WildB
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Author Topic: THE CONFLICT BETWEEN THE OLD AND NEW NATURES
WildB
Advanced Member
Member # 2917
posted October 21, 2009 02:23 PM
by Cornelius R. Stam
Concerning the conflict continually going on between the old and new natures in the believer, St. Paul says:
"For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would" (Gal. 5:17).
Regarding this conflict in his own personal experience, he writes:
"For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do."
"For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
"But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members" (Rom. 7:19,22,23).
It has been taught by some that we need not experience this continual strife between the old nature and the new. They say: "Get out of the 7th of Romans into the 8th."
We would remind such that the Apostle Paul wrote Romans 7 and Romans 8 at the same sitting; that in the original language the letter goes right on without interruption -- without even a chapter division.
Thus the same apostle who exclaims: "There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus" (Rom. 8:1) refers in the same letter, only a few sentences before, and in the present tense, to "the law of sin which is in my members," and freely acknowledges the present operation of that law in his members, as we have seen above.
How then shall we get out of the 7th of Romans into the 8th? Paul experienced both at the same time, and so do we, for while we are free from the condemnation of sin, sin itself nevertheless continues to work within us, and we must constantly "mortify the deeds of the body" (Rom. 8:13).
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That is all.....
Posts: 4125 | From: USA, MICHIGAN | Registered: Mar 2004 | IP: Logged |
MentorsRiddle
Advanced Member
Member # 2108
posted October 21, 2009 02:44 PM
Great post, I agree with it 100%
We still have the sin nature within our bodies, but we now also have the God nature within us too.
The sin nature continues to tug at us, but because of the God nature we are able to better withstand its demands.
Because of Jesus Christ we are forgiven of our sinful natures and delivered unto God.
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With you I rise,
In you I sleep,
kneeling down I kiss your feet,
Grace abounds upon me now,
I once was lost
but now I'm found.
The gift of God dwells within,
To this love I now give in.
Posts: 1305 | From: Arkansas | Registered: Sep 2003 | IP: Logged |
Copper25
Advanced Member
Member # 7464
posted October 21, 2009 07:52 PM
quote:
Concerning the conflict continually going on between the old and new natures in the believer
WildB, I say this politely, but unfortunately you have erred in making this post.
My brother, how can a Christian have two natures in them? The scripture reads as following
Matthew 7
17) Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18) A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
Observations
1) A tree is ether good of bad, but it cannot be both.
Does a tree struggle saying my nature is this and my nature is that? Can a tree have two natures, both good and bad? If I were to show you a tree, would it be half good and half bad
Nay, not at all, one or the other.
In the same way, we as Christians are not struggling with two natures duking it out in us. We are not part old creature and part new because the scripture says (2 Corinthians 5:17) "Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new."
God has not made us into a creature that is bound in chains partly to the old nature and partly transformed to the new nature; but rather one who is totality new. The scripture does not say, "he is partly a new creature or "mostly new", but rather new.
Thus what is that war going one in Paul, and in every one of us?
We must remember that though we are regenerated with a new heart and spirit (Ezekial 36:28), and are now the habitation of God's Holy Spirit; that we are in corruptable flesh.
What are the ways of the flesh?
Galatians 5
19) Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20) Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21) Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
As we can plainly see, the flesh represents that which is corrupt, that which is evil. Our flesh gravitates toward the iniquity, pride, transgression; those things which we, who are regenerated hate and oppose.
quote:
"For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would" (Gal. 5:17).
But just because we have a conflict with the flesh, do we have two natures? Nay, because you are ether going to be carnal or spiritual, liberated in the truth or caught in bondage to sin, dead in sin or alive to Christ, a good tree or a bad tree. The bible draws a BIG split between those regenerated and those not.
We who have been transformed in the inner man, but war against our flesh which was never regenerated, nor changed. However, the flesh is not our nature, not if one is born of God. As it is written, (Galatians 5:24) "And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts." Notice the word "have", which is a past participle; which means that the part of the sentence "crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts", is already been done.
This is not a present participle such as "having", which implies that the action is being done in the current time space for the believer: Nor does the scripture read "will crucify the flesh", which would indicate future action of crucifing the flesh.
Thus, those that are in Christ are not living a life dominated by the flesh, because they live in life by the Spirit.
As it is written
Romans 8
3) For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4) That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
5) For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
Again,
Romans 8:9) But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you.
Now Romans 8 says this
13) For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body , ye shall live.
Mortify means in its root, to kill.
Let us notice what is not said in this verse.
What it does not say : if ye through the Spirit continue do mortify the deeds of the body
If the scripture said this, it would imply that there is never a point of crucifing the flesh, as mentioned in Galatians 5, that there would be no final point of mortification, but rather, a battle were one is living submitting his life to the fleshly ways, and that the Spirit would not powerful enough to kill those evil deeds.
Conclusion: Though we, who are spiritual, who walk after the Spirit are changed in the inner man, it is the shell, that tabernalce of the body, which desires ungodly things, that we war against; but the flesh is not our nature.
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Isaiah 40:6) The voice said, Cry. And he said, What shall I cry? All flesh is grass, and all the goodliness thereof is as the flower of the field
Posts: 262 | From: Rochester, NY | Registered: Nov 2008 | IP: Logged |
WildB
Advanced Member
Member # 2917
posted October 21, 2009 09:56 PM
Perhaps I have erred , as you say.
But I have A GREAT Conflict within my soul.
Im still young enough to have the desires of marriage met, yet being a divorced man that cant.
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That is all.....
Posts: 4125 | From: USA, MICHIGAN | Registered: Mar 2004 | IP: Logged |
Carol Swenson
Moderator
Member # 6929
posted October 22, 2009 04:52 AM
WildB, I agree with your post.
But first, considering remarriage, here is at least one link of info: (you probably already know all this, but maybe there are some others who don't).
http://www.gotquestions.org/remarriage-adultery.html#
THE TWO NATURES
STANDING & STATE OF THE BELIEVER
Sad to say, very few Christians understand the doctrine of the two natures as it is taught in the Word of God. This fact has caused much confusion and disappointment among God's children. Certainly if believers understand the "old man" as opposed to the new, there would be much less backsliding than is in evidence today.
A lost person has only the old nature through physical birth. The moment a person is saved, he gains a new nature (in addition to the old) by spiritual birth (John 3:6, 7; II Pet. 1:4).
It is a mistake to think that the old nature can be eradicated (i.e. cease to exist). There will always be a continual conflict between the old and new natures.
There are different names for the old and new natures In the Bible.
The New Nature is called:
The Spirit
The inward man
The new man
The Old Nature is called:
The flesh
The outward man
The old man
Where two capacities are focused in opposite directions, there will be conflict. Paul states in Galatians 5:17: "For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are CONTRARY the one to the other."
Paul goes into great detail about this conflict in Romans 7. He also states that a Christian can have victory as he walks in the Spirit (Rom. 8 & Gal. 5).
Before a sinner is converted Satan has things going his way. He holds full sway in the life of the unsaved person and he does not have to put up a fight or try new tricks on his victim. But when the Lord Jesus moves into the heart and takes control, there is a new Tenant in the house. The "old man" does not appreciate being pushed aside and he puts up a fight.
This fact of continual conflict could lead to real spiritual depression if we fail to view this conflict correctly. Some have evaded the issue by denying that a genuine believer will experience struggle. They declare that either initial salvation or a second blessing destroys the old capacity for sin. It is exactly this error that John warned against in I John 1:8. "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us." Two factors are important here. It is distinctly the sin nature that is in view, and furthermore, the entire passage is addressed to believers and includes all believers. John is strongly affirming that every born-again person has a sin nature. Anyone who denies this fact is self-deceived.
The very fact that you will die one day proves that you have a sin nature (ROM 5:12).
Others make the mistake of trying to suppress the old nature by observing sufficient rules. Such a law principle is doomed to failure because it depends for strength on the very flesh from which it seeks deliverance. As long as we cling to any confidence in ourselves and struggle in our own strength, we only hinder God working in us.
To fully understand the doctrine of the two-natures we must know the difference between:
STANDING AND STATE.
Great confusion is caused when these two things (standing and state) are combined into ONE UNIT.
(I.e. Mixing salvation & service)
Salvation = is a FREE GIFT WITHOUT WORKS; (Eph. 2:8, 9)
Service = Deals with REWARDS, i.e. works; (I Cor. 3:11 -15)
ALL BELIEVERS ARE SAVED BY GRACE WITHOUT ANY MIXTURE OF WORKS.
"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that NOT OF YOURSELVES; it is the gift of God: NOT OF WORKS, lest any man should boast" (Eph. 2:8,9)
"Now to him that worketh is the reward NOT RECKONED OF GRACE, but Of debt." (ROM 4:4)
A child born into a family is part of that family because of BIRTH. He cannot become unborn. Relationship is by birth.
Obedience or disobedience however, can affect how he gets along IN that family. This is called FELLOWSHIP.
IN A PARENT-CHILD RELATIONSHIP:
THE DISOBEDIENCE OF THE CHILD DOES NOT BREAK THE RELATIONSHIP - JUST THE FELLOWSHIP.
Standing deals with:
Salvation
Relationship
(Our position in Christ)
State deals with:
Service
Fellowship
(Our condition with Christ)
STANDING - Always has to do with our salvation and relationship in Christ. It deals with the new birth; it is everlasting and unchangeable. (John 1:12; 3:16, 36:5:24; I Cor. 12:12-13)
STATE - Has to do with service and fellowship. It can change daily and has to do with the daily walk of the believer. (I Cor. 3:11 -15; 11:32; Heb. 12:5-6) State does not effect salvation.
NOTE: We can lose fellowship, but never relationship. Anyone that believes otherwise is trying to add works to his salvation. God says that salvation is a GIFT and not of works. When a person realizes that his standing (i.e. relationship) is sure; then he can fully concentrate on his fellowship and day by day walk.
A person should serve Christ because he loves Him, not because he is afraid he will lose his salvation.
Because every Christian has two natures, he has the choice of following the old man or the new man. God obviously wants us to walk in the Spirit.
WHAT DID PAUL MEAN WHEN HE SAID, "I DIE DAILY"??
When a man lies dead in his casket he can no longer satisfy fleshly desires - they died with him. Paul asks, "How shall we that are DEAD TO SIN, live any longer therein?" (ROM 6:2). Notice Paul did not say that sin is dead to US, but WE are dead to SIN. The point is not that the old nature is destroyed, but that our obligation to obey it is ended.
In the late France-German war all the Germans in England were called upon to serve in the German army. A person seeing his German friend walking about asked him how it was he had not gone to the war. 'Oh,' he replied, 'Because I am dead. 'You are dead!' was the answer; 'Explain yourself.' 'Well,' he said, 'I did not want to go to the war, and I found a young man who offered to go as my substitute; he went instead of me, he took my place, and was killed. Now that was counted just the same as though I had been killed, and so I am considered a dead man, and they can never take me to be a soldier any more.' Now you see the man himself was not actually dead, but he was counted so by the government, although he was really alive. So with us, Christ our substitute died.
"Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be DEAD INDEED ONTO SIN, but ALIVE UNTO GOD through Jesus Christ our Lord" (ROM 6:11).
We are to reckon ourselves dead to sin - not through our own power, not through our own 'good' living, but by the merit of the Lord Jesus. Remember - all of our 'goodness' is as filthy rags. He accepts only the spotless righteousness of the Lord Jesus! So do not attempt to cultivate the 'good' qualities you have. Yield all to Jesus. Feed the spirit-man on the things of the Spirit and you will become a full grown spiritual man and receive a full reward (II John 8). Expect nothing of the flesh and depend entirely on Jesus.
It is not enough to recognize that the flesh is no good. We are not to FEED it. We must "make not provision for the flesh, to fulfill the lusts thereof" (ROM 13:14). Some Christians make it easy for the flesh to feed. They do this by the magazines they buy, the books they read, the places they go, the television programs they watch, and in many other careless ways. God's Word commands, ABSTAIN FROM ALL APPEARANCE OF EVIL (I Thess., 5:22).
THE FLESH HAS A WORLDLY APPETITE.
By way of illustration, there is a story about an animal trainer who starved a tiger almost to the point of death. He did not feed the tiger with raw meat and gave him no taste of blood for weeks, until the animal lay in the cage as though he were almost dead. The trainer would go into the cage every day and stroke the tiger's head, and the subdued beast would lick his master's hand. But one day, not noticing a scratch on the back of his hand with a tiny trickle of blood oozing from it, he reached out to stroke the animal's head as usual and then the smell of warm blood reached the nostrils of the tiger. He had not tasted blood or raw meat for weeks. He had been starved until he appeared to be almost helpless; but the smell of blood revived him and with blazing eyes he pounced on his trainer who but a moment before had felt the warm stroke of the tiger's tongue on his hand! The tiger nature had not changed, and the moment he came in contact with the smell of blood all the fury of the jungle was revived.
So it is with the old nature. We may starve it and reduce it to a minimum of manifestation, but the fatal moment we attempt to pamper it by giving it a taste of the world (no matter how refined that taste may be) it will revive and, crouching tiger-like, will spring up against our spiritual life.
The only way to control the habits and desires of the flesh is to keep the NEW MAN strong and healthy by feeding him the right kind of spiritual food.
YOU CAN NEVER ACTUALLY KILL THE OLD NATURE, BUT YOU CAN SUBDUE IT.
IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO FEED BOTH NATURES AT THE SAME TIME.
The food that feeds ONE nature will STARVE the other. That is, the two natures within the Christian cannot be fed on the same thing.
Now if a Christian gives way to the desires of the flesh, he will become miserable and unhappy because of the depressing effect it has on his divine nature. He will not lose his soul's salvation, but he will lose his joy, victory and reward.
THE BIBLE CLEARLY TEACHES THAT GOD WILL CHASTEN HIS DISOBEDIENT CHILDREN. (HEB. 12 & I COR.11)
Anyone who has the attitude that "Now I'm saved, I can go out and sin all I want", has never truly been saved.
Friend, perhaps you have not frankly confessed your sin and backsliding to God: The Bible says,
"IF WE CONFESS OUR SINS, HE IS FAITHFUL AND JUST TO FORGIVE US OUR SINS. AND TO CLEANSE US FROM ALL UNRIGHTEOUSNESS" (I JOHN 1:9).
THERE IS A BIBLE WAY TO DEAL WITH AND CONQUER THE OLD MAN.
1. Reckon the old man dead unto sin.
2. Reckon yourself alive unto God through the Lord Jesus Christ.
3. Yield to the Holy Spirit and make no move or plan without His leading.
4. Feed the new man daily with the living Word.
5. Walk by faith and not by sight.
Thus is the Christian encouraged and invited to walk in the Spirit in full surrender to Him, with the assurance that by his so yielding, the Spirit will bring complete victory to the Christian life.
(Dr. Michael E. Todd, Ph. D)
http://www.biblebelievers.com/Todd5.html
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becauseHElives
Advanced Member
Member # 87
posted October 22, 2009 09:48 AM
WildB, I agree 100% with your post by Cornelius R. Stam....
Copper25 if you have reached perfection in this body of clay you are apparently more spiritually advanced than the Apostle Paul, he was still reaching for perfection late in his walk with Yahshua....
Philippians 3:12-14 Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already been made perfect, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me. Brothers, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead,I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus.
The reason the true believer must take up his or her cross daily is because of the continually war between the new and old nature....
and Carol it is upon this point that I disagree with you....
I am not going to argue about "Once Saved Always Saved"....
I am just going to point out it is not the believers responsibility to convince people they are saved ... that is the responsibility of the Holy Spirit....
The believer's responsibilities are to ... encourage one another daily, as long as it is called Today, so that none of you may be hardened by sin's deceitfulness. (Hebrews 3:13 )
Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith. Prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates? (II Cor. 13:5)
and WildB I will be praying for you...
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
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That is all.....
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