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Topic: How safe are we?
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Brother Paul
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As the world says, "You go girl!"
The Lord Bless
Brother Paul
Posts: 235 | From: Cambridge, MA | Registered: Dec 2009
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Carol Swenson
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Hi Botham
quote:
Has anyone investigated John Crossan and the Jesus Seminar. If so it would be interesting to hear comments as to whether anyone thinks these people will inherit the Kingdom of God. These are all Christian scholars who deny the supernatural so it is a real life scenario because it would seem that perhaps some of them professed faith in Jesus Christ and His Resurrection at a point in the past. God bless, Botham
Jesus told us that there would be false teachers, and there have been even from the beginning. Paul spoke against false teachings in some of his letters. (No one knows who wrote Hebrews, by the way. Maybe Paul, maybe not).
 Wolves in sheep's clothing
Why are there critics of the Jesus Seminar?
The Jesus Seminar has been the target of criticism almost from the moment that they published their first paper on the life and death of Jesus Christ. The question is why are there so many critics of the Jesus Seminar and is what the critics are saying about the Jesus Seminar based in any relevant information or just because of a difference of opinion? Before we can understand why there are critics of the Jesus Seminar we must understand whom the Jesus Seminar is and what they stand for.
Why are there critics of the Jesus Seminar? - Who or what is the Jesus Seminar
Those who have never heard of the Jesus Seminar can easily be fooled by the name. Here is a quick look at who they are and why they were formed:
Westar Institute formed the Jesus Seminar in 1985 in order to better to research the life and teachings of Jesus Christ.
It is made up of 30 scholars from various fields who use their talents to analyze the Gospels and other writing concerning Jesus.
The seminar meets twice a year to debate technical papers that have been written and published about Jesus.
They vote on authenticity of Jesus' words and deeds using colored beads:
Red: That's Jesus!
Pink: Sure sounds like Jesus.
Gray: Well, maybe.
Black: There's been some mistake.
The Jesus Seminar goes through the Scriptures seeking to find what they believe to be the truth that is there. The problem is how they go about doing it.
Why are there critics of the Jesus Seminar? The Reasons Behind the Criticism
It is not so much the idea that the Jesus Seminar researches the teachings of Jesus that has people upset. It is the method that they go about doing it.
They dismiss any of the miracles of Jesus as just stories used to spark interest in Christ.
They dismiss the virgin birth as well as the resurrection of Christ because they cannot be explained by natural means.
The problem is that all of the miracles and the resurrection are necessary to show that Jesus is the Son of God. If you take away the miracles of Christ, it undermines who Jesus is and Jesus becomes just another man among men. Doing away with the miracles is not the only thing that causes people to be skeptical; it is also what the Jesus Seminar does with the sayings of Christ.
The Jesus Seminar rejects over 80 percent of the sayings attributed to Jesus. One example is the Lord's Prayer which the Jesus Seminar reviewed for accuracy as being the words of Jesus. After the Jesus Seminar finished reviewing the Lord's Prayer, they found only two words "Our Father" which could have been actually said by Jesus.
Why are there critics of the Jesus Seminar? Not Subjective in their findings
All of this has led the critics of the Jesus Seminar to cry foul because they say that the Jesus Seminar is not subjective in their findings. This criticism is based on the knowledge that the Jesus Seminar eliminates any evidence they cannot explained using modern scientific principles.
The critics of the Jesus Seminar point to the fact that since God works outside the natural realm, you cannot eliminate the documented evidence of what Jesus did ( the miracles), and what Jesus said (His teachings) if you are going to make an accurate assessment of finding the truth of who Jesus said He is (the Son of God).
http://www.allaboutreligion.org/critics-of-the-jesus-seminar-faq.htm
Will they inherit the Kingdom? We aren't allowed to judge people in that way, but we can expose their teaching as FALSE, and pray for them that they repent. ![[Prayer]](graemlins/prayer.gif)
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Eden
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So, brother Paul, y'all started this Topic, what y'all be thinking about what's been said so far?
love, Eden
"in graceland"
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botham
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Ladies and gentlement, Eden has left the building. You know I'm just pulling your leg--these predicaments as to interpretation are excellent points of discussion and are not amenable to a final resolution, meaning that disagreements will remain amongst solid, believing Christians.
Thank you Carol for the thorough explanation of scripture. Some of the contributors have evidently studied much more than me.
I attend a Pentecostal church and I've heard it said, sometimes with much admonition, that salvation can in fact be lost. I tend to think that a true believer, one who has experienced salvation in a meaningful way sensing in their spirit the Truth about existence being impossible without a Creator, will not leave the faith.
Sure, life throws immense pain at us and the most fervent believer might wonder why God would allow such horrendous events to occur to them or to a child or whatever. But sooner or later they will regain their strength in God and know that He was there all the time. So generally it seems to come back to the question was the person really saved who left the faith. Hebrews 6 presents a dilemma, but it should not be troubling to a mature Christian who admits the truth that we all wander off the path now and then.
One thing I know--God will not go back on His word conerning His Son. The price paid for us is unquestionably far too high for this to happen.
I know that I can mess up big time if I let my emotions dominate as happens sometimes. If this is on the day I die, I go to heaven. I go because I have told God that I believe His Glorious Son ransomed me from death and hell, not for the state of affairs of my miserable soul on my deathbed. I might be full of painkillers for all I know, but I hope not.
Carol, I am not an English scholar but I know what hyperbole means and St. Paul used it a little. He also could go on quite a tirade such as 1 Cor. 15, thank God. So interpretation must take so much into account. But we all agree, I think, that the Holy Spirit is speaking to us through these early writers.
Has anyone investigated John Crossan and the Jesus Seminar. If so it would be interesting to hear comments as to whether anyone thinks these people will inherit the Kingdom of God. These are all Christian scholars who deny the supernatural so it is a real life scenario because it would seem that perhaps some of them professed faith in Jesus Christ and His Resurrection at a point in the past. God bless, Botham
Posts: 103 | From: canada | Registered: Nov 2009
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Eden
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Hi, botham, you wrote quote:
Eden you will have been the only mortal who ever put this theological dilemma to rest, so guess what?
Know what I mean?
As Elvis Presley would say, "thank you ... thank you very much ..."
IF ... IF ... IF ... IF ... IF ... IF ... IF ... IF ... IF ... IF ... IF ... IF ... IF ... IF
Hebrews 3:6
But Christ as a Son over His own house; whose house we are, IF we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.
love, Eden
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Carol Swenson
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Hi Botham
I believe in eternal security, but Hebrews 6 is difficult. I think this is a fairly good summary of the various ways it has been interpreted:
Bible students over the years have come up with several approaches to this serious passage. One view is that the writer is warning us against the sin of apostasy, willfully turning one’s back on Jesus Christ and returning to the old life. According to them, such a person would be lost forever. I have several problems with this interpretation. To begin with, the Greek word apostasia is not used in this passage. The verb for “fall away” (Heb. 6:6) is parapipto, which literally means “to fall alongside.” Second, we always interpret the obscure by the obvious. There are many verses in Scripture that assure the true believer that he can never be lost. In fact, one of the greatest arguments for security is the last section of this chapter! (Heb. 6:13-20; see also John 5:24; 10:26-30; Rom. 8:28-39)
Those who teach that we can lose our salvation also teach that such a person can be restored. But this passage (Heb. 6:4-6) teaches just the opposite! If you omit the intervening clauses, the statement reads: “For it is impossible … to renew them again to repentance.” In other words, if this refers to apostasy, once a saved person turns his back on Christ, he cannot be restored to salvation. He is lost forever.
Others claim that the people addressed were not true believers. They had cooperated with the Holy Spirit up to a point, but were not actually born again. Well, let’s examine the description of these people and see if they possessed true salvation.
They were “enlightened” (Heb. 6:4). The “once” means “enlightened once and for all.” The way this same verb is used in Hebrews 10:32 indicates an experience of true salvation (see 2 Cor. 4:4-6).
They “tasted of the heavenly gift” (Heb. 6:4b), and “tasted the good Word of God, and the powers of the world [age] to come” (Heb. 6:5). To claim that these people “tasted but did not eat” is to base interpretation on one meaning of an English word. God permitted His Son to “taste death for every man” (Heb. 2:9). Surely Jesus Christ did not simply sample death on the cross! “Taste” carries the idea of “experience.” These Hebrew believers had experienced the gift of salvation, the Word of God, and the power of God. Doesn’t this describe authentic salvation?
They “were made partakers of the Holy Spirit” (Heb. 6:4c). To suggest that they only went along with the Holy Spirit to a certain extent is to ignore the simple meaning of the verb. It means “to become sharers.” These same people were not only “sharers of the Holy Spirit,” but also “sharers of the heavenly calling” (Heb. 3:1) and “sharers of Christ” (Heb. 3:14).
In view of these facts, I have concluded that the people addressed were true believers, not mere professors. Furthermore, how could unsaved people ever disgrace Jesus Christ and put Him to open shame?
A third view is that this sin (whatever it is) could be committed only by Hebrew Christians in the first century, while the temple services were still going on. If so, then why did the writer connect this exhortation with the heavenly priesthood of our Lord and the importance of spiritual maturity? If what he wrote about cannot happen today, what is the motivation behind the exhortation? It all seems futile to me if we limit these verses to first-century Jewish believers.
Then what is the writer trying to say to us? It is probable that he is describing a hypothetical case to prove his point that a true believer cannot lose his salvation. His statement in Hebrews 6:9 seems to support this interpretation: “Even though we speak like this, dear friends, we are confident of better things in your case” (niv). His argument runs like this:
“Let’s suppose that you do not go on to maturity. Does this mean that you will go back to condemnation, that you will lose your salvation? Impossible! If you could lose your salvation, it would be impossible to get it back again; and this would disgrace Jesus Christ. He would have to be crucified again for you, and this could never happen.”
In Hebrews 6:4, the writer changed the pronouns from “we” and “us” to “those.” This change also suggests that he had a hypothetical case in mind.
However, there is another possible interpretation that does not require a hypothetical case. You should note that the words “crucify” and “put” in Hebrews 6:6 are, in the Greek, present participles: “while they are crucifying … and while they are putting Him to an open shame.” The writer did not say that these people could never be brought to repentance. He said that they could not be brought to repentance while they were treating Jesus Christ in such a shameful way. Once they stop disgracing Jesus Christ in this way, they can be brought to repentance and renew their fellowship with God.
Whatever approach you take, please keep in mind that the writer’s purpose was not to frighten the readers but to assure them. If he had wanted to frighten them, he would have named whatever sin (or sins) would have caused them to disgrace Jesus Christ; but he did not do so. In fact, he avoided the word apostasy and used instead “to fall by the wayside” (see Gal. 6:1 for a similar word).
(Wiersbe)
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botham
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Hello all--very good comments. Carol Swenson seems--I emphasize 'seems' to make a contradiction. When Eden quoted Hebrews 6 vs.4,5,6 I think it is clear that a saved person can renounce in their heart, the free gift of salvation. It hurts me to even read it but there it is.
The scriptures say to me that Christ died for every soul that was ever created--so we are justified even before our confession of Christ and His resurrection. But God needs us to personally of our free will, let Him know that we have finally believed the Holy Spirit who has been telling us of our need all along. Most do not listen as evidenced all around us and most of us need a crisis of some kind, which God is happy to provide, to express our prayer.
I think we need to confess faith in the Blood of Christ and His Resurrection.
No person of faith would seriously think that the inevitable stumblings during sanctification would amount to the renouncing of faith alluded to in Hebrews. For instance someone who had a heroin addiction might go back to the street temporarily for relief because they were not decipled sufficiently or because they were not diligent enough in their spiritual recovery. That's just one example of someone who is born again of the Spirit but will hit some lows along the way in their sanctification.
Some people in the Jesus Seminar, a heretical group to say the least, were probably believers at one time. But now they publish material and produce documentaries that generally deny the supernatural in general, and states that most claims of miracles, if not all, are myths written by wishful thinking Jesus followers who could not stand the idea of Jesus being killed outright and that's that. These people will have given up their claim to salvation under the ubiquitous justification available to believers. They are no longer believers and seek to sway public opinion and weak believers to a humanistic view of scriptures.
So, Carol Swenson originally stated in so many words(forgive me for I do not know how to cut and paste--I'll ask my daughter), that justification is a one time event available to all who will believe and that Christ did it ALL. Couldn't agree more!
Eden sought to put these discussions to rest by saying that it at death and only death that God checks out the believers true sentiments. Eden you will have been the only mortal who ever put this theological dilemma to rest, so guess what?
Know what I mean?
I think it might boil down to the meaning of Hebrews 6 vs.4,5,6. It will have to mean a complete renouncing of faith, a complet turnaround. But bit of a cunundrum eh? God bless, Botham
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becauseHElives
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I am glad we can disagree agreeably ....
lets me see a little deeper into your heart...
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
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WildB
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quote:
Originally posted by becauseHElives:
quote:
You cannot unborn the born.
Be it flesh or be it Spirit.
with Yahweh all things are possible!
28And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
I fear the human mind tries to limit the Holy One to often. Put Yahweh in a theological box according to their perception of Yahweh.
The Truth is Yahweh is Omnipotent...
Truth also is anyone living after the flesh will not inherit eternal life, no matter how many times they have prayed a sinners prayer.
Truth also is only those that endure to the end will be saved.
The parable of the sower tells us plainly ....
Mark 4
13And he said unto them, Know ye not this parable? and how then will ye know all parables? ...
16And these are they likewise which are sown on stony ground; who, when they have heard the word, immediately receive it with gladness;
17And have no root in themselves, and so endure but for a time: afterward, when affliction or persecution ariseth for the word's sake, immediately they are offended.
23If any man have ears to hear, let him hear.
Christ would be kicking against his very self if he did not make known to his people a "special" kick you in the *** a new commandment.
Sorry.
Your just wrong.
Love ya.
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That is all.....
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becauseHElives
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quote:
You cannot unborn the born.
Be it flesh or be it Spirit.
with Yahweh all things are possible!
28And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
I fear the human mind tries to limit the Holy One to often. Put Yahweh in a theological box according to their perception of Yahweh.
The Truth is Yahweh is Omnipotent...
Truth also is anyone living after the flesh will not inherit eternal life, no matter how many times they have prayed a sinners prayer.
Truth also is only those that endure to the end will be saved.
The parable of the sower tells us plainly ....
Mark 4
13And he said unto them, Know ye not this parable? and how then will ye know all parables? ...
16And these are they likewise which are sown on stony ground; who, when they have heard the word, immediately receive it with gladness;
17And have no root in themselves, and so endure but for a time: afterward, when affliction or persecution ariseth for the word's sake, immediately they are offended.
23If any man have ears to hear, let him hear.
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
Posts: 4578 | From: Southeast Texas | Registered: Jun 2002
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WildB
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eden:
WildB wrote quote:
You cannot unborn the born.
Be it flesh or be it Spirit.
Ephesians 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
A real born again person can only lose reward not be eternally dammed, unborn, unsealed.
It just ain't scriptural.
Oh? Is it not scriptural?
Hebrews 6
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and were made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
Note that in verse 4 that they were "made partakers of the Holy Spirit", which can only mean that they were "born again of the Spirit", but then in verse 6 "they fell away" and cannot be renewed unto repentance.
It's scriptural.
love, Eden
OH Eden "if"
What does "if" mean to you?
IF you understood the script properly divided,
You would understand what falling from Grace was and Apostasy.
The sin unto death does not not unseal, unborn you. It just shortens your time on earth that the spirit may be saved until the day of redemption.
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That is all.....
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Carol Swenson
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Hebrews 6
But the falling away here mentioned, is an open and avowed renouncing of Christ, from enmity of heart against him, his cause, and people, by men approving in their minds the deeds of his murderers, and all this after they have received the knowledge of the truth, and tasted some of its comforts. Of these it is said, that it is impossible to renew them again unto repentance. Not because the blood of Christ is not sufficient to obtain pardon for this sin; but this sin, in its very nature, is opposite to repentance and every thing that leads to it. If those who through mistaken views of this passage, as well as of their own case, fear that there is no mercy for them, would attend to the account given of the nature of this sin, that it is a total and a willing renouncing of Christ, and his cause, and joining with his enemies, it would relieve them from wrong fears.
(Matthew Henry)
Posts: 6787 | From: Colorado | Registered: Dec 2007
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Carol Swenson
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Eden
quote:
So Carol Swenson, you ought not to compare me with the Catholics and Orthodox Christians
I did not compare you to anyone, just stated what the two main schools of thought are.
quote:
By the way, Carol Swenson, I have noticed before in your posts (not only in this thread) that you do not hesitate to slightly distort what I have said in MY post in order to make it look as if I have said so and so, when in fact I have said no such thing. That is unethical to do, Carol Swenson.
I don't distort what you are saying. I use a direct copy and paste to quote you.
You are the one who is making accusations, not me.
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Eden
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WildB wrote quote:
You cannot unborn the born.
Be it flesh or be it Spirit.
Ephesians 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
A real born again person can only lose reward not be eternally dammed, unborn, unsealed.
It just ain't scriptural.
Oh? Is it not scriptural?
Hebrews 6
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and were made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
Note that in verse 4 that they were "made partakers of the Holy Spirit", which can only mean that they were "born again of the Spirit", but then in verse 6 "they fell away" and cannot be renewed unto repentance.
It's scriptural.
love, Eden
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Eden
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Carol Swenson also wrote quote:
Imagine Mr. A telling Mr. B, "I have more faith than you. So, I am more justified than you."
When it comes to justification, there is no such thing as more faith or less faith in Jesus's Substitutionary Death, either a person believes in Jesus dying for him or a person does not believe it.
Nor is there such a thing as "having to have more faith" for anything; there is only ONE kind of faith necessary, namely that of believing that Jesus died for us and that SAME faith needs to continued over one's lifetime until the believer dies.
There is therefore no such thing as "Mr. A telling Mr. B, 'I have more faith than you. So, I am more justified than you'." There is only one justification, which is the same for all, and only one faith to receive it, which is the same for all.
By the way, Carol Swenson, I have noticed before in your posts (not only in this thread) that you do not hesitate to slightly distort what I have said in MY post in order to make it look as if I have said so and so, when in fact I have said no such thing. That is unethical to do, Carol Swenson.
love, Eden
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Eden
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Hello, Carol Swenson, Eden had written quote:
To remain justified , the believer has to continue to actively believe that Jesus died for him.
You answered to Eden: quote:
Catholics and Orthodox Christians distinguish between initial justification—which occurs in baptism—and final justification, accomplished after a lifetime of striving to do God's will. {bolded part done by Eden}
Dear Carol Swenson, I do not believe like the Catholics and Orthodox Christians do, that there is an initial justification and a final justification which a Christian accomplishes after a lifetime of striving to do God's will. I have NEVER said that a Christian needs to "strive for a lifetime to do God's will" in order to receive a final justification. I have ONLY said that a Christian NEEDS TO CONTINUE TO BELIEVE until death that JESUS DIED FOR HIM in order for that Christian to be eligible for a glorified body at death.
To BELIEVE IN JESUS until death is COMPLETELY different than "striving to do God's will for a lifetime after the initial justification". There is ONLY ONE justification, and that is received instanteneously by grace when a sinner first believes in Jesus. But a sinner MUST continue to BELIEVE that Jesus died for him until the believer dies; that is completely different than "striving to do God's will for the rest of one's lifetime after the initial justification to gain an imagined and non-existent final justification.
If a person at death is still eligible for that initial justification because the person is still a believer in Jesus, then God determines that person to be actually saved and eligible to receive his glorified body.
But if during his lifetime the person turns from believing that Jesus died for him, having been to college and now thinks that Darwin had it right and all this Bible stuff is medieval nonsense and are creations of man's own mind but they don't really exist nor did the "miracles" in the Bible really happen (blah, blah, blah), then that person, though his sins used to be covered by Jesus's death, now that believer in Darwin has put himself back under the law and he has to pay for his own sins again.
Because the requirement is that a person BELIEVE UNTO DEATH and NOT DEPART from that belief that Jesus died for him:
Hebrews 3:6
But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, IF we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.
Hebrews 10:23
Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for He is faithful that promised).
Revelation 3:3
Remember therefore how you have received and heard, and hold fast and repent. If therefore you shall not watch, I will come on yuo as a thief, and you shall not know at what hour I will come upon you.
Revelation 2:10
Fear none of those things which you shall suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that you may be tried; and you shall have tribulation ten days: be you faithful unto death and I will give you a crown of life.
So Carol Swenson, you ought not to compare me with the Catholics and Orthodox Christians; there is only one justification and that occurs when a person first believes that Jesus died for him. After that we do not have to strive to do God's will for a lifetime to achieve some imagined final justification; NO, we only need to continue to BELIEVE in JESUS's Substitutionary death for the rest of our lifetime, and BELIEVING is MUCH EASIER to do than "some striving to do God's will for the rest of one's lifetime". I have never said anything like that, nor does the Bible say anything like that.
You further wrote quote:
Protestants believe no one deserves God's forgiveness and the achievement of righteousness. It is a single act of His grace to grant it to those who believe in Christ.
Good, then I'm a Protestant. Except that God determines if the person is still eligible for that glorified body by looking to see if that person STILL BELIEVES IN JESUS when that person dies. If that person no longer believes "that Bible nonsense", then "even what he has shall be taken away from him":
Mark 4:25
For he who has, to him shall be given; but he who has not, from him shall be taken even that which he has.
love, Eden
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WildB
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You cannot unborn the born.
Be it flesh or be it Spirit.
Ephesians 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
A real born again person can only lose reward not be eternally dammed, unborn, unsealed.
It just ain't scriptural.
If a born again person gets brain cancer to where they become a vegetable and or vile and dies in that state, then what?
Shall God take back that persons Spiritual rebirth? You know, un-seal them that they have no more redemption?
I think not.
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That is all.....
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Carol Swenson
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You said
quote:
To remain justified , the believer has to continue to actively believe that Jesus died for him.
Catholics and Orthodox Christians distinguish between initial justification—which occurs in baptism—and final justification, accomplished after a lifetime of striving to do God's will.
Protestants believe no one deserves God's forgiveness and the achievement of righteousness. It is an act of His grace to grant it to those who believe in Christ. (Wikipedia)
A person cannot become un-justified.
quote:
What errors may develop if a person considers his faith to be the foundation that supports his justification?
We are not justified by our faith as if we are self-righteous. We are justified by the REDEMPTION that is in Christ Jesus (Rom. 3:24).
Imagine Mr. A telling Mr. B, "I have more faith than you. So, I am more justified than you." A person is either condemned or he is justified - there are no degrees of justification. More faith does not mean more justification. So to think that faith is the foundation to support justification leads to error.
In a court of law, when a person is declared "not guilty", that's it. He doesn't become more "not guilty" if he believes it more. A man astonished at the verdict is just as "not guilty" as the one who is confident about it.
Justification is to be judged "not guilty" by God. It isn't because we deserve His grace. The righteousness God looks upon when He justifies the believer is resident in CHRIST JESUS (Phil. 3:9; Rom. 4:23-25).
In justification, God takes His own righteousness and credits it to the believer. Faith cannot be a meritorious work, it is simply the channel which receives God’s righteousness (Rom. 4:3).
God justifies the person who looks away from himself and trusts in CHRIST ALONE for righteousness (Titus 3:5-7; Rom. 4:4,5).
Saving faith never looks upon itself as having performed a meritorious work. Beware when the seeker asks, “What is faith, that I may do it?”
http://www.frontlinemin.org/dynaofgrace.asp
quote:
We are justified by faith in Jesus, and the moment we believe in Jesus as our Substitute we are justified or saved or have Jesus's righteousness imputed to our account.
Justification and Salvation are not the same thing. Salvation includes Justification, but also much more.
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Regeneration
To be born again; Born of the Spirit" (John 3:8). Fallen man is created anew "in the image of God," and brought from death in sin to life in Christ.
Justification
God’s act of declaring us “not guilty” for our sins, making us “right” with him.
Romans 4:25; 5:18
Propitiation
The removal of God’s punishment for sin through the perfect sacrifice of Jesus Christ.
Romans 3:25
Redemption
Jesus Christ has paid the price so we can go free. The price of sin is death; Jesus paid the price.
Romans 3:24; 8:23
Sanctification
Becoming more and more like Jesus Christ through the work of the Holy Spirit.
Romans 5:2; 15:16
Glorification
The ultimate state of the believer after death when he or she becomes like Christ (1 John 3:2).
Romans 8:18-19, 30
Posts: 6787 | From: Colorado | Registered: Dec 2007
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Eden
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Carol Swenson wrote to Eden quote:
Some of us see it differently.
Justification is by grace alone through faith alone at the moment a person is converted.
Justification is a legal act, wherein God deems the sinner righteous on the basis of Christ's righteousness. Unlike Sanctification, Justification is not a process, but is a one-time act, complete and definitive.
That's what I believe too; a person believes in Jesus and he is immediately justified; it is a one-time act and not a process.
You also wrote quote:
God does not justify us because we are becoming more holy, but when He has justified us we grow in holiness. This is Sanctification.
That's what I believe too; we are justified by faith and then sanctification or "being set apart unto God" is a process.
You also said quote:
What errors may develop if a person considers his faith to be the foundation that supports his justification?
Huh? What does that mean? We are justified by faith in Jesus, and the moment we believe in Jesus as our Substitute we are justified or saved or have Jesus's righteousness imputed to our account.
You also said quote:
Sinful man cannot contribute to his justification. It can only be received as a gift of God’s grace.
That's correct.
So I don't see where we differ? Please explain. Thanks. Eden
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Carol Swenson
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quote:
Justification is a free gift from God which a sinner receives by believing what Jesus has done him. To remain justified, the believer has to continue to actively believe that Jesus died for him.
Some of us see it differently.
Justification is by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone at the moment a person is converted.
Justification is a legal act, wherein God deems the sinner righteous on the basis of Christ's righteousness. Unlike Sanctification, Justification is not a process, but is a one-time act, complete and definitive.
God's act of justification may be seen to involve a double imputation. On the one hand, the sin and guilt of the believer are imputed to Christ. On the other hand, the righteousness of Christ is imputed to the believer, whereby he is declared righteous.
Justification is seen in two parts: (1) The sinner is forgiven on the basis of Christ's righteousness. The pardon does not merely cover sins already committed – but reaches to all sins. (2) The sinner is adopted as a child of God. God places them within his household, giving them all the rights of heirs and children (Rom 8:17, 1 Peter 1:4).
(Theopedia)
God does not justify us because we are becoming more holy, but when He has justified us we grow in holiness. This is Sanctification.
What errors may develop if a person considers his faith to be the foundation that supports his justification?
Sinful man cannot contribute to his justification. It can only be received as a gift of God’s grace.
http://www.frontlinemin.org/dynaofgrace.asp
Posts: 6787 | From: Colorado | Registered: Dec 2007
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Eden
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Hi, TB125, Eden wrote quote:
God ONLY looks at what a person believes AT THE TIME OF DEATH.
Then you answered quote:
It is this perspective to which you need to give more thought. I understand that a lot of sinners do not or cannot wait until they are on their "death beds" to repent of their sins. Since God calls sinners to repent, he is not likely to do that with most sinners.
If "God only looks at what a person believes at the time of death", then God's work of sanctification prior to that time is of questionable benefit. I trust that you get my point. (bold emphasis done by Eden)
Justification is a free gift from God which a sinner receives by believing what Jesus has done him. To remain justified, the believer has to continue to actively believe that Jesus died for him.
Once a person is justified, then sanctification is a cooperative work between the believer and God through the Holy Spirit.
When a believer dies still sincerely believing that Jesus died for him, then the believer receives the earned rewards of sanctification.
But if the believer dies when he no longer believes that Jesus died for him, he is back under the law and has to pay for his own sins, and both his justification ("receiving a glorified body") and receiving rewards for his sanctification are forfeited.
1 John 2:19
They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
During a believer's lifetime, a believer has all the normal access to God by the Spirit as long as he believes. But he HAS to be a believer at death in order for him to qualify for a glorified body and rewards (if he has any); for else he has put himself back under the law:
Galatians 4:21
Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not hear the law?
love, Eden
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TB125
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Eden,
You said: quote:
God ONLY looks at what a person believes AT THE TIME OF DEATH.
It is this perspective to which you need to give more thought. I understand that a lot of sinners do not or cannot wait until they are on their "death beds" to repent of their sins. Since God calls sinners to repent, he is not likely to do that with most sinners. If "God only looks at what a person believes at the time of death", then God's work of sanctification prior to that time is of questionable benefit. I trust that you get my point.
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Bob
Posts: 449 | From: Rockford Illinois | Registered: Nov 2003
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Eden
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TB125 wrote quote:
Eden, your perspective on this matter makes a "death bed confession" the most attractive one for a sinner who enjoys his or her life of sin and just chooses to wait until he or she is almost out of time to "repent".
We all know that repentance does not work that mechanically. Sinners are unhappy during their lifetime and seek for answers and begin to read the Word of God and they see the glory of the Word and they are saved because they're sick of their life as it is, and they repent of their former ways and vow to seek after God because that is where the good life is.
Since no one knows when one will die (I nodded out the other day while on a long vacation drive and was awoken by the lane-crossing bumps), only a fool would try to time his repentance and salvation with his imminent death.
Notwithstanding, there IS such a thing as a deathbed repentance. But most people find the Lord during circumstances of their ongoing life and repent that way, and hopefully continue to believe unto death:
Mark 13:13
And you shall be hated of all men for My name's sake: but he who shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
I'm taking no chances, I've already saved myself:
John 9:4
I must work the works of Him who sent Me while it is day; the night comes, when no man can work.
Acts 2:40
And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
TB125, your scenario that people will then wait until they see death approaching is unrealistic; it does not happen that way except in a small amount of cases.
love, Eden
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TB125
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Eden,
Your perspective on this matter makes a "death bed confession" the most attractive one for a sinner who enjoys his or her life of sin and just chooses to wait until he or she is almost out of time to "repent". I'm not sure that God manages his saving work in this way. I think that you need to give this matter some more study and thought.
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Bob
Posts: 449 | From: Rockford Illinois | Registered: Nov 2003
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Eden
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Hello, Brother Paul, you discussion question was quote:
Can a genuinely saved Christian lose their salvation?
I think I finally solved this age-old riddle a couple of months ago when I proposed that God ONLY looks at what a person believes AT THE TIME OF DEATH.
I have a friend who believed but now that he went to university, he no longer believes the Bible and thinks it's a bunch of medieval nonsense, so he no longer believes in Jesus as a Substitute for his sins, and he has put himself "back under the law" by no longer believing the Bible.
During one's lifetime, people change their minds. For this reason, when the Lord with His foreknowledge considers each person, the Lord looks at what a person believes at their death:
Revelation 2
... be faithful unto death, and I will give you a crown of life.
Hebrews 3:6
But Christ as a son over His own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.
Ezekiel 18:26
When a righteous man turns away from his righteousness and commits iniquity and dies in them; for his iniquity that he has done he shall die.
Ezekiel 33:15
If the wicked restore the pledge, give again that he had robbed, walk in the statutes of life, without committing iniquity; he shall surely live, he shall not die.
The above shows that God knows that during their lifetimes, people change their minds. Therefore God smartly decided to wait until death to decide whether someone was a saved Christian or not. If they believe at death, they are saved. If they don't believe at death, they will not be saved.
And this way God also eliminates the endless discussion about "once saved, always saved" or "whether one can lose one's salvation". By deciding the issue at death, that discussion becomes moot.
But, let's say that a person believes in Jesus in their 20s and believes in Jesus for 10 years into their 30s, do they have no benefit of being a Christian while they believe during those 10 years? As long as they believe they have access to the Holy Spirit's Counsel to teach them in the way they should go.
But when that person stops believing and thinks it's all nonsense and it's just random evolution, etc., what happens is that that person stops seeking the counsel of the Holy Spirit and begins to run his own life again from the soul level, without input from this "nonexistent God". The net result is that the person is back under the law and responsible again for the penalty of his own sins.
For this reason God simplified things and decided to see what a man believes at death, and if the man believes at death, God will give him eternal life in the world-to-come. And if the person does not believe at death, the person dies in his own sins and is responsible for them. That way there is no discussion about "once saved, always saved" or "we can lose our salvation".
So Brother Paul wrote quote:
Can a genuinely saved Christian lose their salvation?
God ONLY looks at what a person believes AT THE TIME OF DEATH. But during their lifetime a person can lose his salvation, but a person can also regain his salvation. It all depends on what he believes at this death.
These "centuries of in-house discussion" were generated because people mistakenly thought that God decided on what a person believed during his lifetime. Therefore God smartly does not make His final determination until the person dies since during their lifetime people can and do change their minds. Case closed, end of discussion.
love, Eden the merchant of Chilmad
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botham
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Thank you Brother Paul--your seem to have a developed thesis about a broad spectrum of things in general and a unique gift to bring these ideas forth in the context of our Great Faith. So thank you for taking the time to be a contributor and giving us the benefit of the work--a labour of love I think.
I had never given much thought to the Calvinist approach before entering the conversations here at CMB, or much of anything except a basic faith for that matter. As soon as I saw a contributor elucidate the total depravity approach I just sensed a resistance in my spirit for some reason. Surely this would eliminate true freedom to choose or reject God. So I maintain that God is so High above any mortal that He can created free willed beings without violating the seemingly contrdictory notion of Him knowing all things outside the confines of time about what any of His creations will do or will not do.
Those who embrace the total depravity approach, citing the absolute sovereignty of God(which is indisputable), cannot allow frail human choice in any ultimate sense. To do so would lessen God, to make God in our image to satisfy carnal, wishful, sinful thinking. I think God is all the greater to be unequivocally ominiscient and at once able to create free willed beings. But no salvation occurs without God's first moving on His creation so things start to become circular. Are we even meant to be able to resolve these questions?
I'll tell you what I do take from the Calvinists and it is this--a renewed conviction of the majesty and grandeur of our Creator, a better view about His Holy qualities that should be first and foremost in all considrations before Him.
So I'm thankful for all contributors. Have a blessed New Year in our saviour Jesus Christ. Glory to His Name forever. Botham
Posts: 103 | From: canada | Registered: Nov 2009
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Carol Swenson
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Good morning Paul. It's nice to meet you.
Ephesians 4:30
And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
The concept of sealing includes the ideas of ownership, authority, responsibility, and, above all, security. Sealing assures us of the security of God’s promises to us, especially our salvation. We can be certain (a) that He possesses us, (b) that we have a secure salvation sealed by and with the Spirit, and (c) that He purposes to keep us to the day of our full redemption. (Basic Theology)
Romans 6:15
What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
Posts: 6787 | From: Colorado | Registered: Dec 2007
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Brother Paul
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Brothers and sisters, the Lord's blessings be upon you all...
Here is a topic related to another we have been discussing and it is also controversial and has been an ongoing "IN-HOUSE" discussion for centuries, so let us primarily love the Lord our God with all our heart...and one another as He has love us, and not take offense but be engaged so that we all together may be edified by our different prespectives (iron sharpens iron), and perhaps if we see reason to consider may even grow a bit...
So here is the question and then I will give you my understanding and I look forward to all perspective and even criticism....Love you all, amen.
Can a genuinely saved Christian lose their salvation?
From this humble servant's perspective the answer is no. God is the God of as many chance as it takes to those who believe Him, but even He has His self-imposed limits, and if we insist on going our own way consistently He will let us have at it. So if you would rather learn your lessons the hard way and get a few good spankings as I have, you can be sure sooner or later He will lift His loving protecting hand and say go for it. When that happens you will find yourself eventually somewhere in the pigpen of the world realizing you would be better off being a worthless slave in the house of our Father than the lord of your own life in the world.
That being said I really see four views (pardon the oversimplification):
Calvanism says once you are saved, because you were elected before the foundation of the world, you cannot lose your salvation. Calvanism is deterministic and there is no free will. In effect, God already has chosen who gets eternal life and who gets eternal death (some say merely by not choosing them).
Arminianism says because we have free will we can resist grace and refuse God's offer through repentant confession in Christ and lose our salvation. The problem is in fact, the extreme of this view believes we lose it every time we fall into sin and it is restored every time when we repent and confess, and finally that one can eventually obtain a state of sinless perfection while here on earth.
A third view, the Orthodox view (Catholic view) is that salvation is a process whereby we are continuously outworking our salvation until He returns and see Him face to face and even if once sincere, we can "fall away" (apostasize). In this view, salvation is more than a one time event, but a continued comittment (even though we occasionally may sin, no one being perfect save Christ, and for the Roman rite, Mary) that also involves certain works that testify that we are being saved. The works don't secure it, but rather demonstrate it. However, to refuse to be involved in them (say getting baptized or partaking of the Eucharist) demonstrates a disobedient spirit that is not "in Christ"! The problem here is your salvation depends on submtting to them (the Church) as the sole source and dispensers of that salvation.
The fourth view, which I believe is simply the Biblical teaching, is that God's providence and free will exist simultaneously, and that because God knows all things does not equal His causing all things. A sincere Father revealed and Spirit motivated faith in Christ, Son of the living God, and in His finished redemptive work on the cross and by His physical resurrection from the dead, results in salvation which is the gift of God, of which no man may boast, and that such a recipient of grace will produce good works. God will use them and work through them.
Now as to a more direct Scriptural answer to this question, Acts 2:38; Ephesians 2:9,10; and Titus 3:3-8 bear witness that our salvation "in Christ" is a gift. The Father so loved us that He gave His only begotten Son for our sakes (John 3:16; Isaiah 53), and in Roman's 6:23 we are clearly told that the payment due for our sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus. Eternal life is the life of Christ who was without beginning and is without end. It cannot be lost or extinguished, nor deserved by good works, or earned by efforts in the flesh. If we could obtain it by human effort even with the help of the Spirit there would be no need for Christ to have shed His blood. The Bible says without the shedding of blood there is no remission. Finally aside from the many Scriptures in which Jesus tells us that He will never leave us or forsake us, and that nothing or no one can pluck us out of His hand, and that assure us that we may know that we have eternal life, the Holy Spirit through the Apostle Paul promises us in Romans 11:29 that the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. Thus God does not make mistakes, and He knows them that are His. Of these He loses none, for when we are sealed by the Holy Spirit, we are sealed unto the day of redemption, which is the first ressurection, thus our salvation if indeed we were truly saved, cannot be lost, and the Lord will not take it back or change His mind (Rom. 11:29).
Sinless perfection and conditional immortality are both johnny come lately doctrines (18th to 19th century) that are nowhere to be found in the New Covenant or in first 2 or 3 centuries of Church writings. Therefore it was not what the Apostles taught their students. All who are predestined (because God in His foreknowledge knew they would respond to the measure of faith He planted) are called, chosen, justified, and will be glorified. He saved each while we were yet sinners and despite our occasional falling into sin after salvation has been gifted, not that the child of God continues in sin, nor habitually disobeys God, or willfully lives a life of sinning as they did when not saved. Now that does not mean you will never ever fall into sin for "If any man (even the saved) says they have no sin in their life (present tense), they are a liar", self decieved, and the truth is not in them (1 Johm 1:8)! But if you do sin you have an advocate with the Lord, Jesus Christ the Righteous (ha'Tzaddik - a title of ultimate honor among the Jews, the Tzaddik is one born to a generation that leads them to righteousness...in this case His Righteousness). This is the word of the Lord.
Thanks be to God it is not about what we do or not do or dependent on our ability to overcome Satan or maintain such an overcoming. Can you imagine the Lord knowing our weakness and enslavement once freeing us in the Spirit through Christ throwing the responsibiliy for our growth and development back onto our spirit-baby shoulders? Beginning in the Spirit then letting the end of it be in the flesh? God forbid! He overcame Satan and his package of sin, sickness, and death, for us on the cross, and because He rose from the dead we who are baptized into Christ are also raised to newness of life in Him. Not might be or will be so long as we succeed at defeating Satan in our lives by our own efforts, but "in Him" who has already overcome him. Our old man is judged, found wanting, and condemned with Christ. He will rear his ugly head unmtil the death of this fleshly tabernacle but ALL our sins, past, present and future, have been nailed to the cross "in Christ.". We are now a new creature in Christ. One new man. Heirs through the last Adam in whom is no sin. His merit is accounted to us as righteousness through faith. The faith of the Son of God. We are now in Him and He is in us...we are echad (one) just as He prayed in John 17. Our old man died in Him and we have been born of God. We who hold this faith are justified in Him just as father Abraham was justified, because we believe God (not just in God) and He imputes His Righteousness to us (Romans 3-5). When we stand before Him He will see Christ's shed blood and declare us righteous. Not by what we have done, but because of what He has done for us. It is not up to us (Titus 3:3-8) to deserve or earn it and we are not left to ourselves to maintain it. The Bible says, He who promised will also do it! And I am so grateful because if left up to me I would fail miserably.
So in conclusion, realizing their are slight variations according to where the Spirit has led each of us according to what He needs us prepared for (Ephesians 2:10), hyper-Calvanism can be fatalistic (no choice, no hope, a passive pawn, thus cooperative effort is futile), and hyper-Arminianism (saved, then lost, then saved agaion, then lost, then saved) recrucifies Christ over and over. In Orthodoxy, the Church eventually becomes the source of salvation, but aacording to the Tradition they accept equally with the word of God, without the Sacraments, which only they may administer, you are most likely doomed. But the word of God knows of none of these extremes or factions, and says that by grace (God's unmerited gift) the blood is sufficient, and keeping that faith, we have hope in the resurrection, that hope (expectation of what we KNOW will come to pass) is justified because Christ overcame the second death for us.
When He returns all that is imperfect shall pass away and we shall see Him as He is (1 Corinthians 13:8-13). We shall know even as we are fully known, and we shall be like Him. So accept the offer of the Gospel and get "in Christ" because "Christ in you" is "the hope of glory" and nothing else. So the answer to
"Can a Christian lose their salvation," is that if you are truly a Christian (born of the Spirit) you cannot lose your salvation, for sin will no longer be the rule but the exception, and the Spirit will convict you of your sin and you will feel the contrition that drives you to confession (agreement with God about our sin) through which He who cannot lie has promised that we will have the forgiveness and cleansing we desire. So have faith (trust in, rely on, and cleave to) in Christ, and know that "it is finished"! He knows them that are His, and of those He will lose none!
Your brother in Christ,
Paul
Posts: 235 | From: Cambridge, MA | Registered: Dec 2009
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