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Author
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Topic: Transformation By Beholding
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Carol Swenson
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Like Christ: In Beholding Him
"But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image, from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord."—2 Cor. 3:18.
Moses had been forty days on the mount in communion with God. When he came down, his face shone with Divine glory. He did not know it himself, but Aaron and the people saw it (Ex. 34:30). It was so evidently God’s glory that Aaron and the people feared to approach him In this we have an image of what takes place in the New Testament. The privilege Moses there alone enjoyed is now the portion of every believer. When we behold the glory of God in Christ, in the glass of the Holy Scriptures, His glory shines upon us, and into us, and fills us, until it shines out from us again. By gazing on His glory the believer is changed through the Spirit into the same image. Beholding Jesus makes us like Him.
It is a law of nature that the eye exercises a mighty influence on mind and character. The education of a child is carried on greatly through the eye; he is moulded very much by the manners and habits of those he sees continually. To form and mould our character the Heavenly Father shows us His Divine glory in the face of Jesus. He does it in the expectation that it will give us great joy to gaze upon it, and because He knows that, gazing on it, we shall be conformed to the same image. Let every one who desires to be like Jesus note how he can attain to it.
Look continually to the Divine glory as seen in Christ. What is the special characteristic of that glory? It is the manifestation of Divine perfection in human form. The chief marks of the image of the Divine glory in Christ are these two: His humiliation and His love.
There is the glory of His humiliation. When you see how the eternal Son emptied Himself and became man, and how as man He humbled Himself as a servant and was obedient even unto the death of the cross , you have seen the highest glory of God. The glory of God’s omnipotence as Creator, and the glory of God’s holiness as King, is not so wonderful as this: the glory of grace which humbled itself as a servant to serve God and man . We must learn to look upon this humiliation as really glory. To be humbled like Christ must be to us glory on earth. It must become in our eyes the most beautiful, the most wonderful, the most desirable thing that can be imagined; a very joy to look upon or to think of. The effect of thus gazing upon it and admiring it will be that you will not be able to conceive of any glory greater than to be and act like Jesus, and will long to humble yourself even as He did . Gazing on Jesus, admiring, and adoring Him, will work in us the same mind that there was in Him, and so we shall be changed into His image.
Inseparable from this is the glory of His love. The humiliation leads you back to the love as its origin and power. It is from love that the humiliation has its beauty. Love is the highest glory of God. But this love was a hidden mystery, until it was manifest in Christ Jesus. It is only in His humanity, in His gentle, compassionate, and loving intercourse with men, with foolish, sinful, hostile men, that the glory of Divine love was first really seen. The soul that gets a glimpse of this glory, and that understands that to love like Christ is alone worthy the name of glory, will long to become like Christ in this. Beholding this glory of the love of God in Christ, he is changed to the same image.
You would be like Christ? Here is the path, Gaze on the glory of God in Him. In Him, that is to say: do not look only to the words and the thoughts and the graces in which His glory is seen, but look to Himself, the living, loving, Christ. Behold Him, look into His very eye, look into His face, as a loving friend, as the living God.
Look to Him in adoration. Bow before Him as God, His glory has an almighty living power to impart itself to us, to pass over into us and to fill us.
Look to Him in faith. Exercise the blessed trust that He is yours, that He has given Himself to you, and that you have a claim to all that is in Him, It is His purpose to work out His image in you. Behold Him with the joyful and certain expectation: the glory that I behold in Him in destined for me. He will give it me: as I gaze and wonder and trust, I become like Christ.
Look to Him with strong desire. Do not yield to the slothfulness of the flesh that is satisfied without the full blessing of conformity to the Lord. Pray God to free you from all carnal resting content with present attainments, and to fill you with the deep unquenchable longing for His glory. Pray most fervently the prayer of Moses, "show me Thy glory." Let nothing discourage you, not even the apparently slow progress you make, but press onwards with ever growing desire after the blessed prospect that God’s Word holds out to you: "We are changed into the same image, from glory to glory."
And as you behold Him, above all, let the look of love not be wanting. Tell Him continually how He has won your heart, how you do love Him, how entirely you belong to Him. Tell Him that to please Him, the beloved One, is your highest, your only joy. Let the bond of love between you and Him be drawn continually closer. Love unites and makes like.
Like Christ! we can be it, we shall be it, each in our measure. The Holy Spirit is the pledge that it shall be. God’s Holy Word has said, "We are changed into the same image, from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord." This is the Spirit that was in Jesus, and through Whom the Divine glory lived and shone on Him. This Spirit is called "The Spirit of Glory." This Spirit is in us as in the Lord Jesus, and it is His work, in our silent adoring, contemplation, to bring over into us and work within us, what we see in our Lord Jesus. Through this Spirit we have already Christ’s life in us, with all the gifts of His grace. But that life must be stirred up and developed: it must grow up, pass into our whole being, take possession of our entire nature, penetrate and pervade it all. We can count on the Spirit to work this in us, if we but yield ourselves to Him and obey Him. As we gaze on Jesus in the Word, He opens our eyes to see the glory of all that Jesus does and is. He makes us willing to be like Him. He strengthens our faith, that what we behold in Jesus can be in us, because Jesus Himself is ours. He works in us unceasingly the life of abiding in Christ, a wholehearted union and communion with Him. He does according to the promise: "The Spirit shall glorify me: for He shall take of mine and shall show it unto you." We are changed into the image on which we gaze, from glory to glory, as by the Spirit of the Lord. Let us only understand, that the fulness of the Spirit is given to us, and that he who believingly surrenders himself to be filled with Him, will experience how gloriously He accomplishes His work of stamping on our souls and lives the image and likeness of Christ.
Brother! beholding Jesus and His glory, you can confidently expect to become like Him: only trust yourself in quietness and restfulness of soul to the leading of the Spirit. "The Spirit of glory rests upon you." Gaze on and adore the glory of God in Christ; you will be changed with Divine power from glory to glory; in the power of the Holy Ghost the mighty transformation will be wrought by which your desires will be fulfilled, and like Christ will be the blessed God-given experience of your life.
O my Lord! I do thank Thee for the glorious assurance that while I am engaged with Thee, in my work of beholding Thy glory, the Holy Spirit is engaged with me, in His work of changing me into that image, and of laying of Thy glory on me.
Lord! grant me to behold Thy glory aright, Moses had been forty days with Thee when Thy glory shone upon Him. I acknowledge that my communion with Thee has been too short and passing, that I have taken too little time to come under the full impression of what Thine image is. Lord! teach me this. Draw me in these my meditations too, to surrender myself to contemplate and adore, until my soul at every line of that image may exclaim: This is glorious! this is the glory of God! O my God, show me Thy glory.
And strengthen my faith, blessed Lord! that, even when I am not conscious of any special experience, the Holy Spirit will do His work. Moses knew not that his face shone. Lord! keep me from looking at self: May I be so taken up only with Thee as to forget and lose myself in Thee. Lord I it is he who is dead to self who lives in Thee.
O my Lord, as often as I gaze upon Thine image and Thine example, I would do it in the faith, that Thy Holy Spirit will fill me, will take entire possession of me, and so work Thy likeness in me, that the world may see in me somewhat of Thy glory. In this faith I will venture to take Thy precious word, "FROM GLORY TO GLORY," as my watchword, to be to me the promise of a grace that grows richer every day, of a blessing that is ever ready to surpass itself, and to make what has been given only the pledge of the better that is to come. Precious Saviour! gazing on Thee it shall indeed be so, "From glory to glory." Amen.
http://www.victoryoversin.com/murray/like/lc20.htm
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Carol Swenson
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A primary attack against divine Bible origin is that the books of the New Testament were agreed upon (canonized) by men hundreds of years after the books were written. Actually, the fathers of the early Christian church reveal that most of the New Testament books were accepted as scripture almost immediately. For instance, in 2 Peter 3:16, the writer takes for granted that Paul's letters were already considered inspired scripture on the same level as the Old Testament. In 1Timothy 5:18, Paul joins an Old Testament reference and a New Testament reference and calls them both Scripture. The need for official canonization of the New Testament scriptures only came about because of certain heresies that were being spread throughout the church starting in the mid to late second century. For instance, Marcion created his own religion by only teaching from ten of Paul's letters and certain portions of Luke. In addition, the Gnostics, especially in Alexandria, were introducing new "secrets" to the standard Christian doctrine, including new gospel accounts altogether.
For the church leaders in the mid second century, the four Gospels were baseline authority in their teachings. In about 170 AD, Irenaeus cited 23 of the 27 New Testament books, omitting only Philemon, James, 2 Peter and 3 John. The Muratorian fragment, written about the same time, attests to the widespread use of all the New Testament books except Hebrews, James, 1 Peter and 2 Peter. However, other church fathers had already cited those omitted books in various writings defending against Gnostic doctrines. The Codex Barococcio from 206 AD includes 64 of the 66 books of today's Bible. Esther and Revelation were omitted, but they had already been declared as inspired scripture by Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, Clement, Tertullian and the Muratorian Canon. In 230 AD, Origen declared that all Christians acknowledged as scripture the four Gospels, Acts, the epistles of Paul, 1 Peter, 1 John and Revelation.
By the early 300's, all of the New Testament books were being used in the mainstream church body. In 367 AD, Athanasius formally circulated the Easter Letter that listed all 27 books as canonical. The Synod of Hippo (393 AD) and the third Synod of Carthage (397 AD) also recognized these 27 books as canonical. In addition, during this time, the highly influential church fathers, Jerome (340-420 AD) and Augustine (354-430 AD) published their lists of 27 books completing the New Testament.
It's important to remember that the canon of the New Testament was not the result of any pronouncement by any official of the church or any organizational body. Rather, the canon was determined by the authoritative use of these books right from the start by the rapidly expanding church of the first and second centuries. The New Testament canon was merely a process of formal recognition of already recognized scripture, to defend against the various forms of Gnosticism and heresy that were starting to creep throughout the ever-expanding church.
http://www.allabouttruth.org/bible-origin.htm
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Aaron
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quote:
Originally posted by Eden:
They were not only bonded with the terrestial seats of power for the sake of power and influence, but also for the preservation of the gospel and its manuscripts. It was often wise and expedient to join with those who had the power and influence, lest one be destroyed and the gospel manuscripts were destroyed along with them.
It was often THANKS TO the influential seats of power that the gospel was preserved and advanced and promoted and distributed, where it otherwise would not have.
love, Eden
They had the scriptures. They should have known that God would always preserve His people no matter what the cost. Even in the midst of the angel of death His people were preserved. Even when the world's super power chased them with their military might the people were preserved. Saved from battle; saved from slavery; even saved from their own debauchery. They should have known.
Indeed they knew, but they caved to the allure of political influence and abandoned their first call to glorify the King of kings. Besides, God's people had already conquered the Romans when the offer was made: Christians were the largest, homogeneous group of people in the entire empire and THAT was accomplished through decades of rampant and legalized persecution. The gospel had won and was advancing in the world.
Aaron
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TB125
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Aaron,
You state: quote:
To address the downward slide a "new" doctrine became preeminent among the believers: Sola Scriptura. But, as they sought to adjudicate the abuses of authority through this doctrine they abandoned the sinew of the Corpis Christi; the Holy Spirit. Fractures occurred and divisions multiplied.
Life in Christ has always, first, been about being born from above and being led by the Spirit of God. Everything else is secondary.
I agree! The Holy Spirit has always been the author and the confirming authority for God's truth. His inspiring authority may be reflected in the written and printed documents of Scripture, but these documents and their words don't have any divine authority apart from the Holy Spirit. They may only be personal opinions or traditional and cultural translations without that confirming authority. We will do well to keep this basic point in mind as we continue to teach and to interpret God's truth. Thanks for your post.
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Bob
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Eden
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Aaron wrote quote:
Not doubt the early church fathers were corrupted when they bonded with the terrestrial seats of governance for the sake of power and influence.
They were not only bonded with the terrestial seats of power for the sake of power and influence, but also for the preservation of the gospel and its manuscripts. It was often wise and expedient to join with those who had the power and influence, lest one be destroyed and the gospel manuscripts were destroyed along with them.
It was often THANKS TO the influential seats of power that the gospel was preserved and advanced and promoted and distributed, where it otherwise would not have.
love, Eden
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Aaron
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quote:
so the Word of God as revealed in scripture must remain the ultimate source of information and inspiration for the believer...
This is a contemporary thought not one that attended Paul when he wrote the following:
"But I make known to you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached by me is not according to man. For I neither received it from man, nor was I taught it, but it came through the revelation of Jesus Christ."
Paul understood that the One who had ultimate authority was the Holy Spirit, who received it from Jesus Christ, who received it from the Father. The Bible, itself, testifies of this.
Not doubt the early church fathers were corrupted when they bonded with the terrestrial seats of governance for the sake of power and influence. Grand injustices and debauchery followed and the people suffered. To address the downward slide a "new" doctrine became preeminent among the believers: Sola Scriptura. But, as they sought to adjudicate the abuses of authority through this doctrine they abandoned the sinew of the Corpis Christi; the Holy Spirit. Fractures occurred and divisions multiplied.
Life in Christ has always, first, been about being born from above and being led by the Spirit of God. Everything else is secondary. And while some may argue that the scriptures were given to us so that we could clearly understand, together, what God has said I will point them to the 3500+ denominations who cannot agree.
But the sons of God are being revealed. And they are the "tracts" distributed by the Holy Spirit. For they are the "book" written by Christ with the pen of the Holy Spirit (2Cor 3:3). They do not need translated or handled by scholars. They do not need smuggled into China or Cuba for God has written on the hearts of people from all tribes, tongues, and nations. Their children will be their "reprintings" as generations gather to hear the call of the Lord Jesus Christ.
Sola Scriptura, not being from the vine, was dead from the beginning. Christ, however, is eternal and He remains as will all of those who are found in Him.
Love,
Aaron
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Carol Swenson
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quote:
Originally posted by botham:
As much as we should desire to be emptied of 'self' and invite God's Holy Spirit to direct our path, the soul thus inspired remains fallible while inhabiting this carnal God fearing body and so the Word of God as revealed in scripture must remain the ultimate source of information and inspiration for the believer for the Word remains forever. God bless, Botham
AMEN! "...the Word of God as revealed in scripture..." Amen. Amen. Amen!
Posts: 6787 | From: Colorado | Registered: Dec 2007
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Eden
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botham wrote quote:
As much as we should desire to be emptied of 'self' and invite God's Holy Spirit to direct our path, the soul thus inspired remains fallible while inhabiting this carnal God fearing body and so the Word of God as revealed in scripture must remain the ultimate source of information and inspiration for the believer for the Word remains forever.
Self or the flesh is definitely a problem for most of us. There have however been some believers who were "really filled with the Spirit":
Acts 6:5
... they chose Stephen, a man full of faith and full of the Holy Spirit ...
Acts 8:39
And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught Philip away, that the eunuch saw him no more ...
Acts 6:3
Wherefore, brethren, look out among yourselves 7 men of honest report and full of the Holy Spirit and wisdom, whom we may appoint over this business.
Acts 6:15
And all that sat in the council, looking stedfastly on him, saw his face as it had been the face of an angel.
It can clearly be done; however, all the above men WERE close to the actual events when Jesus walked on earth, so perhaps it was easier then, by having personally seen or heard about Jesus Himself, perhaps it was easier THEN to be "full of the Holy Spirit" than it may be from "reading about the events in the Bible".
Personally I don't know ANYONE in my life thus far who is "full of the Holy Spirit" in the way that they seemed to be "full of the Holy Spirit" in the book of Acts, except perhaps Kathryn Kuhlman ... nor do I count myself among that blessed group ... ("but you already knew that").
love, Eden
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botham
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As much as we should desire to be emptied of 'self' and invite God's Holy Spirit to direct our path, the soul thus inspired remains fallible while inhabiting this carnal God fearing body and so the Word of God as revealed in scripture must remain the ultimate source of information and inspiration for the believer for the Word remains forever. God bless, Botham
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Eden
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Bible study is an important part of Christian life. It is the beginning point for any sinner to first hear and read about salvation and about the many other wonderful things that God has done for us and has planned for us.
Jesus Himself expounded to them "from the scriptures":
Luke 24:27
And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.
Luke 24:32
And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while He talked with us by the way, and while He opened to us the scriptures?
But if that's all Jesus had ever done, He would have just been "someone who expounded the scriptures".
And Paul likewise "taught them out of the scriptures":
Acts 17:2
And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures,
And I myself, when I wrote the above post, have used plenty of scriptures to "make my points", just as Paul did.
But the purpose of all this "expounding of the scriptures" is to find what the scriptures were written for: to find the Living God and to find His Son Jesus, and to hear that God has given us the Holy Spirit, and to hear about all the other wonderful things that God will yet do for us.
The Bible directs us to these things, and the Bible also already contains "many wonderful direct words from God" which are wonderful to learn about through regular Bible reading; for it is indeed impossible to retain all that the Bible says in "just one reading".
I can still read the Bible in any given spot and find myself saying, "Wow, it says that in there, how come I had not seen that before?".
The Bible is already a "living Word testitomy of our Living God". But our Living God is much greater than the Bible, as the Apostle John also said:
Even the Bible says that what is written in the Word of God is but a tiny part of what "Jesus said and did":
John 21:25
And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen.
Much of the Bible directs us to implement a living relationship with the Living God because God wants to "instruct us personally and guide our life personally", just as God did with Adam and Eve before they sinned:
Isaiah 54:13
And all your children shall be taught of the LORD; and great shall be the peace of your children.
Bible reading is a part of "being taught"; but the personal day-to-day guidance by God through the Holy Spirit is a much bigger part that God wants to do in each believer's life than reading the Bible.
Because Bible reading can be done at home, and no one else in the outside world will necessarily see that "so and so is reading the Bible right now at home".
But when I step outside my house, I need to be guided by the Holy Spirit to be "driven by the Holy Spirit" to where I should go next and to be "counselled by the Holy Spirit" as to what I should say or how to smile, to the cashier, to the person on the street, to anyone, in all moments I need God to show me what I should do next because God can see everything from above and I cannot.
That is the "living relationship with God" to which the Bible points us; if we miss that, we have missed the very point of the Bible, to direct us to this "living relationship".
love, Eden
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TB125
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Carol,
I'm not arguing for an end to the study of the Bible but only against making it the "final" authority or author of God's revelation and his wise words.
I know that Jesus was "well versed in scripture", but these were the writings of "the Law" by Moses, the prophets and historians, and the poets and other writers of Israel, but he didn't write more documents to add to these. Through the Spirit he tried to demonstrate God's glory and love and to teach the righteousness of God's will beyond that which was being taught by the scribes and the Pharisees. Paul, who was a Pharisee, had to go through an extensive experience of retraining before he could understand and explain God's glory in Jesus to his Jewish and gentile audiences. And he received a lot of opposition from his Jewish critics in spite of his inspired efforts to do this. I don't know "all this" from my study of the Bible, but the Lord continues to try to teach me through my experiences with his indwelling Spirit, my personal struggles of faithful service, and my meditation on his word. I'll stop arguing for my point on this thread and continue to look for words of encouragement on this forum and pray for God's blessing on everyone who comes here. I appreciate your posts and insights Carol. I guess that we just have a misunderstanding about this matter. I'm sorry about that.
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Bob
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botham
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Thanks all for the excellent comments'
Bob has a good point. To me it serves no great purpose to post a long list of scriptures interlaced with what is often other peoples' views and commentary. For instance, much as Watchman Nee and writers from other established church groups with a particular emphasis on this or that doctrine make excellent observations, it would be better to hear more about the individual posters' ideas on a topic, based on their overall impressions as a believer.
It is unquestionable, based on any decent scrutiny of scripture, that God wants 'all' of our life. For instance if I hold back my hormone driven hidden sexual thoughts as something that I can't seem to give up, will God trust me with a full measure of His Spirit for other tasks He needs me to do? I don't think so. As Eden might say, this powerful soul level part of our life also has to be returned to God. Even that part God? Yes, even that part my child.
That's just an example since we could name many and sundry aspect of pride and so forth that we hold back in case we want to sojourn a while with a tiny morsal of 'harmless' sin. Maybe a binge of anger at a deserving family member or the taking in of a worldly movie for the fabulous special effects, not the decidedly sinful plot.
So the scriptures remain, written with dry ink on dead processed trees or myteriously available on several technologies, ready to illuminate the darkest soul that truly searches, with a radiance that fosters a totally new understanding and meaning to life itself.
But I would rather read through reams of scriptrue supporting someone's point than put a damper on the desire to comment. Each believer brings their unique perspective and in support of Bob's point, I really get more out the discussions when the poster gives their personal expiences.
Let me close by saying that I have read more scripture here than I ever have before, being one who finds it difficult to focus, to my benefit. So thank you and God bless, Botham
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Carol Swenson
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And you know all this from studying the Bible.
Jesus was well versed in scripture too. So was Paul.
I can't agree with anyone who discourages Bible study.
On your own website you write
quote:
The Bible is the Word of God. If you are at all open in your attitude to the truth of its message, God’s Holy Spirit will help you to understand its statements and to apply their wisdom and blessings in your life. May God guide and bless you in your study of his written Word.
http://christianityetc.org/bible.php
The name of this board is:
Bible Topics & Study
General Bible Discussions
Not Revival. I'm sure there is a forum that is for discussions on revivals. Try this one http://smithworks.org/revival/
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TB125
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Carol,
Jesus did not instruct his disciples or us to worship him or to see him as quote:
the Jesus of the Bible
, but to worship him and to see him as the one who came from God, the "Father". His extensive teaching regarding this matter is contained in much of his final remarks to his disciples before he was arrested (see John 14-17, particularly 17:23 & 25 where he clearly states that he wants the lives of the disciples "to let the world know that you (the Father) sent me". His concern is not for the correctness of their biblical understanding of his revelation, but for their spiritual unity with him and the Father that they and the world may know who he is and from where he came. In his teaching he was urging them to depend upon the Holy Spirit for the truth of God's revelation in him and not that of any other spirit or written word. This is the point of Paul's warning that you cite from 1 Timothy 4:1: quote:
deceptive spirits and teachings that come from demons.
The Spirit's revelation of Jesus is much bigger than that of the Bible! So much of the world's confusion about Jesus is due to the disunity of his "disciples" and their persistent historic debates about biblical statements about him and the Father so God's glory is veiled or sometimes distorted by "deceptive spirits".
This is a time for a very clear witness to the glory of God, the Father, in Jesus. And this witness will be seen in the transformed lives of sinners not in the writings of biblical teachers and scholars in spite of their expertise in biblical scholarship and interpretation. We need a spiritual revival not more Bible studies in our world!
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Bob
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Carol Swenson
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Thank you TB125. I know the Holy Spirit illuminates scripture for us, and I know we must be filled with the Holy Spirit to bear fruit and reflect the glory of the Lord.
My concern is that there are people who profess to worship our Lord Jesus Christ, but they do not worship the Jesus of the Bible. They have a different Jesus.
I wish to stress the importance that it is the Jesus of the Bible we are to contemplate and worship. The enemy will use every kind of trickery to lead us astray, and to set aside the Bible as a "manual" we no longer need sounds like a dangerous thing to do.
1 Timothy 4:1 (NLT)
Now the Holy Spirit tells us clearly that in the last times some will turn away from the true faith; they will follow deceptive spirits and teachings that come from demons.
Therefore...
quote:
The Christian life must include contemplation and meditation upon
the glory of the Lord as revealed by the Spirit through the apostles and writers of the New Testament
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TB125
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Carol, You ask me a question and to clarify my perspective regarding Bible study in this statement: quote:
What does this mean to you?
"But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the
glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from
glory to glory, just as by the Spirit of the Lord. (2 Cor 3:18)
Your answer above is not clear about the importance of Bible study in our lives.
It is the indwelling presence of the Spirit that removes the "veil" from the "hearts" of individuals so that they can see God's glory in Jesus. And this glory is not in words written in ink, even the inspired words of Moses (see vs 15), but in the reflection of Jesus "likeness" in the lives of those who are "being transformed" by the Spirit "into his likeness" (vs 18).
Bible study is important in our lives, in the life of every "disciple" (which means "learner"). But such Bible study must be done through the indwelling guidance and teaching of the Holy Spirit and not from a base of human knowledge or even extensive biblical expertise.
So many of the discussion on this Forum involve the stringing together of passages from the Bible in "proof-texting" arguments that only "veil" God's glory because they don't include the personal testimony of the poster regarding what Jesus has done in his or her life. I would like to see us sharing more personal testimonies on this Forum, providing each other with more words of encouragement regarding God's ongoing work of sanctification in our lives rather than endless debates and discussions regarding OSAS or the time-line of events at the "end".
Does this clarify my perspective on Bible study? If not, come back with more questions.
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Bob
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TB125
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Carol,
I agree with your statement that quote:
The Holy Spirit leads us to the Holy Bible, not away from it.
But it might be helpful in this discussion to recognize and to understand that the Holy Spirit is the author, the source of the divine truth that has been recorded by "inspired" writers. Apart from that inspiring authorizing activity the words of the Bible are only those of human prophets, teachers, and historians. Jesus did not promise his disciples that he would leave them with a book, but that he would leave them with a "Counselor" who would "guide" them and us "into all truth" (John 16:7, 13). In fact he refers to this divine person as the "Spirit of truth" (John 16:13). The revelation of God's glory and truth, including that in Jesus, always comes from the Spirit. The Bible is a literary record of God's revelation. It is not God's primary personal agent of his revelation. Paul described the difference between the written message or "letter" about Christ in "ink" and the "letter" that comes from the personal presence of the "Spirit" (see 2 Corinthians 3:3). It was the personal presence of the Spirit in the lives of transformed sinners that revealed God's glory in Jesus Christ and not the wisdom of Paul's writings that established and strengthen the early church. We must be more than guided by the Holy Spirit in our understanding of the Bible. We must be filled with the Spirit in order to reflect God's glory in Jesus. I hope that you understand my point. It is basic to a lot of our discussions in this Forum.
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Bob
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Carol Swenson
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Eden wrote:
quote:
But let's say that I have bought a BMW and in the BMW manual I read about all the wonderful things that are in this "new car". But unless I actually "start driving" this new car, I'll just know "about" the new car but I will "not experience" the new car.
It is the same with the Written Word of God and the Living Word of God. Now that we have read the Written Word of God and have understood from the Written Word of God that I "have the Holy Spirit in me", and that "the Resurrected Jesus is in heaven" and that "Jesus is the Head of the body of Christ" and that God Jesus wants to "instruct me and teach me and guide me with HIS eye", unless I actually start to LET HIM DO THAT, I will never experience what God has given me as a "new creature".
God Jesus as the Head of the Church now wants to communicate DIRECTLY with His "new creatures" by way of the Holy Spirit. The Written Word of God was and is, at it were, our Manual, but now that we have "read the Manual", now it is time to put into practice "what the Manual told us to do", namely to "walk after the Spirit" and "counsel of God Who is in heaven", by STOPPING leaning on our own understanding:
I agree that we must do what the Bible says, not just read about it, and I agree that we are guided by the Holy Spirit. But to compare the Holy Bible, the Word of God, to a car manual?
The Holy Spirit leads us to the Holy Bible, not away from it. We should continue to read the Bible everyday.
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Eden
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Wiersbe wrote, as posted by Carol Swenson, quote:
“But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.” 2 Cor. 3:18
... You and I can share the image of Jesus Christ and go “from glory to glory” through the ministry of the Spirit of God!
... Through Jesus Christ, we may enter into the very holy of holies (Heb. 10:19-20)—and we don’t have to climb a mountain!
... As we look into God’s Word and see God’s Son, the Spirit transforms us into the very image of God.
2 Corinthians 3
18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.
I have said this before, but it is Jesus in us through the Spirit who is the glory of God. It is not that WE are changed but when WE get out of the way, meaning, we no longer mind the things of the flesh or lean on our own understanding, and begin instead to "walk after the Spirit", then we in effect "diminish" while Jesus in us increases.
The more we allow the Resurrected Jesus in heaven to teach us and guide us on what to do next, the more it is going to LOOK LIKE JESUS is Himself in us instead of us being in us. This is the meaning of:
1 Corinthians 15
10 But by the grace of God I am what I am; and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I labored more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.
Galatians 2:20
I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
When we diminish, meaning we stop leaning on our own understanding, and instead we begin to "walk after the Spirit" and "listen to the Spirit which is now given to us", the more "Jesus will be as if He Himself is in us".
Let's say for instance that I love what Carol Swenson says all the time, so therefore I simply repeat what Carol Swenson has said,not because I can't think for myself, but because what Carol Swenson can think is better.
And what is the result of that? People would say, "You remind me so much of Carol Swenson", and it is as there is a "second" Carol Swenson walking around, when in fact it is ME.
That's how it is with Jesus who is the head of the body of the church. If, instead of what I can think to say or do, if I instead say and do what Jesus counseled me from heaven to do and say at any given moment, then it is just "as if there is a second Jesus walking around", when in fact it is ME.
And because Jesus Himself is the glory of God, it is Jesus's glory which "projects and acts through me and in me". It is not that Iacquire that glory myself, but because Jesus is the glory of God, it "may look like it is ME who has acquired the glory" but it is Jesus Himself who, being the glory, it remains His glory at all times.
So let's see again what the scripture said:
2 Corinthians 3
18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.
When we walk after the Spirit, the glory of the Lord shines through us and in us, "as in a glass or mirror". That is, it almost looks as if "Jesus's glory is OUR glory", but it is not:
Galatians 2:20
I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ lives in me ...
In the article, Wiersbe also said: quote:
... As we look into God’s Word and see God’s Son, the Spirit transforms us into the very image of God.
[/quote]The Written Word of God directs us to the Living Word of God, i.e., to the Resurrected Jesus in heaven. He is the Living Word of God. We have the Spirit of God so that Jesus can communicate with us from heaven:
1 Corinthians 2:10
But God has revealed them to us by His Spirit: for the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God.
It is not so much that the Spirit of God reveals things to us from the WRITTEN Word of God, as it is that the WRITTEN Word of God reveals to us that God has given us the Spirit of God so that we can literally become the children of God:
Romans 8:16
The Spirit itself bears witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God.
That is, now that God's manual, the Written Word of God, has shown us what we are in Christ and what we have received in Christ, now God wants to communicate with each member of the body of Christ DIRECTLY from heaven BY the Holy Spirit which has been given to all believers.
God wants to bring ALL members of the body of Christ to the point where NONE of the members of the body of Christ leans on his own understanding anymore, so that the Resurrected Jesus, as Head of the body of Christ, can direct, instruct, teach, and guide each member of the body of Christ from heaven with HIS eye.
Right now a LOT of Christians are "still leaning on their own understanding" and are NOT walking after the Spirit, and as a result, Jesus, the Head of the body of Christ, CANNOT communicate with them, except somewhat through the Written Word of God.
But God Jesus, the Living Word of God who is now in heaven, wants to communicate with all Christians directly through the Spirit of God which is in us.
The Written Word of God gets a sinner STARTED with God. The sinner becomes saved as the spirit words of the Written Word of God speak to his spirit of man:
John 6:63
... the words that I speak to you, they are spirit, and they are life.
In the Written Word of God we learn about "the mind of the flesh" and about the "mind of the Spirit", and we learn that we have "received the Spirit of God" when we were saved, and so on.
But let's say that I have bought a BMW and in the BMW manual I read about all the wonderful things that are in this "new car". But unless I actually "start driving" this new car, I'll just know "about" the new car but I will "not experience" the new car.
It is the same with the Written Word of God and the Living Word of God. Now that we have read the Written Word of God and have understood from the Written Word of God that I "have the Holy Spirit in me", and that "the Resurrected Jesus is in heaven" and that "Jesus is the Head of the body of Christ" and that God Jesus wants to "instruct me and teach me and guide me with HIS eye", unless I actually start to LET HIM DO THAT, I will never experience what God has given me as a "new creature".
God Jesus as the Head of the Church now wants to communicate DIRECTLY with His "new creatures" by way of the Holy Spirit. The Written Word of God was and is, at it were, our Manual, but now that we have "read the Manual", now it is time to put into practice "what the Manual told us to do", namely to "walk after the Spirit" and "counsel of God Who is in heaven", by STOPPING leaning on our own understanding:
Romans 8:1
There is therefore now no condemnation to them who are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Romans 8:4
That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
God wants us to do what Jesus as the Son of man did when Jesus was on earth, namely, to exclusively do and say what we hear Jesus tell us to do and say by the Spirit of God which has been given to us.
This is a lot more vibrant life than merely reading the Written Word of God; it is being in a living moment-to-moment relationship with the Living Word of God, who is the Resurrected Jesus in heaven who wants to guide us with HIS eye because HE can see everything, while we earthlings can only "see in part" what's going on through our senses.
Because Jesus in heaven can see everything that is occurring on earth, the constant counsel of Jesus to each member of His body is imperative in order for us to go exactly and say exactly what Jesus wants us to say and do next, at any given moment. That is the meaning of Paul saying, "I live, yet not but Christ who lives in me".
Far too many Christians only read the Written Word of God or hear praching from the Written Word of God, but they wholly ignore what the Living Word of God in heaven wants to do for and with them, from heaven:
Psalm 42:2
My soul thirsts for God, for the living God; when shall I come and appear before God?
1 Timothy 4:10
For therefore we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those who believe.
One last thing ... do you remember ho the Lord Jesus will say, "I never knew You"?
Matthew 7:21
Not everyone that says to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven.
Luke 6:46
And why do you call Me, Lord, Lord, but do not do the things which I say?
Matthew 7:23
Then I will profess to them, I never knew you depart from Me, you who work iniquity.
To me these are all the Christians who even now continue to "lean on their own understanding" even after they were saved, and thus rightly can the Lord Jesus say to them, "I never knew you" because "you never came to My Spirit to listen to My Counsel from heaven" and "you worked iniquity" because ALL who "lean on their own understanding, BY ITS VERY ADAMIC NATURE, "work iniquity":
Proverbs 1:31
Therefore shall they eat of the fruit of their own way, and be filled with their own devices.
Proverbs 19:21
There are many devices in a man's heart; nevertheless the counsel of the LORD, that shall stand.
Let us therefore "walk after the Spirit" and no longer "after the flesh", lest the Lord also has to say to US, "I never knew you, you who work iniquity by leaning on your own understanding".
love, Eden
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Carol Swenson
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“But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.” 2 Cor. 3:18
This verse is the climax of the chapter, and it presents a truth so exciting that I marvel so many believers have missed it—or ignored it. You and I can share the image of Jesus Christ and go “from glory to glory” through the ministry of the Spirit of God!
Under the Old Covenant, only Moses ascended the mountain and had fellowship with God; but under the New Covenant, all believers have the privilege of communion with Him. Through Jesus Christ, we may enter into the very holy of holies (Heb. 10:19-20)—and we don’t have to climb a mountain!
The “mirror” is a symbol of the Word of God (James 1:22-25). As we look into God’s Word and see God’s Son, the Spirit transforms us into the very image of God. It is important, however, that we hide nothing from God. We must be open and honest with Him and not “wear a veil.”
The word translated changed is the same word translated transfigured in the accounts of our Lord’s transfiguration (Matt. 17; Mark 9). It describes a change on the outside that comes from the inside. Our English word metamorphosis is a transliteration of this Greek word. Metamorphosis describes the process that changes an insect from a larva into a pupa and then into a mature insect. The changes come from within.
Moses reflected the glory of God, but you and I may radiate the glory of God. When we meditate on God’s Word and in it see God’s Son, then the Spirit transforms us! We become more like the Lord Jesus Christ as we grow “from glory to glory.” This wonderful process cannot be achieved by keeping the Law. The glory of the Law faded away, but the glory of God’s grace continues to increase in our lives.
Keep in mind that Paul was contrasting, not only the Old Covenant with the New, but also the Old Covenant ministry with the ministry of grace. The goal of Old Covenant ministry is obedience to an external standard, but this obedience cannot change human character. The goal of New Covenant ministry is likeness to Jesus Christ. Law can bring us to Christ (Gal. 3:24), but only grace can make us like Christ. Legalistic preachers and teachers may get their listeners to conform to some standard, but they can never transform them to be like the Son of God.
The means for Old Covenant ministry is the Law, but the means for New Covenant ministry is the Spirit of God using the Word of God. (By “the Law” I do not mean the Old Testament, but rather the whole legal system given by Moses. Certainly, the Spirit can use both the Old and New Testaments to reveal Jesus Christ to us.) Since the Holy Spirit wrote the Word, He can teach it to us. Even more, because the Spirit lives in us, He can enable us to obey the Word from our hearts. This is not legal obedience, born of fear, but filial obedience born of love.
Finally, the result of Old Covenant ministry is bondage; but the result of New Covenant ministry is freedom in the Spirit. Legalism keeps a person immature and immature people must live by rules and regulations (see Gal. 4:1-7). God wants His children to obey, not because of an external code (the Law), but because of internal character. Christians do not live under the Law, but this does not mean that we are lawless! The Spirit of God writes the Word of God on our hearts, and we obey our Father because of the new life He has given us within.
The lure of legalism is still with us. False cults prey on professed Christians and church members, as did the Judaizers in Paul’s day. We must learn to recognize false cults and reject their teachings. But there are also Gospel-preaching churches that have legalistic tendencies and keep their members immature, guilty, and afraid. They spend a great deal of time dealing with the externals, and they neglect the cultivation of the inner life. They exalt standards and they denounce sin, but they fail to magnify the Lord Jesus Christ. Sad to say, in some New Testament churches we have an Old Testament ministry.
Paul has now explained two aspects of his own ministry: it is triumphant (2 Cor. 1-2) and it is glorious (2 Cor. 3). The two go together: “Therefore seeing we have this [kind of] ministry, as we have received mercy, we faint not” (2 Cor. 4:1).
When your ministry involves the glory of God—you cannot quit!
(Wiersbe)
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Eden
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Carol Swenson wrote to Eden quote:
Please, would you call me just "Carol"?
Sorry, I can't. I have a strict rule to use people's Username exactly as it is. I could only call you "Carol" if you officially change your Username to "Carol".
One reason is that occasionally some members, I remember one member in particular, Michael Harrison, who would deliberately distort other members' Username to belittle them, so I have kept to a strict rule of addressing all members by their registered Username, no exceptions. Thanks for understanding.
love, Eden
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Eden
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hello, Carol Swenson, you wrote quote:
Eden is right when he says we are guided by the Holy Spirit. But, we are being progressively sanctified during this lifetime. We submit to the Lord, yes, but we don't just cease to exist as He takes over the way Eden seems to be saying.
I'm am not at all saying that we cease to exist when we submit to the Lord. The organs of our soul are still there, just as functional as ever. At any one time, we can choose to do things again the old way that we learned from Adam and Eve (i.e., to run our own lives from the soul level without input from our spirit), OR we can choose to "listen to what God is saying to us through the Spirit of God which has been given to those who believe".
I am confident that Jesus GAVE us the Spirit of God SO THAT the Resurrected Jesus who is in heaven CAN COMMUNICATE WITH US. Our old spirit of man was so feeble and "dead in its trespasses" that God needed to put the brandnew Spirit of God inside of us, SO THAT the Resurrected Jesus who is in heaven CAN communicate with us and CAN convey His moment-to-moment Counsel to us.
1 Corinthians 2
10 But God has revealed them to us by His Spirit; for the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God.
11 For what man knows the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? Even so the things of God knows no man, but the Spirit of God.
But we are so accustomed to "doing our own thinking" that it is a habit that we regularly "fall back into".
A human body can do nothing except it be first instructed by the head. But here we have the Body of Christ often "doing its own thing" without first being instructed by the HEAD of the Body of Christ:
1 Corinthians 12:27
Now you are the body of Christ, and members in particular.
Colossians 1:18
And He {Jesus} is the head of the body, the church; who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things He might have the preeminence.
Just as in a natural body, the body of Christ should do NOTHING without first being told by the HEAD what the body should do:
John 8:28
Then said Jesus to them, ... you shall know that I am he and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father has taught me, I speak these things.
And He might as well have added, "And I ONLY speak those things which I hear and see the Father do, and I do nothing more; I don't add anything to it, nor do I substract anything from it":
John 5:19
Then Jesus said to them, ... The Son can do nothing of himself but what he sees the Father do: for whatsoever things He {the Father} does, these also does the Son likewise.
Thank God that we now have access to the Spirit of God again:
Ephesians 4:17
This I say therefore and testify in the Lord, that you henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind.
1 John 2:6
He who says he abides in Him ought himself also so to walk, even as He walked.
Romans 8:1
There is therefore now no condemnation to them who are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
love, Eden
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Eden
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hello, botham, you wrote quote:
My view is that Jesus chose to be perfectly obedient to His Father. He was tempted of the devil as we know and I could be wrong but if Jesus emptied His humanity and became fully God, which He would be as described by Eden, then He, Jesus could not be tempted as scripture says. Who or what can tempt God--obviously God is so far beyond temptation that it warrants no discussion.
Jesus as the Son of man had the fullness of the Godhead dwelling in Him ... why? Because Jesus CHOSE to follow the leading of God at all times.
Jesus, and we, make our decisions at the soul level, at the personality, mind, and emotions. While Jesus was alive, He had to continually chose NOT to act out of His own soul life, but to always defer to what God showed Jesus in His spirit of man, and Jesus continually CHOSE to do the Father's will and not to act out of His own soul life like the first Adam had done.
But Jesus COULD have acted out of His own soul life if He had wanted to, at any time and at any given moment, as in this instance:
Matthew 4
8 Again, the devil takes him {Jesus} up into an exceedingly high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and the glory of them;
9 And he {the devil} said to him, All these things will I give you, if you will fall down and worship me.
We know that in the end, Jesus will rule and reign over the earth, but here, the devil could have given Jesus all the kingdoms of the earth, without Jesus having to go through the agonizing death on the cross for our sins.
Jesus CHOSE to do it the Father's way so that our sins could be paid for. "Not My will be done, but Your will be done".
At any time, we also can still choose to deal with something that is currently happening in our life, by dealing with it either with "the mind of the flesh", or we can have faith and deal with it with "the mind of the Spirit".
Romans 8:5
For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
Before Jesus died on the cross for me, I only had one choice of acting or being: I operated my own life from the inflated soul, without any input from the spirit of man and from the Spirit of God.
After Jesus died on the cross for me, I was allowed access again to the Holy Spirit, so now I have TWO ways of acting and being: I can either do it the old way again by "leaning on my own understanding", OR now I can say, Okay, God Jesus, from heaven You can see all things that are happening on earth, so please, YOU, as the HEAD of the body of Christ, YOU guide my life by the Holy Spirit.
But I am still located at the soul level, that has not changed at all, nor has my soul been annihilated, I still have to decide whether by faith to trust God, or to trust my own mind again as Adam and Eve did when they sinned, which the Bible calls "eating of the tree of knowledge of good and evil".
Now that Jesus has died for me, I have TWO choices of how to live my life: "either depend on what Jesus counsels me to do by the Spirit which is now in me", or I can continue to "do it the old-fashioned way by "continuing to "lean on my own understanding".
Jesus as the Son of man NEVER made the mistake of "leaning on His own understanding", but HE COULD HAVE done that. But at all times He only "did what God the Father counselled Jesus to do through the Spirit":
ohn 8:28
Then said Jesus to them, When you have lifted up the Son of man, then shall you know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father has taught me, I speak these things.
1 Corinthians 2:10
But God has revealed them to us by His Spirit: for the Spirit searches all things, yea, the deep things of God.
Jesus never "leaned on His own understanding" but Jesus only executed the full Counsel of God, as God showed it to Jesus in His spirit". That does not make Jesus a ROBOT, no, that makes Jesus an Obedient Son. The Father, who can see all things, knows best:
Hebrews 4:13
Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in His sight; but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of Him with whom we have to do.
2 Timothy 2:7
Consider what I say; and may the Lord give you understanding in all things.
The repentant soul stops trying to run his own life and becomes willing again to let God run his life through the Spirit of God to the spirit of man. But we are so accustomed to running our own life from the soul level, which we learned from Adam and Eve, that it is a constant struggle ("a daily dying to self or self rule") to stop that habit and to have faith that God can and will guide the steps of our life with His eye and will teach us in the way that we should go. But at any time we can fall back in our old way again.
Psalm 106:39
Thus were they defiled with their own works, and went a whoring with their own inventions.
Hebrews 4:10
But he who is entered into his rest, he also has ceased from his own works, as God did from His.
Proverbs 3:5
Trust in the LORD with all your heart; and lean not on your own understanding.
Once I realized that I can only see in part but that the Father can see everything at once, I would be a fool if I did NOT let the Father guide me with His eye.
Isaiah 28:26
For his God does instruct him to discretion, and does teach him.
1 Corinthians 2:16
For who has known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct Him? But we have the mind of Christ.
We have the mind of Christ, IF SO BE that we listen to what the Spirit is saying to our spirit. If we don't bother to listen, then we are back using our own fleshly mind again to figure things out.
love, Eden
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Carol Swenson
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Botham
quote:
I believe that God is glorified when imperfect, hormone laden, anger and lust prone etc, humans, choose, yes choose by free will, to return our hearts and souls over to Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit for salvation and sanctification.
I believe this too. God created us to have a relationship with us. God loves His prodigal children.
Eden is right when he says we are guided by the Holy Spirit. But, we are being progressively sanctified during this lifetime. We submit to the Lord, yes, but we don't just cease to exist as He takes over the way Eden seems to be saying:
quote:
WE don't become "more and more like Him"; no, we only allow Him to "be Himself in us"; He retains His own traits. It is not that everyone "becomes like Jesus, but that Jesus is Himself in anyone who allows Jesus to guide his life from heaven by way of the Holy Spirit that is in us. God alone can be God in us.
I don't think Eden is talking about total depravity as in Calvinism; Eden studies under Watchman Nee.
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botham
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Thanks Eden--Jesus Christ was tempted in every way that we are, but He did not sin. We are probably dealing with semantics as to what Jesus meant when He said 'I do nothing without My Father'.
My view is that Jesus chose to be perfectly obedient to His Father. He was tempted of the devil as we know and I could be wrong but if Jesus emptied His humanity and became fully God, which He would be as described by Eden, then He, Jesus could not be tempted as scripture says. Who or what can tempt God--obviously God is so far beyond temptation that it warrants no discussion.
Now, it follows that if Jesus Christ was tempted, we shall be tempted as all of us know, and we shall often fall short. I often need forgiveness, though less these days as I pray more, and shall be in need of forgiveness until I shed this mortal coil.
Eden's comments are a version of the 'total depravity' doctrine and although an ideal, it would be difficult to name anyone, except our Lord, who ever did what is proposed.
I believe that God is glorified when imperfect, hormone laden, anger and lust prone etc, humans, choose, yes choose by free will, to return our hearts and souls over to Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit for salvation and sanctification.
One day, One Great Day, we will achieve this level of life and more, much more. God bless, Botham
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Eden
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Hello, Carol Swenson, Eden had written quote:
WE don't become "more and more like Him"; no, we only allow Him to "be Himself in us"; He retains His own traits. It is not that everyone "becomes like Jesus, but that Jesus is Himself in anyone who allows Jesus to guide his life from heaven by way of the Holy Spirit that is in us. God alone can be God in us.
Carol Swenson answered quote:
So why didn't God just create bodies to occupy? Why create human beings made in His image?
God did create human beings in His image in the garden:
Genesis 1:26
And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness ...
But Adam and Eve sinned when they decided to rule over their body with their soul, at the expense of spirit rule over the soul and body. As a result of "Adam going his own way with his own devices", the offspring of Adam and Eve was now "made in his own likeness":
Genesis 5:3
And Adam lived a 130 years, and begot a son in his own likeness and after his image; and he called his name Seth.
At that point man ruled his own life/body from the soul level, without any further input from his own spirit of man, which was now laying idel, nor from the Spirit of God which had lifted off the man now that the man wanted to "rule his own life with his own ideas and devices":
Proverbs 1:31
Therefore they shall eat of the fruit of their own way and be filled with their own devices.
After Jesus died on the cross for us, those of us who repented of "running our own life from the soul" (ie., "eating of the tree of knowledge of good and evil"), those who repented of ruling their own lives from the soul level, and asked God to forgive us and we agree to once again restore the rightful place of the spirit of man ("spirit, soul, body" 1 Thes.5:23), God Jesus will guide our lives from heaven by the Holy Spirit which instructs our spirit of man, which in turn instructs our soul what to do, which in turn instructs our body what to do.
This is exactly what Jesus as the Son of man did:
John 8:28
Then said Jesus to them, When you have lifted up the Son of man, then shall you know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father has taught me, I speak these things.
John 16:13
Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will show you things to come.
John 6:45
It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God ...
John 3:27
John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven.
John 5:19
Then Jesus said to them, Verily, verily, I say to you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what He sees the Father do: for whatsoever things He {the Father} does, these also the Son does likewise.
Luke 22:42
Saying, Father ... not my will, but Your will, be done.
Okay, Carol Swenson, let me repeat now what you said: quote:
So why didn't God just create bodies to occupy? Why create human beings made in His image?
The Son did not do His own thinking, but whatever He saw the Father do in His spirit, so the Son did likewise. That is, Jesus the Son let God instruct Him and teach Him in the way that He should go and let God guide Jesus with God's eye":
Psalm 32:8
I will instruct you and teach you in the way which you shall go: I will guide you with My eye.
Before God can teach us and guide us in the way we should go, we have to first abandon our own ideas and devices and no longer "lean on our own understanding", but instead we say, "Okay, God Jesus in heaven, You can see everything, guide my every step on earth with Your heavenly view by counseling Your advice to the Holy Spirit which is in me, which in turn tells my spirit of man what it should do, which in turn counsels my soul what it should do, which in turn decides whether to execute what God has said, or to execute its own idea and devices.
That is not being an automaton, that is being willing to let the fullness of the Godness dwell in us, as it did in Jesus:
Colossians 2:9
For in Him dwells all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
Romans 8:16
The Spirit itself bears witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God.
Eden had written quote:
WE don't become "more and more like Him"; no, we only allow Him to "be Himself in us"; He retains His own traits. It is not that everyone "becomes like Jesus, but that Jesus is Himself in anyone who allows Jesus to guide his life from heaven by way of the Holy Spirit that is in us. God alone can be God in us.
Carol Swenson answered quote:
So why didn't God just create bodies to occupy? Why create human beings made in His image?
God did create human beings in His image in the garden, then Adam created his offspring in Adam's image, and now God is restoring the image of God in us, even as we "cease from our own works" and "no longer lean on our own understanding" and let Jesus, the Head of the body of the church, guide our every step again with His eye from heaven, just as the LORD at first counseled Adam and Eve in the garden before they sinned. That's why the glory was on Adam and Eve before they sinned:
Numbers 14:21
But as truly as I live, all the earth shall be filled with the glory of the LORD.
Galatians 2:20
I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ lives in me ...
1 Corinthians 6:11
And such were some of you: but you are washed, but you are sanctified, but you are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.
Revelation 2:7
He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches ...
We are not so much transformed by beholding, but by restoring the original hierarchy of God, Spirit of God, spirit of man, soul, and body. When all of this is aligned properly and in agreement, the glory of God in the Spirit can even shine out to the body:
thew 17:2
And {Jesus} was transfigured before them; and His face did shine as the sun and His clothes were white as the light.
love, Eden
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Carol Swenson
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quote:
WE don't become "more and more like Him"; no, we only allow Him to "be Himself in us"; He retains His own traits. It is not that everyone "becomes like Jesus, but that Jesus is Himself in anyone who allows Jesus to guide his life from heaven by way of the Holy Spirit that is now in us. God alone can be God in us.
So why didn't God just create bodies to occupy? Why create human beings made in His image?
Have a blessed day Eden.
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Eden
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Carol Swenson, wrote to Eden quote:
I said the last section of the outline, just before the conclusion. The outline comes before Spurgeon's address.
Oops, wrong place ... who knew ... oh well ... it worked for me.
love, Eden
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Carol Swenson
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quote:
Hi, Carol Swenson, you said to Eden (in my words), "the last part of the Topic addressed this issue, is that what you meant"?
I said the last section of the outline, just before the conclusion. The outline comes before Spurgeon's address.
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Eden
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Hi, Carol Swenson, you said to Eden (in my words), "the last part of the Topic addressed this issue, is that what you meant"?
I looked at that last section and only found this quote that "sort of addressed" what I had said. In the last part, Spurgeon said quote:
It was only when the Spirit came down at Pentecost, (1) that they began to know Christ, and (2)to understand what he had said to them, (3)though he himself had said it. (bolded numbers are Eden's additions)
Yes, as for (1), at Pentecost when the Holy Spirit came on them, they began to know Christ, to the extent that they began to consult the Spirit in them instead of continuing their own soul rule.
As for (2) to understand what He had said to them, the Holy Spirit is not just for understanding of what He had said, the Holy Spirit is in us to guide us in ALL of our decisions, both mundane and religious, that we must make on each day of our life, now that we are Christians, Jesus can and will guide our lives completely from heaven, on a moment to moment and step by step basis.
The Holy Spirit is not just to remind us of "what He said during His lifetime" because that was more for the Apostles and writers of the Bible. But for us the Holy Spirit is our daily guide, each and every day of our lives as new Christians.
As for (3)though He himself had said it, the answer is the same as for (2)to understand what He had said to them.
For the Apostles and writers of the New Testament, yes, the Holy Spirit also brought to their remembrance all things Jesus had said during his earthly ministry; but for us, the Holy Spirit is given so that Jesus can guide our lives driectly from heaven, by way of the Spirit that is given to us for that purpose.
So the Holy Spirit is given to us for much more than what Spurgeon said quote:
It was only when the Spirit came down at Pentecost, (1) that they began to know Christ, and (2)to understand what he had said to them, (3)though he himself had said it.
Psalm 32:8
I will instruct you and teach you in the way which you shall go: I will guide you with My eye.
Isaiah 28:26
For his God does instruct him to discretion and does teach him.
The Spirit is not so much for the past, as the Spirit is for the present: Jesus tells His Body of Christ on earth what we should do by sending instructions from heaven to the Spirit of God that is in me. It is thus a matter of "who has ears to hear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the church".
love, Eden
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Eden
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Hi, Carol Swenson, you wrote quote:
I don't think we can achieve perfection in this life, but as we stay focused on Christ we become more and more like Him.
No, it's not that WE become more and more like Him, it is as WE DIMINISH (John the Baptist said, "He must increase, but I must decrease"), as WE DIMINISH our selifish soul rule, and allow God to speak to us and through us by His Spirit that is IN us, then it is NOT WE who are "become more like Jesus" but is it "Jesus who is being Himself" IN us. That is a huge difference.
I agree with Watchman Nee that WE don't actually ACQUIRE these Godly traits because WE diminish (the desire to rule ourselves like Adam and Eve did), when we STOP doing that, then the Resurrected Jesus the Head of the Body of Christ in heaven begins to "instruct us and teach us in the way that we should go and He guides us with His eye".
So let me repeat what you wrote, Carol Swenson quote:
I don't think we can achieve perfection in this life, but as we stay focused on Christ we become more and more like Him.
No, we don't become more and more like Him, it is Jesus Himself who is "operating our life for us" from heaven, He is what is seen, not US:
Galatians 2:20
I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave Himself for me.
WE don't become "more and more like Him"; no, we only allow Him to "be Himself in us"; He retains His own traits. It is not that everyone "becomes like Jesus, but that Jesus is Himself in anyone who allows Jesus to guide his life from heaven by way of the Holy Spirit that is now in us. God alone can be God in us.
Galatians 2:20
I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ lives in me ...
love, Eden
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Carol Swenson
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quote:
Originally posted by MentorsRiddle:
What a good post -- one every Christian should understand.
To be a Christian, which means "Christ-like", we should endevour to become more like Christ himself -- who in turn is God.
We must strive for perfection by letting the Holy Spirit of the Lord lead us in perfect fellowship with him.
We must present our bodies as perfect insturments to the Lord -- tools that he can use for his works here upon the earth.
We must present our minds and hearts as perfect vessles for his mind and love -- that he can use them to express his beauty and light.
Thank you for this post and the time it took you to deliver it to us, Carol.
God Bless,
Matt
God bless you, dear friend.
I don't think we can achieve perfection in this life, but as we stay focused on Christ we become more and more like Him. ![[Bible]](graemlins/bible.gif) ![[Cross]](graemlins/cross.gif) ![[Prayer]](graemlins/prayer.gif) Praise God! What a remarkable privilege to have His Word, His Spirit, and the hope of becoming like Him.
Paul
quote:
this should be our hope and our goal
AMEN! Thank you!
Hi Eden
quote:
While we are somewhat transformed by "beholding" Him in the Word, we are a lot more transformed by the extent to which we can implement and pass through what hear from the Holy Spirit in our bodies. Whatever the Holy Spirit says and shows us to do, IS glory and IS all the things we ever hoped for.
2 Corinthians 3:18
But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.
Beholding Him in the Word is good; beholding Him in the Spirit which is in us, is much better. (Not easy to do, but definitely better.)
love, Eden
![[wiggle7]](graemlins/wiggle7.gif) The last section of the outline, just before the conclusion, addresses that very issue. Is it different from what you mean?
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Eden
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While we are somewhat transformed by "beholding" Him in the Word, we are a lot more transformed by the extent to which we can implement and pass through what hear from the Holy Spirit in our bodies. Whatever the Holy Spirit says and shows us to do, IS glory and IS all the things we ever hoped for.
2 Corinthians 3:18
But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.
Beholding Him in the Word is good; beholding Him in the Spirit which is in us, is much better. (Not easy to do, but definitely better.)
love, Eden
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Brother Paul
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Nice Carroll, I really liked this one...this should be our hope and our goal...thank you!
Brother Paul
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MentorsRiddle
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What a good post -- one every Christian should understand.
To be a Christian, which means "Christ-like", we should endevour to become more like Christ himself -- who in turn is God.
We must strive for perfection by letting the Holy Spirit of the Lord lead us in perfect fellowship with him.
We must present our bodies as perfect insturments to the Lord -- tools that he can use for his works here upon the earth.
We must present our minds and hearts as perfect vessles for his mind and love -- that he can use them to express his beauty and light.
Thank you for this post and the time it took you to deliver it to us, Carol.
God Bless,
Matt
--------------------
With you I rise,
In you I sleep,
kneeling down I kiss your feet,
Grace abounds upon me now,
I once was lost
but now I'm found.
The gift of God dwells within,
To this love I now give in.
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Carol Swenson
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Transformation By Beholding
1. What is the goal of the Christian life? What is it we are to become?
a. In Ro 8:29, we learn what is the ultimate goal of the Christian
as predetermined by God
b. It is simply this: "...to be conformed to the image of His Son"
-- To become like Christ is our ultimate goal!
2. But how does this take place? How does one become like Christ? Take
a look at these words of Paul:
"But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the
glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from
glory to glory, just as by the Spirit of the Lord. (2 Cor 3:18)
3. In this verse, with the help of its context, we learn how it is
possible...
a. To reach that ultimate goal as predestined by God
b. To be "...conformed to the image of His Son"
[The passage which serves as our text (2Co 3:18) is not an easy one,
but since it reveals important insights into the goal of the Christian
life, it is worth taking the effort to carefully consider what it says.
For example, we first observe that...]
I. THE CHRISTIAN LIFE IS ONE OF TRANSFORMATION
A. "WE ALL...ARE BEING TRANSFORMED..."
1. The word "transformed"...
a. Comes from the Greek word metamorphoo {met-am-or-fo'-o}
b. Which means "to change into another form, to transform, to
transfigure"
c. The word "metamorphosis" is derived from this word, which
we use to describe the process of a caterpillar changing
into a butterfly
d. It's used to describe Jesus on the Mount of Transfiguration
- cf. Mt 17:1-2
1) He was "transfigured before them."
2) His face "shone like the sun" and His clothes "became
as white as the light"
2. Christians likewise are to undergo a transformation...
a. Not only based upon our text (2Co 3:18)
b. But also Ro 12:1-2, where our transformation is so we may
"prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of
God"
3. Note in our text that Paul said "we all"
a. Transformation is for ALL Christians
b. Not just for a select few!
B. "...TRANSFORMED INTO THE SAME IMAGE..."
1. Here we learn the object of our transformation, which is to
become like Christ
2. As we noticed in Ro 8:29, this is part of God's predetermined
plan for those in Christ
3. Jesus intimated as such in Lk 6:40 ("...everyone who is
perfectly trained will be like his teacher.")
C. "...FROM GLORY TO GLORY..."
1. This phrase suggests that our transformation is progressive
a. It does not happen all at once, but gradually
b. As Paul said we are "being transformed" (present tense),
not "have been transformed" (past tense)
2. Transformation therefore involves a growth process
a. We expect those who have been Christians but a short time
to have made only some progress
b. But we should also expect those who have been Christians a
good while to have made much progress!
3. The Christian life is not to be static, but a dynamic
process...
a. In which changes are taking place
b. In which a person is becoming more and more like their
Savior, Jesus Christ!
-- Compare this with what Solomon wrote about the just - Pro
4:18
[When transformation does not take place, something is wrong, and it
may be a failure to appreciate and utilize our second point gleaned
from this passage...]
II. TRANSFORMATION COMES BY BEHOLDING
A. "WITH UNVEILED FACE, BEHOLDING AS IN A MIRROR..."
1. We must remember the context of Paul's words to appreciate his
point
a. He had alluded to how Moses out of necessity put a veil on
his face when speaking to the people - cf. 2Co 3:13
b. For when Moses had gone to Mount Sinai to receive the
commandments of the Lord, being in the presence of God made
his face shine brightly - cf. Ex 34:29-35
2. In like manner our transformation takes place as we
"behold..."
a. Note that we do it with "unveiled face"
1) The Israelites were unable to behold any of the glory
that shone from Moses' face because his was veiled
2) But Christians are able to look upon the Lord's glory
without impediment
b. "Beholding as in a mirror" is actually just one word in
the Greek and has three possible ways to be translated:
1) "beholding as in a mirror (or glass)"
2) "reflecting as in mirror"
3) "beholding" (with no necessary reference to a mirror)
-- In view of the context and the comparison with Moses,
the main idea seems to be the "beholding", without any
particular reference to a mirror
c. "Beholding" suggests contemplation and meditation, not a
momentary glance
3. Thus the Christian life is to be one of contemplation, if
transformation is to take place
a. That Christians are to engage in contemplation is evident
from several passages
b. Such as Php 4:8; Col 3:1-2
c. Sadly, our fast-paced lifestyles often discourage the kind
of contemplation needed to adequately "behold"
-- Without contemplation (beholding), however, there can be no
transformation!
B. "BEHOLDING...THE GLORY OF THE LORD"
1. Here is the object of our contemplation: the Lord's glory!
a. It is not just the act of contemplation, but the object of
our contemplation that transforms us!
b. Just as it was the "glory of the Lord" that caused Moses'
face to shine, so it is "the glory of the Lord" that
transforms us!
2. What is "the glory of the Lord" we are to behold?
a. It would involve the glory He manifested while on earth
- cf. Jn 1:14
b. For the glory of the Lord is reflected in every aspect of
His birth, life, teaching, miracles, good deeds, death,
resurrection, ascension, and current reign as our king and
high priest!
-- Thus the Scriptures (especially the gospels) are the tools
we use to "behold His glory", as we read on...
C. "...JUST AS BY THE SPIRIT OF THE LORD"
1. This phrase reminds us of the role the Spirit has in our
"beholding"
a. What we know of Jesus came through the ministry of the
Spirit
1) The Spirit's ministry was to glorify Jesus - Jn 16:12-14
2) He reminded the apostles, and inspired their writings
- cf. Jn 14:26; 1Co 2:12-13
b. So as we contemplate upon the Word, we are able to behold
the glory of the Lord by virtue of what the Spirit has
done!
2. Indeed, this may explain what Paul meant in saying "Now the
Lord is the Spirit..." - 2Co 3:17
a. In verse 16, he had said "...when one turns to the Lord,
the veil is taken away"
b. But how can one "turn to the Lord" today?
1) Only through the Spirit Whom the Lord Jesus sent to
continue His work
2) Paul had already spoken of "the new covenant...of the
Spirit" which "gives life" - 2Co 3:6
a) One finds "liberty" (from sin, the Old Law, death)
where "the Spirit of the Lord" is found - 2Co 3:17
b) For it is the new covenant of the Spirit that offers
such things
c. In this context, the Spirit is therefore "the Lord" (verse
17) before Whom we must stand with "unveiled face" in
order to be transformed
d. Of course, the "ministers" of this "new covenant...of the
Spirit" were the apostles and inspired writers of the New
Testament - 2Co 3:5-6
1) Thus when we turn to their writings, we are turning to
the Spirit!
2) And when we turn to the Spirit, we are turning to the
Lord!
3) And when we turn to the Lord, we behold Him in all His
glory!
4) And when we behold His glory, we are gradually changed
"into the same image from glory to glory"!
CONCLUSION
1. In Col 3:9-11 we are told...
"Do not lie to one another, since you have put off the old man
with his deeds, and have put on the new man who is renewed in
knowledge according to the image of Him who created him, where
there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcised nor uncircumcised,
barbarian, Scythian, slave nor free, but Christ is all and in all."
2. This verse by Paul is yet another reminder that the Christian life
is one that involves a transformation...
a. In which we are being "renewed"
b. And that the object of our "renewal" is to become like Jesus!
3. From our study, I hope that we have been impressed with the importance of
"beholding" the glory of the Lord if we wish to be transformed
a. The Christian life must include contemplation and meditation upon
the glory of the Lord as revealed by the Spirit through the
apostles and writers of the New Testament
b. We cannot be transformed by infrequent and casual glimpses of the
Lord's glory!
Are you "beholding...the glory of the Lord"? Do you take the time to
contemplate upon the glory of our Lord as revealed by the Spirit of God
in the Holy Scriptures?
http://executableoutlines.com/2cor/2co3_18.htm
"We beheld his glory."
What is the word "Beheld?" It says not we heard of his glory, we read of it in prophecy, or we listened to it from the lips of others, but we beheld his glory. What a privilege was this, which was accorded to the first disciples! Have you not often envied them? To see the man, the very man, in whom God dwelt—to walk with him as one's companion along his journeys of mercy—to listen to the words as they stream all living from those eloquent lips—to look into his eyes, and mark the depth of love that glistened there—to see his face, even though it was more marred than that of any man. I have often sympathised in that child-like hymn:—
"I think when I read that sweet story of old,
When Jesus was here among men,
How he called little children as lambs to his fold,
I should like to have been with them then.
I wish that his hands had been placed on my head,
That his arm had been thrown around me,
And that I might have seen his kind looks when he said,
'Let the little ones come unto me.'"
But better still to have been with him—to have leaned this head upon his bosom—to have told him my griefs, as they did who took up the body of John, and went and told Jesus—to have asked of him the explanation of difficulties, as they said, "Show us the Father, and it sufficeth"—to have had one's faith encouraged by touching his very flesh, as he did of whom it is written, that he put his finger into the print of the nails and thrust his hand into his side.
But what are we talking about? All this is carnal, all this is of sight, and the Christian is a nobler being than to live and walk by sight. He lives by faith; and to this day, brethren, there is a sight of Christ which can be had by faith; and therefore, we need not murmur because we are denied the privilege of sight. The sight of Christ it seems, did but little good to those who had it, not even to his disciples, for they were sorry dolts, even though he was the Master. It was only when the Spirit came down at Pentecost, that they began to know Christ, and to understand what he had said to them, though he himself had said it. And truly 'tis better to see Christ by faith than it is to see him by sight, for a sight of him by faith saves the soul; but we might see him with the eye, and yet crucify him, yet be found amongst the greatest rebels against his government and power.
(Spurgeon)
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