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Author
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Topic: A closer look at the Trinity
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Carol Swenson
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What is the doctrine of Eternal Sonship and is it Biblical?
The doctrine of eternal Sonship simply affirms that the second Person of the triune Godhead has eternally existed as the Son. In other words, there was never a time when He was not the Son of God, and there has always been a Father/Son relationship within the Godhead. This doctrine recognizes that the idea of Sonship is not merely a title or role that Christ assumed at some specific point in history, but that it is the essential identity of the second Person of the Godhead. According to this doctrine, Christ is and always has been the Son of God.
Yes, the eternal Sonship is biblical and is a view that is widely held among Christians and has been throughout church history. It is important, however, to remember when discussing the doctrine of eternal Sonship that there are evangelical Christians on both sides of this debate. This is not to say that this is not an important doctrine, because it is; it simply acknowledges the fact that there are orthodox or evangelical Christians that hold or have held both views. Those that deny the doctrine of eternal Sonship are not denying the triune nature of God or the deity or eternality of Christ, and those that embrace the eternal Sonship of Christ are not inferring that Jesus Christ was anything less than fully God.
Throughout church history the doctrine of eternal Sonship has been widely held, with most Christians believing that Jesus existed as God’s eternal Son before creation. It is affirmed in the Nicene Creed (325 A.D.) which states: "We believe in one God, the Father, the Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, of all that is, seen and unseen. We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only Son of God, eternally begotten of the Father, God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, begotten, not made, of one Being with the Father. Through him all things were made. For us and for our salvation he came down from heaven: by the power of the Holy Spirit he became incarnate from the Virgin Mary, and was made man. For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate; he suffered death and was buried. On the third day he rose again in accordance with the Scriptures; he ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father. He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead, and his kingdom will have no end." It was also later reaffirmed in the fifth century in the Athanasian Creed.
There is considerable biblical evidence to support the eternal Sonship of Christ. First of all, there are many passages that clearly identify that it was “the Son” who created all things (Colossians 1:13-16; Hebrews 1:2), thereby strongly implying that Christ was the Son of God at the time of creation. When one considers these passages, it seems clear that the most normal and natural meaning of the passages is that at the time of creation Jesus was the Son of God, the second Person of the Triune Godhead, thus supporting the doctrine of eternal Sonship.
Second, there are numerous verses that speak of God the Father sending the Son into the world to redeem sinful man (John 20:21; Galatians 4:4; 1 John 4:14; 1 John 4:10) and giving His Son as a sacrifice for sin (John 3:16). Clearly implied in all the passages that deal with the Father sending/giving the Son is the fact that He was the Son before He was sent into the world. This is even more clearly seen in Galatians 4:4-6, where the term “sent forth” is used both of the Son and the Spirit. Just as the Holy Spirit did not become the Holy Spirit when He was sent to empower the believers at Pentecost, neither did the Son become the Son at the moment of His incarnation. All three Persons of the Triune Godhead have existed for all eternity, and their names reveal who they are, not simply what their title or function is.
Third, 1 John 3:8 speaks of the appearance or manifestation of the Son of God: “the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, that He might destroy the works of the devil.” The verb “to make manifest” or “appeared” means to make visible or to bring to light something that was previously hidden. The idea communicated in this verse is not that the second Person of the trinity became the Son of God, but that the already existing Son of God was made manifest or appeared in order to fulfill God’s predetermined purpose. This idea is also seen in other verses such as John 11:27 and 1 John 5:20.
Fourth, Hebrews 13:8 teaches that “Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today, yes and forever.” This verse again seems to support the doctrine of eternal Sonship. The fact that Jesus’ divine nature is unchanging would seem to indicate that He was always the Son of God because that is an essential part of His Person. At the incarnation Jesus took on human flesh, but His divine nature did not change, nor did His relationship with the Father. This same truth is also implied in John 20:31, where we see John’s purpose in writing his gospel was so that we might “believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name.” It does not say that He became the Son of God but that He is the Son of God. The fact that Jesus was and is the Son of God is an essential aspect of Who He is and His work in redemption.
Finally, one of the strongest evidences for the eternal Sonship of Christ is the triune nature of God and the eternal relationship that exists among the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Particularly important is the unique Father/Son relationship that can only be understood from the aspect of Christ’s eternal Sonship. This relationship is key to understanding the full measure of God’s love for those whom He redeems through the blood of Christ. The fact that God the Father took His Son, the very Son He loved from before the foundation of the world, and sent Him to be a sacrifice for our sins is an amazing act of grace and love that is best understood from the doctrine of eternal Sonship.
One verse that speaks of the eternal relationship between the Father and Son is John 16:28. "I came forth from the Father, and have come into the world; I am leaving the world again, and going to the Father." Implied in this verse is again the fact that the Father/Son relationship between God the Father and God the Son is one that always has and always will exist. At His incarnation the Son “came from the Father” in the same sense as upon His resurrection He returned “to the Father.” Implied in this verse is the fact that if Jesus was the Son after the resurrection, then He was also the Son prior to His incarnation. Other verses that support the eternal Sonship of Christ would include John 17:5 and John 17:24, which speak of the Father’s love for the Son from “before the foundation of the world.”
After one considers the many arguments for the doctrine of eternal Sonship, it should become clear that this is indeed a biblical doctrine that finds much support in Scripture. However, that is not to imply that arguments cannot be made against the doctrine as well, or that all Christians will agree to this doctrine. While it has been the view of the majority of Christian commentators throughout history, there have been several prominent Christians on the other side of the issue as well.
Those that deny the doctrine of eternal Sonship would instead hold to a view that is often referred to as the Incarnational Sonship, which teaches that while Christ preexisted, He was not always the Son of God. Those that hold this view believe Christ became the Son of God at some point in history, with the most common view being that Christ became the Son at His incarnation. However, there are others who believe Christ did not become the Son until sometime after His incarnation, such as at His baptism, His resurrection, or His exaltation. It is important to realize that those who deny the eternal Sonship of Christ still recognize and affirm His deity and His eternality.
Those who hold this view see the Sonship of Christ as not being an essential part of Who He is, but instead see it as simply being a role or a title or function that Christ assumed at His incarnation. They also teach that the Father became the Father at the time of the incarnation. Throughout history many conservative Christians have denied the doctrine of eternal Sonship. Some examples would include Ralph Wardlaw, Adam Clarke, Albert Barnes, Finis J. Dake, Walter Martin, and at one time John MacArthur. It is important to note, however, that several years ago John MacArthur changed his position on this doctrine and he now affirms the doctrine of eternal Sonship.
One of the verses commonly used to support Incarnational Sonship is Hebrews 1:5, which appears to speak of God the Father’s begetting of God the Son as an event that takes place at a specific point in time: “Thou art My Son, Today I have begotten Thee. And again. I will be a Father to Him. And He shall be a Son to Me.” Those who hold to the doctrine of incarnational Sonship point out two important aspects of this verse. 1—that “begetting” normally speaks of a person’s origin, and 2—that a Son is normally subordinate to his father. They reject the doctrine of eternal Sonship in an attempt to preserve the perfect equality and eternality of the Persons of the Triune Godhead. In order to do so, they must conclude that “Son” is simply a title or function that Christ took on at His incarnation and that “Sonship” refers to the voluntary submission that Christ to the Father at His incarnation (Philippians 2:5-8; John 5:19).
Some of the problems with the Incarnational Sonship of Christ are that this teaching confuses or destroys the internal relationships that exist within the Trinity, because if the Son is not eternally begotten by the Father, then neither did the Spirit eternally proceed from the Father through the Son. Also, if there is no Son prior to the incarnation, then there is no Father either; and yet throughout the Old Testament we see God being referred to as the Father of Israel. Instead of having a triune God eternally existing in three distinct Persons with three distinct names, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, those who hold to the doctrine of incarnational Sonship end up with a nameless Trinity prior to the incarnation, and we would be forced to say that God has chosen not to reveal Himself as He truly is, but only as He was to become. In other words, instead of actually revealing who He is, the Triune God instead chose to reveal Himself by the titles He would assume or the roles that He would take on and not who He really is. This is dangerously close to modalism and could easily lead to false teachings about the nature of God. One of the weaknesses of the doctrine of incarnational Sonship is that the basic relationships existing among the members of the Trinity are confused and diminished. Taken to its logical conclusion, denying the eternal Sonship of Christ reduces the Trinity from the relationship of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit to simply Number One, Number Two and Number Three Persons—with the numbers themselves being an arbitrary designation, destroying the God-given order and relationship that exists among the Persons of the Trinity.
http://www.gotquestions.org/eternal-Sonship.html 
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Carol Swenson
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quote:
Originally posted by John Hale:
Jesus is eternal in his Spirit (existing with neither a beginning or an end). But his body did not exist from all eternity past as his Spirit did. The time / progression references in Hebrew 1 which I highlighted in bold type indicate there was a time when the body of Jesus did not exist and that it was created / begotten by the Father.
AND...
There was a time when the Son was not the Son and the Father not the Father by the use of those same time / progression references in Hebrews 1.
Jesus is God in flesh. This is why there are references to God and Jesus Christ...
John 17:3 (KJV)
3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
This is not a proof text like the JW's like to use for example to undeify Jesus... No. This is saying Jesus is God but also has a second nature that God (the Father or the Spirit) do not have.
There is a part of Jesus that was in fact created. His body. Created in the same sinless state Adam was before the fall. God the Word truly became one of us to be our kinsman redeemer.
THOU ART MY SON TODAY I HAVE BEGOTTEN THEE
Oneness Pentecostals believe the sonship began at the birth of Jesus.
In his book The Oneness Of God David K. Bernard writes that the phrase 'Eternal Son' is incorrect, "thus begotten indicates a definite point in time- the point at which conception takes place. By definition the begetter (Father) always must come before the begotten (Offspring). There must be a time when the begetter exists and the begotten is not yet in existence...So the words begotten and Son each contradict the word eternal as applied to the Son of God." Quoting the phrase from Hebrews 1:5-6, he states it is a matter of time, "The Son was begotten on a specific day in time; there was a time when the Son did not exist;"(pp.103-105) If this is so then there was a time when the Father did not exist either, because to be called a Father means one has a Son.
"Jesus is the Son of God because he was conceived by the Spirit of God, making God his literal father."(P. 101)
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Carol Swenson
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From the perspective of The Bible, a type was a model or symbol of something or someone that would exist at a future time. The later person or thing was called the antitype. There are many types and antitypes found throughout Bible History and Prophecy. For example, Aaron and Jesus Christ are the type and antitype for the high priest who made atonement for the sins of the people.
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The noun ANTITYPE has 2 senses:
1. a person or thing represented or foreshadowed by a type or symbol; especially a figure in the Old Testament having a counterpart in the New Testament
2. an opposite or contrasting type
The Bible antitype is only about the first sense ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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Christ is called the last Adam.
1 Cor 15:45
“The first man Adam became a living soul. The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.”
The reference to Adam is from Gen 2:7; the reference to Christ is due to the fact of what He had done and is doing in His manifestation as Divine Redeemer.
Romans states that Adam was a type of Christ.
Romans 5:14 - 17 (NASB)
Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come. But the free gift is not like the transgression. For if by the transgression of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many. The gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned; for on the one hand the judgment arose from one transgression resulting in condemnation, but on the other hand the free gift arose from many transgressions resulting in justification. For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.
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Marlene
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Wild Bill and Carol, you guys are too cute! lol.
Thank you for the information Carol. It’s a wonderful guideline. The idea of there being different “types of Christ” is a new concept for me, and it promises to be one that I will ponder for some time! The Bible gains a different perspective in looking at it in this way. For instance, I’ve always thought of Christ as being the anti-Adam, in the sense that he removed eternal death, which was our inheritance from Adam. In looking at Adam in relation to Christ rather than Christ in relation to Adam, we see them both in a different light.
There are many parallels between the Old and the New Testaments, and this discussion has been the perfect bridge between the two.
![[Bible]](graemlins/bible.gif)
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Carol Swenson
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Hi Marlene ![[wave3]](graemlins/18.gif)
quote:
Originally posted by Marlene:
I don’t know if I’m off in the wrong direction, but my mind wants to draw a parallel between Moses and the old covenant and the Apostle John and the new covenant. The Apostle John was to Jesus in the NT as the prophet Moses was to God/Jesus in the OT?
Jeremiah 31:31-34 OT seems to be a prophecy that refers to the Holy Spirit:
(31)Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
(32)Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
(33) But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in the inward parts, and write it in the hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
(34)And they shall teach no more, every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
The new covenant in Christ aimed at correcting the weak link of disobedience. And that was begun by putting the law of God into the human heart by means of the interior regeneration of the human soul. The law was place inside (Jer. 31:33-34). God had told Israel to put his will into their hearts:
Deut. 6:4-6
(4) Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:
(5)And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.
(6)And these words, which I command thee this day, shall be in thine heart:
However, God’s people always had a bad habit of doing what he did not like. Adam ate the fruit. Abraham lied. Moses got angry. The nation of Israel grumbled and complained. David committed murder and adultery. Solomon supported idolatry. Peter denied his LORD. Church after church continued to fall prey to pride, bickering and lapses in faith. Even in the face of God’s great redemptive events from the Exodus to the Cross, his people persisted in falling down on their responsibility to respond in gratitude and obedience. However, with the new covenant in Christ, God’s will has been written on the heart of every man.
The Old Testament promised the fulfillment of the promises to Abraham: a restored earth and people enjoying God’s unhindered presence and blessing. And the new covenant is the means for fulfilling those promises.
Tyndale Concise Bible Commentary (unfortunately, I am still a novice )
The Old Testament is filled with types, foreshadows, and prophecies of the New Testament. God's plan of redemption was in place before he even created the world.
Moses is said to be a type of Christ.
Here are more types of Christ:
Individuals
a. Adam: his headship over a new creation (Gen. 1:28; Rom. 5:17-19; 1 Cor. 15:22, 45, 47; Heb. 2:7-9).
b. Moses: his prophetical ministry (Deut. 18:15-18; Heb. 3:5, 6).
c. Melchizedek: his priestly ministry (Gen. 14:18-20; Ps. 110:4; Heb. 5-8).
d. David: his kingly ministry (2 Sam. 7:1-17; Mk. 11:10; Rev. 5:5; 22:16).
e. Jeremiah: his sorrows (Jer. 3:20; 5:1-5; 8:20-22; 9:1; 10:19; 11:19).
f. Joseph: his sufferings (most perfect type of Christ in Old Testament).
(1) Hated without a cause (Gen. 37:4, 8; Jn. 15:25).
(2) Ridiculed (Gen. 37:19; Lk. 22:63).
(3) Plotted against (Gen. 37:20; Jn. 11:53).
(4) Stripped of his robe (Gen. 37:23; Jn. 19:23, 24).
(5) Sold for silver (Gen. 37:28; Mt. 26:14-16).
(6) Lied about (Gen. 39:14; Mt. 26:61).
(7) Placed in captivity with two guilty men (Gen. 40:1-3; Lk. 23:32, 33).
(8) Unrecognized by his own (Gen. 42:8; Jn. 1:11).
g. Isaac: his death (Gen. 22:2, 8, 10; Mt. 26:36, 42, 43).
h. Jonah: his resurrection (Jonah 1:17; Mt. 12:40; 16:4; Lk. 11:29).
i. Joshua: his victorious life (Josh. 1:3, 5, 6, 8, 9; Jn. 10:17, 18; 19:30).
j. Noah: his saving life (Gen. 6:13, 14, 17, 18; 1 Pet. 3:18-22).
k. Abraham: his father (Gen. 22:7, 8; Mt. 26:36, 42, 43).
1. Daniel: his acceptance by the Father (Dan. 9:23; 10:11, 19; Mt. 3:17; 17:5).
m. Elijah: his forerunner (Isa. 40:3, 4; Mt. 17:11, 12).
n. Elisha: his miracles: Elisha performed fourteen miracles, nearly double those of any other Old Testament man except Moses (2 Ki. 2:9; Jn. 3:2).
o. Ezekiel: his parables. There are sixty-nine parables in the Old Testament; twenty-three are to be found in Ezekiel’s book alone (Ezek. 17:2; 20:49; Mt. 13:3).
p. Ruth: his church (Ruth 2, 3, 4; 2 Cor. 11:2).
q. Boaz: his love for the church (Ruth 2, 3, 4; Eph. 5:25-27).
r. Ezra: his zeal for the Scriptures (Neh. 8; Mt. 21:42; 22:29; Mk. 12:10, 24; Lk. 4:21; 24:27; Jn. 10:35).
s. Nehemiah: his zeal for the Holy City (Neh. 1, 2; Mt. 23:37-39; Lk. 19:41).
t. Solomon: his wisdom (1 Ki. 3:11-13; Lk. 4:22; Jn. 7:46).
u. Lot: his backslidden followers (Gen. 19; 2 Pet. 2:7).
v. Absalom: his opposition
(1) From Judas. Absalom was a betrayer and member of David’s inner circle, as was Judas of Jesus’ inner circle (2 Sam. 15; Mt. 26:14).
(2) From the coming antichrist. Absalom plotted against the Davidic throne, as will the antichrist (2 Sam. 15; Rev. 13).
Brute Creatures
a. Lamb (Ex. 29:38; Jn. 1:29).
b. Dove (Lev. 5:11; Lk. 2:24).
c. Eagle (Ex. 19:4; Mt. 23:37).
d. Lion (Hosea 11:10; Rev. 5:5).
e. Sheep (Lev. 1:10; Isa. 53:7).
f. Heifer (Gen. 15:9; Num. 19).
g. Scapegoat (Lev. 16).
h. Ram (Gen. 22:13).
i. Pigeon (Gen. 15:9; Lev. 5:11).
j. Ox (Num. 7:87).
k. Bullock (Ex. 29:11).
l. Serpent (Num. 21:8, 9; Jn. 3:14).
Events
a. The coats of skin (Gen. 3:21).
b. The Passover (Ex. 12; 1 Cor. 5:7, 8).
c. The sacrifice on the day of atonement (Lev. 16).
d. The giving of manna (Ex. 16:14-22; Jn. 6).
e. The ark and the flood (Gen. 6–8; 1 Pet. 3:18-22).
f. The striking of the rock (Ex. 17:5-7; 1 Cor. 10:4).
g. The passage through the Red Sea (Ex. 14; 1 Cor. 10:1, 2).
h. The two memorials (Josh. 4).
i. The branch cast into the waters at Marah (Ex. 15:23-26).
Feasts
a. The Passover feast. Speaks of Calvary (Lev. 23:4-8; 1 Cor. 5:7).
b. The feast of firstfruits. Speaks of the resurrection (Lev. 23:9-14; 1 Cor. 15:23).
c. The feast of Pentecost. Speaks of the coming of the Holy Spirit (Lev. 23:15-22; Acts 2:1-4).
d. The feast of trumpets. Speaks of the rapture and Second Coming (Lev. 23:23-25; 1 Thess. 4:13-18).
e. The day of atonement feast. Speaks of the tribulation (Lev. 23:26-32; Rev. 6–19).
f. The feast of tabernacles. Speaks of the millennium (Lev. 23:33-44; Rev. 20:1-6).
The Offerings
a. The burnt offering (Lev. 1). Speaks of Christ’s willingly offering himself.
b. The meal offering (Lev. 2). Speaks of his purity and sinlessness.
c. The peace offering (Lev. 3). Speaks of his accomplishments on the cross.
d. The sin offering (Lev. 4). Speaks of his dealing with sin’s guilt.
e. The trespass offering (Lev. 5). Speaks of his dealing with sin’s injury.
The Buildings
a. The tabernacle (Ex. 40).
b. The Temple (1 Ki. 8).
(Willmington's)
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Carol Swenson
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The Trinity
They are not three roles played by one person (that is modalism), nor are they three gods in a cluster (that is tritheism); the one God (“he”) is also, and equally, “they,” and “they” are always together and always cooperating, with the Father initiating, the Son complying, and the Spirit executing the will of both, which is his will also. This is the truth about God that was revealed through the words and works of Jesus, and that undergirds the reality of salvation as the New Testament sets it forth.
The practical importance of the doctrine of the Trinity is that it requires us to pay equal attention, and give equal honor, to all three persons in the unity of their gracious ministry to us. That ministry is the subject matter of the gospel, which, as Jesus’ conversation with Nicodemus shows, cannot be stated without bringing in their distinct roles in God’s plan of grace (John 3:1-15; note especially vv. 3, 5-8, 13-15, and John’s expository comments, which NIV renders as part of the conversation itself, vv. 16-21). All non-Trinitarian formulations of the Christian message are by biblical standards inadequate and indeed fundamentally false, and will naturally tend to pull Christian lives out of shape.
(Concise Theology)
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Carol Swenson
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quote:
Originally posted by John Hale:
This is why I give little credence to commentaries, commentators, etc. beyond initial use perhaps in one's novice education of the Bible / God. Not that I am slamming you, Carol as a novice. I am just saying those materials have their usefulness in that time frame but after wards they become crutches to lean on.
God wants us to soar under his wings by learning how to heed (prove) the testimony of the Holy Spirit who wrote the Bible and who leads us to all truth.
The crutches and wheel chairs of human commentary or schools of thought thus fall away and we stand and are lifted up into the sky of God's understanding and his will...
I pray all can strip away those shackles and be free in the Spirit of Christ.
Most of the time when someone tells us not to use Bible dictionaries and commentaries, etc., what they really mean is, "Don't listen to them. Listen to me instead."
I always say no. Real Bible scholars and their works are gifts from Christ.
Ephesians 4:7 - 12 (NASB)
7But to each one of us grace was given according to the measure of Christ’s gift. 8Therefore it says, “When He ascended on high, He led captive a host of captives, And He gave gifts to men.” 9(Now this expression, “He ascended,” what does it mean except that He also had descended into the lower parts of the earth? 10He who descended is Himself also He who ascended far above all the heavens, so that He might fill all things.)
11And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers, 12for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ
You say we should listen to the Holy Spirit? I absolutely agree! And the Holy Spirit tells me to shy away from people who would try to discredit real Bible scholars in favor of their own eisegesis.
quote:
Originally posted by John Hale:
quote:
Originally posted by Carol Swenson:
quote:
Originally posted by John Hale:
If you read this carefully, it is a testimony to the fact that no one on earth ever heard from the Father (so all man's dealings with God and the LORD of the Old Testament was with the preincarnate Jesus (or actually God the Word).
Hebrews 1:1-2 (KJV)
1 God (the Trinity), who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son (the incarnation of God the Word), whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he (God the Trinity) made the worlds;
John 5:37 (KJV)
37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.
Exodus 33:17 - 23 (NASB)
The LORD said to Moses, “I will also do this thing of which you have spoken; for you have found favor in My sight and I have known you by name.” Then Moses said, “I pray You, show me Your glory!” And He said, “I Myself will make all My goodness pass before you, and will proclaim the name of the LORD before you; and I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will show compassion on whom I will show compassion.” But He said, “You cannot see My face, for no man can see Me and live!” Then the LORD said, “Behold, there is a place by Me, and you shall stand there on the rock; and it will come about, while My glory is passing by, that I will put you in the cleft of the rock and cover you with My hand until I have passed by. Then I will take My hand away and you shall see My back, but My face shall not be seen.”
Um, what in the text makes you think this is the one who became the Father (John 1:14, Hebrews 1:5-6, Hebrews 10:5-7)?
Why is this not the one who became the Son (John 1:14, Hebrews 1:5-6, Hebrews 10:5-7)?
NASB Concordance
20But He saidH559, “You cannotH3201-H3808 seeH7200 My faceH6440, for noH3808 manH120 can seeH7200 Me and liveH2421a!”
21Then the LORDH3068 saidH559, “BeholdH2009, there is a placeH4725 by Me, and you shall standH5324 there on the rockH6697;
22and it will comeH1961 about, while My gloryH3519b is passingH5674a by, that I will putH7760 you in the cleftH5366 of the rockH6697 and coverH7917b you with My handH3709 untilH5704 I have passedH5674a by.
23“Then I will takeH5493 My handH3709 awayH5493 and you shall seeH7200 My backH268, but My faceH6440 shall not be seenH7200.”
H3068
יְהֹוָה
yehôvâh
BDB Definition:
Jehovah = “the existing One”
1) the proper name of the one true God
1a) unpronounced except with the vowel pointings of H136
Part of Speech: noun proper deity
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WildB
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Stand Fast Always!
lu2
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That is all.....
Posts: 8775 | From: USA, MICHIGAN | Registered: Mar 2004
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WildB
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k-sorry
![[Kiss]](graemlins/Kiss.gif)
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Carol Swenson
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John
quote:
???
I am doing my best to understand and or ignore the prodding, poking, even veiled threats at times... but what is all this about, Carol?
I think the cold weather got to WB... I dunno...
I can't speak for WildB, John. But I can tell you this: Unlike most people, he's a three dimensional thinker; with him you have to really THINK, not just react with ego.
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WildB
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Chaff is deployed, donky boy. LOL!
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John Hale
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Just the right attitude and conscience towards a Holy God.
How's yours? Is God your buddy? Your genie in a bottle to bow to your every whim?
Or are you also a servant of God by his grace and not any merit of your own (which no man or woman could actually claim to have)?
I ask you.
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WildB
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unworthy servant of the Most High God?
Hum So what makes you so unworthy?
Adam?
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Posts: 8775 | From: USA, MICHIGAN | Registered: Mar 2004
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John Hale
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quote:
Originally posted by WildB:
Profile for John Hale
Member Status: Advanced Member
Member Number: 8034
Registered: February 07, 2010
Posts: 604
Occupation: unworthy servant of the Most High God
Have you placed your faith in Jesus Christ?: Yes
Are you a male or female?: male
Note: Member ratings are not currently permitted on this message board. John Hale: Add to Your Ignore List | Add to Your Buddy List
THATS FOR SHUR....LOL
![[cool_shades]](graemlins/cool_shades.gif)
???
I am doing my best to understand and or ignore the prodding, poking, even veiled threats at times... but what is all this about, Carol?
I think the cold weather got to WB... I dunno...
[ February 27, 2011, 09:53 PM: Message edited by: Carol Swenson ]
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WildB
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Profile for John Hale
Member Status: Advanced Member
Member Number: 8034
Registered: February 07, 2010
Posts: 604
Occupation: unworthy servant of the Most High God
Have you placed your faith in Jesus Christ?: Yes
Are you a male or female?: male
Note: Member ratings are not currently permitted on this message board. John Hale: Add to Your Ignore List | Add to Your Buddy List
THATS FOR SHUR....LOL
[ February 27, 2011, 09:53 PM: Message edited by: Carol Swenson ]
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Posts: 8775 | From: USA, MICHIGAN | Registered: Mar 2004
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WildB
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quote:
Originally posted by John Hale:
quote:
Originally posted by Marlene:
I don’t know if I’m off in the wrong direction, but my mind wants to draw a parallel between Moses and the old covenant and the Apostle John and the new covenant. The Apostle John was to Jesus in the NT as the prophet Moses was to God/Jesus in the OT?
Jeremiah 31:31-34 OT seems to be a prophecy that refers to the Holy Spirit:
(31)Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
(32)Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
(33) But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in the inward parts, and write it in the hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
(34)And they shall teach no more, every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
The new covenant in Christ aimed at correcting the weak link of disobedience. And that was begun by putting the law of God into the human heart by means of the interior regeneration of the human soul. The law was place inside (Jer. 31:33-34). God had told Israel to put his will into their hearts:
Deut. 6:4-6
(4) Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:
(5)And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.
(6)And these words, which I command thee this day, shall be in thine heart:
However, God’s people always had a bad habit of doing what he did not like. Adam ate the fruit. Abraham lied. Moses got angry. The nation of Israel grumbled and complained. David committed murder and adultery. Solomon supported idolatry. Peter denied his LORD. Church after church continued to fall prey to pride, bickering and lapses in faith. Even in the face of God’s great redemptive events from the Exodus to the Cross, his people persisted in falling down on their responsibility to respond in gratitude and obedience. However, with the new covenant in Christ, God’s will has been written on the heart of every man.
The Old Testament promised the fulfillment of the promises to Abraham: a restored earth and people enjoying God’s unhindered presence and blessing. And the new covenant is the means for fulfilling those promises.
Tyndale Concise Bible Commentary (unfortunately, I am still a novice )
There is no shame in this... LOL so long as you set out to become so acquainted with the Holy Spirit you no longer need the props / crutches...
Personally... I think of Daniel and John being closer to likeness for several reasons... but that's just me. I am sure there are numerous prophetic and similar parallels in scripture. Paul mentioned to Timothy about doing what he was prophesied to do... when I have time I'll track this down...
Ecclesiastes 1:9 (NASB95)
9 That which has been is that which will be, And that which has been done is that which will be done. So there is nothing new under the sun.
What side of the water are U looking, LOL!
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Carol Swenson
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quote:
So, what you / Unger are saying is that God the Word is a vessel or imagery a figure of speech that has a beginning (meaning there was a time in eternity past when God the Word simply did not exist)... is this what you / Unger are saying?
That isn't at all what it says. Not even close.
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John Hale
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quote:
Originally posted by Marlene:
I don’t know if I’m off in the wrong direction, but my mind wants to draw a parallel between Moses and the old covenant and the Apostle John and the new covenant. The Apostle John was to Jesus in the NT as the prophet Moses was to God/Jesus in the OT?
Jeremiah 31:31-34 OT seems to be a prophecy that refers to the Holy Spirit:
(31)Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
(32)Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
(33) But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in the inward parts, and write it in the hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
(34)And they shall teach no more, every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
The new covenant in Christ aimed at correcting the weak link of disobedience. And that was begun by putting the law of God into the human heart by means of the interior regeneration of the human soul. The law was place inside (Jer. 31:33-34). God had told Israel to put his will into their hearts:
Deut. 6:4-6
(4) Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:
(5)And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.
(6)And these words, which I command thee this day, shall be in thine heart:
However, God’s people always had a bad habit of doing what he did not like. Adam ate the fruit. Abraham lied. Moses got angry. The nation of Israel grumbled and complained. David committed murder and adultery. Solomon supported idolatry. Peter denied his LORD. Church after church continued to fall prey to pride, bickering and lapses in faith. Even in the face of God’s great redemptive events from the Exodus to the Cross, his people persisted in falling down on their responsibility to respond in gratitude and obedience. However, with the new covenant in Christ, God’s will has been written on the heart of every man.
The Old Testament promised the fulfillment of the promises to Abraham: a restored earth and people enjoying God’s unhindered presence and blessing. And the new covenant is the means for fulfilling those promises.
Tyndale Concise Bible Commentary (unfortunately, I am still a novice )
There is no shame in this... LOL so long as you set out to become so acquainted with the Holy Spirit you no longer need the props / crutches...
Personally... I think of Daniel and John being closer to likeness for several reasons... but that's just me. I am sure there are numerous prophetic and similar parallels in scripture. Paul mentioned to Timothy about doing what he was prophesied to do... when I have time I'll track this down...
Ecclesiastes 1:9 (NASB95)
9 That which has been is that which will be, And that which has been done is that which will be done. So there is nothing new under the sun.
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John Hale
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quote:
Originally posted by Marlene:
John, this really puts things in context:
“..there was a time when the body of Jesus did not exist and that it was created / begotten by the Father.”
I imagine you are saying that although the fleshy body of Jesus did not always exist, the essence or spirit of Jesus always was and is.
Jesus is God but also has a second nature that God (the Father or the Spirit) do not have.
I understand that the second nature of Jesus that God or the Spirit does not have is the human nature, which is what makes him unique and individual within the Oneness of the Trinity.
Think of him as the bridge between God and man being himself both God and man.
Job 9:32-33 (NASB95)
32 “For He is not a man as I am that I may answer Him, That we may go to court together.
33 “There is no umpire between us, Who may lay his hand upon us both.
KJV calls umpire daysman
AT the time of Job there was none. But the Good News is Jesus became that daysman umpire able to place his hand on both God and man.
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Marlene
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I don’t know if I’m off in the wrong direction, but my mind wants to draw a parallel between Moses and the old covenant and the Apostle John and the new covenant. The Apostle John was to Jesus in the NT as the prophet Moses was to God/Jesus in the OT?
Jeremiah 31:31-34 OT seems to be a prophecy that refers to the Holy Spirit:
(31)Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
(32)Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
(33) But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in the inward parts, and write it in the hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
(34)And they shall teach no more, every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
The new covenant in Christ aimed at correcting the weak link of disobedience. And that was begun by putting the law of God into the human heart by means of the interior regeneration of the human soul. The law was place inside (Jer. 31:33-34). God had told Israel to put his will into their hearts:
Deut. 6:4-6
(4) Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:
(5)And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.
(6)And these words, which I command thee this day, shall be in thine heart:
However, God’s people always had a bad habit of doing what he did not like. Adam ate the fruit. Abraham lied. Moses got angry. The nation of Israel grumbled and complained. David committed murder and adultery. Solomon supported idolatry. Peter denied his LORD. Church after church continued to fall prey to pride, bickering and lapses in faith. Even in the face of God’s great redemptive events from the Exodus to the Cross, his people persisted in falling down on their responsibility to respond in gratitude and obedience. However, with the new covenant in Christ, God’s will has been written on the heart of every man.
The Old Testament promised the fulfillment of the promises to Abraham: a restored earth and people enjoying God’s unhindered presence and blessing. And the new covenant is the means for fulfilling those promises.
Tyndale Concise Bible Commentary (unfortunately, I am still a novice )
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Marlene
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John, this really puts things in context:
“..there was a time when the body of Jesus did not exist and that it was created / begotten by the Father.”
I imagine you are saying that although the fleshy body of Jesus did not always exist, the essence or spirit of Jesus always was and is.
Jesus is God but also has a second nature that God (the Father or the Spirit) do not have.
I understand that the second nature of Jesus that God or the Spirit does not have is the human nature, which is what makes him unique and individual within the Oneness of the Trinity.
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John Hale
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quote:
Originally posted by Carol Swenson:
quote:
Originally posted by John Hale:
If you read this carefully, it is a testimony to the fact that no one on earth ever heard from the Father (so all man's dealings with God and the LORD of the Old Testament was with the preincarnate Jesus (or actually God the Word).
Hebrews 1:1-2 (KJV)
1 God (the Trinity), who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son (the incarnation of God the Word), whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he (God the Trinity) made the worlds;
John 5:37 (KJV)
37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.
Exodus 33:17 - 23 (NASB)
The LORD said to Moses, “I will also do this thing of which you have spoken; for you have found favor in My sight and I have known you by name.” Then Moses said, “I pray You, show me Your glory!” And He said, “I Myself will make all My goodness pass before you, and will proclaim the name of the LORD before you; and I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will show compassion on whom I will show compassion.” But He said, “You cannot see My face, for no man can see Me and live!” Then the LORD said, “Behold, there is a place by Me, and you shall stand there on the rock; and it will come about, while My glory is passing by, that I will put you in the cleft of the rock and cover you with My hand until I have passed by. Then I will take My hand away and you shall see My back, but My face shall not be seen.”
Um, what in the text makes you think this is the one who became the Father (John 1:14, Hebrews 1:5-6, Hebrews 10:5-7)?
Why is this not the one who became the Son (John 1:14, Hebrews 1:5-6, Hebrews 10:5-7)?
Notice he said "see my face..."
Colossians 1:13-15 (KJV)
13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
The Father could pass right before Moses and Moses would not have seen him or the Holy Spirit.
The scripture holds that only the Son took upon himself physical form or manifested as a theophany in the OT.
Furthermore, you / Unger apparently did not also consider that the point the preincarnate Jesus was making was a temporary thing. For surely people looked into the face of the incarnate God (Jesus) and lived. Also it is stated in a later text:
Exodus 24:10-11 (KJV)
10 And they saw the God of Israel: and there was under his feet as it were a paved work of a sapphire stone, and as it were the body of heaven in his clearness.
11 And upon the nobles of the children of Israel he laid not his hand: also they saw God, and did eat and drink.
This is why I give little credence to commentaries, commentators, etc. beyond initial use perhaps in one's novice education of the Bible / God. Not that I am slamming you, Carol as a novice. I am just saying those materials have their usefulness in that time frame but after wards they become crutches to lean on.
God wants us to soar under his wings by learning how to heed (prove) the testimony of the Holy Spirit who wrote the Bible and who leads us to all truth.
The crutches and wheel chairs of human commentary or schools of thought thus fall away and we stand and are lifted up into the sky of God's understanding and his will...
I pray all can strip away those shackles and be free in the Spirit of Christ.
2 Timothy 2:15 (KJV)
15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
2 Timothy 3:16-17 (KJV)
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.
1 Thessalonians 5:21 (KJV)
21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
1 John 4:1 (KJV)
1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
Acts 17:11 (NIV)
11 Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.
I did not see one word about consulting any other source than the Bible. None.
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John Hale
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quote:
Originally posted by Carol Swenson:
Logos
(Gk. ho logos, “the Word”). A term used by the apostle John conveying most expressively the mission of Jesus as the revealer of the Godhead (John 1:1, 14). The title declares Christ’s eternity and absolute deity (“In the beginning was the Word, and … the Word was God”) as well as His assumption of humanity for man’s salvation (“and the Word became flesh”). Words are the vehicle for the revelation of the thoughts and intents of the mind to others. In the Person of the incarnate Logos, God made Himself fully known to man. Nothing knowable by man concerning God is undisclosed by incarnate deity. Christ as the Word constitutes the complete and ultimate divine revelaton. God has spoken with finality in “His Son” (Hebrews 1:1-2), who was Himself God, coequal and coeternal with the Father. Only such a Being coming forth from “the bosom of the Father” could, as a distinct Person of the Godhead, “explain” the Father—literally “show Him forth” (John 1:18). The question of whether John was influenced by Philo and Alexandrian Greek speculation is frequently debated. It is preferable to see the origin of his thought in the OT where the Word of God is the divine agent in creation and the revelation of God’s will to men. Moreover, studies in the Dead Sea Scrolls have led a number of scholars to the conclusion that the background of John is Jewish rather than Hellenistic. John further discourses profoundly on the Person and work of “the Word” in his first epistle (John 1:1, 5, 7), and finally in Revelation 19:13. m.f.u.
(The New Unger's Bible Dictionary)
So, what you / Unger are saying is that God the Word is a vessel or imagery a figure of speech that has a beginning (meaning there was a time in eternity past when God the Word simply did not exist)... is this what you / Unger are saying?
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Carol Swenson
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quote:
Originally posted by John Hale:
If you read this carefully, it is a testimony to the fact that no one on earth ever heard from the Father (so all man's dealings with God and the LORD of the Old Testament was with the preincarnate Jesus (or actually God the Word).
Hebrews 1:1-2 (KJV)
1 God (the Trinity), who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son (the incarnation of God the Word), whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he (God the Trinity) made the worlds;
John 5:37 (KJV)
37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.
Exodus 33:17 - 23 (NASB)
The LORD said to Moses, “I will also do this thing of which you have spoken; for you have found favor in My sight and I have known you by name.” Then Moses said, “I pray You, show me Your glory!” And He said, “I Myself will make all My goodness pass before you, and will proclaim the name of the LORD before you; and I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will show compassion on whom I will show compassion.” But He said, “You cannot see My face, for no man can see Me and live!” Then the LORD said, “Behold, there is a place by Me, and you shall stand there on the rock; and it will come about, while My glory is passing by, that I will put you in the cleft of the rock and cover you with My hand until I have passed by. Then I will take My hand away and you shall see My back, but My face shall not be seen.”
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Carol Swenson
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Logos
(Gk. ho logos, “the Word”). A term used by the apostle John conveying most expressively the mission of Jesus as the revealer of the Godhead (John 1:1, 14). The title declares Christ’s eternity and absolute deity (“In the beginning was the Word, and … the Word was God”) as well as His assumption of humanity for man’s salvation (“and the Word became flesh”). Words are the vehicle for the revelation of the thoughts and intents of the mind to others. In the Person of the incarnate Logos, God made Himself fully known to man. Nothing knowable by man concerning God is undisclosed by incarnate deity. Christ as the Word constitutes the complete and ultimate divine revelaton. God has spoken with finality in “His Son” (Hebrews 1:1-2), who was Himself God, coequal and coeternal with the Father. Only such a Being coming forth from “the bosom of the Father” could, as a distinct Person of the Godhead, “explain” the Father—literally “show Him forth” (John 1:18). The question of whether John was influenced by Philo and Alexandrian Greek speculation is frequently debated. It is preferable to see the origin of his thought in the OT where the Word of God is the divine agent in creation and the revelation of God’s will to men. Moreover, studies in the Dead Sea Scrolls have led a number of scholars to the conclusion that the background of John is Jewish rather than Hellenistic. John further discourses profoundly on the Person and work of “the Word” in his first epistle (John 1:1, 5, 7), and finally in Revelation 19:13.
(The New Unger's Bible Dictionary)
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John Hale
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If you read this carefully, it is a testimony to the fact that no one on earth ever heard from the Father (so all man's dealings with God and the LORD of the Old Testament was with the preincarnate Jesus (or actually God the Word).
Hebrews 1:1-2 (KJV)
1 God (the Trinity), who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son (the incarnation of God the Word), whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he (God the Trinity) made the worlds;
John 5:37 (KJV)
37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.
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John Hale
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John 1:3 (KJV)
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
Isaiah 44:24 (KJV)
24 Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;
Genesis 1:1 (KJV)
1 In the beginning God the Word created the heaven and the earth.
The only thing the preincarnate Jesus did not create was the body he would become. This is the only creation / begotten of the Father...
John 1:14 (KJV)
14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
Now if the Father begat anyone else then John 1:14 is not true.
Luke 3:38 (KJV)
38 Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God the Word.
Jesus is not the Father of John 1:14, but Jesus is the Father of creation.
Isaiah 9:6 (KJV)
6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
The Heavenly Father of the Lord's prayer and John 1:14 is the Father of Jesus alone. He is our Father by adoption only. He is not our Grandfather because he became the Father of the body (the incarnation) of Jesus. He is not the Father or a father of the Spirit of Jesus because the Spirit of God (all three persons / individuals) are not created. They are eternal.
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John Hale
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Jesus is eternal in his Spirit (existing with neither a beginning or an end). But his body did not exist from all eternity past as his Spirit did. The time / progression references in Hebrew 1 which I highlighted in bold type indicate there was a time when the body of Jesus did not exist and that it was created / begotten by the Father.
AND...
There was a time when the Son was not the Son and the Father not the Father by the use of those same time / progression references in Hebrews 1.
Jesus is God in flesh. This is why there are references to God and Jesus Christ...
John 17:3 (KJV)
3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
This is not a proof text like the JW's like to use for example to undeify Jesus... No. This is saying Jesus is God but also has a second nature that God (the Father or the Spirit) do not have.
There is a part of Jesus that was in fact created. His body. Created in the same sinless state Adam was before the fall. God the Word truly became one of us to be our kinsman redeemer.
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John Hale
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The Spirit of Jesus (God the Word) is God (obviously). Among the other two individuals of the Godhead (the one who became the Father when he created the body of Jesus).
John 1:1 (KJV)
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
John 1:14 (KJV)
14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
Hebrews 10:5 (KJV)
5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:
Hebrews 1 (KJV)
1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.
8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:
11 They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment;
12 And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.
13 But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?
14 Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?
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Marlene
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Jesus was always with God from the moment God decided to make creation. Jesus is a part of God himself:
John 1:1
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
John 1:14
14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, full of grace and truth.
So Jesus was the Word incarnate; the Word was God; and the Word was there in the beginning.
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MentorsRiddle
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I believe one of the best ways to describe the Holy Trinity is by carbon copies of a piece of paper.
While they are each the same document, each is also unique and individual – all expressing the same information and characteristics, yet different.
God, the Holy Spirit and Jesus are all the same God; yet separate from one another.
They do not share the same thoughts, yet think the same.
Each member of the Holy Trinity are different manifestations of God in heaven, who knows and is all.
I am a personal believer that it is impossible for us to understand the grand scope that is God and his nature.
I do not think it was ever intended for us to know it – or we would.
One things, however, is clear: The Holy Bible says there is a trinity, describes the separate parts and each part’s function.
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With you I rise,
In you I sleep,
kneeling down I kiss your feet,
Grace abounds upon me now,
I once was lost
but now I'm found.
The gift of God dwells within,
To this love I now give in.
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Marlene
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Sorry, the Council of Nicea was under Roman Emperor Constantine I in A.D. 325
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Marlene
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Elohim is actually a nonspecific or generic term for God in the Hebrew Bible, translated "God.", and is not used exclusively in reference to Yahweh. It can refer to all deities, which is why it is ambiguous. It does not take into account the personal characteristics of Yahweh. Being a generic term, it provides no insight into the God of the Bible.
Genesis 1 refers to God exclusively by the Hebrew title Elohim while the second chapter of Genesis, beginning in the second half of Genesis 2:4, speaks exclusively of Yahweh Elohim. The name Yahweh, "LORD," is a proper noun used exclusively of the God of Israel. Elohim, on the other hand, is a generic term for "God" or "gods" that only subsequently became a proper name.
Elohim conveys a philosophically oriented concept that connects a deity with the existence of the world and humanity
The doctrine of the Trinity is a biblical witness to God in light of the life, death and resurrection of Jesus. Nowhere in the Bible does it explicitly use the term “Trinity”.
1. There is but one God;
2. The Father, the Son and the Spirit is each fully and eternally God;
3. The Father, the Son and the Spirit is each a distinct person.
The doctrine developed in the 2nd century over disputes of the nature of Christ, and is influenced by neo-Platonism Greek philosophy. The origins of the Trinity doctrine are found under Pope Constantine at the Council of Nicea (325 AD) in the Nicean Creed. and was further articulated in the Athanasian Creed a hundred years later.
The Nicene Creed describes Jesus as:
"...begotten of his Father before all worlds.
God of God, Light of Light, Very God of Very God:
Begotten not made.
Being of one substance with the Father....
And was incarnate by the Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary..."
Notice that here Christ is "begotten" before Creation and not at his birth, which is the natural sense of begotten; instead he is said to be "incarnate" at his birth.
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Carol Swenson
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quote:
Interesting dilemma. Some seven thousand years ago, God the Word said "Let us make man..."
1In the beginningG746 was the WordG3056, and the WordG3056 was with GodG2316, and the WordG3056 was GodG2316.
G2316
θεός
theos
Thayer Definition:
2) the Godhead, trinity
2a) God the Father, the first person in the trinity
2b) Christ, the second person of the trinity
2c) Holy Spirit, the third person in the trinity
3) spoken of the only and true God
3a) refers to the things of God
3b) his counsels, interests, things due to him
4) whatever can in any respect be likened unto God, or resemble him in any way
4a) God’s representative or viceregent
4a1) of magistrates and judges
Part of Speech: noun masculine
In the NT and the Sept., Theos, God, generally answers to the OT pl. name Elohim and so denotes God, the Trinity. See Matt. 4:7 (cf. Deut. 6:16 in the Hebr. and the Sept.); Matt. 4:10 (cf. Deut. 6:3); Matt. 22:32 (cf. Ex. 3:6); Matt. 22:37 (cf. Deut. 6:5); Mark 1:14, 15 (cf. Dan. 2:44); Mark 12:29 (cf. Deut. 6:4, 5); John 1:12 (cf. Gen. 6:2); Acts 4:24 (cf. Gen. 1:1 in the Hebr.); Acts 10:34 (cf. Deut. 10:17).
(The Complete Word Study Dictionary)
The Triune God created everything.
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Betty Louise
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Jesus always existed in the GodHead, even before the earth began. God did not create Jesus. Jesus was always a part of God, just as the Holy Spirit has always been a part of God.
betty
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
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John Hale
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Let us make man...
Interesting dilemma. Some seven thousand years ago, God the Word said "Let us make man..."
It is clear that God the Word created all things created.
John 1:1-3 (KJV)
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
Colossians 1:16 (KJV)
16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
And that he did it A-lone:
Isaiah 44:24 (KJV)
24 Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;
And it is clear God the Father only created / begot one:
John 1:14 (KJV)
14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
Yet:
Genesis 1:26 (KJV)
26 And God said, Let US make man in OUR image, after OUR likeness...
I believe the answer is in the omniscience of God. Let us make man in our image and after our likeness.
First things first. Who or what is the image of God? The Bible answers our questions, if we bother to look.
Colossians 1:13-15 (KJV)
13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
I will make man after our likeness?
No because the Body of Christ had not been made yet.
I will make man after the image you make me which is the visible image of the invisible God...
Still doesn't quite describe it.
Let us make man in our image and after our likeness.
It can be misconstrued to sound like more than one of the individuals in the Godhead made man... but it covers all bases making man after the image of Christ who is the visible image of the invisible God. And with that in mind (the omniscient mind) sees the creation of this image as a joint venture while actually the Father only makes the body of the Son and he (God the Word) creates all things created before hand alone.
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Marlene
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The ambiguity of the term Elohim, being used both as a plural in its true sense and as a "plural intensive" seems appropriate, given the elusiveness of the nature of God, Himself. This ambiguity was coined "vertical translatability" by Mark S. Smith: God in translation: deities in cross-cultural discourse in the biblical world (2008).
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Carol Swenson
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The word Elohim is the plural of El and is the first name for God given in the Tanakh: “In the beginning, God (Elohim) created the heavens and the earth" (Genesis 1:1):
The name Elohim is unique to Hebraic thinking: it occurs only in Hebrew and in no other ancient Semitic language. The masculine plural ending does not mean “gods” when referring to the true God of Israel, since the name is mainly used with singular verb forms and with adjectives and pronouns in the singular (e.g., see Gen. 1:26). However, considering the Trinity, the form allows for the plurality within the Godhead.
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Marlene
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Interesting topic!Made me do some research.
In Genesis we notice the plural terms that are used, evidence of each member of the Trinity being present at creation.
Genesis 1:26
And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness; and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
At the judgment of Babel the Holy Spirit is present.
Genesis 11:7
Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another’s speech.
us our our us
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John Hale
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Well, I don't mean to sound pompous about this. Nor do I mean to be intrusive. How we all deal with the subject is one's own concern. And there is strength in numbers knowing one is not the lone bearer of them as the enemy would have us all believe.
How people deal with this in the more extreme cases is easier to understand the older I get and the more I experience. I wish all well. And I cannot even imagine as I used to so glibly gloss over the thought of an eternity of pain and suffering for those poor spirits in hell.
I know God would not allow this out of meanness or vindictiveness. That it breaks his heart. And it shows the great costs involved to him personally and to all of creation to enable us to have the choice to be redeemed from that endless hell. His sacrifice being the supreme and greatest.
Point being... we so easily gloss over the price Jesus paid in not only the crucifixion and all the gory details of that most horrible way to be abused and to suffer and die... but to become in addition to his divine self and nature a human being for all eternity... being both God and man... yet no longer fully either in the sense of absolute fellowship and kinship... there IS a harmony factor and the uniting of God and his people, true, but to go from being a pristine individual in the Godhead from all eternity to this hybrid must be a price paid and a burden bared.
And to insure each man woman and child has a choice in this matter of the eternities, he had to go about this in the covert way he did. Rather than tearing away the veil and showing the results of choices made so there would be no shadow of doubt (but no choice either) he had to do it all the way he did... risking the rejection of even his own people. Suffering at their hands and the hands of the pagans who long fell away. And to have to sit in heaven and experience the way human history filled with sin and atrocities so we could have choice...
How longsuffering God truly is!
And we don't realize it or take it to heart like God can twitch his nose, blink his eyes, snap his fingers and it be like a supernatural painkiller or some sort of divine narcotic or intoxicant to make his pain go away.
The way God feels things (happy or sad) must be far more intense than we do or could even imagine. And maybe our sympathy for his plight once in a while in prayer and our quiet times with him will offer him solace. Rather than our typical "me me me" prayers or the "how I think it should be" intercessory prayers...
Let's just give God a hug sometimes.
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Betty Louise
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Thank you John. I can't say I have been free from pain, but I feel better today then I did the other day. I look forward to when Jesus comes back and we have our glorified bodies.
betty
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
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John Hale
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May your pain be healed or borne well.
Much as I hate pain... it serves a purpose. Leapers could not feel pain and this was hwy their limbs withered (not knowing when to pull back from fire or something sharp etc). And the other pains we bear and are not healed from (except for the provision of God to dull or numb the pain through medicines which are quite the blessing when needed) despite our opinion or view of it is an opportunity to build character... or just feel sorry for ourselves.
I have done both. When I think to I try to remember to declare my pain to be of some use to the Lord (if only to make me humble). Three bouts with severe sciatica later... oy such humility!
I wouldn't wish that pain on my worst enemy. My wife who also had it says it is not as bad a labor pain but its a not so distant second.
Be well, sister.
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Betty Louise
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John,
Thank you for clarifying. God bless your day. Me I took some medicine for pain and I am off to take a nap.
God's blessings be on all who visit this board today.
betty
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
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John Hale
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And for those who try to say this is Jesus claiming to be the Father:
John 14:8-9 (NIV)
8 Philip said, “Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us.”
9 Jesus answered: “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?
John 12:44-45 (NIV)
44 Then Jesus cried out, “When a man believes in me, he does not believe in me only, but in the one who sent me.
45 When he looks at me, he sees the one who sent me.
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John Hale
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quote:
Originally posted by Betty Louise:
John,
I believe in the Trinity.
betty
The Father Revealed
7 "If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; and from now on you know Him and have seen Him."
8 Philip said to Him, "Lord, show us the Father, and it is sufficient for us."
9 Jesus said to him, "Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, 'Show us the Father'? 10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own authority; but the Father who dwells in Me does the works. 11 Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father in Me, or else believe Me for the sake of the works themselves.
Yes I know you do, Thunderz I am not so sure about by what he said above. So that's why I responded the way I did for his benefit.
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Betty Louise
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John,
I believe in the Trinity.
betty
The Father Revealed
7 "If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; and from now on you know Him and have seen Him."
8 Philip said to Him, "Lord, show us the Father, and it is sufficient for us."
9 Jesus said to him, "Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, 'Show us the Father'? 10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own authority; but the Father who dwells in Me does the works. 11 Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father in Me, or else believe Me for the sake of the works themselves.
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
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John Hale
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The Father says to the Son:
Hebrews 1:8 (KJV)
8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
The Son says about the Father:
John 20:17 (KJV)
17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.
The Father is God (testimony of Jesus).
The Son is God (testimony of the Father).
Jesus saying to the Father:
Matthew 26:39 (KJV)
39 And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.
This distinguishes the Father from the Son so they are not one and the same person but are distinct persons each having their own will.
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John Hale
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John 1:1-3 (KJV)
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
In the beginning
was the Word,
and the Word was WITH God,
and the Word WAS God.
The same was in the beginning with God.
All things were made by him;
and without him was not any thing made that was made.
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Betty Louise
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Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
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