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Author Topic: Jesus IS God! and God IS Jesus!
helpforhomeschoolers
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1 Timothy 3: 16And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

I will never understand why this is such a struggle or debate to understand by those who cannot accept that Jesus is GOD.

There is ONE GOD. He manifest himself in the Flesh- we know that "flesh" to be Jesus of Nazareth, who is the CHRIST. In this manifestation, GOD did what no other flesh could do- He became the propitiation for our sin- He paid the price.

Thank you Father! Thank you Jesus! Thank you Holy Spirit!

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WildB
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quote:
Originally posted by Carol Swenson:
The threefold use of the name of the Lord suggests that our God is a Trinity of persons: God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. The Father is the Lord (Ps. 110:1), and so is the Son (Rom. 10:9), and so is the Spirit (2 Cor. 3:17). You see the Trinity in Matthew 3:16-17; 28:19-20; John 3:34-35; and 2 Corinthians 13:14, as well as many other places in the Bible. Ephesians 1:3-14 is actually a hymn to the Trinity: Father (vv. 3-6), Son (vv. 7-12), and Spirit (vv. 13-14).

Wiersbe
Bible Exposition Commentary - Be Counted (Numbers).

Yea it was kinda clear for this old sailor, if Christ became flesh and dwelt among us who.......
was steering the Ship in the 3rd Heaven while He did this?

I know it wasn't the Spirit, He was in dove form landing on Christ after John baptized him?

It had to been the Father at the Helm of Heaven!

That be 3 distinct jobs all being done at ONCE.

[cool_shades]

--------------------
That is all.....

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Carol Swenson
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The threefold use of the name of the Lord suggests that our God is a Trinity of persons: God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. The Father is the Lord (Ps. 110:1), and so is the Son (Rom. 10:9), and so is the Spirit (2 Cor. 3:17). You see the Trinity in Matthew 3:16-17; 28:19-20; John 3:34-35; and 2 Corinthians 13:14, as well as many other places in the Bible. Ephesians 1:3-14 is actually a hymn to the Trinity: Father (vv. 3-6), Son (vv. 7-12), and Spirit (vv. 13-14).

Wiersbe
Bible Exposition Commentary - Be Counted (Numbers).

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Carol Swenson
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When people register for this forum, they are required to agree to abide by the rules. Part of the rules are the basic beliefs of Christianity clearly listed. People who agree and register, then almost immediately start arguing against one of these basic beliefs have registered falsely. Worse, they teach a false doctrine.
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WildB
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NeutralZone, 2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

This taking of a verse and trying to build a baseball stadium with it is just plane sillyness.

Attacking Carol with rudeness is just gonna get your ars kicked son.

--------------------
That is all.....

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quote:
Originally posted by Carol Swenson:
[QB] NeutralZone,

I know that, like most people, you want to be proven right. I can't help you there.

Carol, would you mind quoting me where I said anything resembling "I want to be proven right"? I merely asked you to explain why the verses you presented as proof of a 3-in-1 god were not saying what you claimed they were saying.


quote:
Originally posted by Carol Swenson:
[QB] I can say, though, that if you deny the Holy Trinity then you will be banned from this Christian BBS.

If you think banning me will solve your problems—including the fact that you cannot explain why the scriptures you posted earlier do not say what you claim they are saying, suit yourself.


Almighty God is watching to see how sincere all of us are about giving Him clean worship. He is looking at our behavior. He is aware that you have refused to be corrected by Scriptures based on your following declaration:

quote:
Originally posted by Carol Swenson:
[QB]The Holy Trinity is a non-negotiable belief we will not compromise on as I quoted from the CBBS rules.

The ancient Bereans left us all a good example to follow. They put scripture ahead of human philosophy. They examined the Scriptures to confirm what they were told is Biblical.


“The people of Berea were more open-minded than the people of Thessalonica. They were very willing to receive God's message, and every day they carefully examined the Scriptures to see if what Paul said was true.. (Acts 17:11 -- GOD'S WORD® Translation)

You have chosen to do the opposite of what the Bereans did. You refuse to examine scripture.


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quote:
Originally posted by Carol Swenson:
[QB] NeutralZone, the Trinity cannot be explained - it is beyond human comprehension - but if you read the entire article it explains the subject much better than I can in my own words.

Really, Carol? There are 66 books in the Bible with literally thousands of verses. Are you saying you cannot locate verses to convince other people of what you insist is a very important Bible teaching?


Keep in mind That Jesus himself said everlasting life depends on KNOWING who God is, as follows:

"And this is life eternal,that they might KNOW thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent." (John 17:3, King James Version)


Carol, let me ask you this: Jesus said eternal life depends on KNOWING the true God. How are we supposed to know the true God when, by your own admission:

quote:
Originally posted by Carol Swenson:
[QB] the Trinity cannot be explained - it is beyond human comprehension

Another question for you, Carol: Do you suppose Jesus, who was a perfect human, was mistaken at John 17:3 when he indicated humans can know Almighty God? Seems to me, Jesus was so sure of it that he said OUR everlasting life depends on knowing the true God. Who should I believe? You, or Jesus Christ?


Jesus Christ (a perfect human): "Everlasting life comes from KNOWING the true God." (John 17:3)


Carol Swenson (an imperfect human): God is unknowable because he is part of a trinity that is "beyond human comprehension."


Again, who should I believe, Carol?


I will watch for your response to my questions.


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II. Who is God?

A. God

1. Deuteronomy 6:4 "Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one!
2. John 17:3 "And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and
Jesus Christ whom You have sent.
3. 1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man
Christ Jesus,
4. Isaiah 43:10 "You are My witnesses," says the LORD, "And My servant whom I have
chosen, That you may know and believe Me, And understand that I am He. Before Me
there was no God formed, Nor shall there be after Me.
5. Jude 1:25 To God our Savior, Who alone is wise, Be glory and majesty, Dominion and
power, Both now and forever. Amen.

B. Jesus

1. 1 John 5:20 And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us an
understanding, that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His
Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life.
2. Hebrews 1:8 But to the Son He says: "Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A
scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your Kingdom.
3. Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall
be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty
God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

III. Who is the Lord of lords?

A. God

1. Deuteronomy 10:17 "For the LORD your God is God of gods and Lord of lords, the great
God, mighty and awesome, who shows no partiality nor takes a bribe.
2. Psalms 136:1-4 O give thanks unto the LORD; for he is good: for his mercy endureth
for ever. 2 O give thanks unto the God of gods: for his mercy endureth for ever. 3 O give
thanks to the Lord of lords: for his mercy endureth for ever. 4 To him who alone doeth
great wonders: for his mercy endureth for ever.

B. Jesus

1. Revelation 17:14 "These will make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome
them, for He is Lord of lords and King of kings; and those who are with Him are called,
chosen, and faithful."

IV. Who is the Savior?

A. God

1. Isaiah 43:11 I, even I, am the LORD, And besides Me there is no savior.
2. 1 Timothy 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
3. Jude 1:25 To God our Savior, Who alone is wise, Be glory and majesty, Dominion and
power, Both now and forever. Amen.

B. Jesus

1. Titus 2:13 looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and
Savior Jesus Christ,
2. 2 Peter 1:11 for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting
kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
3. 1 John 4:14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son as Savior
of the world.

V. Who is I AM?

A. God

1. Exodus 3:14 And God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM." And He said, "Thus you shall
say to the children of Israel, 'I AM has sent me to you.'"

B. Jesus

1. John 8:58 Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I
AM."

VI. Who is the Holy One?

A. God

1. Isaiah 48:17 Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer, The Holy One of Israel: "I am the
LORD your God, Who teaches you to profit, Who leads you by the way you should go.
2. Psalms 89:18 For the LORD is our defence; and the Holy One of Israel is our king.
3. Isaiah 43:15 I am the LORD, your Holy One, the creator of Israel, your King.
4. Isaiah 10:20 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the remnant of Israel, and
such as are escaped of the house of Jacob, shall no more again stay upon him that
smote them; but shall stay upon the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, in truth.
5. Isaiah 17:7 At that day shall a man look to his Maker, and his eyes shall have respect
to the Holy One of Israel.
6. Isaiah 29:19 The meek also shall increase their joy in the LORD, and the poor among
men shall rejoice in the Holy One of Israel.

B. Jesus

1. Mark 1:24 Saying, Let us alone; what have we to do with thee, thou Jesus of
Nazareth? art thou come to destroy us? I know thee who thou art, the Holy One of God.
2. Acts 2:27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine
Holy One to see corruption.
3. Acts 3:14-15 "But you denied the Holy One and the Just, and asked for a murderer to
be granted to you, 15 "and killed the Prince of life, whom God raised from the dead, of
which we are witnesses.

VIII. Who shed His blood for the church?

A. God

1. Acts 20:28 "Therefore take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the
Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased
with His own blood.

B. Jesus

1. 1 Peter 1:19 but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and
without spot.
2. Hebrews 13:12 Therefore Jesus also, that He might sanctify the people with His own
blood, suffered outside the gate.
3. Colossians 1:14 in whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of
sins.

IX. Who is to be worshipped?

A. God

1. Exodus 34:14 '(for you shall worship no other god, for the LORD, whose name is
Jealous, is a jealous God),
2. Deuteronomy 30:16-17 "in that I command you today to love the LORD your God, to
walk in His ways, and to keep His commandments, His statutes, and His judgments, that
you may live and multiply; and the LORD your God will bless you in the land which you go
to possess. 17 "But if your heart turns away so that you do not hear, and are drawn
away, and worship other gods and serve them,
3. 2 Chronicles 7:19 "But if you turn away and forsake My statutes and My
commandments which I have set before you, and go and serve other gods, and worship
them,
4. Matthew 4:9-10 And he said to Him, "All these things I will give You if You will fall
down and worship me." 10 Then Jesus said to him, "Away with you, Satan! For it is
written, 'You shall worship the LORD your God, and Him only you shall serve.'"

B. Jesus

1. Matthew 2:2 saying, "Where is He who has been born King of the Jews? For we have
seen His star in the East and have come to worship Him."
2. Hebrews 1:6 But when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says: "Let all
the angels of God worship Him."
3. John 9:35-38 Jesus heard that they had cast him out; and when He had found him, He
said to him, "Do you believe in the Son of God?" 36 He answered and said, "Who is He,
Lord, that I may believe in Him?" 37 And Jesus said to him, "You have both seen Him and
it is He who is talking with you." 38 Then he said, "Lord, I believe!" And he worshipped
Him.

XIX. Is Jesus Yahweh (Jehovah)?

A. Jeremiah 23:5-6 "Behold, the days are coming," says the LORD (Yahweh), "That I will
raise to David a Branch of righteousness; A King shall reign and prosper, And execute
judgment and righteousness in the earth. 6 In His days Judah will be saved, And Israel
will dwell safely; Now this is His name by which He will be called: THE LORD (Yahweh)
OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.

XX. Is Jesus God with us?

A. Isaiah 7:14 "Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, the virgin shall
conceive and bear a Son, and shall call His name Immanuel (Immanuw'el,
im-maw-noo-ale'; from H5973 and H410 with suff. pron. ins.; with us (is) God) Strong’s.

XXI. Was God manifest in the flesh?

A. 1 Timothy 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was
manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles,
believed on in the world, received up into glory.

XXII. Is Jesus equal with God?

A. John 5:18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had
broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with
God.

XXIII. Are we to address Jesus as God?

A. John 20:24-29 But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them
when Jesus came. 25 The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the
Lord. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put
my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe.
26 And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then
came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.
27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach
hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing. 28 And
Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God. 29 Jesus saith unto him,
Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not
seen, and yet have believed.

XXIV. Unto Whom will every knee bow?

A. God

1. Isaiah 45:21-23 Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together:
who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I
the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none
beside me. 22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God,
and there is none else. 23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in
righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue
shall swear.

B. Jesus

1. Philippians 2:10-11 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in
heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11 And that every tongue
should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

--------------------
A Servant of Christ,
Drew

1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..

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WildB
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The LORD God made the earth and the heavens,the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

Lord God Spirit.

3=1

Example. Fire= fuel + temp + air

A simple example can be seen in the combustion of hydrogen and oxygen into water vapor, a reaction commonly used to fuel rocket engines. This reaction releases −242 kJ/mol of enthalpy (heat):

2H2(g) + O2(g) → 2H2O(g)

1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

Ecclesiastes 4:12 And if one prevail against him, two shall withstand him; and a threefold cord is not quickly broken.

Hebrews 10:7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.


NeutralZone, 2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

This taking of a verse and trying to build a baseball stadium with it is just plane sillyness.

--------------------
That is all.....

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Carol Swenson
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NeutralZone, the Trinity cannot be explained - it is beyond human comprehension - but if you read the entire article it explains the subject much better than I can in my own words.

I know that, like most people, you want to be proven right. I can't help you there.

I can say, though, that if you deny the Holy Trinity then you will be banned from this Christian BBS. The Holy Trinity is a non-negotiable belief we will not compromise on as I quoted from the CBBS rules.

If you would like, there are other articles I can present here for you to help you understand, but the ones available to me are very long.

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quote:
Originally posted by Carol Swenson:
[QB] Trinity

God is One and Three

"This is what the Lord says—
Israel's King and Redeemer, the Lord
Almighty: I am the first and I am the last;
apart from me there is no God."

ISAIAH 44:6

Carol:

Excellent choice of scripture. It clearly states there is only one true God. But where does the verse say "one in three"? Do explain.


quote:
Originally posted by Carol Swenson:
[QB]The Old Testament constantly insists that there is only one God, the self-revealed Creator, who must be worshiped and loved exclusively (Deut. 6:4-5; Isa. 44:6-45:25).

Exactly. Scripture consistently informs the reader that there is only one true God. In fact, the Shema at Deuteronomy 6:4 leaves us in no doubt of that.

"Hear, Israel: Yahweh is our God; Yahweh is ONE." (Deuteronomy 6:4, World English Bible)


The verse identifies only Yahweh the Father as God. Where in that verse does it mention three persons combined into one God? I don't understand these things, so I hope you can explain it to me.


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Carol Swenson
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Trinity

God is One and Three

"This is what the Lord says—
Israel's King and Redeemer, the Lord
Almighty: I am the first and I am the last;
apart from me there is no God."

ISAIAH 44:6


The Old Testament constantly insists that there is only one God, the self-revealed Creator, who must be worshiped and loved exclusively (Deut. 6:4-5; Isa. 44:6-45:25). The New Testament agrees (Mark 12:29-30; 1 Cor. 8:4; Eph. 4:6; 1 Tim. 2:5) but speaks of three personal agents, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, working together in the manner of a team to bring about salvation (Rom. 8; Eph. 1:3-14; 2 Thess. 2:13-14; 1 Pet. 1:2). The historic formulation of the Trinity (derived from the Latin word trinitas, meaning "threeness") seeks to circumscribe and safeguard this mystery (not explain it; that is beyond us), and it confronts us with perhaps the most difficult thought that the human mind has ever been asked to handle. It is not easy; but it is true.

The doctrine springs from the facts that the New Testament historians report, and from the revelatory teaching that, humanly speaking, grew out of these facts. Jesus, who prayed to his Father and taught his disciples to do the same, convinced them that he was personally divine, and belief in his divinity and in the rightness of offering him worship and prayer is basic to New Testament faith (John 20:28-31; cf. 1:18; Acts 7:59; Rom. 9:5; 10:9-13; 2 Cor. 12:7-9; Phil. 2:5-6; Col. 1:15-17; 2:9; Heb. 1:1-12; 1 Pet. 3:15). Jesus promised to send another Paraclete (he himself having been the first one), and Paraclete signifies a many-sided personal ministry as counselor, advocate, helper, comforter, ally, supporter (John 14:16-17, 26; 15:26-27; 16:7-15). This other Paraclete, who came at Pentecost to fulfill this promised ministry, was the Holy Spirit, recognized from the start as a third divine person: to lie to him, said Peter not long after Pentecost, is to lie to God (Acts 5:3-4).

So Christ prescribed baptism "in the name (singular: one God, one name) of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit"—the three persons who are the one God to whom Christians commit themselves (Matt. 28:19). So we meet the three persons in the account of Jesus' own baptism: the Father acknowledged the Son, and the Spirit showed his presence in the Son's life and ministry (Mark 1:9-11). So we read the trinitarian blessing of 2 Corinthians 13:14, and the prayer for grace and peace from the Father, the Spirit, and Jesus Christ in Revelation 1:4-5 (would John have put the Spirit between the Father and the Son if he had not regarded the Spirit as divine in the same sense as they are?). These are some of the more striking examples of the trinitarian outlook and emphasis of the New Testament. Though the technical language of historic trinitarianism is not found there, trinitarian faith and thinking are present throughout its pages, and in that sense the Trinity must be acknowledged as a biblical doctrine: an eternal truth about God which, though never explicit in the Old Testament, is plain and clear in the New.

The basic assertion of this doctrine is that the unity of the one God is complex. The three personal "subsistences" (as they are called) are coequal and coeternal centers of self-awareness, each being "I" in relation to two who are "you" and each partaking of the full divine essence (the "stuff" of deity, if we may dare to call it that) along with the other two. They are not three roles played by one person (that is modalism), nor are they three gods in a cluster (that is tritheism); the one God ("he") is also, and equally, "they," and "they" are always together and always cooperating, with the Father initiating, the Son complying, and the Spirit executing the will of both, which is his will also. This is the truth about God that was revealed through the words and works of Jesus, and that undergirds the reality of salvation as the New Testament sets it forth.

The practical importance of the doctrine of the Trinity is that it requires us to pay equal attention, and give equal honor, to all three persons in the unity of their gracious ministry to us. That ministry is the subject matter of the gospel, which, as Jesus' conversation with Nicodemus shows, cannot be stated without bringing in their distinct roles in God's plan of grace (John 3:1-15; note especially vv. 3, 5-8, 13-15, and John's expository comments, which NIV renders as part of the conversation itself, vv. 16-21). All non-Trinitarian formulations of the Christian message are by biblical standards inadequate and indeed fundamentally false, and will naturally tend to pull Christian lives out of shape.

(Concise Theology: A Guide to Historic Christian Beliefs.)

__________________________________________________

The Christian BBS is an inter-denominational ministry, however, we are a Christian ministry. While we encourage every believer to study scripture for him or herself and to question and seek answers, we must draw a line at some point as to what we find acceptable in the teachings on our board. We have outlined the basic beliefs of Christianity, the non-negotiable factors of our faith at http://www.christian-chats.net/statement.htm

"There is but one God, eternally existent in three persons: The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit."

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GISMYS13A:
Jesus says= "I and My Father are One." Immediately the religious authorities wanted to stone him. He asked them which of his good works caused them to want to kill him. They replied, "We are not stoning you for any of these but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God." John 10:30-33


NEUTRALZONE:
I've read that account quite a few times. What I got from reading it is that the Jewish religious leaders were twisting Jesus' words as a means of rejecting him as the Messiah.


Scripture does not contradict itself. The Bible is infallible. So it is no surprise that within the very same book of John, we are shown what Jesus meant when he stated: "I and My Father are one."


Are you interested in seeing the verses where such clarification is given?

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clark
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One of my favorites is when Jesus says " I am" which brought wrath upon the people because God told Moses when he ask for His name said "I am".

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God's word is truth

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GISMYS13A
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God the Father,Son and Holyspirit!GENESIS 1:26=And God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, after Our likeness==When God says ""US AND OUR"" will make man, I have no question who He is talking about. and you?==REALLY? Who does not understand that it is God who is ""US and our"" making man? ===== Angels make no one!!!

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GISMYS13A

Posts: 68 | From: usa | Registered: Mar 2013  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
GISMYS13A
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Jesus says= "I and My Father are One." Immediately the religious authorities wanted to stone him. He asked them which of his good works caused them to want to kill him. They replied, "We are not stoning you for any of these but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God." John 10:30-33 ==only God has the power to give eternal life=
John 10:28 Jesus says==
I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. Jesus said to Thomas, "Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe." Thomas replied, "My Lord and my God!" John 20:7==
JESUS IS GOD, "YAHWEH"
John 1:3, "Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made."
Col. 1:16-17, "For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together."

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GISMYS13A

Posts: 68 | From: usa | Registered: Mar 2013  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator


 
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