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Author
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Topic: the necessity of death
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Brother Paul
Advanced Member
Member # 7959
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posted
Thank you Lord you were neither extreme. That you are neither a Calvinist or an Arminian. That your truth includes both election and free will. I can't wait until we are all face to face with you at your return that we may all fully know even as we are known, but for now I fall on the side of Eden. Whosoever will may come. Those who will not are held responsible for their sin because they choose to reject God and be their own lord. To obey or not must be a choice or it is not genuine obedience. To love God must be an act of the will or it is not love. If it is otherwise then the first commandment is a terrible trick (God forbid)!
Brother Paul
Posts: 235 | From: Cambridge, MA | Registered: Dec 2009
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botham
Advanced Member
Member # 7935
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Thanks Eden--glad you took the information the way it was intended--my observations only. I do appreciate Christian writing that gets right down to it and treats God's Word as yes and amen. Nee seems to fit in here. Some people debate the total depravity approach to the flesh because if we're so totally depraved then God does all the work about salvation because we have zero good in us to even open the door to the Holy Spirit and so on. (please let's no go into this like that predestination thingy)
The opponents to the total depravity doctrine would say that God then, is behind everything in it's entirety from the beginning to the end. We are then but players, marionettes so to speak in a Cosmic, Eternal play wherein the script is written and free will, as we understand it, is not involved.
As you know by now I believe that God has created us free agents because He want us to freely come to Him as He draws us by His Holy Spirit.
I am thankful that the writings of Nee have helped you achieve an obvious deep belief and conviction. You have helped me in these conversations and made me think deeper into things. God bless you as you run the good race. Botham
Posts: 103 | From: canada | Registered: Nov 2009
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Eden
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posted
Hi, botham, you wrote quote:
What bothers me with any religious group is when a particular name, aside from Jesus Christ, becomes prominent on an ongoing basis. For instance, I like to read authors such as C.S. Lewis and others but I listen to what they say, take their points one way or the other according to how I see scripture, and that's about it.
I think that is always a good way to read, to take what I like and to leave the rest. You continued: quote:
This group looks to WN as a 'special' person and constantly references Nee, much like Adventists constantly reference White. To me it's wrong to place any fallible human in such esteem with respect to spiritual things. I hold St.Paul in very high esteem as one who was directly inspired by the Holy Spirit to give us God's Word. I hope you agree that this is at another level.
I do personally think that Watchman Nee (WN) was a very special person in the history of Christianity thus far, and that God revealed to WN
the true meaning of the book of Romans. I personally think that the book of Romans is one of THE most important books in the Bible, and God used Paul to write down the book of Romans for uss, as given to Paul by the Holy Spirit.
I realize that God used Paul to actually WRITE the book of Romans, but then God also had to use other people to INTERPRET the book of Romans for us.
We Christians ALL have the Holy Spirit inside of us, and potentially all of us can hear what the Holy Spirit is saying to the church, as clearly as Paul could hear the Holy Spirit.
That said, others beside WN have historically interpreted the book of Romans and the book of Romans is probably THE most written about individual book in the whole Bible.
So in my opinion, it fell to WN to discover or to be able to hear the MOST correct, and I think the TRUE understanding of the book of Romans, that has ever been produced thus far.
As such, there are of course all the authors of the Bible, inspired by the Holy Spirit, but for me personally right next to the Bible the most important Bible books are the books written by WN.
You also wrote quote:
But as people group together, especially to study scripture and live according to a specific teacher's ways, what then would we call this. One could call it a denomination or sect or such, could they not?
It is understandable to me that a group of believers may say, "You know what, why bother reading books which only deliver one-tenth of the meat compared to WN's books" and while I realize that that could sound a little cultish, it nevertheless makes sense from a practical point of view. Why eat a spiritual hamburger every day when I can eat spiritual filet mignon and lobster every day.
And if that means that Watchman Nee's name ends up being mentioned often within the group who is excited about Watchman Nee's writing (and justifiably excited in my opinion), then it is natural that WN's name is often mentioned as their hero who, in many cases, probably saved those Christians from a ho-hum Christian life and brought them into a vibrant and abundant Christian life by his teachings and knowledge of the Word, as Watchman Nee also did for me.
I think the problem comes in when "average" people with "average" teaching, like perhaps the Adventists or the Christian Monitor Scientists, et al., around whom then forms an undeserved cult.
But in a case when the person IS really special, as is the case with Watchman Nee who was mightily used of God, then it makes sense to me if people end up saying, "You know, why bother reading all these other books when you can read Watchman Nee's books and get much more out of it than almost any other Christian books available today", as in, "redeem the time and use it well".
You also wrote quote:
Another central theme is that "natural affections" toward family members and so on need to be repressed because these are counter to dying to Christ. Yes Jesus said that He should be first and there is no argument of course, but Jesus Christ has never impressed me in my spirit to do anything but love and support my daughter and her family.
I think this teaching is cultish becuase that's what cults do--they want your allegiance to the group, who they inevitably say has divine insight and is the only true way to worship and live for God.
That also sounds a bit "cultish" to me, for Jesus clearly said that we should love one another.
But let me repeat this part of the above statement to look at a bit closer: quote:
Another central theme is that "natural affections" toward family members and so on need to be repressed because these are counter to dying to Christ.
Actually that statement is NOT what WN teaches. WN teaches that God has already crucified us when Jesus was on the cross and that God put the believers in Christ when Jesus was on the cross. In other words, WN teaches that we do not need to TRY TO DIE because we ARE ALREADY DEAD since God already crucified us BACK THERE wtih Jesus on the cross.
So this idea of repressing the natural affections so that we may die for Christ, is the wrong approach and is NOT what WN teaches.
You also wrote: quote:
Another thing I read as I researched was that this group does not believe in having preachers as in most denominations. No single individual should have such spiritual leadership and so on. But is there not a contradiction when at their meetings, through references to Nee on a regular and ongoing basis, this single individual continues to hold inordinate influence?
Each group can of course do whatever they want is it helps the group grown in Christ. For instance, eventhough WN is DEAD, he DID leave behind a "library of books" which "still speak for him as if he was still alive, eventhough he is dead".
That is, if a preacher has taught a group on a consistent basis but has never put into books what he preached, then such a group would probably have to get themselves "another preacher." But if a preacher HAS put into books most of what he preached, then I think that such a preacher can "continue to preach through his books, as if he was still here".
I have never been to a meeting of the Living Stream Ministry (assuming that's the group you are talking about), but I can see where individuals in the group might rotate on a voluntary basis about what they have learned from WN's books and gets up on a rotating basis to speak about it to the group.
As I said earlier, when we are talking about a preacher whose insight into the Word was "most excellent" which was moreover set forth in books, then one might as well "go for the best books available" and get the most out of one's Christiantiy that one can get?
Since we have limited time in the day, it makes sense to me to go for the best books available, and I personally am reading the Bible and am using study tools like Strong's Concordance and I am using Watchman Nee's books, and that's about all I have needed so far to glean a rich spiritual experience, much more so than BEFORE a friend of mine sent me my first Watchman Nee book, The Normal Christian Life.
That book changed my Christian life like no other book (other than the Bible itself) had done so far; I was dispirited in my Christian life because I was undergoing my Romans 7 experience where God was showing me that I could put "no confidence in the flesh".
Now, it was easy to realize that I should have "no confidence" in my "bad" flesh, but a lot of Christians, myself included at that time, still think that "oh, but my 'good' flesh, I can still help God with that, and surely God does not mind that I keep my "good" flesh, surely that is still useful to God".
But Watchman Nee helped me understand that my entire flesh is like filthy rags, and that even my so-called "good" flesh is an abomination to God, and that God crucified ALl of my flesh on the cross with Jesus.
At that point I was able to put "no more confidence in the flesh" whatsoever, and I could say to God, "Okay then God, if the flesh cannot heal the flesh to the point that it is pleasing to You, then YOU must do all the changes in me through Your Holy Spirit, for else nothing new is going to happen in me".
And from that moment on, I began to change and truly enjoy my Christianity as I now entirely relied upon God, to trust Him every day that He would "instruct me and teach me in the way that I should go" and to "no longer lean on my own understanding".
It was through Watchman Nee that I learned this and he practically and singlehandedly "saved my Christian life" just when I was ready to "give up and say, 'this Christian life does not work'", and I am confident that it was GOD who caused my friend to send me that book, The Normal Christian Life, because God had revealed to His servant Watchman Nee the true meaning and understanding of the book of Romans, which for me is THE most important book in the New Testament (other than the gospels, of course).
Lastly you wrote quote:
So I'm not saying they are a cult--just that from my understanding, there are some features to look at.
Fair enough. I have never been to one of their meetings and do not plann to go to one of their meetings, but I hope and pray that they are doing well and are growing in Christ by the modus operandi that they are using.
love, Eden
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botham
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Member # 7935
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Hello Eden--yes the statement of faith sounds fine. What bothers me with any religious group is when a particular name, aside from Jesus Christ, becomes prominent on an ongoing basis. For instance, I like to read authors such as C.S. Lewis and others but I listen to what they say, take their points one way or the other according to how I see scripture, and that's about it.
This group looks to WN as a 'special' person and constantly references Nee, much like Adventists constantly reference White. To me it's wrong to place any fallible human in such esteem with respect to spiritual things. I hold St.Paul in very high esteem as one who was directly inspired by the Holy Spirit to give us God's Word. I hope you agree that this is at another level.
This group follows Nee's idea about having no denominations because, as Nee rightly observed, deonominationalism has been problematic to say the least. But as people group together, especially to study scripture and live according to a specific teacher's ways, what then would we call this. One could call it a denomination or sect or such, could they not?
Another central theme is that 'natural affections' toward family members and so on need to be repressed because these are counter to dying to Christ. Yes Jesus said that He should be first and there is no arguement of course, but Jesus Christ has never impressed me in my spirit to do anything but love and support my daughter and her family. I think this teaching is cultish becuase that's what cults do--they want your allegiance to the group, who they inevitably say has divine insight and is the only true way to worship and live for God.
Another thing I read as I researched was that this group does not believe in having preachers as in most denominations. No single individual should have such spiritual leadership and so on. But is there not a contradiction when at their meetings, through references to Nee on a regular and ongoing basis, this single individual continues to hold inordinate influence.
So I'm not saying they are a cult--just that from my understanding, there are some features to look at.
God bless, Botham
Posts: 103 | From: canada | Registered: Nov 2009
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Eden
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hello again, botham, I "googled" Living Stream Ministry and saw that they publish and distribute books by Watchman Nee AND by Witness Lee. I confess to never having read any of Witness Lee's books.
But below I post Living Stream Ministry's Statement of Faith, with which I found no fault; do you?
Statement of Faith [ Back to top ]
Living Stream uses the following to express its Statement of Faith:
Holding the Bible as the complete and only divine revelation, we strongly believe that God is eternally one and also eternally the Father, the Son, and the Spirit, the three being distinct but not separate. We hold that Christ is both the complete God and the perfect man. Without abandoning His divinity, He was conceived in the womb of a human virgin, lived a genuine human life on earth, and died a vicarious and all-inclusive death on the cross. After three days He resurrected bodily and has ascended to the heavens. He is now in glory, fully God but still fully man. We look to His imminent return with the kingdom of God, by which He will reign over the earth in the millennium and in eternity. We confess that the third of the Trinity, the Spirit, is equally God. All that the Father has and is, is expressed by the Son; and all that the Son has and is, is realized as the Spirit. We further believe that mankind is in need of God's salvation. Though we were absolutely unable to fulfill the heavy demands of God's righteousness, holiness, and glory, Christ fulfilled all the requirements through His death on the cross. Because of Christ's death, God has forgiven us of our sins, reconciled us to Himself, and justified us by making Christ our righteousness. Based on Christ's redemption, God regenerates the redeemed with His Spirit to consummate His salvation, that they may become His children. Now possessing God's life and nature, the believers enjoy a daily salvation in His Body in this age and the eternal salvation in the coming age and in eternity. In eternity we will dwell with God in the New Jerusalem, the consummation of God's salvation of His elect.
I also read that "Witness Lee aka Li Chang-Chou (1907-1997), a co-worker of Watchman Nee who worked with him in 1933."
Just because WL someone worked with Watchman Nee does not mean that WL later did not go his own way, with his own studies and his own opinions and conclusions led to his own ways of experiencing, etc., which can sufficiently divert from what Watchman Nee taught and/or intended.
I see from the website that W. Lee wrote a number of his own books, which I have never read, but I have heard over the years that W. Lee is regarded by a number of scholars as a cultist of some sort.
At this time I have no intention of reading any of W. Lee's books, but if anyone knows of anything specific that W. Lee assert that is regarded as cultist, I'd be interested in reading what it is that is so objectionable.
But I do find it a bit odd that Living Stream Ministry would distribute books by BOTH Watchman Nee AND Witness Lee, IF Witness Lee is in fact a cultist, considering that I have read about 6 Watchman Nee books so far and have NEVER found anything REMOTELY RESEMBLING a cultist statement in those 6 Watchman Nee books.
And I am pretty sensitive/aware of how cultists operate and of the kinds of things they say, since I was in a couple of cults myself before I became a bornagain Christian.
love, Eden the merchant of Chilmad
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Eden
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Hi, botham, thanks for the above post, before I look more into the Living Stream Ministry, may I ask you beforehand if Watchman Nee HIMSELF ever was an actual member of that ministry, or did WN die before that ministry arose?
If WN died before that ministry arose, one can hardly hold WN accountable for whatever someone like Witness Lee might later do with WN's teaching, right? I mean, there have always been cultist people with a "messiah complex" who end up twisting another man's fine work to fit their own egocentric purposes.
Like I said, I don't know anything about Witness Lee, and I'll look at the Living Stream Ministry later, but I wanted to ask you preliminarily if Watchman Nee HIMSELF was ever a member of that ministry, or did WN die long before that ministry arose?
thanks, my friend, hope you are having some fine holidays, in Jesus.
Be blessed, Eden the merchant of Chilmad ![[Cross]](graemlins/cross.gif)
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botham
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Member # 7935
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Thanks Eden--If I'm not mistaken Paul was admonishing the various factions to stop accentuating this name or that and concentrate only on Jesus.
It just seems to me that whenever an auxilliary name keeps popping up, such as Russel with the JW's or White with Adventists or Smith with the LDS that it leans to a cult. I'm sure there are other examples that I don't know of.
Please look up Living Stream Ministry and you will see that WN and WL are the central people in what can only be termed a denomination. Yes they deride the term 'denomination' but they are organized and have all the characteristics of a denomination using WN's ideas and even have a special version of the bible. This church asks people not to have 'affections' for family members and cults often try to foster allegiance to a person (WN) or their view of things to the exclusion even of family. Jesus did say that He was to be worshipped first and foremost but on the Cross He asked someone to look after His mother because He obviously honored her and had affection toward her.
On one of the sites there is even a long description about how to counteract people such as myself who would bring opposition to their ideas.
So I'm not saying that WN is a fraud at all. I respect him greatly for standing firm in his belief even while persecuted.
I would separate the writings of Paul and WN in a virtical fashion because the bible is the direct inspiration of The Holy Spirit while WN interprets the bible. WN is right to take a strong stance about the divisivness throughout the history of the church that resulted in persecution and murder.
But let's leave it at that and look to scripture using our own spiritual discernmant, referencing helpful authors from time to time on appreciation of their insights. We should be careful to remember that WN is a human being and should not be held in such high esteem that we begin to see our Lord Jesus Christ through the prism of his finite, fallible mind. WN should just be honored for his unwavering stand as should all who do so. God bless, Botham
Posts: 103 | From: canada | Registered: Nov 2009
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Eden
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hello, botham, thanks for your posts. You wrote quote:
... whenever a particular person's name, aside from Jesus Christ of course, arises again and again in conversation within the ranks of members of an organized denomination, it leans to a cult. (I know that part of WN's central message was that there should be no denominations as such but I needed to use a word.)
Dear botham, I don't think that is true. I am very sure that the name of Paul came up, uhh, again and again, in the days of Paul's preaching, and that by your definition above would make Paul and all who were associated with him, a cult. You may remember that Paul wrote:
1 Corinthians 1:12
Now this I say, that everyone of you says, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.
1 Corinthians 3:5
Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom you believed, even as the Lord gave to every man?
Botham, you also wrote, quote:
And whenever a person sets themselves up as a 'special' person to impart God's true revelation to us, well, that about does it. It's a cult.
God did give a "special revelation" to Paul, and in my opinion God also revealed to Watchman Nee the most correct understanding of the book of Romans that I have found so far, and I am greatly indebted to Watchman Nee for his insight into scripture.
Also remember that Watchman Nee spend, I think, some 35 years in prison for his religious "beliefs" in Communist China, and so WN and ample opportunity to pray and meditate on the Word (to the extent that he had access to the Word). I believe he also states somewhere how many times he has read through the Bible. So I honor him for his work for Christ.
As for Witness Lee, I don't know the man and am not interested in knowing. However, the little that I have heard about a "Witness Lee" has been that he was a cultist.
Lastly, you wrote quote:
Also Eden, it seems that your insights about the triune nature of man are from Watchman Nee. My advice to anyone falling under church authority other than the Name Above All Names, Jesus Christ, is to turn away. Watchman Nee is simply another believer who thought, like many others, that they were special.
He was special, just as Peter, Paul, John, Luke, Mark, Matthew, and the Old Testament heroes were special. But I know of no instance in Watchman Nee's books in which he proposes that he is special; whether he was special should be left to the judgment of other believers, and I for one am very grateful for what I've learned from reading his books.
Lastly, you wrote quote:
But you sound solid, Eden.
If there be any solidness in me ("thou sayest"), most of that solidness has come from what I've learned through brother Watchman Nee's books, I thank him very much.
love, Eden
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botham
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I took the liberty of doing a little research on Watchman Nee, Witness Lee et al. It will be no surprise to Eden that many view these people as cultist.
I did not see anything that troubled me to a great extent as to the particular. Yes there's a 'but' and it is this: whenever a particular person's name, aside from Jesus Christ of course, arises again and again in conversation within the ranks of members of an organized denomination, it leans to a cult.(I know that part of WN's central message was that there should be no denominations as such but I needed to use a word).
And whenever a person sets themselves up as a 'special' person to impart God's true revelation to us, well, that about does it. It's a cult.
Also Eden, it seems that your insights about the triune nature of man are from Watchman Nee. My advice to anyone falling under church authority other than the Name Above All Names, Jesus Christ, is to turn away. Watchman Nee is simply another believer who thought, like many others, that they were special.
But you sound sold. God bless, Botham
Posts: 103 | From: canada | Registered: Nov 2009
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Luc A C
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Member # 7921
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posted
By the way, I realy like what I am reading. Continue with the good work, both you Eden and Botham. This really makes me think.
I know I am saved but I am discouraged many time on how I continue to struggle with sin in my body. The passages that keep me going is what Paul wrote in Romans 7 and the rest of Romans. Even the accounts of Jesus himself struggling with temptation is encouraging to me. Though He did not give in to temptation He knows what everyone of use is going through. As long as we live in these bodies we will always struggle. Struggle is not that bad when you know at the end all has been accomplished through Christ.
It’s sort of like the hard work my wife does trying to keep up with cleaning after our three boys. Some days it seams there will be no end to this cleaning the floors, washing the dishes, washing there dirty clothes and so on. But for encouragement she must once and a while step back and remind herself that one of these days the boys will move out, and that is coming a lot faster then we think, and she will not have all this work to do anymore, she will finally be able to rest. Well sort of, she still will have to deal with me. (-:
It is like that with those who live in Christ. Through Him we are dead to sin but as long we continue to live in these mortal bodies we will continue to struggle with sin. We can be encouraged that the day that these bodies will die we will no longer have these struggles, for through Christ sin has been put away forever.
Does this makes sense?
Have a good day.
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Let use not interpret the Bible in a way that it would suit the way we want to live, but let use interpret the Bible in a way God wants us to live.
Posts: 15 | From: Ontario, Canada | Registered: Nov 2009
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Luc A C
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Member # 7921
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posted
foreknowledge
foreknowledge [fawr nóllij]
n
knowledge of something before it happens: knowledge or awareness that something is going to happen, either from information that has been acquired, or by paranormal means
Does God foreknow from information He has acquired or does He foreknow by paranormal means?
I believe He is the best detective and He is able to foreknow what will happen just with the information He has acquired. I also believe He has the ability to foreknow by paranormal means.
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Let use not interpret the Bible in a way that it would suit the way we want to live, but let use interpret the Bible in a way God wants us to live.
Posts: 15 | From: Ontario, Canada | Registered: Nov 2009
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botham
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Hello Eden--first let me say that I do not intend to challenge in any way, your obvious sincere beliefs in Christ. You are a true defender of the faith and a learned man in this respect.
The doctine of predestination in it's purest form, as taught by Calvin is that God in His omnipotence and onminscience foreordains all things including who would be saved. I don't think that you believe this.
I do not believe this and it so troubles me that I won't entertain even a notion that God has not created us with free agency. We are certainly not puppets and if one has the freedom to do good or evil and God does not intervene in the evil that He knew would happen(using the theory that God has only given us limtited freedom and knows all that we will do), then He, God is violating His main attribute, that of Love.
There are many examples in the bible, to put it most crudely, where God changes His mind. Notably, He did not destroy the whole world as He initally was prone to do, but chose to keep some people alive during the flood. The destruction of Soddom was negotiated. Creation has always received Grace abundantly.
We cannot ever allow ourselves to think that we know in any way who will or will not be saved. ALL must reain ALL.
The emphasis that Watchman Nee seems to place on God's foreknowledge about who would be saved and His virtual diatribe about the hopelessness and absolute depravity of the flesh is very close to John Calvin's idea of predestination. Please look it up for yourself.
This body is wonderfully conceived, wonderfully made by God and fit to receive His very Holy Spirit. I will say again that what Watchman Nee says about attaining a state before God where we live in the total submission without sinning is a goal, likely a reaction to seeing saved people living miserably.
This body does offend me too much and I look forward to putting on the incorruptible. I will never wonder if I am saved for like you, I know it. I will never let the nagging thought enter my mind when I share Christ "is this person destined for heaven or hell". I know that Christ died for them and I think you, Eden, believe this also.
So to sum up, I think that God can choose with His omnipotence to create totally free agents. Lucifer might be a good example of this. If God knew that Lucifer would do what he did then why would God create this anarchistic angel in the first place?
It seems to contradict the word omniscience but if we kick it up a notch, would it not make God even more mysterious and grand to think that He would grant us this sublime freedom to choose as we want, pray as we want and yes risk for us to sin as we want. God bless, Botham
Posts: 103 | From: canada | Registered: Nov 2009
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Eden
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Hi, botham, you wrote quote:
This author is obviously a believer in the terribly mistaken doctrine of predestination.
Dear botham, I don't know anything about the doctrine of predestination, and I don't think that Watchman Nee believes in that either.
Speaking only for myself, I do believe that God foreknew who would accept and keep believing in His Son during their lifetime, until death.
And since God foreknew who that would be, God put those believers, not on the cross, but in Jesus who was also on the cross.
This does not mean that anyone was "predestined" by God to believe in His Son, it simply means that God foreknew who, during their lifetime, would accept Jesus and God put those IN Jesus while Jesus was on the cross.
The other descendants of Adam and Eve whom God foreknew would not accept Jesus were also put on the cross and they "died on the cross".
Those who were put by God IN Jesus also rose with Jesus, being in Jesus when He rose. But those unbelievers who were on the cross itself, died and did not rise again when Jesus rose.
So I don't know what that has to do with predestination; I certainly think that God would foreknow who would believe in His Son and who wouldn't, botham.
Romans 11:2
God has not cast away his people whom He foreknew.
love, Eden
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botham
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Thank you Eden for this post taken largely from Watchman Nee.
This author is obviously a believer in the terribly mistaken doctrine of predestination. If you want to, please research the roots of it and you will run into a man named Calvin. I have said it before, but it bears repeating--that Calvin was simply a religious dictator who murdered people by burning them at the stake for the heinous crime of disagreeing with him.
As to the central theme of your post, it being to believe deeply that there is no good in the flesh and that it has already been crucified with Christ, in the highest spiritual sense this is true. It is one of the great paradoxes that true freedom, the freedom presented to us by God through His Son, is attainable only by becoming a total slave to the ultimate liberation in the death of the flesh.
Please don't think me cynical to say that there is no living human being except Jesus Christ who has ever attained this. It is our quest! To think that one can ever live in a society with other human beings without ever becoming angry or ever noticing the beauty of a woman and on and on is to be deluded.
The point is, as I see it, to stop thinking that I can become good enough for God through works or think myself into becoming less sinful in my attitudes and actions about myself and other people. This has been accomplished on the Cross, so the thing I need to do is to pray more and more that God bring me to the revelation that the Holy Spirit want all of me. The level of trust needed to let go comes from believing the Word of God without doubt.
I intend no offence but I have lived long enough and have never seen a person who has laid aside all desires of the flesh. I have, thanks to God, read extensively and heard many times about One who did. God bless, Botham
Posts: 103 | From: canada | Registered: Nov 2009
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Eden
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THE NECESSITY FOR DEATH (adapted from Watchman Nee, The Spiritual Man
The more a believer is enlightened by the Holy Spirit into understanding something about the pitiful condition of his flesh, to that extent will the struggle with the flesh intensify. And the more often will be manifested his failures.
He will be shown more of the sin and frailty of his flesh in order that he may be aroused to an increased indignation at himself and an ardent determination to contend with the sin in his flesh.
Such a chain reaction may continue protractedly until at last, through experiencing the deeper work of the cross, he is delivered. Struggle and failure will supply just that.
Although a believer may agree mentally with God's assessment that his flesh is corrupted to the core and irredeemable and irreparable, the believer nevertheless may still not accurately appreciate the defilement and corruptness of his flesh.
While the believer would never say so, he still tries to tinker with his flesh, to try to repair and refine and improve the flesh.
Many believers, ignorant of the crucifixion to which God has assigned the flesh, try to conquer the flesh by battling it. They think that victory will depend upon the measure of power that they have.
These believers therefore earnestly anticipate that God will grant them increased spiritual power to enable them to subdue their flesh.
Their battle normally extends over a long period, marked by more defeats than victories, until finally it seems to them that complete victory over the flesh is unattainable.
They did not mean to curse when that car cut them off, but they heard themselves curse, again. They did not mean to lose their temper just then, but they noticed that they did lose their temper just then, again, just like the last time.
During this period the believer continues on the one hand to wage war on the flesh and on the other he tries to improve or discipline his flesh.
He prays, he searches the Bible, he sets up many rules ("do not handle, do not taste, do not touch"), in the vain hope of subduing and taming the flesh:
Colossians 2:21
"Touch not; taste not; handle not".
He thinks that maybe the evil of his flesh is due to a lack of rules, education and that the flesh is just not civilized enough. "If only he could give his flesh more spiritual training," he thinks, "then he will be freed from its trouble." But he does not understand yet that such treatment is useless.
Because the Christian mixes a desire to destroy the flesh while concurrently trying to refine the flesh, the Holy Spirit must allow the believer to strive, to be defeated, and then to suffer under self-accusation.
Only after he has had this experience over and over again will the believer realize that the flesh is irredeemable and irreparable and that his methods are futile. He then will begint o search out another kind of salvation.
If a child of God faithfully and honestly entreats the Holy Spirit to reveal God's holiness to him so that he may know his flesh by that light, the Spirit will certainly do so. Henceforth such a believer might be spared many sufferings. But such believers are few.
Most believers still trust in their own methods, assuming that not all of their flesh is that bad. Therefore, in order to correct this incorrect assumption, the Holy Spirit patiently leads believers into experiencing little by little the futility of their own devices as they try to alternately "crucify" the very same flesh that they are trying to "refine".
However, we cannot repair, regulate, or educate the flesh, because none of our methods will ever alter the corrupt nature of the flesh:
John 3:6
That which is born of the flesh is flesh; but that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Some flesh is very corrupt, while other flesh is educated and more refined; but it is still all flesh, and Paul writes:
Romans 7:18
For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh), dwells no good thing: for to will [to do good] is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I have not found.
What then can be done? It must be done God's way: the flesh must die. That is God's way. We would prefer to tame the flesh by striving with it, by changing it, by exercising our will, by praying for more grace, and by innumerable other means.
But God's prescription for the flesh is death, and not repairing or refining the flesh.
If the flesh is dead, are not all problems solved? The flesh cannot be conquered; it therefore must die. This is also most reasonable when we consider how we became flesh in the first place: "that which is born of the flesh is flesh." We became flesh by being born of it, and now the exit from the flesh is by dying.
Galatians 2:20
I am crucified with Christ ...
The way of possessing life is by losing our life. God does not attempt to change it. There is no method of deliverance other than putting the flesh to death. Even the precious blood of the Lord Jesus cannot cleanse the flesh. We find in the Bible that His blood washes our sin away but the blood never washes our flesh. Our flesh must be crucified:
Galatians 5:24
And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
Not repaired and upgraded and refined, but crucified, put to death.
The Holy Spirit does not bother to reform the flesh. The Holy Spirit abides in the believer, not for the purpose of improving the flesh, but for warring against the flesh.
Exodus 30:32
Upon man's flesh shall it [the anointing] not be poured ...
How absurd it is then for us to frequently pray for the Lord to pleas make us good and loving so that we may serve Him! We should never try to repair the flesh to make it cooperate with the Spirit of God because the goal of the Spirit of God is help us learn that God has put our flesh to death:
Romans 6
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
11 Likewise reckon yourselves also to be dead indeed unto sin ...
The Christian needs to understand that God has already consigned everything, including all the people, that came out of Adam and nailed all that to the cross, while Jesus was ON the cross. We don't need to crucify ourselves again, God has already done it way back there when all that came from Adam was nailed to the cross.
But thankfully, through His foreknowledge, God knew WHO would accept His Son's sacrifice for sins, and God put THOSE people INSIDE Jesus WHILE Jesus was on the cross; they are still going to die IN Jesus, but they will also rise again WITH Jesus:
1 Corinthians 1:30
Forof Him are you in Christ Jesus ...
So the job of the Holy Spirit inside of the believer is NOT to "make the believer into nicer person" but to get the believer to realize that the flesh is too corrupt to repair:
Romans 7
22 Now, I delight in the law of God after the inward man,
23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
The Holy Spirit will continue to get the believer to realize that the flesh is irreparable, until the believer, after numerous defeats, finally cries out in despair, "This Christianity does not work! I keep trying to be good, but I find something inside of me which keeps me from being good!" And then the believer finally cries out:
Romans 7
24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
Who indeed? God shall deliver him from this body of death:
Romans 7
14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
15 For that which I do, I don't want to do; and what I would like to do, that I don't do; but what I hate, that I do.
16 If then I do that which I don't want to do, I consent unto the law that it is good.
17 But then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwells in me.
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) dwells no good thing: for to will [to do good] is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I cannot find.
19 For the good that I want to do I don't do; but the evil which I don't want to do, that I do.
20 Now if I do that I don't want to do, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwells in me.
21 I find then a law, that when I would do good, evil is present within me.
22 For I do delight in the law of God after the inward man;
23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24 O wretched man that I am! Who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
The sooner we realize that we cannot repair, fix, upgrade, improve, refine, or make the flesh look a bit nicer, the better it is. When we finally see it, we cry out to God, "Okay God, I give up! If there is going to be ANY change in me, YOU are going to have to do it, because I now see that the flesh is too corrupt to repair itself.
I will therefore STOP TRYING and unless YOU, God, do something, I'm not going to change.
Okay, now God has us where He wants us. Why and how? Because by His foreknowledge, God knew who of Adam's descendants would accept Jesus's sacrifice on the cross, and when God nailed all of the old creation of Adam and Eve to the cross while Jesus was on the cross, God put the believers IN Jesus while Jesus was on the cross:
1 Corinthians 1:30 Of Him are you in Christ Jesus ...
And while Jesus was in the grave, WE were in the grave with Jesus. And because Jesus also ROSE from the grave, WE rose with Jesus so that now we are alive unto God:
Romans 6:11
Likewise reckon yourselves also to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
So what do we do now? Now we no longer try to refine and educate the flesh, no, we instead begin to listen to the counsel of resurrected Jesus who is in heaven, but who as head of the body of the church, now counsels us from heaven by way of the Holy Spirit. This is the way that God has devised, not repairing our flesh, but already crucifying our flesh:
Romans 6:11
Likewise reckon yourselves also to be dead unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
We cannot look to the flesh anymore for sanctification; we've already tried that already and we saw how that turned out.
All that is left that we now say to God, "Okay, God, guide my steps and instruct me and teach me in the way that I should go, from now until I die":
Psalm 32:8
I will instruct you and teach you in the way which you shall go: I will guide you with My eye.
Isaiah 28:26
For his God does instruct him to discretion and does teach him.
Psalm 48:14
For this God is our God forever and ever: He will be our guide even unto death.
This is the way of sanctification: realizing that praying for more power to reform and improve the flesh, is hopeless. Instead, God has already crucified us when Jesus was on the cross. We do not need to STRIVE to be crucified, we ARE already crucified.
What is left to us then now that we have been made "alive unto God"? How do things operate THERE? All we have left then is to listen to what Jesus counsels to us from heaven, by way of the Holy Spirit to our spirit of man, which in turn instructs our soul what to do, so that:
Galatians 2:20
I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ lives in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
1 Corinthians 15:10
And by the grace of God I am what I am; and His grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I labored more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.
love, Eden
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