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Topic: saved ... or not saved?
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practicalbibleteaching
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James 2:14-26 as explained by Dr. J Vernon McGee
In verses 14–26 James shows that God tests faith by good works. There are those who say that we have in this section a contradiction to the writings of Paul, because Paul made it abundantly clear that faith alone could save you. We have his clear statement in Galatians 2:16—“Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified” (italics mine).
I have divided this section up as follows: (1) The interpretation of faith (v. 14); (2) the identification of faith (vv. 15–20); and (3) the illustration of faith (vv. 21–26).
First we have the interpretation of faith. When we understand the definition of faith as it is used by Paul and James in the context of their writings, we can see that Paul and James are in perfect agreement, that they are discussing the same subject from different viewpoints.
Paul says that a man is not saved by the works or the deeds of the Law. In Romans 3:28 he writes, “Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.” In Galatians, as we have noted, Paul says that a man is justified not by works but by faith in Christ Jesus. How then are we going to reconcile Paul and James? As someone has said, “Paul and James do not stand face to face, fighting against each other, but they stand back to back, fighting opposite foes.” In that day there were those who were saying that you had to perform the works of the Law (the Mosaic Law), that you had to come by the Law, in order to be saved. Paul answered that by saying that the works of the Law will not save you and that only faith in Christ can save you. Both Paul and James, therefore, are defending the citadel of faith. To see that, we need to understand the use of their terminology. Paul says that saving faith—a faith which is genuine and real—will transform a person’s life. Paul said of himself, “But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ” (Phil. 3:7). A real revolution took place in his life when he came to Christ. In 1 Corinthians 15:1–2 Paul wrote, “Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain;” that is, unless it was just an empty faith (italics mine). Now let us look at what James has to say—
What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? [James 2:14].
James is not talking about the works of the Law. He simply says that the faith which saves you will produce works, works of faith. The faith that James is talking about here is professing faith, that which is phony and counterfeit. Paul refers to the same idea when he says in 1 Corinthians 15:2, “… unless ye have believed in vain.” Paul also wrote, “Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith …” (2 Cor. 13:5).
One of the greatest dangers for us preachers of the gospel is that we like to see people converted, and we are willing to accept a brazen and flippant yes from some individual who says, “Yes, I’ll trust Jesus.” However, it might be just an impertinent, impudent, and insolent nod of the head; it is so easy today to be as phony as a three–dollar bill.
The story is told that the Devil had a meeting with his demons to decide how to persuade men that God was nonexistent. Since they themselves believed in His existence, they wondered just how to do it. One demon suggested that they tell people Jesus Christ never really existed and that men should not believe such fiction. Another demon suggested that they persuade men that death ends all and there is no need to worry about life after death. Finally, the most intelligent demon suggested that they tell everyone that there is a God, that there is Jesus Christ, and that believing in Him saves, but all you have to do is profess faith in Christ and then go on living in sin as you used to. They decided to use this tactic, and it is the tactic the Devil uses even today.
Paul and James are in perfect harmony in their teaching. When Paul speaks of works, it is works of the Law. He says in Romans 3:20, “Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.” He is saying in effect, “Yes, the Law is a mirror—it reveals you are a sinner—but it cannot save you; the works of the Law cannot save you at all.” James also says that you have to have something more than just the works of the Law. He wrote, “For whosoever shall keep the whole law and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all” (v. 10). As someone has put it, “Man cannot be saved by perfect obedience, for he cannot render it. He cannot be saved by imperfect obedience because God will not accept it.” The only solution to this dilemma is the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, and both James and Paul emphasize that.
In Galatians 2:16 Paul made it clear that men are not saved by the Law, but later in that epistle he wrote, “And let us not be weary in well–doing …” (Gal. 6:9). There is a lot of doing that goes with believing. “Let him that is taught in the word communicate unto him that teacheth in all good things. Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap” (Gal. 6:6–7). In this section of his epistle when James speaks of works, he is speaking of the works of faith. Paul also wrote about works of faith: “For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love” (Gal. 5:6). Both of these men taught that faith must be a working faith. As John Calvin put it, “Faith alone saves, but the faith that saves is not alone.”
Saving faith, therefore, is alive; professing faith is dead. We have a lot of so–called professing Christians today who are members of churches. They are nothing in the world but zombies. They are walking around as if they are alive, but they are dead.
A girl once asked her Sunday school teacher, “How can I be a Christian and still have my own way?” The teacher gave to her Romans 8:5 which says, “For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.” If you are a child of God, you cannot have your own way. You are going to do His way. “Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be…. But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you …” (Rom. 8:7, 9). Paul says that now that you are indwelt by the Spirit of God, you can produce the fruit of the Spirit in your life; if you don’t, there is something radically wrong. A Christian doesn’t do as he pleases; he does as Christ pleases.
During the depression there lived in Pittsburgh a tycoon who was having all kinds of problems in his life. He went to his pastor and, after talking over his problems, he said, “I love my Savior. I love my family. I love my church. I love my business. But there are times I feel like walking out on all four of them.” The pastor looked him straight in the eye and said, “Well, why don’t you?” The man replied, “The reason I don’t is that I am a Christian.” May I say to you, saving faith which makes one a Christian will lead to good works. However, we are so anxious to get church members that we accept them on the slightest profession. As a result, many churches are filled with professing Christians who are really unbelievers.
When we understand how Paul and James use the words faith and works, we can see that they are in total agreement in their teaching.
Now James deals with the identification of faith. Saving faith can be recognized and identified by certain spiritual fingerprints. There is a verification of genuine faith. James gives us this practical illustration—
If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? [James 2:15–16].
Pious cliches and Christian verbiage are not the evidence of saving faith. There must be a vocation to go along with the vocabulary. You can be very pious and say to an individual, “Brother I will pray for you, and I know the Lord will provide.” My friend, the Lord put you there as a child of God to do the providing. I get a little weary sometimes when wealthy Christian laymen pat me on the back and say, “Dr McGee, you are doing a fine thing. You are doing the right thing in giving out the Word of God,” but they do not have a part in supporting this ministry financially. I have a hard time believing they are sincere. You may piously say to someone, “Oh, brother, I’m for you.” Are you for him? Are you back of him? My friend, a living faith produces something—you can identify it.
The Lord Jesus said, “By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another” (John 13:35). Then in Romans 13:8, Paul says, “Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.” The point is that you cannot say you are a child of God and live like a lawless individual. I do not mean that whenever a bum asks you for twenty–five cents in order to buy wine you should give it to him. And I do not think that you should believe every individual who professes to be a Christian. We need to test them out to see whether they are or not. My heart is warmed when I think of a certain man I know who is rendering financial assistance to someone in need and of a lady of means who is supporting a missionary abroad and telling no one about it. May I say to you, you are telling by your life whether your faith is genuine or not.
Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works [James 2:17–18].
“Faith, if it hath not works, is dead.” The faith is dead? Why? Because living faith, saving faith, produces works. You have to draw that conclusion from James’ illustration. He is talking about the fruit of faith. Paul talks about the root of faith. Those are the separate emphases of each man, but both Paul and James say that faith alone saves. Paul also says that faith is going to produce fruit—“But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace …” (Gal. 5:22). The Lord Jesus said, “I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit …” (John 15:5).
A minister once talked to a man who professed conversion, and he asked, “Have you united with the church?” “No, I haven’t,” the man replied. “The dying thief never united with the church, and he went to heaven.” The minister asked, “Have you ever sat at the Lord’s table?” “No, the dying thief never did, and he was accepted” was the answer. The minister asked, “Have you been baptized?” “No,” he said, “the dying thief was never baptized, and he went to heaven.” “Have you given to missions?” “No, the dying thief did not give to missions, and he was not judged for it” was the reply. Then this disgusted minister said to the man, “Well, my friend, the difference between you two seems to be that he was a dying thief and you are a living thief.”
My friend, we often sing, “O for a thousand tongues to sing my great Redeemer’s praise,” but we do not even use the one tongue we have. And we sing, “Were the whole realm of nature mine, that were a present far too small,” and then we give nothing at all to Him. James says it is faith that saves, but saving faith produces something.
Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble [James 2:19].
Lip service is not the evidence of saving faith—even the demons believe.
But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? [James 2:20].
Faith without the fruit of faith is empty and futile as far as the world is concerned.
Now James will give us the illustration of faith—in fact, there will be two illustrations.
Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only [James 2:21–24].
Paul said that Abraham was justified by faith (see Rom. 4:3), and Genesis tells us that he was justified by faith (see Gen. 15:6; 22:1–14). Was Abraham justified when he offered his son Isaac? The question is: Did he offer his son Isaac? And the answer is: No, he didn’t. Then what was Abraham’s work of faith? How did works save him? His faith caused him to lift that knife to do a thing which he did not believe God would ever ask him to do. But since God had asked him, he was willing to do it. He believed that God would raise Isaac from the dead. Abraham never actually offered Isaac, because God provided a substitute, but he would have done it if God had not stopped him.
This is a choice illustration of the fact that you demonstrate your faith by your actions. The action of this man was that he believed God.
James uses a second illustration—
Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way? [James 2:25].
How was Rahab justified by works? She received the Israelite spies, concealed them from her own people, then told them how to escape without being detected (see Josh. 2). That woman living there in the city of Jericho jeopardized her life by turning her back on her old life and on her own people. What was gain to her became loss. She did not say to the Israelite spies, “I’ll just stand on the sidelines when you enter the city and sing, ‘Praise God from whom all blessings flow.’” She did not just say, “Jesus saves and keeps and satisfies.” She did not say, “Hallelujah! Praise the Lord!” She said to them, “I’m going to do something. I will hide you because I believe God is going to give the people of Israel this land. We have been hearing about you for forty years, and I believe God.” My friend, she believed God, and she became involved. She was justified before God by her faith: “By faith the harlot Rahab perished not with them that believed not, when she had received the spies with peace” (Heb. 11:31). However, before her own people and before the Israelites, she was justified by works.
Many years ago I went to a nursery and bought a bare root which was labeled “Santa Rosa plum.” It wasn’t even as big as a broom handle, and it looked no more alive than a broom handle. I was told to put it in the ground in a certain way, and I did that. I watched it, and the next spring it began to shoot out leaves. In three years there were blossoms on it, and then there was fruit. Do you know what kind of fruit was on that tree? Plums. The root of that tree was a plum root.
Faith is the root, and the root produces the kind of fruit that the root itself is. If you have a living faith, there is going to be fruit in your life. Paul says, “Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves …” (2 Cor. 13:5).
And James continues—
For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also [James 2:26].
Faith without works is like a dead body in a morgue. James said that; Paul said that, and Vernon McGee believes both of them because they are giving us God’s Word for it.
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The Church of Jesus Christ is perfect for those who are not!
Posts: 53 | From: Tennessee | Registered: Jun 2009
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covered-by-Him
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Excellent information here Knowhim!
I have copied it for future use.
We have family members that are all "church goers" and claim salvation but.......there is little to no fruit.
What a tragic deception that has been cast before the sheep in these last days.
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Howbeit the most High dwelleth not in
temples made with hands… (Acts 7:48)
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Keeper
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Eden asks the question, What are "good" works for a Christian?"
Remember when I said in a post above that some Christians just don't know what works are due to a lack of knowledge ? (well, I did)
This just proves my point. Eden does not know what works are so how can he know if another Christian is involved in works or not? (he did ask)
We should all know what works are and especially our own. We are given gifts, we need to know about them.
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KnowHim
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1 John 2:3-6 (NIV)
We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands. The man who says, “I know him,” but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But if anyone obeys his word, God’s love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him: Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did.
Sorry but you just can't get around this one. You either know Him or you don't. You can not get to know Him if you want to put yourself first and be the boss. Just don't work that way. Sorry no easy believism will work no matter how hard one tried and hopes they can do as they please and still be saved. This only proves one does not know Him and will will not submit to Him. There is not prayer you can say, not switch you can flip, not hand you can raise that will save you. Only Jesus Christ can save you and He says you must know Him. So I suggest if anyone is not sure they know Him they get on their knees and beg Him to reveal Himself to them.
But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him. ~ Hebrews 11:6 (NKJV)
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Posts: 3276 | From: Charlestown, IN | Registered: Jun 2002
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KnowHim
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>>> What are "good" works for a Christian, .....?
There is no list of good works you have to do to be saved. The only way you will know what you are to be doing is to get to know Jesus Christ. If you believe in Him you will enjoy reading His word the bible. When you get to know Him you will do good works when He asks you to because you love Him not because you are trying to work off a list. If you spend time with Him in prayer the Holy Spirit will place on you what you should being if you listen and submit to Him. If you don't then you don't know Him. If one believes a chair will hold them up they will sit in it not just talk about it.
And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart. - Jeremiah 29:13 (KJV)
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Posts: 3276 | From: Charlestown, IN | Registered: Jun 2002
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Eden
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Carol Swenson wrote quote:
Where there is dynamic faith—saving faith—you will always find good works.
So for a Christian, what constitutes "good" works?
Reading the Bible? Praying? Giving alms? Being as honest as possible? Honor one's father and mother?
What "good" works are you talking about? The fruits of the Spirit? Is it possible to have "just SOME of the fruits of the Spirit" but NOT ALL the fruits of the Spirit?
Carol Swenson wrote quote:
Where there is dynamic faith—saving faith—you will always find good works.
What are "good" works for a Christian, Carol Swenson?
love, Eden
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Eden
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Carol Swenson wrote quote:
Justification is a judicial act of God pardoning sinners (wicked and ungodly persons, Rom. 4:5; 3:9-24), accepting them as just, and so putting permanently right their previously estranged relationship with himself. This justifying sentence is God’s gift of righteousness (Rom. 5:15-17), his bestowal of a status of acceptance for Jesus’ sake (2 Cor. 5:21).
Carol Swenson, never a Christian spoke more plainly and truthfully.
love, Eden
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Carol Swenson
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Justification is a judicial act of God pardoning sinners (wicked and ungodly persons, Rom. 4:5; 3:9-24), accepting them as just, and so putting permanently right their previously estranged relationship with himself. This justifying sentence is God’s gift of righteousness (Rom. 5:15-17), his bestowal of a status of acceptance for Jesus’ sake (2 Cor. 5:21).
God’s justifying judgment seems strange, for pronouncing sinners righteous may appear to be precisely the unjust action on the judge’s part that God’s own law forbade (Deut. 25:1; Prov. 17:15). Yet it is in fact a just judgment, for its basis is the righteousness of Jesus Christ who as “the last Adam” (1 Cor. 15:45), our representative head acting on our behalf, obeyed the law that bound us and endured the retribution for lawlessness that was our due and so (to use a medieval technical term) “merited” our justification. So we are justified justly, on the basis of justice done (Rom. 3:25-26) and Christ’s righteousness reckoned to our account (Rom. 5:18-19).
True saving faith leads to action . Dynamic faith is not intellectual contemplation or emotional consternation; it leads to obedience on the part of the will. And this obedience is not an isolated event: it continues throughout the whole life. It leads to works.
Many different kinds of works are named in the New Testament. “The works of the Law” (Gal. 2:16) relate to the sinner’s attempt to please God by obeying the Law of Moses. Of course, it is impossible for a sinner to be saved through the works of the Law. “The works of the flesh” (Gal. 5:19) are done by unsaved people who live for the things of the old nature. There are also “wicked works” (Col. 1:21) and “dead works” (Heb. 9:14). Where there is dynamic faith - saving faith - you will always find good works .
Posts: 6787 | From: Colorado | Registered: Dec 2007
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Keeper
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SUBJECT; SAVED...OR NOT SAVED?
So far we have looked at counterfeit Christians, Christians who don't look like Christians, and sheep in wolves clothing, etc. All good comments and appreciated.
It has been rightfully told and read by many that works has nothing to do with you being saved. However, there are scriptures that have confused a lot of us over time. James 2 14-26 and it is difficult to get the right meaning.
Why these counterfeit Christians? I will try to explain my understanding. A Christian that does nothing that makes it apparent that they are a Christian is most likely due to lack of knowledge. I suggest that they want to be a good Christian but it is like going to college and on day one you call yourself a (choose an occupation...)lawyer. If you don't hit the books and hear the lectures and check out what you were taught you may never be a lawyer. The difference though of course it that when you are saved you are a Christian and can call yourself one. As far as you know then you are. As you learn you will discover that you really were given grace to be saved. If you don't do these things then maybe you are just fooling yourself and others.
As for being a Christian and talking the talk and mixing with Christians, etc you could also very easily be missing what Jesus spoke of many times...works. Why, you just don't hear much spoken of it from the pulpit and especially not in any detail to speak of. After saved you are given assignments in your talents through the Holy Spirit and these are called works. If you do not do the works then your faith in Jesus is not displayed for the glory of God. There are different kinds of works and those details are for another board.
Lets talk about "justified" (dikatoo) it means to set forth as righteous, justify.
James 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is JUSTIFIED (set forth as righteousness), and not by faith only.
v 26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
So, if the Christian is not acting like a new born person then how can you say "Ye see then...like in v 24 above? You can't see, and you can't see faith either. If you have the spirit there needs to be works.
No need to give any comments on wolves in sheep's clothing.
Our works were predesignated by God, he most likely had us train to do it before saved and has a place for us in the church. How many know that ?
Getting into the word is serious business.
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Bloodbought
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quote:
Originally posted by Eden:
Bloodbought, I believe the scriptures. But let me ask you, among all the millions of presumably saved Christians, isn't it true that the VAST majority of them live "almost the same life that they lived before"?
I believe that there are many who have false professions and are not led by the Spirit. There are DIY (do it yourself) so-called Christians, but there is no DIY in God’s economy. Faith in God means total dependence on Him for guidance and direction.
Prov 3:6 KJV In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.
We don’t walk by sight, we walk by what God says in His word. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God.
Who of professing believers are saved and who aren’t I don’t know. Judas fooled everyone up to the point when he betrayed the Lord, his fruit did show up, but not until he was almost at the end of his life. So it’s difficult to distinguish the fruit of an unbeliever from that of a believer up to a certain point when he seems to have fallen away, but in reality he never was saved in the first place, only God knows the heart.
A true believer will know Christ and is indwelt by His Spirit and led by His Spirit.
Rom 8:9 KJV But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
The Holy Spirit has a message for all churches; however, the preaching of repentance is neglected in many churches today.
Two of the seven churches in Revelation got quite good marks while in the other five churches there is a call to repentance.
Five out of seven need to repent, perhaps that in some way answers your question.
Revelation 2:1 KJV Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; 4 I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love. 5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent,
8 And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; 10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.
12 And to the angel of the church in Pergamos write; 14 I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balac to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols, and to commit fornication. 15 So hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitans, which thing I hate. 16 Repent;
18 And unto the angel of the church in Thyatira write; 20 I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols. 21 And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not.
Revelation 3:1 KJV And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; 2 I have not found thy works perfect before God. 3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent.
7 And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; 8 I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name .
14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; 15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot. 16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth. 17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked: 18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see. 19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.
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Found in Him
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Know Him.. Thank you! Your post is an eye opener this morning. That really is scary stuff...the root of easy believe(ism) is deception. All must come to know The Lord Jesus Christ in a personal relationship without exception. Maybe we (I) take for granted that everyone that calls themselves a Christian knows The Lord..but truthfully, they really cannot say with their heart that they do know Him... I don't even know what to say to that! It grieves my heart..but opens my eyes...
James 2:24 You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.
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~To Him That is able to keep you from falling and to present you before His glorious presence without fault and with great joy...to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.~ Jude 24
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Carol Swenson
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KnowHim
Really Excellent. Thank you for posting this.
Posts: 6787 | From: Colorado | Registered: Dec 2007
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KnowHim
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What Is A Counterfeit Christian?
A counterfeit Christian is someone who looks saved, talks saved, an act saved, but they are not saved. They usually believe they are saved. Some know they are not saved but want to fit in with those who are.
They often say the right things, hang out with the right people, some even read their bible and pray, but they are still lost and on their way to hell for eternity.
Someone can appear to be a Christian and still be lost. They can think they’re a Christian and still be lost. Many hang around and grow up with Christians but they are still be lost.
Sometimes being around “religious things” most of ones life will cause people to think they are saved.
We must realizes the counterfeit modern gospel produces counterfeit Christians who unknowingly have received a different Jesus and a different god, than those of the true gospel. They have been assured by Preachers that they have been born-again. Teaching a gospel that does not include the requirements of repentance and self-denial, is not complete; and the birth that it produces is not of God. Those who preach and teach without including these requirements are as a wolf in sheep’s clothing, deceiving many.
One of the hindrances people face is illiteracy. Most Christians do not read and study the bible for themselves. We need to realize that elements of true and false Christianity will be intermingled in the same world, in the same church, even in the same person. Any attempt to "weed out" the false runs the risk of uprooting the true as well.
Our goal as Christians should not be to weed out all the "tares" in the church, but to do everything possible to teach the truth to the true "wheat" in the church making so strong and healthy that the "tares" are powerless to against it.
"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity." Matthew 7:21-23
Jesus teaches that there will be false converts that He never knew and they will be going to Hell. In Jesus' own words, there will be MORE on the broad road (which is a RELIGIOUS road) - "many" - than on the NARROW road - "few".
Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are FEW who find it. - Matthew 7:14 (NKJV)
How can counterfeit Christians be identified?
Counterfeit Christians can teach, preach, profess faith, do miracles, and perform good works (Matthew 7:15, 21-22). In the parable, no one noticed the problem until the wheat began to reproduce, forming heads prior to the harvest (vs. 26). The key difference between wheat and weeds is not in what they do, but in what they are. Wheat reproduces wheat. They are different by nature.
“By their fruit you will recognize them” Jesus compares a fruit-bearing tree to a Christian
Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Matthew 7:15-21 (KJV)
And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him. He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked. - 1 John 2:3 through 1 John 2:6 (KJV)
In Mark 3:35, Jesus tells us that "whosoever shall do the will of God, the same is my brother, and my sister, and mother."
Notice that it is not just a Christian profession of faith that counts, it is not their good works, but whether or not they know Jesus Christ as Savior! Is there a personal relationship? Have they trusted Him in faith for their salvation? Knowing Him?
There are serious people, preachers, very religious people that know who Jesus Christ is, they recognize that He is the Lord, but they never knew Him. No relationship, they never received Him as Savior. They are not family. They had made a profession of faith, but there is no relationship. Read what Paul told Timothy:
2 Timothy 3:1-9 NIV
But mark this: There will be terrible times in the last days. People will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, proud, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, without love, unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not lovers of the good, treacherous, rash, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God-- having a form of godliness but denying its power. Have nothing to do with them.
Paul is saying they are counterfeit Christians. They have a form of godliness. They may look good on the surface, but that is it. On the outside you can barely tell them apart. But on the inside they don’t know Jesus Christ. They have a divided heart. They have not come to know Jesus Christ, but religion.
Matthew 7:16
By their fruit you will know them.
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Eden
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Bloodbought wrote quote:
Does a saved sinner have to change? No, that would be legalism. When God brings a sinner to repentance and faith, He also brings about a change within the believer to walk according to His ordained divine plan, which is different for each believer.
Ephesians 2:10 (KJV)
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
If a professing believer isn’t showing Godly actions they should examine themselves.
Bloodbought, I believe the scriptures. But let me ask you, among all the millions of presumably saved Christians, isn't it true that the VAST majority of them live "almost the same life that they lived before"?
They do believe that Jesus was the Lord from heaven and died for them on the cross, and probably they now go to church on Sundays, but that's about all they do.
Now, they were sinners when God found them and saved them by having Jesus die for them, and now they are saved sinners.
So Bloodbought, would you admit that that is the condition of the VAST MAJORITY of Christians in the world, but are you also prepared to say that they are therefore NOT saved, since they don't really show forth:
Ephesians 2:10 (KJV)
For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God has before ordained that we should walk in them.
Are the vast majority of Christians walking in them or not, and if not, what's up with that? Does that mean that all those sinners whom God found are not saved after all and that there are in fact BUT A FEW CHRISTIANS?
Personally I think God is going to turn out MUCH MORE GENEROUS than we stingy human beings ever dared imagine.
love, Eden
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Bloodbought
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quote:
Originally posted by Eden:
Indeed, is it not true that all things that come to us AFTER salvation pertains to REWARDS and NOT to salvation?
Yes, but spiritual rewards do not stem from our own selfish efforts. Rewards are the result of faithfulness to the demands of scripture even in times of persecution and as Christ is faithfully building His Church He will also receive the reward of His sufferings. Sinners aren’t saved for what they can get out of it, they are saved for the glory of God.
Does a saved sinner have to change? No, that would be legalism. When God brings a sinner to repentance and faith, He also brings about a change within the believer to walk according to His ordained divine plan, which is different for each believer.
Ephesians 2:10 (KJV)
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
If a professing believer isn’t showing Godly actions they should examine themselves.
2 Corinthians 13:5 (ESV)
Examine yourselves, to see whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Or do you not realize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?—unless indeed you fail to meet the test!
If those who claim to be born again believers are to pass the test, they will do what is right by the power of the spirit of truth, even though they are looking at others who seem to have failed the test. We are exhorted to follow truth and not to allow others who seem to have failed the test to distract us or become a stumbling block.
2 Corinthians 13:6-8 (ESV)
I hope you will find out that we have not failed the test. But we pray to God that you may not do wrong- not that we may appear to have met the test, but that you may do what is right, though we may seem to have failed. For we cannot do anything against the truth, but only for the truth.
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Keeper
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EDEN Poo, I'm not sure what upset FoundInHim about our conversation.
About the demons believing in salvation, I meant they do just like they believe in Satan. That's all. Seemed like you asked.
As for the wrong Jesus...If I could only get you to read Mark 13...how long have I been trying to get you to do that ? lol
Jesus is telling about the things that will happen leading into the end times:
Mark 13:6 For many shall come in My name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
Mark 13:13 An ye shall be hated of all men for My name's sake; but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
Mark 13:21-22 And then if any man shall say to you, Lo, here is Christ; or, lo He is there believe him not. v 22 For false Christs and false prophets shall rise and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.
Satan has not given up and determined to take over regardless...
Revelation 16:14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
Revelation 16:16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
Revelation 16:17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the Temple of heaven from the throne, saying "It is done."
Revelation 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired Satan shall be loosed out of his prison.
v8 and shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, God and Magog, to gather them together to battle, the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. v9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city; and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. (Last day of the Mil.) v10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Well. he tried.
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KnowHim
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quote:
Originally posted by Eden:
Indeed, is it not true that all things that come to us AFTER salvation pertains to REWARDS and NOT to salvation?
love, Eden
Yes if one is really saved, but not when they don't show the fruit. One must be born again to be saved. There is no easy believism no matter how bad you want it. Just teach people to come to know Jesus Christ and then they will be saved.
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It may surprise you to learn that Scripture never once exhorts sinners to "accept Christ". The familiar twenty-first-century evangelistic appeal in all its variations ("make a decision for Christ"; "ask Jesus into your heart"; "try Jesus"; "accept Jesus as your personal Savior"), violates both the spirit and the terminology of the biblical summons to unbelievers.
The gospel invitation is not an entreaty for sinners to allow the Savior into their lives. It is both an appeal and a command for them to repent and follow Him. It demands not just passive acceptance of Christ but active submission to Him as well. Those unwilling to surrender to Christ cannot recruit Him to be part of a crowded life. He will not respond to the beckoning of a heart that cherishes sin. He will not enter into partnership with one who loves to fulfill the passions of the flesh. He will not heed the plea of a rebel who simply wants Him to enter and by His presence sanctify a life of continued disobedience.
John MacArthur "The Gospel According to Jesus" - He Offers a Yoke of Rest , Page 116
http://www.christianbook.com/Christian/Books/product?event=AFF&p=1010849&item_no=287292
1 John 2:3-6 (NIV)
We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands. The man who says, “I know him,” but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But if anyone obeys his word, God’s love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him: Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did.
Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. - Matthew 7:14
And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart. - Jeremiah 29:13 (KJV)
Wondering if you are really saved? Then ask yourself these questions, Do I have a real relationship with the Lord Jesus? Am I growing closer to Him and walking in obedience to His Word? Is there fruit in my life? If you have fears and doubts, ask God if you are truly saved. He will let you know.
There is no easy push button way of being saved. You must come to know Jesus Christ and follow Him. That is the bottom line.
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity - Matthew 7:21-23
The above is the truth and if one is saved they will know it is and not seek easy believism!
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Found in Him
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I'm sorry but I find no encouragement, edification or anything to be learned from the above statements. This is not iron that sharpens iron but rather friction that is offensive and often abusive. May God encourage you to speak in love.
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~To Him That is able to keep you from falling and to present you before His glorious presence without fault and with great joy...to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.~ Jude 24
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Eden
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Keeper wrote quote:
Eden...I am not so sure that the demons don't believe in salvation.
The demons believe that humans are going to receive salvation, but they do not believe in salvation for themselves; they know that they are lost and that's why they tremble at what's coming.
Keeper continued quote:
There will be a lot of Christians believing in salvation too but to the wrong Jesus.
The WRONG Jesus??? Who is that? The Pope??? In my life I have heard of only one Jesus of Nazareth ... is there also a Jesus of Hebron and a Jesus of Tekoa and a Jesus of Shechem??? Who is the WRONG Jesus, Keeper?
Keeper continued quote:
Satan knows all about salvation and of course he believe in it.
Of course Satan knows all about salvation, but he knows it's NOT for him, and of course Satan believes that this salvation is for human sinners and NOT for demons.
Keeper continued quote:
However, even though he has been told that he is scheduled for the pit and hell it will have to be proven to him. His followers will be right behind him until that last day.
I don't think that Satan needs to have it proven to him that he and his demons are headed for the pit, or worse.
At least I can say THIS MUCH for Satan, namely that Satan understands MUCH BETTER THAN WE DO how TRUTHFUL God is; Satan knows very well that if God said it, he is 100% screwed and no further proof will be necessary, and that's why they are already trembling.
Keeper continued: quote:
As for the couple who believed and received, what happened to them and what their future is will be was and is known by Jesus. There is no way that you or I can know. We can guess but it is all about Jesus. Many Christians make serious changes but are not on display, and some do get seen. When the plate comes by how can you know what the others give ? Many things can transpire in the lives of believers that we don't know about.
Exactly. Therefore we should not act as if the belief of people "never was real belief" ... belief is belief and not a chocolate chip cookie.
love, Eden
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Found in Him wrote (again) quote:
Eden... James 2:19 You believe that there is one God. That's fine! Even the demons believe that and tremble with fear.
Of course the demons believe what is going to happen to them and they tremble because of it.
But that does not mean that we human beings have to tremble or that somehow our belief is faulty. Sure, what is promised to the demons is terrible, but what is promised to US is wonderful and therefore WE do not need to tremble.
Indeed, I think that when we are finally glorified (saved), we will find that we people were being VERY STINGY about who we thought DESERVED to be saved; I think God will prove to be MUCH MORE MAGNANIMOUS in His Free Gift of Eternal Life than we stingy human beings are willing to give to people.
The Bible is clear that ALL a sinner has to do is repent of having lived an "Adam and Eve lifestyle"
as a result of being "born altogether in sin", and ALL it takes is BELIEF that God meant it when God said that Jesus died in our place.
And there are MILLIONS of ordinary Christians who BELIEVE that and are therefore SAVED, SAVED, SAVED, merely by believing.
And then some go further with God and also seek after rewards by "helping in the vineyard of the Lord" and by "bringing forth fruits of the Spirit" (they became a little sweeter?), but that all pertains to rewards (sanctification) and NOT to salvation.
So what now, Found in Him, are you going to say that the BELIEF of a majority of Christians is TOO WEAK a belief or a FAULTY belief?
My God, woman, I think we will find that God will be WAAAAAAY more generous with His Salvation than we stingy human beings dare to be.
love, Eden
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Keeper
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Eden...I am not so sure that the demons don't believe in salvation. There will be a lot of Christians believing in salvation too but to the wrong Jesus.
Satan know all about salvation and of course he believe in it. However, even though he has been told that he is scheduled for the pit and hell it will have to be proven to him. His followers will be right behind him until that last day.
As for the couple who believed and received, what happened to them and what their future is will be was and is known by Jesus. There is no way that you or I can know. We can guess but it is all about Jesus. Many Christians make serious changes but are not on display, and some do get seen. When the plate comes by how can you know what the others give ? Many things can transpire in the lives of believers that we don't know about.
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Found in Him
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Eden... James 2:19 You believe that there is one God. That's fine! Even the demons believe that and tremble with fear.
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~To Him That is able to keep you from falling and to present you before His glorious presence without fault and with great joy...to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.~ Jude 24
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Eden
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Found in Him wrote quote:
Eden...The word of God says that the demons believe and tremble..does that make them saved??? CERTAINLY NOT!
The demons believe and tremble about what is going to happen to them, but the demons also know that salvation is not for them so they know that they cannot believe for salvation like we humans can believe for salvation.
The demons do not believe for salvation but the demons believe that God does not lie when God tells the demons what is going to happen to them, and that makes the demons tremble. The demons' belief and trembling therefore has NOTHING to do with "believing for salvation".
love, Eden
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Carol Swenson
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The believer is regenerated by the Holy Spirit.
The believer is sealed by the Holy Spirit
The believer is sanctified by the Holy Spirit.
The believer bears fruit by the Holy Spirit.
The believer loves and obeys our Lord Jesus Christ.
John 14:15 - 17 (NLT)
15 “If you love me, obey my commandments. 16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Advocate, who will never leave you. 17 He is the Holy Spirit, who leads into all truth. The world cannot receive him, because it isn’t looking for him and doesn’t recognize him. But you know him, because he lives with you now and later will be in you.
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Found in Him
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Eden...The word of God says that the demons believe and tremble..does that make them saved??? CERTAINLY NOT!
There will be evidence of a new creation period.
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~To Him That is able to keep you from falling and to present you before His glorious presence without fault and with great joy...to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.~ Jude 24
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Eden
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Hi, sister Found in Him, thanks for adding to this Topic. You quoted 2 Corinthians 5:17 from the Bible: quote:
"Therefore if any man is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things are passed away; behold, new things have come."
Hi, Found in Him, I agree that that is what the Bible says, that we sinners who received the free gift of eternal by believing in Jesus while we were yet sinners, have, scripturally, become a "new man".
I like to see that as a "new kind of creature", no longer "just descended from Adam and Eve" but also "born of the Spirit of God who now Counsels us". That to me is indeed the "new man" of 2Cor.5:17.
But let's be honest now, when I look at all the sinners who are saved by believing in Jesus, all the families which were living decent lives but were sinners, while they were yet sinners they accepted Christ and became, well, SAVED SINNERS.
So now they are a "new creature". But when I look at all those "decent" sinners who accepted Jesus while they were yet sinners, HAVE THEY REALLY CHANGED THAT MUCH?
To me, I know that they are saved sinners, but they don't look like they have changed all that much even after they believed in Jesus for salvation (i.e., that Jesus died in their place).
They're still leading "decent lives" in the community, but now they are Christians, meaning that they who were sinners accepted Jesus dying in their place, so that they could receive the free gift of eternal life.
They die as decent families, but in my mind, they have and will receive the free gift of eternal life because they believed God and Jesus in the Bible.
So what was "new man" about that family, Found in Him?
There are a couple of things that I can think of that were "new man" in them, and they are:
1. This family now prays to their Lord Jesus and to the LORD YHWH.
2. This family now respects and/or loves the Bible whereas before the Bible was "nonsense".
3. This family now participates in a church, whereas church before was "a waste of time".
So Found in Him, is THAT the "new man"?
And yes, the Bible also talks about "acquiring the fruits of the Spirit", but how are they acquired by such a typical Christian family, a decent family which is now saved by believing in Jesus?
And, once we as unsaved sinners have believed that Jesus died in our place, and then we are saved sinners, does a saved sinner have to change if God already loved the sinner BEFORE the sinner was saved and gave eternal life to the sinner by merely believing in Jesus?
love, Eden
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Found in Him
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"Therefore if any man is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things are passed away; behold, new things have come." (2 Corinthians 5:17).
Before becoming Christians we were without Christ, God and hope (Ephesians 2:12,13;). But now those who have obeyed the gospel are "in Christ". and therefore in a state of having received God's grace. The "old man" of sin has been discarded, crucified, and buried (Ephesians 4:22-24; Galatians 2:20; Romans 6:3,4; Colossians 2:12). In his place, a "new man" has risen.
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~To Him That is able to keep you from falling and to present you before His glorious presence without fault and with great joy...to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.~ Jude 24
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Eden
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Romans 5:8
But God commends His love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
Romans 5:10
For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of His Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.
Let's say that a sinner man has a sinner wife and a couple of sinner children, none of whom are saved. They are nice people and mostly live a decent American life in the suburbs.
And one day the husband and the wife see that Jesus died on the cross for them, and they believe on Him who died for them, and they are saved:
Romans 4:24
But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on Him who raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead.
After having believed, this husband and wife continue to live their decent life in the suburbs, being not worse than they were before they were saved, and they are thankful that Jesus died for them.
And by the time death comes to them, they are still a nice family in the suburbs, about the same as they have always been, but saved ...
Romans 5:8
But God commends His love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
Romans 5:10
For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of His Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.
John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
If God loved us while we were yet sinners and saved us while we were yet sinners by His Son, then this family in the suburbs are saved, right, just by adding Jesus through belief, are they not?
If we are saved while sinners, do we not also remain saved sinners after we have believed? I fear that often we speak as if a saved sinner somehow becomes UNsaved even if the saved family "continues to live the same decent life that they were always living and are certainly NOT worse than before they were saved thru belief in Jesus"?
John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Indeed, is it not true that all things that come to us AFTER salvation pertains to REWARDS and NOT to salvation?
love, Eden
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