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Betty Louise
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John I am still confused on those issues. I have only come to the conclusion of leaving those questions to God. I believe what is important is salvation by the grace of God.

Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

Posts: 3839 | From: Houston, Texas | Registered: May 2008  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Carol Swenson
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Hi John 6:44. I think before we can answer questions about election and so on, we need to understand the answers to two other questions.

Genesis 1:26 (NASB)
26 Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth."

Why did God create man to rule over His creation after God had already determined that His creation was good? Why would His creation need to be ruled by anyone except God Himself?

And why did God put the tree of the knowledge of good and evil in the garden within reach of Adam and Eve? They were told not to eat from it, but why was it even there?

To me, the answers to these questions give us a great deal of insight into the answers to the others.

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I was looking at this question and thinking on all the lengthy discussions that have been part of on this board in years past on each of these topics and it occurs to me that my answer to every one of them is summed up in this:

Two truths exist:
GOD is GOD- omnipotent, omnipresent, and omniscient. His will is perfect and HIS WILL will be done because HE IS GOD.

I am not GOD.


--Election - God has Elected whom he has elected for his purpose which is made manifest in His time.

--Predestination - God who is sovereign has predestined whom he wills, for the destiny of his will to be made manifest as HE wills, when he wills.

--God's sovereignity vs man's will- Man's will can only be exorcized within the scope of its existence within the perfect will of GOD. God is Sovereign that is what it is to be GOD.

--limited or unlimited atonement - The blood of Christ has atoned for the sin of the world. It is sufficient. Those who will accept it are those who will lay down man's will and accept God's will, acknowledging that HE alone is GOD and man is not.

--man's depravity - Man is separated from God by sin; Man is gathered into GOD by GOD.

--irresistable grace or effectual calling - God is sovereign and his calling is effectual and his grace is irresistible when and if he wills it to be.

The trouble with all this debate over the soundness of Calvinism or Arminianism is this: God is either sovereign or he is not. GOD IS GOD and thus he is Sovereign. If we accept this- then the rest of this is just so much bunk meant to distract us from the important question - do you think GOD is GOD or do you think man is?

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John 6:44
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--God's sovereignity vs man's will
--limited or unlimited atonement
--man's depravity
--irresistable grace or effectual calling

I don't expect everyone to answer all of these in one post, so please pick out one, two, or however many you want, and respond to them. I promise to be very civil. Thanks in advance!

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Jer. 29:11 For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, saith the LORD, thoughts of peace, and not of evil, to give you an expected end.

12 Then shall ye call upon me, and ye shall go and pray unto me, and I will hearken unto you.

Posts: 6 | From: Crum, WVa | Registered: Feb 2011  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator

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