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Author
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Topic: Election
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Bloodbought
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posted
Total depravity doesn’t mean loss of free will. It means to be without the ability to new-birth one’s self and bring one’s self into a right relationship with God. When Paul was converted he didn’t know to believe in Jesus. He didn’t even know whom it was that was speaking to him, until he asked the question “who art thou Lord.”
Jesus taught us the problem of sin by miracles and again we see two actions going on side-by-side in John 9, one by Jesus and the other by a man who was born blind. He couldn’t see. He was groping in the dark. This is the spiritual condition of all of humanity; all are born in the darkness of original sin.
John 9:1 And as Jesus passed by, he saw a man which was blind from his birth.
V2 Jesus disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind? Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him.
V6 Jesus spat on the ground, and made clay of the spittle, and he anointed the eyes of the blind man with the clay.
V7 And said Jesus unto him, Go, wash in the pool of Siloam, (which is by interpretation, Sent.) He went his way therefore, and washed, and came seeing.
Notice the words (which is by interpretation, Sent.)
This word “sent” implies a divine sending forth.
Was this man deprived? Well he was deprived of the ability to see, and we see that Jesus made the first move to give him sight, but he still had to believe in Jesus and “Go, wash in the pool of Siloam” as He said.
Did he have to do what Jesus said? Jesus didn’t physically force him to go and wash in the pool of Siloam, but he wanted to go and wash because of the irritation of the clay in his eyes.
We learn from this that God causes his elect to become convicted and irritated about their sin and that in turn causes them to do as He says and accept Christ as Lord and Savior and then they can see clearly where they are going.
So again, at what point does the new birth take place? Is it at the point of conviction, which is the work of God, or is it when we are divinely sent to wash in the blood of the Lamb?
I would say the latter. You quoted the verse "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved" Acts 16:31. There is no doubt that we must believe in the Lord Jesus to be saved and at that point we are born-again.
It's all of grace
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Carol Swenson
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You present a really good argument!
quote:
Now, here’s the question: did they choose God and then were born again, or were they born again and then chose God?
Faith is a gift from God. Free will is a gift from God. So are sunshine, food, the air we breathe, life itself. Just as everyone has the ability to love, so does everyone have the ability to believe. The question is who do we love, and who do we believe?
“And the Lord God commanded the man, ‘You are free (you have a choice) to eat from any tree in the garden; but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die.” Genesis 2:16-17.
God did not forbid Adam to eat the fruit from the tree and then turn right around and compel him to do that very thing. Adam sinned because God in His sovereignty created man with free will. Adam could choose to obey God or disobey God. The choice was his. God did not compel him to do either because if He did, there would be no choice. Eve and then Adam chose to believe a lie.
“And the Lord God said, ‘The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil.” Genesis 3:22.
God did not remove man's free will after his fall. Man knows good as well as evil. He is NOT totally depraved. I don't mean to suggest we know all that God knows. Far from it. But we know enough to make a choice. God didn't say "Man has now become like Satan, totally depraved." He said "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil."
“Choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve” Joshua 24:15.
People have always had faith in something. False Gods and false religions, science, evolution, or their microwave oven. In the Old Testament people needed to put their faith in the one true God; since the advent we need to put our faith in Christ Jesus. The writers of the New Testament were not calling to people without faith, but to people who had faith in Judaism, Greek gods, or Roman gods. We are called to put our faith only in Jesus.
“For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.” John 3:16.
Jesus didn’t say, ‘that whoever I compel to believe or whoever the Father compels to believe shall not perish but have eternal life.’
"Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved" Acts 16:31.
The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.” 2 Peter 3:9.
“This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself for all men” 1 Timothy 2:3-6.
These verses include everyone. It's true that none of us can save ourselves, but God is omnipresent and near to everyone who lives. The very moment a person chooses to believe in Christ, God the Holy Spirit is there with him to regenerate him, justify him, adopt him into the family of God.
To say a sinful, unrepentant, unbelieving person is born again and then compelled to believe goes against everything we know about God's relationship with men. Why would God not simply compel ALL people to believe in Christ?
To me the doctrine of election is as heartless as the theory of evolution. Millions and millions of discardable people, people who have no value except what they can do for themselves in this life. When in truth, every person is lovingly created by a remarkable Creator who wants to share His love with us. Millions of victims of Satan who are deceived into believing every kind of lie. Millions living in misery without hope. They're lost and blind and need our help, not our indifference.
quote:
Jesus said,
John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Jesus also said
John 12:32
“And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.”
Posts: 6787 | From: Colorado | Registered: Dec 2007
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Bloodbought
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Sinners need to be reborn, regenerated, and they can’t have that without a miracle. They can’t do anything to cause themselves to be born-again. All who are restored to a right relationship with God have been elected to receive the miracle of the new birth, to restore them from being dead to sin to being alive to God, so they can communicate with Him, believe Him, trust Him and worship Him in spirit and in truth. In the following verses we have two actions going on side-by-side, one by God and the other by man.
John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
John 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
It was those who believed in Jesus who received the right to become the children of God. They made a choice, a real choice to put their faith in Jesus Christ. Those who believed in Jesus made a choice to really believe in Jesus as the Son of God. So yes, we choose God. No doubt about it.
But something else has taken place. Those who believed in Jesus were born again. How? Not of blood, meaning not of any sort of natural birth. They also weren’t born again by the will of the flesh or the will of man. They weren’t born again because of anything they did. They absolutely could not cause themselves to be born again. Being born again is something that God and only God does.
Now, here’s the question: did they choose God and then were born again, or were they born again and then chose God?
A very helpful answer is found in Acts 16:14.
Acts 16:14 And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, heard us: whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul.
The Lord opened her heart to pay attention to what was said by Paul. In other words, God made her spiritually dead heart come alive so that she could hear and respond to the gospel message. No one can believe and decide to accept Christ without a work of grace in the heart.
Jesus said,
John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
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Carol Swenson
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SALVATION
GOD'S GIFT
What is the salvation that God offers us?
She will have a son, and you are to name him Jesus, for he will save his people from their sins. (Matthew 1:21)
Salvation is something we can never accomplish on our own. Jesus means "Savior." Jesus came to earth to save us because we can't save ourselves from sin and its consequences. No matter how good we are, we can't eliminate the sinful nature present in all of us. Only Jesus can do that. Jesus didn't come to help people save themselves; he came to be their Savior from the power and penalty of sin. Thank Christ for his death on the cross for your sin, and then ask him to take control of your life. Your new life begins at that moment.
Salvation is the assurance of God's presence within us. Jesus was to be called Immanuel ("God is with us"), as predicted by Isaiah the prophet (Isaiah 7:14). Jesus was God in the flesh; thus God was literally among us, "with us." Through the Holy Spirit, Christ is present today in the life of every believer. Perhaps not even Isaiah understood how far-reaching the meaning of Immanuel would be.
You can enter God's Kingdom only through the narrow gate. The highway to hell is broad, and its gate is wide for the many who choose the easy way. But the gateway to life is small, and the road is narrow, and only a few ever find it. (Matthew 7:13-14)
Salvation is a single plan. The gate that leads to eternal life (John 10:7-9) is called "narrow." This does not mean that it is difficult to become a Christian, but that there is only one road that leads to eternal life with God, and only a few decide to take it. Believing in Jesus is the only way to heaven, because he alone died for our sins and made us right before God. Living his way may not be popular, but it is true and right. Thank God there is one way!
Just as you can hear the wind but can't tell where it comes from or where it is going, so you can't explain how people are born of the Spirit. (John 3:8)
Salvation is a work done in our life by the Holy Spirit. Jesus explained that we cannot control the work of the Holy Spirit. He works in ways we cannot predict or understand. Just as you did not control your physical birth, so you cannot control your spiritual birth. It is a gift from God through the Holy Spirit (Ephes. 1:11-14; Ephes. 2:8-9).
Salvation is much more than just knowing about Jesus. This Jewish teacher of the Bible knew the Old Testament thoroughly, but he didn't understand what it said about the Messiah. Knowledge is not salvation. You should know the Bible, but even more important, you should understand the God whom the Bible reveals and the salvation that God offers.
Simon Peter replied, "Lord, to whom would we go? You alone have the words that give eternal life. We believe them, and we know you are the Holy One of God." (John 6:68-69)
Salvation is available only because of Christ. After many of Jesus' followers had deserted him, he asked the twelve disciples if they were also going to leave. Peter replied, "To whom would we go?" In his straightforward way, Peter answered for all of us—there is no other way. Though there are many philosophies and self-styled authorities, Jesus alone has the words of eternal life. People look everywhere for eternal life except to Christ, the only source. Stay with him, especially when you feel confused or alone.
Salvation is a matter of receiving or rejecting Christ. There is no middle ground with Jesus. When he asked the disciples if they would also leave, he was showing that they could either accept or reject him. Jesus was not trying to repel people with his teachings. He was simply telling the truth. The more the people heard Jesus' message, the more they divided into two camps: the honest seekers who wanted to understand more, and those who rejected Jesus because they didn't like what they heard.
God saved you by his special favor when you believed. And you can't take credit for this; it is a gift from God. Salvation is not a reward for the good things we have done, so none of us can boast about it. (Ephes. 2:8-9)
Salvation is a gift to be profoundly appreciated. When someone gives you a gift, do you say, "That's very nice—now how much do I owe you?" No, the appropriate response to a gift is "Thank you." Yet how often Christians, even after they have been given the gift of salvation, feel obligated to try to work their way to God. Because our salvation and even our faith are gifts, we should respond with gratitude, praise, and joy.
Salvation cannot be earned. We become Christians through God's unmerited grace, not as the result of any effort, ability, intelligent choice, or act of service on our part. However, out of gratitude for this free gift, we will seek to help and serve others with kindness, love, and gentleness, and not merely to please ourselves. While no action or work we do can help us obtain salvation, God's intention is that our salvation will result in acts of service. We are not saved merely for our own benefit, but to serve Christ and build up the church (Ephes. 4:12).
RECEIVING THE GIFT
How do we receive the salvation God offers us in Christ?
Someone asked him, "Lord, will only a few be saved?" He replied, "The door to heaven is narrow. Work hard to get in, because many will try to enter." (Luke 13:23-24)
Salvation is not to be received lightly or casually. Receiving salvation requires more concentrated effort than most people are willing to put forth. Obviously we cannot save ourselves—there is no way we can work ourselves into God's favor. The effort we must put out to enter through the narrow door is earnestly desiring to know Jesus and diligently striving to follow him whatever the cost. We dare not put off making this decision because the door will not stay open forever.
Receiving salvation is a deep and total commitment. The people were eager to know who would be in God's kingdom. Jesus explained that although many people know something about God, only a few have acknowledged their sins and accepted his forgiveness. Just listening to Jesus' words or admiring his miracles is not enough—we must turn from sin and trust in God to save us.
Hearing this, a man sitting at the table with Jesus exclaimed, "What a privilege it would be to have a share in the Kingdom of God!" (Luke 14:15)
Receiving salvation is not to be put off until later. The man sitting at the table with Jesus saw the glory of God's kingdom, but he did not yet understand how to get in. In Jesus' story, many people turned down the invitation to the banquet because the timing was inconvenient. We too can resist or delay responding to God's invitation, and our excuses may sound reasonable—work duties, family responsibilities, financial needs, or whatever they may be. Nevertheless, God's invitation is the most important event in our life, no matter how inconveniently it may be timed. Are you making excuses to avoid responding to God's call? Jesus reminds us that the time will come when God will pull his invitation and offer it to others—then it will be too late to get into the banquet.
Receiving salvation means also receiving the Savior. It was customary to send two invitations to a party—the first to announce the event, the second to tell the guests that everything was ready. The guests in Jesus' story insulted the host by making excuses when he issued the second invitation. In Israel's history, God's first invitation came from Moses and the prophets; the second came from his Son. The religious leaders accepted the first invitation. They believed that God had called them to be his people, but they insulted God by refusing to accept his Son. Thus, as the master in the story sent his servant into the streets to invite the needy to his banquet, so God sent his Son to the whole world of needy people to tell them that God's kingdom had arrived and was ready for them.
This is the way to have eternal life—to know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, the one you sent to earth. (John 17:3)
Receiving salvation includes entering into a personal relationship with God. How do we get eternal life? Jesus tells us clearly here—by knowing God the Father himself through his Son, Jesus Christ. Eternal life requires entering into a personal relationship with God through his Son, Jesus Christ. When we admit our sin and turn away from it, Christ's love lives in us by the Holy Spirit.
Peter's words convicted them deeply, and they said to him and to the other apostles, "Brothers, what should we do?" Peter replied, "Each of you must turn from your sins and turn to God, and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. Then you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit." (Acts 2:37-38)
Receiving salvation is a powerful, personal response to the gospel. After Peter's powerful, Spirit-filled message, the people were deeply moved and asked, "What should we do?" This is the basic question we must ask. It is not enough to be sorry for our sins—we must let God forgive them, and then we must live like forgiven people. Has God spoken to you through his Word or through the words of another believer? Like Peter's audience, ask God what you should do, and then obey.
Receiving salvation means we must repent of our sins. If you want to follow Christ, you must "turn from your sins . . . and be baptized." To "turn from sin" means changing the direction of your life from selfishness and rebellion against God's laws. At the same time, you must turn to Christ, depending on him for forgiveness, mercy, guidance, and purpose. We cannot save ourselves—only God can save us. Baptism identifies us with Christ and with the community of believers. It is a condition of discipleship and a sign of faith.
Salvation that comes from trusting Christ—which is the message we preach—is already within easy reach. In fact, the Scriptures say, "The message is close at hand; it is on your lips and in your heart." For if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is by believing in your heart that you are made right with God, and it is by confessing with your mouth that you are saved. (Romans 10:8-10)
Receiving salvation is simple, direct, personal, and public. Have you ever been asked, "How do I become a Christian?" These verses give you the beautiful answer—salvation is as close as your own mouth and heart. People think it must be a complicated process, but it is not. If we believe in our heart and say with our mouth that Christ is the risen Lord, we will be saved.
To those called by God to salvation, both Jews and Gentiles, Christ is the mighty power of God and the wonderful wisdom of God. This "foolish" plan of God is far wiser than the wisest of human plans, and God's weakness is far stronger than the greatest of human strength. (1 Cor. 1:24-25)
Receiving salvation is simple, yet many still refuse. Paul continues to emphasize that the way to receive salvation is so simple that any person who wants to can understand it. Skill and wisdom do not get a person into God's kingdom—simple faith does—so no one can boast that his or her achievements helped secure eternal life. Salvation is totally from God through Jesus' death. There is nothing we can do to earn our salvation; we need only accept what Jesus has already done for us.
(Handbook of Bible Application)
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Carol Swenson
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THE SOURCE OF FAITH
IT IS THE WORK OF THE TRIUNE GOD
God the Father: Rom. 12:3; I Cor. 12. This is true of faith both in its beginning (Phil. 1:29) and its development (1 Cor. 12). Faith, then, is a gift of His grace.
God the Son: Heb. 12:2—"Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith." (Illustration, Matt. 14:30, 31—Peter taking his eyes off Christ.) I Cor. 12; Luke 17:5.
God the Spirit: Gal. 5:22; I Cor. 12:9. The Holy Spirit is the executive of the Godhead.
Why then, if faith is the work of the Godhead, are we responsible for not having it?
God wills to work faith in all His creatures, and will do so if they do not resist His Holy Spirit. We are responsible, therefore, not so much for the lack of faith, but for resisting the Spirit who will create faith in our hearts if we will permit Him to do so.
THERE IS ALSO A HUMAN SIDE TO FAITH
Rom. 10:17—"So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God." (cf. the context, vv. 9-21.) Acts 4:4—"Howbeit many of them which heard the word believed." In this instance the spoken word, the Gospel, is referred to; in other cases the written Word, the Scriptures, are referred to as being instrumental in producing faith. See also Gal. 3:2-5. It was a looking unto the promises of God that brought such faith into the heart of Abraham (Rom. 4:19).
Prayer also is an instrument in the development of faith. Luke is called the human Gospel because it makes so much of prayer, especially in connection with faith: 22:32—"But I have prayed for thee that thy faith fail not." 17:5—"And the apostles said unto the Lord, Increase our faith." See also Mark 9:24; Matt. 17:19-21.
Our faith grows by the use of the faith we already have. Luke 17:5, 6; Matt. 25:39.
(The Great Doctrines of the Bible)
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WildB
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Application is INDIVIDUAL and it is ONE on ONE.
Ephesians 4
1 I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called,
2 With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love;
3 Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.
4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.
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That is all.....
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Betty Louise
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BloodBrought
Thank you. I had been a member of Rapture Ready Board for over 10 years, and it broke my heart to be permanently banned.
I was raised Assembly of God. We were not Calvinist. I remember living in fear of losing my salvation. In 1993 I joined the Baptist Church and I took comfort in Calvinism and that my salvation was secure. If I had to put a label on belief, it would be moderate Calvinist.
I believe in Evangelism and reaching out to the lost. I don't feel comfortable debating the subject. I feel what is witnessing getting people saved. Election and predestined - I leave in God's hands.
Betty
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
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Carol Swenson
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I know that only God is perfect in the absolute sense. When I say that Adam and Eve were created to be perfect, I mean they were not handicapped or deficient in anyway. Perfectly healthy, normal people. And they were not born with a sin nature like us; they were directly created by the hand of God. As WildB said, they were innocent, sinless.
Eve was deceived by Satan, a being so deceptive and compelling. We aren't told why Adam sinned, only that he did it of his own free will. The first death, the first sacrifice, provided the covering for their shame.
My question was why did God allow them to sin? Why did God put the tree within their reach, and why did He allow Satan to be there in His garden?
I'll answer my own question. I don't know if this is THE answer, but I'll offer it as one answer to a very disturbing question. At least, it's very disturbing to me.
I think the answer is found in events that occurred before the creation of the world. Christ is the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world (Revelation 13:8). God was to be manifest in Christ, reconciling the world unto Himself. (2 Corinthians 5:19). He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. (Ephesians 1:4)
In the sovereignty and omniscience of God, many things were determined and accomplished before or from the foundation of the world:
Christ was loved by the Father before the foundation (John 17:24).
Wisdom was established before the foundation (Pr. 8:23).
Believers were predestined for salvation before the foundation (Eph. 1:4; 2Ti. 1:9).
God promised eternal life before time began (Tit. 1:2).
Christ was foreordained before the foundation (1Pe. 1:20; Rev. 13:8+).
Unrevealed secrets of God existed from the foundation (Mat. 13:35).
The kingdom was prepared for the faithful from the foundation (Mat. 25:34).
The blood of all the prophets was shed from the foundation (Luke 11:50).
The Beast worshipers were not written in the Book of Life from the foundation (Rev. 17:8+).
The entire plan of redemption was made before the world was created. Why?
Here is my answer. The rebellion of Satan and the war in Heaven, which happened before the world was made, resulted in sin and death. Sin and death became part of the fabric of God's creation because Satan is a created being, a part of God's creation. Just as Adam and Eve brought sin into the world, Satan brought sin into existence.
Because of Satan's evil and the law of sin and death, the plan of redemption became necessary and was made before the world was made. And because of Satan's evil, his war with God continued into Eden and all through history. The tree had to be in Eden because sin and death had already become part of creation, part of reality. The choice was, and is, to love and obey God, or not. God desires that we choose to share a loving relationship with Him. Adam and Eve did not have to sin, but they did have to be given the choice. They weren't influenced by Irresistible Grace or the Perseverance of the Saints. Everyone is given that same choice, even Christ in the wilderness.
The Bible supports both the sovereignty of God and the free will of man, so it's my belief that although some are elected, many others come to faith by choice. I've read about different people of faith, and there are all different kinds of reasons why they come to faith.
Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death. (Romans 8:1-2)
The law given through Moses was made because sin existed. We are set free from that law but also from Satan and the law of sin and death he brought into creation. We obey, instead, the law of Christ.
The New Heavens and New Earth will be a new creation, and Satan won't be a part of it. Sin and death will be no more. Hallelujah!
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Bloodbought
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God only demands one thing from us. Be perfect.
Jesus said,
Matthew 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
Do we meet that standard? I don’t.
Job 9:20 If I justify myself, mine own mouth shall condemn me: If I say, I am perfect, it shall also prove me perverse.
But we can be made perfect by faith in the perfect sacrifice of Christ.
Ephesians 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
What wisdom there is in almighty God.
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WildB
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They were created Innocent.
Innocent vs perfect ?
Even Christ said to not suffer the Children even thou they were born in sin.. He also contrasted the grown-ups behavior by telling His to be perfect?
Luke 18:16 But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Suffer little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God.
Matthew 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
Romans 8:17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
Perfect is used allot by Paul, James and John?....
Its grieves me that I am not perfect, but I thank God our Father that as long as I walk not in pride and in Christ, I can learn to be grieved a lot less.
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That is all.....
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Bloodbought
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All we have to do is look at people today including ourselves and we see Adam. We are descendants of Adam; therefore we have the nature of Adam.
To start with, Adam had a right relationship with God, but when sin entered he lost communion with God. Even though Adam wasn’t capable of resisting sin, his rebellion lies squarely on his own shoulders and he was totally responsible for his actions.
God chose to redeem some by the sacrifice of Christ, even before the foundation of the world
Christ was made perfect,
Hebrews 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
He has perfected His elect,
Hebrews 10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
There is no perfection without Christ. He is perfect, the author of salvation and He perfects the saints.
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Carol Swenson
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Okay, you have me there. But in what way do you imagine they might have been less than perfect? Physically handicapped? Mentally deficient? Personality disorders? I can't suppose they were spiritually less than perfect since God breathed His own life into Adam, and Eve was made of Adam's substance. I think they were perfect, but as you say, scripture does not prove it.
So let's say you're right. Then we have God creating imperfect people to prove they are imperfect. Resulting in century after century of sin, crime, corruption and suffering, and leading to the cross.
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Bloodbought
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God never said they were perfect. He did not say anything was perfect. He used the words “very good.”
Genesis 1:31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.
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Carol Swenson
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He created perfect people in His own image to prove that they were...imperfect?
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Bloodbought
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God knows best because He set it all up, but it seems to me that God put the tree there and give them freedom of choice because He wanted to prove that man was not capable of keeping His commands. If he had been, Unconditional Election, Irresistible Grace, and Perseverance of the Saints would be unnecessary. Salvation through Christ would not be necessary, because man could keep the law, but man was not capable of keeping the law, therefor, the only remedy was the substitutionary atonement of Christ.
Freedom of choice was necessary to establish that man left to the freedom of his own will is a failure.
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Carol Swenson
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Sorry, I guess I'm just not making myself understood. I'll try again.
WHY were they given a choice if Unconditional Election, Irresistible Grace, and Perseverance of the Saints are God's way of dealing with His chosen people? If everything is according to God's sovereign will, not at all man's will, why was the tree even there? Adam and Eve could have simply been made to be what God wanted them to be, and they would have remained perfect, giving birth to perfect children.
But instead, it was important to God for them to be given that choice. Even though it would lead Christ to the cross.
WHY was freedom of choice that important?
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Bloodbought
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I’m not here to defend Calvinism. As a born-again believer I’m a defender of scripture.
So, yes they did have a choice. God give them a command not to eat of the tree of good and evil and told them the consequences of breaking that command. They were told that the day they eat of it they would die. When put to the test they were not able to resist the temptation and went ahead and eat of the fruit. That choice killed them spiritually that very day.
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Carol Swenson
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quote:
Originally posted by Bloodbought:
Just like all of us they were incapable of resisting sin. Yes they had a choice and they thought they made the right choice, but as we know it was the wrong choice.
The point I was trying to make is that they were given a choice. Calvinism denies people that choice.
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Bloodbought
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Betty,
Whoever kicked you off must be very closed-minded.
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Betty Louise
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This is a subject I avoid. I got kicked off the Rapture Ready board for giving my view on this subject. ![[Frown]](frown.gif) ![[Eek!]](eek.gif) ![[Confused]](confused.gif)
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
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Bloodbought
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Just like all of us they were incapable of resisting sin. Yes they had a choice and they thought they made the right choice, but as we know it was the wrong choice.
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Carol Swenson
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But they were not Totally Depraved. They were perfect and sinless. Yet they were still given a choice.
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Bloodbought
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All Adam and Eve did was prove that they were incapable of keeping Gods law.
Original sin was the sin of pride, which caused them to fall for the devils lie.
Not one of us would have passed the test any better than Adam and Eve, because we are all of the same nature. God knew this and that is why He chose us in Christ before the foundation of the world.
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Carol Swenson
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It occurs to me that if Calvinism were true, then Unconditional Election, Irresistible Grace, and Perseverance of the Saints would have all worked together to prevent Adam and Eve from original sin. In fact, the CHOICE of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil would not have even been there.
Today, each of us is still given the choice to love and obey Him by receiving and following Christ as our Lord and Savior. And the evil one is still tempting each person with the lusts of the flesh, lusts of the eyes, and the pride of life.
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Carol Swenson
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This refers to the Calvinist's belief in limited atonement, where Christ died ONLY for the elect. The rest of the world is left without a Savior.
The whole paragraph reads
quote:
According to the Arminian doctrine the purpose of God to redeem mankind was bound up with His purpose to create. The Lamb of God was “slain from the foundation of the world” (Rev. 13:8, KJV, NIV). God would not have permitted a race of sinners to come into existence without provision to save them. Such provision must not be for only a part but for the whole of the fallen race. To suppose the contrary is opposed to the divine perfections. To doom to eternal death any number of mankind who were born in sin and without sufficient remedy would be injustice.
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Bloodbought
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quote:
To doom to eternal death any number of mankind who were born in sin and without sufficient remedy would be injustice.
Not at all, If God was to meet out justice He would save none. Why do sinners think they deserve mercy when their backs are toward God and they rebel against Him continually? Sinners have no interest in serving God, because they serve the devil. But, I like to see the “But” in scripture; God in His mercy chose to save some and turn them from sin to faith in Christ as their Lord and savior.
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Carol Swenson
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ELECTION
Bible Meaning
This word in the Scriptures has three distinct applications. (1) To the divine choice of nations or communities for the possession of special privileges with reference to the performance of special services. Thus the Jews were “a chosen nation,” “the elect.” Thus also in the NT, bodies of Christian people, or churches, are called “the elect.” (2) To the divine choice of individuals to a particular office or work. Thus Cyrus was elected of God to bring about the rebuilding of the Temple, and thus the twelve were chosen to be apostles and Paul to be the apostle to the Gentiles. (3) To the divine choice of individuals to be the children of God, and therefore heirs of heaven.
It is with regard to election in this third sense that theological controversies have been frequent and at times most fierce. Calvinists hold that the election of individuals to salvation is absolute, unconditional, by virtue of an eternal divine decree. Arminians regard election as conditional upon repentance and faith; the decree of God is that all who truly repent of their sins and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ shall be saved. But every responsible person determines for himself whether or not he will repent and believe. Sufficient grace is bestowed upon everyone to enable him to make the right decision.
The Calvinistic View
The Westminster Confession, the standard of the Church of Scotland and of the various Presbyterian churches of Europe and America, contains the following statement:
Therefore, they who are elected, being fallen in Adam, are redeemed by Christ, are effectually called unto faith in Christ, by His Spirit working in due season; are justified, adopted, sanctified, and kept by His power through faith unto salvation. Neither are any other redeemed by Christ, effectually called, justified, adopted, sanctified, and saved, but the elect only.
The rest of mankind God was pleased, according to the unsearchable counsel of His own will, whereby He extendeth or withholdeth mercy, as He pleaseth, for the glory of His sovereign power over His creatures, to pass by, and to ordain them to dishonor and wrath for their sin, to the praise of His glorious justice.”
In support of this doctrine several arguments are made by Calvinistic theologians:
(1) According to the Scriptures election is not of works but of grace; and that it is not of works means that it is not what man does that determines whether he is to be one of the elect or not. For the descendants of Adam this life is not a probation. They stood their probation in Adam and do not stand each one for himself.
(2) The sovereignty of God in electing men to salvation is shown by the fact that repentance and faith are gifts from God. These fruits of His Spirit are the consequences and signs of election and not its conditions.
(3) The salvation that is of grace must be of grace throughout. The element of works or human merit must not be introduced at any point in the plan. And that would be the case if repentance and faith were the conditions of election.
(4) The system of doctrine called Calvinistic, Augustinian, Pauline, should not be thus designated. That though taught clearly by Paul, particularly in Romans 8:9, it was taught also by others of the writers of sacred Scripture, and by Christ Himself. Reference is made to Matthew 11:25-26; Luke 4:25-27; Luke 8:10; John 6:37, 39; etc.
(5) That the sovereignty of God is evidenced in dispensing saving grace is illustrated also in His establishing the temporal conditions of mankind. Some are born and reared in the surroundings of civilization, others of barbarism. And precisely so some are blessed with the light of the gospel, while others, dwelling in pagan lands, are deprived of that light and consequently are not saved.
This system of strict Calvinism above outlined has received various modifications by theologians of the Calvinistic school.
The Arminian View
The Arminian view of election has been in recent years more generally accepted than formerly, even among denominations whose teaching has been Calvinistic or indefinite upon this point. This view grounds itself, in opposition to Calvinism, upon the universality of the atonement and the graciously restored freedom of the human will. Election, accordingly, is not absolute but conditional, contingent upon the proper acceptance of such gifts of grace as God by His Spirit and providence puts within the reach of men.
Inasmuch as this subject involves the character and method of the divine government and the destiny of the entire race, the following should be said:
(1) According to the Arminian doctrine the purpose of God to redeem mankind was bound up with His purpose to create. The Lamb of God was “slain from the foundation of the world” (Rev. 13:8, KJV, NIV). God would not have permitted a race of sinners to come into existence without provision to save them. Such provision must not be for only a part but for the whole of the fallen race. To suppose the contrary is opposed to the divine perfections. To doom to eternal death any number of mankind who were born in sin and without sufficient remedy would be injustice.
(2) The benefits of the atonement are universal and in part unconditional. They are unconditional with respect to those who, through no fault of their own, are in such a mental or moral condition as to make it impossible for them either to accept or reject Christ. A leading denomination emphasizes the doctrine that “all children, by virtue of the unconditional benefits of the atonement, are members of the kingdom of God.” This principle extends to others besides children, both in heathen and Christian lands. God alone is competent to judge the extent to which, in varying degrees, human beings are responsible, and therefore the extent to which the unconditional benefits of the atonement may be applied.
(3) The purpose or decree of God is to save all who do not, actually or implicitly, willfully reject the saving offices of the Lord Jesus Christ. Among those who have not heard the gospel may exist “the spirit of faith and the purpose of righteousness.” Thus even those who have no knowledge of the historic Christ virtually determine whether or not they will be saved through Christ. They to whom the gospel is preached have higher advantages and more definite responsibilities. To them, repentance toward God and faith in the Lord Jesus Christ are the conditions of salvation.
(4) Upon all men God bestows some measure of His grace, restoring to the depraved will sufficient freedom to enable them to accept Christ and be saved. Thus, in opposition to Calvinists, Arminians assert that not only Adam, but also his depraved descendants are in a stage of probation.
In behalf of this doctrine the following is argued:
(1) That the whole trend of the Scriptures is to declare the responsibility of men and their actual power to choose between life and death.
(2) That the Scriptures explicitly teach that it is the will of God that all men should be saved. Only those perish who wickedly resist His will (1 Tim. 2:4; 1 Tim. 4:10; John 5:40; Acts 7:51; etc.).
(3) That the Scriptures declare the universality of Christ’s atonement, and in some degree the universality of its benefits (Hebrews 2:9; John 1:29; John 3:16-17; 1 Cor. 15:22; Romans 5:18-19; and many other passages).
(4) That the doctrine of unconditional election necessarily implies that of unconditional reprobation; and that is to charge God with cruelty.
(5) That unconditional election also necessarily implies the determinate number of the elect, a point that Calvinists hold, though they admit that they have for it no explicit teaching of Scripture. To the contrary, the Scriptures not only generally but particularly teach that the number of the elect can be increased or diminished. This is the purport of all those passages in which sinners are exhorted to repent, or believers warned against becoming apostate, or to “make certain about His calling and choosing you” (Matthew 24:4, 13; 2 Peter 1:10; etc.).
(6) That the Scriptures never speak of impenitent and unbelieving men as elect, as in some cases it would be proper to do if election were antecedent to repentance and faith and not conditioned thereby.
(7) That the whole theory of unconditional election is of the same tendency with fatalism.
(8) That the logic of unconditional election is opposed to true evangelism.
(9) That the essential features of the Arminian doctrine of election belong to the primitive and truly historic doctrine of the church.
Augustine was the first prominent teacher of unconditional election, and he, regardless of the logical inconsistency, granted that reprobation is not unconditional. This doctrine of Augustine was first formally accepted by the church in A.D. 529, in the Canons of the Council of Orange, approved by Pope Boniface II. The prominence of unconditional election in the theory of Protestantism is due largely to the influence and work of John Calvin, who, at the age of twenty-five, wrote his Institutes, in which he not only set forth the Augustinian doctrine of unconditional election, but also taught unconditional reprobation.
John Wesley and his followers were responsible in a large degree for reviving and developing the doctrine of Arminius.
(The New Unger's Bible Dictionary)
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