|
Author
|
Topic: Pre-trib rapture question?
|
Betty Louise
Advanced Member
Member # 7175
|
posted
Daniel
There are only a couple of people I try to avoid here, and you are not one of them. It is not because I don't love them, but because they talk over my head. I am too old to argue with people anymore and if I don't understand a post I tend to read only.
betty
--------------------
Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
Posts: 5051 | From: Houston, Texas | Registered: May 2008
| IP: Logged | 
|
|
oneinchrist
Advanced Member
Member # 6532
|
posted
Good evening Eden,
I was coming back to erase the statement of mine(that you just responded to) that I thought may have come across as a little too prideful. I know it is not wrong to want to be appreciated, but I should not be giving anyone the impression that it is owed to me. Thank you Eden for giving me the benefit of the doubt.
With love in Christ, Daniel
Posts: 1389 | From: Wind Lake, WI | Registered: May 2007
| IP: Logged |
|
|
Eden
unregistered
|
posted
oneinchrist wrote quote:
I still hope that people appreciate that I do try to make a concerted effort to understand the scriptures and see how they compare with each other.
dear oneinchrist, to me you are one of the most diligently searching Christian and most polite Christian on this board. Thanks for always remaining so civil.
love, Eden the merchant of Chilmad who was not in the garden of Eden
IP: Logged |
|
|
oneinchrist
Advanced Member
Member # 6532
|
posted
Betty,
I love you too. It appears we are on the same page as to the urgency of responding to the call of salvation and that matters much more than how we view the chronological sequence of events in end-times. I still hope that people appreciate that I do try to make a concerted effort to understand the scriptures and see how they compare with each other.
With love in Christ, Daniel
Posts: 1389 | From: Wind Lake, WI | Registered: May 2007
| IP: Logged |
|
|
Betty Louise
Advanced Member
Member # 7175
|
posted
What is the difference between the Rapture and the Second Coming?
difference Rapture Second Coming
Question: "What is the difference between the Rapture and the Second Coming?"
Answer: The Rapture and the Second Coming of Christ are often confused. Sometimes it is difficult to determine whether a Scripture is referring to the Rapture or the Second Coming. However, in studying end-times Bible prophecy, it is very important to differentiate between the two.
The Rapture is when Jesus Christ returns to remove the church (all believers in Christ) from the earth. The Rapture is described in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 and 1 Corinthians 15:50-54. Believers who have died will have their bodies resurrected, and along with believers who are still living will meet the Lord in the air. This will all occur in a moment, in a twinkling of an eye. The Second Coming is when Jesus returns to defeat the antichrist, destroy evil, and establish His Millennial Kingdom. The Second Coming is described in Revelation 19:11-16.
The important differences between the Rapture and Second Coming are as follows:
(1) At the Rapture, believers meet the Lord in the air (1 Thessalonians 4:17). At the Second Coming, believers return with the Lord to the earth (Revelation 19:14).
(2) The Second Coming occurs after the great and terrible Tribulation (Revelation chapters 6-19). The Rapture occurs before the Tribulation (1 Thessalonians 5:9; Revelation 3:10).
(3) The Rapture is the removal of believers from the earth as an act of deliverance (1 Thessalonians 4:13-17; 5:9). The Second Coming includes the removal of unbelievers as an act of judgment (Matthew 24:40-41).
(4) The Rapture will be “secret” and instant (1 Corinthians 15:50-54). The Second Coming will be visible to all (Revelation 1:7; Matthew 24:29-30).
(5) The Second Coming of Christ will not occur until after certain other end-times events take place (2 Thessalonians 2:4; Matthew 24:15-30; Revelation chapters 6-18). The Rapture is imminent; it could take place at any moment (Titus 2:13; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18; 1 Corinthians 15:50-54).
Why is it important to keep the Rapture and the Second Coming distinct?
(1) If the Rapture and the Second Coming are the same event, believers will have to go through the Tribulation (1 Thessalonians 5:9; Revelation 3:10).
(2) If the Rapture and the Second Coming are the same event, the return of Christ is not imminent…there are many things which must occur before He can return (Matthew 24:4-30).
(3) In describing the Tribulation period, Revelation chapters 6-19 nowhere mentions the church. During the Tribulation—also called “the time of Jacob’s trouble” (Jeremiah 30:7)—God will again turn His primary attention to Israel (Romans 11:17-31).
The Rapture and Second Coming are similar but separate events. Both involve Jesus returning. Both are end-times events. However, it is crucially important to recognize the differences. In summary, the Rapture is the return of Christ to the clouds to remove all believers from the earth before the time of God’s wrath. The Second Coming is the return of Christ to the earth to bring the Tribulation to an end and to defeat the antichrist and his evil world empire.
Daniel it is important to stress that we should be saved before the rapture. I honestly believe that people who know the truth about the Gospel will be led into deception by the anti-Christ.
I believe because they knew the truth but choice to reject Christ, God will allow their hearts to be hardened. So yes, we should encourage those to accept Christ while there is still time.
I love you Daniel. I look forward to seeing you one day in Heaven. ![[hug]](graemlins/hug.gif)
betty
--------------------
Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
Posts: 5051 | From: Houston, Texas | Registered: May 2008
| IP: Logged |
|
|
oneinchrist
Advanced Member
Member # 6532
|
posted
Betty,
If I didnt feel that the pre-trib belief had dangerous implications, I would not really bother to keep questioning it. How many people out there in the world are going to think that they are still going to have another chance to repent and turn to God after the "catching away?". If the day of the Lord is the same as the day of the rapture, which is the same as the day of judgement, which is the same as the day of wrath, and there is no more time for repentance afterwards, then the teaching that there will be more time to repent(call this the great trib. or whatever you desire) is a lie of the devil to get people to procrastinate and put God off for another day.
In a nutshell, from what I have seen, the pre-trib theory
--reverses the sequence of events as layed out in Matthew 24
--determines that the revealing of the man of sin and the day of the Lord are at the same time
--interprets Revelation 4 to be a rapture event
.........so I hope no one wonders why I would question it.
Yes Betty I agree that we do not need to allow this to be a source of contention between us...........but what am I supposed to do if I believe that more and more people could be mislead by counting on being able to change their minds and turn to God after Jesus comes??
With love in Christ, Daniel
Posts: 1389 | From: Wind Lake, WI | Registered: May 2007
| IP: Logged |
|
|
Betty Louise
Advanced Member
Member # 7175
|
posted
Dainel,
Thank you, but I just did a 6 week study on the whole book of Revelations and I am comfortable in my belief that the rapture is pre-trib.
This said, this belief is not a salvation issue.
So we can be brothers and sisters in Christ an love each other and not worry about this.
betty
--------------------
Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
Posts: 5051 | From: Houston, Texas | Registered: May 2008
| IP: Logged |
|
|
oneinchrist
Advanced Member
Member # 6532
|
posted
Hi Betty,
Thank you for being clear on your view. It appears that you have to interpret the "revealing of the man of sin" and the "rapture" to happen simeltaneous otherwise you might have to re-consider your position. Paul does state that the man of sin is revealed first........but we are not given any indication of the span of time this could cover leading up to the day of the Lord. It could be a long time or it could be a short time before His coming.
What if we go to Revelation to make a comparison check on this teaching of Paul? It appears that Revelation Chapter 13 describes this beast who speaks great and blasphemous things..........and then afterwards in Chapter 14 comes the reaping the earths harvest by Him who sat on a cloud.
It appears to me that 2 Thessalonians lines up with Revelation.
With love in Christ, Daniel
Posts: 1389 | From: Wind Lake, WI | Registered: May 2007
| IP: Logged |
|
|
Betty Louise
Advanced Member
Member # 7175
|
posted
Yes I believe that Jesus can come any moment. I do not believe the anti-Christ will be revealed until the rapture. I believe the rapture itself will put the world in a panic and the anti-Christ will come on the scene as the world's great hope.
I apologize for not making myself clear.
betty
--------------------
Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
Posts: 5051 | From: Houston, Texas | Registered: May 2008
| IP: Logged |
|
|
oneinchrist
Advanced Member
Member # 6532
|
posted
Hi Betty,
So then you do not believe that Jesus can come at any moment now? Is that right? Because the anti-christ has not been revealed and is still being held back?
With love in Christ, Daniel
Posts: 1389 | From: Wind Lake, WI | Registered: May 2007
| IP: Logged |
|
|
Betty Louise
Advanced Member
Member # 7175
|
posted
how exactly does the church currently "tightly hold the demons back"
-----------
First of all the Holy Spirit lives in every Christian. When the Church leaves the Holy Spirit will still work in the world but it will be like in the Old Testament when only Prophets were indwelled with the Holy Spirit.
Second Christians are at this point keeping evil from over taking the world because of the out cry Christians would have. When the Church goes and her ability to vote with her, then evil will have a free reign. There will be those who are saved but by the time they are a group of tribulation Christians the anti-Christ will put in place laws that outlaw anything Christian.
betty
--------------------
Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
Posts: 5051 | From: Houston, Texas | Registered: May 2008
| IP: Logged |
|
|
Eden
unregistered
|
posted
Here you go, Betty Louise:
2 Thessalonians 2:7
For the mystery of iniquity does already work: only he who now lets will let, until he be taken out of the way.
Strong's Concordance
2 Thessalonians 2:7 For 1063 the mystery 3466 of iniquity 458 does 1754 0 already 2235 work 1754 : only 3440 he who now 737 lets 2722 [will let], until 2193 he be taken 1096 out of 1537 the way 3319.
Please notice that the part "will let" does not actually exist in the Greek but was added by the KJV translators to "help it make sense" (according to what they thought it should mean).
But of course the words "lets 2722" ARE in the Greek as in the phrase: "only 3440 he who now 737 lets 2722 [will let], until 2193 he be taken 1096 out of 1537 the way 3319.
Okay, let's look at Strong's Concordance to see what the Greek word for "lets 2722" is:
lets 2722
2722. katecho, from 2596 and 2192; to hold down (fast), in various applications (literally or figuratively):--have, hold (fast), keep (in memory), let, X make toward, possess, retain, seize on, stay, take, withhold.
Let's see what other English words "2722" was translated into in the KJV:
2722 is also translated as "hold fast 2722 our confidence" (Heb.3:6) and "being dead, wherein we were held 2722", and basically seems to mean "to hold tightly onto".
In any case, Betty Louise, I tend to think that God is the One who is "tightly holding onto the demons", restraining them, and NOT THE CHURCH.
But, okay, let's say that the "church" is the one which is "tightly holding back the demons" during the church age, and how exactly does the church currently "tightly hold the demons back", Betty Louise?
Through prayer? Through our mere presence on earth because we are "nicer people", or how do you conceive that we the church is "tightly holding onto" and thus are "preventing"?
2 Thessalonians 2:7
For the mystery of iniquity does already work: only he who now lets 2722 [will let], until he be taken out of the way.
Thank you, Eden, the merchant of Chilmad
("Ezekiel 27:23: Haran, and Canneh, and Eden, the merchants of Sheba, Asshur and Chilmad, were your merchants.")
IP: Logged |
|
|
Betty Louise
Advanced Member
Member # 7175
|
posted
Daniel,
There is also good ground to believe that what is holding back the anti-Christ is the Church. Not a a certain Church , but people who are saved. Once the rapture takes place the anti-Christ will be free to do his thing.
I know there is a verse that says the the son of petition is being held back by a restrainer but I can't find the verse at the moment.
betty
--------------------
Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
Posts: 5051 | From: Houston, Texas | Registered: May 2008
| IP: Logged |
|
|
oneinchrist
Advanced Member
Member # 6532
|
posted
Pre-trib "rapture" believers state that they believe in the "at any time now" return of Jesus...................soooo
how do pre-tribists reconcile that belief with Thessalonians teaching that says that the day of the Lord will not come unless there is a falling away first, and the man of sin, the son of perdition is revealed?
With love in Christ, Daniel
Posts: 1389 | From: Wind Lake, WI | Registered: May 2007
| IP: Logged |
|
|
|
Printer-friendly view of this topic
