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Author
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Topic: Why doubt OSAS part II
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Found in Him
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posted
Amen Copper,
God made provisions for fallen mankind to be "In Christ" before the foundation of the world! He chose to show mercy and give grace to man through His Son Jesus Christ to whosoever will come.. before man was even made! What an Incredible God we serve!
Revelation 13:8
the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world
2nd Timothy 1:9
"Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us "in Christ" Jesus before the world began,"
1st Peter 1:18-20
"Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;
But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,"
Ephesians 1:3-7
"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
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~To Him That is able to keep you from falling and to present you before His glorious presence without fault and with great joy...to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.~ Jude 24
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Copper25
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Look at Ephesians 1
What I love about this chapter is that it is so centered around Christ Notice just how many times Paul emphasizes on being IN Christ. Now meditate on it and think about it. It is amazing just how much Christ is the center of life.
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Isaiah 40:6) The voice said, Cry. And he said, What shall I cry? All flesh is grass, and all the goodliness thereof is as the flower of the field
Posts: 262 | From: Rochester, NY | Registered: Nov 2008
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Found in Him
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Hi Copper!
In Christ? AMEN!
On the "separation day" stated below MANY will be confronted with the truth that Christ died for a relationship with them that could have changed their heart and made them His very own...they pranced about the sheep pen-- But never were sheep!
Matthew 25:31-46
The Sheep and the Goats
31"When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
34"Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.'
37"Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?'
40"The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.'
41"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.'
44"They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?'
45"He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.'
46"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."
"In Christ" AMEN Copper! It's the ONLY way!
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~To Him That is able to keep you from falling and to present you before His glorious presence without fault and with great joy...to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.~ Jude 24
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Copper25
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quote:
Originally posted by Found in Him:
Hi Copper! You wrote...Yes we must endure unto the end, but do any of you think that we can do it of our on strength or of our own power?
Jesus said:
“Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me. 5 “I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing. 6 “If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned. 7 “If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. 8 “My Father is glorified by this, that you bear much fruit, and so prove to be My disciples. 9 “Just as the Father has loved Me, I have also loved you; abide in My love. 10 “If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love.
Found in Him, you are right, the question all boils down to whether a person is really in Christ or not!
2 Peter 1:10) Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall
Do you see what I see?
1 John 5:13) These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
I am going to keep pressing this point, over and over again, unless one tries themself by the scriptures, in the light of the word of God, they are setting themselves up to be deceived!
EXAMPLES
You say, well my heart, in my heart I trust and believe, I trust in what my heart says! But the bible says
Jeremiah 17:9) The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
You say that you believe a preacher who told you that you were saved. Well the bible says
Jeremiah 17:5) Thus saith the LORD; Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the LORD.
In a world were preachers teach in many cases, that by saying one prayer OUT OF THE SENCIRNESS OF YOU HEART, will get you saved, that is COMPLETELY UNBIBLICAL. In a world where there are MANY false prophets claim "Lord, Lord[/B ", but are not really His, but rather wolves in sheep's clothing
Matthew 7:15) Beware of false prophets, [B]which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
I don't care how much a person, a preacher or anyone comes to you, whether it be with a smile or a fist full of scripture, if they EVER SAY, that you were saved because of a prayer that you prayed once time in your life, they lie, they lie, they lie! Again "Cursed be the man that trusteth in man"
Now then you might say, well in my mind, in my mind, I am certain, but do you really want to trust you mind, your way of thinking?
Proverbs 14:12) There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.
Now in a world where many people are claiming to be Christian. I would never recommend that you start comparing yourself to those people around you. Why? Do you really want to risk your soul, your eternal life on how another human acts? Especially considering that there are so many "carnally minded Christians", which is not biblical. Why?
Romans 8:6) For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
Any carnally minded person, who lives in complete and utter carnality, is not a Christian. Why? Because they don't have eternal life and Christ said about His sheep
John 10:27) My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
John 10:28) And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
"give" is present tense. The Lord did not say, you will be my sheep but I have not given you eternal life yet, you are going to have to wait till you escape the carnal mind. Why?
2 Corinthians 5:17) Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
Notice the word "is", present tense. I say unto you that any carnally minded person claiming to be Christian is not Christian because the new nature of the new creature is NOT one of carnality, but rather spirituality. This brings me back to the point I made before. Why would you EVER want to stake and risk you eternal life, comparing yourself to other people!?
Hebrews 4:12) For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
This is what we prove ourselves by, not man, not our own hearts, not some socialistic standard, but by the word of God! Again
2 Peter 1:10) Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall
With love in Christ
Daniel
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Isaiah 40:6) The voice said, Cry. And he said, What shall I cry? All flesh is grass, and all the goodliness thereof is as the flower of the field
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oneinchrist
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Hi Eden,
Yes, thank you for correcting me . I was a little sloppy in a hurry when I posted about the different types of men from the parable of the sower. I was trying to emphasize one thing, but ended up overlooking another.
With love in Christ, Daniel
Posts: 1389 | From: Wind Lake, WI | Registered: May 2007
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Found in Him
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Hi Copper! You wrote...Yes we must endure unto the end, but do any of you think that we can do it of our on strength or of our own power?
Jesus said:
“Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me. 5 “I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing. 6 “If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned. 7 “If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. 8 “My Father is glorified by this, that you bear much fruit, and so prove to be My disciples. 9 “Just as the Father has loved Me, I have also loved you; abide in My love. 10 “If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love.
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~To Him That is able to keep you from falling and to present you before His glorious presence without fault and with great joy...to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.~ Jude 24
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oneinchrist
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GOD IS GOOD! Praise His Holy Name!
With love in Christ, Daniel
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oneinchrist
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Hi Copper 25,
No, I do not think that we can "endure" on our own strength. I believe that faith towards God not only includes appropriating what God gives us, but also involves our depending on Gods strength which comes to us by the power of the Holy Ghost.
With love in Christ, Daniel
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oneinchrist
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Hi Found in Him,
I do agree with Copper 25 that God does "elect" a few(as scripture states), but I agree with you, Found in Him. that the basis for that election is two-fold..........
based on Gods love and His desire to save us
AND
our response to that love
With love in Christ, Daniel
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Copper25
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Yes we must endure unto the end, but do any of you think that we can do it of our on strength or of our own power?
Psalm 91:2) I will say of the LORD, He is my refuge and my fortress: my God; in him will I trust.
Isaiah 25:4) For thou hast been a strength to the poor, a strength to the needy in his distress, a refuge from the storm, a shadow from the heat, when the blast of the terrible ones is as a storm against the wall.
O how apart from God we would crumble, apart from Christ we are desolate and dead!
When we are persecuted, going through hard times, who do you think strengthens us? Do we feed ourselves?
This I will say, Jonah 2:9) .... Salvation is of the LORD.
FoundinHim, you are right about one thing for sure, until death do we keep our faith and have responsibility in our calling.
Luke 9:24) For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it.
Until death, be faithful unto the Lord. We need to watch in a corrupt world that has unspeakablle evils in it. Watch and be alert for the time to come.
2 Corinthians 6:7) By the word of truth, by the power of God, by the armour of righteousness on the right hand and on the left,
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Isaiah 40:6) The voice said, Cry. And he said, What shall I cry? All flesh is grass, and all the goodliness thereof is as the flower of the field
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Glory belongs to Him
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The Once Saves Always Saved is nothing but a lie from the pits.
The race is only given to those who endures to the end. Not to those who are in and out; professing but never processing.
Those who beleive in the theory once saved always saved and continue to sin are in the category with the great falling away. (2 Thessa. 2:3} They are being deceived by the lies of men and not living by the truth of "The Word of God."
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If you ever get so hungry for God that you are in pursuit of Him, He will do things for you that He won't do for anybody else.
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Found in Him
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quote:
Originally posted by Copper25:
NOW I AM GOING TO SAY THIS UP FRONT BEFORE YOU READ THIS POST, I just plainly followed the logic of the scripture. There must be some false doctrine concerning the way people teach the concept of OSAS or a.k.a. (security in salvation) , but I believe that a process of santification must happen. Why?
Copper,
I also believe that there is "security" in salvation and in a Faithful believers walk with The Lord. The words "IF" and "Continue" seem to precede this security all throughout scripture. God is Faithful... unfortunately mankind has PROVEN the opposite of ourselves. Does that make God unfaithful or contradict scripture? Absolutely NOT. We have proven OURSELVES unfaithful since creation began.
John 8:31
So Jesus was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, "If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine"
quote:
Forget the term OSAS, and let me say it bluntly and plain, NO MAN OR THING CAN PLUCK A TRUE SHEEP FROM THE HAND OF THE LORD!
I also believe that NO ONE can pluck a sheep from the hand of The Lord BUT that sheep itself can determine to about face and walk away...This is a hard thing Copper. Hard to swallow and a fearful thing to asses. It's not doubting God's faithfulness, authority or power to save. I believe it's admitting Man's unwilling, unbelieving and unfaithful heart period.
Many Disciples Desert Jesus
60 On hearing it, many of his disciples said, "This is a hard teaching. Who can accept it?"
61 Aware that his disciples were grumbling about this, Jesus said to them, "Does this offend you? 62 What if you see the Son of Man ascend to where he was before! 63The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and they are life. 64 Yet there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him. 65 He went on to say, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him."
66 From this time many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him.
67 "You do not want to leave too, do you?" Jesus asked the Twelve.
As far as "election" goes, Jesus Christ died for the sins of the entire world and salvation is for "whosoever will"
God chose to adopt sons and daughters through His Son Before the world began knowing that we would surly NEED salvation. God is no dummy! To say that God elects just a few contradicts scripture because God is not willing that ANY should perish.
God IS FOREVER Faithful... The child of God has the RESPONSIBILITY to Remain, Continue, Strive to enter in, Seek, Watch, Pray and Follow
Salvation is a gift, we cannot earn it. We have a Choice to be Faithful to The Lord of Salvation.
God is Forever Faithful.
I think the question remains:
Are We?
Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life" (Revelation 2:10)
The Lord has promised this crown to those who love Him. How do we show our love for God? "For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome" (1 John 5:3). Therefore, to obtain this crown, we must keep His commandments or obey Him, being faithful To Him until death. As long as we live, may we ever press on toward that crown of Life.
"So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants, by loving the LORD your God, by obeying His voice, and by holding fast to Him; for this is your life and the length of your days, that you may live in the land which the LORD swore to your fathers, to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, to give them.”
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~To Him That is able to keep you from falling and to present you before His glorious presence without fault and with great joy...to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.~ Jude 24
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Copper25
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quote:
Originally posted by Eden:
Hi, Copper25, greetings in the Lord. You wrote quote:
If we persevere unto the end we shall be saved.
Yes this is true, but it is not of our strength that we even can persevere unto the end, it is of God and only of God that ANYONE CAN EVER endure, it is only of God that anyone can escape the carnal mind, it is only of God one can become a new creature.
Yes, I have been thinking about that too...if we are all equally sinners, then any salvation and sanctification and glorification can only be from God and we really have nothing to do with it.
For God has chosen whom He has chosen of the "all are equally sinners", and therefore none outside can enter unless they are chosen.
Now, the question is, "Do some people think that they are chosen but are in fact NOT chosen"? And if so, "what would cause them to think they ARE chosen"?
love, Eden the merchant of Chilmad
Now, 1 John 5:13) These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
2 Peter 1:10) Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall
Now we have established already that salvation is of the Lord and by His working upon us and in us, now these two scripture start us off to prove ourselves in the faith, to see if we really are in the faith. "that ye may know that ye have eternal life" the apostle John says and "These things have I written unto you"
As for those who never knew that they were not God's elect, they FAILED to TRY THEMSELVES by The WORD TO GOD to PROVE THEMSELVES. And for that matter, they press against the truth and shun it when ever they here it. Remember, by nature the unconverted man, unless moved and convicted by the Spirit, will just be stony and insensitive to the word
1 Corinthians 2:14) "But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him"
Listen closely to what I have to say, it is Only by trying ourselves by the word of God that we can have full assurance and full confidence that we are his elect, that we are in the faith. Why?
Hebrews 4:12) For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
The word can and will when applied correctly, cut through any and all falsehood. Why, because in our hearts, the word will cause conviction by the moving of the Spirit. And certainly, because the bible never contradicts itself, the right dividing with proper explanation will prove or disprove that someone is in the faith and abides in Christ.
First things first, can a person remain absolute unchanged after conversion, even though they CLAIM Christ as Lord? No, simply no. Why?
Romans 8:6) For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
If someone is living in constant carnality, constantly being evil but confessing "Lord, Lord", will they go to heaven to be with the Lord, no simply no. Why?
(NAS) Hebrews 12:14)Pursue peace with all men, and the sanctification without which no one will see the Lord.
Do you see the divine working of God, the process of sanctification in your life? Are you seeing this sort of Change, because all in Christ will. Why?
ROMANS 6
1) What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2) God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
If you have a TRUE relationship with God, there is no way sin should be getting worse, not with the regenerating working of the Holy Spirit taking place in us.
Titus 3
5) Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost ;
6) Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour
Point 2, they show absolutely no evidence of being transformed into a new creature.
2 Corinthians 5:17) Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
Galatians 5:24) And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
The new creature thrives in the Spirit and is regenerated by the Spirit, not the flesh.
Now what is this "new creature" like, what are its characteristics?
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Matthew 5:4) Blessed are they that mourn: for they shall be comforted.
1 John 1:9) If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
When we sin, it is not a light thing, not a no biggy sort of attitude. Why?
Because by the new nature, comma the creature has the Love of God in Him, he will get convicted in His heart and the sin that is not confessed will eat away at him like a hammer hitting a nail into a peice of wood, feeling that pain, that emotional burden until he confesses his sin to God. This is one of the greatest evidences of conversion because the fleshy carnal person will look at sin as with a more relaxed attitude, while the child of God will break down, in tears even, when he sins. Why?
Ezekiel 36:26) A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
The heart of flesh unlike the heart of stone is sensitive to Stimuli, whether it be because of the word, or because of sin, one becomes more sensitive to conviction, where as for the heart of stone, someone who has it will sin and sin and sin and sin, and can never have any remorse over it at all, they are not sensitive to sin, their conscience is and their sense of morality toward God and his Law or commands is completely defiled.
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1 John 1:6) If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth
Again, this goes back to the verse that Jesus said in Matthew 7:18) A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
When we look at our lives, as a whole, can we see Christ in our lives or are we living like the world? Does our behavior that manifest in our speech, in our actions, in our way of thinking, show a more Christ like resemblance? This meaning that it is pleasing to God. But that is not it, when you look at the way you walk in life, is it any different than a unbeliever, and I mean not the fact that you go to church every Sunday because many have that attitude and are still damned; but rather each day in your life, how is God in it? Are you TRULY seeking God each day, or are you letting the world choke out the word, and as a result are consistently pushing and thrusting God away and the truth of His word? I tell you truly, that one can read the word every day of their lives, and yet each time, because of their worldly lust, because they love the world, the word is being choked out of them, resulting in the way of unfruitfulness. This brings us to our next point
________
1 John 2:5) Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
If you look at your life, and I mean examine your way of living, are you obsessed with, and dazzled with the things of this world, rather than the treasure of a golden relationship with God? Which do you esteem more, the knowledge in the word of God, or the things of this world?
Daniel 12:4) But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.
Do you seek and value the knowledge and vanity of the world, or rather the things of God? You can know all the physics you want, all the mathematics, all the science you want and it won't do a thing for your soul!
People who love the world treat God as a five minute stop, a hi and by relationship. They are like Jerusalem, who went a whoring after the lust of their hearts, the gods of this world. Do you have a strong relationship with God or the world? Are you being overcome by the world or God? Who is dominating you and dictating your life? It is ether the fallen world which is barreling toward damnation or the God of life, who is the fountain of living waters, as stated in Jeremiah 17:13.
__________
Now, do you keep his commandments?
Revelation 22:14) Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
John 14:15) If ye love me, keep my commandments.
Now, do I mean keep every little speck, every jot in perfection? No, simply no. Why?
1 John 1:10) If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
I'll call it as it is, we are all still sinners, and I am not in any way trying to give or suggest that a leniency or toleration should be in one's life for sin, but I simple state that while we are in these corruptible fleshy bodies we are not perfect, no not at all.
Now, let us look at
PSALM 1:2) But his delight is in the law of the LORD; and in his law doth he meditate day and night.
Job 23:12) Neither have I gone back from the commandment of his lips; I have esteemed the words of his mouth more than my necessary food.
Do you esteem the commandments and God's word, and earnestly desire to keep and follow them?
Example, someone says to you, let us go and steal this TV, we can get $10,000 for it. Then you say no. Why, because you know and want to uphold the commandment of God, “Thou shalt not steal”. In a corrupt world that has not reverence for submitting to the Law, the commands of God, are you keeping your eyes on God, to obey him, to be submissive to His commands? Another example, the bible says, "Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth" (in Ephesians 4:29). Now after you see that, are you going to submit to it by the grace of God, are you going to ask God to help you keep this if is posing a difficulty to you?
This writer had that happen to him. In a restaurant, I cursed, and I felt so bad. I then looked for the scripture Psalm 141:3) "Set a watch, O LORD, before my mouth; keep the door of my lips." and I've prayed a petition very similar to that one ever since and God has literally keep a watch over my mouth. I had problems in my thoughts, I asked God to keep a watching over my thoughts. The point I am trying to make is, are you trying to be submissive to God, and not only so, and another important thing, are you leaning to God to help you, or because of pride, the attitude that I can, I can, I can, if I just try harder, is your way of thinking even when you have access to the throne of God through Christ Jesus. The more dependent we become one God to help us with our infirmities, our weakness in our character, our faults, which we do have, our erroneous ways, then more can we prosper and accelerate in it, living more of a victorious life through and in Christ.
I hope this gives some clarification on the subject
With Love in Christ,
Daniel
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Isaiah 40:6) The voice said, Cry. And he said, What shall I cry? All flesh is grass, and all the goodliness thereof is as the flower of the field
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Eden
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Hi, Copper25, greetings in the Lord. You wrote quote:
If we persevere unto the end we shall be saved.
Yes this is true, but it is not of our strength that we even can persevere unto the end, it is of God and only of God that ANYONE CAN EVER endure, it is only of God that anyone can escape the carnal mind, it is only of God one can become a new creature.
Yes, I have been thinking about that too...if we are all equally sinners, then any salvation and sanctification and glorification can only be from God and we really have nothing to do with it.
For God has chosen whom He has chosen of the "all are equally sinners", and therefore none outside can enter unless they are chosen.
Now, the question is, "Do some people think that they are chosen but are in fact NOT chosen"? And if so, "what would cause them to think they ARE chosen"?
love, Eden the merchant of Chilmad
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Eden
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hello, oneinchrist. Please let me to comment on parts of a post of yours above. You wrote quote:
Hi Copper 25, In the parable of the seed and the sower ... it seems that scripture does show there to be all these types of men.........
--Men who believe for a while, but later fall away (offended by trials)
--Men who never really believed in the first place(with us, but not of us)
and
--Men who believe and produce fruit
oneinchrist, for the people seated in the electronic pews, let me add here that there are actually THREE kinds of people who end up NOT believing in Jesus in the long term, whereas you only mentioned TWO kinds. I posted the parable of the sower to help us along:
Mark 4
3 Listen: Behold, a sower went out to sow:
4 And it came to pass, as he sowed, some {seed} fell by the wayside, and the birds of the air came and devoured it up.
5 And some {seed} fell on stony ground, where it had not much earth; and immediately it sprang up, because it had no depth of earth:
6 And when the sun was up, it was scorched; and because it had no root, it withered away.
7 And some {seed} fell among thorns, and the thorns grew up, and choked it, and it yielded no fruit.
8 But other {seed} fell on good ground, and did yield fruit that sprang up and increased; and brought forth, some 30 and some 60 and some 100.
oneinchrist, you further wrote quote:
When we try and talk about who was saved and who wasnt saved that is when I think we begin to confuse matters. God is the only one who can rightly judge the hearts of men.
On the other hand, if we can "know them by their fruits" then we can know who they are too?
And lastly, you wrote quote:
Our main concern should be that we humble ourselves before God and open our hearts up to Him and His will and then we can be assured, by His Word of promise, that He will guide and protect us.
Absolutely. I love that verse in Micah 6:8:
Micah 6:8
He has shown you, O man, what is good and what the LORD requires of you, namely, to do justly and to love mercy and to walk humbly with your God?
love, damlihC fo tnahcrem eht nedE
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Copper25
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NOW I AM GOING TO SAY THIS UP FRONT BEFORE YOU READ THIS POST, I just plainly followed the logic of the scripture. There must be some false doctrine concerning the way people teach the concept of OSAS or a.k.a. (security in salvation) , but I believe that a process of santification must happen. Why?
(ASV) Hebrews 12:14) Follow after peace with all men, and the sanctification without which no man shall see the Lord
Forget the term OSAS, and let me say it bluntly and plain, NO MAN OR THING CAN PLUCK A TRUE SHEEP FROM THE HAND OF THE LORD!
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FoundinHim said
OSAS teaches that men who are under grace cannot lose their eternal life if they return to sin, when the Scriptures clearly teach otherwise, saying
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FoundinHim, I know that you don't agree with that thing tought in this quote above ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
Returning to sin, how can this be true if God corrects His children to keep them on the path?
Hebrews 12
5) And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:
6) For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
7) If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
8) But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.
It is those who err in teaching period that teach that a person can live in the carnality of life and still be saved that are false teachers!
For me, I beleive that in order to have a good theology on the bible one must harmonize with the doctrine of the bible without braking it. Why, John 10:35 states that "the scripture cannot be broken"
Jesus said in John 10:27 that "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me"
So his sheep follow Him and are known by Him.
Now watch, are all people claiming to be Christians today really Christian? No, not a chance in the world. Why?
Matthew 7:13-14 was reffering to all those, the total mass of people who claimed to be His diciples, who claim to know him
Matthew 7:13) Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
Matthew 7:14) Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
Now how do we know that this is true, that Jesus is not merely talking about ALL those, and I mean every person who just acknowledges His existence verses those that deny His being in existence? Look at the context.
Matthew 7
21) Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22) Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23) And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
So thus we conclude that the majority of those claiming to be His disciples are not really His diciples at all, nor have even been, and they were never known by him. Thus this concludes that they were not His sheep. Why?
John 10:27) My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me
Now notice this, out of all those claiming to be His disciples, ONLY the one's that were not, nor have ever been known of Christ hear the words "depart from me, ye that work iniquity."
Now as for those whom He knows,
John 6:44) No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
They were all drawn to Jesus by the Father.
Now, can any of them be let go or dropped out? No, simply no. Why?
John 6:37) All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
Thus this concludes just by applying and using deductive reasoning, and using a bit of logic, that all those TRULY given to Jesus shall be given eternal life and indeed shall be with Him forever. Why?
John 10:29) My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
If one sheep falls out of the Lord's hands, then that would mean that God is not greater then all.
And as for leniency on sin, forget it, saying that a Christian can live in full carnality all the days of His life and be a Christian, that is false doctrine or teaching. Why?
Matthew 7:17) Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but the corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
Matthew 7:18) A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
Will a Christian sin, yes. But a Christian, and I mean a TRUE Christian in the totality of His life, will not exhibit the fallen man, or yea rather, an unconverted man. His life will not be the same as an unbeliever’s life, but rather, you can see God and the process of sanctification, the Divine working of God in his life.
As for that bad tree, that fake Christian, the one who really is not a Christian at all and just claims to be, He can try to act holy, piest, and put on a front, and this is talking about at optimal condition, and they can never be the true salt of the earth! Why?
Luke 14:34) Salt is good: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be seasoned?
Unlike a TRUE Christian, who mourns over sin, who is meek, who is poor in spirit, who hungers and thirst for rightousness, The imitator won't have these.
And furthermore, the unltimate test
Matthew 13:21) Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.
Matthew 5
11) Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.
12) Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.
The TRUE sheep who is known of Christ, who is give to Him by the Father, who cannot get plucked out of His hand, will be the one who stands in the midst of severe trails and persecution. Are you ready to stand?
The sheep says, "I will die for my Lord" and will stand and endure till death: While the goat, that fake, who was a banwagoner, like at a football game, saying oops my team is losing, time to choose the other team and switch sides, will utterly to save his own skin, his own life, will deny his Lord, the same Lord whom he never knew, nor had fellowship with, but more importantly, Jesus did not know him. Thus this concludes that all that fall way during persecution were not known of the Lord. Why?
Isaiah 43:2) When thou passest through the waters, I will be with thee; and through the rivers, they shall not overflow thee: when thou walkest through the fire, thou shalt not be burned; neither shall the flame kindle upon thee.
The Lord promised to be there with us to uphold us during our hard, dark, and trialistic hours. But as for that phony, he has nothing.
I hope this better explained my position and my theology on the subject better. I hope you benefit in someway from this.
With love in Christ,
Daniel
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Isaiah 40:6) The voice said, Cry. And he said, What shall I cry? All flesh is grass, and all the goodliness thereof is as the flower of the field
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Found in Him
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http://www.behindthebadge.net/osas/osas33.html
Sinning under grace still results in death
OSAS teaches that men who are under grace cannot lose their eternal life if they return to sin, when the Scriptures clearly teach otherwise, saying:
“For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?” (Romans 6:14-16)
OSAS relegates this death (while under grace) to physical/temporal death. However, everyone dies in such a way, whether they sin or not, so such an interpretation is faulty. Temporal/physical death is not what Paul has in view when he speaks of the death brought on by sin.
Paul showed the consequences of sin in his own pre-Christian life in Romans 7:9-11, saying:
“For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death. For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.” (Romans 7:9-11)
If the wages of sin is physical death, then how can Paul say that he “died” (past tense) when he sinned? Are we to believe that when he sinned he previously died physically? Or does this mean that he was on a speedy course to temporal death (in which case, one would have to explain [away] the many people who live as rank sinners and yet live to an old age). Obviously, Paul is not referring to the wages of sin as a temporary physical death, as the OSAS advocates would have it.
James 1:12-16 shows that the one who endures temptation will be given a crown of life, but if one yields to the temptation and sins, that will be death to him.
“Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him. Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death. Do not err, my beloved brethren.” (James 1:12-16)
James 5:19-20 shows that the Christians to whom James was writing could potentially err from the truth and their soul could suffer death from sin.
“Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him; Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.” (James 5:19-20)
Hebrews 10:25-29
The OSAS preachers say that a man who was once made holy by the blood of Christ will always be justified in the sight of God even if he returns to sin. However, Hebrews 10:25-29 is a stark warning to the Hebrew Christians that a man who sins willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth will cease to be saved, even though such an one “was” previously made holy by the blood of Christ.
“Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching. For if we sin willfully, after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversairies. He that despised Moses’ law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace.” (Hebrews 10:25-29)
Some say that the one who was here sanctified by the blood is “the Son of God,” but the Bible only speaks of Christ sanctifying others by his blood, not himself ( Hebrews 13:12). Even the idea seems backwards, as one brother wrote, “To claim that Christ needed to be made holy by His own blood is like the erroneous Jewish teaching that the gold of the temple was more sacred than the temple (Matt. 23:16). The temple made the gold sacred, and not the other way around. Likewise, Christ’s blood is ‘holy’ and makes ‘holy’ (sanctifies) because it is His blood. The holy and innocent Lamb makes His blood holy, and not the other way around
Names can be blotted out of the Book of Life
Revelation 3:5 shows that the Christians needed to overcome to prevent their names from being blotted out of the book of life.
“He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.” (Revelation 3:5)
The obvious implication is that a Christian who does not overcome will have his name blotted out of the book of life.
“And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.” (Revelation 22:19)
“And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.” (Exodus 32:33)
“Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous.” (Psalms 69:28)
Romans 11:20-23
Romans 11:20-23 shows that the Gentile Christians who were standing by faith could afterwards be cut off from God’s people even as the unbelieving Jews were.
“Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.” (Romans 11:20-23)
Contextually, this is a reference to salvation (Romans 11:14-15), and therefore those who are now standing by faith can again become lost.
Proof that Christians can become condemned
1 Corinthians 11:31-34 shows that God disciplines us so that we should not be condemned with the world. If that were not a genuine possibility, the reasoning would be vain. V.34 shows that Paul believed that condemnation was indeed possible.
“For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged. But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world. Wherefore, my brethren, when ye come together to eat, tarry one for another. And if any man hunger, let him eat at home; that ye come not together unto condemnation. And the rest will I set in order when I come.” (1Corinthians 11:31-34)
Along those same lines, Hebrews 12:9-14 shows that we must submit to God’s correction to “live” (v.9) and that his correction results in holiness (v.10), and that we should pursue holiness, because without it, no man shall see the Lord (v.14)
“If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not? But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons. Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected [us], and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live? For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness. Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby. Wherefore lift up the hands which hang down, and the feeble knees; And make straight paths for your feet, lest that which is lame be turned out of the way; but let it rather be healed. Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord: Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled;” (Hebrews 12:8-15)
Hebrews 12:15 shows that Christians can “fail of the grace of God” which denotes the losing of something previously attained.
James 5:8-9 also shows that brothers can be condemned at Christ’s coming:
“Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh. Grudge not one against another, brethren, lest ye be condemned: behold, the judge standeth before the door.” (James 5:8-9)
Ephesians 2:8-9
This is one of the most quoted passages in all of mainstream preaching. Unfortuanately, many of the preachers who quote it do so without presenting it in its proper context. In order to understand this text in its contextual meaning, let’s begin at the beginning of the second chapter of Ephesians and discover the theme leading up to verses 8 and 9. As we do so, honestly ask yourself whether the author is discussing a person getting saved from their old life of sin, or whether he is discussing a person remaining saved while continuing to sin after conversion.
Epesians 2:1-5 reads as follows:
“And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)” (Ephesians 2:1-5)
The focus of this text is on how God saved us even though we were in such a wretched condition prior to conversion. He says that “in times past” we conducted ourselves according to the lusts of the flesh, and “were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.” The point he is making is that in the past we were all in the same ungodly, wrath deserving condition as everyone else. Therefore, since we were in the same condition as all other men, it was not our own merits that qualified us to be saved. Rather, as the author points out, it is God’s grace that saved us. This is a reference to initial conversion, which the author continues to discuss in Ephesians 2:6, saying:
“And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:” (Ephesians 2:6)
This is the transition that occurs at conversion. We go from not being raised up to being raised up; from being excluded from Christ to being positioned in Christ by God. Yet, nowhere in Scripture do we find that once being in Christ indicates that we will continue to remain in Christ thereafter (see John 15:1-10 for proof to the contrary). Yet, no matter the future abiding or falling away of the individual, all who have ever been converted have experienced a place in Christ. This is what Paul refers to here.
Ephesians 2:7 then goes on to say:
“in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus.” (Ephesians 2:7 NIV)
Here, the focus is not on us forever receiving the grace of God no matter what we may or may not do after initial conversion, but the focus is rather on God, namely on how God will forever receive glory for his kindness in mercifully forgiving men who were guilty, and bringing them into such a marvelous status.
The Expositor’s Greek New Testament relays the meaning of this verse nicely, saying:
God’s purpose, therefore, is that in the eternal future . . . the grace of his ways with those once dead in sins should be declared and understood in all the grandeur of its exceeding riches.[1]
The meaning of the last phrase in Ephesians 2:7 which says, “expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus,” is to show that such merciful conversions were only made possible through the redemptive work accomplished in Christ.
So far, nothing in this chapter has supported the Once Saved Always Saved doctrine. The theme of this chapter thus far has consistently focused on how God’s grace provided for initial conversions from our past, sinful, wrath deserving lives to a justified position in Christ.
In Ephesians 2:7 we saw that God will forever receive glory for his kindness in redeeming men who were once dead in their sins. Paul continues to make his case for why God will receive the glory for such conversions, saying:
“For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.” (Ephesians 2:8-9)
He begins this passage with the word, “For,” showing a continuation of the train of thought from the previous text. The flow of his discourse is this: God will be the receipient of glory for the conversions of men, because when they were dead in sins they were not capable of saving themselves.
This is the second time in this chapter that the author employs the phrase, “by grace are ye saved.” The first time was in Ephesians 2:5, where he writes:
“Even we we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ (by grace are ye saved).” (Ephesians 2:5)
Just as this text refers to the effectiveness of God’s grace in converting men from death to life, that is, initial conversion, so likewise the use of the phrase, “by grace are ye saved,” in Ephesians 2:8 is applied in the same manner. The context does not refer to an individual remaining saved if they return to sin, but rather how one becomes saved when they are initially converted. The remainder of Ephesians 2 proves this as well: Paul speaks of being “created” in Christ (Ephesians 2:10), which occurs at conversion (2 Corinthians 5:17), and the focus upon conversion in Ephesians 2:11-13 is manifestly obvious, reading as follows:
“Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.” (Ephesians 2:11-13)
In Ephesians 2, Paul is discussing initial conversion. There is nothing in the context that indicates that a person who was once delivered from their “past” sinful conduct (Ephesians 2:3) will remain saved if they afterwards return to that conduct.
http://www.behindthebadge.net/osas/osas59.html
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~To Him That is able to keep you from falling and to present you before His glorious presence without fault and with great joy...to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.~ Jude 24
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Copper25
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quote:
Originally posted by becauseHElives:
[QB] Finally Heb. 6:4-6 passage says “If you can fall away, you can never get saved again.”
Furthermore, the Lord said to His Twelve Apostles minus Judas:
This very night you will all fall away on account of me,
for it is written: “I will strike the shepherd, and the
sheep of the flock will be scattered.” (Mat 26:31)
So the Lord’s sheep can “fall away,” according to Jesus. It is not
hypothetical! It does happen. Also, there is no “If” in Heb. 6:6. That is
an error in certain versions of the Bible.
Furthermore, the Greek shows
that the people referred to had already fallen away and couldn’t come
back to God! Apparently, they committed eternal sin, unlike others who
also fell away but did return to the Lord, such as the Apostles.
Again you err
This very night you will all fall away on account of me,
for it is written: “I will strike the shepherd, and the
sheep of the flock will be scattered.” (Mat 26:31)
speaks about that perticular moment before Jesus was to get crucified so that the scripture may be fullfilled
again, to say that the Lord can lose his sheep would be contradicting the very words that proceeded out of Christ mouth!
John 10
27) My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28) And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29) My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
Again, the scripture never ever, ever, ever, ever contradicts itself and it is impossible for Christ to lie considering that He is God. To say that any of His true sheep can be lost would again be contradicting scripture, not only scripture, but the very words spoken by Christ! I know what a speak is hard to swallow but to say that salvation is anything less than the working of God is erroneous. Why,
Philippians 1:6) Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ
Whenever we say that man has to, man has to do this in order to be saved, we make it of works, and not by Christ and what he did for us on the cross, further more, Can we do anything, and I mean anything without God's Spirit in us and His grace? That is why we can endure, not because of ourselves, but by the power of Almighty God. Focus on the working of God and not on the man wanting acceptance by works mentality. It is all about God, not of us.
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Isaiah 40:6) The voice said, Cry. And he said, What shall I cry? All flesh is grass, and all the goodliness thereof is as the flower of the field
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Copper25
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Luke 15:24)For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.
Luke 15:32) It was meet that we should make merry, and be glad: for this thy brother was dead, and is alive again; and was lost, and is found.
becauseHElives said "Remember, Jesus taught one can get saved again in Luke 15:24 and Luke 15:32."
You err in your interpertation. Why
Hebrews 6:4) For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost
Hebrews 6:5) And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
Hebrews 6:6) If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
if what you said about Luke 15:24, and Luke 15:32 were true, the bible would contradict itself with Hebrews 6 and it would mean that one could be born again twice, when the scripture only teaches that one is born again only Once. Why,
Ezekiel 36:26) A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
Now notice something, can you give me one biblical example of a man reversing the working of God? Where a mortal, a messily weak human such as we just said to God, stop because I command you, Stop because I say so?
Furthermore, we are new creatures in Christ, now am I saying that we won't sin, no that is erroneous, but to say that a child of God will slip into a state of condemnation, is contradicting the scripture.
Romans 8:1) There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Furthermore, Do you think that God does not love his children, that he would let His children play and dwell in the broad way? To say this is to say, literally that God does not correct his children! That God would have a nonchalant attitude about His children playing in the evil of the world! Do you know what you are saying? You are saying a person can become lost again! Do you know how much that contradicts the scripture? Can we get dull, yes, can we backslide, yes, but can we become Lost again, no!
Do you Think that God handles His children like a lousy quarter-back with a football? That He says oops, I dropped you, whoops, let me pick you up again? No, No, No! God is strict with us, Like I said, God would brake us, tear our pride down before He ever let's us become like this fallen world we were apart of!
My brother, carefully consider ALL the scripture just to make sure that your are not contradicting in such big ways. We all make mistakes but that, that someone can be saved twice, which means that they could become lost again, that is just plain heresy.
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Isaiah 40:6) The voice said, Cry. And he said, What shall I cry? All flesh is grass, and all the goodliness thereof is as the flower of the field
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becauseHElives
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Finally Heb. 6:4-6 passage says “If you can fall away, you can never get saved again.”
The truth is: we know people do “fall away” since Jesus clearly said such occurs
in Lk. 8:13.
Furthermore, the Lord said to His Twelve Apostles minus Judas:
This very night you will all fall away on account of me,
for it is written: “I will strike the shepherd, and the
sheep of the flock will be scattered.” (Mat 26:31)
So the Lord’s sheep can “fall away,” according to Jesus. It is not
hypothetical! It does happen. Also, there is no “If” in Heb. 6:6. That is
an error in certain versions of the Bible.
Furthermore, the Greek shows
that the people referred to had already fallen away and couldn’t come
back to God! Apparently, they committed eternal sin, unlike others who
also fell away but did return to the Lord, such as the Apostles.
Remember, Jesus taught one can get saved again in Luke 15:24 and Luke 15:32.
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
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becauseHElives
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posted
Remember Jesus was not joking
when he taught the disciples that they would have to endure to the
end for their salvation sake (Mt. 10:22).
And “we have come to share
in Christ if we hold firmly till the end the confidence we had at first”(Heb. 3:14).
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
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becauseHElives
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posted
Luke 8
13They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
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Copper25
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by becauseHElives:
Copper25 , I thought more highly of you than your trickery....
why start another thread except to create confusion.....separating the scriptures proving my point....
divide and conquer is a tactic of Satan not the child of Yahweh.....
there are none so blind as those that refuse to see...
quote:
About Demas, if he was truly one of Jesus’ sheep and he fell away, that would conclude that the Lord let a sheep get plucked out of is hand, which the Father gave Him and that would therefore show that God is not greater then all.
I refer you back to the original thread.....
http://thechristianbbs.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=006422#000023
I was not trying to be in a state of trickery, I had already stated that the last post I posted on that thread was going to be the Last post that I would post in that thread and I hate to be a lier!
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Isaiah 40:6) The voice said, Cry. And he said, What shall I cry? All flesh is grass, and all the goodliness thereof is as the flower of the field
Posts: 262 | From: Rochester, NY | Registered: Nov 2008
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Copper25
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posted
You know OneinChrist, something interesting, I was reading Luke 14 last night and look!
17) And sent his servant at supper time to say to them that were bidden, Come; for all things are now ready.
18) And they all with one consent began to make excuse. The first said unto him, I have bought a piece of ground, and I must needs go and see it: I pray thee have me excused.
19) And another said, I have bought five yoke of oxen, and I go to prove them: I pray thee have me excused.
20) And another said, I have married a wife, and therefore I cannot come.
24) For I say unto you, that none of those men which were bidden shall taste of my supper.
Now put it together with this verse
Matthew 22:14) For many are called, but few are chosen.
How many people are in the Christian faith, meaning that they are claiming to be really part of it and suit the condition of the men in Luke 14:18-20? Truth of the matter is that many will not take part in the great supper because they are focused on temporal, they fail this test when they prove themselves by the scripture, by the word of God.
1 John 2:15) Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
Have you ever just pondered on just how futile the temperol things are, to put trust in the seeable thing?
Romans 8:24) For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
Many have heard of Christ, but how many will follow, many are bidden, called, but how many are not tainted and defiled by the world?
Matthew 22
11) And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment:
12) And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless.
13) Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness, there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
When I say resist God, one can resist God by not proclaiming His truth, by patronizing people and I probably said this before, patronization is a deadly thing.
Jude 1:4) For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.
A preacher or evangelist resists God when they teach not at all on sin. Why,
Matthew 5
29) And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee : for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
30) And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
One thing is clear, and I mean extremely clear, sin is not and is never something that should be taken lightly on. Jesus did not beat around the bush and say something like; well you know sin is bad, and it can hurt, you should try to stop but if you keep living in it that's ok because He loves you. No, No, No! "if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off" and "if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee": Why, "it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell."
People think in many cases that sin is a joke; they have no remorsefulness, not regret, not repentance or sensitivity to sin and think that it is fine! When a preacher does not teach or preach on sin, they in a way resist God. Why,
(John 16:8) And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
It is one of the Holy Spirit's primary operations, and when one does not teach on it, or makes light of it, how are they helping and not rather hindering that ministry?
Luke 7:47) Wherefore I say unto thee, Her sins, which are many, are forgiven; for she loved much: but to whom little is forgiven, the same loveth little.
Do you see that you do not have to be directly saying in words, I resist God, but rather yea through ones actions one can resist God? When mankind resists to hear the truth, they resist God. When someone puts anything on the throne, on the center of their life stage, other than the Lord Jesus, and do not make God number one in their life , they resist God. Don't you see my people, my fellow Christians, IT IS NOT YOU SAYING GOD EXIST, BUT RATHER WHAT YOU CONVEY OR EXIBIT IN YOUR ACTIONS,THAT WILL SHOW WHETHER YOU DENY HIM OR BELIEVE IN HIM! If one runs off to every evil under the and claims to be Christian, they are denying God, showing disbeleif through their actions. Look at Isreal in the wilderness on that 40 year jouney. They showed disbeleif, not so much by words, by saying their is no God, but rather showed their unbelief manifested in their idolism, turning from God, and doing that which is right in their own eyes!
Judges 21:25) In those days there was no king in Israel: every man did that which was right in his own eyes.
Proverbs 14:12) There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.
I by the way apologize for that one part in all caps, but it is SO IMPORTANT to emphasize that concept, because it is something many can't hear!
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Isaiah 40:6) The voice said, Cry. And he said, What shall I cry? All flesh is grass, and all the goodliness thereof is as the flower of the field
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becauseHElives
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posted
Copper25 , I thought more highly of you than your trickery....
why start another thread except to create confusion.....separating the scriptures proving my point....
divide and conquer is a tactic of Satan not the child of Yahweh.....
there are none so blind as those that refuse to see...
quote:
About Demas, if he was truly one of Jesus’ sheep and he fell away, that would conclude that the Lord let a sheep get plucked out of is hand, which the Father gave Him and that would therefore show that God is not greater then all.
I refer you back to the original thread.....
http://thechristianbbs.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=006422#000023
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
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oneinchrist
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posted
Hi again Copper 25,
Yes, I agree that there is going to be definite change in the life of a true believer.
Dont get me wrong. Though I know that God is the perfect judge of the heart, I still believe that there are subtle indicators that a person is in the faith.
As far as the "elect" are concerned. First of all, who are the "elect?" They are the few that are chosen from the many that are called. This would be an indication that there was not a favorable response from all who were called. God elects those who come to Him on His terms(repentance towards Him, faith(continuing) towards His Son Jesus). Now, most of the "elect" come to God under the hearing of the gospel message, but God has(as the bible indicates) and still can choose particular individuals as appointed "leaders".........the bible is full of them.
Ok, now that we know who the elect are, the next question is........can they resist God? As for a called leader, for example, I dont think that the question is so much could they resist God, but would they want to resist God? Due to the nature in which God reveals Himself to a called leader it would be virtually insane to resist God. God makes Himself known and He makes Himself perfectly clear to them.
Now to the average Joe "elect" who has come to Christ under the hearing of the gospel, he also can resist God but the question is also.....would he want to? He is sure to receive Gods chastisement, which of course we know is better than not receiving it at all.
I would like to clarify something........I do believe that the word "elect" signifies a people of God that God has foreknowledge of as a people who will allow God to be their God and will continue to allow God to be their God; therefore, it would not make sense(it would be contradictory) to say that some of the "elect" fall away. Yes, the "elect" would be of those who bear fruit to God.
Now what would be difficult for us to determine/distinguish is the difference between someone who will believe for a while, and then fall away as opposed to the one who will remain steadfast in the faith(elect)
I do not believe that it is important for us to know that as much as it is important for us to encourage one another to keep focused on the Lord Jesus and Kingdom priorities. I think you do a good job of that copper 25, Keep it up!
With love in Christ, Daniel
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Copper25
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posted
OneinChrist you are right in that sense in the things you say, but you do not have to judge a person's heart to see that they are not a Christian.
Matthew 7
16) Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
17) Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18) A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
Now follow me on this one, if one claims to be Christian which many and I mean many do, isn't there suppose to be evidence of God's working in their life?
"Ye shall know them by their fruits." does not only apply to false prophets but false Christians or to say people that aren't really Christian.
Example
If I were to say I am a Christian and my life has no and I mean no evidence of change, I act exactly like the people of non-belief, am I a Christian? No, simply no.
Can a Cadillac be a Ferrari? Can a bad tree bear Good fruit? If you look over the totality of someone’s life and saw no difference, no hint of change, other than the fact that they now go to church(which despite popular belief) does not make you a Christian.
"Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?"
Can a person who is consistently and constantly carnal in their behavior but says "Jesus Christ is my Lord" be a Christian? No simply no. Truth be told it sounds like they are completely unregenerate by the Holy Spirit. Can the new creature in Christ not be changed and live in a God hating lifestyle? No, simply no. This is what has been missing and is not emphasized on in many of the churches today, the doctrine of regeneration and the malady, or the sick and wretched condition of man, that apart from the regenerating work of God, one cannot be a new creature in Christ.
This I will say, apart from God how can we who were wicked and evil beast, before we were converted ever come to conversion in the first place?
The problem is that PEOPLE try to take away the power of God in salvation, trying to make it a work of man, rather than a work of God.
Example
If we persevere unto the end we shall be saved.
Yes this is true, but it is not of our strength that we even can persevere unto the end, it is of God and only of God that ANYONE CAN EVER endure, it is only of God that anyone can escape the carnal mind, it is only of God one can become a new creature.
Do you see, when we put our focus one God as the reason we can do these things, then we will start to realize that salvation is COMPLETELY of the Lord and not of us.
Saying "If we persevere unto the end we shall be saved." makes it sound exactly like a salvation of works and not by the power of God, by works and not resting in the finished work of Christ.
A change must happen but let me ask you this and I want you to think about. Can a man ever and I mean ever stop God from completing or accomplishing that which He wills?
Ezekiel 36:26) A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh , and I will give you an heart of flesh.
Do you hear an I may saith the Lord or I might? Furthermore, if a man can just walk away after being converted with a new heart and a new Spirit; That shows that the will of man is stronger than the will of God! It would show that God wouldn't have His subjects, his creation under His absolute sovereignty!
People aren't willing to face the fact that the TRUE working of God in a person is unstoppable. Why, because it is of God that this working happened.
Isaiah 55:11) So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.
IT IS OF GOD that a person be changed and transformed to the image of His son Jesus Christ. IT IS OF GOD that one is ever even begun to change, and I certainly do not think that the will of man is going to override the will of God. Why, because God controls absolutely everything; and will you say that the will of man is greater than the will of God? That God from His mouth can start a work, but a man just by saying no from his mouth can end it? Nay, I tell you that God will break his children and humble them all before he lets one escape from his hand. Why, because what God does for His glory is what God does for His glory, meaning that no man can stop it.
Thus we conclude that no man can resist God and win IF they are TRULY elected. Why because God will break that person until they are humble, God will sculpt the clay!
Look at King Nebuchadnezzar, God took every thing from him, but what was the result before he came back to power because of God. He lost his pride, he was humbled in a big way and glorified the Lord of Host, our Great God, and submitted himself to Him from that point on. Don't you see God is willing to break is elect, no matter how pride they are so that they will acknowledge Him as Lord, the Lord of host and of glory. He WILL break His elect to humble them!
Psalm 118:18) The LORD hath chastened me sore: but he hath not given me over unto death.
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Isaiah 40:6) The voice said, Cry. And he said, What shall I cry? All flesh is grass, and all the goodliness thereof is as the flower of the field
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oneinchrist
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Hi Copper 25,
In the parable of the seed and the sower Jesus describes to us a person who does come to believe , but only believes for a while till persecution arises and he becomes offended by the word.
So now it seems that scripture does show there to be all these types of men.........
--Men who believe for a while, but later fall away (offended by trials)
--Men who never really believed in the first place(with us, but not of us)
and
--Men who believe and produce fruit
When we try and talk about who was saved and who wasnt saved that is when I think we begin to confuse matters. God is the only one who can rightly judge the hearts of men. Our main concern should be that we humble ourselves before God and open our hearts up to Him and His will and then we can be assured, by His Word of promise, that He will guide and protect us.
with love in Christ, Daniel
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Copper25
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About Demas, if he was truly one of Jesus’ sheep and he fell away, that would conclude that the Lord let a sheep get plucked out of is hand, which the Father gave Him and that would therefore show that God is not greater then all.
John 10
27) My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28) And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29) My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
As for Judas
Look at what verse becauseHElives gave in other thread
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"Jhn 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled."
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Beside Judas all others given to Christ will not be Lost!
Why would you think just because someone has the spiritual gift of preching, that they are truly Jesus’ sheep?
Out of the many people claiming to preaching the gospel, how many are really His, really one of Jesus' sheep and not some false prophet which is erring?
Jude 1:4) For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.
Matthew 24:5)For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
I warn you, don't think that someone is of Christ just because they have a spiritual gift because many of which may be using them for the wrong reason!
Matthew 24:24) For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
Matthew 7:22) Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Remember when Mary took the ointment of spikenard.
3) Then took Mary a pound of ointment of spikenard, very costly, and anointed the feet of Jesus, and wiped his feet with her hair: and the house was filled with the odour of the ointment.
4) Then saith one of his disciples, Judas Iscariot, Simon's son, which should betray him,
5) Why was not this ointment sold for three hundred pence, and given to the poor?
6) This he said, not that he cared for the poor; but because he was a thief, and had the bag, and bare what was put therein.
Look at the fruit of Judas, not what spiritual gifts he had!
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Isaiah 40:6) The voice said, Cry. And he said, What shall I cry? All flesh is grass, and all the goodliness thereof is as the flower of the field
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