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Topic: total depravity?
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Eden
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posted
Carol Swenson wrote to Eden quote:
There was a debate about it (2 pages) in March 2008. You didn't get involved in that one.
I didn't get involved because I know nothing about Calvin and TULIP and I'm not all that interested in those kind of "theological discussions". I like to keep it simple whenever possible. ![[happyhappy]](graemlins/happyhappy.gif) ![[1zhelp]](graemlins/1zhelp.gif)
But I do believe in "total depravity", not to practise it, but in the principle that we are "totally depraved". But we are not so functionless that we can no longer discern when something "good and gooder" comes along, like "repentance" and "salvation" and "the existence of God":
Matthew 7
11 If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask Him?
love, Eden
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Eden
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posted
Carol Swenson wrote quote:
I don't agree with it either, but that is the definition of the expression "Total Depravity". It's one of the five points (TULIP) of Calvinism.
Actually I heard the term "total depravity" for the first time when botham used it here on this bbs.
Carol Swenson continued quote:
If you don't agree with it, then don't use the expression.
I do think the term "total depravity" is a very good term for the sinful Adamic condition that humans are in, and just because Calvin added things to "total depravity" that I don't agree with (assuming Calvin did that, because I have never read Calvin), that does not mean that the term is now never to be used as a term to describe the human Adamic condition.
Most Christians know NOTHING about Calvin, but they CAN understand the term "total depravity". I like the term, but there are also many others that could be used to describe the same human condition.
love, Eden
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Carol Swenson
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posted
Eden
I am not the one who said it.
Wikipedia
quote:
Total depravity (also called total inability and total corruption) is a theological doctrine that derives from the Augustinian concept of original sin. It is the teaching that, as a consequence of the Fall of Man, every person born into the world is enslaved to the service of sin and, apart from the efficacious or prevenient grace of God, is utterly unable to choose to follow God or choose to accept salvation as it is freely offered.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Total_depravity
Eden wrote
quote:
Well, I don't agree with that. Even in his depraved condition, the soul is quite capable of making decisions, including whether to read the Bible or not. And then it is the spirit words of the Bible which speak, NOT to the soul, but to his spirit of man and stirs his spirit, much to the surprise of the soul.
I don't agree with it either, but that is the definition of the expression "Total Depravity". It's one of the five points (TULIP) of Calvinism.
If you don't agree with it, then don't use the expression.
Posts: 6787 | From: Colorado | Registered: Dec 2007
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MentorsRiddle
Advanced Member
Member # 2108
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posted
I think a good question at this moment would be this:
What is the difference between the body, soul and spirit?
I think once we understand the difference between these things might become a little more clear to us all.
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With you I rise,
In you I sleep,
kneeling down I kiss your feet,
Grace abounds upon me now,
I once was lost
but now I'm found.
The gift of God dwells within,
To this love I now give in.
Posts: 1337 | From: Arkansas | Registered: Sep 2003
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Eden
unregistered
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posted
Carol Swenson wrote quote:
apart from the efficacious or prevenient grace of God, is utterly unable to choose to follow God or choose to accept salvation as it is freely offered.
Well, I don't agree with that. Even in his depraved condition, the soul is quite capable of making decisions, including whether to read the Bible or not. And then it is the spirit words of the Bible which speak, NOT to the soul, but to his spirit of man and stirs his spirit, much to the surprise of the soul.
And as the soul reads more in the Word of God, the soul begins to see how the soul has been wrong to run his own life and the soul repents. The soul is quite capable of repenting, even in his depraved condition.
But the soul is NOT able to communicate with God because that is the function of the spirit of man. The spirit of man needs to be revived (quickened) and the Spirit of God needs to come in, in order to reestablish "a good connection with God". And this God does freely once the soul repents of self-rule.
The soul IS filthy and depraved and totally fallen short of the glory of God, but the soul clearly is still capable of making decisions, even finally one good one, namely to repent of self-rule and to have God run his life again. That he can comprehend, even in his depraved conditon.
So to repeat what Carol Swenson said quote:
apart from the efficacious or prevenient grace of God, is utterly unable to choose to follow God or choose to accept salvation as it is freely offered.
That is nonsense. The soul may be a dumb **** for having gone his own way, but he is still very much alive making decisions, all the time, and he can make the decision to repent too.
love, Eden
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MentorsRiddle
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Member # 2108
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posted
From the moment man is born, he/she is born with a sin nature, which encompases every fiber of their being - from which is no escape; except through Jesus Christ.
Every part of us is corrupt in total.
We must thank God for the grace he has given us through Jesus Christ!
We can call the sin nature what ever we want, but it will still be the sin nature.
Amen?
--------------------
With you I rise,
In you I sleep,
kneeling down I kiss your feet,
Grace abounds upon me now,
I once was lost
but now I'm found.
The gift of God dwells within,
To this love I now give in.
Posts: 1337 | From: Arkansas | Registered: Sep 2003
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Carol Swenson
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Member # 6929
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posted
That's the natural man, not the regenerated man.
Posts: 6787 | From: Colorado | Registered: Dec 2007
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Copper25
Advanced Member
Member # 7464
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posted
When you look at how scripture itself defines a man, it becomes quite evident that a man will NATURALLY, even if given the choose; run toward hell like it was heaven, conforming to and delighting in evil; And will dodge the truth in its purity, as not to be submissive to God.
first, what saith the scripture?
I have just list 10 (of many)
Psa 53:2 God looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, that did seek God.
Psa 53:3 Every one of them is gone back: they are altogether become filthy; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
Look at Noah's day
Gen 6:5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
Look at the Entire book of judges!
Jdg 17:6 In those days there was no king in Israel, but every man did that which was right in his own eyes.
Why would God let this be written in proverbs?
Pro 14:12 There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.
Look at EVERY PROPHET BOOK of the OT.
Jer 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
What does man gravitate toward then?
What is an unregenerated man's way of following God?
Isa 29:13 Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me,
Saying "Lord, Lord" is perferance of many,
but deny with action
Pro 14:2 He that walketh in his uprightness feareth the LORD: but he that is perverse in his ways despiseth him.
note: Look at the people who get rejected by Christ in matthew 7 (where they born again? No.)
Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God : for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him.
Look through the entire bible and this conclusion can be drawn about man.
This is what is evident in the bible.
The natural man can be defined as this:
1) God hating (Romans 8:7), magnatized toward evil in his heart(Jeremiah 17:9), rejects the pure truth of God(1 corinthians 2:14, is fleshly and not spiritual(Romans 8:5-6), Because man is fleshly and not spiritual, they will walk after the deeds of the flesh(mentioned in Galatians 5). Therefore, due to the mentallity of the fleshy carnal man, the ways in which he esteems will be that which he thinks is right in his own eyes (Proverbs 14:12), but are abomination in the sight of God(Luke 16:15), and thus a man's ways will lead ONLY to death(proverbs 14:12)
note: even our faith was given us as a gift(Ephesians 2:8)
important note: Natural man has the spirit of Satan in them. (Ephesians 2:2)
note: There is a reason why God does not leave us with the heart of stone or old spirit.
Eze 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
These are all just biblical points, NOT my own opinion. Look them up, if I have spoken falsly, then correct me (use scripture please). Thank you. I hope this helped in some way.
In Jesus name
Daniel
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Isaiah 40:6) The voice said, Cry. And he said, What shall I cry? All flesh is grass, and all the goodliness thereof is as the flower of the field
Posts: 262 | From: Rochester, NY | Registered: Nov 2008
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Carol Swenson
Admin
Member # 6929
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posted
Total depravity (also called total inability and total corruption) is a theological doctrine that derives from the Augustinian concept of original sin. It is the teaching that, as a consequence of the Fall of Man, every person born into the world is enslaved to the service of sin and, apart from the efficacious or prevenient grace of God, is utterly unable to choose to follow God or choose to accept salvation as it is freely offered.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Total_depravity
Eden, I agree with much of what you are saying here. But, "Total Depravity" is the name of an established formal doctrine, and to use those words without knowing and agreeing to the doctrine could confuse people.
quote:
Once a Christian sees with Paul, O wretched man that I am, who shall deliver me from this body of death", at that point the Christian says to God, "Lord, have mercy on me a sinner", as the publican saw his true nature.
Paul also said
Romans 12:6 - 13 (NLT)
6In his grace, God has given us different gifts for doing certain things well. So if God has given you the ability to prophesy, speak out with as much faith as God has given you. 7If your gift is serving others, serve them well. If you are a teacher, teach well. 8If your gift is to encourage others, be encouraging. If it is giving, give generously. If God has given you leadership ability, take the responsibility seriously. And if you have a gift for showing kindness to others, do it gladly. 9Don’t just pretend to love others. Really love them. Hate what is wrong. Hold tightly to what is good. 10Love each other with genuine affection, and take delight in honoring each other. 11Never be lazy, but work hard and serve the Lord enthusiastically. 12Rejoice in our confident hope. Be patient in trouble, and keep on praying. 13When God’s people are in need, be ready to help them. Always be eager to practice hospitality.
quote:
Therefore the only safe ground is ALWAYS, "Lord, have mercy on me a sinner, and please guide me with YOUR eye".
I like to pray the Psalms and the Beatitudes.
Psalm 150
Praise our God!
His deeds are wonderful,
too marvelous to describe.
Posts: 6787 | From: Colorado | Registered: Dec 2007
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Eden
unregistered
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posted
Botham had asked several times if I believed in "total depravity" and then he brought up the name of Calvin.
I don't know anything about Calvin, but I do think that I believe in the "total depravity" of man since the fall of Adam and Eve.
That is, the Bible says that "in this flesh dwells no good thing":
Romans 7:18
For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh), dwells no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
Psalm 53:3
Everyone of them is gone back: they are altogether become filthy; there is none that does good, no, not one.
Romans 3:10
As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one.
Indeed, I think that the trouble with many Christians is that they know that their "bad" traits are bad and not wanted by God, but they still think that their "good" traits are "not all that bad" and can "still be used for God or by God".
But God has declared ALL our flesh to be bad, even the "so-called good parts" because it is all born corrupt and in sin. We are not sinners because we sin, but we sin because we are constituted, born sinners.
A Christian needs to get to the point where he recognizes that both his bad and so-called good parts are unwanted by God and that God has crucified both parts as the old man to the cross of Jesus:
Romans 6:6
Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Ephesians 4:22
That you put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts.
Once a Christian sees with Paul, O wretched man that I am, who shall deliver me from this body of death", at that point the Christian says to God, "Lord, have mercy on me a sinner", as the publican saw his true nature.
But the pharisee said, "Lord, I thank You that I am not like other people ...":
Luke 18
10 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.
11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank You that I am not as other men are[/b], extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
12 I fast twice in the week and I give tithes of all that I possess.
13 But the publican, standing afar off, would not so much as lift up his eyes to heaven, but he smote himself on his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
14 {Then Jesus said}, I tell you, this man {the publican} went down to his house justified rather than the other {the pharisee}; for everyone who exalts himself shall be abased and he who humbles himself shall be exalted.
The humble publican sees that "no good thing dwells in his flesh", while the pharisee still thinks that "he still has some good parts in him" with which he can please God.
But God says, Not so. All have fallen short of the glory of God. God has crucified ALL flesh descended from Adam and Eve as the old to the cross of Jesus.
The sooner that a Christian recognizes his "total depravity", the sooner the Christian will pray the only right prayer to God, "Lord, in that case, have mercy on me a sinner ... and while You're at it, please guid me with Your eye":
Psalm 32:8
I will instruct you and teach you in the way which you shall go: I will guide you with My eye.
Proverbs 1:3
To receive the instruction of wisdom, justice, and judgment, and equity.
But again, it becomes a snare if I begin to say, "Oh, look at me, look how God is guiding me, more than any other". Therefore the only safe ground is ALWAYS, "Lord, have mercy on me a sinner, and please guide me with YOUR eye".
love, Eden
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