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Topic: Angels, or men?
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Carol Swenson
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Excellent WildB!
G743 αρχαγγελος , αρχαγγελου, ὁ (from αρχι, which see, and αγγελος), a Biblical and ecclesiastical word, “archangel,” i.e. chief of the angels (Hebrew שַׂר chief, prince, Daniel 10:20; 12:1), or one of the princes and leaders of the angels (הָרִאשֹׁנִיםהַשָּׁרִים, Daniel 10:13): 1 Thessalonians 4:16; Jude 1:9.
Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament
Not chief "messenger".
If a mighty archangel has respect for celestial powers, how much more so should we?
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WildB
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Michael is of the same rank of authority as the devil, and how did he respond?
Jude 1:9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.
![[cool_shades]](graemlins/cool_shades.gif)
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That is all.....
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Carol Swenson
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All the children of God are those who have a SPIRITUAL reverence for God. It is the spiritual that matters, not the physical. We will be like angels in that we will be immortal and not procreate, and we are also like the holy angels in our reverence and obedience to Christ. All of the redeemed who live in Heaven now, before the resurrection, are spiritual beings, not physical.
But in view of the physical, Adam was created from the earth to have a physical body. Even Christ was born of a human woman on the earth to have a physical body. When we are resurrected, it is our physical earth bodies that are resurrected, however transformed. It does not logically follow that beings who existed before the earth was even created would have physical bodies unless they are from another planet.
Job 38:4-7 (NASB)
4 "Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth? Tell Me, if you have understanding, 5 Who set its measurements? Since you know. Or who stretched the line on it? 6 "On what were its bases sunk? Or who laid its cornerstone, 7 When the morning stars sang together And all the sons of God shouted for joy?
If immortal physical sons of God existed before the earth was made, where did they live? If they lived in Heaven as immortal physical men, what planet were their bodies made from and why weren't they living on that planet? Are angels really aliens?
Adam (therefore all of mankind) was made from the elements, the dust, of the earth to live on the earth. Why aren't those other immortal physical men living on their world? Has the creation of man in God's image, the plan of redemption, and the suffering and resurrection of Christ all been played out before on another planet? After we are resurrected, will we help other men on yet another planet?
Will we become "ministering spirits, sent out to render service for the sake of those who will inherit salvation?" Will we become spirits and flames of fire? Why would God resurrect our bodies if He is going to turn us into spirits?
Or were these immortal physical men simply created out of nothing along with the universe, and only earth man was created from the earth so Christ could suffer and the redeemed could be resurrected to live with the other immortal physical men who were created out of nothing and did not need to be redeemed?
Why would Christ need to be born of a woman, become a man, and suffer and die for man, if God had already created immortal physical men who did not need redemption?
In scripture, angels sometimes appeared as men. That does not mean that they ARE men. God appeared as a burning bush. Shall we believe He really IS a bush?
WHAT ARE ANGELS ACCORDING TO THE BIBLE?
Angels are created beings. They are an entirely separate type of creature from humans. People do not become angels after death, and angels do not become human. They are as different from us as we are from the animals. Angels are intelligent beings (Matthew 8:29; 2 Corinthians 11:3; 1 Peter 1:12), they are emotional beings (Luke 2:13; James 2:19; Revelation 12:17), and each has an individual personality and will (Luke 8:28-31; 2 Timothy 2:26; Jude 6). Angels are spirit beings (Hebrews 1:14) and do not have physical bodies.
Both good and evil angels are created beings, and they do not have limitless knowledge (Matthew 24:36). They cannot be everywhere at once, and they are not as powerful as God. Satan (Lucifer) is still just an angel – he is nowhere near as powerful as God. However, angels are much more powerful than human beings and possess greater knowledge. Angels understand the Bible and the world, and they believe in the prophecies of God (James 2:19; Revelation 12:12). Even the fallen angels, who hate God, are not atheists; they know that God exists. Angels also understand humanity very well. They do not have to study the past, for they have experienced it. There are a limited number of angels, and they do not reproduce. The angels created at the beginning of time are still with God, and the demons that fell at the beginning are still fallen.
Because of their longevity, we can assume that they have much greater knowledge and understanding of God and humanity than we do. In the case of fallen angels, or demons, we have no hope of winning arguments with them unless we use the Scripture to combat their lies. By depending on flawed and limited human understanding, we will fail every time.
Angels, like all created beings, are subject to the will of God. The good angels are mobilized by God to come to the aid of believers (Hebrews 1:14). They do many other things as well, including praising and worshiping Him (Psalm 148:1-2; Isaiah 6:3; Hebrews 1:6; Revelation 5:8-13). The angels rejoice in God's works and they serve Him (Job 38:6-7; Psalm 103:20; Revelation 22:9). They stand before God in His presence (Job 1:6, 2:1). They proclaim God's judgments (Revelation 7:1, 8:2). They minister to humans and sometimes bring answers to prayers (Acts 12:5-10, 8:26, 10:3). They watch Christians' work and sufferings (1 Corinthians 4:9, 11:10; Ephesians 3:10; 1 Peter 1:12). They encourage (Acts 27:23-24), and they care for believers when they die (Luke 16:22).
Interestingly, the Bible never says that angels are created in God's image, as humans are (Genesis 1:26), though it appears that they can take on physical form (Genesis 6:4, 19:1). The most important things we can learn from the holy angels is their submission to God (1 Corinthians 11:10) and their right view of Him (Isaiah 6:3).
http://www.compellingtruth.org/angels-Bible.html
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Bloodbought
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quote:
Originally posted by scythewieldor:
[QUOTE] Ge 19:1 And there came two angels to Sodom at even; and Lot sat in the gate of Sodom: and Lot seeing them rose up to meet them; and he bowed himself with his face toward the ground;
However, these deputies were men in the previous chapter.
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Gen 18:2 And he lift up his eyes and looked, and, lo, three men stood by him: and when he saw them, he ran to meet them from the tent door, and bowed himself toward the ground,
Here is a good sermon audio message on the subject of angels.
http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=911111826352&logos=1
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scythewieldor
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Genesis 2:7-24 is the account of how God changed Adam (called a son of God in Luke 3:38) from one physical being into a male and a female by taking a rib out of Adam, and, making Eve from it.
There was enough time between the time that God used His great power to turn dirt into Adam to the time He turned a rib of Adam into Eve for God to: - plant a garden in Eden,
- watch trees grow to fruition,
- bring all the creatures to Adam,
- see what Adam would call them, and,
- decide that, among the animals, not one was suited to be a help meet for Adam.
In the end, Adam was never married to Eve. She was, always, his own flesh and bone. She was always a part of himself - even before she was formed.
- Since God chose to call Adam (a created being with a physical body that had ribs) a son of God, and,
- Since Adam was created with a body that had the capacity to stay alive forever, and,
- Since the resurrected Lord Jesus Christ had a physical body that could be seen and touched by the apostles
we must accept that the class of being called 'sons of God' had physical bodies with the same ability to live forever that resurrected men will have. This being true, we know that the sons of God mentioned in Job had physical bodies that were still alive when the need for salvation rose over Adam's kind.
Since the sons of God existed before Seth existed, the sons of God can not be Seth's offspring.
It is more profitable to study scripture as one who has a relationship with the Person who is the Word of God than it is to have relationship with theologians.
quote:
Rev 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
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Carol Swenson
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That post sounds defensive and insulting. Are you angry about something?
Posts: 6787 | From: Colorado | Registered: Dec 2007
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scythewieldor
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Someone might have this attitude:
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If you had known about the YLT before yesterday, you would have been using it for the past several days to prove your point about messengers.
The fact is I've been reading the Bible for 50 years. A few years ago, I developed a trust for the YLT. However, I taught myself how to read Greek 20 years ago. In 1981, the NASB was my fave version. However, subsequent NASB editions have wandered from translation to biased interpretation.
I use the KJV because it's a pretty good translation, I know where most of the 'gotchas' are, many people are offended by other versions, and, (after 5 decades of reading it) it's the one I know.
Some people may say:
quote:
The word 'messenger' can mean prophet, apostle, pastor, angel, or anyone who delivers a message.
I say that, in fact. It is only by the choice and power of God that anyone can carry a message for Him. The use of the word "angel" in an interpretation of the Bible tells us nothing more than the bias of the interpreter. The Old and New Testament words interpreted 'angel' means deputy, ambassador, or messenger.
In other words, it is a position to which one is appointed by one of greater authority.
Here's an example:
quote:
Ge 19:1 And there came two angels to Sodom at even; and Lot sat in the gate of Sodom: and Lot seeing them rose up to meet them; and he bowed himself with his face toward the ground;
However, these deputies were men in the previous chapter.
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Gen 18:2 And he lift up his eyes and looked, and, lo, three men stood by him: and when he saw them, he ran to meet them from the tent door, and bowed himself toward the ground,
16 ¶ And the men rose up from thence, and looked toward Sodom: and Abraham went with them to bring them on the way.
22 And the men turned their faces from thence, and went toward Sodom: but Abraham stood yet before the LORD.
In fact, Hebrews let's us know that messengers were turned into spirits by God.
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Heb 1:7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.
So, before God made His messengers spirits, what were they?
Some might think this:
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You have said that to call angels spiritual beings means that they are scary, ghostly things.
What I said was that to call messengers angels is to try to keep control of the ignorant by making angels scary ghosty things. They are not. Even more, the Holy Spirit is not an angel. The Holy Spirit is a person of the Godhead who comforts the Disciples of Christ.)
One might want to pretend to addres a statement of mine only to go back to talking about their false understanding of things. Here's an example:
quote:
quote:Then, all the attributes of the sons of God mentioned in Job will be attributes of the adopted sons of God in the resurrection.
We will be like angels only in that we will be immortal and do not procreate. Man was created in the image of God. Nowhere in scripture does it say that angels were created in the image of God. Fallen man can be redeemed, fallen angels cannot be redeemed. Man is justified, adopted, sanctified, resurrected and glorified. Angels are not.
I would expect that, after referencing one of my statements, one would, either, say the felt I was right or I was wrong.
One might think that referencing one of the interpretations I have, long since, discounted because of unjustifiable bias when compared with original languages (though, getting more relevant to drifting religious interests) is relevant to my position. Ha.
Because all men except Jesus have sinned, all men were dead, and, therefore, impossibly prevented from being little 'h' he-s in Hebrews 2. Only because Christ lived without sin, and, thus, pleased His Father are any resurrected. The second witness to my position is this:
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1 Co 15:27-28 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
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Carol Swenson
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quote:
Since YLT is one of my most trusted translations, let's look at what it says.
That may be true now, but I don't think you even knew about the YLT before yesterday. If you had, you would have been using it for the past several days to prove your point about messengers.
The word 'messenger' can mean prophet, apostle, pastor, angel, or anyone who delivers a message. The use of the word 'angel' tells us specifically what kind of messenger the verse is referring to.
You have said that to call angels spiritual beings means that they are scary, ghostly things. You will have an extremely difficult time trying to convince anyone on this board that the Holy Spirit is a scary, ghostly thing, or that God Himself is, who is Spirit. Angels are also spirits, although created rather than eternal.
quote:
Then, all the attributes of the sons of God mentioned in Job will be attributes of the adopted sons of God in the resurrection.
We will be like angels only in that we will be immortal and do not procreate. Man was created in the image of God. Nowhere in scripture does it say that angels were created in the image of God. Fallen man can be redeemed, fallen angels cannot be redeemed. Man is justified, adopted, sanctified, resurrected and glorified. Angels are not.
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Do you agree that there are messengers whose first estate was heavenly?
If you use Thayer’s Greek-English lexicon, you will see that the word “estate” is referring to a duty, not a place. Those angels stopped obeying God and followed Satan in his rebellion. They did not leave Heaven, they were cast out.
Concerning Hebrews 2:5-11:
The NASB uses a small ‘h’ in ‘him’ when referring to man, and a capital ‘H’ when referring to Christ. This helps clarify the meaning of the passage.
Hebrews 2:8-9 (NASB)
8 YOU HAVE PUT ALL THINGS IN SUBJECTION UNDER HIS FEET." For in subjecting all things to him, He left nothing that is not subject to him. But now we do not yet see all things subjected to him.
9 But we do see Him who was made for a little while lower than the angels, namely, Jesus, because of the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, so that by the grace of God He might taste death for everyone.
Christ's humanity enabled Him to regain man's lost dominion (vv. 5-9). The quotation here is from Psalm 8:4-6, and you will want to read that entire psalm carefully. When God created the first man and woman, He gave them dominion over His Creation (Gen. 1:26-31). David marveled that God would share His power and glory with feeble man! Man was created "a little lower than the angels" (and therefore inferior to them), but man was given privileges far higher than the angels. God never promised the angels that they would reign in "the world to come" (Heb. 2:5).
But we have a serious problem here, for it is obvious that man today is not exercising dominion over creation. Certainly man cannot control the fish, fowl, or animals. In fact, man has a hard time controlling himself! "But now we see not yet all things put under him" (Heb. 2:8).
"But we see Jesus!" (Heb. 2:9) He is God's answer to man's dilemma. Jesus Christ became man that He might suffer and die for man's sin and restore the dominion that was lost because of sin. When our Lord was here on earth, He exercised that lost dominion. He had dominion over the fish (see Matt. 17:24-27; Luke 5:1-11; John 21:1-11), over the fowl (Luke 22:34, 60), and over the wild beasts (Mark 1:12-13), and the domesticated beasts (Mark 11:1-7). As the last Adam (1 Cor. 15:45), Jesus Christ regained man's lost dominion. Today, everything is under His feet (Eph. 1:20-23).
Man was "crowned... with glory and honor" (Heb. 2:7, NASB), but he lost his crown and became the slave of sin. Jesus Christ has regained that "glory and honor" (Heb. 2:9), and believers today share His kingly dominion (Rev. 1:5-6). One day, when He establishes His kingdom, we shall reign with Him in glory and honor. Jesus Christ did all of this for us—for lost sinners—because of "the grace of God" (Heb. 2:9). If He had not become man, He could not have died and "taste[d] death [experienced death] for every man" (Heb. 2:9). It is true that angels cannot die; but it is also true that angels cannot save lost sinners and restore man's lost dominion.
Bible Exposition Commentary - Be Confident (Hebrews).
Jesus became a man to redeem man and to restore man's dominion of the earth. Jesus did not become an angel to redeem angels.
During His earthly ministry, Jesus cast demons out of people and He defeated Satan on the cross. He did not redeem fallen angels, He cast them out.
I love the holy angels of God, but I love them as the wonderful, glorious spiritual beings they are. Man was created from the earth, to live on earth and have dominion on earth. Both angels and men were created by God, are subject to the will of God, and both will be immortal, but angels and men are not the same kind of creature.
Apples grow high on a tree. Potatoes grow in the ground. They are both food, they are both good, but they are not the same. Could God turn potatoes into apples? Of course He could. But He created them both to be different things, not the same. If they were immortal, then they would be forever apples and forever potatoes.
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scythewieldor
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I believe in the Jesus who was the Word of God from the beginning, became flesh, and, as flesh, was the begotten (not, adopted) Son of God with whom God was well pleased.
Think about that.
Every single word that came out of the mouth of the God who can not lie: that's what Jesus was in the flesh.
That means that Jesus knew the definition of the first occurrence of the phrase 'sons of God'. That knowledge was, actually, a part of Jesus Christ. So, knowing that, I see this passage differently from some who think the Bible was written by men who were just guessing at the meaning of things they heard or read. quote:
Luke 20:35-36 But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage: Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.
Since YLT is one of my most trusted translations, let's look at what it says.
quote:
Luk 20:35-36 but those accounted worthy to obtain that age, and the rising again that is out of the dead, neither marry, nor are they given in marriage; for neither are they able to die any more — for they are like messengers — and they are sons of God, being sons of the rising again.
Young doesn't confuse issues by resorting to uninspired words like 'angel'.
Now, let's look at the Greek.
quote:
οὐδὲ γὰρ ἀποθανεῖν ἔτι δύνανται, ἰσάγγελοι γάρ εἰσιν, καὶ υἱοί εἰσιν θεοῦ τῆς ἀναστάσεως υἱοὶ ὄντες.
I'd like to draw attention to the the Greek word translated "like messengers": ἰσάγγελοι / isaggeloi.
quote:
Strong's Concordance
isaggelos: equal to angels
Original Word: ἰσάγγελος, ον
Part of Speech: Adjective
Transliteration: isaggelos
Phonetic Spelling: (ee-sang'-el-los)
Short Definition: like the angels
Definition: equal to or like the angels.
The ἰσ- part of isaggeloi is a contraction of ἰσοσ. It means 'the same as'. Here's an instance of the use of ἰσοσ.
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Joh 5:18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.
Jesus made himself equal to God - which, as the Word of God, He was.
My point is that ἰσοσ is used as a word distinct from theos, in this passage. Yet, the literalness of "equal with God" was enough to infuriate the Jews.
ἰσάγγελοι is not two different word that compose a phrase the interpretation of which might be considered flexible. No; it's a single word with only one possible meaning. Literally, it is messenger-equal. Since a word is being rendered, here, - not a phrase - it can not be translated "similar to messengers in this limited way".
quote:
Mat 22:30 ἐν γὰρ τῇ ἀναστάσει οὔτε γαμοῦσιν οὔτε γαμίζονται, ἀλλ’ ὡς ἄγγελοι ἐν τῷ οὐρανῷ εἰσιν.
This shows us that there are messengers of God in heaven.
quote:
Jude 6 ἀγγέλους τε τοὺς μὴ τηρήσαντας τὴν ἑαυτῶν ἀρχὴν ἀλλὰ ἀπολιπόντας τὸ ἴδιον οἰκητήριον εἰς κρίσιν μεγάλης ἡμέρας δεσμοῖς ἀϊδίοις ὑπὸ ζόφον τετήρηκεν·
This shows us that God is keeping some messengers in chains eternal under darkness.
Do you agree that there are messengers whose first estate was heavenly?
Do you agree that that some messengers that left there first estate, and, are, now, in chains eternal under darkness?
Do you agree that the resurrected man will be ἰσάγγελοι with the messengers in heaven?
Do you agree that Jesus is the Word of God to whom was known the definition of the class of beings known as 'sons of God' as that phrase was used in Job?
Do you believe that Jesus changed the definition of that phrase in order to apply it to resurrected men?
If Jesus didn't change the meaning of the phrase 'sons of God', then the sons of God we read about in Job were as immortal as the resurrected men will be. If that's true, they are still alive.
They can never be killed.
If you believe in a Jesus who makes up the stuff He says rather than the Jesus who says only what He hears His Father say, we don't believe in the same Jesus.
If the Father:
- makes a class of things,
- gives that class certain attributes,
- calls that class 'sons of God', and,
- is One with whom is no variableness, or shadow of turning,
then, all the attributes of the sons of God mentioned in Job will be attributes of the adopted sons of God in the resurrection.
That's how great the power of God is. God can take dirt and make a man of it. Adopting a man and placing him among the sons of God with the full attribution of that class of beings is no problem with God.
If God can:- turn dirt into a man,
- resurrect a dead man, and,
- make a resurrected man a son of God that can not die,
what makes you think He can't use a son of God as a messenger to the men he wants to save and resurrect?
Now, Jesus, Himself, is the begotten Son of God. He is not an adopted son. He is the heir of all things. All those who are placed in the class of beings called 'sons of God' are under Him - whether messengers or adopted sons of the resurrection.
quote:
Heb 2:5-11 For not to messengers did He subject the coming world, concerning which we speak, and one in a certain place did testify fully, saying, ‘What is man, that Thou art mindful of him, or a son of man, that Thou dost look after him? Thou didst make him some little less than messengers, with glory and honour Thou didst crown him, and didst set him over the works of Thy hands, all things Thou didst put in subjection under his feet,’ for in the subjecting to him the all things, nothing did He leave to him unsubjected, and now not yet do we see the all things subjected to him, and him who was made some little less than messengers we see — Jesus — because of the suffering of the death, with glory and honour having been crowned, that by the grace of God for every one he might taste of death. For it was becoming to Him, because of whom [are] the all things, and through whom [are] the all things, many sons to glory bringing, the author of their salvation through sufferings to make perfect, for both he who is sanctifying and those sanctified [are] all of one, for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,
The coming world was not subjected to messengers; it was subjected to Jesus. Do you think the sons of the resurrection will not be subject to Jesus like the messengers?
Of course, they will.
Will the sons of the resurrection judge messengers? Yes. Which messengers will we judge? We will judge the messengers Jude says are kept in chains eternal under darkness to a judgement of a great day.
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Carol Swenson
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The future life with God is not a mere continuation of the present life only on "a higher scale." We will maintain our identities and know each other, but there will be no more death-hence, no need for marriage and procreation. Christians do not become angels. In heaven we will share the image of Jesus Christ and be much higher than the angels (1 John 3:2). Angels appear in Scripture as men, but they are spirit beings without sexuality. It is in this regard that we will be like them; there will be no marriage or childbearing in heaven.
Do you not know that we will judge angels? (1 Corinthians 6:3)
scythewieldor, these articles may upset you but that is not my intention. I just hope you will think about what Gnosticism is, and ask yourself if you really want to go that way.
Genesis 6:1-4. Who Married the Daughters of Men?
Few texts in the history of interpretation have aroused more curiosity and divergence of opinion than Genesis 6:1-4. It is at once tantalizing and deeply puzzling.
What is most difficult is the identification of the main participants in this short narrative—the "sons of God," the "daughters of men" and the "Nephilim" (or "giants"). An impressive array of scholars has lined up for each of the three major positions taken on the identification of these three groups of participants. The three positions may be labeled "the cosmologically mixed races view" (angels and humans), "the religiously mixed races view" (godly Sethites and worldly Cainites) and "the sociologically mixed races view" (despotic male aristocrats and beautiful female commoners).
By all odds, the view that may perhaps claim the greatest antiquity is the cosmologically mixed races, or the angel theory, view. The pseudepigraphal and noncanonical 1 Enoch, dating from around 200 B.C., claims in Genesis 6:1-7:6 that two hundred angels in heaven, under the leadership of Semayaz, noticed that the humans had unusually beautiful daughters. These they desired for themselves, so they took a mutual oath to go down to earth together, and each took a wife. They taught these wives magical medicine, incantations, the cutting of roots and the care of plants. When the women became pregnant, they gave birth to giants that reached three hundred cubits. The giants in turn consumed all the food, thereby arousing the deep hatred of the earthlings. The giants turned to devouring the people along with the birds, wild beasts, reptiles and fish. Then it was that the earth, having had enough of these huge bullies, brought an accusation against them.
The famous Jewish historian Josephus (born 37 B.C.) also appears to follow this angel theory. He wrote, "Many angels accompanied with women, and begat sons that proved unjust" (Antiquities 1.3.1). Likewise, the Greek translation of the Bible of the third century B.C. reads "angels of God" for the phrase "sons of God" in Genesis 6:2. In spite of the antiquity of the cosmologically mixed races view, there are such overwhelming problems with it that it is not recommended as the solution to this problem. While it is true, of course, that the term "sons of God" does occur in Job 1:6, Job 2:1 and Job 38:7 with the meaning "angels" (and that the phrase "sons of the mighty" appears in Psalm 29:1 and Psalm 89:7 with the meaning "angels"), it does not fit well here for several reasons.
Nowhere else in Scripture are we told that angels married humans. In fact, our Lord specifically stated that angels do not marry (Mark 12:25). And though the Septuagint translated the expression as being equivalent to "angels," it is in fact only the Alexandrian manuscript that does so. The critical edition by Alfred Rahlfs does not reflect the angelic interpretation.
Even more serious is the problem of why judgment should fall on the humans and on the earth if the angels of heaven were the cause of the trouble. God should have flooded heaven, not earth. The culprits came from above; the women seem to have been doing nothing except being beautiful!
Some, however, will appeal to the New Testament passages of 1 Peter 3:18-20, 2 Peter 2:4 and Jude 6-7 for further support of the angel theory. But these passages do not say anything about angelic marriages. To argue from the phrase "in a similar way" in Jude 7 that the sin of Sodom and Gomorrah is the same as the sin of Genesis 6:1-4 claims too much, for the sin of sodomy is not the same thing as marrying a wife from another part of the universe! In fact, "in a similar way" does not compare the sin of the angels with the sin of the men of Sodom and Gomorrah; instead, it compares the sin of Sodom and Gomorrah with the sins of "the cities about them" (that is, Admah and Zeboiim; see Deut. 29:23 and Hosea 11:8). Thus the sins of Jude's angels (Jude 6) and the sins of the five cities of the plain (Jude 7) are held up as warnings of the judgment that could come to others. The fall of the angels that Jude mentions is that which took place when Lucifer fell. To connect this fall with the time of the flood because of the proximity of the references in Jude 4-7 would demand that we connect the flood with the overthrow of the five cities of the plain. But the events listed in Jude are successive, not simultaneous: (1) the fall in eternity of Satan (Jude 4), (2) the preaching of Noah prior to the flood (Jude 5) and (3) the overthrow of Sodom and Gomorrah (Jude 6).
To allege that "giants" were the results of such sexual unions is once again to go beyond any data we possess in Scripture. Did the angels procreate without the use of natural bodies? Or did they already possess natural bodies? Or did they create for themselves natural bodies by the use of some mysterious, intrinsic, but rebellious power? Any and all answers to such questions would be purely speculative. To use extracanonical evidence such as 1 Enoch as a witness against or even for Scripture would be unprecedented.
[Another] line of evidence concerns the nepilîm / gibbôrīm of Genesis 6:4. The word nepilîm occurs only here and in Numbers 13:33, where it refers to the Anakim, who were people of great stature. The root meaning of the word nepilîm is "to fall." However in Genesis 6:4 the nepilîm are associated with the term gibbôrīm. The word gibbôrīm comes from gibbôr meaning "a mighty man of valor, strength, wealth or power." Nimrod, in Genesis 10:8, was such a gibbôr. He also was clearly a king in the land of Shinar. Hence the meaning of nepilîm / gibbôrīm is not "giants," but something more like "princes," "aristocrats" or "great men."
Genesis 6:1-4, therefore, is best understood as depicting ambitious, despotic and autocratic rulers seizing both women and power in an attempt to gain all the authority and notoriety they could from those within their reach. Their progeny were, not surprisingly, adversely affected, and so it was that God was grieved over the increased wickedness on planet Earth. Every inclination of the hearts and thoughts of humanity was evil. Thus the flood had to come to judge humankind for the perversion of authority, the state, justice and human sexuality.
(From: Hard Sayings of the Bible)
Gnostic Mysticism and the Nephillim
A lot of the basis for the Nephilim teachings are extra-biblical and primarily are focused on the book of Enoch. Let us consider first that the book of Enoch has never been a part of canonical scripture. It wasn’t listed by the Jews in the Old Testament and I believe largely because it did not exist until the rise of Gnosticism that we see at the advent of Christianity.
New Agers, Luciferians and other occultists use the book of Enoch to indoctrinate the unsuspecting into occult mysticism.
Who were the Gnostics? To put it simply the Gnostics were the first Qaballists to incorporate Christian themes, which were in turn perverted to suit their own beliefs. This they then combined with Greek mythology. What they produced was highly heretical literature that would be the first established beliefs in what would later be termed as luciferianism. Many of their writings perverted the deity of Christ and sovereignty of God, in fact making God the villain who was ejected from heaven and Lucifer the maligned and misunderstood hero and true reigning god.
You can see how at the outset Gnosticism completely abandons salvation through Jesus Christ, and places it solely in the hands of the practitioner to somehow obtain salvation through magical means. You could not possibly get any more occultic than this.
Full article
http://kimolsen.wordpress.com/2011/11/23/gnostic-mysticism-and-the-nephillim-part-1/
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Carol Swenson
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◾The Greek text of Luk 20:36 says of men who are counted worthy of the resurrection "angels indeed they are, and sons are of God". (The original language removes the confusion.)
To just copy the interlinear without understanding the vocabulary and grammar behind it is silly. The Greek word for "angels" in this verse is isaggelos which means like or equal to angels. The word used for "indeed" is gar which means for, indeed, because, and can mean other things as well. That's why English translations read "for they are like the angels", or "because they are like angels", or "equal to angels".
quote:
As Jesus told us, sons of God and angels are the same.
Jesus never said that. I looked at every verse in the New Testament with the expression 'sons of God' and every verse with the word 'angel'. Jesus never once said that angels are sons of God.
In the New Testament, believers, not angels, are called sons of God.
Matthew 5:9
"Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God.
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Luke 20:36
for they cannot even die anymore, because they are like angels, and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection.
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Romans 8:14
For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.
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Romans 8:19
For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God.
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Galatians 3:26
For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.
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Galatians 4:6
Because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying, "Abba! Father!"
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scythewieldor
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When angels are discussed, the dialog is ensconced in assumptions regarding the nature of angels. It is clear that angels can appear in dreams and visions, and, that, in such cases, they have no flesh. Let's see what else the Bible says about angels.
What the New Covenant tells us about angels
quote:
Mat 22:29-30 Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God. For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.
Luk 20:34-36 And Jesus answering said unto them, The children of this world marry, and are given in marriage: But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage: Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the υἱοί/children of God being the children of the resurrection.
Jude 6-7 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day. Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
Heb 13:2 Be not forgetful to entertain strangers: for thereby some have entertained angels unawares.
Heb 1:14 Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?
- All angels are ministering spirits.
- Angels have a "first estate".
- Angels can leave their "first estate".
- Men can entertain strangers without knowing that those strangers are angels.
- Sodom and Gomorrha and the cities about them committed sins that were similar in manner to the ones committed by the angels that left their "first estate": namely, fornication, and going after strange flesh.
- The Greek text of Luk 20:36 says of men who are counted worthy of the resurrection "angels indeed they are, and sons are of God". (The original language removes the confusion.)
So, we learn that the power of God is able to make men as the angels of God in heaven and the sons of God. Now they can't be as both, angels and the sons of God, unless angels and sons of God are the same. Let us accept the point that they are made as the angels of God in heaven (i.e., not marrying, or being given in marriage) while remembering that there are angels which were cast out of heaven- angels who once were angels of God, but are no longer.
What the Old Covenant tells us about angels
In Genesis 19, we see that 2 angels went into Sodom. These 2 angels were called men when they visited Abraham in Genesis 18. The Sodomite men found them very sexually attractive. Hmm. Sodomites like angel flesh, and would have "known" them if the angels had let them. (Did you see that coming?) By this, we know that angels look like men when they come in the flesh.
In Genesis 32:24, Jacob received a blessing and the name, Israel, from a man he wrestled. In Genesis 48:16, Jacob called that man an angel.
Judges 6 tells us of Gideon's encounter with an angel of the Lord. It was not until the angel performed a miracle that Gideon knew he was not just a man.
In Judges 13, we see Manoah's wife encountering an angel of Lord whom she thought of as the man of God. She said that he had the countenance of an angel. However, Manoah didn't recognize it.
Here are solid witnesses that angels can take the form of men without anyone knowing it. (There is a witness, too, that corrupt humans can find angels sexually attractive.)
Sons of God Married Daughters of Adam's Race
The Bible teaches that the sons of God married daughters of Adam's race. As Jesus told us, sons of God and angels are the same. Men that object to that teaching rely on the statement that angels are spiritual beings. They say that that means angels could not have used human form to procreate. In other words, the angels that were called men in the Bible were not really men.
To them, the Bible is not a reliable document. They have to fix it with their own assumptions about the power of God. In so doing, they're telling people that God didn't even know how to use a better word than 'man' when He had angels recorded as men in His inspired Word.
God's not that stupid. They should not blaspheme.
If God has the power to make resurrected men equal to the angels in heaven, you should assume that, when He called angels men, they must have been men.
Yes. Angels are (and, were) ministering spirits sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation. (That is the first estate of all angels.) And, in some cases, angels use a form not discernible from the form of men in the fulfillment of their first estate mission.
However, we know that there are angels that are not in heaven - angels that are not angels of God. Satan, who transforms into an angel of light was, himself, cast down.
Fallen angels are ones who left their first estate. They forsook their purpose of ministering for those who shall be heirs of salvation. By taking human form, and, then, cohabiting with the daughters of Adam, they expressed their opposition to the salvation of men, and, at the same time, produced offspring that bore the rebellion of the fallen angels in their (the offspring's) genes.
As men study the DNA of creatures, they have learned how to pinpoint chromosomes that determine specific behaviors - not, just, fleshly appearance. This gives a whole new insight to a condition addressed by the Bible as being born of the will of the flesh.
So, when Jesus said...
quote:
Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
..., we can see how effective the strategy of him who appears as an angel of light to corrupt Adam's seed, actually, was; for Jesus told those very same men, "I know that ye are Abraham's seed".
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