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Topic: Should a christian "serve" his country in the Military?
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WildB
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Member # 2917
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by barrykind:
ENOUGH SAID!
![[wave3]](graemlins/18.gif)
YEA WORM; ALL IS WRITTEN!
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That is all.....
Posts: 8775 | From: USA, MICHIGAN | Registered: Mar 2004
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barrykind
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Member # 35
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posted
ENOUGH SAID!
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The HEART of the issue is truly the issue of the HEART!
John 3:3;Mark 8:34-38;James 1:27
Posts: 3529 | From: Orange, Texas | Registered: Jun 2002
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WildB
Moderator
Member # 2917
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Carol Swenson:
quote:
Originally posted by barrykind:
Its ironic when some of you dismiss the "old" covenant, for the "New" until you try to prove a point.
It's obvious that you use the Old Testament to prove the Law and Ten Commandments, but you use the New Testament to disprove military service.
lol just taint right!
![[rapture]](graemlins/rapture.gif)
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That is all.....
Posts: 8775 | From: USA, MICHIGAN | Registered: Mar 2004
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Carol Swenson
Admin
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by barrykind:
Its ironic when some of you dismiss the "old" covenant, for the "New" until you try to prove a point.
It's obvious that you use the Old Testament to prove the Law and Ten Commandments, but you use the New Testament to disprove military service.
Posts: 6787 | From: Colorado | Registered: Dec 2007
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Eduardo Grequi
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Member # 3984
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posted
We are going to have a cival war soon and external war very soon whether you want it or not. When good people do nothing and tyranny and the axis of evil reigns, our own government become more evil every day our country dies and becomes dust as have Egypt. Forshadowing the prophecy it foretold that the dragon would come down on the fig tree and the bear from the north to trodden Jerusalem and the eagle would fall. It would not be the first time a powerful kingdom falls. Look at Babylon, Rome, Ottoman, Greek, Inca, Mayan, Aztec and Medes/Persian these kingdoms all have fallen. There are two kingdoms yet alive, Kingdom of Islam and the Kingdom of Jesus the Christ (Jesus is Lords or lords and King of kings). If in both of these Kingdoms they claim supremecy, whose God will win. Either the God of Jacob, Isaac and Abraham is the real living God or the Allah the god of Islam and his prophet Mohammad. They each have holy scriptures that define who they are. The followers of these two can not be serving the same God otherwise we would have been living in peace. What is war? War is act of defiance against something or someone. Jesus said he who lives by the sword will die by it as well. And the Holy Christian Scriptures is called the Sword of the Lord and of Gideon we must live by it.
Posts: 771 | From: Belvidere, IL | Registered: Oct 2004
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MentorsRiddle
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Member # 2108
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posted
quote:
Its ironic when some of you dismiss the "old" covenant, for the "New" until you try to prove a point.
Well, I for one, believe there is value in knowledge in the old covenant and practical use for the new.
That being said – God commanded his people to war many times.
MANY TIMES
And the bible is very clear that God does not change.
So, if God of the Old Testament felt war was necessary so evil could not persevere – then it would stand to reason that the God of the New Testament, which is the same God, whould wish the same….
And that is biblical. ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
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With you I rise,
In you I sleep,
kneeling down I kiss your feet,
Grace abounds upon me now,
I once was lost
but now I'm found.
The gift of God dwells within,
To this love I now give in.
Posts: 1337 | From: Arkansas | Registered: Sep 2003
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barrykind
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Member # 35
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posted
Betty states:
quote:
God called Israel to battle many times. God expects us to stand up for what is right. Jesus said if we see a man cold or hungry and bless the man without giving him a coat for feeding a man we did wrong. When our Country sees misjustice in the world we should go to war to end the misjustice.
The military often fights for the good of mankind.
If you live in a Country that is going for war who is not on the good side and you are called to join the military you are to obey the laws of the land. You pray and you do your best to serve your Country without doing wrong. Remember not everyone in the Military goes to war and not everyone who goes to war has had to kill someone. God is able to help the person honor the laws of their Country without doing wrong.
As it has been shown Jesus did not tell the man in the military to quit his job.
Not everyone is meant to serve, but everyone should respect those who are courageous enough to put their lives on the line for us in war.
We should never make the statement that a Christian should not serve in the Military. That is contrary to the Bible where at times God called on the men of Israel to wipe out a whole city men and children. When Israel broke God's command and saved people who God said kill, Israel paid dearly for their disobedience.
While if you have to kill a person to save another person's life and that person goes to hell, you could also be saving the next person that he or she would have killed. What if the next person killed by the killer was not saved yet. You have to look at both pictures. I have more concern for the lost person who was murdered then for the killer who died because he was pointing a gun at another person with the intention of killing them. Victims do not choose to be victims but killers choose to be killers.
those who kill in self defense are not killers. Those who kill unarmed people are killers.
betty
Its ironic when some of you dismiss the "old" covenant, for the "New" until you try to prove a point.
There at that time was only (1) People of YHWH, Israel, Jews. All other nations was Heathen, pagan.
Because of Abraham, the promise YHWH made, He chose people out of Abrahams seed.
We do not see eye to eye on this matter Sister, but if you read my post above that is my answer to your questions and how i see it.
love
barry
![[hug]](graemlins/hug.gif)
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The HEART of the issue is truly the issue of the HEART!
John 3:3;Mark 8:34-38;James 1:27
Posts: 3529 | From: Orange, Texas | Registered: Jun 2002
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Betty Louise
Advanced Member
Member # 7175
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posted
God called Israel to battle many times. God expects us to stand up for what is right. Jesus said if we see a man cold or hungry and bless the man without giving him a coat for feeding a man we did wrong. When our Country sees misjustice in the world we should go to war to end the misjustice.
The military often fights for the good of mankind.
If you live in a Country that is going for war who is not on the good side and you are called to join the military you are to obey the laws of the land. You pray and you do your best to serve your Country without doing wrong. Remember not everyone in the Military goes to war and not everyone who goes to war has had to kill someone. God is able to help the person honor the laws of their Country without doing wrong.
As it has been shown Jesus did not tell the man in the military to quit his job.
Not everyone is meant to serve, but everyone should respect those who are courageous enough to put their lives on the line for us in war.
We should never make the statement that a Christian should not serve in the Military. That is contrary to the Bible where at times God called on the men of Israel to wipe out a whole city men and children. When Israel broke God's command and saved people who God said kill, Israel paid dearly for their disobedience.
While if you have to kill a person to save another person's life and that person goes to hell, you could also be saving the next person that he or she would have killed. What if the next person killed by the killer was not saved yet. You have to look at both pictures. I have more concern for the lost person who was murdered then for the killer who died because he was pointing a gun at another person with the intention of killing them. Victims do not choose to be victims but killers choose to be killers.
those who kill in self defense are not killers. Those who kill unarmed people are killers.
betty
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
Posts: 5051 | From: Houston, Texas | Registered: May 2008
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barrykind
Advanced Member
Member # 35
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posted
Carol states:
quote:
Really? Well, one of the statements in the article is:
quote:
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We are commanded to hate what is evil and cling to what is good (Romans 12:9). In doing so we must take a stand against what is evil in this world and pursue righteousness (2 Timothy 2:22).
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barry, do you know what a pedophile is?
I think crimes against children are the worst. To me a pedophile epitomizes evil. They steal children, rape and murder them, then dump their little bodies in trash heaps and the like. Sometimes they sell them to other pedophiles. They need to be locked away.
Yes mam i know exactly what they are and do; we live in a town of 18,000 and there are at least 54 registered in our city, countless scores more in the county.
And i see why, because of the "quote against evil" you posted what you were meaning.
I too believe that the must be caught, and stopped, tried and if found guilty, sentenced to prision. Prayerfully they will be "born again" from above, start a "life time" prison ministry.
My mother in law was "living" with a convicted child molester. He was 36 or 38 when he molested an 8 yr old girl on "his" birthday.
He served 8ys for the crime. we confronted him and hesaid he did not do it, but to save the little girl, trama from going to court so he pleaded guilty.
Later when he was out of prison is when my mother in law met up with him.
My lil sister in law was 11 and living with them.
We took her in and raised her til she was 18-19 had an estalished job and was in college!
Yes mam i know exactly what one is, i di a LOT of praying, and crying out to God for mercy on my heart...For if were not careful...A ROOT OF BITTERNESS will spring up in our heart and defile us..
i told my wife im having a hard time with this honey, i really dont want to "kill" the man; but i surely would like to "BUST HIM UP" a might; and we prayed the Lord would take such bitterness out of my heart..
Was the bitternes and anger normal..yes in the "flesh", was i justified..No because i was walking in the flesh and not in the spirit!
How can we be martyrs for Yahushua, if we want to kill folks and let our heart rule with the "god" of this world?
Have you ever read the "Foxes Book of Martyrs" folks?
If were not "sold" out to Yahushua [Jesus]; we will seek to "save" our life and then in turn "lose" it!
Luke 17:
32Remember Lot's wife.
33Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life
Are we "sold" out to YHWH, or we still reaping to our flesh!
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The HEART of the issue is truly the issue of the HEART!
John 3:3;Mark 8:34-38;James 1:27
Posts: 3529 | From: Orange, Texas | Registered: Jun 2002
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Carol Swenson
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posted
If someone attacked your family, and you or the police could stop them without killing them, wouldn't you? Police action doesn't involve killing all the time, just arrests.
Posts: 6787 | From: Colorado | Registered: Dec 2007
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barrykind
Advanced Member
Member # 35
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posted
Betty stated:
quote:
So, Barry, if your house if robbed do you call the police? If you come home to find your wife has been attacked do you call the police? If the police come and they kill the person that is attacking your wife are you going to get upset for them defending your wife?
We cannot be a person who does not believe in defending family and Country and yet still expect police to defend your family.
And if it is okay for the Police to defend us then it is no different for the Military to defend all of us.
betty
It is the law to call police if you witness or have a robbery in Texas, so yes I probably would, depends on circumstances.
If I come home and found my wife attacked would I call the police, here again it’s the law and probably would, depends on circumstances.
If the police killed some one on our behalf I would be grieved, for to me , the one killed has been issued a death sentence and in all likelyhood..went to hell.
Never said I would not defend my family…..I just see it as spiritual warfare and not “flesh” carnal warfare..
Do we believe what the bible says, do we believe YHWH will avenge us, or do we think “maybe we need to take matters into our own hands”!
This is complicated when it does not have to be Sister.
A friend of mine one time had a dream, that a man came and broke into his house and he was going to do evil to his family…
My friend “Mack” took out a gun and killed the man..
Then Mack looked out the window and saw 4 men coming up the drive with the same intent…
So Mack said he went to the gun locker and took out a rifle, killed all 4 men.
Mack said then he looked out the window and about 3 bus loads of attackers came up the driveway with about 60-100 men, Mack said “I cried out God save me, help me Father…
Mack then said he heard clear as a bell..the Father say:
“Why do you call on me now, I could of helped you when the first man arrived, not that odds are overwhelmingly against you, you want me to intervene?
When you had the odds in your favor you thought I can handle this on my own, and now your asking me when you have a situation beyond what your able.”
Mack said he woke up shaking, weeping and praying.
This is a simple way to explain how I see scripture, im not a coward.
To be honest with you I believe im 100% right about what im stating, if ask would I do what I said?…im not 100% sure what I would do..
I might do bodily harm to such a one that attacked my family..I pray I would cry out to my Father YHWH; But I know what is right to do, whether I do it or not doesn’t matter as far as the principal of what is right.
I was pondering this very thing some years ago, and I thought of a person coming into my house to attack us or rob us, and I thought what would I do. I thought I would stop him even if it meant his death..
The I feel, was the Lord, saying in my heart, if I was to return at the moment you shot that man, how would you feel son?
I then felt Him say, if I was to return at that moment, and you were laying on the ground, bleeding, and with your last dying breath you cried out Father forgive him, he does not know what he does?
The first scenario is to sentence that man that broke in my house to hell!
I now have ended his earthly life…..I have become the judge and jury of his soul.
The second scenario, I died for what I believe the YHWH has taught me, and my Master Yashushua, The man then can be convicted by the Holy Spirit and have chance at the glorious salvation….
Would one love to know that the man went to heaven and looked you up and said thank you my Brother for not condemning me to hell..
this is the way I see it…
It is to me simplicity in Messiah, its all about HIS LOVE>
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The HEART of the issue is truly the issue of the HEART!
John 3:3;Mark 8:34-38;James 1:27
Posts: 3529 | From: Orange, Texas | Registered: Jun 2002
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barrykind
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Member # 35
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posted
Betty said"
quote:
And yet again Barry refuses to answer my questions. Of course I know why. If he admitted he would call the Police, that would show him to be the hypocrite that he is.
betty
was not intentional....had to help the family...illgo back and find your question..
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The HEART of the issue is truly the issue of the HEART!
John 3:3;Mark 8:34-38;James 1:27
Posts: 3529 | From: Orange, Texas | Registered: Jun 2002
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Betty Louise
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posted
And yet again Barry refuses to answer my questions. Of course I know why. If he admitted he would call the Police, that would show him to be the hypocrite that he is.
betty
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
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Carol Swenson
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posted
Iron Sharpens Iron is a non-denominational fellowship of Law Enforcement Officers that follow the teachings of Jesus Christ. Iron Sharpens Iron was established so that law enforcement officers can join together to support, encourage and enrich one another, as we grow in the strength of the one true God. Iron Sharpens Iron is dedicated to the growth in personal integrity and family relationships through the power of and faith in Jesus Christ.
Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful; and let us consider how to stimulate one another to love and good deeds, not forsaking our own assembling together, as is the habit of some, but encourage one another; and all the more, as you see the day drawing near.
Hebrews 10:23-25
In the law enforcement profession we deal with some of the worst things that mankind can bring upon itself. Law enforcement officers must function in a world that most of society will never see, come in contact with, or need to face. We understand that this can discourage and harden our hearts to the point that we stop caring for others, especially those who are closest to us, our family, friends and loved ones. We also understand that experiencing such depravity in man, can make us question God.
Trying to deal with the negative side of the law enforcement experience in our own strength can lead to anger, isolation, frustration, confusion, resentment and even hatred. These problems manifest themselves in personnel complaints, marital problems, unhealthy relationships, substance abuse, and even suicide.
We believe that law enforcement work is a calling from God and that God speaks about the law enforcement officer in the Bible. . .
"Let every person be in subjection to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God." Romans 13:1
"For the police officer does not frighten people who are doing right; but those doing evil will always fear the police officer. So if you don't want to be afraid, keep the laws and you will get along well. The police officer is sent by God to help you. But if you are doing something wrong, of course you should be afraid, for the police officer will have you punished. The police officer is sent by God for that very purpose." Romans 13:3,4
Our God has given those of us in Law Enforcement a tremendous responsibility, but God also makes available to us a way that allows us to perform our duties without falling victim to the evil that we encounter. Officer Survival classes teach us how to deal with physical attacks, however true Officer Survival involves physical as well as mental and spiritual survival. To truly survive the law enforcement profession we believe it is necessary to have a personal relationship with God, through His Son, Jesus Christ, to study God’s word daily, to pray without ceasing, and to have fellowship with other believers.
http://www.christiancops.org/index.shtml
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Carol Swenson
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posted
I agree that people who do evil are compelled, or at least influenced, by Satan and we should pray for them. Spiritual warfare (not warefare) and deliverance are important ministries. But the people who do evil must also be stopped. If they can be stopped without violence, good. We should not hate them, but we hate what they do.
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barrykind
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Member # 35
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posted
Spiritual Warefare not carnal warefare
2 Corinthians 10
1Now I Paul myself beseech you by the meekness and gentleness of Christ, who in presence am base among you, but being absent am bold toward you:
2But I beseech you, that I may not be bold when I am present with that confidence, wherewith I think to be bold against some, which think of us as if we walked according to the flesh.
3For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh:
4(For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;)
5Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;
48Now he that betrayed him gave them a sign, saying, Whomsoever I shall kiss, that same is he: hold him fast.
49And forthwith he came to Jesus, and said, Hail, master; and kissed him.
50And Jesus said unto him, Friend, wherefore art thou come? Then came they, and laid hands on Jesus and took him.
51And, behold, one of them which were with Jesus stretched out his hand, and drew his sword, and struck a servant of the high priest's, and smote off his ear.
52Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.
53Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?
John 18
33Then Pilate entered into the judgment hall again, and called Jesus, and said unto him, Art thou the King of the Jews?
34Jesus answered him, Sayest thou this thing of thyself, or did others tell it thee of me?
35Pilate answered, Am I a Jew? Thine own nation and the chief priests have delivered thee unto me: what hast thou done?
36Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.
37Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.
2 Cor 10:
3For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh:
4(For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;)
Eph 6:
10Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might.
11Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.
12For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
13Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.
14Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness;
15And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace;
16Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.
17And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:
18Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;
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The HEART of the issue is truly the issue of the HEART!
John 3:3;Mark 8:34-38;James 1:27
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Carol Swenson
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posted
Really? Well, one of the statements in the article is:
quote:
We are commanded to hate what is evil and cling to what is good (Romans 12:9). In doing so we must take a stand against what is evil in this world and pursue righteousness (2 Timothy 2:22).
barry, do you know what a pedophile is?
I think crimes against children are the worst. To me a pedophile epitomizes evil. They steal children, rape and murder them, then dump their little bodies in trash heaps and the like. Sometimes they sell them to other pedophiles. They need to be locked away.
Posts: 6787 | From: Colorado | Registered: Dec 2007
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barrykind
Advanced Member
Member # 35
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posted
Carol states:
quote:
Law enforcement. It isn't military, but it is part of the same question. There are people who need to be stopped from the evil they do to others.
i understood that, i meant the pic...did not see what it had to do with the article
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The HEART of the issue is truly the issue of the HEART!
John 3:3;Mark 8:34-38;James 1:27
Posts: 3529 | From: Orange, Texas | Registered: Jun 2002
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barrykind
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posted
Melito, a leading Christian leader wrote around 170 A.D., that if a leader is just, then God provides peace:
My opinion is this: that in `this' way a kingdom may be governed in peace-when the sovereign is acquainted with the God of truth, and is withheld by fear of Him from doing wrong to those who are his subjects, and judges everything with equity, as one who knows that he himself also will be judged before God; while, at the same time, those who are under his rule are withheld by the fear of God from doing wrong to their sovereign, and are restrained by the same fear from doing wrong to one another. By this knowledge of God and fear of Him all evil may be removed from the realm. For, if the sovereign abstain from doing wrong to those who are under his rule, and they abstain from doing wrong to him and to each other, it is evident that the whole country will dwell in peace. Many blessings, too, will be enjoyed there, because amongst them all the name of God will be glorified. For what blessing is greater than this, that a sovereign should deliver the people that are under his rule from error, and by this good deed render himself pleasing to God? For from error arise all those evils from which kingdoms suffer; but the greatest of all errors is this: when a man is ignorant of God, and in God's stead worships that which is not God. (Melito. Translation by Roberts and Donaldson. A DISCOURSE WHICH WAS IN THE PRESENCE OF ANTONINUS CAESAR, AND HE EXHORTED THE SAID CAESAR TO ACQUAINT HIMSELF WITH GOD, AND SHOWED TO HIM THE WAY OF TRUTH. Online version copyright © 2001 Peter Kirby. http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/melito.html 11/18/06).
Tatian, a professing Christian apologist, wrote around 170 A.D.:
And for these the witnesses take their seats, and the boxers meet in single combat, for no reason whatever, nor does any one come down into the arena to succour. Do such exhibitions as these redound to your credit? He who is chief among you collects a legion of blood-stained murderers, engaging to maintain them; and these ruffians are sent forth by him, and you assemble at the spectacle to be judges, partly of the wickedness of the adjudicator, and partly of that of the men who engage in the combat. And he who misses the murderous exhibition is grieved, because he was not doomed to be a spectator of wicked and impious and abominable deeds (Tatian. Translated by J.E. Ryland. Tatian's Address to the Greeks, Chapter XXIII . Excerpted from Ante-Nicene Fathers, Volume 2. Edited by Alexander Roberts & James Donaldson. American Edition, 1885. Online Edition Copyright © 2004 by K. Knight).
Athenagoras, a professing Christian apologist, wrote around 170 A.D.:
What man of sound mind, therefore, will affirm, while such is our character, that we are murderers?...
Who does not reckon among the things of greatest interest the contests of gladiators and wild beasts, especially those which are given by you? But we, deeming that to see a man put to death is much the same as killing him, have abjured such spectacles (Athenagoras. A Plea for the Christians, Chapter XXXV. Translated by B.P. Pratten. Excerpted from Ante-Nicene Fathers, Volume 2. Edited by Alexander Roberts & James Donaldson. American Edition, 1885. Online Edition Copyright © 2004 by K. Knight).
Even today, many Christians realize that watching brutal events intent on causing physical harm, such as real boxing, is inappropriate.
Notice that this is also the position of the third century Catholic theologian and bishop Hippolytus, who also adds various occupations to those that reject one from being a follower of Christ:
16:6 A charioteer, likewise, or one who takes part in the games, or one who goes to the games, he shall cease or he shall be rejected. 7 If someone is a gladiator, or one who teaches those among the gladiators how to fight, or a hunter who is in the wild beast shows in the arena, or a public official who is concerned with gladiator shows, either he shall cease, or he shall be rejected. 8 If someone is a priest of idols, or an attendant of idols, he shall cease or he shall be rejected. 9 A military man in authority must not execute men. If he is ordered, he must not carry it out. Nor must he take military oath. If he refuses, he shall be rejected. 10 If someone is a military governor, or the ruler of a city who wears the purple, he shall cease or he shall be rejected. 11 The catechumen or faithful who wants to become a soldier is to be rejected, for he has despised God. (Hippolytus. The Apostolic Tradition of Hippolytus of Rome. From the work of Bernard Botte (La Tradition Apostolique. Sources Chretiennes, 11 bis. Paris, Editions du Cerf, 1984) and of Gregory Dix (The Treatise on the Apostolic Tradition of St. Hippolytus of Rome, Bishop and Martyr. London: Alban Press, 1992) as translated by Kevin P. Edgecomb http://www.bombaxo.com/hippolytus.html viewed 08/06/09)
As late as the beginning of the fourth century, the apologist Lactanus/Lactanius wrote:
For when God forbids us to kill, He not only prohibits us from open violence, which is not even allowed by the public laws, but He warns us against the commission of those things which are esteemed lawful among men. Thus it will be neither lawful for a just man to engage in warfare (Lactanus. Divine Institutes, Book VI (Of True Wisdom and Religion), Chapter 20).
Or why should he carry on war, and mix himself with the passions of others, when his mind is engaged in perpetual peace with men? (Lactanus. Divine Institutes, Book V (Of True Wisdom and Religion), Chapter 18).
Christianity Today has recognized that early Christians were against military service,
The ancient church understood that war has been around as long as human beings and sin have coexisted. It is a consistent tenet throughout the Christian tradition that war is the result of sin. The responses to war, however, have followed two basic trains of thought: pacifism, and the idea that certain wars can be just.
Pacifism is characteristic of the early centuries of Christianity in someone like the North African apologist Tertullian (160-220 A.D.), who regularly warned Christians to distance themselves from pagan culture. He wrote:
"How will he serve in the army even during peacetime without the sword that Jesus Christ has taken away? Even if soldiers came to John and got advice on how they ought to act, even if the centurion became a believer, the Lord by taking away Peter's sword, disarmed every soldier thereafter. We are not allowed to wear any uniform that symbolizes a sinful act" (On Idolatry 19.3).
The third-century Roman Presbyter Hippolytus wrote The Apostolic Tradition, Canon 16, (ca. 215 A.D.) which opposed serving in the military as a matter of church discipline:
"A soldier in the lower ranks shall kill no one. If ordered to do so, he shall not obey, and he shall not take an oath. If he does not want to comply with this directive, let him be dismissed [from the church]."
(Elowsky, Joel. Ancient Christian Commentary on Current Events: What Is War Good For? Christianity Today, posted October 28, 2003).
Now, I should add that is doubtful that most of those quoted in the article were true Christians themselves. Yet, it is clear that they understood that John (the Baptist) and the Apostles were against war.
Here are more of Tertullian's writing:
But now inquiry is made about this point, whether a believer may turn himself unto military service, and whether the military may be admitted unto the faith, even the rank and file, or each inferior grade, to whom there is no necessity for taking part in sacrifices or capital punishments. There is no agreement between the divine and the human sacrament, the standard of Christ and the standard of the devil, the camp of light and the camp of darkness. One soul cannot be due to two masters--God and Caesar. And yet Moses carried a rod, and Aaron wore a buckle, and John (Baptist) is girt with leather and Joshua the son of Nun leads a line of march; and the People warred: if it pleases you to sport with the subject. But how will a Christian man war, nay, how will he serve even in peace, without a sword, which the Lord has taken away? (Tertullian. On Idolatry, Chapter 19. Translated by S. Thelwall. Excerpted from Ante-Nicene Fathers, Volume 3. Edited by Alexander Roberts and James Donaldson. American Edition, 1885. Online Edition Copyright © 2004 by K. Knight).
The Roman Catholic theologian Hippolytus, early third century, noted this:
That it is not meet for Christians to bear arms (Hippolytus. Heads of the Canons of Abulides or Hippolytus, Which Are Used by the Ethiopian Christians. Excerpted from Ante-Nicene Fathers, Volume 5. Edited by Alexander Roberts & James Donaldson. American Edition, 1886. Online Edition Copyright © 2005 by K. Knight).
Theological historian Bart Ehrman noted this as a difference between the Jews and the early Christians:
Further indications of a separation of Christians from Jews came soon thereafter in the Jewish uprising against the Romans in Palestine, leading to a three-year war and the ultimate destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple in the year 70 C.E. Old traditions indicate that the Christian Jews refused to participate in the struggle (Ehrman B. From Jesus to Constantine: A History of Early Christianity. The Teaching Company, Chantilly (VA), 2004, p. 33).
Furthermore, the historian Kenneth Scott Latourette noted that even late into the third century,
...perhaps most of the early Christians had conscientious scruples against military service (Latourette K.S. A History of Christianity, Volume 1, Beginnings to 1500. Harper, San Francisco, 1975, p. 89).
And while after some time, much of the empire soldiers professed Christ, this empire-wide acceptance of Christianity occurred with a "compromise with the world...a serious peril to the Gospel" (ibid, p.108).
A former Catholic priest reported:
Whereas up to the year 175 there was not a single Christian soldier, in 416, by an edict of Theodosius, only Christians were allowed to enlist (De Rosa, Peter. Vicars of Christ. Poolberg Press, Dublin, 2000, p. 156).
Yet, this is not an area that true Christians compromised on. The only ones who enlisted were those that ended up accepting the type of "Christianity" that nearly all the Greco-Roman Emperors from Constantine onwards endorsed
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The HEART of the issue is truly the issue of the HEART!
John 3:3;Mark 8:34-38;James 1:27
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WildB
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quote:
Originally posted by Betty Louise:
I wasn't complaing at all. I think it is neat that we posted at the same time.
Hubby is doing pretty good by the way. He has alot of pain but considering the type of surgery he had that is expected.
God bless you, WildB.
betty
"neat" lol your showing your age.
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That is all.....
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Betty Louise
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I wasn't complaing at all. I think it is neat that we posted at the same time.
Hubby is doing pretty good by the way. He has alot of pain but considering the type of surgery he had that is expected.
God bless you, WildB.
betty
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
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WildB
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sorry i stepped on your toes.
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That is all.....
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Betty Louise
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Wild B,
Looks like we posted at the same time. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
betty
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
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Betty Louise
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So, Barry, if your house if robbed do you call the police? If you come home to find your wife has been attacked do you call the police? If the police come and they kill the person that is attacking your wife are you going to get upset for them defending your wife?
We cannot be a person who does not believe in defending family and Country and yet still expect police to defend your family.
And if it is okay for the Police to defend us then it is no different for the Military to defend all of us.
betty
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
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Carol Swenson
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I agree that we need to show love to the world, not hate. But evil will take over if we don't resist it, after prayer and permission.
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Carol Swenson
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quote:
Originally posted by barrykind:
Sister Carol???
whats up with the "pedofile" pic???
![[1zhelp]](graemlins/1zhelp.gif)
Law enforcement. It isn't military, but it is part of the same question. There are people who need to be stopped from the evil they do to others.
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Caretaker
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The Word of God teaches love and justice.
At no time are the righteous soldiers referenced in the New Testament told to abandon their positions:
John the Baptist and soldiers
According to the New Testament, John the Baptist, coming in the spirit of Elijah, was the forerunner of Christ. John preached a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins. One day, during the short life of John the Baptist—short because Herod the tetrarch beheaded him (Matthew 14:1-12 and Mark 6:14-29)—some soldiers, likely Jews serving the government in Jerusalem, traveled out to the Jordan River to see him. While they were listening, he told a large crowd that they must bring forth fruit (character and actions) worthy of repentance, not just get wet at their baptism (Luke 3:8). After different classes of people ask what fruit they must produce, the soldiers ask a pertinent question about their own careers.
14 Then some soldiers asked him, "And what should we do?" He replied, "Don't extort money and don't accuse people falsely—be content with your pay." (Luke 3:14)
It seems, then, that the soldiers were deeper than curiosity seekers. They asked about repentance. It is important to note what John says and does not say. He tells them to follow after justice. Apparently, it was common knowledge that soldiers generally used their power and authority to intimidate people. He also tells them to be content with their wages; logically, this implies that they may remain in the military as soldiers. That is what he said. But what he does not say is that they should quit the army.
The silence is significant. John never denounced them as soldiers, exactly at the moment when the fiery preacher could have done so. One of the requirements of their repentance did not involve walking away from their career. They could repent of their sins and belong to the military. They did not have to repent for carrying weapons or belonging to the military. This also implies, historically, that they could use their weapons, if necessary.
http://www.answering-islam.org/Authors/Arlandson/pacifism3.htm
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A Servant of Christ,
Drew
1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..
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Caretaker
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Is it not being double-minded for a Christian to use violence to protect themselves or others?
Does it not show a lack of faith to use bug spray to kill a wasp nest, and to not rely solely upon God to protect?
Is it not double-minded for a Believer to destroy a rabid dog which enters the yard?
Why does one put on a coat to go outside in the winter?
Won't God provide warmth and if we had faith to say to the mountain. Isn't it being double minded to put on a coat in the blizzard?
Why do we go to a doctor, for is it not being double minded to not place our faith and trust solely in God?
Is it not double-minded to go to a dentist, and not rely on God?
Why do we need a house, or an apartment? Won't God provide?
Why do we need a job, or to earn money, when God will meet all of your needs according to His riches in glory?
Isn't it being double-minded to have a job, to earn a wage, and not to just trust in God to provide?
Terribly double-minded to have insurance for it shows that you don't trust God to take care of you.
A gun is no different than any other tool. The tire-iron can be used to jack-up my car to change a flat,(course its double-minded and fleshly to have a car when God will provide and if we just had faith to say to the mountain), or the tire iron can be an offensive weapon in a mugging.
A sharp knife can carve our meat, or an opponent. Is it not double-minded to own a knife?
Course Jesus must not have meant it when He told His disciples to sell their coats to posses a sword.
Your adherence to pacifism would have enabled the predator to have murdered hundreds in Colorado.
Instead a tool was employed for righteousness and the believers were protected through God's provision:
http://www.newswithviews.com/baldwin/baldwin419.htm
By Pastor Chuck Baldwin
December 14, 2007
NewsWithViews.com
"He that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one." (Luke 22:36 KJV)
Most of us are aware that the heroic actions of a brave woman at the New Life Church in Colorado Springs, Colorado a few days ago saved the lives of perhaps scores, or even hundreds, of people. However, her bravery would not have counted for much had she not been armed.
On that fateful December Sunday, a man by the name of Matthew Murray entered the church armed to the teeth. According to press reports, he was armed with a semi-automatic rifle, two handguns, some smoke grenades, and more than 1,000 rounds of ammunition.
By the time Murray arrived in the Colorado Springs church, he had already killed four people: two at a missionary training center miles away, and two in the church parking lot. He had wounded several others. No one realized it at the time, but the man was a serial killer in the midst of a rampage. He doubtless planned to kill as many people as he could, as there were thousands of people inside the church. Had there not been an armed citizen in the church house, the death toll would have been massive.
According to church spokesmen, the congregation has over a dozen members who volunteered to serve as security personnel for the church. Jeanne Assam was one of those volunteers.
A former police officer, Assam said, "I saw him [Murray] coming through the doors, and I took cover, and I waited for him to get closer. I came out of cover, I identified myself and engaged him and took him down." Murray died in the exchange. Although Assam shot him several times with her 9mm pistol, the coroner's office said that Murray actually succumbed to a self-inflicted gunshot wound. After being incapacitated by Assam's gunfire, Murray apparently turned one of his weapons on himself.
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A Servant of Christ,
Drew
1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..
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Caretaker
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Jesus' response to a Roman Centurion, the platoon leader over 100 soldiers:
Matthew 8:5-13
8:5 And when Jesus was entered into Capernaum,
there came unto him a centurion, beseeching him,
8:6 And saying,
Lord, my servant lieth at home sick of the palsy, grievously tormented.
8:7 And Jesus saith unto him, I will come and heal him.
8:8 The centurion answered and said,
Lord, I am not worthy that thou shouldest come under my roof:
but speak the word only, and my servant shall be healed.
8:9 For I am a man under authority, having soldiers under me:
and I say to this man, Go, and he goeth;
and to another, Come, and he cometh;
and to my servant, Do this, and he doeth it.
8:10 When Jesus heard it, he marvelled, and said to them that followed,
Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel.
8:11 And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west,
and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.
8:12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out
into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
8:13 And Jesus said unto the centurion,
Go thy way; and as thou hast believed, so be it done unto thee.
And his servant was healed in the selfsame hour.
Cornelius was a Centurion and was the first Gentile filled with the Holy Ghost:
Acts 10:
1: There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of the band called the Italian band,
2: A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God always.
44: While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
45: And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
46: For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
47: Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
48: And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.
Neither Centurion in the Roman Army was told to repent of their occupatio which the pacifist declares "evil". The faith of these army warriors was confirmed directly from God.
JESUS WAS NOT A PACIFIST
People who claim that Jesus was a pacifist are ignoring more than half the Bible. Jesus was not a prophet with His own agenda; Jesus was and is God. He is the God of the Old Testament. Jesus is Jehovah, the God who commanded the Israelites to go to war. David said, "Blessed be the LORD my Rock, Who trains my hands for war, And my fingers for battle (Psalm 144:1)." We know that Jesus was not a pacifist (someone who denounces all forms of violence for any reason) because the Bible says that Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forevermore (Hebrews 13:8). He did not change His mind suddenly in the New Testament, so any teachings must be taken in that context.
Some pacifists have objected to this reasoning by proposing the heretical idea that God's dealings with the ancient Israelites took into consideration their "uncivilized" nature. Not only does this ignore the simple fact that the ancients were just as civilized as we are today, it forces us to conclude that our holy God lowers His standards when we can't meet them. This would negate the need for a Saviour and therefore must be rejected as heresy.
We have a record of Jesus meeting a Roman centurion--an army officer who most likely achieved his rank because he was skilled at battle. After talking with this soldier for a few minutes, Jesus did not tell him to put down his sword, nor did he tell him to retire from the military. Instead, he praised the man's faith, saying that he had more faith than anyone He had met (Matthew 8:5-13).
In Exodus 22:2, we read, "If the thief is found breaking in, and he is struck so that he dies, there shall be no guilt for his bloodshed." Rashi, a famous Jewish commentator states,
"He has no blood. [This signifies that] this is not [considered] murder. It is as though he [the thief] is [considered] dead from the start. Here the Torah teaches you: If someone comes to kill you, kill him first. And this one [the thief] has come to kill you, because he knows that a person will not hold himself back and remain silent when he sees people taking his money. Therefore, he [the thief] has come with the acknowledgement that if the owner of the property were to stand up against him, he [thief] would kill him [the owner]. - [From Talmud Sanhedrin. 72a]".3
There are also commands to defend the weak and assist those who are attacked. Psalm 82:3-4 says, "Defend the poor and fatherless: do justice to the afflicted and needy. Deliver the poor and needy: rid them out of the hand of the wicked." It is hard to come up with a pacifist interpretation of this injunction. According to a Jewish translation, Leviticus 19:16, reads, "You shall not stand by [the shedding of] your fellow's blood. I am the Lord." Shlomo Yaffe writes,
We cannot exempt ourselves of this obligation – even though in this country we have a wonderful and dedicated corps of law enforcement officers and other emergency personnel. We should respect them and support them in every way possible, as they have devoted their lives to the rescue of their fellows –but our obligation to our fellow remains: if we see someone in trouble we cannot absolve ourselves of our obligation by the fact that "professionals" exist somewhere.
Romans 13:
1: Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
2: Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.
3: For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:
4: For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.
No one can argue that America's peace with Germany and Japan are not the direct result of America defeating them in war. Nor can anyone argue that Hitler would not have continued his quest if no one had stood up to him. If good people simply looked the other way when evil people did terrible things, this world would be run by people like Hitler, Stalin and bin Laden.
Did not Jesus teach nonviolence? Turn other cheek; if your
cloak is demanded give your shirt too?
1) He Himself at His trial before Annas was struck in the face
by a guard. Instead of turning the other cheek, He rebuked them
all (John 18:23): "If I have spoken wrongly, testify to the
wrong; but if I have spoken rightly, why do you strike me?"
2) St. Thomas is right in quoting the interpretation given by
St. Augustine to the nonviolent texts (Summa II.II.40.1.ad 2):
"These precepts are always to be observed in attitude of mind,
namely, that a man should always be prepared not to
resist....but at times one must act otherwise because of the
common good..... Hence Augustine says...nothing is more unhappy
than the happiness of sinners, in that impunity is nourished,
and an evil will is strengthened" (Augustine, "On the Sermon on
the Mount" 1.19; Epistle 138.2.14).
3) While a private person should take the nonviolent attitude,
and at suitable times act on it as well, a state is in a
different case. It has no right to abandon its obligation to
defend its citizens, using moral means of course.
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A Servant of Christ,
Drew
1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..
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barrykind
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Sister Carol???
whats up with the "pedofile" pic???
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The HEART of the issue is truly the issue of the HEART!
John 3:3;Mark 8:34-38;James 1:27
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Eduardo Grequi
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Jesus said strive to live in peace if you can, however, Jesus also know that there would be evil rulers who will lead the masses in the name of religion to gain power. Giddeon was commanded by God to ready a fighting force to do away the enemy. Anyone who would tell me that they would run away from a righteous cause to avoid their own bodily harm or death is no more different than Jonah, God will immediately judge you. May He have mercy on your soul. Some wars will be fought. The bible says to try to live with all men in peace, but do not let the law of God become a lesser affect. I spent 21 years in the military and saw stuff that would churn your stomach. Imagine if you will if we did not stop the holocaust going on in the orient and europe, how much different the world would be. And remember the battle of all battle and Jesus will be the commander in chief and soldier at arms for this battle against the axis of evil.
(Jdg 7:1) Then Jerubbaal, who is Gideon, and all the people that were with him, rose up early, and pitched beside the well of Harod: so that the host of the Midianites were on the north side of them, by the hill of Moreh, in the valley.
(Jdg 7:2) And the LORD said unto Gideon, The people that are with thee are too many for me to give the Midianites into their hands, lest Israel vaunt themselves against me, saying, Mine own hand hath saved me.
(Jdg 7:3) Now therefore go to, proclaim in the ears of the people, saying, Whosoever is fearful and afraid, let him return and depart early from mount Gilead. And there returned of the people twenty and two thousand; and there remained ten thousand.
(Jdg 7:4) And the LORD said unto Gideon, The people are yet too many; bring them down unto the water, and I will try them for thee there: and it shall be, that of whom I say unto thee, This shall go with thee, the same shall go with thee; and of whomsoever I say unto thee, This shall not go with thee, the same shall not go.
(Jdg 7:5) So he brought down the people unto the water: and the LORD said unto Gideon, Every one that lappeth of the water with his tongue, as a dog lappeth, him shalt thou set by himself; likewise every one that boweth down upon his knees to drink.
(Jdg 7:6) And the number of them that lapped, putting their hand to their mouth, were three hundred men: but all the rest of the people bowed down upon their knees to drink water.
(Jdg 7:7) And the LORD said unto Gideon, By the three hundred men that lapped will I save you, and deliver the Midianites into thine hand: and let all the other people go every man unto his place.
(Jdg 7:8) So the people took victuals in their hand, and their trumpets: and he sent all the rest of Israel every man unto his tent, and retained those three hundred men: and the host of Midian was beneath him in the valley.
(Jdg 7:9) And it came to pass the same night, that the LORD said unto him, Arise, get thee down unto the host; for I have delivered it into thine hand.
(Jdg 7:10) But if thou fear to go down, go thou with Phurah thy servant down to the host:
(Jdg 7:11) And thou shalt hear what they say; and afterward shall thine hands be strengthened to go down unto the host. Then went he down with Phurah his servant unto the outside of the armed men that were in the host.
(Jdg 7:12) And the Midianites and the Amalekites and all the children of the east lay along in the valley like grasshoppers for multitude; and their camels were without number, as the sand by the sea side for multitude.
(Jdg 7:13) And when Gideon was come, behold, there was a man that told a dream unto his fellow, and said, Behold, I dreamed a dream, and, lo, a cake of barley bread tumbled into the host of Midian, and came unto a tent, and smote it that it fell, and overturned it, that the tent lay along.
(Jdg 7:14) And his fellow answered and said, This is nothing else save the sword of Gideon the son of Joash, a man of Israel: for into his hand hath God delivered Midian, and all the host.
(Jdg 7:15) And it was so, when Gideon heard the telling of the dream, and the interpretation thereof, that he worshipped, and returned into the host of Israel, and said, Arise; for the LORD hath delivered into your hand the host of Midian.
(Jdg 7:16) And he divided the three hundred men into three companies, and he put a trumpet in every man's hand, with empty pitchers, and lamps within the pitchers.
(Jdg 7:17) And he said unto them, Look on me, and do likewise: and, behold, when I come to the outside of the camp, it shall be that, as I do, so shall ye do.
(Jdg 7:18) When I blow with a trumpet, I and all that are with me, then blow ye the trumpets also on every side of all the camp, and say, The sword of the LORD, and of Gideon.
(Jdg 7:19) So Gideon, and the hundred men that were with him, came unto the outside of the camp in the beginning of the middle watch; and they had but newly set the watch: and they blew the trumpets, and brake the pitchers that were in their hands.
(Jdg 7:20) And the three companies blew the trumpets, and brake the pitchers, and held the lamps in their left hands, and the trumpets in their right hands to blow withal: and they cried, The sword of the LORD, and of Gideon.
(Jdg 7:21) And they stood every man in his place round about the camp: and all the host ran, and cried, and fled.
(Jdg 7:22) And the three hundred blew the trumpets, and the LORD set every man's sword against his fellow, even throughout all the host: and the host fled to Bethshittah in Zererath, and to the border of Abelmeholah, unto Tabbath.
(Jdg 7:23) And the men of Israel gathered themselves together out of Naphtali, and out of Asher, and out of all Manasseh, and pursued after the Midianites.
(Jdg 7:24) And Gideon sent messengers throughout all mount Ephraim, saying, Come down against the Midianites, and take before them the waters unto Bethbarah and Jordan. Then all the men of Ephraim gathered themselves together, and took the waters unto Bethbarah and Jordan.
(Jdg 7:25) And they took two princes of the Midianites, Oreb and Zeeb; and they slew Oreb upon the rock Oreb, and Zeeb they slew at the winepress of Zeeb, and pursued Midian, and brought the heads of Oreb and Zeeb to Gideon on the other side Jordan.
(Heb 12:14) Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:
Heb 12:14 Follow peace with all men,.... That are in a natural and domestic relation to one another, being of the same family; and that are in a civil and political one, being of the same nation, city, or society; and that are in a spiritual one, being members of the same church; or, if not, yet being saints, and though in some things different in judgment; yea, even peace is to be followed with enemies, as much as in us lies: and perhaps by "all men", the Gentiles may be more especially designed, whose peace the Hebrews thought they were not to seek, Deu_23:6 mistaking the sense of the text, by applying it to the Gentiles in general: to "follow peace", signifies an eager pursuit after it, in the use of proper means; exerting the utmost of a man's power to attain it, in all things possible: many things serve to enforce this upon the saints; this is most agreeable to all the three divine Persons; to God, who is the God of peace; to Christ, the Prince of peace; and to the Spirit, one of whose fruits is peace; and to the characters of the saints, who are sons of peace, and who are called to peace, and who make a profession of the Gospel of peace; and to the privileges they enjoy, being interested in the covenant of peace, partaking of spiritual peace now, and being entitled to eternal peace hereafter: and this agrees with the sayings and counsels of the ancient Jews. It was a saying of Hillell (r), who lived about the times of Christ;
"be thou one of the disciples of Aaron, who loved peace, ורודף שלום, "and followed peace".''
This is said of Aaron in the Talmud (s), that
"he loved peace, and followed peace, and made peace between a man and his neighbour, as is said, Mal_2:6.''
They recommend peace on many accounts, and say, great is peace, and among the rest, because it is one of the names of God (t):
and holiness: this being added to peace, shows that peace is no further to be followed than is consistent with holiness; and holiness here does not design any particular branch of holiness, as chastity of the body and mind, but the whole of holiness, inward and outward; and intends true holiness, in opposition to ceremonial holiness, which the Hebrews were fond of, and pursued after: it means even perfect holiness; for though holiness is not perfect in this life, yet it will be in heaven; and there is a perfection of it in Christ; and it is to be followed after, by going to Christ for more grace, and exercising faith upon him, as our sanctification; and by eager desires that the Spirit of God would sanctify us more and more, and enable us, by his grace and strength, to walk in the way of holiness, till we get safe to heaven:
without which no man shall see the Lord; or "God", as the Vulgate Latin and Ethiopic versions read; that is, with the beatific vision in heaven: or the Lord Jesus Christ, "our Lord", as the Syriac version reads; even in this life, so as to have communion with him; and hereafter, so as to behold his glory, both intellectually and corporeally: to such a sight holiness is necessary; for God is holy, and Christ is holy, and so is heaven, and so are the angels, and the souls of men in it.
(r) Pirke Abot, c. 1. sect. 12. (s) T. Bab. Sanhedrin, fol. 6. 2. & Gloss. in T. Bab. Yoma, fol. 71. 2. (t) Vajikra Rabba, sect. 9. fol. 153. 1, 2.
Take from Gill Commentary
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KnowHim
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Many people make the mistake of reading what the Bible says in Exodus 20:13, “You shall not kill,” and then seeking to apply this command to war. However, the Hebrew word literally means “the intentional, premeditated killing of another person with malice; murder.” God often ordered the Israelites to go to war with other nations (1 Samuel 15:3; Joshua 4:13). God ordered the death penalty for numerous crimes (Exodus 21:12, 15; 22:19; Leviticus 20:11). So, God is not against killing in all circumstances, but only murder. War is never a good thing, but sometimes it is a necessary thing. In a world filled with sinful people (Romans 3:10-18), war is inevitable. Sometimes the only way to keep sinful people from doing great harm to the innocent is by going to war.
In the Old Testament, God ordered the Israelites to “take vengeance on the Midianites for the Israelites” (Numbers 31:2). Deuteronomy 20:16-17 declares, “However, in the cities of the nations the LORD your God is giving you as an inheritance, do not leave alive anything that breathes. Completely destroy them…as the LORD your God has commanded you.” Also, 1 Samuel 15:18 says, “Go and completely destroy those wicked people, the Amalekites; make war on them until you have wiped them out.” Obviously God is not against all war. Jesus is always in perfect agreement with the Father (John 10:30), so we cannot argue that war was only God’s will in the Old Testament. God does not change (Malachi 3:6; James 1:17).
Jesus’ second coming will be exceedingly violent. Revelation 19:11-21 describes the ultimate war with Christ, the conquering commander who judges and makes war “with justice” (v. 11). It’s going to be bloody (v. 13) and gory. The birds will eat the flesh of all those who oppose Him (v. 17-18). He has no compassion upon His enemies, whom He will conquer completely and consign to a “fiery lake of burning sulfur” (v. 20).
It is an error to say that God never supports a war. Jesus is not a pacifist. In a world filled with evil people, sometimes war is necessary to prevent even greater evil. If Hitler had not been defeated by World War II, how many more millions would have been killed? If the American Civil War had not been fought, how much longer would African-Americans have had to suffer as slaves?
War is a terrible thing. Some wars are more “just” than others, but war is always the result of sin (Romans 3:10-18). At the same time, Ecclesiastes 3:8 declares, “There is…a time to love and a time to hate, a time for war and a time for peace.” In a world filled with sin, hatred, and evil (Romans 3:10-18), war is inevitable. Christians should not desire war, but neither are Christians to oppose the government God has placed in authority over them (Romans 13:1-4; 1 Peter 2:17). The most important thing we can be doing in a time of war is to be praying for godly wisdom for our leaders, praying for the safety of our military, praying for quick resolution to conflicts, and praying for a minimum of casualties among civilians on both sides (Philippians 4:6-7).
http://www.gotquestions.org/war-Bible.html
No we are not suppose to standby while people just do what they want. It is time to take a stand and stop trying to make excuses for not doing so.
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WildB
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burr barry Jesus never told us 2 bend over and turn our other 2 cheeks for slapping. But by reading your post I can see where that would be a natural position for u.
Luke 22:36 Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.
Romans 13:4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.
Nehemiah, Chapter 4, 017: They which builded on the wall, and they that bare burdens, with those that laded, every one with one of his hands wrought in the work, and with the other hand held a weapon.
John 15:13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.
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That is all.....
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barrykind
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Spiritual Warefare
2 Corinthians 10
1Now I Paul myself beseech you by the meekness and gentleness of Christ, who in presence am base among you, but being absent am bold toward you:
2But I beseech you, that I may not be bold when I am present with that confidence, wherewith I think to be bold against some, which think of us as if we walked according to the flesh.
3For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh:
4(For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;)
5Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;
48Now he that betrayed him gave them a sign, saying, Whomsoever I shall kiss, that same is he: hold him fast.
49And forthwith he came to Jesus, and said, Hail, master; and kissed him.
50And Jesus said unto him, Friend, wherefore art thou come? Then came they, and laid hands on Jesus and took him.
51And, behold, one of them which were with Jesus stretched out his hand, and drew his sword, and struck a servant of the high priest's, and smote off his ear.
52Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.
53Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?
John 18
33Then Pilate entered into the judgment hall again, and called Jesus, and said unto him, Art thou the King of the Jews?
34Jesus answered him, Sayest thou this thing of thyself, or did others tell it thee of me?
35Pilate answered, Am I a Jew? Thine own nation and the chief priests have delivered thee unto me: what hast thou done?
36Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.
37Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.
2 Cor 10:
3For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh:
4(For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;)
Eph 6:
10Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might.
11Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.
12For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
13Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.
14Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness;
15And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace;
16Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.
17And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:
18Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;
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The HEART of the issue is truly the issue of the HEART!
John 3:3;Mark 8:34-38;James 1:27
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Carol Swenson
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 Lock Them Up!
Was Jesus a pacifist?
According to Webster’s dictionary, a pacifist is someone who is opposed to violence, especially war, for any purpose, often accompanied by the refusal to bear arms by reason of conscience or religious conviction.
While Jesus is the “prince of peace” (Isaiah 9:6), He was not, and is not, a pacifist. Revelation 19:15, speaking of Jesus, declares, "Out of His mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. He will rule them with an iron scepter. He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty." Ecclesiastes 3:1, 3, & 8 say, “There is a time for everything and a season for every activity under the heaven…a time to kill and a time to heal, a time to tear down and a time to build…a time to love and a time to hate, a time for war and a time for peace.” Daniel 9:26 says that “war will continue until the end, and desolations have been decreed.” Matthew 24:6-8 says, “You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. All these are the beginning of birth pains.”
Jesus Himself said, “Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to turn ‘a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law---a man’s enemies will be the members of his own household’” (Matthew 10:34-36). “From the days of John the Baptist until now, the kingdom of heaven has been forcefully advancing, and forceful men lay hold of it” (Matthew 11:12).
We are commanded to hate what is evil and cling to what is good (Romans 12:9). In doing so we must take a stand against what is evil in this world and pursue righteousness (2 Timothy 2:22). Jesus did this and, in so doing, spoke openly against the religious and political rulers of His time because they were not seeking a righteousness from God, but rather of their own making (Luke 20:1-2, Romans 9:31-33). Zeal for God’s righteousness consumed Jesus, and He was not afraid to stand up against those who opposed and dishonored His Father (John 2:15-17, see also Numbers 25:11). “Those who hate Him He will repay to their face by destruction; He will not be slow to repay to their face those who hate Him” (Deuteronomy 7:10). “While people are saying, ‘Peace and safety,’ destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape” (1 Thessalonians 5:3).
The Old Testament is full of examples of how God used his people in war to bring judgment upon nations whose sin had reached its full measure (only a few examples: Genesis 15:16, Numbers 21:3, 31:1-7, 32:20-21, Deuteronomy 7:1-2, Joshua 6:20-21, 8:1-8, 10:29-32, 11:7-20). In raising the moral consciousness of the world, God must take the people as He finds them and introduce principles of righteousness within the moral framework with which the people can identify. We can be assured though, that it is always with justice that God judges and makes war (Revelation 19:11). “For we know Him who said, ‘It is mine to avenge; I will repay,’ and again, ‘The Lord will judge his people.’ It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God” (Hebrews 10:30-31). What we can learn from these and other Biblical examples is that we are only to wage war when it is the will of God and not at our own discretion (John 18:11, Numbers 14:41-45). It is God’s choice as to how and when He brings judgment of sin upon this world and its inhabitants, to display His holiness. We are simply called to follow Him (Matthew 16:24-25).
All of this may sound contradictory to the teachings of Jesus, God Himself, in which He instructs us to “love your neighbor as yourself” (Matthew 19:19), turn the other cheek (Matthew 5:39), as well as the command, “you shall not murder” (Exodus 20:13). After all, we are told that God is love (1 John 4:16) and “Blessed are the peacemakers” (Matthew 5:9). The Bible also says in 2 Corinthians 10:4, “For though we live in the world, we do not wage war as the world does. The weapons we fight with are not weapons of the world. On the contrary, they have divine powers to demolish strongholds.“ While all this is indeed true, it helps in examining these seemingly contradictory concepts from an eternal perspective, that we may gain a more complete understanding for Jesus’ purpose in coming to this earth.
At the beginning of human history, God commanded mankind to rule over the earth (Genesis 1:26-31; Hebrews 2:6-8). When man disobeyed God, sin entered the world (Genesis 2:17, 3:6-7). By this one action, man sold his right to rule this world to Satan and at the same time became captive to sin himself (John 8:34, 12:31; Romans 6:6; Ephesians 2:2, 6:12). As a result, sinful men live in a world full of corruption, each person doing what is right in his own eyes, the whole time being led astray by their own evil desires (Psalm 8:6, 51:5; Proverbs 14:12; Genesis 3:17; Romans 8:20, James 1:14-15). It isn’t hard to see that the whole world lies in Satan’s power (1 John 5:19). Even Jesus did not dispute with him over the fact that he ruled the kingdoms of the world (Matthew 4:8-10). Therefore, there can be no lasting peace or restoration of the land until Jesus returns to redeem the land and man (Galatians 4:4-5).
Jesus came in the likeness of mankind, while still retaining his full authority as God, in order that He might redeem men from their sentence of death, and re-establish, for the believer, man’s authority to rule (Philippians 2:6-8, 1 Corinthians 15:21-22, 54-57, Revelation 20:6). When Jesus died on the cross, He purchased back the land and men’s souls from the dominion of Satan through the shedding of His own blood, the purchase price for redemption of man’s sin (Hebrews 9:22, Acts 20:28, 1 Peter 1:18-19, 1 Corinthians 6:20). A day is coming, after severe judgment upon the earth, when Jesus will break the seal of the deed and end Satan’s rule (Revelation 5:1-10, 6-18, 19:11-21). At the end of Jesus’ 1,000 year reign upon this earth, Satan will be set free for a short time and war once again will be waged (Revelation 20:7-10). It is only at the end of that war, once the murderer of man, Satan, is destroyed by Jesus and His servants’ blood is finally avenged, that wars will cease and peace will once again be established in the new heaven and new earth (John 8:44, Deuteronomy 32:43, Daniel 7:13-14, 2 Peter 3:3-13, Revelation 21:1-4). Until that time we are called to fight the good fight and keep the faith (2 Timothy 4:7).
http://www.gotquestions.org/Jesus-pacifist.html
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Betty Louise
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What does the Bible say about a Christian serving in the military?
Christian military
Question: "What does the Bible say about a Christian serving in the military?"
Answer: The Bible contains plenty of information about serving in the military. While many of the Bible’s references to the military are only analogies, several verses directly relate to this question. The Bible does not specifically state whether or not someone should serve in the military. At the same time, Christians can rest assured that being a soldier is highly respected throughout the Scriptures and know that such service is consistent with a biblical worldview.
The first example of military service is found in the Old Testament (Genesis 14), when Abraham's nephew Lot was kidnapped by Chedorlaomer, king of Elam, and his allies. Abraham rallied to Lot's aid by gathering 318 trained men of his household and defeating the Elamites. Here we see armed forces engaged in a noble task—rescuing and protecting the innocent.
Late in its history, the nation of Israel developed a standing army. The sense that God was the Divine Warrior and would protect His people regardless of their military strength may have been a reason why Israel was slow to develop an army. The development of a regular standing army in Israel came only after a strong, centralized political system had been developed by Saul, David, and Solomon. Saul was the first to form a permanent army (1 Samuel 13:2; 24:2; 26:2).
What Saul began, David continued. He increased the army, brought in hired troops from other regions who were loyal to him alone (2 Samuel 15:19-22) and turned over the direct leadership of his armies to a commander-in-chief, Joab. Under David, Israel also became more aggressive in its offensive military policies, absorbing neighboring states like Ammon (2 Samuel 11:1; 1 Chronicles 20:1-3). David established a system of rotating troops with twelve groups of 24,000 men serving one month of the year (1 Chronicles 27). Although Solomon's reign was peaceful, he further expanded the army, adding chariots and horsemen (1 Kings 10:26). The standing army continued (though divided along with the kingdom after the death of Solomon) until 586 B.C., when Israel (Judah) ceased to exist as a political entity.
In the New Testament, Jesus marveled when a Roman centurion (an officer in charge of one hundred soldiers) approached Him. The centurion’s response to Jesus indicated his clear understanding of authority, as well as his faith in Jesus (Matthew 8:5-13). Jesus did not denounce his career. Many centurions mentioned in the New Testament are praised as Christians, God-fearers, and men of good character (Matthew 8:5; 27:54; Mark 15:39-45; Luke 7:2; 23:47; Acts 10:1; 21:32; 28:16).
The places and the titles may have changed, but our armed forces should be just as valued as the centurions of the Bible. The position of soldier was highly respected. For example, Paul describes Epaphroditus, a fellow Christian, as a “fellow soldier” (Philippians 2:25). The Bible also uses military terms to describe being strong in the Lord by putting on the whole armor of God (Ephesians 6:10-20), including the tools of the soldier—helmet, shield, and sword.
Yes, the Bible does address serving in the military, directly and indirectly. The Christian men and women who serve their country with character, dignity, and honor can rest assured that the civic duty they perform is condoned and respected by our sovereign God. Those who honorably serve in the military deserve our respect and gratitude.
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
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Betty Louise
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WildB,
God bless you for your service.
betty
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
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WildB
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Betty I spent time in a VA hospital as a young man duty related.
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That is all.....
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Betty Louise
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So Christian men should have allowed Germany to over take the world? Did God not use Israel in battle? Even when God performed miracles for Israel, she still had to show up for battle. Never did God tell Israel's men to stay home and allow God to win the battle while the men hid in their homes afraid to stand up for their Country,
It is a shame for men to use the Bible as an excuse to refuse to fight for their Country.
As far as Germans there were Germans who did help America and her allies. Not every German killed the Jews. My husband was a Marine. He said they were told if there ordered by a higher rank to kill unarmed or innocent children they were in the right to refuse. DO not make the mistake to think that because you are in the Military that you are mindless. Military fight for this country's freedom. For now we have the freedom to worship as we please, if not for the men and women who have fought for your rights, you would not have that right. If you love your freedom then thank a Veteran. My husband is in the VA hospital tonight recovering from surgery this very night. Don't you dare talk to me about Christians and the military. While his illness is not military related. He earned the right to go to the VA hospital because he was not afraid to stand up for this country.
betty
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
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barrykind
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Betty states:
quote:
A real man is one who is willing to fight for their Country. True Heroes are not sports players, but Military Personal, Police Officers, and Fire Men.
It is a crock to hide behind the Bible when you are afraid to serve your Country. Men of God fought in the Bible in battle. In WWII, God used men of valor to save the Jewish people from Hitler. God could have killed Hitler but He choice to use Men and Women who were willing to lay aside their fears and fight for the Country.
There are many great Christian men who have served their Country. If you do not want to serve that is your choice but don't hide behind the Bible and just admit you did not want to serve.
betty
im not afraid to die Betty, i just think that a christian should not engage in military combat.
i dont think that it is a "real" man like you say just because you can kill someone. Or "fight" for their country..
Like i said, the principal that you apply to the USA, in WWII applies to the german folks too.
Were they real men because they served "germany" their country?
The ones serving in the German military who gassed Jews where they "real" men...they were'nt afraid to "serve" their country.
what about russian, china, iraq, iran...you cannot just base your logic on the USA Military.
France has Christian Churches, so should their "christian" men join and "be real men" and serve their country even if they were at war with us?
I dont think the bible teaches that...
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The HEART of the issue is truly the issue of the HEART!
John 3:3;Mark 8:34-38;James 1:27
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Betty Louise
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A real man is one who is willing to fight for their Country. True Heroes are not sports players, but Military Personal, Police Officers, and Fire Men.
It is a crock to hide behind the Bible when you are afraid to serve your Country. Men of God fought in the Bible in battle. In WWII, God used men of valor to save the Jewish people from Hitler. God could have killed Hitler but He choice to use Men and Women who were willing to lay aside their fears and fight for the Country.
There are many great Christian men who have served their Country. If you do not want to serve that is your choice but don't hide behind the Bible and just admit you did not want to serve.
betty
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
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barrykind
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Sister Betty states:
quote:
Some people are cowards. They want the freedom that the Military fights for but they are too scared to serve their Country.
Hubby served in the Marine Corp. My son signed up for the Navy but was sent home after three months because he was born with flat feet. They said it would cost $1000.00 to buy combat boots for him and because we were not at war, the Navy would not buy them, so they gave him a honorable discharge and sent him home. Jeff did not want to come home and begged to stay.
betty
Im not a coward for sure, could stand toe to toe with any man, not afraid; for the fear of man is a snare.
Sister Carol states:
quote:
Bethel and barry would not have the freedom to sit at a computer and speak against the Military and Law Enforcement if the Military and Law Enforcement had not purchased that freedom with their lives.
My take is a simple one!
First and foremost who is in charge of the kingdoms of this world?
SATAN
Matt 4:
3And when the tempter came to him, he said, If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread.
4But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.
5Then the devil taketh him up into the holy city, and setteth him on a pinnacle of the temple,
6And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone.
7Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.
8Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;
9And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.
10Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.
11Then the devil leaveth him, and, behold, angels came and ministered unto him.
Notice here something!
Satan told Yahushua that he was "in charge" of all the kingdoms of the "world" and being the prince of the power of the air, he is..
Yahushua did not rebuke satan and tell him "you liar" your not in charge of the kingdoms of the world....no Yahushua rebuked satan with scripture that pertains to the subject at hand.
Remember when Daniel prayed for an answer and it took some 21 days to get an answer?
Daniel 10
1In the third year of Cyrus king of Persia a thing was revealed unto Daniel, whose name was called Belteshazzar; and the thing was true, but the time appointed was long: and he understood the thing, and had understanding of the vision.
2In those days I Daniel was mourning three full weeks.
3I ate no pleasant bread, neither came flesh nor wine in my mouth, neither did I anoint myself at all, till three whole weeks were fulfilled.
4And in the four and twentieth day of the first month, as I was by the side of the great river, which is Hiddekel;
5Then I lifted up mine eyes, and looked, and behold a certain man clothed in linen, whose loins were girded with fine gold of Uphaz:
6His body also was like the beryl, and his face as the appearance of lightning, and his eyes as lamps of fire, and his arms and his feet like in colour to polished brass, and the voice of his words like the voice of a multitude.
7And I Daniel alone saw the vision: for the men that were with me saw not the vision; but a great quaking fell upon them, so that they fled to hide themselves.
8Therefore I was left alone, and saw this great vision, and there remained no strength in me: for my comeliness was turned in me into corruption, and I retained no strength.
9Yet heard I the voice of his words: and when I heard the voice of his words, then was I in a deep sleep on my face, and my face toward the ground.
10And, behold, an hand touched me, which set me upon my knees and upon the palms of my hands.
11And he said unto me, O Daniel, a man greatly beloved, understand the words that I speak unto thee, and stand upright: for unto thee am I now sent. And when he had spoken this word unto me, I stood trembling.
12Then said he unto me, Fear not, Daniel: for from the first day that thou didst set thine heart to understand, and to chasten thyself before thy God, thy words were heard, and I am come for thy words.
13But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia.
14Now I am come to make thee understand what shall befall thy people in the latter days: for yet the vision is for many days.
15And when he had spoken such words unto me, I set my face toward the ground, and I became dumb.
16And, behold, one like the similitude of the sons of men touched my lips: then I opened my mouth, and spake, and said unto him that stood before me, O my lord, by the vision my sorrows are turned upon me, and I have retained no strength.
17For how can the servant of this my lord talk with this my lord? for as for me, straightway there remained no strength in me, neither is there breath left in me.
18Then there came again and touched me one like the appearance of a man, and he strengthened me,
19And said, O man greatly beloved, fear not: peace be unto thee, be strong, yea, be strong. And when he had spoken unto me, I was strengthened, and said, Let my lord speak; for thou hast strengthened me.
20Then said he, Knowest thou wherefore I come unto thee? and now will I return to fight with the prince of Persia: and when I am gone forth, lo, the prince of Grecia shall come. [/B]
21But I will shew thee that which is noted in the scripture of truth: and there is none that holdeth with me in these things, but Michael your prince.
This and others tell me that satan is in "charge" of the "worlds" systems..
[YHWH is ultamately in control of all and has never lost control] but has allowed satan [YHWH's puppet] to be in charge of "worldly" kingdoms.,
So most all of the western "church" world bases what they see and judge and believe based on the USA.....Romans chapter 13, most here see as Civil government....Well if it is we are in trouble,
if you go 56 mph in a 55 zone....Rom 13 would mean you would reap damnamtion to yourself...
NO NO..Romans Chapter 13 is "church" government.
i have heard it said many times.......Obey the laws of the land..........Well in China at one time if you had a child and it was a girl, the second child if it was a girl...must abort!
Silly, un christian..
THIS IS NOT MY KINGDOM FOLKS>>>If it were i would FIGHT......Just like Peter in the garden, cutting off the ear....
NO!
I do not VOTE...Its not my kingdom...
WAKE UP CHURCH!!!!
i dont fight in this MILITARY.....Its NOT MU KINGDOM!!!!!
I fight, yes, but my weapons are NOT CARNAL\, but they are MIGHTY!!!!!
Its a spiritual war!
Wake up!
Im not a coward, in the flesh i would like i said stand toe to toe with any man!
Do you want to know what a MAN is.........a real man......Not one who is shot at in wartime,
One who turns the other cheek, one who lays his life down when HE has done nothing wrong...Thats a MAN..A Spiritual man..
Just like Yahushua HaMashiach!
NOT our kingdom folks,,,,, Ours is a heavenly kingdom, not of this world!!!!!!!
Which the King is Yahushua the HaMashiach [Messiah]
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The HEART of the issue is truly the issue of the HEART!
John 3:3;Mark 8:34-38;James 1:27
Posts: 3529 | From: Orange, Texas | Registered: Jun 2002
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Carol Swenson
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posted
Bethel and barry would not have the freedom to sit at a computer and speak against the Military and Law Enforcement if the Military and Law Enforcement had not purchased that freedom with their lives.
Posts: 6787 | From: Colorado | Registered: Dec 2007
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WildB
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posted
Burr Barry explain yourself to the baseball fans. ![[hyper]](graemlins/hyper.gif)
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That is all.....
Posts: 8775 | From: USA, MICHIGAN | Registered: Mar 2004
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WildB
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quote:
Originally posted by Betty Louise:
Some people are cowards. They want the freedom that the Military fights for but they are too scared to serve their Country.
Hubby served in the Marine Corp. My son signed up for the Navy but was sent home after three months because he was born with flat feet. They said it would cost $1000.00 to buy combat boots for him and because we were not at war, the Navy would not buy them, so they gave him a honorable discharge and sent him home. Jeff did not want to come home and begged to stay.
betty
Sorry 2 hear . I may have been able 2 help.
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That is all.....
Posts: 8775 | From: USA, MICHIGAN | Registered: Mar 2004
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Betty Louise
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Member # 7175
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posted
Some people are cowards. They want the freedom that the Military fights for but they are too scared to serve their Country.
Hubby served in the Marine Corp. My son signed up for the Navy but was sent home after three months because he was born with flat feet. They said it would cost $1000.00 to buy combat boots for him and because we were not at war, the Navy would not buy them, so they gave him a honorable discharge and sent him home. Jeff did not want to come home and begged to stay.
betty
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
Posts: 5051 | From: Houston, Texas | Registered: May 2008
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WildB
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posted
Hum? why would you post this?
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That is all.....
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barrykind
Advanced Member
Member # 35
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posted
Post one:
NON-RESISTANCE
by Harry Bethel
BethelMinistries.com
There are only a few New Testament commandments about which Jesus warned that whoever breaks them and teaches others to do so would be called least in the kingdom of heaven.
Our Lord said, "Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the Kingdom of heaven; but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven" (Mt. 5:19). What are these commandments? Some of them are clear commandments concerning non-resistance: "Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: but I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloak also. And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain....Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbor, and hate thine enemy. But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you....For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same? (Mt. 5:38-46)."
Many Christians, including church leaders, ignore these commands and Jesus' warning to not break them or teach others to break them. In these last days of apostasy we are like God's people spoken of in the book of Judges when "every man did that which was right in his own eyes." Many Dispensationalists rationalize and say that was the sermon on the mount and does not apply to us. Let God be true, but every man a liar (Rm. 3:4). The apostle Paul said that the armor of God (in this dispensation) is "truth," "righteousness, "the gospel of peace," "faith," salvation," and "the word of God" (Eph. 6:14-17). Inspired by the Spirit of Christ, Paul wrote, "For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh: for the weapons of our warfare are not carnal...." (2 Cor. 10:3-4). In other words Paul is saying that though we live in the world we do not wage war as the world does. "Recompense to no man evil for evil....avenge not yourselves, but overcome evil with good" (Rm. 12:17-21). And in Ephesians 6:12 he said, "For we wrestle not against flesh and blood."
Most Christians today do not accept the New Testament doctrine of non-resistance. Many refuse to see the clear teachings on this matter, or if they do see this truth they do not apply it to their lives. Under the Old Covenant God's people were not non-resistant to their enemies. But under the New Covenant we have a much higher calling than the Old Testament saints.
The term "non-resistance" comes from the words of Jesus when He commanded, "But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil" (Mt. 5:39). The context clearly shows that our Lord is speaking of not resisting an evil person. This in no way means that we are not to resist the temptations to sin, because, of course, all of Scripture is against that and can be summed up in the inspired words of James, "Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you" (James 4:7).
Scriptural non-resistance is not pacifism. Worldly pacifists primarily oppose war but will march, protest, picket, and obstruct the flow of pedestrian traffic, etc. A pacifist, while opposing war, would not necessarily abstain from going to court against a neighbor or defending himself or his property if attacked by a robber, for example.
In the Old Dispensation God at times commanded His people to kill their enemies. The calling of those saints certainly did not include non-resistance as it does under the New (and better) Covenant.
Jesus and His earthly ministry was the epitome of non-resistance, even submitting to suffering and death of the cross from which He could have delivered Himself by calling thousands of angels (Mt. 26:53). When the men came to arrest Jesus, Peter wielded his sword and cut off a man's ear. Jesus rebuked Peter and said, "They that take the sword shall perish with the sword" (Mt. 26:52). Later, Jesus told Pilate "My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight...." (Jn. 18:36).
Jesus' kingdom still is not of this world and it is only the disobedient servants of His that fight, whether in personal combat or dropping an atomic bomb on thousands of men, women, and children.
Jesus and the disciples were traveling and planning to stay in a village of the Samaritans, but they were not welcomed. James and John said, 'Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elias did? But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of" (Lk. 9:51-55). Many professing Christians today do not know what manner of spirit they are of.
Many Christians say, "Well, if a robber comes into my house and tries to take off my stuff, am I supposed to just stand there and let him?" The answer is, Only if you want to obey the commandments of Jesus. Christians will often dream up some hypothetical situation in order to try to make the command of God of none effect. In the book of Luke is recorded more of Jesus' words on the subject: "And him that taketh away thy cloak forbid not to take thy coat also. Give to every man that asketh of thee; and of him that taketh away thy goods ask them not again" (6:29b-30).
Jesus said, "Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal....for where your treasure is, there will your heart be also" (Mt. 6:19-21).
God is sovereign. Ask him to protect you and your family with His holy angels. No one can even touch you or your family or your possessions without God's knowledge and Him allowing it.
Some would say, But what about going to war to defend this country and democracy? The simple answer is that our citizenship is in heaven. We are (or should be) merely sojourners---pilgrims and strangers. Could you imagine yourself being like Jesus and at the same time leveling rifle sights between the eyes of a Russian soldier who is also a Christian brother and blowing his brains out? And concerning democracy, the political environment in which God places us is of little eternal consequence. As citizens of heaven it is not our calling to defend any particular political ideology. The end result of democracy, which is rule by the people, is the right for women to kill their unborn children, the right to publish and distribute pornographic literature, the right to broadcast sensuous and immoral acts on television, the right for homosexuals to teach in the public schools and parade down the middle of the street (with a government-issued permit) carrying placards and flaunting their sin, ad nauseam. (Please read article titled Democracy---A Scriptural Perspective.)
Peter, inspired by the Spirit of Christ, wrote, "For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow His steps...who, when He was reviled, reviled not again; when He suffered, He threatened not; but committed himself to Him that judgeth righteously" (1 Pet. 2:21-23).
Shortly before He was crucified, the command of Jesus to His disciples to get a sword had to be done to fulfill the Old Testament prophecy that Jesus was numbered with transgressors. Jesus was falsely accused of many things including Him being a transgressor. All Old Testament prophecy was, or will be, fulfilled to the very letter. In Isaiah 53:12 the prophecy was that Jesus would be numbered with transgressors (plural). Only two of the disciples had swords which was enough to make it more than one transgressor, that is, transgressors in the sight of the Jews who falsely accused Jesus of many things. There was no need to have all the disciples to obtain a sword. When the disciples told Jesus, "Lord, look, here are two swords" He told them that that was enough. (Two disciples with one sword each, made it enough to fulfill the plural nature of the prophecy.)
If Jesus was teaching something different concerning non-resistance He would have ordered all the disciples to obtain a sword. But this was not at all what Jesus was doing. In fact, shortly after that when the multitude came, Peter, who was one of the two that had a sword, cut off the right ear of the slave of the high priest. Jesus strongly rebuked Peter and said, "Stop! No more of this" (Luke 22:51). Also, see John 18:10. Then Jesus healed the slave's ear. Concerning the same account, in Matthew 26:52 it is recorded that Jesus said to Peter, "Put your sword back into its place; for all those who take up the sword shall perish by the sword" (NASB). Later, recorded in the Revelation, the message is also clear---"if anyone kills with the sword, with the sword he must be killed. Here is the perseverance and the faith of the saints" (13:10 NASB).
Will you be one of those who are called least in the kingdom of heaven? My hope is that just the opposite will be true. Jesus said whosoever shall do and teach these commandments, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. But the real test is, Do you love Jesus enough to obey Him in everything including the commandment to be non-resistant? Jesus said, "If ye love me, keep my commandments....He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings." (Jn. 14:15, 24).
http://www.bethelministries.com/NON_RESISTANCE.htm
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The HEART of the issue is truly the issue of the HEART!
John 3:3;Mark 8:34-38;James 1:27
Posts: 3529 | From: Orange, Texas | Registered: Jun 2002
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