posted                         

quote:

---

Originally posted by Aaron:

quote:

---

Originally posted by WildB:


Romans 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

---

Just to be clear: I believe Mormonism is a cult as well.


But, you seem to be teaching that 'faith comes by reading'.
Are you advocating that faith comes by reading? Because the passage you quoted clearly states that faith comes by hearing.

And to carry it further:

Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher?

Rom 10:15 And how shall they preach unless they are sent? As it is written: "How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the gospel of peace, Who bring glad tidings of good things!"

The word for 'one who is sent' is 'apostellō'. This is one who is commissioned by God. Jesus does the sending. Jesus said to His disciples (Jhn 20:21) "So Jesus said to them again, 'Peace to you! As the Father has sent Me, I also send you.'"

So the apostle is sent > they preach the word > the word is heard with the ear > the person believes > the person calls on the Lord.

In this pattern shown in Romans faith comes by hearing the word being preached by one who is sent from the Lord. There are no people called 'missionaries' in the Bible. The ones who were sent were called 'apostles' for that's what 'apostle' means: one who is sent.

So, if you call yourself a missionary. Stop. There is no such calling. It is likely you go to spread the word of your particular brand of doctrine (e.g. Church of Christ, Baptist, etc.). Furthermore, if you have been sent by the church you have no power and you will have to return to 'convert' the people time and time again. On the other hand, an apostle goes because the Lord sends him. And, he goes in power and in grace to preach the word. The people will believe because the Lord send an apostle. Most importantly, the apostle is primarily accountable to the Lord, he understands this, so he is not so concerned about the evaluation of men or church boards. He represents the Lord in his work and the Lord is with him.

---

Lol, I'm up in a tree doing a little hunting and really don't have time to play..

You shur do lack Spiritual Common Sense.

So I will just snip this sillyness at the bud.

Two words.

Helen Keller.

PS Better listen to Pete and do a little more prayerful study of the KJV for yourself and stop this reliance on some sent one that you say the Lord has commissioned.

1 Peter 2:2 As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby:




--------------------
That is all.....

Posts: 8775 | From: USA, MICHIGAN | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                

quote:

---

Originally posted by WildB:


Romans 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

---

IP: Logged | 

posted                         

quote:

---

Originally posted by Caretaker:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Protective Angel:
Well without scripture, I will say this.

Some spirit speaks to me. He tells me to read areas of the bible. He shows me unusual visions.

My latest dream was me saving Superman. Superman is one I have dreamed about often. Referred to in the last movie as "savior of the world". That labeling was a shock. There are journeys in this life that lead us to where we should be. I feel I need to find my way.

I'm not trying to call myself prophet, nor do I deserve any such honor. When this Spirit speaks, I NEED TO LISTEN.

The Bible is truth and the words can be twisted wrongly.
I just want the right meaning as it is written.

---

When "the spirit" tells you to drink the kool-aid you might want to reconsider.

---

Now the Bible states...

John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.(Remembrance is not dreams or visions. Dreams or visions must be cleared by Gods Word not some lessor spirit)

John 1
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Hebrews 10:7 Then said I(Christ), Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.

THEN Peter says....

2 Peter 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

Then Pauls letter to Timothy adds.....

2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

So.....

Faith is NOT A FEELING.


Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.


MY FRIEND YOU ARE TREADING ON VERY DANGEROUS GROUND!

Because Romans teaches....

Romans 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Not by

FEELING + spirit talk + unusual visions + hodgepodge text readings.

(Definition of HODGEPODGE

: a heterogeneous mixture : jumble )

JUST FROM MY READINGS OF YOUR POST I DISCERN
THAT... You may not be born again and "if" you are
you are a babe that should be desirous of milk, not meat.

MILK before MEAT.

1 Corinthians 13:11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

This type of thing you got going,

FEELING + spirit talk + unusual visions + hodgepodge text readings.....

Is not MILK its antifreeze, sweet to the taste but very deadly to the soul.

Like Drew has said put the kool-aid down.
AND
1 Peter 2:2 As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby:

Hebrews 5:13 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe. 14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

Dear Father,

I Pray that this brother receive the Holy Spirit,
that he not be confused any longer.

In Jesus name

Amen.



--------------------
That is all.....

Posts: 8775 | From: USA, MICHIGAN | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

---

Originally posted by Protective Angel:
Well without scripture, I will say this.

Some spirit speaks to me. He tells me to read areas of the bible. He shows me unusual visions.

My latest dream was me saving Superman. Superman is one I have dreamed about often. Referred to in the last movie as "savior of the world". That labeling was a shock. There are journeys in this life that lead us to where we should be. I feel I need to find my way.

I'm not trying to call myself prophet, nor do I deserve any such honor. When this Spirit speaks, I NEED TO LISTEN.

The Bible is truth and the words can be twisted wrongly.
I just want the right meaning as it is written.

---

Posts: 3978 | From: Council Grove, KS USA | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                         

quote:

---

Originally posted by Aaron:
There must be more to the explanation than just the verb tense. It would seem, if the author was so careful to explain such a 'vital' position on apostles, he would have studied to know that his assertion about verb tense, here, is wrong. It leads one to assume that he began with a premise and sought imaginative ideas with which to make his claim true.

The phrase 'and are built' is the word ἐποικοδομέω or phonetically 'epoikodomeō'. According to the Greek dictionary it is in aorist tense. And it has this to say about it: "The aorist tense is characterized by its emphasis on punctiliar action; that is, the concept of the verb is considered without regard for past, present, or future time. There is no direct or clear English equivalent for this tense, though it is generally rendered as a simple past tense in most translations."

That's one thing.

The other is the assertion that, when Paul was writing to the Ephesians, the foundation had already been completed. The author asserts that the scriptures were the so-called 'foundation'. Yet, it is quite clear that the scriptures had not been completed at the time of Paul's letter to the Ephesians. Furthermore, Paul himself had not finished writing his portion of the scriptures let alone the other authors. If the author is to be believed one would first have to assert that the books of First and Second Timothy, Titus, and possibly Philippians, Colossians, Philemon were not part of the so-called 'foundation'. If the author is correct Paul is advocating the building of a church upon an unfinished foundation!

What I understand is what Thunder sees: the gifts are given 'till' a certain criteria is fulfilled.

Ephesians 4:
11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

The author also fails to recognize the other three gifts mentioned in this passage: evangelist, pastor, teacher. If anyone operates in any one of the five gifts here he does so by the grace of God yet in our day a person can receive those titles simply by obtaining a seminary degree.

Lastly, and this is my own assertion, the reason the believers are so dispersed and mis-aligned is precisely because the church has largely rejected the grace of the both the prophetic and apostolic. The Holy Spirit makes it very clear: gifts are given for the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry (the saints' works), for the edifying of the body of Christ. No one can be a part of this work and at the same time reject God's order for it. Because we have rejected the apostle and prophet we have been conditioned to think congregationally about the church and so we fail to accurately appraise our standing with the Lord's desires.

---

When Did the sign gifts, tongues, prophecy, the gift of healing, etc. Cease?

By Pastor Dennis Kiszonas

No one was more "charismatic" than the Apostle Paul. He wrote to the Corinthian church that "they came behind no other church" when it came to the gifts of the Holy Spirit (1 Cor. 1:7)—no church had more of the gifts of the Holy Spirit than the Corinthian church, yet Paul says that he spoke in tongues more than all of them (1 Cor. 14:18)!

No one was more charismatic than Paul, yet the Lord revealed to him that those sign gifts were going to cease:

"whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away" (1 Cor. 13:8).1

Here Paul writes of the gift of tongues, the gift of prophecy and the gift of knowledge (see 1 Cor. 13:1-2) and states that the Lord Jesus had revealed to him (1 Cor. 11:23; 15:3; Gal. 1:11,12) that a time was coming when these sign gifts were going to cease to operate.

The question has always been: when? When would these gifts cease?

This study focuses on that question—when did the sign gifts cease?

Arranging Paul's letters in the order that he wrote them

We begin by setting up a time line of Paul's ministry. Paul was saved in Acts 9 when the Lord appeared to him on the road to Damascus. Paul would go on to write 13 letters in the New Testament—from the Letter to the Romans to the Letter to Philemon. When we remember that Paul is the subject of at least half of the Book of Acts, we realize that half of the 27 books in the New Testament are either about him (The Book of Acts) or were written by him (13 letters).

Paul's letters are arranged in our Bible by two principles: The letters to the churches are put first—nine letters from Romans to 2 Thessalonians, then the four letters written to individuals—from 1 Timothy to Philemon.

The letters are also arranged by length—Romans is longest and is first, then the Corinthian letters, then Galatians, etc. Longer letters are first, shorter ones later.

But to understand when the sign gifts ceased, we need to read Paul's letters in the order that he wrote them. When we arrange the letters in the order that they were written, all becomes clear!

Paul's Letters in the order that he wrote them:

The first 6 of Paul's letters can be fit into the Book of Acts—we can read Acts and then read Paul's letters and we can see where Paul was when he wrote these letters.

The Letter to the Galatians is first

In Acts 13,14 Paul and Barnabas went on their first apostolic journey which took them into Galatia—cities like Antioch, Lystra, Derbe, etc. Soon after Paul returned from this journey he wrote the letter to the Galatians (see Galatians 1:6 where Paul writes to the Galatians and says, you are "so quickly turned."). Galatians was written soon after Paul returned from that first journey—soon after Acts 14:27. That makes Galatians the earliest of Paul's letters.

1 and 2 Thessalonians

The next letters Paul wrote are the two letters to the Thessalonians. In Acts 17, Paul, on his second apostolic journey, came to Thessalonica and preached there. Many were saved, but Paul was driven out of town. Paul continued on to Corinth where he wrote the two letters to the Thessalonians. Timothy's return from Macedonia mentioned in Acts 18:5 is also reported in 1 Thessalonians 3:6. And in 2 Thessalonians 2:5 Paul reminds the Thessalonians of his teaching, as if it had not been very long since he had been with them. So the writing of 1 and 2 Thessalonians can be placed into Acts 18 during Paul's ministry in Corinth, and that makes them the second and third letters that Paul wrote.

1 and 2 Corinthians

The next two letters that Paul wrote are the two letters to the Corinthians. In Acts 18 Paul spent a year and a half ministering in Corinth—see Acts 18:11. He later returned to his home base at Antioch (Acts 18:22), and later in his third apostolic journey he arrived in Ephesus (his ministry in Ephesus extends all the way through Acts 19—a period of more than two years, see verse 10). It is here in Ephesus during Acts 19 that Paul wrote 1 Corinthians—see I Corinthians 16:19. Shortly after that Paul traveled to Macedonia (see Acts 20:1 and 2 Cor. 2:13) and that is where he wrote the second letter to the Corinthians.

Romans

In Acts 20:2,3 Paul arrived in "Greece," i.e. in Corinth again, and spent three months there enjoying the hospitality of a believer named Gaius (mentioned in 1 Cor. 1:14). In Gaius's home, in Corinth, Paul wrote the letter to the Romans (see Rom. 16:23).

This is the last letter written during the Book of Acts. In Acts 21:33 Paul was arrested in Jerusalem, and would spend the next 5 years in prison, right through the end of the Book of Acts.

So, to sum up what we have seen so far, from Acts 9 through Acts 28 we read of the earlier ministry of the Apostle Paul and find that during these years he wrote 6 of his 13 letters. The order of these first six books is:

1. Galatians—end of Acts 14

2. 1 Thessalonians—Acts 18

3. 2 Thessalonians—Acts 18

4. 1 Corinthians—Acts 19

5. 2 Corinthians—Acts 20

6. Romans—Acts 20

In Acts 21 Paul was arrested and remained a prisoner through to Acts 28, and beyond.

The Prison Epistles—Ephesians, Colossians, Philemon, and Philippians

Shortly after the end of the Book of Acts, while he was still a prisoner, now in Rome, Paul wrote four letters—the "prison epistles": Ephesians, Colossians, Philemon and Philippians. In each of these letters he writes of his "chains"—see Ephesians 6:20, Colossians 4:18, Philemon 13 and Philippians 1:13.

The Pastoral Epistles—The letters to Titus, First and Second Timothy

Paul was released from this imprisonment and continued his ministry for a few years, perhaps 3 years. During this time he wrote the three letters known as the "Pastoral Epistles," because these letters were written to Paul's co-workers—Pastor Timothy and Titus. Finally at the end of his life he is again in prison. This time he anticipates being beheaded for the Lord and writes the last letter, Second Timothy.

Summary:

We have surveyed the 13 letters written by the Apostle Paul, arranging them in the order in which Paul wrote them:

During the Book of Acts—6 letters:

1. Galatians

2. & 3. The Thessalonian letters

4. & 5. The Corinthian letters

6. Romans

Then after the Book of Acts ends—7 more letters:

The 4 Prison Epistles:

7. Ephesians

8. Colossians

9. Philemon

10. Philippians

Then the 3 Pastoral Epistles:

11. Titus

12. 1 Timothy

13. 2 Timothy

Now let's read the letters in the order Paul wrote them

Having surveyed the 13 letters and having put them into their chronological order, let's see what they tell us about the question: when did the sign gifts cease?

In the first six letters, all written during the period covered by the Book of Acts, we find that the sign gifts were operating in all these churches. All through the Book of Acts we read of tongues, the gift of prophecy, the gift of healing, etc.—for example, tongues and prophecy in Acts 19:6, the gift of prophecy in Acts 21:10-14, the gift of healing in Acts 19:11-12 and 28:8,9, etc.

And in the "Acts Epistles" we read of the gifts operating in the churches that Paul founded. In Galatians 3:5, 1 Thessalonians 5:20, 1 Corinthians 12,13,14, 2 Corinthians 12:12, Romans 12:6—in all these letters we read about the gifts in operation right through to the end of the Book of Acts.

But, during this time in the Book of Acts, the Lord revealed to Paul that the sign gifts were going to cease—1 Corinthians 13:8-12. The gifts were all in operation all through the Book of Acts period and are mentioned in the letters written during that time, but the Lord had revealed that the sign gifts were going to cease at some time in the future.

When the gift of tongues ceased

Now we turn to the prison epistles, the four letters written shortly after the end of the Book of Acts, while Paul was a prisoner in Rome—Ephesians, Colossians, Philemon and Philippians...and we find that there is not one word about tongues, or the gift of healing. Even where we might have expected Paul to write of tongues in the passage about being "filled with the Spirit" in Ephesians 5:17, he has nothing to say about tongues. And as for the gift of healing, we read of a co-worker of Paul's, Epaphroditus, who fell seriously ill during this time (Phil. 2:25-30) and Paul no longer had the gift of healing, and was no longer able to heal as he did only a few years earlier in Acts 28:9. The sign gifts were no longer operating at the time that Paul wrote the Prison Epistles.

Tongues in the Pastoral Epistles?

In the 3 Pastoral Epistles, as in the prison epistles, we do not read of tongues or the gift of healing operating at this time. We do read of prophecies that had been made about Timothy in 1 Timothy 1:18 and 4:14 and 2 Timothy 1:6, but these were given years before. So far as we read in these three letters, we wouldn't even know that there had been a "gift of tongues."

And, again, in places where we would have expected Paul to mention the sign gifts, he is silent. When Paul gives Timothy and Titus instructions regarding the choice of men to be elders in the churches, Paul says nothing about the desirability of these men having a gift such as prophecy, or healing, or other sign gifts (see Titus 1:6-9 and 1 Tim. 3:1-10). The gifts of tongues, prophecy, etc. were no longer in operation by the time Paul wrote the pastoral epistles.

It is clear that the gift of healing has ceased because, as in Philippians, Paul was no longer able to heal, even his co-workers. Timothy was suffering stomach problems and frequent infirmities (1 Tim. 5:23) and Paul can't heal him, doesn't recommend that he go to a healer in the church, doesn't send a prayer cloth or a bottle of anointing oil (remember the miracles of some 8 years earlier in Acts 19:11-12). Likewise in 2 Timothy 4:20, Paul has to leave behind his co-worker Trophimus who had fallen sick on the last journey. Paul's gift of healing (Acts 28:9) was no longer operating in Philippians 2:27, 1 Timothy 5:23 and 2 Timothy 4:20.

Summary

The sign gifts, tongues, prophecy, the gift of healing, etc. were operating all through the Book of Acts, and these gifts are mentioned in the letters that Paul wrote during the Acts period. But when we turn to the letters written after the Book of Acts—the 4 Prison Epistles, and the 3 Pastoral Epistles, we find that the sign gifts either aren't mentioned at all or we see—as with the gift of healing—that they were no longer operating in Paul's life. What he could do in Acts 28, he could no longer do in Philippians, or in 1 and 2 Timothy. He could heal all the sick on the island in Acts 28:9, but he couldn't heal any of his closest co-workers—Timothy, Epaphroditus, Trophimus—after the close of the Book of Acts.

Arranging Paul's letters in the order that he wrote them allows us to see the pattern of truth that is found in the Word of God:

The sign gifts were operating in Acts and in all of the Acts Epistles: Galatians, 1 & 2 Thessalonians, 1 & 2 Corinthians and Romans.

But in this time period, in 1 Corinthians 13:8-12, Paul tells us that the Lord had revealed to him that these gifts would cease some day. And they did, because in the letters written after the Book of Acts, the sign gifts had ceased, just as the Lord said that they would.

The pattern could not be clearer, and the contrast could not be sharper between the earlier letters and the later letters, between the time when all the sign gifts were operating, and the time when all the sign gifts had ceased.

We can now give a scriptural answer to the question that we started with: when did the sign gifts cease?

The answer: The sign gifts ceased at the end of the Book of Acts. There is no record in Scripture of any of the sign gifts operating in any of the letters that Paul wrote after the end of the Acts period, and it is clear that the gift of healing had ceased since Paul could no longer heal even his closest co-workers after the close of the Book of Acts.

Why did the sign gifts cease?

Having seen the pattern of truth regarding the gifts, we need to ask, why did the gifts cease at this time?

Paul wrote in 1 Corinthians 13:8-12—

"Love never fails. But whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away.

"When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child; but when I became a man, I put away childish things. For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known."

The gift of tongues, prophecy and knowledge during the Acts period were only "in part"—they were incomplete, they did not communicate the full knowledge that the Lord had to reveal. But the Lord revealed to Paul that "that which is perfect" was coming. In English, as in Greek, this is a neuter pronoun—"that thing which is perfect." Paul was not writing about the coming of "He who is perfect" but of the coming of a "thing" which is perfect. When it came, then the gifts which were only "in part" would cease.

It would be like the difference between being a child and becoming a grown man, or between seeing someone's face reflected in a wavy ancient mirror, and seeing the person face-to-face.

Before the end of the Book of Acts, during the Acts period, and in the letters written during the Acts period, the Lord had only revealed part of the "dispensation of grace" (Eph. 3:2) to the Apostle Paul, but He had not yet revealed the entire message to him. It was still only "in part" during the Acts period, but with the close of the Book of Acts, the Lord completed the revelation of the "Mystery" (see Eph. 3:3,4,9 and Col. 1:26,27, etc.). "That which is perfect" was finally revealed in all its fullness to the Apostle Paul and at that moment, those things which were only "in part" passed away from God's program.

Paul wrote in 1 Corinthians 13:12—

"Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known."

When Paul wrote "now I know in part," he used the common word for "know," the Greek word gnosis.

But then, when he wrote "but then I shall know..." he changes the word from gnosis to epignosis, "to fully know."

We could paraphrase Paul's statement: "Now, as I'm writing 1 Corinthians in Acts 19, I have gnosis—I know, in part, what God's message is for us today in the dispensation of grace, but then—when that which is perfect has come—I shall have epignosis—the full knowledge of God's message of grace for us today."

All through the Book of Acts Paul had only "gnosis," partial knowledge of the message of grace, but when we turn to the Prison Letters we suddenly find Paul using that word "epignosis"—he had now received that "full knowledge" which he didn't have when he wrote to the Corinthians:

"For I want you to know what a great conflict I have for you and those in Laodicea, and for as many as have not seen my face in the flesh, that their hearts may be encouraged, being knit together in love, and attaining to all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the knowledge (epignosis—full knowledge) of the mystery of God, both of the Father and of Christ" (Col. 2:1-2).

"For this reason we also, since the day we heard it, do not cease to pray for you, and to ask that you may be filled with the knowledge (epignosis—full knowledge) of His will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding; that you may walk worthy of the Lord, fully pleasing Him, being fruitful in every good work and increasing in the knowledge of God; strengthened with all might, according to His glorious power, for all patience and longsuffering with joy; giving thanks to the Father who has qualified us to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in the light" (Col. 1:9-12).

In all the seven letters written after the close of the Book of Acts, Paul uses this word "epignosis"—the full knowledge. What he had not yet received in 1 Corinthians 13, he now has. That which is perfect had come and so the sign gifts had passed away.

The "sign gifts" were signs for God's "sign people"

The close of the Book of Acts was also the close of God's dealings with the nation of Israel for now nearly 2000 years. Acts 28:25-28 stands as God's last words to the nation of Israel for nearly two millennia. The Jews sought after signs (1 Cor. 1:22) so God gave them signs—among the Gentiles!—in order to provoke Israel to jealousy (Rom. 11:14). But with the close of Acts, God sets aside Israel for a time, and when God gave up on the "sign people" for a time, the sign gifts passed out of His program.

I speak in tongues, what should I do?

Many Christians today have had an experience that they think is the scriptural gift of tongues. After studying Paul's letters and the scriptural teaching concerning the cessation of the gift of tongues, they ask, "What should I do now?" There are several possible explanations for the experience—it may be a psychological experience or even a spiritual experience, but clearly, from the Word of God, it is not the Spirit's gift of tongues.

What should they do? Simply: Stop! Stop speaking in the tongue because it is not from the Holy Spirit.

For many this is a great relief. They've been taught that a person has to speak in tongues to prove that he is really saved, or that he really has the Holy Spirit dwelling within. So they've "learned" to speak in tongues, but when they see from Scripture that this gift is not in operation from the Lord today, they can at last cease their effort to prove their salvation and start to walk by faith and not by sight.

For some, Paul's instructions to the prophets at Corinth will be pertinent:

"If anything is revealed to another who sits by, let the first keep silent. For you can all prophesy one by one, that all may learn and all may be encouraged. And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets. For God is not the author of confusion but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints" (1 Cor. 14:30-33).

When we are having an experience that we learn from the Scriptures is not from the Lord, it is time to "keep silent," and remember that our spirits are to be under our own control—"the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets."

The Lord's warning

The Lord warned that experiences can be deceiving:

"Many will say to Me in that day, `Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?' And then I will declare to them, `I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'" (Matt. 7:22-23).

Yes, they really had had these experiences. They had prophesied in Jesus' name, they had cast out demons and done miracles in His name. The Lord does not deny that they had done these things. But then He tells them that even while they were doing these things, He had never ever known them. It is important that our faith be based on the Word of God and not on experiences because experiences can deceive us.

A note about the gift of healing

As we have seen, Paul was able to heal many sick people all through the Book of Acts. He healed every sick person on the Island of Malta in Acts 28. And he wrote to the Corinthians about the gift of healing that was operating in their church during the Acts period (1 Cor. 12:9). But we have also seen that with the close of the Book of Acts, the gift of healing ceased to operate. Paul could no longer heal anyone—not Epaphroditus in Philippians 2, not Timothy in 1 Timothy 5:23, not Trophimus in 2 Timothy 4:20. The gift of healing had ceased to operate, along with the other sign gifts.

Today God no longer gives the gift of healing, and there are no "healers." But we should not think that God Himself no longer heals! In Philippians 2 we read of a healing that God did after the gift of healing had ceased to operate:

"Yet I considered it necessary to send to you Epaphroditus, my brother, fellow worker, and fellow soldier, but your messenger and the one who ministered to my need; since he was longing for you all, and was distressed because you had heard that he was sick.

"For indeed he was sick almost unto death; but God had mercy on him, and not only on him but on me also, lest I should have sorrow upon sorrow.

"Therefore I sent him the more eagerly, that when you see him again you may rejoice, and I may be less sorrowful.

"Receive him therefore in the Lord with all gladness, and hold such men in esteem; because for the work of Christ he came close to death, not regarding his life, to supply what was lacking in your service toward me" (Phil. 2:25-30).

Paul commends Epaphroditus very highly for his faithfulness even unto death. But when Epaphroditus fell sick—near to death—Paul was no longer able to heal him because the gift of healing had ceased to operate. But we read that Epaphroditus was healed—directly by the Lord: "He was sick unto death but the Lord had mercy on him...."

There is healing today, but there is no gift of healing, there are no "divine healers." There is no gift of healing today but God still heals... sometimes. He healed Epaphroditus, but He did not heal Paul in 2 Corinthians 12:8-9 or in Galatians 4:13-15, or Timothy in 1 Timothy 5:23, or Trophimus in 2 Timothy 4:20. He heals according to His will today. But the promise that He gave to Paul is still our promise today in the dispensation of grace:

"My grace is sufficient for you, for My strength is made perfect in weakness" (2 Cor. 12:9).

Whether we are well or sick, whether we are like Epaphroditus or like Timothy, we can always claim this promise from the Lord that His grace and strength are sufficient for us. He never allows us to suffer something that He doesn't give us the strength to live through.

Endnote

1. All references have been taken from the New King James Version.



--------------------
That is all.....

Posts: 8775 | From: USA, MICHIGAN | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

---

Apostolic doctrine, therefore, is not the new and novel teachings of someone who calls himself/herself an apostle. Apostolic doctrine is the message of Jesus, His redemptive work, and His call to selfless discipleship that is found in the 27 books of the New Testament.

The "apostles' doctrine" of Acts 2:42 is a reference to the original eyewitness accounts of Jesus by the 12 apostles. This "doctrine" consisted of their first-hand reports of His life, teachings, death, and resurrection. This was, at first, an oral message spread by the Twelve and those that heard them. It was later written down in what we know as the four gospels. Paul's writings were later added to this original testimony and, with the addition of James, Jude, Hebrews, 1 & 2 Peter , 1, 2, & 3 John , and Revelation there came into existence what we know as the New Testament canon.

Canon, of course, refers to a measure or rule. As such, the twenty-seven books of the New Testament became the standard or rule against which all other teachings and revelations must be measured. Why? Because the New Testament canon contains the original, apostolic testimony and teaching. Hans Kung, the well-known Roman Catholic theologian and reformer, says,

The preaching of the apostles, as it has come down to us in the writings of the New Testament, is the original, fundamental testimony of Jesus Christ, valid for all time; being unique, it cannot be replaced or made void by any later testimony. Later generations of the Church are dependent on the words, witness and ministry of the first "apostolic" generation. The apostles are and remain the original witnesses, their testimony is the original testimony and their mission the original mission.

http://www.pneumafoundation.org/article.jsp?article=/EHyatt-WhatIsApostolicDoctrine.xml

---

Posts: 3978 | From: Council Grove, KS USA | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

---

Originally posted by Thunderz7:
Are there apostles and prophets today?

Ephesians 4:
11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

Sure looks like there are!

---

quote:

---

All these and many more scriptures show that the apostles were special men commissioned for a unique role in a particular time period for the Church. (Ephesians 2:20) “Having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets…Notice past tense, been built. Once a foundation is laid it does not need to be laid down again, it is built upon “ It was upon these men the apostles and prophets that the foundation the church was built on, Jesus Christ himself being the chief cornerstone. Those who claim apostolic authority today are attempting to rebuild the church whose foundation was already laid and built . Later on in Eph.4:11 Paul writes, “and he himself gave some to be apostles and prophets, some evangelists and some pastors and teachers…” he does not say he keeps on giving apostles and prophets for the simple reason formerly stated they were the foundation of the church. Paul makes no distinction of what is continued or what is not in this passage. Anything mentioned in Eph.4:11 must be in light of the former statement in 2:20 of the apostles and prophets laying down the foundation in the past tense (foundation in the scriptures for us to come to the unity of the faith.) We do see Pastors and teachers continue as they are not supernatural offices or sign gifts but leaders and rulers over the congregations after the apostles were gone. The Apostles wrote down the teachings for the Church to follow. If their are apostles today in the sense of the Church’s beginnings there would have to be new revelation. This would have to be included as Scripture because apostolic revelation is authoritative and infallible. It would then be on the same level as our Bible. This is what the Mormon church claims and many other cult groups. To say we have modern day apostles like Matthew and Paul is to say Scripture is continually being written which means rejecting the former revelation of the apostles given by Jesus. As John writes in his 1st epistle 1:1-4 “That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, concerning the Word of life-- the life was manifested, and we have seen, and bear witness, and declare to you that eternal life which was with the Father and was manifested to us-- that which we have seen and heard we declare to you, that you also may have fellowship with us; and truly our fellowship is with the Father and with His Son Jesus Christ. And these things we write to you that your joy may be full.”

http://www.letusreason.org/pent1.htm

---

Posts: 3978 | From: Council Grove, KS USA | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

---

Originally posted by Protective Angel:
Well then Caretaker,
Are you calling the prophet Joel a liar?

The Bible is clear.

---

quote:

---

.

The Apostles set position were authenticated by the miraculous. Acts 3:3-11Peter healed the crippled man at the gate of the Temple as well as others. (Acts 5:15-16) Paul had also brought Eutychus back to life after he had fallen to his death (Acts 20:6-12). No apostolic miracles were ever performed in the apostolic era by anyone other than the apostles and those who were commissioned by them, showing this office was unique to its time.

It is also worth pointing out that the apostles were limited on the miracles they performed; none of them ever fed five thousand as Jesus did, nor did they ever walk on water or translocate into a room on their own. Yet they did do unusual healings and miracles and resurrect people, which was also the last sign Jesus said would be given to the unbelieving generation at that time. Today it seems we are again surrounded by unbelief, even in the church, because so many are following those who do signs and wonders. Jesus said it was an evil and adulterous generation that seeks after a sign and a wonder. Today our generation is repeating the same error as the unbelieving Jews except it supposedly from believers.

The apostles never preached signs and wonders to attract the multitudes much less those who already believe. Seeing a sign was never a assurance of belief.

We are warned of false apostles those who claim authority that is not from God and can do miracles. In much the same way as the false prophets God told Jeremiah,” I have not sent them or spoken to them.”

With all this in mind Paul did not use the signs and miracles as the absolute proof of his apostolic position.

http://www.letusreason.org/pent1.htm

---

Posts: 3978 | From: Council Grove, KS USA | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

---

APOSTLES AND PROPHETS TODAY

There are those who claim to be apostles and prophets by their own word. Others claim it by showing their signs, wonders and miracles. This so-called signs and wonders movement is part of an effort to restore what they understood to be the five-fold ministry described in Ephesians 4:11. The proliferators of the movement claim that these dynamics are what is necessary for the church to have power. In actuality, those who lay claim to this ministry today are operating under a misunderstanding of apostles and prophets of the Bible. The Lord confirmed His signs to the apostles' words to show a transition of authority from Israel and its priesthood to the apostles who were laying down the foundation for the church, a new entity. This unique anointing testified to Israel and to the gentiles a new order of leadership, the demonstration of spiritual authority was transferred to the church Christ body. Becoming aware of what the Bible says about these positions in the early church can help us guard against misleading teachings in the church today.

Validated by signs and miracles, the apostles deemed the faith for the whole Church and established the written word by inspiration of the Holy Spirit. Once the scriptures were completed, the Church had all that was necessary in the area of revelational truth. The apostles' instructions were in words, then put to paper for all succeeding generations on how to live in obedience to the faith.

Once a foundation is laid down and a house is built, we don't rebuild the foundation.(Eph.2:20) Neither should we rip apart the house that the Lord has built.

http://www.letusreason.org/pent1.htm

---

Posts: 3978 | From: Council Grove, KS USA | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

---

To understand any word, one must penetrate to its root origins, its etymology. For the word "prophet" it is especially important since it communicates an ancient concept and translates a Biblical Hebrew word. The English word is taken directly from an ancient Greek noun which literally meant "to speak for" or "on behalf of." Thus the noun embraced the concept of speaking for someone, or a spokesman. The story of Moses at the burning bush is a good Biblical illustration, when in Exodus 7: 1 God argues with the reluctant Moses, saying, "See, I make you as God to Pharaoh; and Aaron your brother shall be your prophet." Aaron was to be Moses' spokesman, or to speak for Moses.

For centuries the meaning "spokesman," or "proclaimer," was the primary use of the Greek and later the English. In 1615, for instance, Jeremy Taylor wrote a book entitled, "The Liberty of Prophesying." Today its contents would be titled "The Freedom of Preaching." for that was the subject matter. Our word "prophet and the ancient Greek meant, therefore, what "preacher'' means today - one who is a spokesman for God. To see how the word was applied in the Bible to the spokesmen for God, read such Biblical passages as Deuteronomy 18:15-20; Amos 3:7-8, 10-16; Isaiah 6:8-10; Jeremiah 20: 7-9, and Ezekiel 3: 16-21.

http://www.orthodoxresearchinstitute.org/articles/bible/trevor_biblical_prophecy.htm

---

Posts: 3978 | From: Council Grove, KS USA | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged |