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Author
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Topic: Pushing Them Into the Sea
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Miguel
Advanced Member
Member # 47
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posted
Genesis 12:3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.
Psalms 122:6 Pray for the peace of Jerusalem: they shall prosper that love thee.
Romans 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, [of] the tribe of Benjamin.
Romans 11:2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
Romans 11:3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
Romans 11:4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to [the image of] Baal.
Romans 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then [is it] no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if [it be] of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
Romans 11:7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded
Romans 11:8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.
Romans 11:9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:
Romans 11:10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.
Romans 11:11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but [rather] through their fall salvation [is come] unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
Romans 11:12 Now if the fall of them [be] the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?
Romans 11:13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
Romans 11:14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation [them which are] my flesh, and might save some of them.
Romans 11:15 For if the casting away of them [be] the reconciling of the world, what [shall] the receiving [of them be], but life from the dead?
Romans 11:16 For if the firstfruit [be] holy, the lump [is] also [holy]: and if the root [be] holy, so [are] the branches.
Romans 11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
Romans 11:18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
Romans 11:19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
Romans 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
Romans 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, [take heed] lest he also spare not thee.
Romans 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in [his] goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
Romans 11:23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
Romans 11:24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural [branches], be graffed into their own olive tree?
Romans 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
Romans 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
Romans 11:27 For this [is] my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
Romans 11:28 As concerning the gospel, [they are] enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, [they are] beloved for the fathers' sakes.
Romans 11:29 For the gifts and calling of God [are] without repentance.
Romans 11:30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
Romans 11:31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
Romans 11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
Romans 11:33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable [are] his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
Romans 11:34 For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?
Romans 11:35 Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?
Romans 11:36 For of him, and through him, and to him, [are] all things: to whom [be] glory for ever. Amen.
Romans 15:27 It hath pleased them verily; and their debtors they are. For if the Gentiles have been made partakers of their spiritual things, their duty is also to minister unto them in carnal things.
Verse 24. For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree,.... As the apostle argues the possibility of bringing the Jews into a Gospel church state, from the power of God; so here the probability of it, or the easiness and likelihood of its being performed, from the ingrafting of the Gentiles; who were originally like an olive tree,
which is wild by nature, grows in the field, bears no fruit, and is useless and unprofitable; so they by nature were sinners of the Gentiles, children of wrath, full of unrighteousness, without any fruit of holiness; being not within the pale of the Jewish church and commonwealth; but in the wide field of the world, worthless, and of no account; and yet many were "cut out of" this wild olive tree; were, through the ministration of the Gospel, by the power of divine grace separated from the rest of the world; were effectually called and brought into a Gospel church state; God took out from among them a people for his name. This their being cut out of the wild olive, as it expresses the power and grace of God towards them, it might teach them humility, as it led them to observe their original state and condition:
and wert grafted, contrary to nature, into a good olive tree: for an olive tree being full of fatness, will not admit of ingrafting; nor was it ever usual to ingraft upon olive; hence the Jews say {y} xbkrh Nhb Nya Mytz, "there is no ingrafting on olives": besides, it is contrary to nature, use, and custom, to ingraft wild scions, or grafts of any sort into a good stock; but always good scions or grafts into a wild stock, for in wild hungry stocks, grafts grow best: but in the ingrafting of the Gentiles into a Gospel church state, just such a method was taken, as if a wild graft were let into a good stock; so that this ingrafting was not of nature, it was contrary to it; but of pure grace, and, sovereign good will and pleasure; and the apostle's argument is this, that if the Gentiles, who were originally as a wild olive tree; if some as grafts were taken out from among them, and, quite contrary to their own nature, and the nature of things, were, by the goodness and grace of God, grafted into a good olive, the Gospel church state;
how much more shall these which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree? that there is a greater likelihood, and more easily may it be, according to all appearance of things, that the Jews, the natural branches or descendants of Abraham, should be brought into a Gospel church state, which first began among them, and which at first only consisted of some of their nation. The Gospel church is called "their own olive tree," in allusion to Israel, or the Jewish church, which is often so called in their writings.
"Says {z} R. Joshua ben Levi, to what are the Israelites like? tyzl, "to an olive tree"; to teach them that as the leaves of an olive tree do not fall, neither on sunshine days, nor on rainy days; so the Israelites will never cease, neither in this world, nor in the world to come; and says R. Jochanan, to what are the Israelites like? "to an olive"; to teach thee that as an olive does not send forth its oil, but by the means of pressing, so the Israelites do not return to do good, but by the means of chastisement:" and says another {a} of their writers, "as oil ascendeth above all liquids, and is not mixed with them; so the Israelites ascend above all nations, and are not mixed with them; and there is an intimation that they are even like tyzl, "to an olive," that is pressed or squeezed; for so the Israelites are bruised and afflicted, and yet, notwithstanding all this, they ascend by virtue of the law, which is called 'oil olive.'" It is easy to see from whence this simile is borrowed.
Verse 25. For I would not, brethren,.... The apostle in order to raise the attention of the Gentiles to what he was about to deliver to them, not only styles them "brethren," expressing his affection for them, and their relation to him and other believing Jews, and to one another, being all one in Christ Jesus, partakers of the same grace, and heirs of the same glory; but also tells them, that what he had to acquaint them with was a "mystery," a thing secret and hidden, which had not been heard of and known, at least not so fully and clearly as he was about to reveal it; and because of his great respect for them, he was unwilling, as he says,
that ye should be ignorant of this mystery; he was desirous that they should abound and improve in all spiritual knowledge and judgment, and, among the rest, be better informed of this particular article, the call of the Jews: and his view in apprizing them of it is expressed in the following clause,
lest ye should be wise in your own conceits: lest they should imagine that they were the only wise and knowing persons, and be elated in their minds with their knowledge and understanding, and look with contempt upon the poor, blind, ignorant Jews, as if they were always to remain in such a state of darkness and infidelity. The thing he had to inform them of is,
that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in; by Israel is meant the Jews, the descendants of Jacob, whose name was Israel. Philo the Jew observes {b}, that this name signifies orasin yeou, "the vision of God"; indeed, Jacob had it given him when he wrestled with the angel, and saw God face to face, though it does not seem to be for that reason; however, blindness had now befallen the Jews, who had been favoured with a divine revelation, with the knowledge of God, his will and worship; and none were more blind than those who were called the servants and messengers of the Lord of hosts, as the Scribes and Pharisees, the priests and princes of the Jewish world. This "blindness" designs their unbelief, the hardness of their hearts, and darkness of their understandings with respect to God himself, whom they knew not in Christ; not as the Father of Christ; nor even the perfections of his nature, particularly his righteousness; which was the reason of their setting up their own righteousness, and of their non-submission to the righteousness of Christ: they were blind as to the Messiah; they knew him not, when he came; they saw no beauty and comeliness in him; could not discern the characters of him in Jesus, though they were so manifest; and rejected him notwithstanding the clear evidence of his ministry and miracles.
They were in the dark about the sense of the prophecies of the Old Testament; a vail was upon their hearts when they read them, so that they understood them not, and could not see their accomplishment in Christ; they were even ignorant of the law, the spiritual nature, true use, and right end and scope of it; and it is no wonder that the Gospel should be hidden from them. This blindness "happened" to them not by chance, but befell them by the decree, and according to the will of God, who hardens whom he pleases; and according to various predictions in the Old Testament, cited in Matthew 13:14; and in righteous judgment, for since they liked not to retain God and his Christ in their knowledge, it was but just in God to give them up to reprobate minds, to judicial blindness, and hardness of heart: but then this blindness only happened to them "in part"; not that it was only in some measure or some degree, for it was total, they were darkness itself, and had no spiritual and evangelic light at all on whom it fell; but that this blindness was not general with respect to persons, there were some few, a seed, a remnant, that were delivered from it, though the far greater part of the nation were involved in it, and continue in it to this day; and will do, "until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in": that is, till the whole number of God's elect among them, be called and brought into the Gospel church state, which in the latter day will be very great; when the earth shall be filled with the knowledge of the Lord, as the waters cover the sea; when the kingdoms of this world shall become the kingdoms of our Lord and his Christ; and the abundance of the sea shall be converted, and the forces of the Gentiles shall come to the church, and multitudes of them shall flock thither, as doves to their windows: and since the blindness of the Jews is not yet removed, it seems plain that the full number of God's chosen ones among the Gentiles is not yet completed in regeneration; for as soon as ever they are all called and brought in, the vail will be taken away from the Jews, and they will be turned unto the Lord
Verse 32. For God hath concluded them all in unbelief,.... Both Jews and Gentiles, particularly God's elect among them: some think the metaphor is taken from the binding up of sheaves in bands; and that Jews and Gentiles are the sheaves, and unbelief the band, in which they are bound together; but the apostle is not speaking of their being together in unbelief, but as separate, first the Gentiles, and now the Jews: rather it seems to be taken from a prison, and Jews and Gentiles are represented as prisoners, and unbelief the prison, in which they are shut up by God: not that God is the author of unbelief, or of any other sin in men; he does not put it into them, or them into that, but finding them in unbelief, concludes them in it, or leaves them in such a state, and does not as yet however deliver out of it, or say to the prisoners, go forth: moreover, to be "concluded in unbelief," is the same as to be "concluded under sin," Gal 3:22; that is, to be thoroughly convinced of it; and to be held and bound down by such a sense of it in the conscience, as to see no way to escape deserved punishment, or to obtain salvation, but by fleeing to the mercy of God in Christ:
that he might have mercy upon all: not upon all the individuals of Jews and Gentiles; for all are not concluded in, or convinced of the sin of unbelief, but only such who are eventually believers, as appears from the parallel text, Gal 3:22 ; and designs all God's elect among the Jews, called "their fulness," Rom 11:12; and all God's elect among the Gentiles, called "the fulness of the Gentiles," Rom 11:25; for whom he has mercy in store, and will bestow it on them; and in order to bring them to a sense of their need of it, and that he may the more illustriously display the riches of it, he leaves them for a while in a state of unbelief, and then by his Spirit thoroughly convinces them of it, and gives them faith to look to, and believe in, the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ, unto eternal life.
BRINGING OUT THE BEAUTY STEADFASTLY
Thank You
Love in Christ ![[Cross]](graemlins/cross.gif)
MAC
Job 33:18 He keepeth back his soul from the pit, and his life from perishing by the sword.
Job 33:28 He will deliver his soul from going into the pit, and his life shall see the light.
PS 19:14 Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O LORD, my strength, and my redeemer.
![[Lighthouse]](graemlins/lighthouse.gif)
Ezekiel 33:7 So thou, O son of man, I have set thee a watchman unto the house of Israel; therefore thou shalt hear the word at my mouth, and warn them from me.
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Romans 9:11-24
Our Eschatology may vary even our Ecclesiology may be disputed among us but our Soteriology most assume a singularity and exclusivity which in biblical term is known as Quote; "The Narrow Way" and Quote!
Posts: 2792 | From: Stockton,Ca | Registered: Jun 2002
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Miguel
Advanced Member
Member # 47
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posted
OK LATER!
drive safe
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Romans 9:11-24
Our Eschatology may vary even our Ecclesiology may be disputed among us but our Soteriology most assume a singularity and exclusivity which in biblical term is known as Quote; "The Narrow Way" and Quote!
Posts: 2792 | From: Stockton,Ca | Registered: Jun 2002
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Noel
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Member # 71
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posted
I've gotta run we are moving to another state but the bride is anyone saved, jew, gentile, anyone! I will get back latter and read the rest of your post.K? I just happen to have a great love for Israel and take these scriptures litterally.
Genesis 12:3 Ps.122:6 Romans 11 & 15:27 Like i said, gotta run but will check back latter!
Blessings and peace
Noel
Posts: 41 | From: KY | Registered: Jun 2002
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Miguel
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Member # 47
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posted
I might sound sarcastic at this time, but that is not the intention.
For some of you expert this might be and old song, but for some us is not, so bear with the conversation.
Thank you
You are saying that this is call replacement theology and that we are the bride, ok and that God needs to come back for his people (right!) Israel. Ok
Now if those that are call the bride of Christ are not is people and the Israel of God is, why and then we the gentile are the bride, bride means ONE beloved. So that means that God have two beloved and when He comes back with His bride to fight with satan and defeating will gather His second bride home and come back to rules 1,000 years and after that both bride will in heaven for ever more with Christ compose of Gentile and Jews?
Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy [is] he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Verse 4. Who are Israelites, Which were their national name, as descended from Jacob, whose name was Israel; and it was accounted a very honorable one; see Phili 3:5; and the very name they bore gave the apostle some concern that they should be cut off; and then he proceeds to enumerate the several distinguishing favours and privileges they had been partakers of:
to whom pertaineth the adoption; not that special adoption, which springs from eternal predestination, is a blessing of the covenant of grace, comes through the redemption of Christ, and is received and enjoyed only by believers in him; for all that were Israelites, were not in this sense the children of God; but national adoption is here meant, by which the whole body of the people, as nation, were the sons of God, his firstborn:
and the glory; either the ark of the covenant, which is so called in Palm 63:2, according to Kimchi; or the clouds in the tabernacle and temple, which were called the glory of the Lord, and were symbols of his presence, the same with the Shekinah; and so Aben Ezra interprets power, the ark, and glory, the Shekinah, Psalm 63:2,
and the covenants; not the two Testaments, Old and New, but the covenant of circumcision, made with Abraham their father, and the covenant at Sinai they entered into with the Lord; some copies, and the Vulgate Latin and Ethiopic versions, read, "the covenant":
and the giving, of the law: hrwt Ntm, a way of speaking the {x} Jews make use of when they take notice of this privilege; for it was peculiarly given to them with great solemnity by God himself, through the disposition of angels into the hands of Moses the mediator, and by him to them; and on account of this, they reckoned themselves more beloved of God than the rest of mankind {y}
and the service of God; or "the service," as in the Greek text. So the Jews {z} are used to call it hdwbe, "the service"; and false worship is called by them hrz hdwbe, "strange service," which is the title of one of their Misnic tracts; and here it signifies the whole worship of God, in the whole compass of it, sacrifices, prayer, praise, &c. daily, weekly, monthly, and yearly:
and the promises; both temporal and spiritual, especially such as related to the Messiah, and which now had their accomplishment.
Verse 6. Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect,.... Or "it is not possible indeed that the word of God should fall"; see 1 Sam 3:10; This the apostle says, partly to relieve his own mind pressed with sorrow, and partly to obviate an objection some might make, or prevent any mistake any might be ready to go into; as though from what he suggested that what God had said concerning the people of the Jews, was made void and without effect: for whether by the "word of God" are meant, the Scriptures in general, the prophecies of the Old Testament, these were now about to have their accomplishment, in the rejection of the Jews, and in the conversion of the Gentiles; or whether by it is designed the Gospel, this, as preached both by Christ and his apostles, had had its effect upon God's chosen ones among that people; it was become the power of God unto salvation, to the Jew first: or rather by it may be intended, God's word of promise to Abraham, that he would be a God to him, and to his seed after him; and that he and they should be heir of the world, of this and of that which is to come; particularly the heavenly inheritance, which he gave to him by promise; this was not made void, or had taken none effect: for this was made only to Abraham and his spiritual seed; and therefore though his carnal seed believed not, and for their unbelief should be cut off, this did not make the faith, or faithfulness of God of none effect:
for they are not all Israel, which are of Israel; that is, they which are the descendants of the patriarch Jacob, whose name was Israel; or who are of the Israelitish nation, of the stock of Israel, belonging to that people; they are not all larvy ta, "the Israel," by way of emphasis, as in
Psalm 25:22, or the "Israel of God," Gal 6:16, the Israel whom Jehovah the Father has chosen for a peculiar people; which Christ has redeemed from all their iniquities; which the Spirit of God calls with an holy calling, by special grace, to special privileges; the seed of Israel who are justified in Christ, whose iniquities are so pardoned and done away, that when they are sought for they shall not be found, and who are saved in the Lord with an everlasting salvation: or in other words, though they are "Israel after the flesh,"
1Cor 10:18, yet not after the Spirit; though they are by nation Israelites, they are not Israelites "indeed," as Nathanael was, John 1:47; they are Jews outwardly, not inwardly; they have not all principles of grace, uprightness, and sincerity in them: now to these spiritual Israelites, or seed of Abraham, were the word of God, the promises of God concerning spiritual and eternal things made, and upon these they had their effect; and therefore it could not be said that the word of God had taken none effect; though the whole body of Israel after the flesh were cut off and rejected. Some copies, and the Vulgate Latin version, read, "who are Israelites"; and the Ethiopic version, "they are not all Israel who came out of Egypt."
I know most of you might say you need to read the bible more you don't know what are you talking about, and you might be right i don't, but one thing i know and is that the word and the perfect will of God is all together a Mystery.
Thank You
BRINGING OUT THE BEAUTY STEADFASTLY
Thank You
Love in Christ
MAC
Job 33:18 He keepeth back his soul from the pit, and his life from perishing by the sword.
Job 33:28 He will deliver his soul from going into the pit, and his life shall see the light.
PS 19:14 Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O LORD, my strength, and my redeemer.
Ezekiel 33:7 So thou, O son of man, I have set thee a watchman unto the house of Israel; therefore thou shalt hear the word at my mouth, and warn them from me.
--------------------
Romans 9:11-24
Our Eschatology may vary even our Ecclesiology may be disputed among us but our Soteriology most assume a singularity and exclusivity which in biblical term is known as Quote; "The Narrow Way" and Quote!
Posts: 2792 | From: Stockton,Ca | Registered: Jun 2002
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helpforhomeschoolers
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posted
Amen Noel:
Good to see you around again!
Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002
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Noel
Advanced Member
Member # 71
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posted
Gentile believers are NOT Israel. Thatis replacement theology. We are the bride of Christ and Physical Israel as promised by God to the Israelites is not based on its rebellion or obedience. He said he would bring them backto the land promised to them and He has done that.
THIS LAND IS ONLY 280 MILES LONG AND 80 MILES WIDE. IN SOME PLACES BECAUSE OF THE ARAB OCCUPATION ITS ONLY 4-9 MILES WIDE.
The arabs aare descendants of Ishmael not Isaac. God promised Abraham he would make Ishmael a great nation and look how big the arab countries are and how rich they are. The other arab countries do not even want Arafat and his terrorist. IF every jew was killed by arabs as they would like to see happen, if they dont have jews to blow up they kill each other. they are not displaced, but full of hate. Want some real facts visit Blessing Israel Visit the thousands of terrorist sites and see how they dress thier children to die for them ISLAM AND TERRORISM = HELL WIDE OPEN
wANT TO KNOW WHAT ITS REALLY ALL ABOUT? VISIT What its Really All About
When they are not killing Jews they are killing each Other-VERY GRAPHIC Arabs Kill Each Other
Maps, History and Lies
\MAPS DONT LIE
~ Shalom ~
Noel
Posts: 41 | From: KY | Registered: Jun 2002
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Miguel
Advanced Member
Member # 47
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posted
No I haven't, I am working on it but I also need to attend my store there is a lot of work at this time for me and I don't want to just throw scriptures at the topic.
Let me express this to you, that those chosen of GOD are been chosen already that is including Israel and the gentiles all together, I don't see CHRIST coming back to save Israel but that HE have already done so.
When HE comes back is one way ticket.
You go head and proceed and I follow your arguments, at the moment I need to catch up with the store and family.
Don't forget that there is room in my heart for you too. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
BRINGING OUT THE BEAUTY STEADFASTLY
Thank You
Love in Christ
MAC
Job 33:18 He keepeth back his soul from the pit, and his life from perishing by the sword.
Job 33:28 He will deliver his soul from going into the pit, and his life shall see the light.
PS 19:14 Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O LORD, my strength, and my redeemer.
Ezekiel 33:7 So thou, O son of man, I have set thee a watchman unto the house of Israel; therefore thou shalt hear the word at my mouth, and warn them from me.
--------------------
Romans 9:11-24
Our Eschatology may vary even our Ecclesiology may be disputed among us but our Soteriology most assume a singularity and exclusivity which in biblical term is known as Quote; "The Narrow Way" and Quote!
Posts: 2792 | From: Stockton,Ca | Registered: Jun 2002
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helpforhomeschoolers
Advanced Member
Member # 15
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posted
Dear Listener:
I missed this post of yours in all this conversation and I wanted to come back to it.
You said:
yes. it was excellently constructed.
it still doesn't confront the issue of the displaced people. those who were ethnically cleansed to create Israel. they were not brought up to believe that God gave the land to the Jews.
all they know is that for many centuries their families have lived there.
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I heart you heart in this for a real hurting people who live daily in a war torn land that you have seen first hand. I am not sure that I can see that the Palestinians were ethnically cleansed, though I am sure there are many who feel this way. I know they were ASKED TO STAY!and offered full citizenshiop rights in the land including the right to vote. The Palestinians were exploited by their leaders and encouraged not to take this. They became displaced peoples at the calling of their own people who did not accpet them in to Jordan and Syria, but instead placed them in refugee camps, beacuse it suited their political agenda which was to push the jews into the sea.
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You Said:
it would be the same as your great great etc grandchildren being forcibly removed from Dakota because a Sioux prophet declared that their God had said they should be given back their original lands.
of course no one can condone the terrorism, or the consequences of rioting. imagine what your neighbours, even you, would do if an international tribune evicted you and returned the land to the Sioux.
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Interesting enough there are some who are battling in court to have just this very thing done!
You Said:
those of us who don't live in disputed territory and aren't subject to the daily pressures of our people, our culture, and our religion, to act in ways we would prefer not to, should take advantage of our freedoms to consider the facts calmly. it's difficult to be a parent in a democratic state with the peer pressure that is exerted on todays kids. they have to walk the minefields of drugs and drink and the other dangers of this age. in countries where people are inflamed by national disputes, the childrens
loyalties are easily stolen by fanatics and criminals.
it's not enough to simply say that God gave the land to one people 3,500 years ago. people go to prison for refusing to remove a fence between two properties in free countries. people go to law for year after year over a disputed foot or two of their garden. imagine how they would be over their country!
we have to remember that people are involved. fathers and mothers, young and old. what balfour did or said over half a century ago doesn't impress a young mother trying to feed and keep her kids safe. her race, creed or color is irrelevant. she should know that we as Christians will support any just aspect of her situation. even when it's almost impossible to do so.
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I understand here what you are saying. We cannot remove the human aspect of the affects of this thing on the daily lives of the people that live it every day. But we must also look honestly at where this began if we are to see who is exploiting whom.
It began in six eighty something AD when the Jews would not follow the false prophet Mohammad. The hatred that came to be written in the Quran declared it the way of Islam or the highway. Oh yes, we could even go so far as to say that this began in the garden because it did. But my point is this. You said in an earlier post that we cannot have compassion or empathy for the Palestinians because of our religious differences. (paraphrased)
I think this is not true. My hearts does break for those mothers, fathers, children. But I cannot blame the Jews. I can only blame the evil that is behind the false prophet, that is behind the religion that has declared a war that cannot be solved untill Christ steps down on the foot of Mt. Olive. The evel one through this false prophet and the religion that followed his teachings has become a political power that exploits its own people.
If there is anything we Christians do not understand it is that we do not view our religion as a political movement and it indeed is. This whole thing that is our life, our day to day life is not just a spiritual journey, for we are also members of a Kingdom... the Kingdom of God and we are at war with a formidable enemy. His name is satan.
The wars and injustice we see in nations, and ethnic groups is only a mirror image of the real war that is being fought in a spiritual realm. Only when you can see this, can you see that Israel is not the enemy of the Palestinian people.
Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002
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Kindgo
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Hey Mac, ![[Kiss]](graemlins/Kiss.gif)
Did you quit on this topic? We are awaiting your
reply... ![[spiny]](graemlins/spiny.gif)
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God bless,
Kindgo
Inside the will of God there is no failure. Outside the will of God there is no success.
Posts: 4320 | From: Sunny Florida | Registered: Jun 2002
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Miguel
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Kindgo I have and I will do so again.
I like this translation better
Romans 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
Romans 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
I will come back to you in the near future concerning Israel and those that are going to be
(Caught up!)
Thank You
Love in Christ
MAC
Job 33:18 He keepeth back his soul from the pit, and his life from perishing by the sword.
Job 33:28 He will deliver his soul from going into the pit, and his life shall see the light.
PS 19:14 Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O LORD, my strength, and my redeemer.
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Romans 9:11-24
Our Eschatology may vary even our Ecclesiology may be disputed among us but our Soteriology most assume a singularity and exclusivity which in biblical term is known as Quote; "The Narrow Way" and Quote!
Posts: 2792 | From: Stockton,Ca | Registered: Jun 2002
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Kindgo
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I agree that there is a remnant of Jews in every generation that will be saved through the work of the Holy Spirit.
However, I think there will come a time at the end of the Tribulation or after the Tribulation when all the Jews that God leaves alive will believe.
It won't be a different belief - it will still be a belief in Jesus as the Messiah who takes away the sins of the world, but I am talking mass conversion here.
One of the key verses is from Romans. It means more if you read some of what's around it, though, so here is all of Romans 11. (Most of the Bible passages are from the NASB to make them a little easier to read. However, my personal view is that the King James is often the most accurate translation)
It would be even more helpful to you if you would read chapters 9 & 10, also. I've bolded a few things to pay particular attention to.
Rom 11:1 I say then, God has not rejected His people, has He? May it never be! For I too am an Israelite , a descendant of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
Rom 11:2 God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel ?
Rom 11:3 "Lord, THEY HAVE KILLED YOUR PROPHETS, THEY HAVE TORN DOWN YOUR ALTARS, AND I ALONE AM LEFT , AND THEY ARE SEEKING MY LIFE."
Rom 11:4 But what is the divine response to him? "I HAVE KEPT for Myself SEVEN THOUSAND MEN WHO HAVE NOT BOWED THE KNEE TO BAAL."
Rom 11:5 In the same way then, there has also come to be at the present time a remnant according to God's gracious choice.
Rom 11:6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.
Rom 11:7 What then ? What Israel is seeking, it has not obtained, but those who were chosen obtained it, and the rest were hardened;
Rom 11:8 just as it is written, "GOD GAVE THEM A SPIRIT OF STUPOR, EYES TO SEE NOT AND EARS TO HEAR NOT, DOWN TO THIS VERY DAY."
Rom 11:9 And David says, "LET THEIR TABLE BECOME A SNARE AND A TRAP, AND A STUMBLING BLOCK AND A RETRIBUTION TO THEM.
Rom 11:10 "LET THEIR EYES BE DARKENED TO SEE NOT, AND BEND THEIR BACKS FOREVER ."
Rom 11:11 I say then, they did not stumble so as to fall, did they? May it never be! But by their transgression salvation has come to the Gentiles, to make them jealous.
Rom 11:12 Now if their transgression is riches for the world and their failure is riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their fulfillment be!
Rom 11:13 But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle of Gentiles, I magnify my ministry,
Rom 11:14 if somehow I might move to jealousy my fellow countrymen and save some of them.
Rom 11:15 For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead ?
Rom 11:16 If the first piece of dough is holy, the lump is also; and if the root is holy, the branches are too.
Rom 11:17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree,
Rom 11:18 do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you.
Rom 11:19 You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in."
Rom 11:20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited , but fear;
Rom 11:21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.
Rom 11:22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God's kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.
Rom 11:23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.
Rom 11:24 For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these who are the natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree ?
Rom 11:25 For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery --so that you will not be wise in your own estimation --that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in;
Rom 11:26 and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written, "THE DELIVERER WILL COME FROM ZION, HE WILL REMOVE UNGODLINESS FROM JACOB."
Rom 11:27 "THIS IS MY COVENANT WITH THEM, WHEN I TAKE AWAY THEIR SINS."
Rom 11:28 From the standpoint of the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God's choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers;
Rom 11:29 for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
Rom 11:30 For just as you once were disobedient to God, but now have been shown mercy because of their disobedience,
Rom 11:31 so these also now have been disobedient, that because of the mercy shown to you they also may now be shown mercy.
Rom 11:32 For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all.
Rom 11:33 Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God ! How unsearchable are His judgments and unfathomable His ways !
Rom 11:34 For WHO HAS KNOWN THE MIND OF THE LORD, OR WHO BECAME HIS COUNSELOR ?
Rom 11:35 Or WHO HAS FIRST GIVEN TO HIM THAT IT MIGHT BE PAID BACK TO HIM AGAIN ?
Rom 11:36 For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things. To Him be the glory forever. Amen.
The verses that there is the most controversy over are 25-26:
For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery --so that you will not be wise in your own estimation --that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in; and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written, "THE DELIVERER WILL COME FROM ZION, HE WILL REMOVE UNGODLINESS FROM JACOB."
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God bless,
Kindgo
Inside the will of God there is no failure. Outside the will of God there is no success.
Posts: 4320 | From: Sunny Florida | Registered: Jun 2002
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Kindgo
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Hey Mac,
Of all the various aspects of amillennialism, the conversion of the Jews (or lack thereof) is the one that gets me the most.
The Bible says there will be a conversion of the Jews. A good portion of the Old Testament is devoted to that subject.
The entire book of Hosea is about it. And, if that's not clear enough, Paul uses Romans 9, 10 & 11 to really drive the point home. To proclaim the exact opposite seems very odd to me. ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
What I strongly recommend if you haven't done it yet, is to just get out your Bible and read it. Yes, the whole thing - cover to cover. With no pastors or commentaries or ANYONE to tell you what it means except the Holy Spirit.
Pray before you begin for understanding. Pray as you read. When you come to a section you don't understand, pray diligently for God to explain it to you. Three chapters a day will get you through in less than a year. Some people have read it in six weeks. You will get discouraged and want to stop. Do you think Satan actually wants you to read the whole thing? Ask God to make him go away and leave you alone. And KEEP READING.
Ignore the Bible version controversies on your first run through and just pick one that you will actually read.
Then, you decide. Is God done with the Jews?
![[Prayer]](graemlins/prayer.gif)
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God bless,
Kindgo
Inside the will of God there is no failure. Outside the will of God there is no success.
Posts: 4320 | From: Sunny Florida | Registered: Jun 2002
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Miguel
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Amillennialism - denial of the coming 1000 year kingdom
This view is good for those who like to interpret the Bible by spiritualizing all the literal and making them spiritual.
(Not all but yes I see spiritual meaning.)
This view is really anti-Israel and believes that they have lost their God given promises to Abraham, Issac, King David etc. They teach the church is Israel and the literal nation is nothing significant at all.
(I am not anti but that Israel is part of the elect that God gave Jesus in john and in Romans) before the foundations in heavenly cousel
They read Revelation chapter 20 which clearly states there will be a 1000 year kingdom and spiritualize the literal making them oblivious to the obvious. They say there is no 1000 year kingdom because 1000 years doesn't really mean 1000 years. No, instead it means something spiritual that really only the amillennialist can grasp.
(I hold that the 1000 years is spiritual but I don't agree that the amillennialist are the only one that can grasp it)
It is really a foolish belief and requires a person to take literal portions of the Bible and spiritualize them away into some kind of secret meaning that only other amillennialists can understand.
(I don't agree with this statement but yes to see both side of the coin spiritual and literal)
(This paragraph is not good; (secret meaning that only other amillennialists can understand)
I have very little respect for this view because of its attemp to rob the literal nation of Israel of all her God given promises that are being fulfilled in the world today RIGHT IN FRONT OF EVERYONE'S EYES. (Everyone but the amillennialist who looks at the world by spiritualizing literal events)
(I don't agree with this ether) I see Israel part of the great plan of salvation not making them higher standard than the rest of the believers.
* This view denies the imminent coming of the Lord Jesus Christ. There will be no suprise or
unknown time when the rapture will occur.
(I don't agree with this ether) we will be caught up in an hour that no man knows
The followers of this view are difficult to talk to as they have blinded themselves to the simplicity of the Bible by spiritualizing the literal in Scriptures.
(I don't agree in this one) there is spiritual and literal that come in place in the bible
First yes I see a spiritual out come for Israel not literal, but not to deny that they are part of what I believed to be a spiritual Israel (all those in Christ)
Thank You
Love in Christ
MAC
Job 33:18 He keepeth back his soul from the pit, and his life from perishing by the sword.
Job 33:28 He will deliver his soul from going into the pit, and his life shall see the light.
PS 19:14 Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O LORD, my strength, and my redeemer.
Ezekiel 33:7 So thou, O son of man, I have set thee a watchman unto the house of Israel; therefore thou shalt hear the word at my mouth, and warn them from me.
Thank you all for your comments
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Romans 9:11-24
Our Eschatology may vary even our Ecclesiology may be disputed among us but our Soteriology most assume a singularity and exclusivity which in biblical term is known as Quote; "The Narrow Way" and Quote!
Posts: 2792 | From: Stockton,Ca | Registered: Jun 2002
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helpforhomeschoolers
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Great information here Kindgo and Art. There is so much wonderful richness to be seen in the Word if we can get hold of this. The mystery that is the relationship of Christ to his bride!
![[Big Clap]](graemlins/clap2.gif) Hosanna! Behold he is coming quickly!!!
Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002
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Kindgo
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You can go as deep into the Bible as you want to. Pre-trib is sound doctrine, and I believe it is found all over the Biblical text if you know where to look...
The secret of the LORD is with those who fear Him, and unto them will He reveal his covenant. Psalm 25:14
It is the glory of God to conceal a matter, But the glory of kings is to search out a matter. Proverbs 25:2
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God bless,
Kindgo
Inside the will of God there is no failure. Outside the will of God there is no success.
Posts: 4320 | From: Sunny Florida | Registered: Jun 2002
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Kindgo
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Hey Mac,
Israel / Church Distinction: The 4th Foundation
by Thomas Ice
God has two peoples-Israel and the church.
What do we mean by this distinction and how does it impact pretribulationism?
The Distinction Between Israel and the Church
"The New Testament consistently differentiates between Israel and the church."
Belief that God's single plan for history includes the two peoples of Israel and the church does not imply that there are thus different ways of salvation.
When it comes to the issue of salvation there is only one way, since all peoples down through history descend from a single source-Adam.
Christ's saving work is the only way of salvation for anyone, whether they are a member of Israel or the church.
Israel
"the term Israel is viewed theologically as referring to all descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, also known as Jews, the Jewish people, Israelites, Hebrews, etc."
four reasons for Israel's election: 1) they were "chosen on the basis of God's love . . . to be 'a kingdom of priests and a holy nation' (Ex. 19:6) . . . to represent the Gentile nations before God." 2) "God chose Israel to be the recipient of His revelation and to record it (Deut. 4:5-8; 6:6-9; Rom. 3:1-2)." 3)
Israel "was to propagate the doctrine of the One God (Deut. 6:4)." 4) Israel "was to produce the Messiah (Rom. 9:5; Heb. 2:16-17; 7:13-14) (115)."
No biblically oriented christian would deny these purposes relating to Israel.
The differences begins to emerge when we consider Israel in relation to the church.
"Some theologians insist,that at some point the church receives the promises given to Israel and thus become the 'New Israel' (known as replacement theology).
Some believe the terms church and Israel are used virtually 'interchangeably,' most citing Galatians 6:16 and some Romans 9:6.
However, those commonly known as dispensationalists interpret the Bible literally and thus do not confuse the terms Israel and the church, since there is no basis in the text of any biblical passage for supporting such an approach.
Having noted important aspects of the biblical use of Israel, I will now examine the nature of the church.
The Church
Six reasons are given from the Bible supporting the notion that the church is a distinct work in God's household from His people Israel.
1) "The first evidence is the fact that the church was born at Pentecost, whereas Israel had existed for many centuries".
This is supported by "the use of the future tense in Matthew 16:18 shows that it did not exist in gospel history".
Since the church born at Pentecost is called the "Body of Christ" (Col. 1:18), and entrance into the body is through "Spirit baptism" (1 Cor. 12:13), in which Jew and Gentile are united through the church.
It is evident that the church began on the Day of Pentecost since Acts 1:5 views Spirit baptism as future, while Acts 10 links it to the past, specifically to Pentecost.
2)The second evidence is that certain events in the ministry of the Messiah were essential to the establishment of the church-the church does not come into being until certain events have taken place.
These events include the resurrection and ascension of Jesus to become head of the church (Eph. 1:20-23).
The church, with believers as the body and Christ as the head, did not exist until after Christ ascended to become its head. And it could not become a functioning entity until after the Holy Spirit provided the necessary spiritual gifts (Eph. 4:7-11).
3) The third evidence is the mystery character of the church. A mystery in the Bible is a hidden truth not revealed until the New Testament (Eph. 3:3-5, 9; Col. 1:26-27).
Four defining characteristics of the church [that] are described as a mystery.
(1) The body concept of Jewish and Gentile believers united into one body is designated as a mystery in Ephesians 3:1-12.
(2) The doctrine of Christ indwelling every believer, the Christ-in-you concept, is called a mystery in Colossians 1:24-27 (cf. Col. 2:10-19; 3:4).
(3) The church as the Bride of Christ is called a mystery in Ephesians 5:22-32.
(4) The Rapture is called a mystery in 1 Corinthians 15:50-58.
These four mysteries describe qualities that distinguish the church from Israel" (117-18).
(4)The fourth evidence that the church is distinct from Israel is the unique relationship between Jews and the Gentiles, called one new man in Ephesians 2:15.
During the current church age God is saving a remnant from the two previous entities (Israel and Gentiles) and combining them into a third new object-the church.
This unity of Jews and Gentiles into one new man covers only the church age, from Pentecost until the rapture, after which time God will restore Israel and complete her destiny (Acts 15:14-18).
1 Corinthians 10:32 reflects just such a division when it says,
"Give no offense either to Jews or to Greeks or to the church of God."
5)The fifth evidence for the distinction between Israel and the church is found in Galatians 6:16.
"It appears logical to view 'the Israel of God' (Gal. 6:16) as believing Jews in contrast to unbelieving Jews called 'Israel after the flesh' (1 Cor. 10:18)
.2 This passage does not support the false claim of replacement theologians who claim that Israel is supplanted by the Church.
Instead, the Bible teaches that a remnant of Israel is combined with elect Gentiles during this age to make up a whole new entity the New Testament calls the church (Eph. 2).
Replacement theology tries to teach that because Gentiles believers are described as the "seed of Abraham" (Gal. 3:29) that this is equivalent to saying that they are Israel.
This is clearly not the case. Paul's description of Gentile believers in Galatians 3:29 simply means that they participate in the spiritual (i.e., salvation) blessings that come through Israel (Rom. 15:27; 1 Cor. 9:11, 14).
Those who are the spiritual seed are partakers of Jewish spiritual blessings but are never said to become partakers of the physical, material, or national promises.
Therefore, Israel's national promises are left in tact awaiting a yet future fulfillment.
6) In the book of Acts, both Israel and the church exist simultaneously. The term Israel is used twenty time and ekklesia (church) nineteen times, yet the two groups are always kept distinct.
3 Thus, the replacement theologian has no actual biblical basis upon which he bases his theological claim that Israel and the church have become one.
The Significance of the Distinction
If Israel and the church are not distinguished then there is no basis for seeing a future for Israel or for the church, as a new and unique people of God.
If Israel and the church are merged into a single program, then the Old Testament promises for Israel will never be fulfilled and are usually seen by replacement theologians as spiritually fulfilled by the church.
The merging of Israel's destiny into the church not only makes into one what the Scriptures understand as two, it removes a need for future restoration of God's original elect people in order to fulfill literally His promise that they will one day be the head and not the tail (Deut. 28:13).
The more that the believer sees a distinct plan for Israel and a distinct plan for the church, the more they realize that when the New Testament speaks to the church it is describing a separate destiny and hope for her.
The church becomes more distinct in the plan of God. Israel's future includes the seven-year tribulation and then shortly before Christ's return to Jerusalem she will be converted to Jesus as her Messiah as the veil is removed and then she looks upon the one Who was pierced and is converted.
On the other hand, the distinct hope (the rapture before the 70th week of Daniel) for the church is Christ's any-moment return.
Thus, a distinction between Israel and the church, as taught in the Bible, provides a basis of support for the pre-trib rapture. Those who merge the two programs cannot logically support the biblical arguments for the pre-trib position.
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God bless,
Kindgo
Inside the will of God there is no failure. Outside the will of God there is no success.
Posts: 4320 | From: Sunny Florida | Registered: Jun 2002
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Miguel
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If I am correct what you are telling me is that GOD will come back, HE will establish HIS kingdom in Jerusalem and the Jews will be HIS chosen people and we will be partaker of the covenant that HE have done thru the Jewess people!
Is that what you are indicating.
Thank You
Love in Christ
MAC
Job 33:18 He keepeth back his soul from the pit, and his life from perishing by the sword.
Job 33:28 He will deliver his soul from going into the pit, and his life shall see the light.
PS 19:14 Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O LORD, my strength, and my redeemer.
--------------------
Romans 9:11-24
Our Eschatology may vary even our Ecclesiology may be disputed among us but our Soteriology most assume a singularity and exclusivity which in biblical term is known as Quote; "The Narrow Way" and Quote!
Posts: 2792 | From: Stockton,Ca | Registered: Jun 2002
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helpforhomeschoolers
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have questions;
I will approach this very carefully
Mac's Question:
Don’t we are call the Sons Of God, the ones He came to save witch were lost?
Answer:
Well not if you were a Cannanite woman (a Dog and a Gentile)according to Jesus: Matthew 15:22 And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou Son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil.
23 But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us.
24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Jesus was sent to the Jews to tell them the Messiah had come; few accepted Him.
Paul was sent to the Gentiles to preach Christ crucified, buried and risen, that we through faith and God's grace might be grafted into the family of God.
Jesus Died and Rose, and now intercesses for any Jew or gentile who would by faith believe on the ability of His divine blood to be shed as sacrifice in propitiation for their sin and the power of His reserection over death, the penalty of sin. ( Which is of course only possible through God's mercy and grace)
Mac's Question:
Dint Paul told us that we are all one in Christ, those that are His?
Answer:
Yes, paul said this Galatians 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
But to whom and why? The Galations who were plagued by Judaizers- Jews who tried to put Christians Under the Law. We are not under the law. But the unbelieving Jews are.
MAC's Question:
Wasn't our bloodline come from the first Adam?
Answer:
Yes, but as Jesus explained, bloodline was never the issue. His mother and brothers and sisters, were those who did the will of His Father.
Abraham's seed through Isaac not Ishmael (Ishmael was not the son of promise, but the son of unblief and disobedience) was Chosen because they sought to do the will of the Father and thus became God's covenant people. As could any gentile stranger who joined them and followed God's commandments and statutes.
Mac's Question:
If there is no respect of persons in Gods Law, why the division!
Answer:
God is no respector of persons in His Law; Any stranger who chose to follow the Law given to the Isrealites was accepted. Let us not forget that those who did by faith in God's grace follow the Law and earnestly kept God's statutes were counted righteous before God.
Sometimes I think we error when we say the Law could save no one, God judged the heart that through faith in Him followed His statues. He gave His word on this, and surely people like David who was a serious sinner, was still counted as righteous before God for His faith!
God is no respector of persons in His Grace: Any who believe on Christ can partake of His grace.
The division came by those who did not follow, and by those who do not and will not believe until He comes again in Glory.
Mac's question:
When Christ comes would He have a special deal with Israel? And then with the Gentiles and Palestine's!
Yes He will! He will have a bride and queen who will rule with Him. He will have loyal subjects of his kingdom.
And He will destroy the wicked. Who refused Him as Groom and As King.
MAC's Question:
Does the Plan of Salvation is compose in three parts?
Answer:
The just will be resurrected to eternal life and the wicked to eternal damnation.
All the just will have eternal life, but we will not all have the same postions in that eternal life in the eternal kingdom under the eternal king.
Matthew 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
Matthew 11:11 Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.
MAC's Question:
Who in reality is the Israel of God? Aren’t we the believers!
Answer:
NO: You cannot take this scripture out of context! Galatians 6:16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.
Paul is saying peace an mercy on those Jews who bother us about circumcision.
Israel Of God is Israelites; The 12 tribes.
MAC"S Question:
Isn't this wonderful name Israel was given to Jacob AFTER God change his heart?
Answer:
Genesis 32:28 And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed.
Israel: Jacob - the father of the 12 tribes, 1 nation, divided nation (10 tribes) of the northern Kingdom
Israelite - The covenant nation of God taken out ouf egypt by moses, married to God on Mt. Sinai; divided under Ephraim, reunited like the two sticks of Ezekiel 37 in the final kingdom, blessed and eternal subjects under the King of Kings of the line of David, who is Christ.
NOT THE BRIDE: NOT THE QUEEN: SUBJECTS OF THEIR LONG AWAITED KING THE MESSIAH.
MAC's QUestion:
Isn't Israel means overcomes and prevails?
Answer:
03478 larsy Yisra’el yis-raw-ale’
from 08280 and 0410, Greek 2474 Israhl; ; n pr m
AV-Israel 2489, Israelites 16; 2505
Israel =" God prevails"
1) the second name for Jacob given to him by God after his wrestling with the angel at Peniel
2) the name of the descendants and the nation of the descendants of Jacob
2a) the name of the nation until the death of Solomon and the split
2b) the name used and given to the northern kingdom consisting of the 10 tribes under Jeroboam; the southern kingdom was known as Judah
2c) the name of the nation after the return from exile
Romans 8:37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002
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Miguel
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Are you telling me that the promises and the new covenant are made to the Jews only!
Wow; all this it is very interesting. In one hand you guys view all this under one nation and in the other hand I see the new covenant to those that GOD have made his people (whether Jews or gentiles).
Let me asked of you; what special is between a Jew and a Gentile. (None) we all are under his judgment.
In the Old Testament GOD chose Israel to be a tool for HIS righteous law for the nations around, HE could of chose any nation if HE wishes to.
In the New Testament Christ came with a New Testament (for those HE made HIS people) HE no longer need a particular nation to declare HIS name but in HIS people HE have done so.
And to be more precisely, what race was Adam? Was He a Jew or a Gentile!
Hey art very good scriptures.
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Romans 9:11-24
Our Eschatology may vary even our Ecclesiology may be disputed among us but our Soteriology most assume a singularity and exclusivity which in biblical term is known as Quote; "The Narrow Way" and Quote!
Posts: 2792 | From: Stockton,Ca | Registered: Jun 2002
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Kindgo
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Hey, heres another one for ya!
The devil hates the Jewish people with a passion.
The Jews are the ones that gave mankind the Bible and the Savior Jesus Christ.
It should come as no surprise that nations who are demonically controlled would share in the devil's hatred of Israel.
I've listed a number of popular myths about Israel, and I've also provided facts to counter those lies.
MYTH:
"The land of Israel is really the land of Palestine."
FACT:
The term "Palestine" is believed to be derived from the Philistines, an Aegean people who, in the 12th Century B.C., settled along the Mediterranean coastal plain of what is now Israel and the Gaza Strip.
In the second century A.D., after crushing the last Jewish revolt, the Romans first applied the name Palaestina to Judea (the southern portion of what is now called the West Bank) in an attempt to minimize Jewish identification with the land of Israel.
The Arabic word "Filastin" is derived from this Latin name.3 There is no language known as Palestinian. There is no distinct Palestinian culture.
There has never been a land known as Palestine governed by Palestinians. Palestinians are Arabs, indistinguishable from Jordanians (another recent invention), Syrians, Lebanese, Iraqis, etc.
MYTH:
"The Jews have no historic claim to Israel."
FACT:
There is only one people who have continuously lived in Israel for the past 3,700 years - the Jews.
Jerusalem, in particular, has had a Jewish majority since the 1840s, 40 years prior to the beginnings of Zionism.
Seventy-five percent of the land in east Jerusalem, which the press calls "historically Arab east Jerusalem," has been owned by Jews since 1947.
The nations that inhabited the land prior to the Jews are no longer in existence, for they have been absorbed into various other peoples throughout the millennia. The Arabs of Israel only came to the land in 632 with the Muslim invasion
MYTH:
"The creation of the state of Israel in 1948 changed political and border arrangements between independent states that had existed for centuries."
FACT:
The boundaries of most Middle East countries were arbitrarily fixed by the Western powers after Turkey was defeated in World War I and the French and British mandates were set up.
The areas allotted to Israel under the UN partition plan had all been under the control of the Ottomans, who had ruled Palestine from 1517 until 1917.
When Turkey was defeated in World War I, the French took over the area now known as Lebanon and Syria.
The British assumed control of Palestine and Iraq. In 1926, the borders were redrawn and Lebanon was separated from Syria.
Britain installed the Emir Faisal, who had been deposed by the French in Syria, as ruler of the new kingdom of Iraq. In 1922, the British created the emirate of Transjordan, which incorporated all of Palestine east of the Jordan River.
This was done so that the Emir Abdullah, whose family had been defeated in tribal warfare in the Arabian peninsula, would have a Kingdom to rule.
None of the countries that border Israel became independent until this century. Many other Arab nations became independent after Israel.
MYTH:
"Israel violates the human rights of the Palestinian Arabs."
FACT:
The FACTs are different. Israel granted full citizenship to all of the Palestinian Arabs who fell within its borders after the War of Independence.
Arabic is an official language in Israel. Israel remains to this day one of the few countries in the Middle East where Arabs can legitimately vote and the only one where women can vote.
MYTH:
"The West Bank is part of Jordan."
FACT:
The West Bank was never legally part of Jordan. Under the UN's 1947 partition plan - which the Jews accepted and the Arabs rejected - it was to have been part of an independent Arab state in western Palestine.
But the Jordanian army invaded and occupied it during the 1948 war. In 1950, Jordan annexed the West Bank. Only two governments - Great Britain and Pakistan - formally recognized the Jordanian takeover.
The rest of the world, including the United States, never did. During the 1950-1967 period of its occupation, Jordan permitted terrorists to launch raids into Israel. Amman lost the West Bank after the Jordanian army entered the 1967 war.
MYTH:
"Jerusalem is Islam's third most holy city."
FACT:
Muslims try to connect Jerusalem to Islam by using a vague passage in the Koran, the seventeenth Sura, entitled "The Night Journey." It relates that in a dream or a vision Mohammed was carried by night "from the sacred temple to the temple that is most remote, whose precinct we have blessed, that we might show him our signs. ..." In the seventh century, some Muslims identified the two temples mentioned in this verse as being in Mecca and Jerusalem.
And that's as close as Islam's connection with Jerusalem gets -- myth, fantasy, wishful thinking. Meanwhile, Jews can trace their roots in Jerusalem back to the days of Abraham.
MYTH:
"The Temple Mount has always been a Muslim holy place and Judaism has no connection to the site."
FACT:
The area of Solomon's Stables is believed to date as far back as the construction of Solomon's Temple.
According to Josephus, it was in existence and was used as a place of refuge by the Jews at the time of the conquest of Jerusalem by Titus in the year 70 A.D. More authoritatively, the Koran - the holy book of Islam - describes Solomon's construction of the First Temple (34:13) and recounts the destruction of the First and Second Temples (17:7).
The Jewish connection to the Temple Mount dates back more than 3,000 years and is rooted in tradition and history. When Abraham bound his son Isaac upon an altar as a sacrifice to God, he did so atop Mount Moriah, today's Temple Mount.
MYTH:
"Under Israeli rule, religious freedom has been curbed in Jerusalem."
FACT:
After the 1967 war, Israel abolished all the discriminatory laws promulgated by Jordan and adopted its own tough standard for safeguarding access to religious shrines.
"Whoever does anything that is likely to violate the freedom of access of the members of the various religions to the places sacred to them," Israeli law stipulates, is "liable to imprisonment for a term of five years." Israel also entrusted administration of the holy places to their respective religious authorities. Thus, for example, the Muslim Waqf has responsibility for the mosques on the Temple Mount.
MYTH:
"The Arab states have had to keep pace with an Israeli-led arms race."
FACT:
In most cases, the reverse was true. Egypt received the Soviet IL-28 bomber in 1955. It was not until 1958 that France provided Israel with a squadron of comparable Sud Vautour twin-jet tactical bombers.
In 1957, Egypt obtained MiG-17 fighter planes. Israel received the comparable Super Mystere in 1959. Egypt had submarines in 1957, Israel in 1959.
After the Egyptians obtained the MiG-21, the Israelis ordered the Dassault Mirage III supersonic interceptor and fighter-bomber. Egypt received ground-to-air missiles - the SA-2 - two years before Israel obtained HAWK missiles from the United States. Later, Washington reluctantly agreed to sell Israel Patton tanks.
MYTH:
"Israel's destruction of Iraqi nuclear facilities was an unjust act."
FACT:
Back in June 1981 after the Israelis bombed the plant at Osirak the U.N. Security Council unanimously condemned Isreal.
Washington ostentatiously held up its delivery of armaments to Israel. A decade later, however, the strike looks awfully good.
Had Saddam Hussein been armed with nuclear weapons during the war with Iran, much of Tehran would by now be obliterated and large sections of Iran annexed to Iraq.
More: Iraqi forces might have rolled straight from Kuwait into Saudi Arabia-long before American forces could have arrived. Today, Saddam could already control five of the oil-rich countries and thereby over half the world's oil reserves. Economic disaster would be one result; and American troops would have no good place to land.
MYTH:
"Israel has been an expansionist state since its creation."
FACT:
Israel's boundaries were determined by the United Nations when it adopted the partition resolution in 1947.
In a series of defensive wars, Israel captured additional territory. On numerous occasions, Israel has withdrawn from these areas.
As part of the 1974 disengagement agreement, Israel returned territories captured in the 1967 and 1973 wars to Syria.
Under the terms of the 1979 Israeli-Egyptian peace treaty, Israel withdrew from the Sinai peninsula for the third time. It had already withdrawn from large parts of the desert area it captured in its War of Independence.
After capturing the entire Sinai in the 1956 Suez conflict, Israel relinquished the peninsula to Egypt a year later. In September 1983, Israel withdrew from large areas of Lebanon to positions south of the Awali River.
In 1985, it completed its withdrawal from Lebanon, except for a narrow security zone just north of the Israeli border. That too was abandoned, unilaterally, in 2000.
After signing peace agreements with the Palestinians, and a treaty with Jordan, Israel agreed to withdraw from most of the territory in the West Bank captured from Jordan in 1967. A small area was returned to Jordan, the rest was ceded to the Palestinian Authority.
The agreement with the Palestinians also involved Israel's withdrawal in 1994 from most of the Gaza Strip, which had been captured from Egypt in 1973.
MYTH:
"Israel is the aggressor in the current conflict."
FACTS:
One: The Palestinians are the aggressor; they started the conflict, and they purposely drive it forward with fresh killing on almost a daily basis.
Two: The Palestinians regard this second intifada not as a sporadically violent protest movement but as a war, with the clear strategic aim of forcing a scared and emotionally exhausted Israel to surrender on terms that would threaten Israel's viability.
Three: As a tactic in this strategy, the Palestinians will not fight Israeli forces directly but instead have concentrated their efforts on murdering Israeli civilians. The greater the number, the more pathetically vulnerable the victims -- disco-goers, women and children in a pizza restaurant -- the better.
Four: Israel has acted defensively in this conflict; and while Israeli forces accidentally killed Palestinian civilians, their planned lethal attacks have all been aimed only at Palestinian military and terror-group leaders.
Read your Bibles! Ask God's Holy spirit to show you the truth, for you are going in the wrong direction on this doctrine...I am praying for you.
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God bless,
Kindgo
Inside the will of God there is no failure. Outside the will of God there is no success.
Posts: 4320 | From: Sunny Florida | Registered: Jun 2002
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An absolute and hearty AMEN to that fine post.
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Kindgo
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Did the church replace the Jews as God's chosen?
Replacement Theology (RT) is the belief that since the Jews didn't accept Jesus as the Messiah, God has cut them off and 'replaced' them with the church as his new chosen people.
This theology assumes that when Israel is mentioned in scripture in a positive light, it refers to spiritual Israel (the church) and when it is referred to in a negative light, it refers to national Israel (the Jews).
RT teaches that the scriptures must be read spiritually, and absolutely not taken literally, since to do so would force one to conclude that:
Israel has distinct origins, purposes and destiny compared to the church. Prophesy of the Old Testaments must also be 'spun' to make RT make any sense at all.
This theology was the basis for the holocaust and is held by anti-semitical white supremacist Christian Identity groups such as the Aryan Nations, the KKK, British Israelists and the Shepherd's Chapel.
This theology became moot in 1948 when Israel became a nation again. As the bible predicted, Israel became a literal nation, so there is no need to spiritualize those passages into another meaning any longer.
The Church cannot be Israel.
Israel is an ethnic, political, and religious entity where the Church is not.
Israel is made up of the physical descendant's of Abraham; the Church is made up of all believers in Christ, regardless of their ethnic makeup.
Romans 9-11 is one of the passages that demonstrates that God has two distinct peoples, the Church and Israel.
The the gifts and calling of God are without repentance, i.e., he won't change either his purpose for Israel (a kingdom on earth where the Davidic king will rule sovereignly over a submissive and worshipping people) or for the Church (the body of Christ and his bride who will rule along with the King).
The covenants and promises made to Israel must be fulfilled to Israel .
Israel cannot be replaced by the Church or else the covenants and promises have no meaning!
Thus, there is no replacement of Israel with the church, only a setting aside till the fulness of the Gentiles comes in (Rom 11). There is a certain amount of inscrutability to God's ways (Rom. 11:33-36) -- we must accept Scripture for what it says.
There is only one plan of God that involves two distinct groups (the Church and Israel) with two distinct origins, purposes, and destinies. It was God's plan from the beginning.
The Lord chose Israel to be his chosen people.
While the book of Ruth demonstrates that the gentile nations have always had choice of accepting the Lord, it wasn't until the Great Commission that the commandment to take His message to them was given.
This is something that the church of the 21st century needs to keep in mind.
The Lord's Word and the Lord's promises are eternal.
Genesis 12:3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.
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God bless,
Kindgo
Inside the will of God there is no failure. Outside the will of God there is no success.
Posts: 4320 | From: Sunny Florida | Registered: Jun 2002
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Miguel
11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
11:2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew.
11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
11:27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
11:28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.
11:29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
11:30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
11:31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
11:33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
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listener
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Job 19:14 Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O LORD, my strength, and my redeemer.
Amen. i borrow your quotation with thanks.
being strong enough to try this walk is different to hardening our hearts to those who don't.
i am merely trying to discover if i am walking in the right direction.
God Bless Mac.
God Bless you all.
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Miguel
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I have questions;
I will approach this very carefully
Don’t we are call the Sons Of God, the ones He came to save witch were lost?
Dint Paul told us that we are all one in Christ, those that are His?
Wasn't our bloodline come from the first Adam?
If there is no respect of persons in Gods Law, why the division!
When Christ comes would He have a special deal with Israel? And then with the Gentiles and Palestine's!
Does the Plan of Salvation is compose in three parts?
Who in reality is the Israel of God? Aren’t we the believers!
Isn't this wonderful name Israel was given to Jacob AFTER God change his heart?
Isn't Israel means overcomes and prevails?
Romans 8:37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
Thank You
Love in Christ
MAC
Job 33:18 He keepeth back his soul from the pit, and his life from perishing by the sword.
Job 33:28 He will deliver his soul from going into the pit, and his life shall see the light.
PS 19:14 Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O LORD, my strength, and my redeemer.
Ezekiel 33:7 So thou, O son of man, I have set thee a watchman unto the house of Israel; therefore thou shalt hear the word at my mouth, and warn them from me. ![[tears]](graemlins/cry2.gif)
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Romans 9:11-24
Our Eschatology may vary even our Ecclesiology may be disputed among us but our Soteriology most assume a singularity and exclusivity which in biblical term is known as Quote; "The Narrow Way" and Quote!
Posts: 2792 | From: Stockton,Ca | Registered: Jun 2002
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listener
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yes. it was excellently constructed.
it still doesn't confront the issue of the displaced people. those who were ethnically cleansed to create Israel. they were not brought up to believe that God gave the land to the Jews.
all they know is that for many centuries their families have lived there.
it would be the same as your great great etc grandchildren being forcibly removed from Dakota because a Sioux prophet declared that their God had said they should be given back their original lands.
of course no one can condone the terrorism, or the consequences of rioting. imagine what your neighbours, even you, would do if an international tribune evicted you and returned the land to the Sioux.
those of us who don't live in disputed territory and aren't subject to the daily pressures of our people, our culture, and our religion, to act in ways we would prefer not to, should take advantage of our freedoms to consider the facts calmly. it's difficult to be a parent in a democratic state with the peer pressure that is exerted on todays kids. they have to walk the minefields of drugs and drink and the other dangers of this age. in countries where people are inflamed by national disputes, the childrens
loyalties are easily stolen by fanatics and criminals.
it's not enough to simply say that God gave the land to one people 3,500 years ago. people go to prison for refusing to remove a fence between two properties in free countries. people go to law for year after year over a disputed foot or two of their garden. imagine how they would be over their country!
we have to remember that people are involved. fathers and mothers, young and old. what balfour did or said over half a century ago doesn't impress a young mother trying to feed and keep her kids safe. her race, creed or color is irrelevant. she should know that we as Christians will support any just aspect of her situation. even when it's almost impossible to do so.
thank you for taking the trouble to write such a lengthy post in response to my post.
God Bless you.
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Kindgo
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That is an excellent post Linda ![[thumbsup]](graemlins/thumbsup2.gif)
Thank You
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God bless,
Kindgo
Inside the will of God there is no failure. Outside the will of God there is no success.
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helpforhomeschoolers
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The problem is that this land was given by God to Israel for a Homeland FOREVER in 1500 BC.
Here is a little history up to the past 27 years. Perhaps this will shed some light on the other side of this coin.
In 70 AD Jerusalem was burned and Israel was scattered.
In 135 AD the Jews (Israel) returned to Jerusalem and began to rebuild the temple under a false Messiah Barcocheba the Roman army under Hadrian stopped this and killed another 580,000 Jews.
The Emperor Hadrian determined to erase the Jews forever rebuilt the city and named it Aelia Capitolina; forbade the Jews to enter it; -desecrated the platform where the great Temple once stood, with a pagan shrine to Aphrodite, while the place where Jesus was buried was built temple and statue to Jupiter and on Calvary a statue of Venus.
In 335AD under Constantine, the desecrations were torn down and Jerusalem was turned into one of 5 world centers of Christendom. Initially the Byzantines treated the Jews with the same intolerance as the Romans had, forbidding them to take up residence in the city, allowed only to visit the Wailing Wall once a year. In the 5th century this ban was lifted.
In 614AD Jerusalem fell to the Persian Muslims and it remained in the hands of the Muslims (later under Egypt, and then the Turks) except for about a 100 yr period during the crusades when it was again returned to Christendom
1917 AD Jerusalem again fell, this time to Britain. The Belfour Declaration named after Prime MinisterBalfour declared that Palestine become a homeland forthe Jews. Confirmed their Historical and religious entitlement to the land of Palestine.
In 1920 The mandate system was established by Article 22 of the Covenant of the League of Nations as formulated at the Paris Peace Conference (January-June 1919). Under this article it was stated that the territories inhabited by peoples unable to stand by themselves would be entrusted to advanced nations until such time as the local population could handle their own affairs. This concept was incorporated into the Treaty of Versailles on June 28, 1919. The area of the Mandate was 118,000 square kilometers or 45,000 square miles. In the case of Palestine, the administrative control, in the form of a Mandate, was given to Britain. By naming this territory the "British Mandate for Palestine" the area that is today Israel and Jordan became the first and only geographic division with the name Palestine since before the Ottoman Empire controlled the area (beginning in 1517).
In July 1920 the Mandate civil administration took over from the military. For the first time since Crusader days Jerusalem was again a capital city.
The terms of the British Mandate incorporated the language of the Balfour Declaration and were approved by the League of Nations Council on July 24, 1922, although they were technically not official until September 29, 1923. The United States was not a member of the League of Nations, but a joint resolution of the United States Congress on June 30, 1922, endorsed the concept of the Jewish National Home.
THE ARABS RIOT
In March 1921, Winston Churchill, then British colonial secretary, convened a high-level conference in Cairo to consider Middle East policy. As a result of these deliberations, Britain subdivided the Palestine Mandate along the Jordan River-Gulf of Aqaba line. The eastern portion--called Transjordan--was to have a separate Arab administration operating under the general supervision of the commissioner for Palestine, with Abdullah appointed as emir giving all of Palestine east of the River Jordan [77% of Palestine] to Arab Moslems, forbidding Jews to live there. A violation of the 1917 Balfour declaration. In 1921, Britain separated 91,000 square kilometers of the Mandate from Palestine and created Trans-Jordan as a protectorate of Britain, which later became the Arab country of Jordan.
Then in 1922 the League of Nations gave Great Britain a Mandate to prepare the remaining 23 percent of Palestine (including Samaria, Judea, Gaza, Golan Heights and Eastern Jerusalem) for a Jewish National Home.
A British government memorandum in September 1922 ("The Churchill White Paper"), approved by the League of Nations Council, specifically excluded Jewish settlement from the Transjordan area of the Palestine Mandate. The whole process was aimed at satisfying wartime pledges made to the Arabs and at carrying out British responsibilities under the Mandate.
In 1923, Britain ceded the Golan Heights (1,176 square kilometers) to the French Mandate of Syria. Jews were also barred from living in these areas. Jewish settlers on the Golan Heights abandoned their homes and relocated inside the reduced area of the British Mandate.
From 1922 through 1928 the relationship between Jews and Arabs in Palestine was relatively peaceful. However, in late 1928 a new phase of violence began with minor disputes between Jews and Arabs about the right of Jews to pray at the Western Wall (Kotel) in Jerusalem.
THE ARABS RIOT
On Friday, August 23, 1929 Arab mobs attacked Jews in Jerusalem, Motza, Hebron, Safed, Jaffa,and other parts of the country. The Old City ofJerusalem was hit particularly hard. By the next day, the Haganah was able to mount a defense andfurther attacks in Jerusalem were repulsed. But, the violence in Jerusalem generated rumors throughout the country; many carrying fabricated accounts of Jewish attempts to defile Muslim holy places, all to inflame the Arab residents. Villages were plundered and destroyed by Arab mobs. While attacks on Jews in Tel Aviv and Haifa were thwarted by Jewish defenses, there were Jewish deaths in Hebron, where 67 Jewish men and women were slaughtered and Safed, where 18 Jews were killed, as well as scattered other losses totaling 133 Jewish deaths, with more than 300 wounded. The Arab violence in Hebron was one of the worst atrocities in the modern history of Israel. On the afternoon of Friday, August 23, 1929 Jerusalem Arabs came to Hebron with false reports of Jews murdering Arabs during the rioting there, even saying thousands of Arabs had been killed. Despite the fact that Jews and Arabs in Hebron had been on good terms, a mass of frenzied Arab rioters formed and proceeded to the Hebron Yeshiva where a lone student was murdered. The next day, the Jewish Sabbath, the killing continued as an Arab mob of hundreds surrounded homes where Jews sought refuge, broke in and murdered scores of Jews in a bloody rampage.
The dead Jews that day included Eliezer Dan Slonim, a man highly esteemed by the Arabs. He was the director of the local English-Palestine bank whose many clients were Arabs, and was the sole Jewish member of the Hebron Municipal Council. He had many friends among the Arab elders, who had promised to protect him. Twenty-two people died in Slonim's house that day including his wife and two young children.By the end of the riot, during which the British police did nothing to protect the Jews or stop the violence, sixty-seven Jews were dead and hundreds wounded. The survivors were isolated in a police station for three days while the Arabs rampaged through their houses, stealing and destroying Jewish property, unmolested by the British authorities. At the end of the three days the Jews were sent to Jerusalem, exiled from their homes for the crime of being a victim of the Arab riot. Hebron's ancient Jewish quarter was Empty and destroyed. For the next 39 years no Jew lived in Hebron, not until after it was liberated by the Israeli military during the Six Day War in 1967.
1930 - Britain severely limits the immigration of Jews to Palestine
NOT GOOD ENOUGHTHE ARABS RIOT
In April 1936, riots broke out in Jaffa commencing a three-year period of violence and civil strife in Palestine that is known as the Arab Revolt. The Arab Higher Committee, headed by the Mufti Haj Amin al-Husseini, led the campaign of terrorism against Jewish and British targets. The Arabs began by proclaiming an Arab general strike and boycott of Jewish enterprises and products. They made demands on the British Mandate administration, principally: ¨ An end to Jewish immigration¨ An end to transfers of land to Jewish owners¨ A new "general representative government"
By August 1936 Britain in an effort to protect her interests from the rioters used military force to end the rioting.
THE ARABS RIOT
1937 - In their Report of July of 1937, the Peel Commission attributed the underlying cause of the Arab revolt to the desire of the Arabs for national independence and their hatred and fear of the establishment of a National Jewish Home. The Commission recommended freezing Jewish immigration at 12,000 per year for five years and that a plan for partition of the land be developed.
Then, in September 1937, following the July report by the Peel Commission, the violent tactics resumed. Armed Arab terrorism, under the direction of the Higher Committee, was used to attack the Jews and to suppress Arab opponents. This campaign of violence continued through 1938 and then tapered off, ending in early 1939. The toll was terrible: Eighty Jews were murdered by terrorist acts during the labor strike, and a total of 415 Jewish deaths were recorded during the whole 1936-1939 Arab Revolt period.
1939 -In the 1939 White Paper, the limitation on Jewish immigration was made permanent. Seventy-five thousand Jewish immigrants would be allowed to enter Palestine over a five-year period and any subsequent increase would require the acquiescence of the Arabs. The British repudiated the Balfour Declaration and their commitments under the League of Nations just at the time of greatest need for a sanctuary for Jewish refugees. The issue was no longer merely an opportunity for Jewish immigration and national aspirations. The Jews were desperate. The British denied the Jews a haven from Nazi atrocities they so desperately needed at the time, though Britain did not endorse the principle of self-determination of the majority.
The provisions of the White Paper clearly put Britain in violation of the Balfour Declaration and the League of Nations Mandate for Palestine. However, the League of Nations made no real effort to withdraw the legal Mandate from Britain or even to suggest a moral censure. Nor could such be expected to have been made given the depths to which the League had sunk by 1939.
With the outbreak of World War II, the report and the League itself became irrelevant and the White Paper remained the basis of British policy until the end of the Mandate. The White Paper decrees were rescinded by the first action of the Provisional Council of State on May 15, 1948, when the State of Israel was established.
Throughout WWII Britain's interference on the immigration of Jews to Palestine, made it all but impossible for the Jews to escape the horrors of the Nazi's. In February 1942 in the case of the Romanian ship 'Struma' which anchored in Turkey awaiting permission to land 747 Romanian Jews in Palestine. The British not only refused to let the refugees continue to Palestine, they encouraged Turkish authorities to tow the ship into the Black Sea and cast it adrift, an inhuman act given that the passengers had been on board for 74 days, overcrowded with inadequate supplies. A Russian submarine with the loss of 796 people then sank the ship. This tragic incident was the final blow to support of Britain among the Jews of Palestine.
1946 - Britain unilaterally granted Transjordan its independence. (2) With Transjordan's independence, the British had partitioned Palestine and created an independent Palestine-Arab state. Britain subsequently turned the issue over to the UN in February 1947. The UN established a Special Commission on Palestine (UNSCOP) to devise a solution. Delegates from 11 nations went there and found what had long been apparent: The conflicting national aspirations of Jews and Arabs could not be reconciled.
In November 1947, the United Nations voted to end the British Mandate over Palestine by May 15, 1948, and to partition it into Jewish and Arab states, with Jerusalem an international city. Jews in Palestine and elsewhere readily accepted the partition in spite of the fact that the proposed division left the Jewish state surrounded by hostile Arabs on all sides and relatively indefensible. It was the Arabs that rejected the UN proposal! Remember - what is being divided now is the remaining 23% of the original Balfour Mandate. The Transjordan area is already in the control of Jordan and Syria! Jews are not permitted in that area. Now the United Nations purposes to divide the remaining 23%, bit this is not good enough.
The UN resolution passes anyway. But the Palestinian Arabs do not want independence they just do not want an Israeli State established.
Violence in the Holy Land broke out almost immediately after the UN announced partition on November 29, 1947. Jamal Husseini, the Arab Higher Committee's spokesman, had told the UN prior to the partition vote the Arabs would drench "the soil of our beloved country with the last drop of our blood . . ..”
On Friday May 14, 1948 (the day in which the British Mandate over Palestine expired) the Declaration of the Establishment of the State of Israel was signed by members of the National Council gathered at the Tel Aviv Museum, representing the Jewish community in the country and the Zionist movement abroad. It went into effect at midnight, Tel Aviv time.
Immediately following the declaration of the State of Israel on May 14, 1948 and the departure of the British the next day, the five Arab armies invaded Israel. The Arabs had no difficulty obtaining all the arms they needed. In fact, Jordan's Arab Legion was armed and trained by the British, and led by a British officer. At the end of 1948 and beginning of 1949, British RAF planes flew with Egyptian squadrons over the Israel-Egypt border. On January 7, 1949, Israeli planes shot down four of the British aircraft.16The Jews, on the other hand, were forced to smuggle weapons, principally from Czechoslovakia. When Israel declared its independence in May 1948, the army did not have a single cannon or tank. Its air force consisted of nine obsolete planes. Although the Haganah had 60,000 trained fighters, only 18,900 were fully mobilized, armed and prepared for war.17 On the eve of the war, chief of operations Yigael Yadin told David Ben-Gurion: "The best we can tell you is that we have a 5050 chance."
The Arab war to destroy Israel failed. Indeed, because of their aggression, the Arabs wound up with less territory than they would have had if they had accepted partition.
The cost to Israel, however, was enormous. "Many of its most productive fields lay gutted and mined. Its citrus groves, for decades the basis of the Yishuv's [Jewish community] economy, were largely destroyed."19 Military expenditures totaled approximately $500 million. Worse yet, 6,373 Israelis were killed, nearly one percent of the Jewish population of 650,000.
The War of Independence was formally terminated on July 20, 1949 with the signing of the Israel-Syria armistice agreement. Only Iraq did not sign an armistice agreement with Israel. It preferred to withdraw its troops and hand over its sector to the Arab Legion of Jordan.
Throughout the latter phases of the war, Israel gained strength, fought successfully and not only ejected the invading Arab forces, but also captured and held some 5,000 sq. km. over and above the areas allocated to it by the United Nations in the original partition plan, with a considerable improvement in defensible borders.
At the end of the War of Independence in 1949, Jerusalem was left divided, with a border running through the city and cutting neighborhoods, streets, even houses. East Jerusalem was held by TransJordan and would remain so until June 1967, after the 1967 War. Economically, at the end of the War of Independence in 1948 the new, reborn State of Israel was in a state of exhaustion. Holocaust survivors from Europe and other displaced persons from Arab countries in the Middle East and North Africa flooded into Israel by the tens of thousands. Its treasury was empty, its economy was in danger of collapse and its already meager resources were drained.
Following the 1948 war, in which Jordan captured and later annexed East Jerusalem, Israel and Jordan engaged in extensive negotiations. The Armistice Agreement was signed on 3 April 1949, and in Article VIII, the parties agreed to establish a Committee "for the purpose of formulating agreed plans." including "free access to the Holy Places and cultural institutions and use of the cemetery on the Mount of Olives".
The Palestinian Arabs were encouraged to leave by Palestine by Syria, Jordan, and Egypt. However, they were not welcomed into these countries and assimilated into society. They were kept in refugee camps under deplorable conditions and told they would return to Palestine when Israel was pushed into the sea.Israel encouraged the Palestinian Arabs to remain in Israel and offered them full Israeli citizenship.
For the next 18 years, the Jordanians refused to create this committee, and Article VIII remained a dead letter. On Rosh Hashanah, Yom Kippur, Trisha B'av, and other holidays, instead of the traditional prayers at the Western Wall and in the synagogues of the Jewish Quarter, Jews gathered at Mount Zion, on the other side of the barbed wire. While Christians, including Paul VI, were escorted across the divide into East Jerusalem, the Jews and Israelis were always left behind, attempting to snatch glimpses across the divide.
At the same time, the barren debates on the "internationalization of Jerusalem" continued in the United Nations, and the Vatican also pressed its claims. On occasion, Abba Eban and other Israeli officials reminded the representatives that although the Christian and Moslem sacred sites were freely accessible, "the Wailing Wall, the most hallowed sanctuary of Judaism and the most ancient shrine in the entire city is barred to all access by worshippers despite solemn agreements and undertakings." As soon as the Israeli speech ended, the subject changed.
Without access to the Old City, the Jewish Quarter, the Mount of Olives, and other areas, Israel and the Jewish people were also unable to prevent the destruction and desecration of the sacred sites that remained intact after the war in 1948. In the course of the occupation, 57 synagogues, libraries and centers of religious study were ransacked and 12 were totally destroyed. The structures that remained standing were used for housing of both people and animals, for latrines, and desecrated in other ways.
The Western Wall (the Jewish parallel to the Church of the Holy Sepulcher or the Al Aksa Mosque) was turned into a garbage dump.
In addition, thousands of tombstones from the cemetery on the Mount of Olives - in use for 3000 years -- were used as paving stones for roads and as construction material in Jordanian army camps. Graves were broken and used as steps and for building materials in army camps, walkways and other structures. Parts of the cemetery were used as parking lots and a filling station. The Intercontinental Hotel was built at the top of the cemetery.
Throughout this period of the occupation and desecration of Jewish Jerusalem, appeals to the United Nations and the international community were ignored. The meetings of the Mixed Armistice Commission continued, but Article VIII was never implemented. Such international agreements are not self-enforcing, and unless the party whose rights are violated, or an outside power, is willing to use force to insure implementation, there is no assurance that the terms will be honored.
In 1956 Egypt sealed off the Israeli port of Eilat, haulting Israel's sea trade with Africa and the Far East. Israel responded militarially on October 29, 1956. Britain and France, launched their own campaign in order to reverse Egypt's nationalization of the Suez canal. In March 1957, Israel withdrew her troops from the Sinai and Gaza strip. These troops were replaced with 3300 United Nations troops. The Egyptians still refused to open the Suez Canal to Israeli shipping.
In 1966 Israel's neighbors were escalating activities against her. Israeli civilians were killed in the Syrian and Jordanian borders. The Syrians continually shelled Israeli towns from the Golan Heights. In May 1967 in a matter of days Eqypt moved into the Sinai and expelled the UN Peacekeepers from Israel’s border, and closed the Straits of Tiran to Israeli shipping. Encouraged by Egypt - Syria, Jordan, Iraq and Saudi Arabia moved their troops to Israel's borders.
On June 5th, 1967 Israel pre-empted the attack and advanced on Egypt. Israel appeal ed to Jordan to stay out of the war. Jordan refused and opened a heavy artillery barrage on both west Jerusalem and the Tel-Aviv. Israel responded and three days later Israel had defeated the Jordan and captured the whole of Judea and Samaria. On the morning of June 9th, Israel attacked the Syrians on the Golan Heights
By the Grace of God alone, In 6 short days, Israel who was out gunned, out tanked, surrounded on three sides by a well equipped enemy, and the sea on the fourth side, managed to capture the entire Sinai Peninsula, the Gaza strip, Judea and Samaria, and the Golan Heights .
Israel really never wanted the land gained in the 1967 six-day war. It wanted peace in its homeland. Israel was willing to give back all land taken in the six-day war and return to her pre 1967 borders if the surrounding Arab nations would only cease there continual terrorist advances against her.
This however was not acceptable to the surrounding efforts whose agenda from the beginning had been to push her into the sea.
1967-1970
The Arab’s refused dialog with Israel and as early as July 1, 1967, Egypt began shelling Israeli positions near the Suez Canal. On October 21, 1967, Egypt sank the Israeli destroyer Eilat, killing 47.
In 1968 Egypt began what would become known as the 2- year war of attrition when they began to shell Israeli positions along the entire length of Suez Canal.
Nasser was banking on the fact that Israel's army consisted of reserves, it could not withstand a lengthy war of attrition. He believed Israel would be unable to endure the economic burden, and the constant casualties would undermine Israeli morale.
Nasser hoped to exploit Israel’s weakness (a small population) through a strategy of attrition. This on again/off again battle drew international attention in 1970 when the soviet union began to install SA-3 missile batteries manned by soviet personnel in Egypt. In April soviet pilots were flying operational missions from air bases in Egypt . Israel continued to enlarge its operations against Egypt until the Egyptian military came close to collapse. The bloody War of Attrition lasted nearly two years. Israel lost 15 combat aircraft, most shot down by antiaircraft guns and missiles. The Israeli death toll between June 15, 1967, and August 8, 1970, was 1,424 soldiers and more than 100 civilians. Another 2,000 soldiers and 700 civilians were wounded.
The war of attrition ended when the United States brokered a cease-fire. In 1971, Egypt sent a letter to the UN stating that it was interested in a peace agreement with Israel. The Egyptian people were kept in the dark about this letter and almost immediately after it was sent Anwar Sadat, the new Egyptian president, speaking in Cairo, pledged support to the PLO until they achieved victory. Throughout 1971 and 1972, Sadat threatened attack and tried to force Israel to sign a peace treaty agreeing to relinquish the territory gained in the 6-day war but Israel refused. These pre-1967 borders had left Israel virtually indefensible and the UN resolution 242, that ended the 6-day war did not call for Israel to retreat back to these borders.
In 1973- At noon on Israel’s most holy day ,Yom Kippur, Israel was simultaneously attacked on two fronts by Egypt and Syria. After 2 years of Egypt and Syria moving equipment near the cease fire lines and not attacking Israel had become complacent and was unprepared for this attack. At 4 a.m. on Yom Kippur, a Saturday, Israeli Intelligence learned from an unimpeachable source that it would face war on two fronts that day before the sun set. They called for mobilization and a preemptive strike. But the Israeli leaders knew the world would not accept a preemptive strike. The signs of an impending attack were not taken seriously by Defense Minster, Moshe Dyan who nixed a large mobilization. By 9 AM Prime Minster, Golda Meir gave the command to gear up with 100,000 troops but agreed with Dyan against a preemptive attack. At noon. the Soviet backed Egyptian military quickly advanced with more than 70,000 infantrymen on the unsuspecting 500 IDF soldiers stationed along the canal. At the same time Egypt was advancing across the Suez Canal, Syria was attacking the Golan heights from the air and was advancing with tanks toward Lake Kinneret, Israel’s main water supply. Syrian tanks outnumbered Israel’s tank power in the area by more than 800 armored units. Yet over the next two days, Israel managed to push Syria back to the 1967 cease-fire lines. By October 14, the IDF had penetrated Syrian territory. By the end of the war 16 days later, Israel had pushed Syria back to within 40 miles of its capitol city of Damascus. By Oct. 13, peacekeeping initiatives had failed, the Soviet Union began airlifting supplies to Egypt and Syria, and Jordan and Iraq had troops en route to reinforce the Syrians. US president Nixon was torn with the threat of an Arab oil embargo if he supplied military aid to Israel, and the fear that Israel would have no choice to respond with nuclear weaponry if he didn’t; So, October 14, 1973 American planes landed in Israel with more than 97 tons of ammunition. The oil embargo came two days later and US planes carrying ammunition and supplies to Israel were denied landing everywhere in Europe except Portugal, nonetheless, the shipments to Israel continued for 31 days and more than 500 missions.Now supplied with tanks and ammunition from the US, Israel attacked the Egyptian forces with a vengence, by October 19th the Israelis had built a bridge over the canal and were now established on the West bank. They had wiped out the Egyptian surface to air misels and were well on their way to Cairo.Now that it appeared that neither Egypt nor Syria were going to win this war the UN ordered a cease fire. The war ended just sixteen days after it began with a cease-fire. Israel had come within 42 miles of Egypt’s capitol of Cairo, but she lost more than 2,700 troops in the battle. It is estimated that Egypt lost 15,000 troops and Syria suffered casualties of 3,500 troops in the fray.
1974- Was a year of change in the climate of the world for the worse and the burdensome stone, which is Israel, became heavier. It would be January of 1974, before an Egyptian-Israeli disengagement agreement would be reached. And not until May before an agreement would be reached with the Syrians. Frustrated by the losses in the last two wars, angered at Jordan for not supporting them in the Yom Kippur war, and more determined than ever to push Israel into the sea, the PLO under the leadership of Yassar Arafat decides to change their stratagey. On June 9, 1974 - the PLO adopted was is known as the Phase Plan. This plan was basically a changed of stratagy in the Arab efforts to rid the middle east of an Israeli state. The plan included an effort to remove the leadership of Jordan, who had sat out the Yom Kippur war and replace Jordan’s leadership with one that would unite with them in the effort to push Israel into the sea.Here are the major tenants of the PLO Phase Plan:1. Terrorism - The Liberation Organization will employ all means, and first and foremost armed struggle, to liberate Palestinian territory and to establish the independent combatant national authority for the people over every part of Palestinian territory that is liberated.2. Removal of the state of Israel - Once it is estabished, the Palestinian national authority will strive to achieve a union of the confrontation countries, with the aim of completing the liberation of all Palestinian territory, and as a step along the road to comprehensive Arab unity. 3. Removal of Jordan’s leadership - Struggle along with the Jordanian national forces to establish a Jordanian-Palestinian national front whose aim will be to set up in Jordan a democratic national authority in close contact with the Palestinian entity that is established through the struggle. The PLO also gained observer rights in the UN assemblies and in spite of their well published commitment to the destruction of Israel at all costs and the acts of terrorism against Israeli children and civillians like the bombing of a school in may of 1974 and death of 23 children at their hands.
Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002
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listener
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yes, you are correct to point out that i failed to support my views with contradictory facts.
in the case of the Sioux, none were needed. the words used to describe them, to a person who has never been to Dakota, me, represented them as a race of criminals,
"They can come into the cities write bad checks, buy cars and not pay and go right back to their homelands where they cannot be touched by local or state law enforcement or civil courts for their actions." and a people who receive government compensation without justification...
'but do not believe for one moment that they were not and are still being compensated and compensated well or that they do not willingly take that compensation.' and that there is no basis for their complaints, or my parallel with the Palestinians.
They have a homeland and are protected as a soverign nation.
everyone in Dakota lives on Sioux land. it was taken from them by force. their way of life was destroyed by more powerful cultures. just because there is no way back, no way to return their land, does not make it correct. does anyone really believe that they can be 'compensated' with money?
there is no dispute that the words used to describe the Sioux were derogatory. i have read them through many times.
i would not be true to my Christian beliefs if i accepted the explanation given for them.
in respect of the Palestinian people, i can only write of what i saw with my own eyes. my own experiences.
i went to Israel in 1998 with a Christian group from university. i still write regularly to the Jewish family i stayed with. and yes, i argue with them too! they would portray themselves like the Sioux. a displaced people. they waited for centuries to seize their opportunity to reclaim their homeland. the wonders they have achieved in a desert place are incredible.
unfortunately it has come at a cost. we don't have any natural empathy with the Palestinian people because their religion is opposed to ours. if they originated in other countries, they came to Palestine centuries ago. a far greater period of time than any of your forebears arrived in America. in the same way that peoples who came from every country in the world to become Americans in two short centuries, the people who came to Palestine over twenty centuries have earned the right to call themselves Palestinians. i saw the 'refugee' camps. they have existed since the 1940's. there is no where for them to go. the land they were evicted from is now in Israel. an elderly man showed us his village, and the grave of his father. it had been bulldozed from the landscape. you could just see the outlines of the foundations. nothing had been built to replace what had been a thriving village. it was an early example of ethnic cleansing.
i am only 25. i was 21 when i was there. i am old enough to know that what you write is wrong. the quotations from the 1920's/1930's and 1940's do not shed any light on the present situation.
i was taught from my childhood that the essence of Christianity was forgiveness, tolerance, equality. i wish that i hadn't begun this discussion because it can not go anywhere. we must just agree to disagree.
may God bless you.
Posts: 119 | Registered: Aug 2002
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becauseHElives
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Hey all,
I for one with barrykind would like to say, helpforhomeschoolers this board has many assets, but you are diffently in the top 5, you dilengently post timely and heart felt messages, in a way that seems to try to be sensitive to the hour in which we live.
helpforhomeschoolers thank you
from becauseHElives
listener, maybe you would do be better, to do as your name suggest, listen.
You could learn much from helpfromhomeschooler.
I know I speak for all, when I say we love you!
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
Posts: 4578 | From: Southeast Texas | Registered: Jun 2002
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barrykind
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im not up to speed on all that is pertained in this thread, but soon will be...
BUT LET ME state with utmost assuredness, HelpFOr HOmeschoolers has never posted anything like what you stated: listner..so if you dont mind listen.. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
First listner you said:
quote:
what you write about the Palestinians is totally incorrect ma'am
Well give me some facts listner..
quote:
would like to withdraw from this discussion as you have a conclusion and are writing 'facts' to support it. it does no service to anyone. i would just ask all interested parties to read up on the subject.
Like i said i will read the last post of homeschoolers, but she has never before wrote things in the way you describe, she will let you know facts from her opinions.
If you would like to leave this post ok, thats up to you, but bring in some facts of your own if it will help your cause.. DOnt just run off after spouting acusations, your talking to a saint of the Most High God YaHWeH and my sister whom i love..
quote:
your words are rooted in racial prejudice
Thats the most absurd thing you have spoken to this point, helpforhomeschoolers is certainly not racail nor predjudice, in any of her posts that i have read other than strong against SIN..
Reconsider why you have had this outburst, did this thread strike a nerve, is their a root of sin in your life, i still have not seen why you have acted this way,,
Try to post your ideals, facts, in a calm rational manner..
In Him
Barry
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The HEART of the issue is truly the issue of the HEART!
John 3:3;Mark 8:34-38;James 1:27
Posts: 3529 | From: Orange, Texas | Registered: Jun 2002
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helpforhomeschoolers
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Your comment is funny let's look at what the Palestinians have said:
There are no differences between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. We are all part of one nation. It is only for political reasons that we carefully underline our Palestinian identity....yes, the existence of a separate Palestinian identity serves only tactical purposes. The founding of a Palestinian state is a new tool in the continuing battle against Israel
PLO Executive Committee Member Zuhair Muhsin.
"We consider Palestine as part of Arab Syria, as it has never been separated from it at any time. We are connected with it by national, religious, linguistic, natural, economic and geographical bonds."
"There is no such country [as Palestine]! 'Palestine' is a term the Zionists invented! There is no Palestine in the Bible. Our country was for centuries part of Syria."
- Auni Bey Abdul-Hadi, a local Arab leader, to the Peel Commission, 1937
"Palestine was part of the Province of Syria...
...politically, the Arabs of Palestine were not independent in the sense of forming a separate political entity."
- The representative of the Arab Higher Committee to the United Nations submitted this in a statement to the General Assembly in May 1947
"It is common knowledge that Palestine is nothing but southern Syria."
- Ahmed Shuqeiri, later the chairman of the PLO, to the UN Security Council
As to racial prejudice, the bible teaches that we are all one race... Human.
I was attempting to show you that the Sioux live on Sovergn land and are not subject to the laws of the US state that surround that land, though they are free as also americans to travel from their sovergn land to the surrounding state and once back on their sovergn land are not subject to the laws of the state. Not exactly a people with no homeland!
Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002
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listener
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what you write about the Palestinians is totally incorrect ma'am. i don't know where you gleaned your 'facts', but it was obviously not from anyone who has been to Palestine, or knows anything about it's people. i would like to withdraw from this discussion as you have a conclusion and are writing 'facts' to support it. it does no service to anyone. i would just ask all interested parties to read up on the subject.
i don't know Dakota, but i am quite certain that there are many non-Sioux people there who commit the crimes you detailed. your words are rooted in racial prejudice. i wish to distance myself from them. i won't post on this topic further.
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helpforhomeschoolers
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The problem is that the Palestinians were not palestinians! They were and are Arabs...mostly Syrians and Jordanians!
I don't know the history of the Australia back to the Aborigines, and Brazil back to the Indians, but I live in South Dakota and do know the history of the Sioux. I can tell you that treaties were broken, but do not believe for one moment that they were not and are still being compensated and compensated well or that they do not willingly take that compensation.They have a homeland and are protected as a sovergn nation. They can come into the cities write bad checks, buy cars and not pay and go right back to their homelands where they cannot be touched by local or state law enforcement or civil courts for their actions. There are two sides to every story and the side told in the 70's by AIM was motivated not by justice for a misplaced homeless people, but by the greed for power of a very few who were incited the masses and exploit their own people for their own agenda... much like the Arabs have done to the Palestinians. These vocal few do little to benefit their exploits in a real and valuable way, do nothing to develop business, do nothing to care for the land, do nothing to better housing,agriculture, infrastructure, care of the aged, healthcare, or education. There quest is not for the well being of the countrymen they exploit it is for their own political and financial gain. Most of them do not even live in the community on a full time basis.
Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002
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listener
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the middle eastern countries (in fact, most of the world), are still trying to adjust to the long term consequences of British imperialism.
unfortunately, the arab countries perceive the attempts by the USA to be the middle man in the region as imperialism by another name.
i was in Israel and Palestine 4 years ago for a student vacation. if you talk to both sides, opposite views, you agree with them both. it's very confusing, and very sad.
if we are Christians, and we believe our Bibles, we have to accept that the coming of Israel is inevitable.
i just ponder the rights of the Palestinians. it confuses me.
if the league of nations had given the great plains back to the Sioux, Australia back to the Aborigines, and Brazil back to the Indians, would any action have been taken to put their ideas into effect.
i found the maps very interesting. thank you.
God Bless.
Posts: 119 | Registered: Aug 2002
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Kindgo
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Member # 2
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Hey Linda,
Did you see this topic?
Flash presentation : History in a Nutshell
![[Smile]](graemlins/youpi.gif)
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God bless,
Kindgo
Inside the will of God there is no failure. Outside the will of God there is no success.
Posts: 4320 | From: Sunny Florida | Registered: Jun 2002
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barrykind
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A laarge project perhaps, but very interesting, thanks Linda for sharing this. It really puts in perspective how Israel has been pushed around for years. Seems like Israel has withheld the last few years because of US Dollars.. BUt there comes a time when Israel says; ENOUGH!
Thanks for all the work thus far..
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The HEART of the issue is truly the issue of the HEART!
John 3:3;Mark 8:34-38;James 1:27
Posts: 3529 | From: Orange, Texas | Registered: Jun 2002
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helpforhomeschoolers
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posted
Here is one more quote:
“Arab policy at this stage has but two objectives. The first, the elimination of the traces of the 1967 aggression through an Israeli withdrawal from all the territories it occupied that year. The second objective is the elimination of the traces of the 1948 aggression, by the means of the elimination of the State of Israel itself. This is, however, as yet an abstract, undefined objective, and some of us have erred in commencing the latter step before the former.”
Mohammed Heikal , Sadat confidant
Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002
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helpforhomeschoolers
Advanced Member
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You know it seems that the attempt to rewrite history has been somewhat successful. Many have forgotten the truth and believed the lies and retoric that has been spewed over Israel for the past 90 years. I am working on a page for my sight that shows the truth about these historical events, but it has turned out to be a much bigger project than I had anticipated.
I thought you might enjoy these maps which provide an interesting look at the truth:
1920 map of the land given by the league of nations to Israel for a JEWISH HOMELAND:
This is what happened in the first of many betrayals by Britain and the world: 77% of the original land was given to the Arabs as the area called transjordan
By 1947, what they were given was a far cry from the original land allocated for a Jewish homeland; now the remaining 23% was being divided this is what the land now looked like:
The very day they were granted statehood they were attacked; they won that war and took territory from their attackers. Here is what their land looked like at the end of this war.
Azzam Pasha, Secretary-General of the Arab League, declared their intentions:
“This will be a war of extermination and a momentous massacre which will be spoken of like the Mongolian massacres and the Crusades.”
Lord Caradon, chief architect of the resolution, said, "It would have been wrong to demand that Israel return to its positions of June 4, 1967, because those positions
were undesirable and artificial. After all, they were just the places where the soldiers of each side happened to be on the day the fighting stopped in 1948. They were
just armistice lines. That’s why we didn’t demand that
the Israelis return to them."
In 1967, it was Israel that struck first, but not with out cause. Look at the military movement against her at the time on all sides. And remember that Egypt closed Israel's access to the Suez Canal, cutting off trade.:
On June 5th, 1967 Israel pre-empted the attack and advanced on Egypt. Israel appeal ed to Jordan to stay out of the war. Jordan refused and opened a heavy artillery barrage on both west Jerusalem and the Tel-Aviv. Israel responded and three days later Israel had defeated the Jordan and captured the whole of Judea and Samaria. On the morning of June 9th, Israel attacked the Syrians on the Golan Heights
By the Grace of God alone, In 6 short days, Israel who was out gunned, out tanked, surrounded on three sides by a well equipped enemy, and the sea on the fourth side, managed to capture the entire Sinai Peninsula, the Gaza strip, Judea and Samaria, and the Golan Heights .
Israel really never wanted the land gained in the 1967 six-day war. It wanted peace in its homeland. Israel was willing to give back all land taken in the six-day war and return to her pre 1967 borders if the surrounding Arab nations would only cease there continual terrorist advances against her.
This however was not acceptable to the surrounding efforts whose agenda from the beginning had been to push her into the sea.
1967-1970
The Arab’s refused dialog with Israel and as early as July 1, 1967, Egypt began shelling Israeli positions near the Suez Canal. On October 21, 1967, Egypt sank the Israeli destroyer Eilat, killing 47.
In 1968 Egypt began what would become known as the 2- year war of attrition when they began to shell Israeli positions along the entire length of Suez Canal.
Here is the territory she gained in the 6 day war:
Not the strategic advantage and economic advantage Israel gained in capturing the Sinai! She has given this all up in a effort to negotiate peace.
Let us also note that Israel offered full citizenship to all displaced Arabs involved in these conflicts and encouraged them to stay in their homes as full Israeli citzens!
It was Egypt, Jordan, and Syria that told them to leave the area, yet failed to allow their assimilation into arab societies.
This is not about a Palastinian state. This is about the abscence of and Iraeli state!
“The goal of our struggle is the end of Israel, and there can be no compromise.”
Yassar Arafat 1970
On the 26th of May, Having successfully encircled Israel, President Nasser of Egypt declared,
"Our basic goal is the destruction of Israel. “
There are no differences between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. We are all part of one nation. It is only for political reasons that we carefully underline our Palestinian identity....yes, the existence of a separate Palestinian identity serves only tactical purposes. The founding of a Palestinian state is a new tool in the continuing battle against Israel
PLO Executive Committee Member Zuhair Muhsin.
Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002
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