 24:15 "So when you see standing in the holy place `the abomination that causes desolation,' spoken of through the prophet Daniel--let the reader understand-- 16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let no one on the roof of his house go down to take anything out of the house. 18 Let no one in the field go back to get his cloak. 19 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! 20 Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now--and never to be equaled again. 22 If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened.
Let's take this bit by bit:
quote:
MT 24:15 "So when you see standing in the holy place `the abomination that causes desolation,' spoken of through the prophet Daniel--let the reader understand--
When the anti-christ stands in the Temple and declares himself to be "God" ...
...then it's time to "flee," to get out of there...
If we are gone (raptured at that time, how can we (or why should we) flee; we'll be with Christ. Then we read:
quote:
20 Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath.
Why would it be "our" flight (think to whom Christ is addressing this warning), if we are gone (raptured).
Continuing on, we are told by Jesus:
quote:
For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now--and never to be equaled again. 22 If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened.
It seems that Jesus is clearly pointing at least to the persecution of God's people (the great tribulation) by the anti-christ (the "little horn"), if not the "wrath of God" which will directly precede the second coming. But notice vs 22's "...cut short... for the sake of the elect..." Jesus speaks as if this has already happened, and in His perspective of omniscience (complete knowledge), and omnipresence (being everywhere and everywhen), it is completed while for us, it shall be. God will save His elect and bring them out of the worst of it.
The church will clearly be around through the first 3 1/2 years of that 70th week. When after that will the rapture take place? It seems we'll have to go through some of that 3 1/2 years, at least!
I look at Daniel as the overview of the whole 70th week, the Olivet discourse as the details of that week, and Revelation as the details of the last part of that 70th week, the millenium, and the end of the end times. When you start with that perspective, you loose the vagueness involved with what I call "7+ year tribulation terminology."
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The Lord bless you indeed.
http://www.First-EMC.org (shameless self promotion)
Posts: 436 | From: on the Ohio River | Registered: Jun 2003
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secretagentgirl007
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posted
I think that the rapture will be pre-trib...but i wish it wasn't! i really want to stick around - i mean what a great adventure! and think about how much good you could do! and i also don't think america will be around...i think america is the babylon the bible talks about...it says this babylon has a mother(england), she has prospered from other nations, she sits upon many waters, she has many diffrent nationalities living within her...it all fits. that's just my 2 cents though! ![[1zhelp]](graemlins/1zhelp.gif)
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digory
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Member # 1711
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posted
Well, for one..."The church is not appointed to wrath" and 2..as it describes the events of the tribulation, it says before these things come to pass, the church will be taken up.
It could very well point to a pre. But like helpfor, using bibical terms, it could also point to a mid. 3 1/2 years into it. Which would also make sense that God would have us stay here for as long as possible to take as many with us as we can.
The US is going to be reduced to a second rate nation during this time. What would cause that? The US has the highest concentration of Christians than any country in the world. And if our President has his way (Lord let him have his way!) We'll wind up up with largely Christian leadership.
What would happen to the US if the top leadership and 1/3 of the population just -POOF- was gone?
Folks, now is the time to take the great commission more serious than ever.
Lets take as many with us as we can!
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1 Cor 16:13-14
Be watchful, stand firm in the faith, be men of courage, be strong and do everything in love.
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Daniel S
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I agree with "Helpforhomeschoolers" in that we ought to use Biblical terminology in this subject. Christ called the beginnings of the 70th week "the beginnings of sorrow (or travail)."
The mid-point of this 70th week is marked by the abomination that brings desolation standing in the Temple and instituting a period of "great tribulation" which will end with the "wrath of God." Revelation portrays the church as dressed in white and coming out of the "great tribulation." So does that mean they will come out at the mid-point of the 70th week (pre-great trib)?... after the persecution (great tribulation) but before the Wrath of God?... or when Jesus comes to toss the beast and the false prophet into the lake of fire and the dragon into the pit (for a thousand years). One might find a clue in what is said to the souls John sees under the throne in Heaven.
Did we muddy the water up some more? I hope so, because it points out the need to use the Word - and the terminology within the Word.
How's this for a first post?
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The Lord bless you indeed.
http://www.First-EMC.org (shameless self promotion)
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Handmaiden4Him
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posted
I believe that we will go through the tribulation
But will not see the wrath of God.
God bless.
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YOUR will,................not mine.
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Doreen
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I believe that the rapture will be pre trib ![[clap2]](graemlins/clap2.gif)
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Doreen
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helpforhomeschoolers
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posted
I think our problem arises with the word tirbulation itself. It is we who call the seven year period that is Daniel's 70th week "The Great tribulation". Or some who call only the second 1/2 of this 7 year period "The Great Tribulation"
The WORD does not name it as "The great Tribulation" IT IS DANIEL's 70th Week; and the last 1/2 of it is a time of great tribulation
The word "tribulation" is used 22 times in the Bible. Three of those times are in the OT and the rest in the new tesitment.
The word tribulation means in Hebrew:
6862 ru tsar tsar or ru tsar tsawr
from 06887; TWOT-1973a, 1973b, 1974a, 1975a; adj
AV-enemy 37, adversary 26, trouble 17, distress 5, affliction 3, foes 2, narrow 2, strait 2, flint 1, sorrow 1, misc 9; 105
1) narrow, tight
2) straits, distress
3) adversary, foe, enemy, oppressor
4) hard pebble, flint
And in Greek...
347 yliqiv thlipsis thlip’-sis
from 2346; TDNT-3:139,334; n f
AV-tribulation 21, affliction 17, trouble 3, anguish 1, persecution 1, burdened 1, to be afflicted + 1519 1; 45
1) a pressing, pressing together, pressure
2) metaph. oppression, affliction, tribulation, distress, straits
There is no denying that Christians will undergo and need to endure tribulation in this life! But the severity of the tribulation is where the problem comes in and we use the term "the great tribulation"
The first time we see the word tribulation, it is in Deuteronomy 4:30, where God speaks to the Isrealites in the desert and explains that tribulation (times of adversity) will come, but if the seek HIS face, He will not forsake them, destroy them, or forget the covenant that He made with their fathers!
Dueteronomy 4:29 But if from thence thou shalt seek the LORD thy God, thou shalt find him, if thou seek him with all thy heart and with all thy soul.
30 When thou art in tribulation, and all these things are come upon thee, even in the latter days, if thou turn to the LORD thy God, and shalt be obedient unto his voice; {are…: Heb. have found thee}
31 (For the LORD thy God is a merciful God;) he will not forsake thee, neither destroy thee, nor forget the covenant of thy fathers which he sware unto them.
In Judges, we see that God is angry with the Israelites who have through out this time gone through cycles of repentance and backsliding; When times are bad, they turn to God, when things get better they forget God and turn to other gods. God tells them hear that their other gods cannot save them, and they repent, again for a time...
Judges 10:14 Go and cry unto the gods which ye have chosen; let them deliver you in the time of your tribulation.
15 And the children of Israel said unto the LORD, We have sinned: do thou unto us whatsoever seemeth good unto thee; deliver us only, we pray thee, this day. {seemeth…: Heb. is good in thine eyes}
16 And they put away the strange gods from among them, and served the LORD: and his soul was grieved for the misery of Israel.
In I Samuel, we see David again being delivered into the hands of Saul, and again, Saul does not slay him. David trusts the Lord to deliver him out of his tribulation.
I Samuel 26:24 And, behold, as thy life was much set by this day in mine eyes, so let my life be much set by in the eyes of the LORD, and let him deliver me out of all tribulation.
25 Then Saul said to David, Blessed be thou, my son David: thou shalt both do great things, and also shalt still prevail. So David went on his way, and Saul returned to his place.
As I type this I cant help but find myself struck by this comparison... Here is Saul, Israel's first earthly king... disobedient, trying to do it his way (Remeber, he made offering himself, not waiting for the priest as God had commanded and this would cost him the throne) Here he is struggling with jealously over the one who would succeed him on the throne. David in contrast, certainly not without sin, but with something Saul did not have, a relationship with the Lord, trust in the Lord, quick to repent, sinning perhaps too often, but not the same sin, learning from his mistakes. David Israel's greatest king, and the throne that was to be filled with the Last King, the King of Kings Christ Jesus!
I am struck by the similarity here between Israel, and the Christian, and Saul and David.
The last shall be first, the first shall be last.
Relationship, and repentance from the heart, or legalistic sacrifice, and attempt by man to save himself; sacrifice of the spirit of the law to uphold the letter... as Saul did by not waiting.
I want to continue on here, but I dont want to miss this either. I think this particular verse is significant. David trusted that God would deliver him out of all tribulation.
moving on...
Here we see that Christians will suffer tribulation or persecution because of their faith and having not established a good root system in the word this will become a stumbling block and lead to sin.
Matthew 13:21 Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.
Below is the first time great is used with tribulation. Notice that this will happen when the ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION IS SEEN.
Matthew 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Now dont all you mid trib rapture people go jumping in here with your "SEE"
If we go to the chapter in Daniel where this abomination is spoken of... Chapter 12, We see that this prophesy is shut up till the end. This is the time of Israel's 70th week.
Daniel 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
The 70 weeks are for Daniel's People
The 70 weeks are for the Holy CIty of Jerusalem
The 70 weeks will finish the trasngession against the Jew and the city of Jerusalem
The 70 weeks will make reconcilliation for inequity
Whose inequity????
The Jews! Our reconcillitation was made on the cross!
The 70 weeks will bring everlasting righteousness
EVERLASTING RIGHTEOUSNESS IS A PERSON! WHO IS CHRIST!
Christ will return at the end of the 70 weeks of Daniel!
The Most Holy will be annointed at the end of 70 weeks.
Christ left the slain Lamb; He will come back the annointed King that sits on the throne od David! At the end of the 70 weeks that have been appointed for all these things.. appointed to the people of Daniel (the Jew) and the Holy City (Jerusalem!)
We are told that immediately after this Christ will be seen coming in the clouds, and all the tribes of the earth will morn.
Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
The phrase "great tribulation is not used again until the book of revelation.
These scriptures all speak of tribulation, trials, and Christians suffer these everyday. We I think in the west, have a distorted view of what tribulation for the word is. The disciples were brutally murdered for their claiming of the Christ. Today around the world Christians are brutally attacked persecuted and murdered for the claiming the Christ.
We are to be of good cheer even in tribulation...
John 16:33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.
The disciples exhorted those that they had preached to that their entering the Kingdom would not come without much trial and tribulation... this is a historical fact for the new church!
Acts 14:22 Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.
Tribulation also comes to those who do evil.. whether Jew or Gentile.
Romans 2:9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; {Gentile: Gr. Greek}
But here is good news! We who live by faith have hope!
Romans 5:2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
We can glory in tribulations, because they work in us patience, a fruit of the Spirit!
Roman's 5:3 And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;
4 And patience, experience; and experience, hope:
5 And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.
6 ¶ For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. {in due time: or, according to the time}
7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.
8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
WE ARE NOW JUSTIFIED; saved from the anger (wrath) of God
9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
WE ARE ALREADY RECONCILLED! REMEMBER THAT THE 70th WEEK OF DANIEL IS FOR RECONCILLIATION???
WE DO NOT NEED TO BE RECONCILLED WE ARE RECONCILLED NOW!!!!
10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.
Romans 8:35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
Romans 12:12 Rejoicing in hope; patient in tribulation; continuing instant in prayer;
2 Corinthians 1:4 Who comforteth us in all our tribulation, that we may be able to comfort them which are in any trouble, by the comfort wherewith we ourselves are comforted of God.
2 Corinthians 7:4 Great is my boldness of speech toward you, great is my glorying of you: I am filled with comfort, I am exceeding joyful in all our tribulation.
1 Thessalonians 3:4 For verily, when we were with you, we told you before that we should suffer tribulation; even as it came to pass, and ye know.
2 Thessalonians 1:6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
John suffered tribulation....
Revelation 1:9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.
The persecuted church at Smyrna would die in tribulation, blasphemed by the self righteous, Christ denying Jew; put in prison and then death... But they have nothing to fear! They will die but once!
Revelation 2:9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.
But now back to the time of "great tribulation" such as the world has never known, nor will ever know after it
Who will be cast into "great tribulation" ??
Revelation 2:22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.
Her is here some of the Church at Thyatira.
Thyratira was a working person town; famous for their dyed cloth, and pottery, a place with no specific religious loyalty, but a place where within the church of Christ, sexual sin was rampant, and imorality treated as no big deal. idolotry was present.. Like Jezzebel who systematically tried to lead the Isrealites away from God, and toward Baal worship.. some in this church are leading the flock astray! And they will be thrown into the time of "great tribulation" unless they repent.
Hopefully, we all know that the troubles of the 7 churches spoke not just to these 7 churches of the first century, but to us as individual members of the Body of Christ, and to the Churches of today... This is a call to all the church that has the spirit of Jezzebel to REPENT!
Please note that the church at Thyratira had works, Charity, service, faith,.. indeed greater works in the last days than in the beginning!
REV 2:19 I know thy works, and charity, and service, and faith, and thy patience, and thy works; and the last to be more than the first.
See also, that not all in the church at Thyratira have this to worry about! SOME will not have more burden than they have now...
24 But unto you I say, and unto the rest in Thyatira, as many as have not this doctrine, and which have not known the depths of Satan, as they speak; I will put upon you none other burden.
25 But that which ye have already hold fast till I come.
26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.
28 And I will give him the morning star.
29 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.
Some in the Church of Thyratira will no go into the time of "great tribulation" that is Daniel's 70th week! Some will have no more burden placed on them, because they do not hold the doctrine of Jezzebel!
Last, we see those that come out of Daniel's 70th week. In order to come out of great tribulation, one must first go into great tribulation.
Those of the Church at Thyratira that hold the Doctrine of Jezzebel are the only "church" that the Bible says will go into "great tribulation"
So we have Daniel's people who are appointed to the 70th week, as only 69 have passed. And we have some of the Church of Christ who have the doctine of Jezzebel.
When Daniel's 70th week begins, the time of the Gentiles is ended.
We must not muddy the 70th week and try to break it up because the abomination comes in the midway point. No part of the 69 weeks were for the gentiles; there is a time for the gentiles; and it is separate from the 70 weeks of daniel.
The seven year period before Christ comes back with His Bride by his side is the time for the people of daniel; the only part of the church that is said to enter the last half of this time is the part of the church that holds the doctrine of Jezzebel and she will not be raptured with the bride, but will be left. She will cry Lord Lord, and he will say... I never (ginwskw) you. (ginwskw- a Jewish idiom for sexual intercourse)
This is the left behind church that did not enter the bridal Chamber, which is in the father's house, and is the place of marriage consumation, with the groom.
This week is about Daniel's people and the Holy City Jerusalem. The Church will be gone, except for those who were waiting for the groom without their oil; those who had not prepared and sancitified themselves to the groom, those who were not ready because they held the doctrine of Jezzebel... Please think about how the docrine of Jezzebel is so prevalent in the church today!!! Most of the mainline churches embrace sin!!!! Here what Christ says to the Churches!
She will join the "friends of the groom" at the wedding supper of the lamb 7 years later, if she repents, when the Bride and the groom are presented to the world, but she has missed her chance to be the "Bride". She has washed her robe and it is white withthe blood of the lamb, but it is not fine linen as worn by the bride!
Revelation 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002
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Kindgo
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posted
Mac quote:
We are not exempt in this world from tribulation.
That statement is true, BUT we are exempt from the wrath of God.
The seven year Tribulation is the time that God will pour out His wrath on all that live on the earth. The scriptures tell us the Church will be removed before this happens.
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God bless,
Kindgo
Inside the will of God there is no failure. Outside the will of God there is no success.
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Miguel
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posted
The Church the Spiritual body of Christ will not have judgment for she have been given to Christ by God Himself, but she will be in trial! She has been for some time now.
We are not exempt in this world from tribulation.
(Psa 12:6) The Words of Jehovah are pure Words, like silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.
(Psa 24:3) Who shall go up into the hill of Jehovah? Or who shall stand in His holy place?
(Psa 24:4) He who has clean hands and a pure heart; who has not lifted up his soul to vanity, and has not sworn deceitfully.
(Psa 24:5) He shall receive the blessing from Jehovah, and righteousness from the God of his salvation.
(Psa 51:7) Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean; wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow.
(Psa 65:3) Things of iniquity are mightier than I; as for our transgressions, You shall purge them away.
(Pro 20:9) Who can say, I have made my heart clean; I am pure from my sin?
(Dan 12:10) Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried. But the wicked shall do wickedly. And none of the wicked shall understand, but the wise shall understand.
Mal 3:2 But who can endure the day of His coming? And who shall stand when He appears? For He is like a refiner's fire, and like fuller's soap.
Mal 3:3 And He shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver. And He shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may be offerers of a food offering in righteousness to Jehovah.
(Heb 9:13) For if the blood of bulls and of goats and the ashes of a heifer sprinkling the unclean sanctifies to the purifying of the flesh,
(Heb 9:14) how much more shall the blood of Christ (who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without spot to God) purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
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Romans 9:11-24
Our Eschatology may vary even our Ecclesiology may be disputed among us but our Soteriology most assume a singularity and exclusivity which in biblical term is known as Quote; "The Narrow Way" and Quote!
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Konnie
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posted
I believe the Rapture will be Pre Trib.
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NO Jesus, No Peace. Know Jesus, know peace.
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Gary
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posted
I agree, Kindgo and Caretaker!
Thanks, Drew, for your excellent posting of the appropriate scriptures.
I am a former Methodist, now reformed, Presbyterian, Calvinist, and pre-trib!
(How's that for being an odd duck?!)
Gary
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"For the wages of sin is death,
but the free gift of God is eternal life
in Christ Jesus our Lord."
Romans 6:23 NASB
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Caretaker
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In the Rapture our Lord Jesus gathers His Bride, in whom His spirit dwells, (He who now letteth), from the earth prior to that man of sin being revealed,
"2 Thess.2:
2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
In verse 2:7 we see the term "he who now letteth", this is a direct reference to the restraining influence of the Holy Spirit, who indwells all believers. Until He be taken away, and THEN that man of sin is revealed.
Please note that the lifting away of believers is NOT the second Coming for Christ does not set foot upon the mount of Olives, we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
The Rapture
Matt. 25:1-13
25:1 Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went
forth to meet the bridegroom.
25:2 And five of them were wise, and five were foolish.
25:3 They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them:
25:4 But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.
25:5 While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept.
25:6 And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.
25:7 Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps.
25:8 And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.
25:9 But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather
to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.
25:10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to
the marriage: and the door was shut.
25:11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
25:12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.
25:13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.
Thess. 4:17-5-6
4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
5:5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
5:6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.
2 Thess.2:
2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
"Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed." (1 Cor. 15:51-52)
The Coming of the Lord
Matt. 24:29-31
24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall
not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Rev. 19:11-16
19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called
Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
19:12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name
written, that no man knew, but he himself.
19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty
God.
19:16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD
OF LORDS.
Rev. 19:8
"To her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
Rev. 19:14
"And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean."
Notice the fine linen white and clean is the righteousness of saints, which are in heaven.
We will then return with the Lord to the earth, and He will destroy the wicked and establish the Millennial Kingdom, and His saints will reign with Him on earth for one thousand years (Rev. 20:1-7).
Zech. 12:10
12:10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
Zech. 14:4-9
14:4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
14:5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.
14:6 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:
14:7 But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come
to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.
14:8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.
14:9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.
The Righteous Reign:
Isaiah 11:
1: And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots:
2: And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD;
3: And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the LORD: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears:
4: But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked.
5: And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins.
6: The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.
7: And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.
8: And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den.
9: They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.
10: And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.
11: And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea.
12: And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.
13: The envy also of Ephraim shall depart, and the adversaries of Judah shall be cut off: Ephraim shall not envy Judah, and Judah shall not vex Ephraim.
14: But they shall fly upon the shoulders of the Philistines toward the west; they shall spoil them of the east together: they shall lay their hand upon Edom and Moab; and the children of Ammon shall obey them.
15: And the LORD shall utterly destroy the tongue of the Egyptian sea; and with his mighty wind shall he shake his hand over the river, and shall smite it in the seven streams, and make men go over dryshod.
16: And there shall be an highway for the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria; like as it was to Israel in the day that he came up out of the land of Egypt.
The Thousand Year Reign of Christ with His Saints:
1: And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2: And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3: And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4: And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5: But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6: Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
7: And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8: And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9: And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
10: And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
11: And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12: And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13: And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14: And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15: And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
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A Servant of Christ,
Drew
1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..
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Kindgo
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Member # 2
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posted
leeprice,
welcome to you ![[thumbsup]](graemlins/thumbsup2.gif) Glad you have joined us
and ![[happy]](graemlins/happyhappy.gif)
I am 100% sure after many years of study, the pre trib rapture doctine is the only one that fits the scriptures. Jesus will come back to earth only one more time that is true,
but
He will step out on the clouds (soon) and call all God's children home, before He pours out His wrath on the people that live on the earth.
This takes seven years, you know the seven years
that the prophet Daniel tells us about?
![[Smile]](graemlins/youpi.gif)
He then comes back to set up His Kingdom here on earth.
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God bless,
Kindgo
Inside the will of God there is no failure. Outside the will of God there is no success.
Posts: 4320 | From: Sunny Florida | Registered: Jun 2002
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leeprice
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Member # 1377
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posted
I'm not 100% sure, but here goes my line of reasoning : The Bible speaks of Christ's Second Coming. So : how can He come to take those raptured, and then come again after the tribulation?? Wouldn't that make it three times instead of just two?
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7"Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. 8For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened.
Matthew 7
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JefffreyLloyd
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posted
What about Amillennialism?
The amillennial view interprets Revelation 20 symbolically and sees the millennium not as an earthly golden age in which the world will be totally Christianized, but as the present period of Christ’s rule in heaven and on the earth through his Church. This was the view of the Protestant Reformers and is still the most common view among traditional Protestants, though not among most of the newer Evangelical and Fundamentalist groups.
Amillennialists also believe in the coexistence of good and evil on earth until the end. The tension that exists on earth between the righteous and the wicked will be resolved only by Christ’s return at the end of time. The golden age of the millennium is instead the heavenly reign of Christ with the saints, in which the Church on earth participates to some degree, though not in the glorious way it will at the Second Coming.
Amillennialists point out that the thrones of the saints who reign with Christ during the millennium appear to be set in heaven (Rev. 20:4; cf. 4:4, 11:16) and that the text nowhere states that Christ is on earth during this reign with the saints.
They explain that, although the world will never be fully Christianized until the Second Coming, the millennium does have effects on earth in that Satan is bound in such a way that he cannot deceive the nations by hindering the preaching of the gospel (Rev. 20:3). They point out that Jesus spoke of the necessity of "binding the strong man" (Satan) in order to plunder his house by rescuing people from his grip (Matt. 12:29). When the disciples returned from a tour of preaching the gospel, rejoicing at how demons were subject to them, Jesus declared, "I saw Satan fall like lightning" (Luke 10:18). Thus for the gospel to move forward at all in the world, it is necessary for Satan to be bound in one sense, even if he may still be active in attacking individuals (1 Pet. 5:8).
The millennium is a golden age not when compared to the glories of the age to come, but in comparison to all prior ages of human history, in which the world was swallowed in pagan darkness. Today, a third of the human race is Christian and even more than that have repudiated pagan idols and embraced the worship of the God of Abraham.
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Vivat Jesus!
Glory be to the Father, and to the Son and to the Holy Spirit. As it was in the beginning, is now and ever shall be, worlds without end. Amen.
Posts: 122 | From: Michigan | Registered: Mar 2003
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Bearer
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posted
According to the Scriptures: The Church which is the Bride of JESUS is not mentioned in Revelation after chapter 3. Also the Bride of JESUS which is the church does not suffer the wrath of GOD. And as it has already been pointed out The Anti-Christ can't come until the HOLY SPIRIT is removed, since we as believers have the HOLY SPIRIT in us. IF one goes the other must go too.
Hence a pre-tribulation rapture.
Serving JESUS til HE Comes
![[Lighthouse]](graemlins/lighthouse.gif)
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Mary At Bearer Ministries
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TEXASGRANDMA
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posted
I have always been taught the rapture will take place before the triublation. I pray that it is true.
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
http://www.indieheaven.com/artists/mm (son-in-law)http://www.myspace.com/mireles
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Kindgo
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posted
I believe the scriptures tell us the AC can not come to power while the church is here.
The AC signing a covenant with Israel will set off
the seven year tribulation.
We will be gone before that happens.
Could happen any second now!
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God bless,
Kindgo
Inside the will of God there is no failure. Outside the will of God there is no success.
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becauseHElives
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posted
There is another view that you have left out of the poll.
At this time I tend to believe that it will be
"Mid Trib (Rapture) or Pre Wrath Rapture"
For sure I do not see the True Church going through the WRATH of YESHUA, 1THESS 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
the word wrath in the book of Revelation, is not mentioned until “Revelation 6: 16”. I believe the sixth seal begins the Wrath being poured out on the earth an at this point the Church will be removed,
but as for as tribulation, the Scriptures tell us we are not exempt in this world from tribulation, but to the contrary……….
JN 16:33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.
ACTS 14:22 Confirming the souls of the disciples, [and] exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.
ROM 5:3 And not only [so], but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;
ROM 8:35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? [shall] tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
2THESS 1:4 So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure:
REV 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
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bcofHIM
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posted
Do you believe the Rapture will be post trib or pre trib?
Poll Information
This poll contains 1 question(s). 41 user(s) have voted.
You may not view the results of this poll without voting.
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