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Topic: Biblical Help
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Eden
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Hi, Leo, indeed several atheists that I know have asked me how it could be fair for those who have never heard the gospel, and there are millions of them in history, to then be sent to a hell fire in which they will consciously burn forever without dying.
I remember sometime earlier this year there was a photo in a magazine of a tribe in the Amazon, in which six primitive people stood in a jungle clearing, with red paint all over them, excitedly aiming their bows and arrows at a small plane that had just flown over their clearing for the first time.
And in history there have been millions of such people, in New Guinea, in Borneo, in the Himalayas, in the Amazon, in numerous places, and I would think that God would have to do something about that if there is such a thing as a hell into which people who have not accepted Jesus are put to consciously burn forever and ever without ever dying.
I know that when atheists have confronted me with that issue of primitive people who have never had the chance to hear the gospel, it always puts me on the defensive and I usually say that God will have to somehow give them a chance to accept or reject Jesus of whom they have never heard before. The God I know is a very loving God, and the Lord Jesus is a very, very loving Person, much more loving than me.
Romans 10
14 How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher?
love, Eden
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Leo
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"Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom judgment was committed. Also I saw the souls [see Where Is Your Soul?] of those who had been beheaded for their testimony to Jesus and for the word of God, and who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life, and reigned with Christ a thousand years." (Revelation 20:4 RSV)
"This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he who shares in the first resurrection! Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and they shall reign with Him a thousand years." (Revelation 20:5-6)
The Resurrection At The End Of The 1,000 Years
All of the people who have lived through the ages who did not have the opportunity to learn of Christ and be converted will be resurrected back to physical life at the end of the 1,000 years - not as any sort of "second chance," but as their first chance. Then, for that relatively short time between the second resurrection and the final judgment, they will learn the truth and have the opportunity to repent and be converted. Those that choose to obey God will then be transformed into eternal spirit beings just as those who were changed at the Return of Christ 1,000 years before.
The logical reason that Satan will be released from his prison for a short time after being locked up for the previous 1,000 years is to test those who will then know the Truth for the first time, including the hundreds of millions of people of the last generation of humans then alive, the descendants of the humans that were born and lived through the 1,000 years when Satan had no influence over them, as he does with the world now.
"The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended." (Revelation 20:5 RSV)
"And though the Lord give you the bread of adversity and the water of affliction, yet your Teacher will not hide himself any more, but your eyes shall see your Teacher. And your ears shall hear a word behind you, saying, "This is the way, walk in it," when you turn to the right or when you turn to the left." (Isaiah 30:20-21 RSV)
"And when the thousand years are ended, Satan will be loosed from his prison and will come out to deceive the nations which are at the four corners of the earth, that is, Gog and Magog, to gather them for battle; their number is like the sand of the sea. And they marched up over the broad earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city; but fire came down from heaven and consumed them, and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulphur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night for ever and ever." (Revelation 20:7-10 RSV)
I work with Mentally Retarded individuals and not one of them truly understand God and what He is about. I believe that God according to what I understand will raise them up for that brief period of time after the 1000 years and give them a Good mind, a mind they can comprehend with and be able to accept Jesus Christ. A good body which they have never known and will be able to live a normal live, being able to make decisions on their on as to accept Christ or not.Satan will be loosed a little while for that reason.
There are a lot of individuals that are like that. God is a Just and a loving God and I Don't believe He would deprive anyone from experiencing a normal life for a shot time.Then after that short period of time, the judgment to Hell fire.
Leo:
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Trust in God and Him only:
Posts: 10 | From: Alto, Texas | Registered: Dec 2009
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Eden
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Hello, Leo, welcome to the discussion board. First of all, that was a very nicely written post.
If I may, there was one part that I wondered about ... you wrote quote:
And when resurrected to face Jesus Christ they will be judged in the flesh "out of the books". The same standard for judgment, In other words, that face Christians today - the books of Scripture.
Revelation 20
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened; and another book was opened which is the book of life; and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
That is a very interesting concept. I had actually never noticed that it says "the books were opened" and that there was a "book of life".
The "book of life" is presumably the record of what a person did during his/her life. But so what are the other books that were opened when it says "and the books were opened".
I'm sure it's not referring to library books, et al., and it does make sense that those books would refer to the same books that we have, namely the books of the Bible.
Assuming that it is a reference to the books of the Bible, are you proposing that resurrected people at that time would be able to make the same judgment as to the truthfulness of what is written, or not, to either bring them to "instant faith" (so to speak), or not? Or how do you envision that playing out before the judgment seat, please?
A side question that I would have is that we currently on earth come to faith without the IMMINENCY of being thrown into the lake of fire.
When someone is resurrected, they would presumably KNOW that they have been resurrected, and furthermore they are standing before the judgment seat of the Glorious Holy One of Israel who they can actually SEE.
If, upon reading or hearing what it says in the books of Scripture while in front of the judgment seat, they would also know about the imminency of the lake of fire ...
Would they therefore not be MUCH MORE MOTIVATED to choose salvation now that they see that IT'S ALL TRUE, seeing the Holy One in front of them, and therefore they would also realize the truth about the lake of fire being the very next thing for them if they say "no" to salvation?
Or are you saying that they are merely judged on moral grounds, but how would that be possible if "there is no one who does good, no, not one" in the earth? Would they not have to be given to understand the whole Bible, like us, to "keep it fair"? What is your reaction to what I've just said here, please?
love, Eden
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botham
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Thanks Leo--Jesus said "I AM the resurrection and the life." "Before Abraham "I AM". "I AM the way the truth and the life". The gospel of John states that the "Word", Jesus, is God.
Your comments are well taken as to the fact that so many have died and will die without experiencing the saving knowledge of the Cross, the Blood of Jesus Christ, shed for them. Paul says that the human race is without excuse however, so the discussion is really about what that means. Does Paul mean the twenty year old who dies of a drug overdose after being born into a depraved family setting, being sexually and emotionally abused throughout childhood, going on to drug use and sexual immorality because that's all they know, and on and on until they perish in their sins. Did they ever really live, or was it just a miserable existence, a fraud of life.
It could be, to an omniscient God, that society with it's dispicable shortcomings should be burned. I know one thing--that God loved that person who perished without a chance to hear the gospel with a love that we cannot understand. There are varying opinions as to their final state. But God is God and has the final say. We must be careful with attributing to God, Jesus Christ, a limited human portion of justice. He is Justice as He is Love and Mercy. What He wil do He will do.
Many believers will think it heresy to believe that God gives second chances. I would not be alive if God did not give second and third and fouth etc. chances. I know people who have tried to give up drugs(or name your poison) many times before submitting to God for the victory. So was it a **** shoot. If they died after the second attempt to recover would they burn forever, but the person who took ten attemps and finally gives in to God goes on to glory. We do not have the ability to figure that out, no matter what scripture we bring to the conversation. This is up to God, not us.
But to say that there is no eternal hell is also incorrect in my opinion. The Word of God intimates strongly that God's Justice includes eternal justice. If people who commit genocide for instance, are simply erradicated from existence forever, where's the justice. Their victims received no mercy and died in great fear and dread. For these heinous killers to be simply eradicated with no further repercussions, would be to let them off entirely.
We need to tell people about the love of their Creator, Jesus Christ(opening verses in gospel of John). And if, after a trust relationship is formed they remain intransigent in their refusal, we must be honest and explain that the Word of God fortells a bleak future for such a refusal.
God Bless, Botham
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Leo
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Is today the only day of salvation?...
Does God Offer Us a "Second Chance"?
The depths of human depravity knows no bounds. One day it's the callous murder on our door-step of sixteen innocents and their teacher. Then hundreds are cindered in a disco fire in some far-off land. Each year earthquake, fire and flood carry off thousands.
And nearly all die "without Jesus ", and without salvation!
Where is God in all of this? Is He on vacation? Perhaps, deservedly, He has washed His hands of humanity? Why hasn't He made a move to rescue us? Does He not love the world enough to deliver us from our natural and man-made disasters? And to save us eternally?
Most Christians, of course, believe that if you're not saved during this human lifespan then you are without hope of salvation. Translate that into understandable words and it says that without Christ the bulk of humanity will forever burn, but not burn up, in hell's fires - the "popular" idea of what happens to those who die "without Jesus". Challenge most evangelical preachers and they will, perhaps reluctantly, admit to this. And challenge that sweet, gentle Christian lady renowned for her undoubted good works - and she, too, will agree that this fate awaits any who die "unsaved".
Since Creation, then, only a tiny fraction of earth's billions - according to the accepted Christian teaching - have "gone to glory". Virtually none before the death of Jesus Christ. And certainly merely a minority since. The rest have suffered through a lifetime that is, in effect, purposeless.
And God has, apparently, failed.
Cosmic Battle
Most Christians believe God is trying to save the world. That He is battling Satan for the souls of mankind. Before Christ's death - absolutely no chance of salvation. Since then - opportunity for salvation, but only if you are in the right place at the right time.
Has the Christian missionary failed to reach you? Too bad. Are you one of the two billion or so alive today who have never even heard the name of Jesus? Too bad - your chance of eternal life is remote, unlikely. And too bad for those born before the Christian era.
Certainly there is powerful argument that God has failed and is failing in His plans. Which, of course, is quite ridiculous!
The fact is, the Word of God is quite explicit about God's plan. (Yes - He has a plan!) That plan is beautiful. It is fair. It is exciting. Of course each man and each woman who has ever lived will face judgment. Each of us will answer for our every word and every action. Every murderer or thief or extortioner or liar or adulterer or terrorist - even if he now escapes true justice - will surely face judgment. The ledger isn't closed in this life!
But every man, woman and child who ever breathed on this planet will be given his or her chance of living for ever!
In God's plan for mankind there's provision for what some despise as a "second chance". But even if that were so - what's wrong with it? Did you ever give your child a second chance? That first failed attempt at walking - did you stuff little Mary into her crib saying "You've had your chance. Just stay there"?
Of course not. Nor does God. He is not less merciful than His creation. And in such a serious matter as eternal life. However, we don't in fact get a "second chance" at salvation. For few in this life have a first one!
God invites (calls) into His Family and to salvation (John 6:65). The call is highly selective, and not everyone who is called accepts the invitation (Matthew 20:16). Further - not all stay faithful (Revelation 17:14). (It is selective. But God does not often call mankind's "giants" - I Corinthians 1:26-29!)
For the vast majority of mankind, however, the phone doesn't ring. They don't ever, in this life, get a call!
The billions alive before Christ, the billions since who never heard his name, the young children who die from disease or accident or by some act of human depravity, the billions whose hope of salvation lies with their good works, or with Allah, or with a multiplicity of Hindu gods - none of those have yet been called to "get salvation".
But they will have their chance! Jesus tells us (Revelation 20:5) that they will live again. But that resurrection won't take place, he says, until after the thousand-year reign of Jesus Christ. That thousand years hasn't even begun! And when resurrected to face Jesus Christ they will be judged in the flesh "out of the books". The same standard for judgment, In other words, that face Christians today - the books of Scripture.
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Trust in God and Him only:
Posts: 10 | From: Alto, Texas | Registered: Dec 2009
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botham
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Thank you Leo. These are great discussions. Different perspectives from the same great Word of God. But what's the common theme. That we will live forever with Jesus Christ, our God and Redeemer for eternity.
Is there a need to tell anyone about Jesus Christ and our redemption by the Cross if at some juncture God will provide opportunity anyway? We might better leave these questions with God who is Just beyond any mortal persons' understanding. We have been told to tell people about the gospel of Love by the very Creator, Jesus Christ. To be truthful I do not share enough with unbelievers and I pray often for God to remove fear from me.
Any child who dies will be united with Jesus Christ who has all authority over life and death. The age or time of accountability for a person is known to God alone. Only God who is I AM THAT I AM, even Jesus Christ has the ability to reexpress His created people to immortal life. God bless, Botham
Posts: 103 | From: canada | Registered: Nov 2009
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Leo
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Are there individuals who have over stepped their boundaries and will be lost, not having a chance to be in the “Kingdom of God”? Have they gone so far from God that He will not allow them to have a chance for repentance? What does the Bible have to say about this? Or is God a just God and one that will give ALL man kind a chance, no matter what?
Predestination is the doctrine that God alone is the One who chooses who is saved, that He ordains the means, the time, and the circumstances of salvation and that without His predestination, no one would ever be saved. In part this is because human nature is so completely corrupted by sin that no person is capable of choosing God unless God first regenerates that person. But any Bible student will soon discover there are verses which say God wants all men to be saved. For example, "This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth" (1 Tim. 2:3-4, NIV).
The question, then, is if God predestines only some to salvation, why are there verses that say God wants all to be saved?
2 Corinthians 5:14-15:
"For the love of Christ controls us, having concluded this, that one died for all, therefore all died; and He died for all, that they who live should no longer live for themselves, but for Him who died and rose again on their behalf."
But who are the “ALL” mentioned here?
"There are two kinds of people in the world," intoned the preacher, "the saved and the lost. There is no middle ground with God."
Now there is a sobering thought. If indeed there are only two kinds of people in the world, and if we are "people," we must be either saved or lost. And if we're not consciously aware of having been saved, then we must be lost. And if we're lost...
What the preacher said sounds logical, but is it true? We have to ask, because his statement has some frightening implications.
For example, if there are indeed only two kinds of people in the world, then a newborn baby is either saved or lost right from the start. If a baby is born lost, and if all lost people must go to hell when they die, then what happens to this baby if he dies in infancy? After all, according to most Christian doctrine, only saved people can go to heaven.
On the other hand, if babies are born saved, then is it best that they die in infancy? At what age would sin be imputed to a child? If he steals at age three, does he become "lost" by that act? If he is rebellious at age two, is that where he gets "lost"? And if he is lost, does he go to hell if he dies?
The Heathen
Then there are those people in the world who know nothing of the Christian religion. Are they saved or lost? If they are lost, does God consign them to hell when they never had a chance at salvation? On the other hand, if they are already saved, then why do we send missionaries?
And, more important, if they are saved, there must be another way of salvation! If Muslims, Buddhists, Taoists, Shintoists, Jews, animists, sun and moon worshipers, as well as every conceivable variety of Christian, are all going to heaven when they die, then there could be dozens, even hundreds of ways to be saved! Christian doctrine rarely allows for that.
"Does it make sense to you that a little Chinese girl, age three and one-half, sweet little innocent baby, is going to be dancing from brick to brick, beating at flames for all eternity because a missionary had a flat tire?"
Three points in answer to this question:
1. Men are not in total spiritual darkness (Romans 1:19-20).
2. God does not want the heathen to perish (2 Peter 3:9)
3. Anyone who wishes to establish a relationship with God will receive the necessary information on which to make that decision (1 Chronicles 28:9; Psalm 9:10; Psalm 145:17-20; Jeremiah 29:13).
But what does all this mean? Does it mean that non-Christians will go to hell because they are fully responsible for their acts or that they will not go to Hell because God will find a way to save them?
The truth is that All individuals who have ever lived will be given a chance, not a second chance, but a chance to be in Gods Kingdom. Those who are called and chosen will not waver from Gods truth because of His Spirit in them. But those who have never been called will have the opportunity now, in Gods Kingdom or after the 1000 years is finished. For in Revelation Ch. 20 we are told that the rest of the dead will live after that time frame, Satan will be loosed for a little season and they will be tested as we were by him and will be given a chance to be a chosen of God.
(Ezekiel 37:1-14).
The dead, dry bones will be reconstituted, "bone to its bone" and there will be "sinews on them" along with flesh and skin. Then God will send his Spirit and breathe upon them, as he did when he first created Adam, and they will come to life.
This is a double prophecy. It is talking about the Resurrection of the House of Israel and also a physical resurrection mentioned in Rev. ch 20, the rest of the dead.
Those individuals will be given a good clear mind, a good straight body, where they may have been crippled before and will be able to make their own decisions.
That is about as clear as I can make it.
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Trust in God and Him only:
Posts: 10 | From: Alto, Texas | Registered: Dec 2009
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Thunderz7
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I believe everyone is responsibe to/for what they know;
so some are more accountable than others.
What can everyone see and know?
Romans 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Posts: 1113 | From: Northeast Alabama | Registered: Jun 2002
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Brother Paul
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I know Eden, it was just that you asked me for a support to be given from a recource like Strongs...
and that many people (not necessarily you), never make that connection between Genesis 48 and Romans 11...and their future re-unification in Messiah is an underlying theme all throughout the Old Testament (many believe and teach God is through with Israel). The church is God's intent for Israel since before the foundation of the world and Israel is our roots as well as our exemple to bring us to Christ.
The peace of the Lord be with you..
in Christ,
Brother Paul
Posts: 235 | From: Cambridge, MA | Registered: Dec 2009
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Eden
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Brother Paul, if the short post directly above mine was directed at me (it would help if you identify whom you are answering), I do want you to know that I appreciated your comments regarding the "fullness of the gentile ephraimites" and that I myself generally also consult study books to look into the Greek and/or Hebrew in many instances, but that in this particular instance, it did not seem that important since both the "fullness of the wild olive tree gentiles" and the "fullness of the ephraimite gentiles" will be harvested or "come in" at the same time.
And therefore it seemed sufficient in this case to not overthink the idea and to keep it simple by merely saying that "the fullness of the gentiles" will be brought in, and that this "fullness of the gentiles" will also include the mixed-in ephraimites.
In any case, in my earlier response regarding the "fullness of the ephraimites", it was not my intent to discourage you or anyone from producing Hebrew or Greek underlying evidence to make their point because in many case the Hebrew and/or Greek prove very valuable scriptural points that otherwise would have gone unnoticed if one only looked at the English, et al.
love, Eden
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Brother Paul
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Oh yeah, I realize that "multitude of nations" is also an acceptable and legitimate translation but Paul references it in this other way so that is why I found an interest in pursuing it further...there is a connection between these passages that can be missed if read in English and is related to how Messiah brings Jacob (Israel) back...(read Isaiah 49:5 and consider how it relates to Isaiah 11:12)
Brother Paul
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Brother Paul
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Thanks brothers,first amen to your response post Botham and Eden thanks for correcting my typo and yes as the greater outreach to all the gentiles (to whom I formerly belonged)takes place these melo ha'goyim are also gathered. This reunification in Messiah is merely an effect of the overall redemptive plan but it fulfills the promises of Abraham to Israel so that all Israel will be saved (not every single individual) who were to be saved (to whom in one sense as Paul indicates, we have been grafted into). The Lord being no respecter of persons. In Christ whosoever will may come. It is just that this reunification through Messiah was part of His overall purpose and few have given it much thought. For those already of the Church this may not be significant but it is a key to showing unbelieving Jews their need for the Messiah who comes first to die for the sins of the whole world. In Him there was a specific purpose for them that is revealed in the Old Covenant Scriptures (the Tanakh)and confirmed in the New. It gives them direct connection to their need for Him in a different way (a useful point for evangelism to nominal Jewish people as well)they are very rooted in their culture and history and heve a deeply rooted sense of eschatological purpose they do not understand being outside of Christ (the Spirit opens their minds to the Scriptures). Did you know most synagogues barely touch Isaiah 53 or Zechariah 12:10? These are too close to indicating Jesus so they actually try to avoid them...also few congregation members in local synagogues read their Tanach other then the weekly recommended individual passages and a few Psalms.
Brother Paul
Posts: 235 | From: Cambridge, MA | Registered: Dec 2009
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Eden
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hello, brother Paul, thanks for taking the time to answer in such detail. One correction for anyone who might be looking for your reference, you wrote "Genesius" and that I think should be "Gesenius" (a typo, no doubt).
As for the whether the "fullness of the gentile ephraimites" AND the "gentiles of the wild olive tree" are being saved currently and concurrently, it seems to me that, since it's unknown who is who among the gentiles, that it becomes sufficient to merely say that "the fulness of the gentiles" is being brought in, with the additional understanding that the gentiles are these days composed of both ephraimites and non-ephraimites (or goyim).
Because, they are not brought in during separate periods but are brought-in in the same period, hence the "fulness" can be applied to both groups and no special effort needs to be made to try to apply "the fullness" to the ephraimites alone as if there was some hidden etymological gem to be discovered.
love, Eden the merchant of Chilmad
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botham
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Interesting discussion. Of course there are different interpretations as to the term predestined. It is amazing that we, formed of the dust, can contemplate our own existence and commune with the very Spirit of the Living God. What an amazing wonder! So when we discover, usually because someone was bold enough to witness the Love of Christ, that this very God desires every soul He ever created to be in Heaven with Him through the redemption by the Blood of His Son, it is life changing. From a life of carnality and misery to a life of Hope and joy even in the midst of the calmities and sorrow. The Holy Spirit convicts, we repent in our hearts, and the new life formed from the wreckage of our past is what God presents to the fallen world as evidence of His miraculous power. This is available to anyone, including this most unworthy writer whose sins were as scarlet. The Cross, the Blood was applied by such abundant Grace. But the world is not the bard's stage, script written, case closed. Many people have damned their own free agency or the free agency of others. "Why God, will You not stop me from doing the sins I do?" "Why are you allowing brutal killings of innocents this very day?" I believe that God wants relationship with Saints who freely come to Him. But who is free? Who has enough faith to make the righr decision? Surely it is not the most learned. If people whose dispositions are miserable through intergenerational cultural norms or through personality carried through blood lines are less likely to accept Christ, then we set a limit on the unfathonable Power of The Holy Spirit who can of course split soul and spirit asunder. So it remains, as I know you desire also being a worshipper of The Most High God, our duty, not to ferret out which prostitute seems to be predestined but sidetracked(a crude metaphor for the predestined who don't know it yet), but to witness and pray for those who are low and high by social and moral standards. Please, no matter what scripture you cite, do not believe that you know the entirely of God's plans. He has given us sufficient to know only one thing. That Christ has saved His fallen race and that He desires that all will come to Him for fellowship in eternity. If one believes that some are predestined, then one will inevitably, no matter how subtle, think that they can discern who will or will not go to Heaven. Any Saint who has been in the faith long enough will attest to seeing the most fallen and hopeless people, after much prayer and never giving up, turn to their Creator and plead the Blood of Christ. No offence intended of course. But you cannot but see that I think the ideology of predestination a most unfortunate interpretation. God bless, Botham
Posts: 103 | From: canada | Registered: Nov 2009
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Brother Paul
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Great inquiry Eden. One I hope others will also glean from. I have been a staff writer and researcher for GotQuestions.org for the last 3 years and my area of specialty is apologetics as it relates to Bible difficulties and early Church History (use a lot of historical, archaeological, and scientific evidences as back up)this privledge supplied by His grace has given me a lot of light I cannot but share.
Now then, my study comes from Brown-Driver-Briggs Hebrew Lexicon (not Strong’s but Strong’s also bares this out), however the insight was given to me from the Holy Spirit and later I found much confirmation from many scholars (including many Rabbis) who are by far more learned than myself. This relates to a much larger body of data that perhaps I will present in article or study form for the edification of the saints, but anyway, I believe this is what you asked for:
Melo’ #H4393: is a masculine noun which literally means fullness or that which fills but it can also mean completeness (the verb form ‘mala’ means to accomplish or to be amassed together)
Ha’ is a standard definite article which usually is interpreted ‘the’ ‘of the’ or ‘a’. For example: Baruch v’Ha’Shem Adonai Y’shua Ha’Moschiach Tzeddkenu means Blessed be the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, our Righteousness. This article, just like in English always refers to the noun which in Hebrew precedes it (which in this Scripture is goyim) which in our English follows it (we say “the gentiles or nations” they say “gentiles the or nations the”
…a second feature taken from Genesius Hebrew Grammar reveals that in Hebrew when the definite article is used it automatically implies we do not precisely who the person or which object is being described…like if I said go and pick the apple of your choice from my orchard I could not possibly know the apple you would pick but that you would pick one is without doubt…Isaiah 7:14 says “a maiden shall conceive” (which though a young unmarried woman in Israel always implied her virginity)…thus we know this virgin is not Isaiah’s wife or a child of the King or any other such nonsense modern skeptics try to throw at us…they are wolves who hide behind their sheepskins (MA and Ph.D.)
Now as for ‘Goyim’ #H1471 the plural of goy which refers to all non-Hebrews, i.e., physical descendants of Abraham, also to the heathen who knew not God but in all fairness can be used to refer to “the nations” meaning the world apart from Jacob’s tribes.
The cognate root of the word is “ga-ah’ which means to have grown up, to be exalted in triumph, or to be lifted.
Paul’s application in the Koine Greek “pleroma ton ethon’ speaks to the learned Rabbis of the diaspora as a direct reference to the LXX translation of Genesis 48:19 which in classical Greek says ‘plethos ethnon’ and the Old Latin renders it ‘creset in gentes’ which means ‘a full number of gentiles’.
2nd question was…”So are you saying that the "fullness of the gentile ephraimites" AND the gentiles of the wild olive tree are currently, and concurrently, being saved now?
Christ has come and anyone can come to salvation “in Christ Jesus” no matter what ethnicity they are but one of God’s definite purposes is that in this “new people” (because that what we are…we were once not a people but now we are an entirely new and unique people, a new creation…the people of God (literally), born of the Holy Spirit) the divided Kingdoms will once again be united (the Scripture says that in the hand of Messiah the stick of Israel which are the Ephraimites and the stick of Judah which are faithful Jewish people whatever tribe they are from, will once again become one stick)…stick (shebbet) is the staff of rulership…in Messiah, God alone is King…
I hope this has helped but ask more if you like, I do not mind. And I would love to see others join in and add their insights
Love in Christ,
Brother Paul
Posts: 235 | From: Cambridge, MA | Registered: Dec 2009
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Eden
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hello, Brother Paul, thanksk for posting, you wrote quote:
The words here in Hebrew are “melo’ha’Goyim” which literally means “fullness of the gentiles”. Ephraim was prophesied to become “the fullness of the Gentiles” ...
I will have to try to look that up, or perhaps you can break it down for me with the Strong's Concordance, please?
You also wrote: quote:
a) There are three groups…the natural (the Jewish People who come and have come to Christ)…those who were “broken off” (the Ephraimites sown in among the gentiles…lost sheep of the House of Israel) and the wild olive branch (the gentile believers who become “grafted in”.
b) Salvation does not culminate (2nd Advent) until the “fullness of the gentiles” come in…this phrase by wise learned Rabbi Sha’ul (St. Paul) does not mean a set number of gentiles but a select group of gentile ephraimites…when that number is fulfilled (and it is nearly there now but that is another almost book) then shall the coming of the Son of Man be ...
So are you saying that the "fullness of the gentile ephraimites" AND the gentiles of the wild olive tree are curently, and concurrently, being saved now?
Thank you. Eden the merchant of Chilmad
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Brother Paul
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Brother Eden,
I love your ability to reason with the scriptures I can see as you mature in the Spirit you will be prolific in presenting the word if you stick to what Jesus and the Apostles taught.
I did want to say that there will not be a time when Christ preaches again to those in hades to set them free. "It is finished". He died once for all (Hebrews 10). Those pre-death/burial/and resurrection believers had always looked forward to the coming Redeemer (Genesis 3:15; Isaiah 53; Daniel 9; Zechariah 12:10)who would be bruised for us...they died without it having taken place so until there was "blood" to be applied to their sin account (Romans 6:23) there was no remission of sins (Acts 2:38).
It is thus already determined who will be among the "whosoever will may come" group and the "whosoever does not believe" group. Before their ever was a human, YHVH (Father, Word/Son, and Holy Spirit)in His foreknowledge knew every choice and decision and the effects and interaction of effects of all beings yet to be created. He foresaw all who would respond to that measure of faith to the point of salvation (accepting the offer of His grace which is unmerited and undeserved favor)and faithe (rendered believe but is the verb form of faith which is the noun Pistis, i.e., to totally place ones trust in, to totally rely on, and cleave to).
He also foreknew every person (even socially nice ones) who would never have this "faith" which believes God (like Abraham). He knew all who would never even repent even if they heard the gospel.
The "whosoever will" who would come to Him are predestined to be saved
The whosoever does not believe are condemned. They do not have to be elected to be sent to Hell thats where we are all going until we are saved by the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ, they just will not (even if they were told and shown volumes of reasons and evidence why).
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Now I would like to go off course a little to hopefully enlighten you to a connection most do not know about.
You make a reference to Genesis 48:16 but the Latin brought out a distorted emphasis in the Vulgate, which though an excellent Translation is not without its errors (Jerome admitted to 32 of them). To me this was one. However it was carried over into the interpretation of Erasmus and then made it’s way into the KJV and thus in all subsequent translations in English we read this mistaken meaning. When read from verses 15-19 we are reading the blessings on Josephs sons. This moment is crucial in the unfolding of the rest of the Old Testament. As you probably know Ephraim becomes the 10 northern Tribes referred to after Solomon as “Israel” and Judah and Benjamin stay south and become “Judah”. This is the substance of the entire books of Kings and Chronicles as well and it would and has taken books to explain all that this means.
The point I would like to make however is that this “blessing” culminates in verse 19 when Jacob says the Ephraim will become “a multitude of nations.” The words here in Hebrew are “melo’ha’Goyim” which literally means “fullness of the gentiles”. Ephraim was prophesied to become “the fullness of the Gentiles” later we learn God “breaks them off” (ha’Nokroi) from the tree referred to as His children, and in Jeremiah He tells us He is going to sow them in among the gentiles and refers to them as His “lost sheep”.
Now go to Romans 11 and recognize a couple of things
a) There are three groups…the natural (the Jewish People who come and have come to Christ)…those who were “broken off” (the Ephraimites sown in among the gentiles…lost sheep of the House of Israel) and the wild olive branch (the gentile believers who become “grafted in”.
b) Salvation does not culminate (2nd Advent) until the “fullness of the gentiles” come in…this phrase by wise learned Rabbi Sha’ul (St. Paul) does not mean a set number of gentiles but a select group of gentile ephraimites…when that number is fulfilled (and it is nearly there now but that is another almost book) then shall the coming of the Son of Man be (and there are many other signs as these which all point in culmination to His arrival…if you are watching it will not catch you as a thief in the night…)
The mercy and peace of God be upon you all in the name of the Lord Jesus..
Brother Paul
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Eden
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1 Peter 3
18 For Christ also has once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit.
19 By which [my note: by the Spirit] He went and preached to the spirits in prison.
20 Who sometime were disobedient when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
So perhaps Jesus will also preach one more time to the spirits that are "in prison" which presumably is or was a place where their spirits were being held, whatever that may mean exactly je ne sais quoi.
Another consideration could be that the generations of people in the nations were responsible for their own behavior, and if, over time, whole nations became buddhist, that is not the fault of God but of the people who chose it.
And yes, if their forefathers chose buddhism, the forefathers's sin continued unto the 3rd or 4th generation:
Exodus 20:5
You shall not bow yourself down to them, nor serve them; for I the LORD your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them who hate Me.
So here we see that an entire nation continues to choose the sin of their forefathers, much 10-tribed northern Israel "continued to choose Baal", and then the state of sin continues to be perpeuated, even unto our own day they are still buddhist.
It is not the fault of God, but of buddha and the people who are believing in buddhism for salvation. The sin of the fathers is being perpeutated among them by the ongoing third and fourth generation curse, imposed by God.
Moreover, in any country there are people who are "sons of Belial" or "low-lives". The author of the book The Snow Leopard reported that while he searched for the snow leopard in the Himalayas, he came through many villages and he found that the people in an entire village would either be friendly, and then in a next village all the people were surly and staring at him in sem-hostile way. These things the villagers surely inherited from their "fathers".
Thus, when God and Jesus decided in heaven that the Divine Plan of Rescue would be that Jesus would come to earth by way of Mary (Miriam) of Nazareth being overshadowed by the Holy Spirit, and this Jesus once incarnate would die on the cross for the sins committed by the descendants of Adam and Eve, and that Jesus would rise again from the dead on the third day and would ascend up to heaven, and come again in the last days to take control of the earth, when this is preached ...
... only certain kinds of people could accept and believe in the Divine Plan of Rescue that God and Jesus had devised in heaven.
Of the 2 villages in the Himalayas, which villagers would be "more likely to accept the good news of Jesus if they were preached to"? LOL
And one more consideration could be that the good news of Jesus began in the middle of the earth:
Genesis 48:16
The Angel who redeemed me from all evil, bless the lads [my note: Manasseh and Ephraim]; and let my name be named on them and also the name of my fathers Abraham and Isaac; and let them grow into a multitude in the midst of the earth.
We do know that the land occupied by Israel forms the "dividing meridian", to the west of which is called The West and to the east of which is called The East. Europe ends west of the Volga river in Russia and Asia starts east of the Volga.
The point is, God chose a land in the midst of the earth, so that from there, both halves would have equal "fair access" to the gospel of Jesus, depending on their forefathers.
love, Eden
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botham
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Thanks, I knew someone would bring appropriate scriptures to bear on the question. Absolutely correct and indisputable--only the Blood of Christ is sufficient for salvation. We ought to tell people about Jesus and redemption much more than we do. Churches would double in size each Sunday. I have never told anyone that they will go to hell if they do not accept Jesus. I tell them that God values them beyond their imagination and that they have purpose, value and potentials that cannot be known without God. Of course I am not a preacher, so I must first have credibility and a reasonable trust relationship with a person before witnessing in conversation. At no time have I, or others on this site, ever said that there is an equality of religions or any other way to salvation except by the Blood of Christ, the Cross. But I personally do not believe that people come to the Cross because of fear of hell. They come because they sense the power of the Holy Spirit in the Word or words and demeanor of a believer. No person has an excuse before a Sovereign and Holy God. But no person, no matter what scripture they bring to bear on some situations, can state what God, who has the final word on everything, will do. What we can say is that the Cross must be involved--to this there is no argument. But a child who is molested from early childhood, abused in every form(which is common), told they are worthless directly and indirectly, can in no way be expected to express as solid a belief in Christ as a child who is groomed from birth to understand Christ and salvation. So if the abused person whimpers, in one of the many dark nights of their soul, even a miserable assent toward the unknown Spirit that woos them, and it is the only time they do so before they die, God and God alone chooses whether the Blood applies. That's all I mean. Of course the basic knowledge is that sin cannot enter the Kingdom of God. We must be washed by the Blood of the Lamb. This is just an intrique that has been discussed from the beginning of our faith. But we must, as you say, always defer to the necessity of sharing the entire gospel, not the sentiments of human pity. Christ's Blood was required because of our sin. God bless, Botham
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KnowHim
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"Will people who have never heard the gospel all go to hell because they haven’t heard about Jesus Christ?"
No one will go to hell because they haven’t heard of Jesus Christ. The heathen will go to hell for murder, rape, adultery, lust, theft, lying, etc. Sin is not failing to hear the gospel. Rather, "sin is the transgression of the Law" (1 John 3:4). If we really care about the lost, we will become missionaries and take the good news of God’s forgiveness in Christ to them.
JESUS is the One who said that He is the only way to the Father. For Christians to say that there are other ways to find peace with God is to bear false testimony. In one sweeping statement, Jesus discards all other religions as a means of finding forgiveness of sins. This agrees with other Scriptures: "Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is no other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved" (Acts 4:12), and "For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus" (1 Timothy 2:5).
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The below is from http://www.gotquestions.org/never-heard.html
All people are accountable to God whether or not they have “heard about Him.” The Bible tells us that God has clearly revealed Himself in nature (Romans 1:20) and in the hearts of people (Ecclesiastes 3:11). The problem is that the human race is sinful; we all reject this knowledge of God and rebel against Him (Romans 1:21-23). If it were not for God's grace, we would be given over to the sinful desires of our hearts, allowing us to discover how useless and miserable life is apart from Him. He does this for those who continually reject Him (Romans 1:24-32).
In reality, it is not that some people have not heard about God. Rather, the problem is that they have rejected what they have heard and what is readily seen in nature. Deuteronomy 4:29 proclaims, “But if from there you seek the LORD your God, you will find him if you look for him with all your heart and with all your soul.” This verse teaches an important principle—everyone who truly seeks after God will find Him. If a person truly desires to know God, God will make Himself known.
The problem is “there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God” (Romans 3:11). People reject the knowledge of God that is present in nature and in their own hearts, and instead decide to worship a “god” of their own creation. It is foolish to debate the fairness of God sending someone to hell who never had the opportunity to hear the gospel of Christ. People are responsible to God for what God has already revealed to them. The Bible says that people reject this knowledge, and therefore God is just in condemning them to hell.
Instead of debating the fate of those who have never heard, we, as Christians, should be doing our best to make sure they do hear. We are called to spread the gospel throughout the nations (Matthew 28:19-20; Acts 1:8). We know people reject the knowledge of God revealed in nature, and that must motivate us to proclaim the good news of salvation through Jesus Christ. Only by accepting God’s grace through the Lord Jesus Christ can people be saved from their sins and rescued from an eternity apart from God.
If we assume that those who never hear the gospel are granted mercy from God, we will run into a terrible problem. If people who never hear the gospel are saved, it is logical that we should make sure no one ever hears the gospel. The worst thing we could do would be to share the gospel with a person and have him or her reject it. If that were to happen, he or she would be condemned. People who do not hear the gospel must be condemned, or else there is no motivation for evangelism. Why run the risk of people possibly rejecting the gospel and condemning themselves when they were previously saved because they had never heard the gospel?
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Don't be afraid to tell it like it is. Jesus is the only way!
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botham
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Excellent discussion--we can expand the situation to so many millions in the world who are Hindus, and really any religion other than Christianity. My views are not going to be scripturally based in the specific (some will no doubt respond to your question who know scriptures better--there are many on this site), but I would like to make a comment based on how God and Redemption impress my heart in a general way from reading the bible.
We need to remember also the millions who have inhabited earth, lived and died without hearing the gospel specifically. I think Paul the apostle said that everyone is born or given sufficient faith or the spiritual equivalent of physical DNA sufficient to respond in the affirmative to God's ubiquitous call on the human heart. Paul mentions the features of the physical universe that entail such a compelling notion of a Creator, that one is without excuse as to rejecting the worship of God.
I've also thought about the extremes of family nurturing, ranging from positive, affirming, Spirit filled parenting to abusive and degrading parenting with all the negative features of drug and alcohol abuse, sexual molestation and so on. Say a child is raised in each of the environments and both perish at age twenty or so in a violent auto accident. The one young adult never heard the gospel preached because the abuse and dismal social context of upbringing prevented any serious consideration spiritual things. The young adult in the family that took them to church etc. accepted Chrsit before they died. Is there any justice at all to the idea that the abused person goes to hell after such a miserable life and the happy person goes to heaven?
If we apply scripture in a religious, dogmatic manner, many wonderful people as well as many who were robbed of the decent aspects of life are destined to hell.
God who is Mercy, who is Love, who is Justice, has the final Word in these matters. Somehow, in a way far beyond human comprension, God will decide if the Blood of His Son, the event of The Cross, is applicable to the soul of one of His creation. Would God be looking for ways to exclude a person from His Kingdom? I am sure it is the opposite. But somehow, the precious Blood is involved in the decision for there can be no other criteria. This is but my opinion based on my impressions of scripture. I would love to see comments by the scripturally astute. God bless, Botham
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MentorsRiddle
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I think it's because we feel ignorant of the bible in some way.. or perhaps that we had a chance to represent God and might have let him down.
Because we couldn't think our loving God could do that to someone who didn't know better.
I have no idea.
I was hoping someone here did LOL
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With you I rise,
In you I sleep,
kneeling down I kiss your feet,
Grace abounds upon me now,
I once was lost
but now I'm found.
The gift of God dwells within,
To this love I now give in.
Posts: 1337 | From: Arkansas | Registered: Sep 2003
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Luc A C
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I've been in your situation many times, and my answer was basicly the same as yours. So why is it after a conversation like that I feel so week and that some how I failed?
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Let use not interpret the Bible in a way that it would suit the way we want to live, but let use interpret the Bible in a way God wants us to live.
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MentorsRiddle
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Last night a long time friend came over to my house – and as usual we got into a discussion about theology and different aspects of spirituality.
The conversations between he and I always have the same pattern: He proposes a spiritual question and I biblically try to explain it.
Well, last night he asked a question I just couldn’t give a good answer for.
“Take all the millions of people in China who do not believe in Jesus Christ or God,” he began, “who believe in Buddha and follow that way of life. They have never been raised around Christianity like we have and were not given an equal chance to follow Christ – are they going to hell?”
Now my first response was me saying, “I would like to think they wouldn’t go to hell – as I don’t wish that on anyone. But the truth of the matter is that I don’t have enough biblical knowledge on this subject to give a proper answer.”
I also told him that I believe that is also going to be between each individual and God and that I don’t have the right to judge – thus I leave that decision in God’s hands.
But to me this seemed like I was just trying to explain away a complex question – which I guess in a way I was.
So, I would like to ask all of you what you would have said in a situation like that.
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With you I rise,
In you I sleep,
kneeling down I kiss your feet,
Grace abounds upon me now,
I once was lost
but now I'm found.
The gift of God dwells within,
To this love I now give in.
Posts: 1337 | From: Arkansas | Registered: Sep 2003
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