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Topic: Legalism As Idolatry
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Keeper
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posted
If I had written it, I sure would hate to have to explain it.
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Keeper
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posted
Did BecauseHeLives say?
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Keeper
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OneInChrist, I don't guess that I explained my message to you properly. Let me put it another way.
Here is what you said: What if I do not know the difference (or the difference becomes blurred to me) between "Legalism" and "Obedience to the gospel? Then I could go on thinking that I can reject the teaching and authority of Jesus Christ?...right.
Men, you must wear a suit and tie to church=Legalism
Men, you must be willing to bear REPROACH for the name of Christ...Obedience to the gospel.
Note: the subject is Legalism as Idolatry.
Here are my revised comments:
LIGALISM is an attitude of strict and ridged adherence to Mosaic Law, which is not of the New Covenant.
Romans 10:2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge. v3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
Gal 3:1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? v2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
v3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
Gal 2:11-13 and v14 But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?
So let's call Legalism what it is, which is any distortion or misuse of the law through which a Christian is drawn away from the basic spiritual principles of reliance on Christ to adopt a works-oriented approach to the living the Christian life, not all that other stuff. What other stuff ? Works, not faith, etc.
Then, One in Christ, when I tried to explain that I thought your term "Isn't OBEDIENCE to the Gospel" confusing? You said...I think not.
OK, then let me ask it this way. If the Gospel is the Message concerning Christ, the kingdom of God and salvation, how do you become obedient to a message? I realize that if you respond to the message it leads you to Christ, but He is not the Gospel which is only the message.
What you were addressing your Obedience to was being able to bear REPROACH in the Name of Christ. But, Reproached means to be willing to be scorned or degraded in the Name of Christ.
Reading through here you will find that this thing called Legalism has been called just about everything, but not much of what it really means.
It is sort of like, welllll, if it is a bad thing then it must be legalism, but that just isn't so.
How about fanatic, or one who got carried away or misguided, how about a Nut ?
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Keeper
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posted
did you say "To put it loosely?"
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becauseHElives
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Idolatry is anything mankind puts before Yahweh....
Legalism is religious mankind attempting to add any act of self will to the mercy of Yahweh ....
Grace which brings forth Eternal Salvation is the work of the Spirit in the heart of the human soul which brings obedience to the Will of Yahweh forth in the heart of the truly converted.
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
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Carol Swenson
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The New Testament views Christian obedience as the practice of “good deeds” (works). Christians are to be “rich in good deeds” (1 Tim. 6:18; cf. Matt. 5:16; Eph. 2:10; 2 Tim. 3:17; Titus 2:7, 14; 3:8, 14). A good deed is one done (a) according to the right standard (God’s revealed will, i.e., his moral law); (b) from a right motive (the love to God and others that marks the regenerate heart); (c) with a right purpose (pleasing and glorifying God, honoring Christ, advancing his kingdom, and benefiting one’s neighbor).
Legalism is a distortion of obedience that can never produce truly good works. Its first fault is that it skews motive and purpose, seeing good deeds as essentially ways to earn more of God’s favor than one has at the moment. Its second fault is arrogance. Belief that one’s labor earns God’s favor begets contempt for those who do not labor in the same way. Its third fault is lovelessness in that its self-advancing purpose squeezes humble kindness and creative compassion out of the heart.
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Carol Swenson
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It must be stressed that the moral law, as crystallized in the Decalogue and opened up in the ethical teaching of both Testaments, is one coherent law, given to be a code of practice for God’s people in every age. In addition, repentance means resolving henceforth to seek God’s help in keeping that law. The Spirit is given to empower law-keeping and make us more and more like Christ, the archetypal law-keeper (Matt. 5:17). This law-keeping is in fact the fulfilling of our human nature, and Scripture holds out no hope of salvation for any who, whatever their profession of faith, do not seek to turn from sin to righteousness (1 Cor. 6:9-11; Rev. 21:8).
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oneinchrist
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Hi Keeper,
You ask.........Isnt "obedience" to the gospel confusing? I think.......not really.
REPENTANCE is a question of obedience--Will we obey the command to repent by renouncing our sin/rebellious spirit and humbling ourselves before God in acknowledgement of our desperate need for a Savior who will intercede to God for us?
FAITH is a question of obedience--Will we obey the command to believe and trust in Jesus by answering His call to enter into discipleship? ....where Gods will becomes #1 priority.
with love in Christ, Daniel
Posts: 1389 | From: Wind Lake, WI | Registered: May 2007
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Keeper
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And furthermore...hehe
Legalism is an Attitude of Strict and Rigid adherence to Mosaic Law, expressed in Scripture as:
Reliance on observing the Law as a means to salvation, Romans 10:2,3.
Reliance on observing the Law as a means of spiritual growth, as in Gal 3:1-3.
Insistence on observing the Law as a criterion of acceptance in the Christian community, as in Gal 2:11-14
But,
Now the scriptures teach us that our standing with God is dependent on his grace rather than on our works.
Legalism, then, is any distortion or misuse of the Law through which the Christian is drawn away from the basic spiritual principles of reliance on Christ to adopt a works-oriented approach to living the Christian life.
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Keeper
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As for a comment made above One In Christ, it might help when speaking of reproach, to see it as meant.
You said: Being willing to bear REPROACH for the Name of Christ..."obedience to the gospel".
Shouldn't "obedience to the gospel" read "willingness to be scorned" or "bring into discredit" ?
Jesus told us that we will be scorned, called stupid, called ignorant, goodies like that, for the Name of Christ.
One more thing. (I'm sorry) Doesn't "Gospel" mean the message concerning Christ, the kingdom of God and salvation? Isn't "obedience" to the gospel confusing?
Oh Well, why not...for men to wear suits and ties to church was never in the law, it was man made. Legalism is strict literal or excessive conformity to the law or to a religious or moral code.
By the way, I am not trying to scorn you. hehe
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becauseHElives
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quote:
Men , you must wear a suit and tie to church=legalism........
Men, you must be willing to bear reproach for the Name of Christ.....obedience to the gospel
oneinchrist ![[thumbsup2]](graemlins/thumbsup2.gif) ![[Bible]](graemlins/bible.gif) ![[Cross]](graemlins/cross.gif) ![[Prayer]](graemlins/prayer.gif)
excellent, simple, concise, scriptural, practical, example
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
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Found in Him
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Hi Oneinchrist,
How do you clear the vision? You now have access to God through prayer, The Holy Spirit that leads and guides you into all truth and the word of God as your compass.
You now have a personal relationship with God Himself and he will rear you as a son.
He said that He would not leave us as orphans.
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~To Him That is able to keep you from falling and to present you before His glorious presence without fault and with great joy...to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.~ Jude 24
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oneinchrist
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What if I do not know the difference(or the difference becomes blurred to me) between "legalism" and "obedience to the gospel"?
Then I could go on thinking that I can reject the teaching and authority of Jesus Christ?.....right?
Men , you must wear a suit and tie to church=legalism........Men,you must be willing to bear reproach for the Name of Christ.....obedience to the gospel
With love in Christ, Daniel
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Found in Him
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Matthew 5:3-9
3"Blessed are the poor in spirit,
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
4Blessed are those who mourn,
for they will be comforted.
5Blessed are the meek,
for they will inherit the earth.
6Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness,
for they will be filled.
7Blessed are the merciful,
for they will be shown mercy.
8Blessed are the pure in heart,
for they will see God.
9Blessed are the peacemakers,
for they will be called sons of God.
10Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness,
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Jesus teaches his disciples about how to live.
Note that he is not concerned about the 613 commandments.
He indicates:
Blessed are the poor in spirit, they who mourn, the meek, they who hunger and thirst after righteousness, the merciful, the pure in heart, the peacemakers.
This is a light yoke. It’s all about our relationship to God and our relationship to our neighbors.
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~To Him That is able to keep you from falling and to present you before His glorious presence without fault and with great joy...to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.~ Jude 24
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Found in Him
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AMEN Carol!
Jesus said that people could take his yoke. Not doubling up with the yoke of legalism, but simply his yoke.
The burden of his yoke is light, and people will find rest for their souls.
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~To Him That is able to keep you from falling and to present you before His glorious presence without fault and with great joy...to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.~ Jude 24
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Carol Swenson
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1 Timothy 2:5 - 6 (NLT)
5 For there is only one God and one Mediator who can reconcile God and humanity—the man Christ Jesus. 6 He gave his life to purchase freedom for everyone. This is the message God gave to the world at just the right time.
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Found in Him
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Legalism judges NOT only the saint but the sinner as well!
Where is the focus on the gospel (good news) of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ?
Where is the love for not only the Brethren, but the lost?
They set themselves up as judges rather than fellow servants of The Lord, attempting to bind a yoke of slavery upon God's people.
The word of God exhorts us to "stand firm" for freedom.
Galatians 5
Freedom in Christ
1 It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery.
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~To Him That is able to keep you from falling and to present you before His glorious presence without fault and with great joy...to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.~ Jude 24
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Betty Louise
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Legalism is adding rules that man made, not God. The Pharisees did this.
Legalism is making salvation about works and not about grace.
Carol is right, legalism is idolatry.
Thank you Carol for posting that.
betty
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
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Carol Swenson
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Good morning becauseHElives,
Respectfully sir, I believe you know the answer. But, for the sake of our visitors, I will try to offer an explanation.
Legalism generally applies to cults, such as the old Worldwide Church of God. You are well read so I'm sure you are aware of how dangerous such cults are. They have ruined, and even destroyed, the lives of many people.
Legalism is judgmental and cruel.
Obedience is loving and kind.
Matthew was a tax collector. The legalists despised and rejected him, but our Lord Jesus Christ called him, loved him, and changed him. In time, Matthew wrote one of the gospel accounts.
The legalists despised and rejected the Samaritans and the Gentiles. But the apostles, in obedience to the Holy Spirit, welcomed all who believed into the church.
Legalists demand that people do certain things in certain ways and on certain days, but obedience is new everyday. One example of obedience is:
Acts 8:26 - 35 (NLT)
26 As for Philip, an angel of the Lord said to him, “Go south down the desert road that runs from Jerusalem to Gaza.” 27 So he started out, and he met the treasurer of Ethiopia, a eunuch of great authority under the Kandake, the queen of Ethiopia. The eunuch had gone to Jerusalem to worship, 28 and he was now returning. Seated in his carriage, he was reading aloud from the book of the prophet Isaiah. 29 The Holy Spirit said to Philip, “Go over and walk along beside the carriage.” 30 Philip ran over and heard the man reading from the prophet Isaiah. Philip asked, “Do you understand what you are reading?” 31 The man replied, “How can I, unless someone instructs me?” And he urged Philip to come up into the carriage and sit with him. 32 The passage of Scripture he had been reading was this: “He was led like a sheep to the slaughter. And as a lamb is silent before the shearers, he did not open his mouth. 33 He was humiliated and received no justice. Who can speak of his descendants? For his life was taken from the earth.” 34 The eunuch asked Philip, “Tell me, was the prophet talking about himself or someone else?” 35 So beginning with this same Scripture, Philip told him the Good News about Jesus.
Do both legalism and obedience teach morality? Yes they do. But legalism is man made. Even if it is based on scripture, it is man's attempt to please God. Obedience is the work of the Holy Spirit within us, and through us.
A final word, legalists crucified our Lord Jesus Christ.
Legalism and obedience are not the same.
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oneinchrist
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If "obedience" itself was "legalism" then we would have to conclude that Paul and Peter both preached "legalism".
2Thessalonians 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
Acts 5:32 And we are His witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey Him.
In fact we would also have to conclude that God the Father preached legalism when He said.....
"This is my beloved Son: Hear(obey)ye Him!"
Now the distinction that needs to be made here concerning legalism is that "legalism" usually involves some external mode of conduct whereas, in contrast, "obedience to the gospel" involves change of heart, change of purpose . Although, we do need to exercise caution with these generalities in defintion because, for example, adultery is still sin and contrary to Gods will and "being baptized in the Name of the Lord" is the will of God and should not be equated with "legalism" .
With love in Christ, Daniel
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becauseHElives
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so is obedience legalism?
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
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Carol Swenson
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IDOLATRY is making anything other than God absolute. In legalistic religion, the individual is absorbed into the system and loses identity and self esteem. Peace with God is a gift and not a work of law. Romans 10:4: "Christ is the end (or "goal" Gk. Telos) of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes."
Read Romans 5:1-10; Galatians 2:16, 20-21; Galatians 5:1, 13-15; Ephesians 2:8-9 for the triumph of love and grace over law.
Legalism denies the love and power of God in Jesus in the Gospels. Legalism has certain distinct features in the Bible and today:
Legalism is self centered. "Look what I have done."
Luke 18:9-14.
Legalism emphasizes the externals and becomes preoccupied with trivia.
Matthew 23:5-6, 24-25.
Legalism makes things other than God absolute.
Mark 7:5-9.
Legalism obscures a clear view of God.
Matthew 23:13, 15.
Legalism is insensitive to human need.
Mark 3:1-2; Luke 10:25-37
Legalism ignores individuality.
Matthew 23:4; 11:28-30.
Legalism develops into a religion of experts.
Matthew 15:3-6; 23:3; 18:1-4.
Legalism creates judgment and divisions.
Mark 11:15-18; Luke 20:19-20.
Legalism always needs more interpretation.
Matthew 23:16-23.
Legalism denies your freedom to make your own decisions based on your personal experience with God.
Mark 2:23-28; 3:1-7.
The awesome destructive power of judgmental legalism in religion should not be underestimated. Legalistic religion undermines self esteem. The individual can never measure up to the absolute legal standards of "holy living" or "perfection" demanded by the legalists.
Jesus came to liberate people from hopeless bondage to legalistic judgmental abusive religion. "Since you are free in Christ, do not be bound again by a religious yoke of slavery" (Galatians 5:1). No matter how legalism is disguised, it is the enemy of Christ and of your self respect and peace in Christ. Grow in Christ, and you grow in self esteem and freedom.
The word "religion" originally means "to bind" or "to limit" and refers to ideas and beliefs that bind and control people. The New Testament idea of salvation, however, was expressed in Greek words that mean "liberation" and "freedom."
The Greek words for "save" and "savior" in the New Testament (sozo & soter) mean "to set free, liberate, rescue" or to be a "liberator" or "one who sets people free." In the time of Christ, the words were used for teachers, who liberated students from ignorance, doctors, who liberated people from sickness, or leaders, who liberated people from an enemy. The name "Jesus" is the Greek form of the Hebrew name "Joshua," which means "deliverer" or "liberator."
http://www.otkenyer.hu/truluck/legalism_as_idolatry.html
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