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Topic: question about the second sign in Exodus 7:20-25
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becauseHElives
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Member # 87
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Eden I believe Satan will be allowed by Yahweh to do real miracles not pseudo miracles.....
the prophets of Baal were in full expectation of winning in the trail by fire...I believe they had called down fire before...but Satan can only do what Yahweh allows....
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
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WildB
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quote:
Originally posted by Eden:
My Christian brother WildB (who is saved by the blood of Jesus) wrote to his Christian brother Eden (who is also saved by the blood of Jesus)and WildB wrote about Eden quote:
Just like a pseudo soldier with a pseudo medal.
WildB, I will grant you that that was a good opportunity to use the word "pseudo", as youi did in pseudo soldier and pseudo medal.
But I did get a bronze star medal without the V for valor.
Now, I will grant you, WildB, that a bronze star WITHOUT the V for valor is worth "a lot less" and is "by comparison almost a 'pseudo medal'" than the bronze star WIth the V for valor.
The bronze star WITHOUT the V for valor is issued "for exceptionally meritorious service", but I'll reveal this much about me, that at the time that the bronze star was issued to me, I don't think I was a bornagain Christian at that time.
And today, as a bornagain Christian who is more upright with the help of the Holy Spirit than he was before, might have said to his warrant officer that "I really don't deserve to get the bronze star without the V for valor, because I have really not done all that "exceptionally meritorious service" over and beyond my fellow soldiers in the combat zone.
So WildB had written about Eden quote:
Just like a pseudo soldier with a pseudo medal.
So yes, in some sense what I received was a pseudo bronze star medal, for to me the only REAL bronze star medal is the one WITH the V for valor, and the U.S. Army should DO AWAY with the bronze star without the V for valor because it DILUTES the great deeds done by those truly deserving of the bronze star WITH the V for valor.
But I was not a pseudo soldier and I did not receive a pseudo medal, WildB. I just don't want to reveal personal data to anyone on the very public Internet. My personal data is best guarded by me, and not be anyone else.
love, Eden
Hockey puck to the shin.
I thought so. You liar. Maybe I can have one of my military buds give you the answer that you can't find on Google.
IF you have a star who authorized it for the president? And its not personal data its common knowledge to those that know.
A first name, last name ?
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That is all.....
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Eden
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My Christian brother WildB (who is saved by the blood of Jesus) wrote to his Christian brother Eden (who is also saved by the blood of Jesus)and WildB wrote about Eden quote:
Just like a pseudo soldier with a pseudo medal.
WildB, I will grant you that that was a good opportunity to use the word "pseudo", as youi did in pseudo soldier and pseudo medal.
But I did get a bronze star medal without the V for valor.
Now, I will grant you, WildB, that a bronze star WITHOUT the V for valor is worth "a lot less" and is "by comparison almost a 'pseudo medal'" than the bronze star WIth the V for valor.
The bronze star WITHOUT the V for valor is issued "for exceptionally meritorious service", but I'll reveal this much about me, that at the time that the bronze star was issued to me, I don't think I was a bornagain Christian at that time.
And today, as a bornagain Christian who is more upright with the help of the Holy Spirit than he was before, might have said to his warrant officer that "I really don't deserve to get the bronze star without the V for valor, because I have really not done all that "exceptionally meritorious service" over and beyond my fellow soldiers in the combat zone.
So WildB had written about Eden quote:
Just like a pseudo soldier with a pseudo medal.
So yes, in some sense what I received was a pseudo bronze star medal, for to me the only REAL bronze star medal is the one WITH the V for valor, and the U.S. Army should DO AWAY with the bronze star without the V for valor because it DILUTES the great deeds done by those truly deserving of the bronze star WITH the V for valor.
But I was not a pseudo soldier and I did not receive a pseudo medal, WildB. I just don't want to reveal personal data to anyone on the very public Internet. My personal data is best guarded by me, and not be anyone else.
love, Eden
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WildB
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Just like a pseudo solder with a pseudo medal.
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That is all.....
Posts: 8775 | From: USA, MICHIGAN | Registered: Mar 2004
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Eden
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hi, becauseHElives, regarding the "lying wonders", Carol Swenson had posted this: quote:
Thayer's Greek Lexicon:
Lying
pseudos
1) a lie
2) conscious and intentional falsehood
3a) in a broad sense, whatever is not what it seems to be
3b) of perverse, impious, deceitful precepts
Regarding the Greak word "pseudos", which the KJV translators translated as "lying", we also use that word "pseudo" in English, where it tends to mean "pretending to be someone or something that one is not", as these examples pulled from the Internet:
Actually I went on the Internet but found it difficult to find out what the English equivalent "pseudo" actually meant.
In English we tend to put that word "pseudo" before a noun like "pseudo intelligence" or "pseudo science", which means, I think, that "it masquerades as intelligence" and "it masquerades as science" so it LOOKS very similar to real intellgence and real science, but somehow it is not, it is a "pseudo intelligence".
Applying this to "pseudo wonders", or as the KVJ translators said, "lying wonders", does the "pseudo" really refer to that the "purpose" of the "wonders are", namely to "draw people away from Jesus and Yahweh", or does the "pseudo" or "lying wonders" refer more to the "quality" of the wonders, meaning, "they look like wonders" bur "are really not wonders".
Or maybe the intent is, "they look like wonders OF GOD" bur "they are not really wonders OF GOD", is that what is meant by "pseudo wonders" instead of "wonders that are intended to draw people away from Jesus and Yahweh"?
Although ultimately I think the result is the same, if they are not "God's miracles" and are not "Jesus's miraclles" but are "Lucifer's miracles", then in any case "Lucifer's miracles" are intended to cause Lucifer to become the prince of Ezekiel 44, or, as becauseHELives said, "wonders done with the intent of drawing believers away from Jesus and Yahweh".
But judging from how "pseudo" came to be used in English, I tend to think that the "pseudo" means "they look like God's miracles but they are Lucifer's miracles, done to promote himself instead of Jesus".
love, Eden
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becauseHElives
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thank you Eden, it was your question that triggered my search that located the article...
it made sense to me to quote:
lying wonders, with the word "lying" specifically meaning "that the wonders are done to pull people away from God",
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
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Carol Swenson
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Very good article becauseHElives.
There is only one power, and He is God.
Our Lord Jesus Christ is God. Satan is by no means "another god". Satan is only a created being whose very existence depends on God.
Satan is an angel and is not bound by the same physical laws that human beings are. If he can manipulate matter and energy in ways unknown to us, ways that we would think of as supernatural, that is understandable. There are places in the world where a flashlight or a TV would seem to be supernatural to those people.
But he's a deceiver, and he cannot do anything at all except that the ability and permissions be given to him by God.
Satan must ask God's permission to tempt someone.
Luke 22:31 "Simon, Simon, Satan has asked to sift you as wheat."
God sets limits on what Satan can do.
1 Corinthians 10:13 No temptation has seized you except what is common to man. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can stand up under it.
Mat 16:4b (NIV) "A wicked and adulterous generation looks for a miraculous sign."
People who are not willing to have faith in the true Christ will believe in the lying wonders of Antichrist.
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Eden
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Very interesting post, becauseHElives, about signs and miracles and Satan and lying wonders, with the word "lying" specifically meaning "that the wonders are done to pull people away from God", I liked that. That makes sense.
Because ultimately Lucifer-Satan wants to be the one whio sits as Prince in the Eastern Gate again, and all Lucifer-Satan's work is geared toward being that Prince instead of Jesus of Nazareth.
So Satan can do wonders, but he uses them to deceive people so that Jesus does not become the Prince in the Eastern Gate:
Ezekiel 44
1 Then he brought me back the way of the gate of the outward sanctuary which looks toward the east; and it was shut.
2 Then said the LORD to me: This gate shall be shut, it shall not be opened, and no man shall enter in by it; because the LORD, the God of Israel, has entered in by it, therefore it shall be shut.
3 It is for the prince; the prince, He shall sit in it to eat bread before the LORD; He shall enter by the way of the porch of that gate, and shall go out by the way of the same.
So ultimately it is Lucifer-Satan's aim to become that prince who sits in the east gate, and to prevent Jesus of Nazareth from becoming that prince, by doing "wonders with intent to cause people not to believe in Jesus." Jesus did actual miracles, presumably Lucifer-Satan will do actual miracles.
love, Eden
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becauseHElives
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Mt 24:24 "For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect--if that were possible."
Given the specific and unqualified warning of Jesus, the principal meaning of 2Th 2:9, then, should be interpreted:
* ...that the strategic aim of the miracles done is to deceive, to lie.
There are warnings concerning real miracles sourced by Satan even in the old testament, with specific instructions on how to deal with a "prophet" who is able to work a supernatural sign that has the result of leading people away from God (cited momentarily). These, then, are "lying" miracles, for their whole purpose and aim is to deceive. If Satan does a miracle, its inherent core and essence is "lying", since lying is his "native language" (Jn 8:44), as Jesus puts it.
The Jamieson-Fausset-Brown commentary correctly explains: "After--according to the working ("energy") of Satan, as opposed to the energy or working of the Holy Spirit in the Church. As Christ is related to God, so is Antichrist to Satan, his visible embodiment and manifestation: Satan works through him. (Re 13:2 ...The dragon gave the beast his power and his throne and great authority.) lying wonders--literally, "wonders" or "prodigies of falsehood." His "power, signs, and wonders," all have falsehood for their base, essence, and aim (John 8:44 "You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies."), In (Mt 24:24 "For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect--if that were possible.") Jesus implies that the miracles shall be real, though demonic; such mysterious effects of the powers of darkness as we read of in the case of the Egyptian sorcerers, not such as Jesus performed in their character, power, or aim; for they are against the revealed Word, and therefore not to be accepted as evidences of truth; nay, on the authority of that sure Word of prophecy to be known and rejected as wrought in support of falsehood. The same three Greek words occur for miracles of Jesus (Ac 2:22 "...Jesus of Nazareth was a man accredited by God to you by miracles, wonders and signs, which God did among you through him...) and (Heb 2:4 God also testified to it by signs, wonders and various miracles...); showing that as the Egyptian magicians imitated Moses (2Ti 3:1-8 But mark this: There will be terrible times in the last days... They are the kind who worm their way into homes and gain control over weak-willed women, who are loaded down with sins and are swayed by all kinds of evil desires, always learning but never able to acknowledge the truth. Just as Jannes and Jambres opposed Moses, so also these men oppose the truth--men of depraved minds, who, as far as the faith is concerned, are rejected.), so Antichrist will try to imitate Christ's works as a "sign," or proof of divinity."
Satan can perform "real" supernatural miracles, signs, and wonders; for this is a specific warning given over and again as a hallmark of the End of the Age. Thus, the additional "lying" adjective of 2Th 2:9 should be interpreted in context as speaking to the strategic aim of the miracles in its principle meaning. Again, allowing for hints as a secondary meaning, we should not "be deceived" (if it were possible ) as to the ability of Satan to do miracles. Even the false prophets of the old-covenant (timid, in comparison to the lawless one coming) could perform signs, and we are specifically warned against taking these real miracles as an excuse for following them. For there are two senses a prophet can be "false". The easy case is where the sign he touts is false, as in: "The planets aligning 1982 will cause massive earthquakes" which does not happen. But what if someone announces a miraculous sign that does come true but is "false" in the sense that he/she is using the sign to lead people away from the truth about the "Name" (nature) of the Lord? This second and ultimate sense of a "false prophet" is what we need to be soberminded about in order that Satan might not outwit us in these last days, for we are not unaware of his schemes (2Cr 2:11). Here is the scripture giving particular instructions along this line:
De 13:1-8 (NIV) If a prophet, or one who foretells by dreams, appears among you and announces to you a miraculous sign or wonder, and if the sign or wonder of which he has spoken TAKES PLACE, and he says, "Let us follow other gods" (gods you have not known) "and let us worship them," you must not listen to the words of that prophet or dreamer. The Lord your God is testing you to find out whether you love him with all your heart and with all your soul. That prophet or dreamer must be put to death, because he preached rebellion against the Lord your God... he has tried to turn you from the way the Lord your God commanded you to follow. You must purge the evil from among you. If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying, "Let us go and worship other gods" (gods that neither you nor your fathers have known... do not yield to him or listen to him. Show him no pity. Do not spare him or shield him...
This verse, by the way, is part of the "False Prophecy" bible study in the Spiritual Adultery Series. This deals with the contingency of a miracle offered as sanction "taking place" (really being done) but for a lying purpose to lead people away from God, and how we should thus respond. The "cackling revival" makes a good example of this in its earlier days: there were real supernatural manifestations, but the consistent depictions of God were as a clown, a manic buffoon, etc. Is this the God we "have known" and that "our fathers have known"? People were laughing at Christ and denigrating Him, blaspheming His Name and Word, etc., which led to even more "cackling". A sign and wonder (albeit not overtly supernatural) of a "lying" quality, and a warm-up (in my discernment) of things to come. Brace yourself, there is more and worse coming.
Rev 13:5-6 (NIV) The beast was given a mouth to utter proud words and blasphemies and to exercise his authority for forty-two months. He opened his mouth to blaspheme God, and to slander his name and his dwelling place and those who live in heaven.
Take note of the unique phrasing in the above prophecy of "his dwelling place" in light of our previous discussion of the supposed "rebuilt (physical) temple". Jesus Himself spoke against the physical temple, a prophecy which took place in 70AD, and the Holy Spirit rather poignantly ripped the physical temple up when Jesus died. For God never intended to "dwell" in temples made of stone (Acts 17:24 & 7:48), Interesting, eh? The beast speaks lies not only about God's character, but ours as well as the "great multitude" of our father's and mother's in the faith. But back to the point.
Mat 24:24 (NAS) "For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead..."
Rev 13:11-15 (NIV) Then I saw another beast, coming out of the earth. He had two horns like a lamb, but he spoke like a dragon. He exercised all the authority of the first beast on his behalf, and made the earth and its inhabitants worship the first beast, whose fatal wound had been healed. And he performed great and miraculous signs, even causing fire to come down from heaven to earth in full view of men. Because of the signs he was given power to do on behalf of the first beast, he deceived the inhabitants of the earth. He ordered them to set up an image in honor of the beast who was wounded by the sword and yet lived. He was given power to give breath to the image of the first beast, so that it could speak and cause all who refused to worship the image to be killed.
Rev 13:7a (NIV) He was given power to make war against the saints and to conquer them.
Rev 16:13-15 (NIV) Then I saw three evil spirits that looked like frogs; they came out of the mouth of the dragon, out of the mouth of the beast and out of the mouth of the false prophet. They are spirits of demons performing miraculous signs, and they go out to the kings of the whole world, to gather them for the battle on the great day of God Almighty. "Behold, I come like a thief! Blessed is he who stays awake and keeps his clothes with him, so that he may not go naked and be shamefully exposed."
Rev 19:20 (NIV) But the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who had performed the miraculous signs on his behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped his image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur.
2Thes 2:9-15 (TCN) For at the Coming of the Lord there will be great activity on the part of Satan, in the form of all kinds of deceptive miracles, signs, and marvels, as well as of wicked attempts to delude--to the ruin of those who are on the path to destruction, because they have never received and loved the Truth to their own Salvation. That is why God places them under the influence of a delusion, to cause them to believe a lie; so that sentence may be passed on all those who refuse to believe the Truth, but delight in wickedness. But, Brothers, whom the Lord loves, it is our duty always to thank God about you, for, from the first, God chose you for Salvation through the purifying influence of the Spirit, and your belief in the Truth. To this you were called by the Good News which we brought you, to attain to the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. Stand firm then, Brothers, and hold fast to the truths that we taught you, whether by word or by letter.
http://www.acts17-11.com/dialogs_signs_and_wonders.html
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
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Carol Swenson
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Very interesting Paul! God nullified all the main Egyptian gods, beating them at their own game. ![[clap2]](graemlins/clap2.gif) I came across another interesting thing stating that the ten plagues are divided into three groups of three that show the attributes of God and types of Christ. What do you think?
Someone asked about this verse a few posts back:
2 Thessalonians 2:9
Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders.
Power
Thayer's Greek Lexicon:
dunamis
1) strength power, ability
1a) inherent power, power residing in a thing by virtue of its nature, or which a person or thing exerts and puts forth
1b) power for performing miracles
1c) moral power and excellence of soul
1d) the power and influence which belong to riches and wealth
1e) power and resources arising from numbers
1f) power consisting in or resting upon armies, forces, hosts
![[Cool]](cool.gif) This list describes all leaders of government except 1b and 1c. As a world leader, the Antichrist of 2 Thessalonians 2:9 will have power, but not necessarily 1b and certainly not 1c.
Signs
Thayer's Greek Lexicon:
sēmeion
1) a sign, mark, token
1a) that by which a person or a thing is distinguished from others and is known
1b) a sign, prodigy, portent, i.e. an unusual occurrence, transcending the common course of nature
1b1) of signs portending remarkable events soon to happen
1b2) of miracles and wonders by which God authenticates the men sent by him, or by which men proverbs that the cause they are pleading is God's
The Antichrist will be accompanied by many signs that the Bible tells us about, but not 1b2 which is the only mention of miracles.
Wonders
Thayer's Greek Lexicon:
teras
1) a prodigy, portent
2) miracle: performed by any one
Okay, here's "miracle: performed by anyone". But the Antichrist's are lying wonders.
Lying
Thayer's Greek Lexicon:
pseudos
1) a lie
2) conscious and intentional falsehood
3) in a broad sense, whatever is not what it seems to be
3a) of perverse, impious, deceitful precepts
![[cool_shades]](graemlins/cool_shades.gif) Not what it seems to be.
But anyway, whatever abilities Satan and Antichrist have, for however long they have them and for whatever reason they have them, it's only because God allows them for His own good purposes.
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Eden
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Thank you, Brother Paul, for this information quote:
When the waters would rise and linger (blessing their crops) the frogs would multiply....Heqt was the lord of frogs...this was a sign he was blessing them, however with Moses God controlling them they overpopulated and endangered their crops. The magicians had absolutely no control over this or any other of the plagues from now on. Control of the lice and the flies mocked Kepher who is the same as Ba'alzebub. The death of the cattle showed power over Apis (the BUll god). The boils over Thoth the god of magic and healing.Firey Hail over Nut the goddess of the sky. Seth the god of the crops was embarrassed by the plague of locusts, and RA (the Sun) was overcome by the sudden darkness. But most humiliating of all was when Pharaoh himself was overcome by his own pride and was swallowed alive in the sea.
Also please note what I've written in my past post in this Topic that the LICE of the KJV should almost certainly have been TICKS, as you can decide for yourself by what I've written there.
Brother Paul, I appreciate your extensive knowledge of the Word of God and I appreciate hearing of the collateral evidences and witnesses to the Word of God, as set forth above by you. Be blessed in Jesus for your hard work; it did not just grow on trees.
love, Eden
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Brother Paul
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The trick with the serpent was probably a trick, but it was no less a miracle for the serpent (worn on the headress of Pharaoh) created by Moses's God could consume and destroy their gods. This was to lead into the ten plagues, which were progressive attacks each against another of their gods. Hapi their god of the Nile again was only the beginning. In turn Yahweh comes against all their main gods ending triumphantly with the death of Pharaoh (their 'son of the gods' and no less a deity in their eyes).
When the waters would rise and linger (blessing their crops) the frogs would multiply....Heqt was the lord of frogs...this was a sign he was blessing them, however with Moses God controlling them they overpopulated and endangered their crops. The magicians had absolutely no control over this or any other of the plagues from now on. Control of the lice and the flies mocked Kepher who is the same as Ba'alzebub. The death of the cattle showed power over Apis (the BUll god). The boils over Thoth the god of magic and healing.Firey Hail over Nut the goddess of the sky. Seth the god of the crops was embarrassed by the plague of locusts, and RA (the Sun) was overcome by the sudden darkness. But most humiliating of all was when Pharaoh himself was overcome by his own pride and was swallowed alive in the sea.
The point was not one trick bested by another because even Apollonius of Tyana once allegedly raised a man from the dead, but the profressive demolition and embarrassment of all the major gods of Egypt was to show the people that in Israel, their God was God, the God of gods and the Lord of lords. I know this does not answer your specific question but it should add some perspective for discussion.
Brother Paul
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Eden
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In the KJV, the third plague reads as follows:
Exodus 8
16 And the LORD said to Moses, Say to Aaron, Stretch out your rod and smite the dust of the land, that it may become lice throughout all the land of Egypt.
17 And they did so; for Aaron stretched out his hand with his rod, and smote the dust of the earth, and it became lice in man and in beast; all the dust of the land became lice throughout all the land of Egypt.
The English explorer Samuel Baker explored northeast Africa, in particular along the Atbara river valley in southeast Nubia (now east-northeast Sudan) up to the foothills of northwest Ethiopia.
Baker found that LICE NEVER LIVE ON THE GROUND but only IN HAIR. But he did find that at certain times of the year, the GROUND in that region just SWARMED with TICKS which DO live on the ground.
At that time of year, one could almost sit down nowhere without having sitting on ticks, and they tended to have to find rocky plateaus from which the soil had blown off by the wind, so that they could pitch their tent there. But he said during that season, ticks got into everything, into humans and animals.
Baker therefore proposes that the tranlators of the KJV chose the wrong animal when they chose the word LICE to translate the Hebrew word in Exodus 8 as LICE because Baker said that LICE only live in moist places with hair, and lice NEVER live on the ground.
But TICKS are flat and dry on the ground, until they latch onto a human or animal and then they gorge themselves with blood and become fat and full looking.
In any case, it is interesting that the magicians could, on some level, duplicate the sign of turning the water into blood and could, on some level, duplicate the frogs coming up, but they could not, on some level, duplicate the ticks.
Because, HEY, how were they going to transport LIVE ticks under their robes and walk into the palace with them? I wouldn't mind hiding red powder under my robe, nor would I mind hiding some live frogs (ribbit, ribbit) under my robe, but I would mind hiding live TICKS under my robe. This would be a good time to say, HEY, this is the finger of God!
Exodus 8
19 Then the magicians said to Pharaoh, This is the finger of God; and Pharaoh's heart was hardened and he did not listen to them, as the LORD had said he would.
So whose finger were the magicians they been using before this?
love, Eden
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byfaith
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I do believe that Satan has limited supernatural ability.
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Eden
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oneinchrist wrote quote:
He LET them do only so much.
In this quote, He refers to God, but if He let them "only do so much", that does assume some supernatural ability on the part of Satan?
Now, Lucifer-Satan was an anointed cherub angel before he sinned, and we know that one of the angels that came to Lot in Sodom was able to "strike the men at the door with blindness":
Genesis
10 But the men {my note, i.e., the angels} put forth their hand, and pulled Lot into the house to them and shut to the door.
11And they smote the men that were at the door of the house with blindness, both small and great: so that they wearied themselves to find the door.
So the angels can clearly do some stuff that is not normally attributed to the natural, earth-raised, earth=bred human beings.
love, Eden
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byfaith
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quote:
Originally posted by oneinchrist:
How much stuff did they have under their robes?
Maybe they couldnt figure out a way to keep flies alive under their robes.........LOL
You crack me up.
I find it interesting(but not surprising) that God allowed the majicians the ability(power) to increase thier plagues(though not all of them), but not to be able to eliminate them.
With love in Christ, Daniel
I agree, that is what I was trying to say but you said it better ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
He LET them do only so much.
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oneinchrist
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How much stuff did they have under their robes?
Maybe they couldnt figure out a way to keep flies alive under their robes.........LOL
You crack me up.
I find it interesting(but not surprising) that God allowed the majicians the ability(power) to increase thier plagues(though not all of them), but not to be able to eliminate them. I may be wrong about this, but a pattern that may be consistent throughout scripture is that the signs and wonders done by Satan, though they may be authentic signs and wonders, they do not amount to any real benefit to anyone. I have never believed that Satan would be given powers to do good and heal people, but if he was ever given those powers, we would only know by the lies that accompany the healing. That would certainly be a time of deception at its peak.
With love in Christ, Daniel
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Eden
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Carol Swenson wrote to Eden quote:
Do you really want to tell people that Satan has the power to do the same things that only God can do?
There's a big difference between trying to "tell people that Satan has the power to do the same things that only God can do", and trying to find out WHAT the scriptures mean when it says that "the magicians also did so", i.e., they duplicated Moses's miracle in some way, whether by demonic power or by illusory trickery.
And there's a big difference between trying to "tell people that Satan has the power to do the same things that only God can do", and trying to find out WHAT the scriptures mean when by "signs" and "lying wonders":
2 Thessalonians 2:9
Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders.
Here, for instance, we have to parallel verses, one of which concerns the workings of Satan, and one concerns the workings of God:
Strong's Concordance, looking for "signs" and "wonders"
2Thes 2:9 [Even him], whose 3739 coming 3952 is 2076 after 2596 the working 1753 of Satan 4567 with 1722 all 3956 power 1411 and 2532 signs 4592 and 2532 lying 5579 wonders 5059.
Hebrews 2:4 God 2316 also bearing [them] witness 4901 , both 5037 with signs 4592 and 2532 wonders 5059, and 2532 with divers 4164 miracles 1411, and 2532 gifts 3311 of the Holy 40 Ghost 4151, according to 2596 his own 846 will 2308?
So note that in both verses we have the same Greek words:
signs 4592
wonders 5059
But note also that the word "power" in 2Thes.2:9 in the phrase "the working of Satan with all POWER" is the SAME word as "miracles" that the disciples did:
power 1411 and miracles 1411.
So what does that mean, what is Satan capable of? Only "illusory trickery" like putting red powder in a hole dug near the Nile into which fresh water had seeped after the soil had filtered the blood out of it, and then the magicians "only added some red powder" to make it "look" like blood?
Oh, by the way, people in those countries killed their own animals for food so they were VERY familiar with the "consistency and look of blood" and so in addition to "red powder", the magicians would have had to add some "gelatin" too, which of course they were all carrying under their robes when Pharaoh had suddenly called them to the palace to show what THEY could do before this "Moses and Aaron".
What does 2Thessalonians 2:9 mean that this wicked one comes "after the working of Satan with all power 1411 and signs 4592 and lying wonders 5059, with the Holy Spirit using the SAME Greek words as when the Holy Spirit describes what the believing disciples did?
love, Eden
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Carol Swenson
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A non-Christian site wouldn't care about the way scripture is quoted, or the power of God being credited to magicians.
Do you really want to tell people that Satan has the power to do the same things that only God can do?
2 Thessalonians 2:9
Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders.
This verse refers to the future Anti-Christ, not ancient magicians. God will give him the power to do signs and wonders during the Tribulation.
Satan doesn't have any power; the only thing he has is ability, and that is the ability to deceive. There are a lot of people that consider Satan to be an all-powerful being, when, in fact, he's not! He lost whatever power he had as an anointed cherub of God when he was cast out of heaven and fell to Earth (Luke 10:18; Isaiah 14:12-14) He is not equal to God in any way, and he never was! We have to realize that all he is, is a disenfranchised spirit that is seeking those that he might deceive. The Scripture says in 1 Peter 5:8, "Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour." Note that he isn't a roaring lion, he just acts like one! It's important for us to realize that God is the one that has the real dynamic power, not Satan.
Satan could not change a piece of wood into a living snake, or create living frogs. Even one single living cell is complicated beyond belief. Satan can only deceive with lying wonders.
I'm not a student of the magic arts so I can't explain how the magicians did what they did. But I know this much: all living creatures require "the breath of God".
And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being (Genesis 2:7 NKJV).
Even blood contains DNA and so on that Satan could not create.
For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it to you on the altar to make atonement for your souls; for it is the blood by reason of the life that makes atonement. (Leviticus 17:11 NASB)
Scientists have been trying to create life in their labs for years. I imagine Satan would be happy to help them if he could and thus "prove" that evolution is true and creation is false.
But to answer your first question, the Bible tells us the people dug around the Nile to find water. It might be a reasonable guess to say the magicians got enough clear water in this same way (before the other people did) to turn it red and deceive others.
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Eden
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ummm ... did I stumble onto a NON-Christian site or something that I'm being berated to this extent???
love, Eden
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Eden
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WildB wrote to Eden quote:
No it's your responsibility to be correct when posting KJV. Remember this is a Christian BBS.
Your habit can cost souls.
That made me laugh. There is extremely little difference between writing that the magicians "did likewise" and the magicians "did so".
We human beings are not perfect; that's why we need to be saved by Jesus, because we have fallen and will again fall "short of the glory of God". But I don't think any "souls will be lost over making a tiny mistake like that". That is a preposterous exaggeration: "did so" and "did likewise" are virtually the same thing.
And again, each Christian is admonished in the Bible to see for themselves "whether these things be so":
Acts 17
11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.
I myself also should have looked closer at what the KJV actually said; but for some reason I thought it said "did likewise" instead of "did so". Sorry about misstating the mighty KJV, my hero Bible.
love, Eden
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Eden
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Carol Swenson wrote to Eden quote:
Are you saying that Satan can create life?
It seems that Lucifer-Satan has power to do certain signs and wonders, judging from the following verse:
2 Thessalonians 2:9
Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders.
So whether that is Satan "creating life" up to a point, or the powers that God had given Lucifer when he was an anointed cherub, I don't know, but it seems that Lucifer-Satan can do some "signs and wonders" according to 2Thes.2:9.
Now, whether that is "creating life" or "manipulating life that is already created", I don't know, but it is probably the latter instead of the former.
love, Eden
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Eden
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WildB wrote to Eden quote:
Why did you miss quote the verse to begin with?
You're right, my apology. On the other hand, you should always "double-check" to "see if these things be so". It was not intentional on my part, but I did, probably from habit, use the word "did likewise" instead of "did so". Again, did not mean to, and I'm sorry you quoted me instead of the KJV "did so".
love, Eden
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Carol Swenson
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quote:
So you are saying that the magicians again used "legerdemain" or an "illusory trick" just as they used "legerdemain" to turn "water into blood", and Pharaoh and his people who were all watching to see if the magicians could do this when they were called in by Pharaoh "could not tell that the magicians were using 'magic tricks' by maybe pulling a frog or two out from under their robes", is that what you are saying?
Are you saying that Satan can create life?
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oneinchrist
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Hi Eden,
Your question: Why didnt the majicians just turn the blood back into fresh water?
What I think: Because God would not allow it. The amount of power that God allows into the hands of Satan, I am sure, has much to do with Gods overall objective in what He(God) is working to accomplish.
With love in Christ, Daniel
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Eden
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byfaith wrote quote:
I am thinking that the magicians were using demonic influences rather than tricking the eye?
Sure, that's what I've always thought too.
When Lucifer-Satan gets into the Wicked One of the end time, he can apparently do "signs and wonders":
2 Thessalonians 2:9
Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders.
love, Eden
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byfaith
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Maybe God was letting them hang themselves. He knew that they could get themselves into a jam but could not get themselves out of one.
I am thinking that the magicians were using demonic influences rather than tricking the eye?
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Eden
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WildB wrote to Eden quote:
Why do you post your take which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith?
Because this is the Bible Study Forum. As a reader of the Bible, I have a question about this section in Exodus 7 and am bringing it up to the body of Christ in the Bible Study section of this bbs.
WildB continued quote:
No where does it say that they could turn the water back. And the Bible said LIKE WISE not SAME.
The Bible does NOT say that the magicians did LIKEWISE but it says that the magicians DID SO:
Exodus
21 And the fish that was in the river died; and the river stank, and the Egyptians could not drink of the water of the river; and there was blood throughout all the land of Egypt.
22And the magicians of Egypt did so with their enchantments: and Pharaoh's heart was hardened, neither did he hearken unto them; as the LORD had said.
WildB continued quote:
Putting red powdered clay in some vessel of water and pouring it out for all to see to make it to appear LIKE WISEis not the same as SAME.
And then Carol Swenson wrote quote:
WildB is right.
The magicians copied the miracle. But if they had true magical powers, why didn’t they reverse the miracle? That would have shown them to be more powerful than Jehovah and would have endeared them to Pharaoh and the people. The answer, of course, is that they didn’t have the power to reverse what Moses and Aaron did; the magicians achieved their results by legerdemain and not by any supernatural power.
The word "legerdemain" means doing it by "magic tricks" similar to the "magicians" in Las Vegas do on stage, but it is only illusory. Okay, fine.
But then how do you explain the same question with the third miracle, of the frogs:
Exodus 8
5 And the LORD spoke to Moses, Say to Aaron, Stretch forth your hand with your rod over the streams, over the rivers and over the ponds, and cause frogs to come up upon the land of Egypt.
6 And Aaron stretched out his hand over the waters of Egypt; and the frogs came up and covered the land of Egypt.
7 And the magicians did so with their enchantments, and brought up frogs upon the land of Egypt.
So now, did the magicians still achieve their results by legerdemain and not by any supernatural power? Were the Egyptians so stupid that they could not differentiate between real frogs and "legerdemain" frogs?
In v.7 above it says that the magincians did so with their enchantments, not with "legerdemain":
Exodus 8
7 And the magicians did so with their enchantments and brought up frogs upon the land of Egypt.
Strong's Concordance for "enchantments":
Exodus 7:11 Then Pharaoh 6547 also called 7121 the wise men 2450 and the sorcerers 3784 : now the magicians 2748 of Egypt 4714, they also did 6213 in like manner 3651 with their enchantments 3858.
Exodus 7:22 And the magicians 2748 of Egypt 4714 did 6213 so with their enchantments 3909: and Pharaoh's 6547 heart 3820 was hardened 2388 , neither did he hearken 8085 unto them; as the LORD 3068 had said 1696 .
Exodus 8:7 And the magicians 2748 did 6213 so with their enchantments 3909, and brought up 5927 frogs 6854 upon the land 776 of Egypt 4714.
enchantments 3909 lat, a form of 3814 or else participle from 3874; properly, covered, i.e. secret; by implication, incantation; also secrecy or (adverb) covertly: -enchantment, privily, secretly, softly.
enchantments 3858 lahat from 3857; a blaze; also (from the idea of enwrapping) magic (as covert):--flaming, enchantment.
So you are saying that the magicians again used "legerdemain" or an "illusory trick" just as they used "legerdemain" to turn "water into blood", and Pharaoh and his people who were all watching to see if the magicians could do this when they were called in by Pharaoh "could not tell that the magicians were using 'magic tricks' by maybe pulling a frog or two out from under their robes", is that what you are saying?
love, Eden
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Carol Swenson
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WildB is right.
The magicians copied the miracle. But if they had true magical powers, why didn’t they reverse the miracle? That would have shown them to be more powerful than Jehovah and would have endeared them to Pharaoh and the people. The answer, of course, is that they didn’t have the power to reverse what Moses and Aaron did; the magicians achieved their results by legerdemain and not by any supernatural power.
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Eden
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I was reading the Bible Old Testament at Exodus 7 and had the following Bible question ...
Okay, the first miracle that Moses and Aaron did before Pharaoh was throwing down Aaron's rod and it became a serpent.
Then Pharaoh's magiciens threw down their rods and their rods too became serpents, but then Aaron's rod/serpent swallowed up the magiciens' rods/serpents.
Exodus 7
10 And Moses and Aaron went to Pharaoh and they did so as the LORD had commanded: and Aaron cast down his rod before Pharaoh and before his servants, and it became a serpent.
11 But then Pharaoh also called the wise men and the sorcerers; now the magicians of Egypt also did in like manner with their enchantments.
12 For they cast down every man his rod, and they also became serpents: but Aaron's rod swallowed up their rods.
However, in the second miracle, Moses and Aaron turned all the fresh water in Egypt into blood:
Exodus 7
20 And Moses and Aaron did as the LORD commanded; and he lifted up the rod and smote the waters that were in the river, in the sight of Pharaoh and in the sight of his servants; and all the waters that were in the river were turned to blood.
21 And the fish that was in the river died; and the river stank, and the Egyptians could not drink of the water of the river; and there was blood throughout all the land of Egypt.
22 BUT, the magicians of Egypt did likewise with their enchantments: and Pharaoh's heart was hardened, neither did he listen to them, as the LORD had said.
24 Then all the Egyptians digged round about the river for water to drink, for they could not drink of the water of the river.
25 And seven days were fulfilled, after that the LORD had smitten the river.
Okay, my question is, in v.22 it said that the magicians of Egypt did the same thing that Moses and Aaron had done, namely to turn the fresh water into blood.
Therefore, BEFORE the magiciens of Egypt could have turned the fresh water into blood, either Moses and Aaron, or the magiciens themselves, had FIRST turned the blood back into water BEFORE the magicients could "also turn the water into blood", right?
Okay, then my question is, if the magiciens could turn the same fresh water into blood, and could presumably turn the blood back into fresh water, how come that the rivers REMAINED BLOOD FOR SEVEN DAYS if the magiciens could turn the blood back to fresh water or turn the fresh water into blood?
Exodus 7
24 Then all the Egyptians digged round about the river for water to drink, for they could not drink of the water of the river.
25 And seven days were fulfilled, after that the LORD had smitten the river.
My questin is, Why didn't the magiciens just turn the blood back into fresh water?
love, Eden
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