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Topic: Forgiving Spirit
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Carol Swenson
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posted
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Christ rejecters who end up in hell.
Now, THAT is something I can agree with, with all my heart!
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Bloodbought
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Well, you are entitled to your views, but I believe God will be glorified with the final outcome of everyone. He is not going to be sitting on His throne feeling sorry for Christ rejecters who end up in hell. They deserve hell, we all deserve hell, and not one sin will enter heaven, not one. Christ is the bridge that leads from sin to salvation and from earth to heaven and only the elect who are chosen in Christ will get there.
You say you don't believe in Calvinism. There are many shades of Calvinism and correct me if I’m wrong, but it seems to me that you don’t reject them all since you embrace the biblical doctrine of election.
I don’t believe in hyper Calvinism that you alluded to earlier, where God saves the elect anyway so why bother preaching. That is a very unscriptural shade of Calvinism and one that Calvin himself would reject without question.
Anyway, I’ll be interested in your take on the topic.
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Carol Swenson
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Thanks for your kind words of encouragement. I do understand election, but I don't believe in Calvinism.
The Calvinistic View
The Westminster Confession, the standard of the Church of Scotland and of the various Presbyterian churches of Europe and America, contains the following statement:
quote:
Therefore, they who are elected, being fallen in Adam, are redeemed by Christ, are effectually called unto faith in Christ, by His Spirit working in due season; are justified, adopted, sanctified, and kept by His power through faith unto salvation. Neither are any other redeemed by Christ, effectually called, justified, adopted, sanctified, and saved, but the elect only.
The rest of mankind God was pleased, according to the unsearchable counsel of His own will, whereby He extendeth or withholdeth mercy, as He pleaseth, for the glory of His sovereign power over His creatures, to pass by, and to ordain them to dishonor and wrath for their sin, to the praise of His glorious justice.”
Augustine was the first prominent teacher of unconditional election, and he, regardless of the logical inconsistency, granted that reprobation is not unconditional. This doctrine of Augustine was first formally accepted by the church in A.D. 529, in the Canons of the Council of Orange, approved by Pope Boniface II. The prominence of unconditional election in the theory of Protestantism is due largely to the influence and work of John Calvin, who, at the age of twenty-five, wrote his Institutes, in which he not only set forth the Augustinian doctrine of unconditional election, but also taught unconditional reprobation.
It is not surprising that most Christians, even Calvinists, hate the idea of unconditional reprobation. To quote Calvin
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"“doomed from the womb to certain death, whereby God is glorified by their destruction”.
Most Calvinists will try to modify it or explain it away, as you did. "Everybody is lost in sin and no one has anything to recommend them to God above anyone else. And so from this mass of fallen humanity, God chooses to redeem some and leave others" seems to be a popular modification.
Unconditional reprobation is simply the flip side of the Calvinist's unconditional election. So just as God doesn't choose to save certain people because they are better than others (unconditional election), neither does He choose to not save certain people because they are worse than others (unconditional reprobation). They are cast into hell for eternity because, what? they're unlucky? to the praise of His glorious justice?
You are from Ireland, and I imagine that Calvinism is the predominant doctrine there. But it is only one point of view.
I'm going to start a new topic on Election where I'll post the whole article I quoted from. I can't resist adding that the idea of unconditional reprobation certainly flies in the face of unconditional forgiveness...
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Bloodbought
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You don’t seem to understand election.
We don’t have to embrace the false doctrine of Universal Salvation to demonstrate that election is unconditional.
You said,
quote:
Third, if only certain people are elected for salvation before the foundation of the world, that would mean that God intentionally created millions and millions of people predestined for eternal torment, all those not elected. They have no hope, and the gospel is meaningless. I could never agree with such a doctrine.
Neither could I agree with such a doctrine as you have presented it. You totally misrepresent the doctrine of election.
First, You know as well as I do that the scripture says we have been chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world, Eph 1:4.
Secondly you say, “that would mean that God intentionally created millions and millions of people predestined for eternal torment, all those not elected.”
Not so, God never predestined anyone for eternal torment, the devil did that to all of us, you, me and everyone else that ever lived. We all deserve eternal torment without exception because of sin. The good news is that God in His mercy elected some to everlasting life by the sacrifice of His Son, and I don’t know about you, but I am very humbled that He chose me out of all those millions and millions of people. There was nothing special about me that made me a stronger candidate for election than anyone else, but I was elected unconditionally. So were you unless you want to believe that God elected you on condition that you reached some kind of higher standard than others, but I don’t detect that kind of pride in you.
Thirdly you say, “They have no hope, and the gospel is meaningless.”
No, the gospel is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that believeth.
It draws out the elect and hardens those who are not elect.
Romans 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
I respect your views and God bless you too.
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Carol Swenson
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Bloodbought,
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I’m not here to win an argument, just to make sure our teaching is correct.
Don’t hesitate to correct me if I’m wrong, because truth is what counts.
I'm going to quote some of what you've said and then try to show why it's confusing to me. I'll bold the parts in question.
You said
quote:
1 John 2:2
And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
That seems to me to be Universal, but that’s not to say everyone will be saved.
And then you said
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God forgive us all of our sins past, present, and future unconditionally. He chose us in Christ before the foundation of the world and at a point in our lives He drew us unto Himself. Therefore, we are totally secure and no one, or nothing can pluck us out of His hand. God forgive us unconditionally. That’s the first thing.
First, if not everyone will be saved, God's forgiveness is NOT unconditional because it is conditional on His election. I will agree that He completely forgives us when we are born again, but it isn't unconditional. Unless by unconditional you mean it the way the commentary you quoted from meant it, that whether a person is a kind, law abiding person, or a serial killer like Dahmer and Bundy were, or converting from a different religion, rich or poor, young or old, male or female, of any race, etc.
Second, you say nothing of confessing and forsaking our sins, receiving Christ as our Lord and Savior, or being regenerated by the Holy Spirit. Even Paul, whom the Lord did choose, did all those things.
Third, if only certain people are elected for salvation before the foundation of the world, that would mean that God intentionally created millions and millions of people predestined for eternal torment, all those not elected. They have no hope, and the gospel is meaningless. I could never agree with such a doctrine.
You said
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The only exception I see is regarding an offending member of the church.
This seems to be a matter for the oversight of the church to discipline it’s offending members.
And then you said
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Now that we have been forgiven unconditionally, we are obliged to forgive others unconditionally who sin against us. The consequence of failure to do so is loss of fellowship, NOT loss of salvation.
First, we are all members of His church wherever we worship.
Second, you are saying that those who discipline offending members will suffer the consequence of being out of fellowship. Church leaders don't have different spiritual rules than other Christians. If they are out of fellowship, then they could not be appointed to discipline others within the church family.
Third, this contradicts the Lord's instructions to us.
Fourth, if there is even one "exception" then it is no longer "unconditional".
You said
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Parental forgiveness is that which is granted by God the Father to His erring child when he confesses and forsakes his sin. It results in the restoration of fellowship in the family of God, and has nothing to do with the penalty of sin. As Father, God cannot forgive us when we are unwilling to forgive one another. He doesn’t act that way, and cannot walk in fellowship with those who do. It is parental forgiveness that Jesus refers to in the words “and you will be forgiven.”
And then you said
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Loss of fellowship has nothing to do with forgiveness. It breaks down communication.
First, loss of fellowship has everything to do with forgiveness according to the first quote.
Second, the commentary that you said explained things states that God's forgiveness depends on us confessing and forsaking our sins AND depends on us forgiving others. NOT unconditional.
I think you want to believe in a clean, simple absolute. God forgives us unconditionally, so we must forgive others unconditionally. But I'm pretty sure the only doctrine that "proves" that position is Universal Salvation, a false doctrine, and one you have already discounted with your belief in election.
Also I believe that in your desire for a clean, simple absolute, you are ignoring the Lord's instructions to us concerning Christians who have sinned against us, and those who are living immoral lives.
Unless you embrace the false doctrine of Universal Salvation, your arguments will always contain contradictions because in reality there are conditions for forgiveness. If you want to forgive others unconditionally, that's your personal choice, but it is not a Bible truth.
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There is a desperate need for honesty in the church today. "Speaking the truth in love" is God's standard (Eph. 4:15). If we practice love without truth, it is hypocrisy. But if we try to have truth without love, it may be brutality. Jesus always taught the truth in love. If the truth hurts, it is because "Faithful are the wounds of a friend" (Prov. 27:6).
I always enjoy our discussions, even when we don't agree, and I respect how strongly you hold to your beliefs. God bless.
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WildB
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posted
k
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That is all.....
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Bloodbought
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posted
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Originally posted by Carol Swenson:
quote:
If we do not forgive others unconditionally we lose fellowship with God.
Then God's forgiveness is NOT unconditional. It is conditional on us forgiving others.
I’m not here to win an argument, just to make sure our teaching is correct.
Don’t hesitate to correct me if I’m wrong, because truth is what counts.
God forgive us all of our sins past, present, and future unconditionally. He chose us in Christ before the foundation of the world and at a point in our lives He drew us unto Himself. Therefore, we are totally secure and no one, or nothing can pluck us out of His hand. God forgive us unconditionally. That’s the first thing.
Now that we have been forgiven unconditionally, we are obliged to forgive others unconditionally who sin against us. The consequence of failure to do so is loss of fellowship, NOT loss of salvation.
In the Old Testament, Amos talks about how one should relate to God. Do you come and go through religious ritual, is that enough. Amos says no I don’t want to see this outside ritual; I want to make sure that you have a correct relationship with your brothers and sisters, you need to get that right before I will listen to your words of praise.
Psalm 66:18 If I regard iniquity in my heart, The Lord will not hear me:
Loss of fellowship has nothing to do with forgiveness. It breaks down communication.
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WildB
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Carol Swenson:
quote:
If we do not forgive others unconditionally we lose fellowship with God.
Then God's forgiveness is NOT unconditional. It is conditional on us forgiving others.
Love ya Carol......
Thank God he dont make cripples walk the line.
I am crippled , many ways.
On Christ I lean.
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That is all.....
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Carol Swenson
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quote:
If we do not forgive others unconditionally we lose fellowship with God.
Then God's forgiveness is NOT unconditional. It is conditional on us forgiving others.
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Bloodbought
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The only exception I see is regarding an offending member of the church.
This seems to be a matter for the oversight of the church to discipline it’s offending members.
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Carol Swenson
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Well, you're ignoring a lot of His Word to hold that view.
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Bloodbought
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The way I see it is that since God has forgiven us unconditionally, we should reciprocate by unconditionally forgiving others. If we do not forgive others unconditionally we lose fellowship with God. Not good for ones spirituality.
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Carol Swenson
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You seem to have a Calvinistic view of salvation.
Unconditional Election - Because man is dead in sin, he is unable to initiate a response to God; therefore, in eternity past God elected certain people to salvation. Election and predestination are unconditional; they are not based on man’s response (Romans 8:29-30;9:11; Ephesians 1:4-6, 11-12) because man is unable to respond, nor does he want to.
And then, if I'm not mistaken, you believe we should apply that same logic to our relationships with other people?
But the Believer's Bible Commentary you quoted from makes a distinction between salvation and sins committed after salvation. And it states that both are conditional. I'm confused about what direction you are going here.
Yes, of course we are to be forgiving of others. But Jesus told us clearly what to do when someone sins against us and refuses to repent.
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Bloodbought
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quote:
Originally posted by Carol Swenson:
You already know this answer.
Romans 10:9-10
that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.
Yes, and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Ephesians 2:8
There are no conditions attached to receiving a free gift. It’s unconditional.
I think the following goes a long way to resolving these issues, but I would appreciate any comments.
“Forgive and you will be forgiven.” This makes our forgiveness dependent on our willingness to forgive. But other Scriptures seem to teach that when we receive Christ by faith, we are freely and unconditionally forgiven. How can we reconcile this seeming contradiction? The explanation is that we are speaking of two different types of forgiveness—judicial and parental. Judicial forgiveness is that which is granted by God the Judge to everyone who believes on the Lord Jesus Christ. It means that the penalty of sins has been met by Christ and the believing sinner will not have to pay it. It is unconditional.
Parental forgiveness is that which is granted by God the Father to His erring child when he confesses and forsakes his sin. It results in the restoration of fellowship in the family of God, and has nothing to do with the penalty of sin. As Father, God cannot forgive us when we are unwilling to forgive one another. He doesn’t act that way, and cannot walk in fellowship with those who do. It is parental forgiveness that Jesus refers to in the words “and you will be forgiven.”
Believer’s Bible Commentary
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Carol Swenson
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Here is something insightful from Wiersbe about this topic.
Honesty (Matt. 18:15-20)
We don't always practice humility. There are times when, deliberately or unconsciously, we offend others and hurt them. Even the Old Testament Law recognized "sins of ignorance" (Num. 15:22), and David prayed to be delivered from "secret faults" (Ps. 19:12), meaning "faults that are even hidden from my own eyes." What should we do when another Christian has sinned against us or caused us to stumble? Our Lord gave several instructions.
Keep the matter private. Approach the person who sinned and speak with him alone. It is possible that he does not even realize what he has done. Or, even if he did it deliberately, your own attitude of submission and love will help him to repent and apologize. Above all else, go to him with the idea of winning your brother, not winning an argument. It is possible to win the argument and lose your brother.
We must have a spirit of meekness and gentleness when we seek to restore a brother or sister (Gal. 6:1). We must not go about condemning the offender, or spreading gossip. We must lovingly seek to help him in the same way we would want him to help us if the situation were reversed. The word restore in Galatians 6:1 is a Greek medical word that means "to set a broken bone." Think of the patience and tenderness that requires!
Ask for help from others. If the offender refuses to make things right, then we may feel free to share the burden with one or two dependable believers. We should share the facts as we see them and ask the brethren for their prayerful counsel. After all, it may be that we are wrong. If the brethren feel the cause is right, then together we can go to the offender and try once again to win him. Not only can these men assist in prayer and persuasion, but they can be witnesses to the church of the truth of the conversation (Deut. 19:15; 2 Cor. 13:1).
When sin is not dealt with honestly, it always spreads. What was once a matter between two people has now grown to involve four or five people. No wonder Jesus and Paul both compared sin to leaven (yeast), because leaven spreads.
Ask the church for help. Remember, our goal is not the winning of a case but the winning of a brother. The word gained in Matthew 18:15 is used in 1 Corinthians 9:19-22 to refer to winning the lost; but it is also important to win the saved. This is our Lord's second mention of the church (see Matt. 16:18), and here it has the meaning of a local assembly of believers. Our Lord's disciples were raised in the Jewish synagogue, so they were familiar with congregational discipline.
What started as a private problem between two people is now out in the open for the whole church to see. Church discipline is a neglected ministry these days, yet it is taught here and in the epistles (see 1 Cor. 5; 2 Thes. 3:6-16; 2 Tim. 2:23-26; Titus 3:10). Just as children in the home need discipline, so God's children in the church need discipline. If by the time the matter comes to the whole church, the offender has not yet changed his mind and repented, then he must be disciplined. He cannot be treated as a spiritual brother, for he has forfeited that position. He can only be treated as one outside the church, not hated, but not held in close fellowship.
Keep the local church spiritual (vv. 18-20). It is important that the local assembly be at its best spiritually before it seeks to discipline a member. When a church disciplines a member, it is actually examining itself and disciplining itself. This is why our Lord added these words about authority, prayer, and fellowship. We cannot discipline others if we ourselves are not disciplined. Whatever we loose (permit) in the assembly must first have been permitted by God (see the comments on Matt. 16:19).
The church must be under the authority of God's Word. Church discipline does not refer to a group of Christian policemen throwing their weight around. Rather, it means God exercising His authority in and through a local body, to restore one of His erring children.
Not only must there be the authority of the Word, but there must also be prayer (Matt.18:19). The word agree in the Greek gives us our English word "symphony." The church must agree in prayer as it seeks to discipline the erring member. It is through prayer and the Word that we ascertain the will of the Father in the matter.
Finally, there must be fellowship (Matt. 18:20). The local church must be a worshiping community, recognizing the presence of the Lord in their midst. The Holy Spirit of God can convict both the offender and the church, and He can even judge sin in the midst (Acts 5).
There is a desperate need for honesty in the church today. "Speaking the truth in love" is God's standard (Eph. 4:15). If we practice love without truth, it is hypocrisy. But if we try to have truth without love, it may be brutality. Jesus always taught the truth in love. If the truth hurts, it is because "Faithful are the wounds of a friend" (Prov. 27:6).
But keep in mind that humility must come before honesty. A proud Christian cannot speak the truth in love. He will use a brother's faults as a weapon to fight with and not as a tool to build with. The result will be only greater disharmony and disagreement.
The first internal problem of the New Testament church was dishonesty (Acts 5). Ananias and Sapphire tried to make the church members believe that they were more spiritual than they really were. They lied to themselves in thinking they could get away with the masquerade; they lied to their fellow Christians and the church leaders; and they tried to lie to the Holy Spirit. The result was judgment and death. God may not kill every hypocrite in the church today, but hypocrisy certainly helps to kill the church.
The second internal problem (Acts 6) had to do with people being neglected. The members and leaders faced this problem with truth and love, and the result was blessing. It takes both truth and love, and both must be used with humility.
When we start living in an atmosphere of humility and honesty, we must take some risks and expect some dangers. Unless humility and honesty result in forgiveness, relationships cannot be mended and strengthened.
Bible Exposition Commentary - Be Loyal (Matthew)
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Carol Swenson
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You already know this answer.
Romans 10:9-10
that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.
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Bloodbought
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Are you saying that salvation is conditional upon our actions, and if so what are they?
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Carol Swenson
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You are right. Universal Salvation is a false doctrine, an unbiblical belief, that teaches everyone will go to heaven no matter what. But the Bible teaches that people who reject our Lord Jesus Christ and His sacrifice for us are not forgiven. God does not forgive people who reject His Son.
Unconditional forgiveness cannot be true because universal salvation is not true. Unconditional forgiveness would include rejecting Christ.
The people who stoned Stephen rejected Christ. Stephen prayed they would be forgiven for stoning him, nothing more.
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Bloodbought
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quote:
Originally posted by Carol Swenson:
Do you know what Universal Salvation is?
1 John 2:2
And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
That seems to me to be Universal, but that’s not to say everyone will be saved.
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Bloodbought
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I think Stephen both feared for their souls and forgive them unconditionally. He desired that God would forgive them unconditionally as well. Unconditional forgiveness is not an attribute of the natural man and at this moment I do not feel that I could forgive unconditionally.
Unconditional forgiveness is an attribute of God, in that, while we were yet sinners Christ died for us. This is where the grace of God comes in, for by grace we have been saved through faith, not of anything of ourselves least we boast. You give a good description of how you think Stephen would have felt during his stoning and I agree with what you said. The scripture says of Stephen, that he was a man full of faith and of the Holy Ghost. I believe that Stephen was given the needed grace to forgive in his desperate and trying circumstances, as were all the martyrs who have been tortured for their faith.
As I say I do not feel that I could forgive unconditionally right now, but if someone has a go at me, by the grace of God, and only by the grace of God I will turn the other cheek.
All glory be to Him.
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Carol Swenson
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quote:
Consider Stephen.
Paul was present at the stoning of Stephen and Stephen prayed, “Lay not this sin to their charge.” Later Paul was on his way to round up Christians and bring them back bound, when suddenly he was stopped in his tracks and converted to Christ, and by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit he became the author of much of the New Testament. Stephen forgave his enemies unconditionally and prayed for them. As a result, Paul became a mighty instrument in Gods hand to the salvation of the lost.
I've been thinking about Stephen. I tried to imagine being subjected to that much hatred and cruelty by a whole group of people, people I had respected all my life until recently. After being hit so hard by all those rocks, some of them large enough that a grown man would need both hands to lift it, Stephen's body would be in extreme pain and shock. He would have multiple fractures, tears and cuts, damaged organs and internal bleeding. He would be beyond hope and well beyond rational thought. His emotions would be overloaded and burned-out. He would be reduced to the point of abject helplessness. His last thought before death overtook him was that those people would burn in hell for eternity because they rejected Christ and His people, and so he cried out to the Lord pleading that He would not hold that sin, the sin of stoning him, against them. It wasn't a rational decision made by a calm man; it was a raw, primal cry to his Father.
I don't mean to be trying to add to scripture. This is a fictional account of what I imagine it was like for Stephen. But because our whole lives are founded on the salvation we receive through Christ, it seems to me that none of us would want to think people would burn forever because of something that was done to us. We would not want to be part of the cause for their damnation. I think if any of us were forced to make that decision in the last few seconds of our life, we would choose not to meet the Lord with that burden on our heart, but we would plead for their mercy.
Is that forgiving them, or is that fearing for their souls?
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Carol Swenson
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quote:
If we hate someone who is wicked, we show ourselves to be as wicked as the one we hate. Unconditional love doesn’t mean patting a person on the back when they do something wicked. We are to love our enemies, not because we condone their wickedness, but because we desire that they will become reconciled to God. We love them by showing them Gods standard and that sin will punish then eternally in the lake of fire and how the blood of Christ can cleanse and forgive them. We should do this in expectation that they will become convicted and repent. I don’t think we can expect repentance first before we have shown them the love and mercy and forgiveness of God.
This is unconditional love. It is not the same thing as unconditional forgiveness.
In your statement, we bring someone we care about to repentance, and I agree with it. Repentance. It's pretty much what I've been trying to say all along.
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WildB
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The Proof of a Forgiving Soul is the absence of the spirit of malice.
mal·ice [mal-is]
noun
1.
desire to inflict injury, harm, or suffering on another, either because of a hostile impulse or out of deep-seated meanness: the malice and spite of a lifelong enemy.
2.
Law. evil intent on the part of a person who commits a wrongful act injurious to others.
Origin:
1250–1300; Middle English < Old French < Latin malitia. See mal-, -ice
Synonyms
1. ill will, spite, spitefulness; animosity, enmity; malevolence; venom, hate, hatred; bitterness, rancor. See grudge.
Antonyms
1. benevolence, goodwill.
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That is all.....
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Bloodbought
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quote:
The question is about unconditional forgiveness, forgiving everyone of everything even if they don't repent, don't care, maybe enjoy their sin. I believe the Bible teaches against unconditional forgiveness. In fact, unconditional forgiveness would actually encourage sin. We should be kind and willing to forgive. But to actually forgive someone something that God has forbidden is assuming to have more authority than Him; it is pretending that God's Word is meaningless. I mean no offense to anyone here, but wouldn't that be like Satan in the Garden of Eden when he told Eve it was okay to eat the fruit?
If we hate someone who is wicked, we show ourselves to be as wicked as the one we hate. Unconditional love doesn’t mean patting a person on the back when they do something wicked. We are to love our enemies, not because we condone their wickedness, but because we desire that they will become reconciled to God. We love them by showing them Gods standard and that sin will punish then eternally in the lake of fire and how the blood of Christ can cleanse and forgive them. We should do this in expectation that they will become convicted and repent. I don’t think we can expect repentance first before we have shown them the love and mercy and forgiveness of God.
Consider Stephen.
Paul was present at the stoning of Stephen and Stephen prayed, “Lay not this sin to their charge.” Later Paul was on his way to round up Christians and bring them back bound, when suddenly he was stopped in his tracks and converted to Christ, and by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit he became the author of much of the New Testament. Stephen forgave his enemies unconditionally and prayed for them. As a result, Paul became a mighty instrument in Gods hand to the salvation of the lost.
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Carol Swenson
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quote:
That slave went out and found one of his fellow slaves who owed him a hundred denarii; and he seized him and began to choke him, saying, “Pay back what you owe.” So his fellow slave fell down and began to entreat him, saying, “Have patience with me and I will repay you.” He was unwilling however, but went and threw him in prison until he should pay back what was owed (vv. 28–30).
There is no question about forgiving someone who asks for forgiveness, someone who wants to do the right thing if and when he is able to. Of course we would forgive that person.
The question is about unconditional forgiveness, forgiving everyone of everything even if they don't repent, don't care, maybe enjoy their sin. I believe the Bible teaches against unconditional forgiveness. In fact, unconditional forgiveness would actually encourage sin. We should be kind and willing to forgive. But to actually forgive someone something that God has forbidden is assuming to have more authority than Him; it is pretending that God's Word is meaningless. I mean no offense to anyone here, but wouldn't that be like Satan in the Garden of Eden when he told Eve it was okay to eat the fruit?
The serpent said to the woman, "You surely will not die!
Here are some verses to show that we do not forgive unconditionally.
Matthew 18:15-17 (NASB)
15 "If your brother sins, go and show him his fault in private; if he listens to you, you have won your brother. 16 "But if he does not listen to you, take one or two more with you, so that BY THE MOUTH OF TWO OR THREE WITNESSES EVERY FACT MAY BE CONFIRMED. 17 "If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector.
Acts 8:22-23 (NASB)
22 "Therefore repent of this wickedness of yours, and pray the Lord that, if possible, the intention of your heart may be forgiven you. 23 "For I see that you are in the gall of bitterness and in the bondage of iniquity."
2 Corinthians 10:3-6 (NASB)
3 For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war according to the flesh, 4 for the weapons of our warfare are not of the flesh, but divinely powerful for the destruction of fortresses. 5 We are destroying speculations and every lofty thing raised up against the knowledge of God, and we are taking every thought captive to the obedience of Christ, 6 and we are ready to punish all disobedience, whenever your obedience is complete.
It isn't just a matter of human relationships, but spiritual warfare. Who among us would not tell a child, one we love very much, that he cannot lie and steal and do other sinful things? Should we do less for our friends?
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Bloodbought
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The Proof of a Forgiving Spirit
As a kind of postscript to the Disciples’ Prayer, Matthew 6:14–15 is our Savior’s own commentary on the petition of verse 12—the only petition He provides additional insight to. Obviously the truths here are vitally important: “For if you forgive men for their transgressions, your Heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive men, then your Father will not forgive your transgressions.”
The first part of the principle is positive: “If you forgive men for their transgressions.” Believers should forgive as those who have received judicial forgiveness from God. When your heart is filled with such a forgiving spirit, “your Heavenly Father will also forgive you.” Believers cannot know the parental forgiveness of God, which keeps fellowship with the Lord rich and blessings from Him profuse, apart from forgiving others in heart and word.
The verb translated “forgive” (aphiemi) means literally “to hurl away.” Paul had that in mind when he wrote, “I found mercy, in order that in me as the foremost [of sinners], Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience” (1 Tim. 1:16; cf. Matt. 7:11). An unforgiving spirit not only is inconsistent for one who has been totally forgiven by God, but also bears the chastening of God rather than His mercy.
Our Lord illustrates the unmerciful response in the parable of the man forgiven a massive debt (Matt. 18:21–35). “The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a certain king who wished to settle accounts with his slaves. And when he had begun to settle them, there was brought to him one who owed him ten thousand talents” (vv. 23–24). One talent was equal to six thousand denarii, and laborers earned one denarius each working day. This slave would have had to work six days a week for one thousand weeks (slightly more than nineteen years) to earn just one talent.
You can well imagine that “he did not have the means to repay, [so] his lord commanded him to be sold, along with his wife and children and all that he had, and repayment to be made. The slave therefore falling down, prostrated himself before him, saying, ‘Have patience with me, and I will repay you everything’ ” (vv. 25–26). His debt was massive and would have been impossible for him to repay. Yet “the lord of that slave felt compassion and released him and forgave him the debt” (v. 27). In the symbolism of the parable, the man is forgiven of his unpayable debt, which represents sin, and he finds mercy from the king, which represents salvation. Yet the man abuses this wondrous gift:
That slave went out and found one of his fellow slaves who owed him a hundred denarii; and he seized him and began to choke him, saying, “Pay back what you owe.” So his fellow slave fell down and began to entreat him, saying, “Have patience with me and I will repay you.” He was unwilling however, but went and threw him in prison until he should pay back what was owed (vv. 28–30).
This debt, while a significant sum (three months’ wage), could have been repaid, but it was a trifling amount compared to what the other slave owed. The Lord describes what happened next:
When his fellow slaves saw what had happened, they were deeply grieved and came and reported to their lord all that had happened. Then summoning him, his lord said to him, “You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you entreated me. Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, even as I had mercy on you?” And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him. So shall My Heavenly Father also do to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart (vv. 31–35).
That is a picture of someone who eagerly receives God’s forgiveness but is not willing to forgive others. I hope you’re not holding any grudges, and that you have not forgotten the great mercy you received from God.
Matthew 6:15 captures the essence of this parable and its meaning for believers: “If you do not forgive men, then your Father will not forgive your transgressions.” The sin of an unforgiving heart and a bitter spirit (Heb. 12:15) forfeits blessing and invites chastening.
Every believer must seek to manifest the forgiving spirit of Joseph (Gen. 50:19–21) and of Stephen (Acts 7:60) as often as needed. To receive pardon from the perfectly holy God and then refuse to pardon others when we are sinful people is the epitome in abuse of mercy. And “judgment will be merciless to one who has shown no mercy; mercy triumphs over judgment” (James 2:13).
What have we learned? We have an ongoing problem: sin. It interrupts our fellowship and usefulness to Him. God’s provision for that sin is continual forgiveness. We receive it by confessing our sin. And the prerequisite is that we forgive others. An unforgiving Christian is a proud, selfish person who has forgotten that his sins have been washed away. Learn to confess, and before you confess, learn to forgive. Then we can confidently seek God in the solitude of our hearts and ask Him to forgive us each day.
Alone with God
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Bloodbought
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FORGIVING OTHERS IS THE ULTIMATE TEST
Jesus gives us the prerequisite for forgiving others in the words “as we also have forgiven our debtors” (Matt. 6:12). The principle is simple but sobering: if we have forgiven, we will be forgiven; if we have not forgiven, we will not be forgiven.
Reasons for Forgiving Others
We should forgive one another for several reasons.
A Characteristic of the Saints
As citizens of God’s kingdom we are blessed and receive mercy because we ourselves are merciful (Matt. 5:7). We are to love even our enemies because we have the nature of our Heavenly Father residing in us. Just before giving this model prayer, Jesus instructed His audience, “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor, and hate your enemy.’ But I say to you, ‘love your enemies, and pray for those who persecute you in order that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven’ ” (Matt. 5:43–45). Blessing those who persecute you is tantamount to forgiveness. By loving your enemies, you manifest that you are a child of God.
Forgiveness is the mark of a truly regenerate heart. When a Christian fails to forgive someone else, he sets himself up as a higher judge than God and even calls into question the reality of his faith.
Christ’s Example
The Apostle Paul instructs us to “be kind to one another, tender-hearted, forgiving each other, just as God in Christ also has forgiven you” (Eph. 4:32). John tells us, “The one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked” (1 John 2:6). Jesus Himself is our pattern for forgiveness. On behalf of those who drove the nails through His hands, spit in His face, mocked Him, and crushed a crown of thorns onto His head, Jesus said, “Father, forgive them” (Luke 23:34). He is our role model. The severity of any offense toward us cannot match what Christ endured. The writer of Hebrews said, “You have not yet resisted to the point of shedding blood in your striving against sin” (12:4).
Expresses the Highest Virtue of Man
A man displays the majesty of his creation in the image of God when he forgives. Proverbs 19:11 says, “A man’s discretion makes him slow to anger, and it is his glory to overlook a transgression.”
Frees the Conscience of Guilt
Unforgiveness not only stands as a barrier to God’s forgiveness but also interferes with peace of mind, happiness, satisfaction, and even the proper functioning of the body. According to 2 Corinthians 2:10–11, when we have an unforgiving heart, we give Satan an advantage over us.
Benefits the Body of Believers
Probably few things have so short-circuited the power of the church as unresolved conflicts among its members. The psalmist warns, “If I regard wickedness in my heart, the Lord will not hear” (Ps. 66:18). The Holy Spirit cannot work freely among those who carry grudges and harbor resentment (Matt. 5:23–24).
Delivers from God’s Discipline
Where there is an unforgiving spirit, there is sin; and where there is sin, there will be chastening. Hebrews 12:6 says, “Those whom the Lord loves He disciplines, and He scourges every son whom he receives.” Unrepentant sin in the church at Corinth caused many believers to be weak, sick, and even to die (1 Cor. 11:30).
Activates God’s Forgiveness
The activation of God’s forgiveness is probably the most important reason we must forgive others. This reason is so vital that Jesus reinforces it at the close of His pattern for prayer (vv. 14–15). Nothing in the Christian life is more important than forgiveness—our forgiveness of others and God’s forgiveness of us. Because God deals with us just as we deal with others, we are to forgive others as freely and graciously as God forgives us.
Alone with God.
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clark
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He forgave us from the cross it is just a matter of accepting His forgiveness and then allowing Him to turn us away from our sins.
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God's word is truth
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Carol Swenson
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Well, it seems that we define the word "forgiveness" in different ways. I believe that forgiveness is not a feeling, but a transaction between two people, and between God and a person.
If someone offends us, realizes it, and repents, we forgive him.
If someone offends us without realizing it, we talk to him about it. If he then realizes what he did and repents, we forgive him.
If someone offends us and we talk to him about it, but he doesn't care, or refuses to admit it, or tries to blame someone else, or makes excuses, then we can only give the matter to the Lord. If the offender is a Christian, we are told what to do in Matthew 18:15-17 and 1 Corinthians chapter 5.
An offense is a debt. In the world, when someone refuses to pay a debt, the matter is given to a professional debt collector. As Christians, when someone refuses to repent, we give the matter to the Lord. This is letting go of it, but it is not forgiveness. It cannot be forgiveness because the transaction did not occur, just as giving a debt to a debt collector does not mean the debt no longer exists.
The matter is given to God to judge righteously. We can't know what the offender is thinking or feeling. We don't know all he has been through in his life, or what desperate situation he might be in at the that time. But God knows, and He will always do what is right.
Our Lord had the authority to forgive people. But on the cross, the only one He forgave was the thief who believed in Him. Concerning all the others, He prayed that the Father would forgive them.
The same is true of Stephen. When he was being stoned, he prayed that the Lord would not hold their sin against them.
We are to love our enemies - to pray for them, bless them, and do good for them. This love is not an emotion, it's a behavior. It is agape love. I may love everyone in the sense that all people are made in the image of God and valued by Him. But I cannot say I feel a personal, emotional love for anyone who lives his life in a way that offends God and hurts others, such as a pedophile.
And we are to have a spirit of forgiveness, a willingness to forgive. We are to try to reason with the offender. But if he refuses to repent, we cannot forgive him; we can only give the matter to the Lord and let go of it. And our prayer is not that He will forgive them and allow them to continue sinning, but that He will not judge them immediately. That He will guide them to understanding and repentance; that He will allow them to live long enough to repent and be forgiven. Our desire is not only that we have peace of mind and live comfortably, but our desire is for their salvation.
The Jewish leaders who murdered Christ and murdered Stephen were given 40 years to hear the truth and repent before Jerusalem and the temple were destroyed. We know that Paul and a few of the others did repent and become believers during that time.
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Betty Louise
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Twice I was put in a position of forgiving someone who had wrong me to the point it changed my life. Neither person asked for forgiveness. I forgive them anyway. To not do so would have open my heart for bitternes. I had to pray for them many weeks in order to forgive them, but I at peace.
Betty
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
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Bloodbought
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During the war in Kosovo in 1999, three Americans were captured and held hostage for more than a month. After intense negotiations, a breakthrough occurred and the prisoners were allowed to go free.
Roy Lloyd was part of the delegation that secured their release. He reported, “Each of the three young soldiers was very religious. One of them, Christopher Stone, would not leave until he was allowed to go back to the soldier who served as his guard and pray for him.”
Here was a young man who knew something about the principles of Jesus. He could have resented his circumstances and hated his captors. He could have developed a bitter, vengeful spirit. He could have carried a burning rage out of that difficulty. But following the command of Jesus (Matthew 5:44) and the example of Paul and Silas in Philippi (Acts 16:25-34), he forgave his captor and ministered to him.
In a world where retaliation is common, believers are called to be different. We are to pray for our persecutors, forgive them, and minister to them.
Jesus’ principles for His followers are challenging, but with the help of the Holy Spirit who lives in us we can choose to have a forgiving spirit.
For Further Study
Why should we forgive? (Matthew 6:14-15).
Whom should we forgive? (Luke 17:3-4).
How can we forgive? (Galatians 5:22-25).
We are never more Christlike than when we choose to forgive.
http://odb.org/2000/12/13/a-forgiving-spirit/
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WildB
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Matthew 6
9 After this manner therefore pray ye:
Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
10 Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.
11 Give us this day our daily bread.
12 And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.
13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever.
In Jesus Name,
Amen.
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That is all.....
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Bloodbought
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quote:
Originally posted by Carol Swenson:
Yes, we are to love our enemies, bless them that curse us, do good to them that hate us, pray for them that despitefully use us and persecute us. Not unlike a parent of teenagers. ![[happyhappy]](graemlins/happyhappy.gif)
But if we bring this offender before the Lord in prayer, will He not tell us the same as He has already told us in His Word, to rebuke them and if they repent forgive them?
I think we have already demonstrated our willingness to forgive if we love our enemies, bless them that curse us, do good to them that hate us, pray for them that despitefully use us and persecute us.
I think when we look at the context; it’s only a church offender who needs rebuked.
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Carol Swenson
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Yes, we are to love our enemies, bless them that curse us, do good to them that hate us, pray for them that despitefully use us and persecute us. Not unlike a parent of teenagers.
But if we bring this offender before the Lord in prayer, will He not tell us the same as He has already told us in His Word, to rebuke them and if they repent forgive them?
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Bloodbought
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I believe that when our focus is on Christ and not on our problems or on those who wrong us we will be given the necessary grace to bring them before the Lord to overcome the difficulties. For example, the LORD turned the captivity of Job, when he prayed for his friends, Job 42:10. I do not believe that it is our task to make right the wrongs of others by withholding forgiveness in the hope that it will rebuke them. We are to love our enemies, bless them that curse us, do good to them that hate us, pray for them that despitefully use us and persecute us, Matthew 5:44. So I would say, leave it with the Lord and let Him deal with it, and the outcome may be surprising.
If someone within the church has wronged us and comes to us saying, “I repent” we need to know whether they have repented toward God or if it’s just an act of remorse to get us to accept them anyway. It is more important that we do all we can to get those who have sinned against us to repent before God than that they seek our forgiveness, because unless their sin is forgiven and cleansed by the blood of Christ there is nothing we can do to help.
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Hashe
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I believe in forgiveness first.
We can't control the actions of others. If someone doesn't acknowledge her or his wrong is beyond our control. However this doesn't mean we shouldn't forgive. If we don't forgive, it only affects us.
IF someone doesn't acknowledge wrong, then there might not be reconciliation and restitution of relationship. However this is a different issue.
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Carol Swenson
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Here are two articles about forgiveness. One teaches that our forgiveness of others requires their repentance, while the other teaches that our forgiveness of others must be unconditional.
I hope you will offer your thoughts on this topic. I believe in the "repentance first" school of thought unless the offender is a young child, mentally impaired, forced, or in some way unaware of the offense. Jesus pronounced woes on the Pharisees, and Paul pronounced a curse on anyone who taught a different gospel. I don't believe that forgiveness is unconditional.
http://questions.org/attq/should-i-offer-forgiveness-without-repentance/
Should I Offer Forgiveness Without Repentance?
Unconditional forgiveness is canceling a debt to all those who intentionally offend us, whether or not they own up to what they have done. Offering forgiveness without repentance, however, does not follow the biblical model of forgiveness (Luke 17:3,4).
The Bible says that we are to forgive as God forgave us (Ephesians 4:32, Colossians 3:13). God forgives us when we repent (Mark 1:15, Luke 13:3,5, Acts 3:19). He does not grant forgiveness to those of us who are stiff-necked and refuse to repent. We must recognize our sin and repent to receive and enjoy God’s merciful forgiveness. God requires repentance and so must we.
Repentance is important because it’s a person’s only hope for real change (Matthew 18:3; Acts 26:20). If we don’t admit our sin, it’s impossible to be transformed. If we aren’t keenly aware of the sinful direction our lives are going, we will not see a need to adjust the direction. Repentance demonstrates that we need God to help us change our thinking, attitudes, and behavior.
An unrepentant person maintains a sense of control over his life through pride, which can lead to destruction, violence, and animosity (Proverbs 8:13; 16:18; 29:23). Turning toward God (repentance) is necessary to break the cycle of destructive behaviors and patterns of relating to others. If as believers we don’t require repentance on the part of the offender, we stand in the way of that person’s coming to see his need for God and experiencing His forgiveness. To put it simply, forgiveness is a two-way process: repentance on the part of the offender and pardon on the part of the offended.
When only one part of the forgiveness process takes place, the hurt felt by the offended one can lead to hatred, bitterness, and desire for revenge. Because we desperately want relief from the gnawing desire to get even, we can be tempted to let an issue go, or “forgive” without ever confronting the person or waiting for him to show remorse.
It’s wrong, however, to assume that if we don’t forgive someone, we’ll be weighed down with hatred, bitterness, and revengeful desires. That’s not necessarily true because the Bible says we are to love a person regardless of whether or not he or she shows any remorse. We can love our enemies (1), but continue to have an unsettled issue with them. In many cases, it is more loving to withhold forgiveness until a change of heart is demonstrated than it is to offer forgiveness without the offender’s acknowledgment of deliberate wrongdoing.
Instead of giving in to revenge, we can soften our hearts toward those who have hurt us when we humbly admit that we, too, have hurt others. It is only by God’s grace that we can enjoy His goodness toward us at all. Just as important, we can have faith that God will avenge if it is necessary (Leviticus 19:18, Romans 12:19-21) and that He will hold each of us accountable (Romans 14:12; Hebrews 4:13 ). We don’t need to worry because our pain doesn’t go unnoticed by our Lord (Psalm 147:3). With that frame of mind, we can demonstrate a deeper trust in God and be led to pray for those who’ve hurt us.
Yes, an unconditional pardon can be granted without the offender ever knowing they’ve hurt us. But this one-sided “forgiveness” is not in our best interest, nor in the best interest of the person who hurt us. It devalues the significance of repentance and robs both the offender and us of the opportunity to grow in Christ.
The ultimate purpose of forgiveness is the healing of a relationship. This healing occurs only when the offender repents and demonstrates remorse and the offended one grants a pardon and demonstrates loving acceptance.
(1) An enemy can be defined as one who intentionally hurts us, is destructive, and can’t be trusted because of his or her lack of remorse. Unconditional forgiveness implies that our response to our enemies should be to offer a pardon with no response on the part of the offender. The Bible teaches, however, that we should respond to our enemies in love (Matthew 5:44). Scripture does not teach that we need to forgive our enemies. Instead, we should love them and pray for them. Love and forgiveness are not synonymous.
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http://www.gotquestions.org/withholding-forgiveness.html
Since God does not forgive until a person confesses/repents, does that mean we can withhold forgiveness from those who sin against us until they confess/repent?
The Bible speaks of two kinds of forgiveness—human forgiveness, that of people extending forgiveness toward others, and divine forgiveness, God’s forgiving human beings. Is there a difference? The forgiveness God extends to an unbeliever is conditional upon his repentance—that is, if a sinner never repents of his sin, he will remain unsaved (see Acts 3:19). Once a sinner repents and turns to Christ, all his sin is forgiven and all condemnation is removed (Romans 8:1). The forgiveness we are to extend to others is not conditioned upon being asked for nor upon our seeing fruits of repentance.
The Bible teaches us that God withholds forgiveness toward unsaved people who are unrepentant (2 Kings 24:4 and Lamentations 3:42). God does this because of His very nature: He is sinless. He is perfect. He is holy. He simply will not tolerate sin. Paul warns the willfully rebellious in Romans 2:5, “Because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God’s wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed.”
As Christians, we are certainly obligated to forgive others who sin against us and then repent (Matthew 6:14–15; 18:23–35; Mark 11:25; Luke 17:3–4; Ephesians 4:31–32; Colossians 3:13). This holds true even if someone sins against us repeatedly (Matthew 18:21–22).
But what about when someone sins against us and is not repentant? The fact that God makes repentance a condition for saving a person does not give us license to withhold forgiveness. God can judge a person’s intentions because He knows what’s in a person’s heart (1 Samuel 16:7; Hebrews 4:12–13), and we don’t. We are not God. We are not the Judge. For us to play God by refusing to offer forgiveness is an act of judgment on our part, something Jesus warns us against (Matthew 7:2).
When Peter asked Jesus how many times we should forgive someone, Jesus answered that we must forgive as many times as necessary. Then He illustrated forgiveness with a parable about a man who, although forgiven by his master of an overwhelming debt, refused to forgive another a paltry sum. When this man’s master heard about his ingratitude and injustice, he was outraged and had him handed over to the tormentors. “This is how My heavenly Father will treat each one of you, unless you forgive your brother from your heart” (Matthew 18:35).
Surely, by receiving such a massive pardon from God, we should not be so mean-spirited as to withhold forgiveness from others. Rather, we should emulate the example of our Savior. Forgiveness is not a fruit that needs time to grow in our lives. It is an act of the will. Jesus commands that if someone sins against us seven times in one day and repents as many times, that person should be forgiven (Luke 17:4). Forgiving someone for the same offense several times in one year would be a major test of sanctification, so seven times in one day drives Jesus’ point home. The disciples were so staggered by this that they immediately requested an increase in their faith (Luke 17:5). Jesus then told them what a tiny amount of faith can achieve by explaining that a servant does not receive praise for carrying out orders—for simply doing his duty. In other words, we do not need great faith to forgive; we only need to choose to carry out the Master’s instruction.
Jesus cried out from the cross, “Father forgive them for they do not know what they are doing” (Luke 23:34). Stephen asked that those who were stoning him be forgiven (Acts 7:60). In both cases, forgiveness was unconditional. Those around the cross were not asking for forgiveness, and neither were those stoning Stephen. And, obviously, someone who sins against us seven times in one day is not demonstrating fruits of repentance. By emulating Jesus and Stephen, we can extend God’s forgiveness, too. To wait until we are asked for forgiveness may mean we never get an opportunity to forgive. In all this, we must realize that God never asks us to do the impossible. Were it beyond our ability to forgive from the heart, Jesus would never have directed us to do it.
An unforgiving spirit leads to bitterness, anger, and resentment. A heart with such an attitude cannot have true fellowship with God. Not holding grudges allows a state of mind that is ready and willing to forgive. Reconciliation is the goal, and if there cannot be reconciliation, a willingness to forgive must be maintained. There can be no excuse for withholding forgiveness from others (Matthew 5:22–24).
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