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Topic: because of the angels
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WildB
Moderator
Member # 2917
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ezekiel 13:20:
Paul is speaking of the fallen angels here.
As it was in the days of Noah,so shall it be again.
Not many people have ever been taught what was going on in those days. Such a sad,sad mess are the modern day Laodicean churches.
Now thats real silly. The fallen angels of Noah's day are kinda locked up. Why would Paul bother speaking of them?
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That is all.....
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Ezekiel 13:20
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posted
Paul is speaking of the fallen angels here.
As it was in the days of Noah,so shall it be again.
Not many people have ever been taught what was going on in those days. Such a sad,sad mess are the modern day Laodicean churches.
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Eden
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posted
Interesting thoughts, Bloodbought, thanks.
love, Eden
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Bloodbought
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posted
Hi Eden,
You asked, "What does that phrase, "because of the angels", mean?"
Good question,
There is a distinction between man and woman in the divine order. Women is under the authority of man, 1 Corinthians 11:8 For the man is not of the woman; but the woman of the man. 9 Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man. “Man is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man,” v7.
There is no such distinction between angels. Angels worship God equally without any section of them needing to show that they are under any authority apart from God. Angels glorify God in worship, Luke 2:13 And suddenly there was with the angel a multitude of the heavenly host praising God, and saying, 14 Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace, good will toward men.
Because of the position of the woman in the divine order, it is necessary for her to have power or, authority on her head, so that she can have equality in public worship and in prayer and prophesy on the same level as men, just as angels have equality in worship. Failure to comply with the divine command to let a woman cover her head in public worship because of the angels, shows they are in rebellion and unfit to approach God in prayer. Man is the glory of God. The woman is the glory of the man. The glory of the woman is her hair and she must cover her glory so that she does not dishonour her head, and so that she can worship God in spirit and in truth. The man without head covering and the woman with head covering in public worship, gives them the same rights in the spiritual realm as angels who neither marry nor are given in marriage. Both men and women in public worship, must comply with Paul’s teaching in order to be equal in worship because of the angels position of equality.
In Jewish worship the distinction between men and women was drawn by a veil separating them. In the new testament church where men and women mingle, head covering has the same effect as the Jewish veil of separation.
Just some food for thought. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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Carol Swenson
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Member # 6929
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posted
Why did Paul bring up the angels in 1 Corinthians 11:10? He was arguing from the facts of Creation, and the angels were a part of that Creation. The angels also know their place and show respect when they worship God, for they cover their faces (Isa. 6:2). Finally, in some special way, the angels share in the public worship of the church and learn from the church (Eph. 3:10; 1 Peter 1:12). Public worship is a serious thing, for the angels are present; and we ought to conduct ourselves as if we were in heaven.
Bible Exposition Commentary - Be Wise (1 Corinthians).
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WildB
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Member # 2917
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posted
The Church taught that it mattered to the angels whether women cover their heads. But why? Was the covering "a sign of submission to her husband," as some commentaries say, or "a cultural statement of inferiority," as one woman told me in explaining why she would not wear a veil? A friend and former dean of a Lutheran seminary in Norway, Hkon Haus, pointed to another possible reason. He looked up I Corinthians 11:10 in Greek: "Therefore the woman shall have exousia [right, power, authority] on her head for the sake of the angels." The word exousia, said Hkon, also occurs in John 1:12: "As many as received Him, to them He gave exousia to become children of God, to those who believe in His name." I felt a light go on. Was St. Paul saying that the head-covering was an outward sign of my "authority, right, power" as a female child of God, recognized by the angels? It rang excitingly true! God asks voluntary submission and obedience of His children. I chose to wear the sign of my feminine—as distinguished from masculine—authority. But why should the angels care?
In her book, The Holy angels, Mother Alexandra writes: "The Celestial hierarchies are thespiritual reality of ordered creation, the stable patterns in which disruption is unknown" Obedience is characteristic of the angelic realm. Dionysius the Areopagite, influential since the fifth century, wrote of nine orders or hierarchies of celestial beings, arranged in three choirs. Seraphim and cherubim are in the first, archangels and angels in the third choir, closest to us. Without obedience there is chaos and disorder. St. John Chrysostom, in a sermon on I Corinthians, speaks of how distinction in male and female dress— and particularly the veiling of women—"ministers effectively to good order among mankind." Taking off the veil was "no small error," said St. John; "it is disobedience." It "disturbs all things and betrays the gifts of God, and casts to the ground the honor bestowedFor to [the woman] it is the greatest of honor to preserve her own rank." To some who argued that a woman, by taking off her covering, "mounts up to the glory of man," Chrysostom answers: "She doth not mount up, but rather falls from her own proper honorSince not to abide within our own limits and the laws of God, but to go beyond, is not an addition, but a diminution" Always emphasizing the equality between man and woman, Chrysostom admonishes the man "not to dishonor her who governs next to thyself." The issue was order, not superiority or inferiority. At Matins for Orthodoxy Sunday, we sing, "Come and let us celebrate a day of joy: Now heaven makes glad! Earth with all the hosts of angels and the companies of mortal men, each in their varied order, keeps the feast."
The answer to my prayer nearly thirty years ago, that I might know what it means to be a woman, and to live it as God wills for me, is becoming clearer in obedience—often in little things, like putting on a scarf. The mystery of womanhood is still incomprehensible, but now I think, so it must be. I don't have to understand fully what it means to be a woman in order to know that I am a woman and to live it. God knows the meaning and I trust Him. I don't have to fight for my place or my right; it is given me in the glorious ranks of angels and mortals.
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That is all.....
Posts: 8775 | From: USA, MICHIGAN | Registered: Mar 2004
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oneinchrist
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posted
Hi Eden,
Your question:
What does that phrase, "because of the angels", mean?
I think its going to be difficult to get a definitive answer to your question. Even in my bible footnotes for 1 Cor. 11:10, bible scholars themselves evidently have differing views going on to say that it may mean this or it may mean that.
Anyways, here is what my footnotes say for that particular verse...the words "the angels"
11:10 The angels represent the spiritual realm and MAY refer to the efforts of fallen demonic beings to motivate to pride and to invest themselves wherever they can inspire arrogance. The term MAY also be recalling the original authority that was lost over the garden of Eden because Eve was "uncovered," that is, she acted independently of Adam. At that time, their priveleged authority and access were lost (Gen. 3:24). Behind the symbolism of wearing the veil is the acknowledgement of mankind's need to show submission to divinely appointed authority if he is to regain the dominion lost (Gen. 1:28). True authority comes by submissiveness, and both men and women---husbands and wives---are called to learn it. (Eph. 5:21).
With love in Christ, Daniel
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Caretaker
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http://www.bible-researcher.com/angels.html
quote:
But the point is, these passages suggest that among Jews of the first century, Paul's expression "because of the Angels" may have been a conventional way of referring to the requirements of a sacred gathering. It would be quite natural to extend the concept, in a less stringent way, to all gatherings in which prayer is offered. And so we might speculate that, by using this phrase, Paul means to say that if some unruly Corinthian women scorn the Church's "dress code" in the prayer meetings, this tends to violate the sacred spirit of the gathering—especially if they are overly bold to take a leading part in the meetings, offering prayers on behalf of the men, and so forth. Surely the angels will frown on it! Under this interpretation we would have to assume that among the Corinthians the expression "because of the angels" would have been understood in this way, through Paul's prior use of the phrase in his ministry among them.
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A Servant of Christ,
Drew
1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..
Posts: 3978 | From: Council Grove, KS USA | Registered: Jun 2002
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Eden
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posted
For me, that phrase "because of the angels", has thus far always referred to the good and bad angels.
In other words, by wearing the veil on her head the woman was signifying to the good and bad angels that she was submitting herself to the headship of her husband so long as he submitted himself to the headship of Christ.
The angels don't know everything, and that was one way how saved human beings could "show their allegiance to the good angels", but the "bad angels" could also see it.
On the other hand, if that were the case, then the good and bad angels would still not have any evidence from the husbands where they stood with God, so it seems unlikely that the women wore the veil on their head "because of the angels" to "show the angels their allegiance", for that would still leave the question of the husbands' allegiance untold.
![[Confused]](confused.gif)
love, Eden
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Eden
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Hello, John Hale, you wrote quote:
Paul was addressing the sign of authority on the head of women because of the people God sent (the angels). Men and women. And the angel unawares one might host or give water to may only be Billy Graham (only you didn't know it was him).
Please explain the part that I bolded.
Also, so you are proposing that the angels were men or messengers sent by God to the congregation in the verse:
1 Corinthians 11:10
For this cause ought the woman to have power on her head because of the angels.
So John Hale, let's say I was an angel or a messenger come to a congregation, and then why were the women in the church wearing things on their head "just for me"? Please explain.
love, Eden
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John Hale
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Angels (sent ones / messengers) is a term describing a function or office rather than a species of beings. What man often thinks of as angels (cherubim and seraphim) are not the only ones who can be angels. People are angels (malak in Hebrew / aggelos in Greek) if one is sent as a messenger or representative of another.
The "Angel" of the Lord is believed by most to be the Lord Jesus preincarnate and the Holy Spirit when Jesus was on Earth.
Paul was addressing the sign of authority on the head of women because of the people God sent (the angels). Men and women. And the angel unawares one might host or give water to may only be Billy Graham (only you didn't know it was him).
The sign of authority on a woman was protective of that woman and of society from effemanizations we are drowning in today... for example: one cannot tune in a morning news talk show without getting an eye full of a woman's right to flaunt her body any way she chooses... even older familiar women who used to never do such things.
Most guys lap up the "eye candy." The starving dog syndrome quick to devour the poisonous meat and wanting for more of it as it dies from the poison...
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byfaith
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I have always been intrigued by this subject. Many will say that it was a time period-culture thing...but then why would Paul say "because of the Angels" if that were the case?
My mother in law said that she at one time always covered her head in church, but that when they moved here it was not done and she stopped as to not draw attention to herself.
I hope more people can jump in with more insight and or experiences.
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Eden
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1 Corinthians 11:10
For this cause ought the woman to have power on her head because of the angels.
What does that phrase, "because of the angels", mean?
love, Eden
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