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Author Topic: Hell and the Eternal Soul
Caretaker
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Hi Skeeter and welcome to the Christian BBS.

You would have to have read other posts by rstrats to understand that he would often take one verse which he felt was in opposition to a standard position, often out of context, and then he would disregard/disallow other proof texts, and just "chew on" that one verse as opposition to established doctrine.

The Lord gave the parable of the Rich man and Lazarus, as an example/contrast of the death of the righteous and the unrighteous, as well as the awareness of the soul/spirit after death.


We believe that at the moment of death, believers pass immediately into the
presence of Christ and remain there in joyful fellowship with Him until the
resurrection of the body at His second coming, after which they will be
forever with the Lord in glory. We also believe that at the moment of death,
the unsaved descend to Hell where they are kept under punishment until their
bodies are raised at the final judgment, after which they will suffer everlasting
conscious punishment separated from the presence of the Lord. Acts 17:31;
Matthew 25:31-46; II Corinthians 5:8; Philippians 1:23; Revelation 20:11-15;
John 14:1-3; 3:16; II Thessalonians 1:7-10; Revelation 21:1-5.

--------------------
A Servant of Christ,
Drew

1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..

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Carol Swenson
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quote:
People aren't allowed to have different views about stuff?
The people here have different views about a lot of things, but annihilationism is not accepted.

The Christian BBS is an inter-denominational ministry, however, we are a Christian ministry. While we encourage every believer to study scripture for him or herself and to question and seek answers, we must draw a line at some point as to what we find acceptable in the teachings on our board. We have outlined the basic beliefs of Christianity, the non-negotiable factors of our faith at http://www.christian-chats.net/statement.htm

We also all agreed to rules when we registered as members here that include not promoting certain beliefs: http://www.thechristianbbs.com/rules2.html

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skeeter
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I wasn't trying to teach it. I was just sharing what the guy said because I thought it was kind of fascinating. I had never heard this view before. That's why I was reading the thread to begin with because the title seemed relevant to what I had just watched.

People aren't allowed to have different views about stuff? I don't see it as a salvation issue. I mean, either way, there's punishment involved, so why would believing in one or the other make any difference to God's saving grace through Christ?

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Carol Swenson
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I have to go to work now. Let me just say that the unsaved will spend a conscious existence in everlasting torment for rejecting the gift of salvation through God's Son.

The administrator of this BBS will not allow anyone to teach annihilation. Please don't.

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skeeter
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Oh, but he was saying that there IS everlasting punishment in the lake of fire. He says the lake of fire is the consuming fire of God and it burns up all the unsaved on judgment day, thus resulting in everlasting punishment. It's everlasting, or eternal, because they are destroyed forever, not because they go on burning endlessly.
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Carol Swenson
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Matthew 10:32 (NASB)
Therefore everyone who confesses Me before men, I will also confess him before My Father who is in heaven.

When our hearts are filled with the Holy Spirit of Jesus Christ and His love, we want to confess Him...all the time!

skeeter, I know the doctrine you mentioned is compelling, but it is a deception. It is false. Satan is a liar and deceiver, and he would like for people to think there is no hell and to live in sin without fear. But our Lord Jesus Christ warned us of hell, and we must believe Him, not the liar.

We must not confuse "eternal life" with "endless life". Here is a definition from Unger's Bible Dictionary:

Eternal Life

This is a priceless treasure, the gift of God. It is not to be confused with mere endless existence, which all possess, saved as well as unsaved. Christ said, “I came that they might have life, and might have it abundantly” (John 10:10). This life is nothing less than “Christ in you, the hope of glory” (Colossians 1:27). It is likened to a birth from above (John 3:3; 1:13) and is dependent upon receiving Christ as Savior. “He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life” (1 John 5:12).

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skeeter
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I didn't fill out the profile. But yes, God made me one of His. Maybe he, like me, just didn't fill it out? Maybe?

Anyway, the reason I was reading this thread is because I saw a video where someone was preaching that we humans aren't eternal until Christ makes us so. He said the gift of God is eternal life. That being the case, he said how can the unsaved have eternal life even if they're spending it in a state of punishment? God would be giving everybody eternal life, just different qualities of life. It seemed to make sense to me, but I don't know for sure.

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Carol Swenson
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Hi skeeter, welcome to the Christian BBS.

For one thing, his profile does not say he has put his faith in Jesus Christ. Have you?

John 3:16 (NASB)
For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

The whole world has been bitten by sin, and “the wages of sin is death” (Rom. 6:23). God sent His Son to die, not only for Israel, but for a whole world. How is a person born from above? How is he or she saved from eternal perishing? By believing on Jesus Christ; by looking to Him in faith.

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skeeter
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I'm new here. This is the first thread I've read. I read through it 3 times and for the life of me, I can't figure out what rstrats has said to deserve the accusation of not being saved. Have I missed something?
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Carol Swenson
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quote:
The attitude/flavor of your "questions", your disregard of the responses and the overall impression generated gives one the perception that you are adversarial to the faith in Christ, the Word of God, and the basic tenants of the Church.

I agree Caretaker. He does not have the advantage of the Holy Spirit to illuminate scripture. If he is not willing to open his heart to our Lord Jesus Christ, who loves him and died for his sins, then we cannot expect him to open his heart to anything we say.

[Bible]
And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

For we do not preach ourselves but Christ Jesus as Lord, and ourselves as your bond-servants for Jesus' sake.

For God, who said, " Light shall shine out of darkness," is the One who has shone in our hearts to give the Light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ.


(2 Corinthians 4:3-6)

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WildB
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quote:
Originally posted by rstrats:
Caretaker,

re: “I notice that rstrats tends to latch onto one verse and chew at it like a bulldog, and ignores/disregards the rest of the Word.”

I simply asked a question about that “one verse”. Why are you getting all up in a tither?

re: “You can call the stove cold all day long rstrats, but if it is lit Y'all will get burned. Your understanding/unbelief will not effect the reality one iota. It just brings consequences for you.”

As far as I know, I have never spent a whole day calling a stove cold. And what pray tell does that have to do with my question about Ecclesiastes 12:7?

so much disrespect ! wow ! Stand Down mister!

--------------------
That is all.....

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Caretaker
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quote:
Originally posted by rstrats:
Caretaker,

re: “I believe that you might have referenced ‘dither’ or ‘tizzy’...”

I could have, but “tither” was the first word that came to mind which was probably due to my having just read an article that used the phrase; “in a tither”.


re: “Such as the Mark 16 question.”

There was nothing rhetorical about it. I seriously was, and still am, looking for an author and a quote.


re: “The thread on belief.”

Where in that thread did I “reject the Word of God and His eternal truth”?

quote:


I could have, but “tither” was the first word that came to mind which was probably due to my having just read an article that used the phrase; “in a tither”.


Might be helpful to not perpetuate an error, especially since it was certainly not applicable.


quote:


re: “Such as the Mark 16 question.”

There was nothing rhetorical about it. I seriously was, and still am, looking for an author and a quote.

re: “The thread on belief.”

Where in that thread did I “reject the Word of God and His eternal truth”?


The attitude/flavor of your "questions", your disregard of the responses and the overall impression generated gives one the perception that you are adversarial to the faith in Christ, the Word of God, and the basic tenants of the Church.

--------------------
A Servant of Christ,
Drew

1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..

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rstrats
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Caretaker,

re: “I believe that you might have referenced ‘dither’ or ‘tizzy’...”

I could have, but “tither” was the first word that came to mind which was probably due to my having just read an article that used the phrase; “in a tither”.


re: “Such as the Mark 16 question.”

There was nothing rhetorical about it. I seriously was, and still am, looking for an author and a quote.


re: “The thread on belief.”

Where in that thread did I “reject the Word of God and His eternal truth”?

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Caretaker
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quote:
Originally posted by rstrats:
Caretaker,

re: “1 : one that pays tithes...”

Yes, that is one meaning. The one that I used is a colloquialism with which you are apparently not familiar.


re: “Again rstrats you have a propensity to base your rhetorical questions on one verse...”

What rhetorical question have I asked?


re: “You make a conscience choice each time you reject the Word of God and His eternal truth. “

Where have I done that?

I believe that you might have referenced "dither" or "tizzy":

Main Entry: 1dith·er
Pronunciation: \ˈdi-thər\
Function: intransitive verb
Inflected Form(s): dith·ered; dith·er·ing \-th(ə-)riŋ\
Etymology: Middle English didderen
Date: 15th century

1 : shiver, tremble
2 : to act nervously or indecisively : vacillate

Main Entry: tiz·zy
Pronunciation: \ˈti-zē\
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural tizzies
Etymology: origin unknown
Date: 1935

: a highly excited and distracted state of mind

quote:


“Again rstrats you have a propensity to base your rhetorical questions on one verse...”

What rhetorical question have I asked?


Such as the Mark 16 question.


quote:


“You make a conscience choice each time you reject the Word of God and His eternal truth. “

Where have I done that?


The thread on belief.

--------------------
A Servant of Christ,
Drew

1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..

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rstrats
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Caretaker,

re: “1 : one that pays tithes...”

Yes, that is one meaning. The one that I used is a colloquialism with which you are apparently not familiar.


re: “Again rstrats you have a propensity to base your rhetorical questions on one verse...”

What rhetorical question have I asked?


re: “You make a conscience choice each time you reject the Word of God and His eternal truth. “

Where have I done that?

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Carol Swenson
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Caretaker [thumbsup2]

Why do people pretend not to understand what they don't accept when the comprehension is rudimentary?

Because if they admitted they understood then they would also have to admit they were wrong. An easy way to hang on to a falsehood is to dismiss those that disagree with you. For instance, when Galileo tried to show some people the phases of Venus through his telescope they would claim to not be able to see it. If somebody is whipping you in an argument just say they aren't making any sense and walk away quickly. I would call this intellectual cowardice.

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Caretaker
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quote:
Originally posted by rstrats:
Caretaker,

re: “I notice that rstrats tends to latch onto one verse and chew at it like a bulldog, and ignores/disregards the rest of the Word.”

I simply asked a question about that “one verse”. Why are you getting all up in a tither?

re: “You can call the stove cold all day long rstrats, but if it is lit Y'all will get burned. Your understanding/unbelief will not effect the reality one iota. It just brings consequences for you.”

As far as I know, I have never spent a whole day calling a stove cold. And what pray tell does that have to do with my question about Ecclesiastes 12:7?

rstrats asks:
"Why are you getting all up in a tither?"

Main Entry: tith·er
Pronunciation: \ˈtī-thər\
Function: noun
Date: 14th century

1 : one that pays tithes
2 : one that collects or advocates the payment of tithes

It is a good thing to pay tithes.


Again rstrats you have a propensity to base your rhetorical questions on one verse while ignoring the context of God's Word, and rejecting any response based on such.

You make a conscience choice each time you reject the Word of God and His eternal truth.

--------------------
A Servant of Christ,
Drew

1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..

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rstrats
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Caretaker,

re: “I notice that rstrats tends to latch onto one verse and chew at it like a bulldog, and ignores/disregards the rest of the Word.”

I simply asked a question about that “one verse”. Why are you getting all up in a tither?

re: “You can call the stove cold all day long rstrats, but if it is lit Y'all will get burned. Your understanding/unbelief will not effect the reality one iota. It just brings consequences for you.”

As far as I know, I have never spent a whole day calling a stove cold. And what pray tell does that have to do with my question about Ecclesiastes 12:7?

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rstrats
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Carol Swenson,

re: “Should I waste an answer on one who chooses to believe that he is unable to choose to believe so he chooses to not believe?”


Firstly, I have never consciously CHOSEN any of my beliefs, and secondly, what does that have to do with you being able to answer my question about Ecclesiastes 12:7?

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Caretaker
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quote:
Originally posted by Carol Swenson:
Should I waste an answer on one who chooses to believe that he is unable to choose to believe so he chooses to not believe?

But for the other readers I offer my humble reply. [Big Grin]

Most people say the soul and the spirit are two different things. I don't think so.
http://thechristianbbs.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=007009#000000

The Bible makes it clear that God will not tolerate the presence of sin, so it is unthinkable that the unsaved should go to Heaven when they die. The spirit/soul of the redeemed go to Heaven, the presence of God, but the unsaved go to Hades. After the White Throne Judgement they will be cast into the Lake of Fire for eternity.

God bless you Sis Carol;

To have the full counsel of God one needs to take the context of not just one verse, or one chapter, or one book, but the entire Word of God as a whole.

I notice that rstrats tends to latch onto one verse and chew at it like a bulldog, and ignores/disregards the rest of the Word.

I take the words of my Lord Jesus, when He spoke of the rich man and Lazarus, and when He showed John that the false prophet IS still in the lake of fire after 1000 years, and the awareness of the souls under the alter, as all being true and valid and that their is a reality of awareness AND eternal and everlasting consequences for this present existence.

You can call the stove cold all day long rstrats, but if it is lit Y'all will get burned. Your understanding/unbelief will not effect the reality one iota. It just brings consequences for you.

Are the soul and spirit separate, or one, it is irrelevant for they are linked together eternally and will be separated from the body at death and be reunited with the body at resurrection. The righteous having their body transformed into perfection, the unrighteous united with their body and cast into the Lake of Fire for eternity.

--------------------
A Servant of Christ,
Drew

1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..

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Carol Swenson
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Should I waste an answer on one who chooses to believe that he is unable to choose to believe so he chooses to not believe?

But for the other readers I offer my humble reply. [Big Grin]

Most people say the soul and the spirit are two different things. I'm not sure about that.
http://thechristianbbs.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=007009#000000

The Bible makes it clear that God will not tolerate the presence of sin, so it is unthinkable that the unsaved should go to Heaven when they die. The spirit/soul of the redeemed go to Heaven, the presence of God, but the unsaved go to Hades. After the White Throne Judgement they will be cast into the Lake of Fire for eternity.

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rstrats
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Carol Swenson,

re: “I believe that the spirits/souls of the wicked dead are in Hades now.”


So are you saying that Ecclesiastes 12:7 is only referring to the spirits of believers?

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Carol Swenson
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My understanding is a little different. I believe that the spirits/souls of the wicked dead are in Hades now. At The Great White Throne Judgement they will be resurrected, judged, and cast into Hell, The Lake of Fire, for eternity.
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becauseHElives
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Hell exist now.

Matthew 25:41 says, "Depart from me, you cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and His angels." Here we find Hell was created for the fallen angels and not for man. Hell was enlarged to accommodate the fallen human race, but it was not created originally for the human race. It seems to me if selective salvation were true, Hell would have been created for mankind.

--------------------
Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )

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Does hell exist now? Or will it become a reality after the White Throne of Judgement?
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rstrats
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Carol Swenson,

re: “rstrats, would you clearly state what you are hinting at?”

I’m not hinting at anything. I was merely commenting on the “Eternal Soul” part of the topic title. There simply isn’t any scripture that says that a “soul” is inherently immortal.

re: “Do you believe in hell or not?”

Not the hell that you are apparently advocating.

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Eden
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WildB wrote about Eden
quote:
None of what you say matters to me any more LIAR!
For a bornagain Christian elder like you, who should know a lot about forgiveness and compassion and lovingkindness, I think that you are acting very shamefully by your ongoing unChristian remarks toward me and instead you should just say, "LORD, judge between me and Eden", and then let God decide "between you and me". That's the Bible way.

Before God and on the Bible I have told you the truth about my medal, but that is all I can tell you; for the rest you should leave it up to God, WildB.

And seriously, the Lord Jesus's work of redemption and salvation and the people who are reading what we say on this bbs are much more important than one human medal.

love, Eden

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John Hale wrote
quote:
That which went to Abraham's Bosom and to hell (sheol) in Luke 16 (I believe we can agree) can only be the spirit of the individuals named. Their bodies were in the tombs.
No, I cannot agree. The Bible says that the "soul was in hades", NOT the "spirit".

Psalm 16:10
For You will not leave My soul {Heb., nephesh} in hell {Heb., sheol}; neither will You suffer Your Holy One to see corruption.

Acts 2:27
Because You will not leave My soul {Grk., psykhe} in hell {Grk., hades}, neither will You suffer Your Holy One to see corruption.

First of all, it is the soul psykhe which is in hades, which means "the grave". For God will not let Jesus see corruption.

Now in Jesus's case, Jesus got His first body from Mary by the overshadowing of the Holy Spirit and that body was raised from death into the a spiritual body that Jesus had after His resurrection.

But our soul, our "creature", does decay in the grave or hades while we still wait to be clothed with immortality at the first resurrection or rapture, whichever comes first. But the spirit does not go to hades, and it apparently goes back to God.

Now, whether the spirit when returned to God knows anything of its earth life or does any activity while back with God and waiting to be joined to a spiritual body, whether the spirit knows anything or does anything while back with God, I don't know ...

love, Eden

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John Hale
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2 Corinthians 5:1-11 (KJV)
1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.
4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.
5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.
6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight:)
8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
11 Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.

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quote:
Originally posted by Carol Swenson:
Only the body is mortal. The spirit / soul is eternal and will spend a conscious eternity in hell if he does not accept Jesus Christ as SAVIOR and LORD.

The wicked dead will be resurrected, judged, and cast alive into the lake of fire.

I am not trying to stir a bees nest here. Just trying to point out idiomatic parroting of misnomers we presume are true yet find no evidence for. Like eternal souls.

I tried to find this in the Bible and couldn't.

Matthew 10:28 (KJV)
28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Man can kill the body. And therefore the soul ceases to exist because the spirit leaves the body. BUT the soul will return when the spirit reenters the resurrected body (either to life or condemnation for all will be raised to stand judgment).

Stay with me.

Romans 8:23 (KJV)
23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

So just to remind ourselves, this is about a physical resurrection and eternal salvation in the body...

Matthew 10:28 (KJV)
28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Hell (the lake of fire) will be the destruction of the body (never to be raised again) and therefore the destruction of the soul (the buffer between spirit and body) while the conscious spirit that remains suffers in hell forever in torment, darkness, and fire.

Isaiah 66:24 (KJV)
24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

Malachi 4:3 (KJV)
3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.

It's the only way all of this makes sense. That the body and soul are destroyed in hell but the spirit of the condemned lives on in hell. Notice the absence of the spirit in the verse:

Matthew 10:28 (KJV)
28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

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quote:
Originally posted by Eden:
Eden had written
quote:
John Hale, I would only add that the spirit returns to God who made it, at the time of death:

Ecclesiastes 12:7
Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return to God who gave it.

John Hale answered
quote:
Interesting point.

Question is... "to God" for what purpose / disposition? As in return to God for judgment / deliverance / then distribution (to hell or heaven)...

Good question, John Hale, does the spirit remember its "earth life" while "back with God" or is the spirit in a non-remembering state until God "reunites the spirit with a glorified body" at our glorification?

Does the spirit, now back with God, know it is "back with God"? and does the spirit "do anything while back with God" awaiting the spirit's joining up with the glorified body?

Interesting thoughts ...

love, Eden

We can only go on what the Bible says.

That which went to Abraham's Bosom and to hell (sheol) in Luke 16 (I believe we can agree) can only be the spirit of the individuals named. Their bodies were in the tombs. And if the soul is vanquished when the spirit and the body are no longer in contact... then the spirits were in that holding pattern before the eventual return to God... the quote you made in Ecclesiastes could take literally thousands of years to accomplish and may very well refer to the judgment all will face.

And the spirits in Luke 16 were quite aware of themselves and their surroundings.

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WildB
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quote:
Originally posted by Eden:
Eden had written
quote:
John Hale, I would only add that the spirit returns to God who made it, at the time of death:

Ecclesiastes 12:7
Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return to God who gave it.

John Hale answered
quote:
Interesting point.

Question is... "to God" for what purpose / disposition? As in return to God for judgment / deliverance / then distribution (to hell or heaven)...

Good question, John Hale, does the spirit remember its "earth life" while "back with God" or is the spirit in a nonremembering state until God "reunites the spirit with a glorified body" at our glorification?

Does the spirit, now back with God, know it is "back with God"? and does the spirit "do anything while back with God" awaiting the spirit's joining up with the glorified body?

Interesting thoughts ...

love, Eden

None of what you say matters to me any more LIAR!

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That is all.....

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Caretaker
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This may seem like a contradiction in terms, yet the Lord Himself plainly explains that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob were still alive even though they were dead. He said "And as touching the dead, that they rise: have ye not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? {27} He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err." --- Mark 12:26-27. This was the Lord's answer to the Saducees who did not believe in life after death. What plainer proof could be given for the immortality of the soul than these verses. Abraham, Isaac and Jacob were all dead (in their graves) when Jehovah declared Himself to be their God. Although they were departed from this world, their spirits continued to live. Jehovah could not be the God of extinct persons.

The Lord also taught the immortality of the human soul in Matthew 10:28 --- "And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." Tertallion, an ancient writer rightly said of this verse "Here we have recognition of the natural immortality of the soul, which cannot be killed by men" Man is able to kill the body because it is mortal, but he is unable to kill the soul which is immortal. Thus, although man is mortal (subject to death) there is a part of man that is immortal.

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Drew

1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..

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Carol Swenson
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rstrats, would you clearly state what you are hinting at? Do you believe in hell or not?

Matthew 25:46 (NASB)
“These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

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rstrats
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Carol Swenson

The...soul is eternal...”

I wonder if you might provide the scripture that says the soul is inherently immortal or eternal?


Matthew 10:28 says that the soul can be destroyed. If so, this precludes immortality.

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Carol Swenson
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Only the body is mortal. The soul is eternal and will spend a conscious eternity in hell if he does not accept Jesus Christ as SAVIOR and LORD.

The wicked dead will be resurrected, judged, and cast alive into the lake of fire.

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rstrats
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A person is not inherently immortal. Only the supreme being is (1 Timothy 6:16). A person has to put on immortality (1 Corinthians 15:54). Romans 2:7 speaks of seeking immortality. Why would that be necessary if everyone already has it? So since a person does not have immortality, there is no reason that the loving supreme being HAS to give them immortality so that they can spend a conscious eternity of terrible suffering. Who does that benefit?
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Rev. 6:
9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.


Luke 16:
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

Some cannot get out of Egypt cause they are stuck in denial.

--------------------
A Servant of Christ,
Drew

1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..

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quote:
Originally posted by John Hale:
Just did a Bible search for "eternal soul."

Zip bub-kiss in all translations I have.

Neither will you find "grandfather", or "Bible", does not undermine their validity of connotation.

--------------------
A Servant of Christ,
Drew

1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..

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Eden
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Eden had written
quote:
John Hale, I would only add that the spirit returns to God who made it, at the time of death:

Ecclesiastes 12:7
Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return to God who gave it.

John Hale answered
quote:
Interesting point.

Question is... "to God" for what purpose / disposition? As in return to God for judgment / deliverance / then distribution (to hell or heaven)...

Good question, John Hale, does the spirit remember its "earth life" while "back with God" or is the spirit in a nonremembering state until God "reunites the spirit with a glorified body" at our glorification?

Does the spirit, now back with God, know it is "back with God"? and does the spirit "do anything while back with God" awaiting the spirit's joining up with the glorified body?

Interesting thoughts ...

love, Eden

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My only point is that we assume the spirit within us is an inanimate cloud a will of the wisp... as the brain is a glob located at one point and though able to drive all motor function etc is itself a helpless blob.

We shouldn't think of spirit in that way. That there maybe more similarity to our spirits and our bodies than we may realize.

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Luke 16:19-31 (KJV)
19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:
20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man’s table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham’s bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father’s house:
28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

Ever notice the "physical" traits of these spirits in Abraham's bosom and in hell?

How did they know who the other was?

In the transfiguration... who told Peter that the two beside Jesus were Moses and Elijah? How did he know?

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quote:
Originally posted by Eden:
John Hale wrote
quote:
The spirit (pneuma) remains intact and conscious when it departs the body.

The body (soma) becomes lifeless resembling sleep and begins at once to decay when the bodily functions shut down.

The soul (psuche) ceases to exist as it is the buffer between the spirit and the physical.

I like that, John Hale. I would only add that the spirit returns to God who made it, at the time of death:

Ecclesiastes 12:7
Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return to God who gave it.

Good descriptions in your post.

love, Eden

Interesting point. Question is... "to God" for what purpose / disposition? As in return to God for judgment / deliverance / then distribution (to hell or heaven)...

At any rate, if my posit is correct about the body / soul / spirit then all three camps on the afterlife are answered by scripture (annihilation / soul sleep / conscious awareness).

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Just did a Bible search for "eternal soul."

Zip bub-kiss in all translations I have.

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IMHO just a quick thought in no ways complete:

The Body;

The physical container which houses our respective components.

The Spirit:

That which can be born again, which becomes one with Christ through His Holy Spirit.

The Soul:

All that we are our will, our mind, our comprehension and understanding. Our personality and that which is responsible and accountable for our choices.

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A Servant of Christ,
Drew

1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..

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http://bible.org/seriespage/man-trinity-spirit-soul-body

quote:

Man is a triune being because he is created in the image of God. “God said, Let us make man in Our image” (Genesis 1:26). We know that God is a Trinity. The Holy Trinity is clearly set forth in the Apostle Paul’s benediction that closed his Second Corinthian Epistle: “The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen” (2 Corinthians 13:14). Our Lord Himself said, in what we call “The Great Commission”: “Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost” (Matthew 28:19). Created in the image of God, man is likewise a trinity. He has a spiritual nature that is separate and distinct from the body in which it dwells.

The two following passages from the Bible clearly establish the fact that man is a triune being composed of spirit, soul, and body:

I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ (1 Thessalonians 5:23).

For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow (body), and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart (Hebrews 4:12).

In spite of the erroneous teaching of “Jehovah’s Witnesses” and of other false sects that “no man has a soul,” the Bible states emphatically that man was created a trinity of spirit, soul, and body even as the eternal God is Himself a trinity of Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. The trinity of man is an essential part of the image relationship between him and God. Life is not ultimately physical and the body is not the whole man. And we might add that neither the body in itself, nor the soul in itself, nor the spirit in itself makes up the whole man, but he is “spirit and soul and body.” This must be seriously considered and definitely agreed to before we can comprehend with any accuracy the subject of life after death. In this opening chapter we shall confine our material to the spirit and the soul inasmuch as the body will be considered in succeeding chapters on the resurrection.


quote:


It is in the soul where fleshly lusts, desires, and appetites arise:

Abstain from fleshly lusts which war against the soul (Peter 2:11).

As cold waters to a thirsty soul, so is good news from a far country (Proverbs 25:25).

It shall be even as when a hungry man dreameth, and behold, he eateth; but he awaketh, and his soul is empty; or as when a thirsty man dreameth, and behold, he drinketh; but he awaketh, and behold, he is faint, and his soul hath appetite (Isaiah 29:8).

The soul of man, that is, his affections and desires, are never directed Godward until after the spirit has become regenerated. Man can never love God nor the things of God until he is born from above. He may have a troubled conscience or be so stirred emotionally that he may weep bitterly, and still remain dead in trespasses and in sins. We do not feel that we are guilty of judging men when we state that some who have answered an altar call and shed tears never were born again. Man’s desires and affections are turned toward God when he realizes his sinful condition and God’s grace in salvation. When the Spirit of God illuminates the spirit of a man with divine light and life, that man begins to yield his affections and faculties to God.

The Virgin Mary said; “My soul doth magnify the Lord, And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour” (Luke 1:46, 47). She could not extol the Lord in her soul until she had recognized God in her spirit as her Saviour. The initial triumph is in the spirit when Jesus Christ is acknowledged as personal Saviour.




--------------------
A Servant of Christ,
Drew

1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..

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Carol Swenson
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The soul is mind, emotions and will - the personality. It continues after death as Moses and Elijah at the transfiguration prove (Matthew 17:1-8)


Matt 10:28
And do not fear those who kill the body, but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

False Views

Recently the doctrine of Annihilationism has been most often associated with groups descended from William Miller and the Adventist movement of the mid-1800s (see Millerites), including Seventh-day Adventists, Bible Students, Jehovah's Witnesses, Christadelphians, followers of Herbert Armstrong, and the various Advent Christian churches. Le Roy Froom's 1965 work The Conditionalist Faith of our Fathers is considered a classic. It is also held by some liberal Christians.

The doctrine is often, although not always, bound up with the notion of "conditional immortality", a belief that the soul is not innately immortal. They are related yet distinct. At death, both the wicked and righteous will pass into non-existence, only to be resurrected (or more precisely re-created) at the final judgment. God, who alone is immortal, passes on the gift of immortality to the righteous, who will live forever in heaven or on an idyllic earth, while the wicked will ultimately face a second death.

Those who believe in this doctrine may not like to use "annihilationist" to define themselves. In his book The Fire that Consumes, Edward Fudge coined the term "conditionalist." Moreover, he limits "annihilationism" to refer to that subset of people who believe that the wicked do not rise to face the final judgment. In this sense, the term would refer to Jehovah's Witnesses, but not to Seventh-day Adventists.

(Wiki)

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Eden
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John Hale wrote
quote:
The spirit (pneuma) remains intact and conscious when it departs the body.

The body (soma) becomes lifeless resembling sleep and begins at once to decay when the bodily functions shut down.

The soul (psuche) ceases to exist as it is the buffer between the spirit and the physical.

I like that, John Hale. I would only add that the spirit returns to God who made it, at the time of death:

Ecclesiastes 12:7
Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return to God who gave it.

Good descriptions in your post.

love, Eden

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The spirit (pneuma) remains intact and conscious when it departs the body.

The body (soma) becomes lifeless resembling sleep and begins at once to decay when the bodily functions shut down.

The soul (psuche) ceases to exist as it is the buffer between the spirit and the physical.

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Carol Swenson
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Hell in the Old Testament:

Dan 12:2 "And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, Some to everlasting life, Some to shame and everlasting contempt. "

Isaiah 66:24 "“ And they shall go forth and look
Upon the corpses of the men
Who have transgressed against Me.
For their worm does not die,
And their fire is not quenched.
They shall be an abhorrence to all flesh.”

Isaiah 33:10-14 "“ Now I will rise,” says the LORD;
“ Now I will be exalted,
Now I will lift Myself up.
11 You shall conceive chaff,
You shall bring forth stubble;
Your breath, as fire, shall devour you.
12 And the people shall be like the burnings of lime;
Likethorns cut up they shall be burned in the fire.
13 Hear, you who are afar off, what I have done;
And you who are near, acknowledge My might.”
14 The sinners in Zion are afraid;
Fearfulness has seized the hypocrites:
“ Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire?
Who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?” "

Isaiah 1:31 "The strong shall be as tinder,
And the work of it as a spark;
Both will burn together,
And no one shall quench them."

Psalm 21:8- 9 "Your hand will find all Your enemies;
Your right hand will find those who hate You.
9 You shall make them as a fiery oven in the time of Your anger;
The LORD shall swallow them up in His wrath,
And the fire shall devour them.

Jer 7:20 "Therefore thus says the Lord GOD: “Behold, My anger and My fury will be poured out on this place—on man and on beast, on the trees of the field and on the fruit of the ground. And it will burn and not be quenched.”


Hell in the New Testament:

There are over 162 references in the Christian Scriptures (New Testament) which warn of Hell.

Over 70 of these references are attributed to Jesus.

According to the gospels, Jesus spoke more on Hell than on any other subject.

The word Hell in the Christian Scriptures appears frequently in:

Mark (3 occurrences),

Matthew (12),

Luke (3),

Acts (2),

Revelation (4).

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