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Topic: The why aspect of a living sacrifice
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Keeper
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posted
This could get you into a lot of trouble.
If you were to quoate this scripture and have it sent off to the receipients a couple of days in advance. They may object to your means of calling them to liberty. They would most likely also refuse to let you cut off what you are offering to do in the name of Christian love.
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Keeper
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Galatians 5:13 has nothing to do with what you are talking about.
I'm sorry Eden, but are you testing us some way or another? You have done this too many times to think it was just a one time quirk.
What Paul is talking about is circumcision of the law being depended on instead of your faith in Jesus.
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Eden
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hello, oneinchrist, thanks for your kind comments. You also wrote: quote:
I try not to hyper-analyze discussion and/or complicate anything anymore than it is. You are a brother in the Lord to me. Sometimes I think you are too passive on some of the things that the bible has specific warnings on ...
But what did Paul say?
Galatians 5:13
For, brethren, you have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.
Because Jesus died 100% for our sins, we technically have perfect liberty to do what we want to do.
But to assume that therefore a bornagain Christian, having been freed from the penalty of his sins for his lifetime, will therefore "be a worse person now that he is saved than he was before he was saved", is EXTREMELY UNLIKELY.
But clearly, Paul also had to address this issue, saying plainly, "do not use your perfect liberty as an occasion for sin", or I would add, "for extra sin", since the person was already saved for "his regular sin".
Just because I have perfect liberty now that Christ has paid for my lifetime of sins, doesn't mean I'm now going to do "extra sin", and Paul also "reminded the believers of that" by saying,
Galatians 5:13
For, brethren, you have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.
By love serve one another, with the love of God shed abroad in our hearts, is THAT outcome not much more likely, Amen, for a saved person, than "more sin", LOL?
Eden
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oneinchrist
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Hi Eden,
I have been with you on this site for a while now. I believe that you trust in Jesus as Lord and Savior of your life. I also believe you when you say that you rely on the Holy Spirits guidance step by step day by day. I like to hear the enthusiasm in your testimonies.
I try not to hyper-analyze discussion and/or complicate anything anymore than it is. You are a brother in the Lord to me. Sometimes I think you are too passive on some of the things that the bible has specific warnings on, and if I "call you on it" I hope you know that I am looking out for you as a brother, not as a judge. Biblical warnings are to protect us, not to make our lives miserable. By the way, I dont think you yourself are half-hearted either.
With love in Christ, Daniel
Posts: 1389 | From: Wind Lake, WI | Registered: May 2007
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Eden
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hello, oneinchrist, first let me thank you again for all your kind and measured responses. You wrote to Eden quote:
Total surrender does not imply a test of the measure of human strength or ability to achieve something as much as it implies a test of our willingness to humble ourselves and be available for whatever God may desire of us. "Your will Lord, not my will be done".
Okay, "a test of our willingness to humble ourselves and be available to whatever God may desire of us".
Now, I know we can SAY to the Lord: "Lord, I'm available for you to use me", and of course the Lord hears that. But SAYING something is easy and as yet "we have done nothing", or "what have we done"?
Nor do I see my Christian life in terms of "Lord, I make myself avaiable for whatever You need", as if the Lord is "now going to send me to China" or "ask me to sell all my stuff and give to the poor and follow Me".
No, my Christian life consists of "following where the Holy Spirit leads me FROM MOMENT TO MOMENT".
Because God said in the Bible that the Holy Spirir, after accepting Jesus, would guide my steps, then by faith I accept that God is not lying about that, and I begin to TRUST that God IS IN FACT guiding my every step now.
So whatever thought now comes into my mind and whatever emtoion now comes into my heart, I trust that it now all comes from the Holy Spirit's moment-by-moment guidance, and I submit that THAT is truly what it means to "surrender to the guidance of the Holy Spirit" and "to make myself available for the Lord's use".
It's not some "mystery happening" that will "suddenly occur after weeks of waiting" or whatever, but it is simply "trusting in the guidance from moment to moment right now".
Lastly, you said quote:
Now my question for you, Eden, is, do you think that total surrender can be done with half-heartedness?
Why would I only trust in the guidance of the Holy Spirit half-heartedly? Either I believe in the guidance and trust that I'm am in fact being guided, or I don't (although there may be times where I stupidly trust my own ideas again, perhaps in a hairy situatioh or something...).
love, Eden
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Eden
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I'm sorry, Keeper, that analogy makes no sense. We all know that no one, under normal circumstances, can buy a car piece by piece (other than on credit of course, LOL), but we DO know that different people can sit behind the steering wheel or in the passenger seat, so there the analogy of "who's in the driver seat" and "who's in the passenger seat" works.
love, Eden of Chilmad
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Keeper
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Think of it this way Eden.
You talk about cars often. Let's say you want a car (salvation). You go to the dealer and tell them you don't have enough money (lack of spiritual knowledge), so you want to buy the car piece by piece. The dealer sends you back home (declined). You tell him to give you just enough to get you down the road (leave the body off, you will use a tarp when it rains) The salesman is sympathetic but he tells you it is all or nothing (body, soul, spirit and love). Then you say, You didn't mention money ! That's right, he says, it is your attitude that counts.
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oneinchrist
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Eden,
I think we are continuing to cross back and forth over the lines of distinction between what it means to BE a living sacrifice and what it means to BE sanctified.
For us to BE a "living sacrifice" we must entrust our lives (not just parts of us) into the hands of the Lord Jesus for service according to the will of God and we cannot be ashamed to be named as one of His disciples. This is a decision that can be made at a single point in time......"Yes Jesus, I will be your disciple and entrust my life into your hands for service according to Gods will".
For us to BE "sanctified" we must allow the word and the Holy Ghost to be our constant guide throughout life. This is a continuing process which is not usually narrowed down to a single point in time.
Now the question is..........what would be the importance in understanding the distinction between "being a living sacrifice" and "being sanctified?" First of all, it seems to me that you could not have one without the other. To have one without the other would be like telling God........."I will only allow you to use my life to a certain degree.......for ex: as long as things dont get too uncomfortable or troublesome.
Eden, I am thinking that your line of thinking is that........... because we are human beings it is impossible to commit to a total surrender. I contend that your confusion does not lie in the understanding of the "human beings capacity to achieve something" as much as it is in the understanding of the meaning of "total surrender". Total surrender does not imply a test of the measure of human strength or ability to achieve something as much as it implies a test of our willingness to humble ourselves and be available for whatever God may desire of us. "Your will Lord, not my will be done".
Now my question for you, Eden, is, do you think that total surrender can be done with half-heartedness?
With love in Christ, Daniel
Posts: 1389 | From: Wind Lake, WI | Registered: May 2007
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Eden
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okay, Coppper25, or anyone, you posted this Topic and, regarding your Topic title, "The why aspect of a living sacrifice", please tell me what you yourself have done to now "be a living sacrifice"?
I'm all for the exhortation, but what exactly have you done so far that you say you qualify as "a living sacrifice" already?
Thanks, Eden of Chilmad
"I love you 'just like that'"
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Keeper
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You say: All scripture has a personal application. (?) That is like saying: Hosea 8:12 I have written to him the great things of My law, but they were counted as a strange thing.
Copper 25 opened this speaking of individual sacrifices, sins, grace, works, etc.
Found in Him came up next agreeing and adding more to it.
You came along and agreed with both of them, same subject, individuals. You finished saying, Halfheartedness Yahew will reject.
Eden said: That is nonsense, God will use what He can in us while we learn more. But then he quoated scripture about the Church body, not the human body.
You came back and quoated more scripture about the Church body, not the human body.
I suggested that you had changed the subject and confused the issue.
You said: All scripture has a personal application. Now you have changed the subject again. All of the changes are taken out of context. You see, the church body is made up of human bodies who have become Christians. The human body sins, not the Church body. The human body is concerned with grace, not the church body.
When will I learn to keep my mouth shut?
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becauseHElives
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Keeper all scripture has a personal application....
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
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Keeper
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Rev 1:20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in My right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches; and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.
Then there are seven churches given judgement of which only two were found righteous.
Rev 3:13 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.
Rev 3:14 And unto the angel of the church of Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true Witness the beginning of the creation of God;
Rev 3:15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot; I would thou wert cold or hot.
REV 3:16 SO THEN BECAUSE THOU ART LUKEWARM, AND NEITHER COLD NOR HOT, I WILL SPUE THEE OUT OF MY MOUTH.
REV 3;17 BECAUSE THOU SAYEST, 'I AM RICH, AND INCREASED WITH GOODS, AND HAVE NEED OF NOTHING' AND KNOWEST NOT THAT THOU ART WRETCHED, AND MISERABLE, AND POOR, AND BLIND, AND NAKED;
Rev 3:22 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.
Now, while I am at it, I will explain the scripture from Eden:
In Chapter 12 Paul gives an explanation or comparison of how the human body needs all it's parts to be functional, likewise so does the church. Spiritual gifts are given to each member as appointed by God for works to be done.
Eden used 1 Cor 12:14-16 saying it was speaking of human body parts. It was speaking of human body parts but only as a comparison to the body parts of a church.
1 Cor 12: 14 For the body is not one member, but many.
1 Cor 12:15 If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not the body?
1 Cor 12:16 And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?
He gives several more examples and then:
1 Cor 12:28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
In Chapter 12 Paul goes into much detail on this subject but without doubt he is speaking of the church, the body of Christ. He is not suggesting that you can dedicate a part of your human body one part at a time as you gain knowledge.
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becauseHElives
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quote:
Daniel ... So all in all, Eden, I would say that I agree that we all grow at different paces, but I would agree with BecauseHelives that we should caution our hearts against a "half-hearted" devotion to Jesus.
![[thumbsup2]](graemlins/thumbsup2.gif) Daniel
quote:
Keeper .... BecauseHeLives, your scripture is also about the CHURCH, not the human body.
I beg to differ with you Keeper.....
Revelation 3:16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
There is not one verse in the whole of scripture that does not apply to body, soul and spirit in one way are another!
2 Timothy 3:16-17
"All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: that the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto good works."
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
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oneinchrist
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Hi Eden,
Please bear with me on this one. I hope that I am not hearing from you that half-heartedness is Ok(justifiable) in the sight of God considering that His Son is more than worthy of our full devotion. Eden, I think your point about our need to learn of the Lord to become more effective witnesses is reasoneable. While we continue to be open to learn from God He puts us through a pruning process whereby our character is refined to His liking.
When I ponder the declaration that Jesus makes, that unless we deny ourselves, take up our cross and follow Him we cannot be His disciple I see very little room for half-heartedness.........please let me explain........to deny ourselves means to put kingdom priorites(Gods will) first and foremost ABOVE ALL OTHER priorites in our life..........to take up our cross means that we must be willing to partake in the sufferings/reproach that will come upon us for Jesus' namesake...........and to follow Him means that we must be willing to go wherever He will lead us NO MATTER WHAT THE COST could be.
So all in all, Eden, I would say that I agree that we all grow at different paces, but I would agree with BecauseHelives that we should caution our hearts against a "half-hearted" devotion to Jesus.
With love in Christ, Daniel
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Keeper
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Are you guys talking about the Church Body or the Human Body ? BecauseHeLives, your scripture is also about the CHURCH, not the human body.
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Keeper
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I'm sorry Eden but the scriptures that you quoate, 1 Cor 12:14-16 are not about the human body it is about the CHURCH BODY.
Furthermore, when you go to Christ asking for your salvation, you DO turn over everything to Him, not part by part. Yes, you do what you can with the knowledge you learn but it is still a total dedication to Him.
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becauseHElives
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Eden ....the halfhearted believer will be rejected....
if you can show me one scripture verse that say a individual can give anything but all I will retract my position...
Revelation 3:16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
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Eden
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becauseHElives wrote quote:
as we ponder that verse ...
Romans 12:1) I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that you present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God, which is your reasonable service.
Yahweh will not except anything except a whole offering.... we can not offer just the parts we want to sacrifice.... every part of who and what we are must be laid on the alter for Yahweh to consume, nothing can be withheld.
halfheartedness Yahweh will reject....
That is nonsense. God will use what He can use in us while we learn more about Him.
If we never used the knowledge that we learned from elementary school to high school and college until we graduated, we'd be in a "hallelujah mess".
Just as student's in school use in every day life what they have learned so far in school, so also God uses the part of our body that we have been able to surrender to God for His uses.
IT IS NOT AN EITHER_OR SITUATION as some would propose. It's a gradual giving of the parts that we want to give to God.
For example, we may give God our eyes by no longer watching bloody movies or no longer reading wicked books about murders and things...
Or we may give God our ears and we only love and listen to Christian music now...
Because:
1 Corinthians 12
14 For the body is not one member, but many.
15 If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?
16 And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?
Likewise it is nonsense to say that "God does not use ANYTHING of ours until we LAY ALL ON THE ALTAR". Are you kidding? If God had to wait until THAT happened, He's NEVER GET ANYTHING DONE.
So, to repeat what you said, becauseHElives quote:
as we ponder that verse ...
Romans 12:1) I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that you present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God, which is your reasonable service.
[b]Yahweh will not except anything except a whole offering.... we can not offer just the parts we want to sacrifice.... every part of who and what we are must be laid on the altar for Yahweh to consume, nothing can be withheld.
halfheartedness Yahweh will reject....
That is nonsense. God will use whatever He can use in us after we receive the Holy Spirit in kindergarten.
love, Eden of Chilmad whose forefathers Adam and Eve WERE in Eden
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becauseHElives
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Amen Copper25 and Found in Him ...what you both said was ....
as we ponder that verse ...
Romans 12:1) I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that you present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God, which is your reasonable service.
Yahweh will not except anything except a whole offering.... we can not offer just the parts we want to sacrifice.... every part of who and what we are must be laid on the alter for Yahweh to consume, nothing can be withheld.
halfheartedness Yahweh will reject....
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
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Found in Him
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Thanks Copper,
Your words are very much like what I just read...
This is the way that Paul lived. He said, “I die daily’ He had no reference whatever to sin in this statement. The context Is very plain. It shows clearly here that the reference is to physical death. He is willing to hazard his life to death daily.
The preceding verse says, “We stand in jeopardy every hour”. The following verse says, “After the manner of man I fought with wild beasts at Ephesus”. It would require the greatest stretch of the imagination and the greatest liberty in exegesis to apply this to death to sin. It does not at all refer to sin here but to his willingness to sacrifice his life that others might live. Someone has said, “I once saw the trail of a bleeding hare on the snow”. How that describes the life of the apostle Paul. Wherever he went he left his blood. He never saved himself, but he literally sacrificed himself over and over again. He says, “in deaths oft”.
Ted Hegre
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~To Him That is able to keep you from falling and to present you before His glorious presence without fault and with great joy...to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.~ Jude 24
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Copper25
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Romans 12:1) I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that you present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God, which is your reasonable service.
Why?
God before time, at the beginning of time stood to declare words that have come to pass, that shall not return unto Him empty or void. With the lips of God, the earth, the heavens, the land, the sky, and the seas, and all life came to be. Had it not been for our loving Creator, we would not be here today, none of us would be here at all. He is the source of creation, of all that came to be. He is glorious and arrayed with Holiness. He is flawless and perfect in every way. His beauty and His pureness exceeds and excels all things in heaven and on Earth. The magnitude of His knowledge is unsearchable, as deep as the sea, as vast as the skies. His mercy is exceedingly great despite the grave erroneous ways of mankind, and of our ways
Psalm 103:10) He hath not dealt with us after our sins; nor rewarded us according to our iniquities.
Even though we all deserve hell and to spend all eternity there burning away, melting like wax figurines, God (Ephesians 2:5) “Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ , (by grace ye are saved;)” and (Romans 6:23) “the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.” God did not say, everyone who wants to be saved, pay such and such amount, why because what our Lord did for us on that cross giving His life for us, while we were in sins, while we were yet sinners, worthy of damnation, is priceless and holds more value than the finest rubies or the twinkling and glitter of the greatest diamonds. All riches imported, gathered in one collective mass accumulate to nothing when compared to the sacrifice in which of Lord gave.
Romans 5:7) For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.
Romans 5:8) But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
We have all fallen tremendously short of the glory of God. Before a perfectly righteous and just God, even one sin is a grave and deadly thing. There is not one of us who can honestly say, I deserve eternal life.
Romans 3:23) For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God
Now ponder the magnitude, because we have all broken every law that God has made and has spoken as it is written (James 2:10) “For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.” And despite our huge short coming, we have been brought into a relationship with Christ. Again, this precious gift was offered to us freely and without cost. Why? God’s love wherewith He loved us was so great, that He was willing to crush His only begotten son Jesus Christ for us. Isaiah 53:10) “But the LORD was pleased To crush Him”. If God were to put a price on the death of His son, we would all not be able to buy it; salvation, nor for that matter is something we can earn with any amount of works.
Ephesians 2:
8) For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9) Not of works, lest any man should boast.
It is priceless, with such immense and richness in value, He … died … for…us. Liberated now through Christ Jesus, shall we live unto ourselves perpetually and constantly thinking, me, me, me, me? Or shall we live rather continually to please the Lord our God, Jesus Christ, who died for us, resurrected, and is seated in glory at the right hand of God the Father? This is the why aspect, a drop of the immense reasons why we should live for God, to present our bodies, our being, unto Him in a manner holy and acceptable. He deserves every fiber of our being.
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Isaiah 40:6) The voice said, Cry. And he said, What shall I cry? All flesh is grass, and all the goodliness thereof is as the flower of the field
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