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Author
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Topic: the fleshly, carnal believer and the spiritual believer
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Eden
unregistered
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posted
Hi, Luc A C, you wrote quote:
I was not to sure about the part where you said God would drive us by the Spirit to where the best sales are. I guess we must trust God in all things no matter how insignificant we might think it is.
One time I went to a store that dealt in leftover lots of anything, to see if they had something good to drink for our group camping trip. So the Holy Spirit "drove me to that store" just in time to see an employee of the store unpack a whole case of light pink strawberry champagne, and I said, "Oh, you can put them all back into the case please, they are for me". Thank You, Lord. ![[roll on floor]](graemlins/6.gif) ![[Kiss]](graemlins/Kiss.gif)
love, Eden
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Luc A C
Community Member
Member # 7921
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posted
I really do like this post, thank you so very much. Truly something to think about. I was not to sure about the part where you said God would drive us by the Spirit to where the best sales are. I guess we must trust God in all things no matter how insignificant we might think it is.
Thank you again.
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Let use not interpret the Bible in a way that it would suit the way we want to live, but let use interpret the Bible in a way God wants us to live.
Posts: 15 | From: Ontario, Canada | Registered: Nov 2009
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Eden
unregistered
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posted
The only way that I know of who to do it is to say to God, "Okay, Lord, I will trust by faith that You will guide my steps today by Your Holy Spirit, as You promised in the Bible", and then just try to be quiet and remain at peace and then whatever thoughts come to me as I am going about my daily life, I assume that those thoughts and counsels about any given moment, are coming from God.
We know that when Jesus was on earth, He was DRIVEN by the Holy Spirit to go here or there, and to say and do as the Holy Spirit showed Him.
Likewise with us, the Holy Spirit "drives" us to go to this store or that store, or to the balcony because I stupidly had left my sunglasses there (thank You, Lord), or to reach a store in time just when they are putting out a sale that I was looking for, or to say a certain thing to somebody, and above all, the Lord is a Gentleman, so He will guide us to be helpful and considerate and to smile and to be meeker, and all that good stuff.
And this, just like we believed for salvation, we by faith believe that God meant it when God said in Psalms that He would "instruct us" and "teach us in which way to go", and we just have to believe by faith that God, by the Holy Spirit, will "drive" us to all the places that we need to go and to cause us to say all the things that we need to say and do during each day.
Because we cannot see God, we have to trust that God will really instruct us and teach us and guide our steps from moment to moment, and that He leads us beside quiet waters and into green pastures and that He will prepare a table for us in the midst of our enemies.
That's why Jesus said,
Mark 11:22
And Jesus said to them, Have faith in God.
Exodus 14:13
And Moses said to the people, Do not be afraid, stand still and see the salvation of the LORD, which He will show you today ...
Matthew 10:19
But when they deliver you up, take no thought how or what you shall speak: for it shall be given to you in that same hour what you shall speak.
I'm not saying it's easy; when a crisis comes, I can still throw a good panic about it, just like the Israelites at the Red Sea.
But when there's no panic on more normal days, we can say to the Lord in the morning when we're awake, "Lord, please guide my steps today and instruct me and teach me which way I should go", and then just trust that whatever "comes to me" is the counsel from the Lord, for me to do and say.
And that's it. It's a faith thing again, that God will really do it. And I can only "remain quiet" as long as I trust that God will REALLY think and do and say what I should do next at any given moment,as the resurrected Jesus in heaven relays His Counsel by way of the Holy Spirit in me, which in turn relays His Counsel to my spirit, which in turn relays it to my soul.
And then it's up to me, the soul, whether I do and say what Jesus thru the Holy Spirit had said I should do and say next, because without instructions from the head, the body is dumb:
Ephesians 1:22
And He {God the Father} has put all things under His {Jesus's) feet, and gave Him {Jesus) to be the head over all things to the church.
We trust and remain quiet as we expect that the LORD WILL tell us what we should do next, by way of the Holy Spirit, no matter where we are and what we are currently doing, even in the most basic of daily things, God who can see all things from above in heaven, will give us His Very Best Answers, for everything; and "drive us by the Spirit" to where the best sales are, how to respond in the kindest way, and so on, and He will also ask us to please pick up that piece of trash. Because God is a Gentleman.
love, Eden
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botham
Advanced Member
Member # 7935
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posted
Mentors R--my view is that if we were all truly honest, as we should be before God, we would admit the same as you do. Eden proposes an ideal that should be strived for and then even the word 'strive' is contradictory to what we should do--stop striving and just trust.
But what words do we use then? It is my humble opinion that we have to put aside many ambitions and just listen and be still before God. It is so hard to do though. But still, I agree with you that Eden has posted an excellent bit of writing and scripture and I receive it as Godly admonishment to meditate upon. God bless, Botham
Posts: 103 | From: canada | Registered: Nov 2009
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MentorsRiddle
Advanced Member
Member # 2108
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posted
Eden,
Such a wonderful post!
Just today I was reading on a similar topic which I believe I sent you a private message about that speaks about man actually existing as a tri-part being: spirit, soul and body.
[u]1 Thessalonians Chapter 5, v23[/u] reads, And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
As we can see from the scripture above, Paul very directly defined the three parts of man: The body, spirit and soul each existing a separate piece but part of the same whole of man.
In your post we can see how the Corinthian were so similar to the church today not all, but many and how the apostles would have viewed followers of Christ today.
I feel sad in my heart when I read this because I know that even after all this time I still exist as a fleshly believer.
I do listen to the spirit and am not as much of a fleshly believer as I used to be but I know I still let my soul rule part of me, which is sad.
Maybe I need to do a little more prayer to God for his counsel instead of listening to my soul.
Amen?
God Bless and thanks for the post.
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With you I rise,
In you I sleep,
kneeling down I kiss your feet,
Grace abounds upon me now,
I once was lost
but now I'm found.
The gift of God dwells within,
To this love I now give in.
Posts: 1337 | From: Arkansas | Registered: Sep 2003
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botham
Advanced Member
Member # 7935
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posted
Thank you Eden--this is like a Christmas present for anyone who will take the time to read. Your conviction here is so distinct and with your writing skills I hope that you consider a book.
Any Christian who is a true believer in the redemption of the Cross and the concept of regeneration has experienced the inner battle that inevitably follows conversion.
We need to grow up in the likeness of Jesus Christ and take direction from St. Paul and the other great examples of Godly people in the bible.
The common feature of these saints is there utter reliance on God and belief in the supernatural activity in the spirit realm.
There is Power at work on our behalf that is available only on God's terms. His terms are, as you say Eden, that we stop relying on this soul, especially in the early after redemption years when the stains of sin though washed in the Blood are still vibrant and near memories. Addicted people, though no worse in the sight of God than the little old lady who bakes cookies for children, are a good example.(that's me) The principalities and powers strategize to remind one of failures, to limit the experience of renewal by every measure possible.
So it is critical that we believe absolutely that our faith in Jesus Christ who is Spirit and the One who has all authority in Heaven and material existence, is the path to victory.
It seems too easy to use the Name of the Holy Spirit in a luke warm fashion. This One who has been dispatched to us at such a Precious Price has the entire Glory of God for our lives. But we must have faith that our tendencies to sinful behaviour are beyond the power of our will alone to overcome. Powers and principalities are as nothing to our Holy Spirit and we must rely on happenings beyond our comprehension at another level on our behalf. Blessed Christmas to all, Botham
Posts: 103 | From: canada | Registered: Nov 2009
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Brother Paul
Advanced Member
Member # 7959
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posted
Great Article Eden...thanks for the blessing, and merry Christmas.
Looking at Him,
Brother Paul
Posts: 235 | From: Cambridge, MA | Registered: Dec 2009
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Eden
unregistered
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posted
The Fleshly, Carnal Believer and the Spiritual Believer, (adapted from Watchman Nee, The Spiritual Man)
All believers could, like Paul, be filled with the Holy Spirit at the moment of belief and baptism (cf. Acts 9:17-18). Unfortunately many believers, eventhough they are believers, they are still controlled by the flesh as though they are not yet crucified with Jesus on the cross and are not yet raised up with Jesus in the resurrection.
As believers they should decide that Jesus, as head of the church in heaven, can see everything on earth and thus that Jesus can give me, the soul, better solutions and answers to life than the soul can.
But the soul is in the habit of ruling by itself, so this tendency of the soul to rule the body by itself without input from man's spirit has to die and the soul must begin to live to God, meaning, must trust that Jesus, the head of the church in heaven, has better answers for my life, than I the soul have for my life, and hence I turn to listen to the Holy Spirit, by faith.
A fleshly or carnal Christian is one who has believed that Jesus died for his sins on the cross and that Jesus rose from the dead on the third day, but this fleshly Christian continues to operate his body from the soul level.
Now, eventhough this Christian is fleshly, according to the Apostle Paul, he is still a believer:
1 Corinthians 3
1-3 But I, brethren, could not address you as spiritual men, but as men of the flesh, as babes in Christ. I fed you with milk, not with solid food; for you were not ready for it; and even now are you not ready, for you are still of the flesh. For while there is jealousy and strife among you, are you not of the flesh, and behaving like ordinary men?
A Christian believer should only be a babe in Christ for about 4 years, and then he should be weaned from the elementals of Christianity and be well on his way to undoing the habit of the soul running his body without any input from his spirit.
That is, I am weaned from operating my body from my soul level and I, the soul, now die daily from the practice of trying to operate my life from the soul level, from self.
And I am now by faith trusting that Jesus is counseling me from heaven of what I should say and do next. Then the believer is no longer "in the flesh" or still a fleshly believer, but that babe in Christ has moved on to become a spiritual believer; this should be the normal condition of a Christian after a couple of years.
But in practice, most believers stay fleshly believers; that is, they are abnormal in that, eventhough they believe that Jesus died for their sins on the cross and they believe that Jesus rose from the dead, yet these fleshly or carnal believers continue to operate their body from the soul or flesh without input from Jesus in heaven who is the head of the church, by way of the Holy Spirit which is not in that believer.
Listen to what Paul said of the Corinthian believers: But I, brethren, could not address you as spiritual men, but as men of the flesh, as babes in Christ. I fed you with milk, not with solid food; for you were not ready for it; and even yet you are not ready, for you are still of the flesh. For while there is jealousy and strife among you, are you not of the flesh, and behaving like ordinary men? (I Cor. 3.1-3)
The Apostle Paul divided all Christians into two classes: the spiritual believer and the fleshly or carnal believer. The spiritual Christians are not extraordinary; they are normal, what should be there state after for a while being babes in Christ.
It is the fleshly believers who are actually abnormal. Those at Corinth were indeed Christians but they were fleshly, not spiritual. Three times in this chapter Paul declares they were men of the flesh.
Biblical regeneration is a birth by which the innermost part of man's being, the deeply hidden spirit, is renewed and indwelled by the Spirit of God.
But it requires time for the soul to relinquish its habit of operating its own life, and the soul and body are strong, filled with sins of the flesh.
A spiritual Christian who is trying to undo the habit of his own soul to run his life, and to start listening by faith to Jesus counseling him from heaven by way of the Holy Spirit, in that spiritual Christian the battle is raging:
Galatians 5:17
For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary to one another: so that you cannot do the things that you would.
But in a fleshly believer, there is no such struggle because the believer is still fleshly, meaning the believer is continuing to run his own life from the soul level without any input from his spirit, which alone can hear what the Spirit of God's counsel is.
Although a newly born believer or babe in Christ proceeds faithfully, loving the Lord and distinguishing himself in zeal, he still needs more time for opportunities to know more of the wickedness of sin and of soul rule and of occasions to know more of the will of God and the way of the spirit.
However much he may love the Lord or love the truth of God, this new believer still walks initially in the realm of feelings and thoughts of the soul life that he was used to, not yet having been tested and refined by fire.
A newly born Christian cannot help being fleshly. Though having access to the Holy Spirit that is in him, the Bible does not expect new Christians to be spiritual instantaneously. But after learning the elementals of Christianity, they should be weaned off soul operation and should be well on their way to listening instead what Jesus is counseling them to say and do, from heaven, at all moments.
Ephesians 5:23
For the husband is the head of the wife, even asChrist is the head of the church; and He is the saviour of the body.
Galatians 4
3 Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world.
9 But now, after that you have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn you again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto you desire again to be in bondage?
But if they remain babes in Christ after many years, then this situation is very pitiful indeed. Paul poined out to the Corinthians that he had treated them as men of the flesh earlier because they were still newborn babes in Christ.
But that by the time of his writing to them, they certainly should be growing into manhood of listening to the Spirit of God and to their spirit first and no longer have their fleshly soul in control of their lives, having remained as babes in the soul, and thus they are still fleshly.
After the lapse of only a few years the Apostle Paul already viewed them as having been babes too long. They had remained too long in the flesh, for by that time they should have been spiritual, meaning listening to the counsel of Jesus through the Spirit of God which is in them.
How lamentable to find modern-day Christians still achieving no progress in their spiritual walk even after decades because they never understood that they had to stop running their own life from the soul level without input from their spirit. They did not trust that Jesus in heaven has better answers than they, so they continue to do their own thinking and doing for any given moment, and so they are Christians, but they remain "in the flesh" or "fleshly" Christians and not "spiritual" Christians.
How long is it since you have believed in the Lord? Are you spiritual yet? We should not become aged babes, grieving the Holy Spirit and suffering loss to ourselves. All regenerated persons should permit the Holy Spirit to rule their life in every aspect so that in a relatively short period He may be led by what what God is providing for him at any given moment:
Psalm 32:8
I will instruct you and teach you in the way which you shall go: I will guide you with My eye.
Isaiah 28:26
For his God does instruct him to discretion and does teach him.
Psalm 48:14
For this God is our God forever and ever: He will be our guide even unto death.
Ephesians 2:10
For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God has before ordained that we should walk in them.
How long is it since you have believed in the Lord? Are you spiritual yet, meaning listening to the counsel of Jesus who is the head of the church? For the natural body can do nothing without the head first telling the body what to do.
Romans 8
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
1 Peter 1
3 Yes, blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead.
love, Eden
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