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Author
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Topic: Homosexuality okay at my church
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Brother Paul
Advanced Member
Member # 7959
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posted
You are so right...if the church she is going to says its okay then excommunicate this false church and kick the dust off your shoes as you leave...if it repents forgive it!
Brother Paul
Posts: 235 | From: Cambridge, MA | Registered: Dec 2009
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KnowHim
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posted
1 John 2:3-6 (NIV)
We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands. The man who says, “I know him,” but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But if anyone obeys his word, God’s love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him: Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did.
I don't think anyone is saying she can't be saved. But if the church she is going to acts as if what she is doing is OK then she want have a chance.
"Tolerance is a virtue of a man without convictions" - G.K. Chesterton
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Posts: 3276 | From: Charlestown, IN | Registered: Jun 2002
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Brother Paul
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Member # 7959
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To MichaelZ
As I said in my first post...if she refuses to repent then excommunicate her...and give her body over to Satan (just as Paul commanded the Corinthians).
This is what the word gives to us as instruction so why not follow it...whether you revoke her membership or not however is a man made tradition therfore I say (not the Lord) let the man made bosses of such things decide.
Also, consider that she may not be able to stop feelings of love and attraction toward other woman, these may have been motivated by a series of abuse from men, or may have just become preferential or habit and could change over time, but more importantly I would ask would she abstain from having sex, amybe the Lord would show her how to love a man and be loved by a man?
All I know is that when I was still walking in sin I came to Christ believing the promise of grace...the Lord and I wrestled of and on for nearly 10 years over every little thing...but praise be to His Holy Name He won...it was not that I fought Him, I actually was still my own lord and man was I judgmental (all by the letter of the word of course) then in my spirit by His Spirit in me, He showed me that I was no better in His eyes (He is no respector of persons)...it is all about what Christ did for us!
Brother Paul
Posts: 235 | From: Cambridge, MA | Registered: Dec 2009
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Betty Louise
Advanced Member
Member # 7175
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posted
I am a member of my Church. I joined my Church because I want to work with my Church in serving God. We work together as a team to support Missionaries at home and abroad. We support each other in love. When one of us is sick or in need we help each other. My membership in my Church does not mean that I am not a Christian first.
betty
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
Posts: 5051 | From: Houston, Texas | Registered: May 2008
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Brother Paul
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Member # 7959
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posted
Oh sorry...I did not addess the man made tradition of membership which some hold in higher regard than the word of God (and I am not saying any of you do this)...
I do not believe in denominations (like our Lord Jesus). Truly sorry to hear if you do, but perhaps the Lord will open your eyes to this error. You should immediately absolve your membership (I am of Paul, I am of Cephas, I am of Apollos, etc.,) and of course still fellowship there and teach there and preach there just belong only to Christ and be a folower of Him alone not making any concession for any denominational differences.
We are each Christ's or we not, not a Baptist or a Pentacostal or a Catholic those are secondary and usually born of family tradition of personal experience...the degree to which we are any of these as a qualifier we are to that degree away from the Unity of the Spirit in Him.
That's my understanding of membership...I went to a Presbyterian Church for a long time and now attend a Nazarene Church making no agreement with either denominations Statements of Faith. I go to Church to worship Christ and fellowship with other believers and to serve Him in whatever capacity He chooses to use me. Thus I can go to a Catholic Church just as easily and still worship Christ and fellowship and serve just as readily as I can in a Messianic Jewish Shul. May brothers and sisters are in all these places and there are many make-believers there as well.
Love
Brother Paul
Posts: 235 | From: Cambridge, MA | Registered: Dec 2009
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Michael Z
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Member # 8389
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posted
Note that the original poster did mention in one post that this woman refused to repent.
Posts: 46 | Registered: Nov 2010
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Brother Paul
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I still think you have to give the person a chance to repent...and if they repent forgive them (Jesus own words). She may not change her orientation (regardless of how she obtined it) but she can still obey the word. And as I said (though it appears you missed this)...if she refuses to repent then excommunicate her...and give her body over to Satan (just as Paul commanded the Corinthians). Only if she repents (like the man in Corinth) she must be restored to full fellowship. This is not un-Biblical and she has just as much right to come to Christ as any other type of sinner. Now what will you do with the men who still think lustful thoughts after other woman than their wives (many on a daily basis) and what will you do about the fornicators (many) in your pews? How about the closet alcoholics (more than a few I am sure)? And who among you will choose who gets grace and who does not? Guess what? It is the Lord and not you! So if you do not offer her a chance through grace then beware the Lord just may use the same measure you mete when you stand before Him...
I did not hear in the original scenario that anyone discussed her abstaining from this behavior. Has anyone directed her to organizations like Exodus who council Homosexuals? Many have been rescued and now live happy normal lives...aren't healing, deliverance, restoration, reconcilliation, etc., all still part of what the body of Chrost is about?
Selah,
Brother Paul
Posts: 235 | From: Cambridge, MA | Registered: Dec 2009
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Caretaker
Advanced Member
Member # 36
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Michael Z:
Brother Paul, you must realize that most churches require members to affirm their faith and belief in the Scriptures.
A person in a homosexual lifestyle that will not repent is no different than a man who is caught viewing porn yet maintains "This is the way I am. I can not change". Or a woman that spreads malicious lies yet will not repent. Would you say that these people should continue on in membership?
The proper thing to do here is to make this person surrender her membership. If she maintains that she is not really a believer, then welcome her to attend church as a non-believer - that is what churches are for. If she maintains she is a believer, then have nothing to do with her. We can not ban her from attending church under our current laws. And I would do the same thing with the unrepentant man that views porn, or the unrepentant woman that spreads malicious lies.
Exactly!!!
A member has the same status in the congregation as any other member, especially in regards to calling a pastor and electing the deacons and other leadership. It would be the same as the drunk under the influence sitting in the pew, the child molester being allowed to teach children, the unrepentant thief being allowed to manage the collection plate/church finances, a gossiper/liar/teller of tales to publish the church newsletter, proponents of heresy allowed to teach theology/doctrine.
It is necessary to impose church discipline upon the unrepentant.
1 Corinthians 5
1 It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife.
2 And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you.
3 For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed,
4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
6 Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump?
7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:
8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.
9 I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators:
10 Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world.
11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.
12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?
13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.
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A Servant of Christ,
Drew
1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..
Posts: 3978 | From: Council Grove, KS USA | Registered: Jun 2002
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Michael Z
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Member # 8389
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posted
Brother Paul, you must realize that most churches require members to affirm their faith and belief in the Scriptures.
A person in a homosexual lifestyle that will not repent is no different than a man who is caught viewing porn yet maintains "This is the way I am. I can not change". Or a woman that spreads malicious lies yet will not repent. Would you say that these people should continue on in membership?
The proper thing to do here is to make this person surrender her membership. If she maintains that she is not really a believer, then welcome her to attend church as a non-believer - that is what churches are for. If she maintains she is a believer, then have nothing to do with her. We can not ban her from attending church under our current laws. And I would do the same thing with the unrepentant man that views porn, or the unrepentant woman that spreads malicious lies.
Posts: 46 | Registered: Nov 2010
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Brother Paul
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posted
Well we know all sin is an abomination unto the Lord and all of it (even if you break a jot or tittle) makes one worthy of the Judgment and hellfire...second we know there is only one sin that will not be forgiven...and third if the Lord suddenly cast out every sinner in all the churches I wonder how many people there would be left?
So if they are not marrying them or elevating them to positions of authority it is not wrong to allow this sinner to seek Christ and trust in and rely on Him to transform them (He is the author and the finisher of ones faith). I know she should be striving in repentance but that is between her and the Lord...we can judge the sin but not the sinner...the big hat ladies for their pride, those in the pews having unmarried sex, those who care not for the poor around them, those who teach the view of the critical school, Whew! That would wipe out half right there...then there is the ...go ahead fill in the blanks...remember it is the love and mercy of God that causes a person to repent not the fear of condemnation. We love God because He first loved us and died for us while we were yet sinners...Hmmm! How God's love can conquer and overcome sin! How the presence of the Holy Spirit convicts of sin and righteousness! How the word breaks the rock of the stony heart! Think she will get right with God if deprived of all these? If she knows her lifestyle is sin she will eventually change and if not then she is accountable before the Lord...
In my opinion, do not kick her out. Though as Paul did, if she refuses to repent then give her body over to Satan so that her soul may be saved and then cut her off from the Lord's table and pray, pray, pray for her and be still and watch what the Lord will do.
Brother Paul
Posts: 235 | From: Cambridge, MA | Registered: Dec 2009
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KnowHim
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The Holy Bible, New King James Version
26For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. 28Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? 30For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord. And again, “The Lord will judge His people.” 31It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.;
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Posts: 3276 | From: Charlestown, IN | Registered: Jun 2002
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barrykind
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Member # 35
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posted
Amen Brother David
![[thumbsup2]](graemlins/thumbsup2.gif)
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The HEART of the issue is truly the issue of the HEART!
John 3:3;Mark 8:34-38;James 1:27
Posts: 3529 | From: Orange, Texas | Registered: Jun 2002
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KnowHim
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We are here to please God not man. We are here for Him not He for us. Until we understand this we will always want to be man pleasers. If you follow Jesus and love Him worldly people will not like you period.
If your church is being ran by worldly people and they want to be man pleasers you need to leave it as it is not a church but a club. A real church will put Jesus first not themselves, nor will it be there to please man but to please God.
Ezekiel 16:49-50 declares, "Now this was the sin of your sister Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy. They were haughty and did detestable things before me..." The Hebrew word translated "detestable" refers to something that is morally disgusting and is the exact same word used in Leviticus 18:22 that refers to homosexuality as an "abomination." Similarly, Jude 7 declares, "...Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion." Homosexuality was not the only sin in which the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah indulged, but it does appear to be the primary reason for the destruction of the cities.
A lot of churches today are not following Jesus but man. If they decide that what God says is wrong is actually OK with them then they are there to be man pleasers and are building their so called church for themselves and not God.
Homosexuals argue that they did not make a conscious decision to be that way, so it must be natural. They are born that way—just as all of us are born with a sin nature and sinful desires (Ephesians 2:1– ). Tell them that it is natural for them, and for all of us, to be tempted to do things that God says are wrong. In the same way, pedophiles and adulterers (alcoholics, drug addicts, etc.) don’t make a conscious decision to "choose" that self-destructive lifestyle, they simply give in to their sinful desires. However, although sin is natural for unbelievers, that doesn’t mean God wants them to remain that way. God can set them free from their sinful nature (Romans 7:23–8:2), give them new desires (Ephesians 4:22–24), and help them withstand temptations (1 Corinthians 10:13). See 1 Corinthians 6:9– 1
If you get to know Jesus Christ and not a Church building then the truth will set you free and you will know Jesus and not be a man pleaser.
Until one comes to know Jesus Christ they will never be saved. And if one comes to know Jesus Christ they will give up their sin because they have come to know Him.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5NiIcL-R234
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VOfU26_Ajvc
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John Hale
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posted
It's one thing not to brutalize people for such a sinful lifestyle. It is quite another to affirm it and that in the church... oy vey!
1 Corinthians 5:5 (NASB95)
5 I have decided to deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
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WildB
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"give the person a reasonable time, usually a couple of months, to respond favorably. And if they have not responded, we will then make an announcement before the entire congregation that they’ve been removed from the fellowship, that they’ve been put out of the church. Do not associate with them; do not even eat with such a one. He’s been turned over to Satan for the destruction of his flesh. Now, that sometimes results in repentance. When it does, we’ve served our brother and won him, but sometimes it does not. In fact, most of the times when it gets to step four, it does not result in repentance. By that time usually, they’ve cut and run anyhow but we fulfilled our obligation. But he may continue in his sin, because there’s a possibility he may not be saved. He may be a tare within the fellowship. He might just be continuing to live in sin because he’s lying to himself about what a Christian really is. Or he may be a Christian that is being chastened by the Lord and part of your chastening is being removed from the fellowship. Or it may involve even sin unto death, like those people in Corinth that had sinned in the taking of the communion fellowship together, that some of them were sick and some of them had even died because of that sin."
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That is all.....
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jwolf6589
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Michael Z:
If church membership means they have stated they are believers and accept the scripture, then the church is approving sin among it believers by not confronting this person to give up membership.
If that is what it is, I personally would leave.
On the other hand, if membership did not mean that one is a Brother or Sister in Christ, then the person should be allowed to stay on since the whole mission of the church is to reach out to unsaved people.
The church did confront her, but she refuses to repent. The congregation voted and she stays as a member. Bad news!
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Michael Z
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posted
If church membership means they have stated they are believers and accept the scripture, then the church is approving sin among it believers by not confronting this person to give up membership.
If that is what it is, I personally would leave.
On the other hand, if membership did not mean that one is a Brother or Sister in Christ, then the person should be allowed to stay on since the whole mission of the church is to reach out to unsaved people.
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jwolf6589
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Michael Z:
quote:
Originally posted by Betty Louise:
If a married minister was having an affair with the pianist, he would rightfully be asked to step down. A member who is living in a sinful lifestyle should be talked to by the Minister,if sin persist then the Minister should go back and talk to them with two board members, if the person ignores them,then the Bible said that person should be brought up before the Church. The Bible is clear on discipline in the body of the Church. Sexual sin is considered worse because your bring the sin into your body which is the temple of the Holy Spirit.
betty
It almost sounds like they followed this Biblical procedure.
They did no question. But… There are deacons and 60% of the church membership that thinks putting a Homosexual off church membership is not "love."
Although I stated several scripture from the open mic it went past many people.
Should I come out from among them and be ye separate?
John
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jwolf6589
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quote:
Originally posted by Betty Louise:
If a married minister was having an affair with the pianist, he would rightfully be asked to step down. A member who is living in a sinful lifestyle should be talked to by the Minister,if sin persist then the Minister should go back and talk to them with two board members, if the person ignores them,then the Bible said that person should be brought up before the Church. The Bible is clear on discipline in the body of the Church. Sexual sin is considered worse because your bring the sin into your body which is the temple of the Holy Spirit.
betty
I would agree. The question then is, if I should separate or not.
Thanks,
John
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Michael Z
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Betty Louise:
If a married minister was having an affair with the pianist, he would rightfully be asked to step down. A member who is living in a sinful lifestyle should be talked to by the Minister,if sin persist then the Minister should go back and talk to them with two board members, if the person ignores them,then the Bible said that person should be brought up before the Church. The Bible is clear on discipline in the body of the Church. Sexual sin is considered worse because your bring the sin into your body which is the temple of the Holy Spirit.
betty
It almost sounds like they followed this Biblical procedure.
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Betty Louise
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posted
If a married minister was having an affair with the pianist, he would rightfully be asked to step down. A member who is living in a sinful lifestyle should be talked to by the Minister,if sin persist then the Minister should go back and talk to them with two board members, if the person ignores them,then the Bible said that person should be brought up before the Church. The Bible is clear on discipline in the body of the Church. Sexual sin is considered worse because your bring the sin into your body which is the temple of the Holy Spirit.
betty
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
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WildB
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II. Procedures
Finally we get to the procedures.
What it is not. What Church Discipline is not.
It’s not a witch hunt.
It’s not a way to get even.
It’s not even an investigation of rumors.
But, what is it?
Well, sometimes it involves a sin against you personally.
Use the New King James, or even the Old King James, in Matthew 18 it says: “a brother has sinned against you.” The New American Standard, based on, I believe, more reliable texts, just says: “if a brother sins,” which would include a brother sinning against you. But in a specific case, the Lord Jesus told the Disciples in Matthew 5 that when you’re presenting your offering at the altar and there remember that your brother has something against you, not that you have something against your brother, but that your brother has something against you; leave your offering there before the altar and go your way, first be reconciled to your brother.
So, if it is a sin against you personally, you should seek the reconciliation, you should seek restoring the relationship with that brother. And Peter’s question of Christ was, how many times do I have to forgive this guy if he keeps doing the same thing over and over? Do I have to forgive him seven times? Christ said: seventy times seven times. Now, that’s not 490 times and then the 491st time we can really nail the guy? What that means is that you should be willing to go all the way with him an infinite number of times.
Now, sometimes it’s sin that’s known, known to you personally.
This would be the general case. If you know a brother is in sin, you should take action. It could be known to you and some others, which will involve the witnesses and we’ll deal specifically in the step-by-step procedure of how you involve witnesses in this, but when the witnesses are involved we’re simply using rules of evidence in a court of law as described by Moses in Deuteronomy. Now, when there were disputes between members of the tribes of Israel, they either took their disputes before the elders of the tribes or to Moses himself for adjudication. And when two people disagree on charges that are being made, how do you determine who’s telling the truth? It was established that you needed two or three witnesses and then facts could be determined.
Now, what is the purpose?
The purpose is to win your brother, according to Matthew 18:15.
The purpose is to restore the sinner, Galatians 6:1.
The purpose is to lead to repentance, 2 Timothy 2:25, “Correct with gentleness that God may grant repentance.”
The purpose is to avoid God’s interaction. 1 John 5 tells us of sin unto death – avoid God having to intervene and take care of the situation.
Practice
The practice is to be done with gentleness. Galatians 6:1 and 2 Timothy 2:25.
It’s to be done with love. What kind of love?
i. The kind of love that God showed toward you in forgiving you.
ii. The love that a father shows to a son in Proverbs 13:24.
It’s to be done without hypocrisy, Matthew 7:1-5.
It’s to be done with patience. There are four specific steps that you must go through to practice proper biblical church discipline.
It’s to be done with fairness.
Are there any unnecessary elements?
Yes, public confession is not always necessary.
Details being made public; details is not always necessary.
Corporal punishment is certainly not necessary.
The steps are given to us in Matthew 18:15-20:
“If your brother sins, go and reprove him in private. If he listens to you, you’ve won your brother. If he does not listen to you, take one or two more with you, that by the mouth of two or more witnesses, every fact can be confirmed. If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church. If he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax gatherer. Truly I say to you, whatever you shall bind on earth, shall have been bound in heaven and whatever you loose on earth, shall have been loosed in heaven. Again I say to you that if two of you agree on earth about anything that they may ask, it shall be done for them by my Father, who is in Heaven. For, where two or three are gathered together in My Name, there am I in the midst.”
Now, some may be wondering why I included binding and loosing and prayer promises in this discussion of church discipline. Well, I haven’t talked about spiritual warfare, because binding and loosing has nothing to do with spiritual warfare but has to do with Rabbinic tradition. The Rabbis had the right and the authority to either bind a person to an oath that they made or loose them from the oath. Say, you made an agreement to pay so and so a certain amount of money on a certain date and when that date came, you didn’t have the money. You had the right to go an appeal before the Rabbis. They could listen to your case and determine whether you would still to be bound to your oath, which meant probably debtors prison, or maybe selling part of your family into slavery, or you could be loosed from it, because there were mitigating circumstances that were reasonable and they could loose you from it. By the same token, within church discipline, believe that you have the authority to bind a person, that is, to turn him over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh that their spirit may be saved, or you have the authority, when they’re repentant, to forgive them and grant them full membership back into your fellowship.
And then the issue, of “when two or three agree on earth, is about anything that they may ask.” Some have interpreted this to mean that if you can just get two or three people together agreeing on something, then God is bound to do it. Now, that’s ridiculous. First of all, “where two or three are gathered together in My Name, there am I in their midst.” How many does it take for Christ to be in the midst? Just one, just one believer. What it’s talking about is when you follow this procedure and involve the witnesses, involve the church, be assured that what you’re doing here on earth has already been done in heaven.
Now, I’ve got a little schematic diagram that shows the dealing with sinning Christians.
Start when you have first-hand knowledge of sin in the body of Christ. It’s something that you have seen or heard that gives you the strong feeling that a brother or sister is walking in unrighteousness. What you have observed brings that conclusion to your heart.
Private confrontation v.15
What should you do? You need to be prayed up, you need to make sure that you’ve got the two-by-four out of your own eye, before you deal with your brother, but you should reprove him privately. Luke 17:3 says that you should rebuke sin, bring about repentance and forgiveness.
Now, how do you do this privately? You arrange to meet with the individual where no one else could hear it and you bring this issue before them, that you are aware of such and such an activity within their life, you’re concerned for their spiritual welfare, you call them to repentance. Now, one of the other reasons it’s good to do this privately, is that you may not have all the facts.
Years ago one of our staff members had an office overlooking the East side of our property, where there was a dumpster (I think there’s still a dumpster in that area, now that we have some construction going on) but, he looked out the window and saw a guy rummaging around in the dumpster. The guy was wearing kind of grubby clothes and he came up with this cassette, one of those white cassettes, most of them by John MacArthur. But there was tape hanging out of it – he wrapped it up and stuck it in his pocket and disappeared. A little while later this guy appears in his office, plunks the tape down on his desk and said: “This church sold me a defective tape, I want my money back.” Well, this fellow had petty cash in his drawer, if fact he was responsible for the tape ministry of that time, so he paid the guy, I think it was a dollar and a quarter for tapes back in those days, and the guy left. But he felt a little awkward about this, he really thought he’d been taken. A couple of weeks later he found himself working side by side in ministry with the same guy. So, he pulled him aside privately and said: “Remember that tape that you brought in? I saw where you got it.” The guy said: “You saw where I got it? I bought it at the tape shack!” By the way, back in those days, the tape shack was a shack. It was a converted chicken coup. And he said: “I bought it at the tape shack. It was defective. No tapes before or since I’ve played on my tape recorder have ripped out the tape like that one did. There was something wrong with the tape.” So, the guy said: “But, I saw you getting it out of the dumpster!” He said: “Yes, my wife works in the nursery and I had a day off from work, so I put on my grubby clothes and came down here and was helping her clean out the trash, when I dumped some of it in the dumpster, it fell out of my pocket. All I did was to retrieve it.”
He had only seen part of the incident. That was the truth. He had won his brother, not in a sense as we’re speaking of here, but if he listens to you, you have served and won your brother. But he did establish a relationship with him. He was able to work on the guy’s sort of “rough” behavior. From that point onward and they became close friends over this.
By the same token, when you deal with a person in private, rather than going to a Bible study and saying: “Anybody here know of so and so involved in such and such, please pray for him.” You know, that’s not even well concealed gossip. You go to him in private. You may not have all the details, you may learn the real matter and find that it was not sin or you may find that it was sin. And because of your loving concern for this brother, the sin may be impressed upon his heart, so that he repents and if he repents, you’ve won your brother, you’ve established an accountability group of two. He’s going to be looking out for you, you’re going to be looking out for him from then on.
Witnesses v. 16
Some times they don’t listen. In fact, they respond with Scripture. Matthew 7:1, “Judge not, that you be not judged. How can you tell me how to live my life? Get out of my face.” That’s sometimes their reaction. What do you do then? Well, you reprove him before one or two witnesses. Again, that Deuteronomy passage.
Witnesses, where do you get these witnesses? Do you run an ad in your church paper, asking for anybody that’s aware of this sin in the guy’s life? Well, that’s gossip. But even fishing around with little hints to find out if anybody else knows about this, is also a form of gossip. If you don’t happen to know of individuals that are aware of this sin, maybe that were with you when you heard it or saw it, what you need are “witnesses” marturion (Greek). The Old Testament word in Deuteronomy, and every time it is used in the Old Testament, the word `ed (Hebrew) is usually, almost every time it’s used, it speaks of bearing testimony to something. Not so much that he saw it or heard it but that he bears testimony to what he knows about it. So, what you need are witnesses, that if you go onto another step of telling it to the church, are people who are reliable, people who would give good testimony, accurate testimony. So, you’re looking for people they will make good witnesses to what takes place next.
And what takes place next, is you reprove him before these witnesses and now there are at least three people: if you one witness you got two people, and if you got two witnesses then there are three people now that are concerned about this individual’s welfare. Not only that, but it’s obvious that it’s in a process and we’re in step two of the process.
Now, you get your witnesses by going to one of these reliable people, and saying, “I’m in a Matthew 18 situation, step two, I need witnesses to go along.” The situation that unfolds before them…they may not even know the individual that you’re dealing with, is something they can bear testimony to. They can witness to your demeanor, the demeanor of the individual you’re confronting, the various responses that are made, what is said, what is not said and what the general respond to the issue is. And the fact that there are now a group of you, it may be enough to win this person’s attention to the fact that there is truly sin in his life that he needs to deal with it, or else it’s going to be brought before the church, and he may repent. If he repents, you’ve served your brother and won him. You are now the larger accountability group. You, you’re witnesses and this individual will be looking out for each other from that point on. But again, he may not listen. So, the next step is to reprove him before the church.
Tell the church v. 17
Scripture says to tell it to the church. Does that mean that you stand up in front of the congregation and announce what this guy has done and what you and your witnesses have confirmed? I don’t believe so. The church is more than just the assembled body. The church involves church leadership. If this is going to be an act of the church acting, it has to be your leadership’s decision.
So, at Grace Community Church, if an individual is aware of sin in a brother’s life and has gone to them with witnesses and they have not had a successful response of repentance, they then tell it to an elder. Every ministry at Grace Community Church has elders involved within it. If you look at our Sunday morning bulletin, next Sunday, you’ll see the list of all the fellowship groups of ministries, and that each one has an elder’s name adjacent to it. So, anyone in the church that’s involved in ministry, which should be everyone in the church, has an elder. Tell it to the elder. Now, the elder may interrupt before you get very far in your description of the problem, because the eldership does not want to know of situations and rumor chasing, that have not been dealt with by steps one and two. They might be happy to give council in general as to how to deal with those steps, but we don’t want to hear the details until we verify that steps one and two have taken place and the individual is not repentant. At that point the elders will take responsibility for it, they’ll investigate the situation, they may involve the original individual that brought the rebuke, they may involve him and his witnesses or may just take testimony from them and deal with the situation. We always use at least two elders investigating these situations. They deal with the individual, call him to repentance. If he repents, he’s forgiven and that’s the end of the matter.
If he does not listen, we tell it to the congregation. We tell the congregation who it is, what the general nature of the sin is and that he is a brother, who is purporting to be at least a brother, go to him and call him to repentance. This is not removal from the church, this is the third step, telling it to the church, for the church to be involved as a body, seeking the repentance of this individual. If he repents, we have a situation that was resolved successfully, but if he does not repent, the next step is to put him out of the fellowship.
Remove from church v. 17
Now, at Grace, what we do is, we give the person a reasonable time, usually a couple of months, to respond favorably. And if they have not responded, we will then make an announcement before the entire congregation that they’ve been removed from the fellowship, that they’ve been put out of the church. Do not associate with them; do not even eat with such a one. He’s been turned over to Satan for the destruction of his flesh. Now, that sometimes results in repentance. When it does, we’ve served our brother and won him, but sometimes it does not. In fact, most of the times when it gets to step four, it does not result in repentance. By that time usually, they’ve cut and run anyhow but we fulfilled our obligation. But he may continue in his sin, because there’s a possibility he may not be saved. He may be a tare within the fellowship. He might just be continuing to live in sin because he’s lying to himself about what a Christian really is. Or he may be a Christian that is being chastened by the Lord and part of your chastening is being removed from the fellowship. Or it may involve even sin unto death, like those people in Corinth that had sinned in the taking of the communion fellowship together, that some of them were sick and some of them had even died because of that sin.
So, we’ve dealt with the steps. Note that Scripture always treats those who profess faith in Christ the same. Hence these actions are to be taken with anyone who identifies himself with the church. Before either the third or fourth step, letters should be sent to the individual, it should be spelled out in writing, either by registered mail with returned receipt or by hand carried couriered mail, so that you ensure the person has in their possession the information that will be disclosed, in either the third or fourth step, to the church and when it will be disclosed and give him a date and time when we must see repentance to stop the process from going any further.
Not all church discipline results in restoration, even though we call it church restoration, in some cases it does not, and then after some time, sometimes it’s years, that the person realizes the sinfulness of their behavior and they repent. We’ve had people come back years later saying, “When you put me out of the church, I was wrong. I was in sin, I was deceived. I was wrong. Please take me back. It’s a cruel life out there. I can’t live the life of a believer without the fellowship of others around me, supporting me.” If we believe that it’s true repentance after studying their life for a period of time, we will assign a couple of elders to watch over the individual and ensure that there’s truly fruit of repentance. We’ll make an announcement just like the announcement that put him out, but it will be an announcement before the whole congregation that so and so has repented, welcome him back into the fellowship.
IV. A Final Note
One final note: Biblical history is filled with troublesome reminders that in this world system evil normally overcomes good, unless prevented measures are taken. God’s remedy is discipline and separation; never isolation. “With God’s Word as our Teacher and the Spirit of God as our Counselor and Guide, may we walk alertly in ways that will bring glory to Him. Above all, let us consistently work towards the purity of Christ’s Church, which he purchased with his own blood.”
These words of the prophet Jehu to Jehoshaphat, King of Judah, serve as an appropriate trail marker for our pilgrim journey through this sin-filled world. “Jehu the son of Hanani the seer went out to meet him, and said to king Jehoshaphat, ‘Should you help the wicked and love only those who hate the Lord and bring wrath on yourself from the Lord.” There may be in our churches many caught in sin. May God give us the grace to confront their sins in love, so that they may be restored to fellowship with the Lord and continue to grow in grace in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
In your handout of everything stapled together, the first section of it is, I think, eight pages. This is a good reminder, in practicing church discipline in this very litigious society in which we live, may result in repercussions. I have an analysis of a court case, The Oklahoma Supreme Court ruling in Gwen (sp?) versus the Church of Christ, back in 1989, as an example of what you should and should not do.
In this particular case, in Collinsville, Oklahoma, a woman by the name of Gwen was in the Church of Christ but she was sinning openly. The whole community knew of it. The church went through various steps of trying to restore her and went all the way to the step of putting her out of the church. She turned around and sued the church for defamation of character and for bringing her name into disrepute. And a [local] jury, as juries are want to do, ruled in favor of the parishioner and awarded her $205,000 in actual damages, a $185,000 in punitive damages and $45,000 in interest. That’s quite a blow for a small church. This hand out that you have, if you move on to about the sixth page (they’re front and back, by the way), about halfway down the page, there’s some lessons to be learned and some things that came out of this case.
1. Number One: The discipline of church members is a constitutionally protected right of churches. If discipline of church members is a possibility in your church, then you should adopt a disciplinary procedure that ideally is based upon and specifically refers to scriptural references. The procedure should specify the grounds for discipline and describe the process that will be conducted.
2. Number Two: The first amendment guarantee of religious freedom insulates pre-withdrawal discipline of church members from legal liability in most, if not all, cases.
3. Number Three: Deals more with that.
4. Number Four: The court concluded that the constitutional right of a church member to withdraw from the church membership is protected by the first amendment guarantee of religious freedom, unless a member has waved that right. One approach would be for a church to adopt a provision in its bylaws, preventing members from withdrawing if they are currently being disciplined and to be as safe as possible, a church should explain to present and prospective members, the provision in the bylaws, limiting their right to withdraw and explaining to them that by becoming members, they will be waving their right to withdraw from membership if they’re under discipline by the church.
There’s a summary on the eighth page, upper right hand corner: Churches have a constitutional right to discipline members, statements made to the church members about disciplined members are conditionally privileged. Churches have broad authority to discipline clergy. Churches have constitutionally protected rights to discipline a former member, who has withdrawn from the membership, if the former member has effectively waved his or her right to withdraw from membership. That’s why we teach church discipline in all our new member classes. We have new member classes every month here at Grace, there’s usually 30 to 50 people in each class and it’s explained to them, not only as part of the membership process, have they had to read our bylaws and agree with them, they are reminded that when they agreed to them, they waved their right to sue us if we practice church discipline with them as the recipient.
And I’ve also included, on the last two pages of your hand out, a section lifted from our bylaws. Our bylaws are a booklet, about an eight of an inch thick and within article 5, church membership, there’s a section 8, church discipline. Remember what I said, was anyone who professes to be a believer in your fellowship should be treated as if they’re a believer in the process of church discipline. What do you do with people that aren’t members? They haven’t been through the membership class, they haven’t waved this right. Do we practice church discipline on non-members? Yes, we do. We believe we have a spiritual and scriptural mandate even though there may not be a clearly defined legal mandate. In fact, what we go by, from a legal standpoint and in certain cases we may consult with legal counsel on how to proceed, but specifically, if we can demonstrate that an individual has been in the church for enough time and been present and can verify and document that they were present during services in which church discipline was practiced and they are thus fully aware of how we deal with sinning believers, we can use the term called “implied consent” and we have used this in the past. So, we practice church discipline on both members and non-members and if you read our bylaws section, we also have provision for removing people from membership even not by church discipline, just by inactivity. I would urge you in your churches; keep your roles clean, that they consist of people who are actively members of your church not just people who had a name on a roll.
With that, I’ll open it to questions.
Question: We are talking about two believers. The husband is behaving in a manner that is causing his wife distress, but their not under any authority because they are not members of any church, or they are members of a church that does not practice church discipline. What do we, as individuals do?
Answer: I would believe that you should take the first step as outlined in Matthew 18. You should go and reprove your brother. If he does repent; go with witnesses. If he does not repent, and if there is a church that does not practice church discipline but yet is a church that has accountability for him—I’d tell it to that church leadership. If he is not in any church, then you would have to bypass that step, but I think you have done all that you can do, but I believe that you have the right, with you and your witnesses to go forward with the ramifications of what would take place in church discipline if it was followed through, that is, you stop your fellowship with that individual and make it clear to him that the reason for your stopping fellowship with him is his failure to repent.
I think that you as a concerned other believer can call him to repentance and if he does not repent then treat him as a gentile and a tax gatherer. That’s the scriptural mandate. I mean, you can’t go and beat the guy up, even though you may feel like it—that would be sin in itself.
Question: With non-members do we practice church registration? Do we have members register their attendance?
Answer: Yes, and that’s one of the documents that we would use to verify that they were indeed present in a meeting in which church discipline took place. Yes, we rely on the registration cards. There is a section for “members” and “non-members” to fill out.
Question: Since most church discipline cases involve family—there is family involvement, how do other members of the family deal with the individual under church discipline?
Answer: If it is first, second, or third step, then you carry on as normal because you really don’t know about it, unless you were the individual that confronted him. But if you have gone through step four, it says, “do not eat with such a one,” I would think that would mean that you limit your social involvement with him. If you are going to have a family reunion and you are responsible for the guest list you may accidentally leave him off. If you are not responsible for that but you meet him at a family gathering, the extent of your conversation might be, “Have you repented yet? No? Then that’s all we have to say to each other.”
Now, this is fine for brothers, sisters, and cousins, but not husband and wife. You can’t shun your wife. There are other scriptural teaching on how a wife is to respond to a sinning husband and vice versa. We should imply that since other scripture deals specifically with children in obedience to their parents, that the parent-child relationship should not follow this norm, that it must still remain as a parent and a child.
Question: Occasionally you will have situations where there appears to be, after a brothers reproof, contrition and repentance, but then it occurs again and again, for instance alcohol abuse. How long-suffering should we be?
Answer: Well if I believe what Christ said, seventy times seven times, but I also would believe that you might be dealing with other sins if there is a recurring pattern of sin and repentance, and sin and repentance, and sin and repentance in a specific sin area then there is probably a bigger issue involved and that may be the one you have to deal with where you don’t find contrition.
Question: We have a situation where we don’t have the implied consent, for we haven’t got that there in our constitution. We are about step three with a situation where we have two spouses and one is not faithful and the other is very faithful. We were almost to the point of going to the congregation and they submit a resignation?
Answer: Ok, what about the situation where you are following the process and when you are nearing the end of the process the person submits a resignation from your membership? Our bylaws specifically state that if you are under church discipline you have no right or authority to withdraw from membership. If you are in the process of discipline, which means anything past step one. If the church knows about then you have no right to withdraw and that’s conditioned within the bylaws so withdrawal is not valid.
Now, if you don’t have those provisions in you bylaws does that mean you should stop the procedure? I would submit this question and the specifics of it to legal counsel. There may be cases where you should move forward, and there may be cases where you would be doing more damage to the situation than is necessary by proceeding.
Question: What do you do when the person in the discipline process leaves and goes to another church?
Answer: Well, this happens quite often. If we are aware of the church that they have gone to, then we feel an obligation to notify the leadership of that church, not of what the sin is, but that that individual is fleeing church discipline from us. What they do with that information is their business, but we don’t get into specifics.
Question: Is the church member allowed to attend services when they are in this discipline practice?
Answer: If it is before step four, then yes, they are allowed to attend, even if it has been step three where the whole congregation has been urged to go after them. But if it has gone to step four then they are not welcome. Our first line of defense is our ushers who know of each individual that has been removed from the fellowship, and they, if the person tries to come in, they urge them to leave. Now, we have had cases where the people get belligerent. We have a second line of defense, we call it the “temple guard” it’s generally speaking, people who were in the law enforcement profession and have volunteered to act as special security around here, and they can remove the individual and that has been necessary on occasion. In fact, it has been necessary, on occasion, to get a court order restraining them from being present on our campus.
Question: Based on an earlier question of a person fleeing and going to another church, what if we are that other church that they are fleeing to?
Answer: If we are made aware of the situation, our leadership, who would be the only ones made aware of it, would go as that first step of church discipline to that individual saying, “What’s going on here? This is sinful that you have left that fellowship without legitimate grounds for leaving them. In fact, you are fleeing church discipline. Repent! Go back where you came from. Go back!
Question: If a person flees from the church, in the process of church discipline, do we continue to process to the end?
Answer: Yes. In fact, these registered letters and hand-couriered letters sometimes cross many states.
Question: What do you do with someone that is not in your church any longer but is causing division within your church?
Answer: If they profess to be a believer, whether they are members of our church or members of some other church, if we are aware of that sin: steps one, two, three, and four can be practiced, and steps three and four can be based on the non-member provision we have within our bylaws.
Question: What do you do in the case where a person brings an issue before the leadership in the church having information about sin in the life of someone else and they don’t want to deal with the situation, but they have given you all the details so that you now are part of a gossip train because they gossiped to you. How do you deal with the situation?
Answer: Well, the first thing is to be on your toes when people start bringing issues before you. If it smacks in any way of sin, then cut them off before they give you any details. You don’t need to be party to any of that information, and that’s why our elders are sort of on the defenses about that; that we don’t want to be the only ones dealing with church discipline. We want the whole membership to be dealing with those first two steps.
By the way, those first two steps are effective. How do you know they are effective except by gossip? Not by gossip, but in fellowship groups, in prayer meetings, in Bible studies. Quite often there is testimony by a certain individual who will say, “I really love brother so-and-so because he came to me when I was drifting from the Lord, and he called me back into repentance. We hear those on a regular basis of how people are interacting with each other and bringing purity to the church. So we know that the first two steps are working.
Now, as the leadership in the church, so we’re not the only ones doing it and deprive members of the sweet fellowship of restoring the sinning brother and developing a strong relationship together we want to cut that off before they tell us any information and to make us party to gossip. If they get to far with it we have to reprimand them and usually they do not throw it back in your face saying, “I refuse to repent of gossiping to you”—I just gossiped. Quite often you are going to see repentance there rather quickly.
Question: What do you do when the individual will not follow the first and second step as the rebuker and they won’t deal with this, but they’re telling you and maybe telling others?
Answer: If this is a pattern in their life of gossip then you have got to deal with them, and you are the first individual that knows of it, so even though you’re a leader in the church you don’t take it back to your fellow elders, but you deal with it on a one-on-one [basis]. Then probably your witnesses will be other elders, and then go all the way with it.
Question: What kind of sins do you deal with?
Answer: All kinds of sins. It’s only a certain kind of sin that seems to go to step four. Those seem to be, generally speaking, be sins dealing with immorality, because that seems to be the one area in which people are willing to throw over their family, all the friends they have had over the years—being willing to chuck everything to remain in that sin. They seem to be very hard to repent from, so that tends to be the majority. But we’ve disciplined people for unfair business practices, for continual lying, for spreading dissent within the body. So it’s all kinds of sins, especially when you take it serious that church discipline is not just steps three and four. Church discipline involves those first two steps that can deal with any kind of sin in a person’s life.
Question: What do you do with a sinning pastor? The specific case was one who leaves the fellowship where they were aware of the sin but has done nothing about it, and he goes to another fellowship. How do you deal with that situation?
Answer: If you are aware of it as a leader in the church, in general you should go to that individual and call him to repentance, and if he refuses to repent then take witnesses from either the church that he is now a part of or from the larger community of people that are aware of his life and just follow through with the procedures.
Now you mentioned the Hispanic church, quite often the pastoral role in the Hispanic church is sort of a patriarchal situation and it is very hard to break that mold of confronting the pastor. Scripture is very clear, it doesn’t tell us how we should modify this procedure for certain difficult cases, it just lays out the procedure, so I would urge to follow that procedure.
Added to Bible Bulletin Board's "Shepherd's Conference Collection" by:
Tony Capoccia
Bible Bulletin Board
Box 119
Columbus, New Jersey, USA, 08022
Our websites: www.biblebb.com and www.gospelgems.com
Email: tony@biblebb.com
Online since 1986
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Posts: 8775 | From: USA, MICHIGAN | Registered: Mar 2004
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Michael Z
Advanced Member
Member # 8389
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by MentorsRiddle:
This is a touchy subject for many people.
The Bible calls homosexuality an abomination. This is true.
Homosexuality is a sin – a sexual perversion – and is never acceptable in the eyes of the Lord.
But, is sin in general acceptable to the Lord? No, how could it be?
Here is my stance on homosexuality.
I am sure that there are many who will not agree with me, and that is fine, but I have prayed long and hard about this subject.
Here is what I now believe:
Homosexuality, like any other sin, should not be acceptable. A person should not proudly declare that they are a homosexual; for this is nothing to be boastful about.
There is evidence suggesting that homosexuality is a sickness, a disease, caused from early traumatic experiences: rape, molestation or some other extreme emotional trauma.
That being said, I believe, that the church should be accepting of homosexuals – NOT ACCEPTING OF HOMOSEXUALITY, BUT ACCEPTING OF HOMOSEXUALS.
Here is my reason for this: if these people truly love the Lord with all of their hearts then they will come to realize what they are doing is wrong. The Lord will convict them in their hearts to mend their ways. But, they MUST be allowed to hear the Lord’s Word – for the Lords Word can correct all sin; including homosexuality.
I do not hate homosexuals – I love them. Just as I would love any sinner.
But, if a church is going to be accepting of homosexuals, they need to let it be understood that homosexuality is wrong and the church doesn’t agree with it. Just like the church doesn’t agree with stealing, murder, rape, adultery, etc.
So, if you are coming to church, and you are a homosexual, please don’t be boastful about it – proclaiming yourself a proud homosexual. But, treat it as though it were a sin: something you are not proud of.
If you are a homosexual, lean on the Lord for guidance and pray he help end the cycle of homosexuality and the perversions it brings.
I agree. Welcome the sinner but not the sin. This is the problem with "membership". It equates being a "Brother In The Lord" with being a "Member". Perhaps a solution here is to redefine what you call a "Member" to be. A member could be a regular attendee, but not necessarily a "brother". Add in that any members claiming to be a "brother" in the Lord be held accountable. But until they claim that status openly they should be considered "seekers", no different from any other person visiting the church, welcome to the church regardless of lifestyle. And offer no guaranteed privileges like marriage in the church to members. By making this modification, you are not obligated to remove this "member".
Posts: 46 | Registered: Nov 2010
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WildB
Moderator
Member # 2917
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posted
 TRAINING THEMES
Church Discipline
Make discipline a positive, healthy part of your ministry.
https://secure2.christianitytoday.com/bclstore/addtocart.aspx?productid=2206&variantid=5181&tcode=92FFE08D0D
Discipline can either be formative or corrective. For example, training for a sporting event requires formative discipline; punishing a misbehaving child requires corrective discipline. We know that God's motive in disciplining us is his love for us. If he let us continue to commit the same sin with impunity, he would not love us enough to teach us the importance of avoiding sin. Use these tools to train your church leaders how to discipline the church with love and for growth. This download features a new format that includes audio clips within the document, and a newly redesigned accompanying PowerPoint.
This Training Pack contains all of the following:
Facing Conflict with a Difference
The church doesn’t take its cues from the world when sin comes into the body.
Ken Sande
Discipline for Discipleship
God communicates his love to us by shaping us into his image—even when we rebel.
Mark Dever
Prepared for Church Discipline
Make sure your church is healthy enough to be edified by confronting sin as a body.
Donald Bubna, Keith Walker, Jim Van Yperen
Does Your Church Teach Discipline Well?
Consider how your church exemplifies and supports healthy discipline.
John H. Fish III
Making Church Discipline Legal
Does your church have the legal protection to confront someone about his or her sin?
Ken Sande
Trapped in Sin
Educate your congregation about God’s goal of restoration through discipline.
David V. Edling
Disciplining a Pillar of the Church
Discipline is not always successful, but it is still right.
Name Withheld
A New Attitude Toward Discipline
It isn’t a necessary evil; it’s a blessing from God.
interview with Ken Sande
The Laws of Confrontation
Regardless of the offense, use these principles in your discipline process.
Lehman Hotchkiss
Sued Because of Church Discipline
Follow this advice and avoid the pitfalls of discussing sin openly in a culture of lawsuits.
Richard Hammar
The Discipline Process
The words of Jesus give us clear directions on the procedure of church discipline.
Donald Bubna
How To Make Restoration Work
Have a plan for bringing a sister or brother back into your fellowship.
Mark Lauterbach
Divine Family Discipline
The church is God’s family—a place of joy, fellowship, love, and discipline.
David Neff
Disciplining a Leader
It’s hard to confront a leader caught in sin, but the Bible shows how to do it.
Kent Hughes
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Posts: 8775 | From: USA, MICHIGAN | Registered: Mar 2004
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WildB
Moderator
Member # 2917
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posted
Looks like your church is not healthy enough to be edified by confronting sin as a body.
Start off by getting everybody on the same page.
Judge Not—Judge All Things
By Cornelius R. Stam
How often, in our efforts to "stand" for the truth and "withstand" error, we have been taken to task with the use of such Scripture passages as "Judge not, that ye be not judged" (Matt. 7:1) and "the servant of the Lord must not strive" (II Tim. 2:24).
These passages taken by themselves and out of context can induce weak believers to great irresponsibility, but it is our purpose in this article to examine the Scriptures as a whole and see what they have to say about judging others, or judging what they say or do.
The Scriptures have much to say about judging others and several synonyms are used. Since, however, one Greek word, "krino" is most often used in discussing this subject, and since this is the word our Lord used when He said, "Judge not," we will deal only with those passages in which this Greek root "krino" (to judge) and its derivatives, "anakrino" (to judge strictly) and "diakrino" (to judge thoroughly) are used. In this way there can at least be little or no "strife about words."
If the interpretation so often placed upon our Lord's words, "Judge not," were consistent with the Scriptures as a whole, we would not—indeed, should not—have had a Scofield, a Darby, a Calvin, a Luther—or a Paul, for those who interpret it thus surely would have taken strong exception as Paul and Barnabas "had no small dissension and disputation" with the Judaizers who had come to Antioch, seeking to bring the Gentile believers there under the Law, or as later at Jerusalem, Paul "gave place by subjection" to these same Judaizers, "no, not for an hour, that the truth of the gospel might continue with [the Gentiles]" (Acts 15:2; Gal. 2:5).
As to the root word "krino," (to judge), it should be observed at the outset that some of the passages using this word urge us not to judge, while others teach as strongly that we should judge, indeed, that "he that is spiritual judgeth all things" (I Cor. 2:15), so that the interpretation of any Scriptural statement on judging must be determined, not by any "private interpretation," but in the light of the context and/or of related Scripture passages.
JUDGE NOT
"Judge not, that ye be not judged" (Matt. 7:1).
Our Lord's words here have, of course, to do with judging persons (obviously for what they do or fail to do), but Verse 5 indicates that they have reference to a certain type of critic, "Thou hypocrite," or one who has a "beam" in his own eye, while criticizing the "mote" (any small, dry particle) in his brother's eye. Such a critic would surely not be the "spiritual" person of I Corinthians 2:15. Thus Matthew 7:1,2 is a warning that if you are too quick to judge others, you may expect others to judge you. The parallel passage in Luke 6:37,38 brings this out even more forcefully. Paul, also, in Romans 2:1, says to those who hypocritically condemn others:
"...wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things."
In Romans 14:4-13 the Apostle has an extended exhortation on such readiness to judge others. Dealing with the friction between those on the one hand who feel free to "eat all things," and those on the other who are convicted that they should only "eat herbs," he says:
"Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth; for God hath received him" (Ver. 3).
In Verses 10,12 he urges those on both sides to refrain from criticizing each other since all of us—each one individually—will one day give a personal account to God:
"But why dost thou judge thy brother?1 or why dost thou set at nought thy brother?2 for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ."
"So then, every one of us shall give account of himself to God."
And he concludes:
"Let us not therefore judge one another any more; but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way" (Ver. 13).
It is important to note that all this has to do with judging one another as to way of life; indeed, Romans 14 has to do with judging one another in matters not specifically dealt with in the Word of God. Such judgment should be left to Christ, at whose "judgment seat" we shall all one day stand. In the same vein the Apostle says in I Corinthians 4:5:
"Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who will both bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God."
Let us then rather be criticized than to criticize, rather be judged than to judge—except in matters where God has given us the clear knowledge of His will. To the Galatians, for example, who had been enticed to go back under the Law after Christ had so gloriously set them free, the Apostle wrote:
"Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage" (Gal. 5:1).
And then he proceeds to tell them in stern language how they will belittle Christ, and what the results will be if they continue in their course.
Thus too, he writes to the brethren at Colosse, this time urging them not to accept the criticisms of those who would bring them under the Law:
"Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holy day, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
"Which are a shadow of things to come, but the Body [i.e., the substance] is of Christ" (Col. 2:16,17).
HE THAT IS SPIRITUAL JUDGETH ALL THINGS
But where God has clearly made His truth and will known believers should judge between truth and error, not only "standing" for what is right, but "withstanding" what is wrong (Eph. 6:11,13), and this often involves "judging" and "withstanding" persons involved. Using the same root, krino, the Apostle says:
"But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man" (I Cor. 2:15).
The truly spiritual man is so far above the wisest sages of this world, yea, so far above the mass of Christians with whom he comes in contact with, that he can understand them, but they can never quite understand him.3 It is a sad fact, however, that in the Church today, as in that of Paul's day, there are so few, comparatively, who are truly spiritual and truly qualified to judge. Referring to the senseless and shameful contentions among the Corinthian believers, Paul wrote:
"I speak to your shame. Is it so, that there is not a wise man among you? no, not one that shall be able to judge between his brethren?" (I Cor. 6:5).
Here he reprimands them because there is not one man among them who is spiritual enough to reprove the wrong and defend the right.
Indeed, Paul himself, an eminently spiritual man of God, once found it necessary to rebuke Peter publicly, even though Peter had been used of God to bring thousands to Messiah's feet before Paul had even been converted. Read the passage carefully:
"But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed.
"For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles; but when they were come he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the Circumcision.
"And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him, insomuch that Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation [hypocrisy].
"But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou being a Jew, livest after the manner of the Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?" (Gal. 2:11-14).
Surely this must have been embarrassing to Peter, but who can deny that Paul was right in thus dealing with this crisis, stepping in immediately to rebuke Peter's hypocrisy in going back on the great truths which God had revealed to him with regard to the oneness of Jewish and Gentile believers in Christ. Paul's action was not only right; it was necessary lest Peter "build again" the wall of separation between Jewish and Gentile believers which he himself had helped to "destroy" (Ver. 18 cf. Acts 15:9-11).
While Paul, in I Corinthians, deals with judging in the context of spirituality, he is not the first in Scripture to declare that God's people should, when truly qualified, judge others. When Christ Himself was judged by His antagonists, He said:
"Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment" (John 7:24).
Surely our Lord indicated by these words that His hearers should judge—fairly and rightly, though "hypocrites" (as in Matt. 7:1-5 above) should take care not to judge at all.
In I Corinthians 6:2,3, the Apostle declares that believers will one day "judge the world" and will even "judge angels," basing upon this fact his exhortation that they should be able to judge in matters pertaining to this life (Ver. 3) and reproving them for their inability "to judge the smallest matters" (Ver. 2). And in Verse 5, as we have seen, he speaks to their shame that there is not even one among them who is spiritual enough, and therefore respected enough, to judge between his brethren.
Thus God calls upon His people, not merely to judge others, but to be such as are qualified, morally and spiritually, to judge in matters concerning truth and error or right conduct and wrong.
Thus he instructs Timothy and Titus, both truly spiritual men of God, to act in situations in which it is necessary to judge. To Timothy he writes:
"Them that sin4 rebuke before all, that others also may fear" (I Tim. 5:20).
And again:
"...reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine" (II Tim. 4:2).
Likewise, to Titus he writes:
"For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting, and ordain elders in every city, as I have appointed thee" (Titus 1:5).
"For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision;
"Whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not, for filthy lucre's sake" (Vers. 10,11).
Not just anyone would be qualified, spiritually and morally, to judge the recalcitrant believers to whom Timothy and Titus ministered, but these two men of God were thus qualified and the Apostle instructed them to do so firmly.
This brings us to a most important consideration appertaining to us all.
JUDGING OURSELVES
In Paul's well-known passage on the Lord's Supper, he warns against partaking of this sacred memorial in an unworthy manner (I Cor. 11:27), as some of the Corinthians were indeed doing. "Let a man examine himself," he says, "and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup" (Ver. 28).
Indeed, it was because they had been so irresponsible in this matter that it had become necessary for God to discipline them. Many among them were "weak and sickly," and some had even been taken away in death (Ver. 30). This would not have been necessary, the Apostle declares, if they had judged themselves (Vers. 31,32), each one carefully examining himself in the presence of the Lord so that he might be in the proper spiritual condition to celebrate the death of Christ for sin. Concluding his remarks about living so that they could partake of this remembrance in a worthy and sincere manner, he says:
"For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged.
"But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world" (I Cor. 11:31,32).
Whatever one's dispensational views of the celebration of the Lord's death at "the Lord's table," all of us should surely take the Apostle's exhortation here to heart. If we would judge ourselves God would not have to discipline us for our irresponsibility and we would be in a better position to serve Him as those who are truly spiritual.
This writer is keenly aware that the mere fact that a man judges others does not of itself indicate that he is truly spiritual. Indeed, one who judges himself and is truly spiritual will not be quick to judge others. Yet, should it not be our desire to be truly spiritual so that we might correctly "judge all things" (I Cor. 2:15) and, thus judging, "stand" for what is Scriptural and right and "withstand" what is unscriptural and wrong, even when, in so doing, it is necessary to withstand those who teach or practice what is unscriptural and wrong?
Away, then, with the use of such passages as II Timothy 2:24 and Matthew 7:1 merely as excuses for irresponsibility and for the criticism of those who seek to stand true to God and His Word. Let us rather consider prayerfully all that God says about judging, that we might truly please and honor Him.
Endnotes
1. i.e., the one who feels he may eat all things.
2. i.e., the one who feels he should not eat all things.
3. The writer's book, True Spirituality, deals at length with this subject.
4. The present active participle, i.e., those who persist in sin.
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That is all.....
Posts: 8775 | From: USA, MICHIGAN | Registered: Mar 2004
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MentorsRiddle
Advanced Member
Member # 2108
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This is a touchy subject for many people.
The Bible calls homosexuality an abomination. This is true.
Homosexuality is a sin – a sexual perversion – and is never acceptable in the eyes of the Lord.
But, is sin in general acceptable to the Lord? No, how could it be?
Here is my stance on homosexuality.
I am sure that there are many who will not agree with me, and that is fine, but I have prayed long and hard about this subject.
Here is what I now believe:
Homosexuality, like any other sin, should not be acceptable. A person should not proudly declare that they are a homosexual; for this is nothing to be boastful about.
There is evidence suggesting that homosexuality is a sickness, a disease, caused from early traumatic experiences: rape, molestation or some other extreme emotional trauma.
That being said, I believe, that the church should be accepting of homosexuals – NOT ACCEPTING OF HOMOSEXUALITY, BUT ACCEPTING OF HOMOSEXUALS.
Here is my reason for this: if these people truly love the Lord with all of their hearts then they will come to realize what they are doing is wrong. The Lord will convict them in their hearts to mend their ways. But, they MUST be allowed to hear the Lord’s Word – for the Lords Word can correct all sin; including homosexuality.
I do not hate homosexuals – I love them. Just as I would love any sinner.
But, if a church is going to be accepting of homosexuals, they need to let it be understood that homosexuality is wrong and the church doesn’t agree with it. Just like the church doesn’t agree with stealing, murder, rape, adultery, etc.
So, if you are coming to church, and you are a homosexual, please don’t be boastful about it – proclaiming yourself a proud homosexual. But, treat it as though it were a sin: something you are not proud of.
If you are a homosexual, lean on the Lord for guidance and pray he help end the cycle of homosexuality and the perversions it brings.
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With you I rise,
In you I sleep,
kneeling down I kiss your feet,
Grace abounds upon me now,
I once was lost
but now I'm found.
The gift of God dwells within,
To this love I now give in.
Posts: 1337 | From: Arkansas | Registered: Sep 2003
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Michael Z
Advanced Member
Member # 8389
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posted
I think you and your pastor need to start another church. Myself, I dislike the whole "membership" concept. I have seen this abused so much. "Members" show up out of the woodwork when a vote comes up, especially if it is to oust the pastor. My preference is that people become "members" based on their beliefs and actions - something they know in their hearts is valid or invalid according to the Word. And of all your "members", how many of the men are viewing pornography or practicing some other type of sin? We single out homosexuality, yet viewing porn is just as big a sin. That is not to excuse either practice among "believers" BTW. And we should welcome ALL sinners into church - that is what we are called to do. But calling them "brother in the Lord" is another matter - scripture makes that clear.
I would agree with your pastor - the Word is the Word. And I believe any Deacon that defends a member knowingly practicing a lifestyle in contradiction to the scripture "Expel the immoral brother" should also be removed from their position. But that won't happen. You have a corrupted church. Sounds like a big mess brewing. I come from such a situation where we had young couples living together while unmarried, expecting the pastor to marry them in church, because their families had been "members" of the church for many decades. The pastor and some members ended up starting another church that lacked the niceties (building, programs, etc) of a formal church (which is a blessing I think). Yeah a split - but sometimes a split is needed if the original church is corrupted with sin or acceptance of sin at the leadership level. Unless you can have both the member and the supporting deacon removed, this church is corrupted.
Posts: 46 | Registered: Nov 2010
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jwolf6589
Community Member
Member # 8359
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Yesterday during a vote in my church to remove a Homosexual woman from membership 40% of the church voted to keep her as a member (which is what happened), and some of those on the deacon board suggested from the open mic that removing her would be moving the church in a Fundamentalist direction. I was so saddened by what happened yesterday. But the truth is that the senior pastor needs prayer, as I am sure there are those on the deacon board that want him out for preaching the Bible, and for suggesting this homosexual be removed from membership.
John
Posts: 12 | Registered: Oct 2010
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