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Topic: Why doubt OSAS?
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oneinchrist
Advanced Member
Member # 6532
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posted
Hi BecauseHElives,
In reference to the terms "elect" and "disciple":
It is my thought that when the word "elect" is used in scripture that it is referencing those whom God knows ahead of time that He will save, but on the other hand..........a "disciple" can fall away. So on that premise, I believe that Judas could have been considered a "disciple", but not one of the "elect".
With love in Christ, Daniel
Posts: 1389 | From: Wind Lake, WI | Registered: May 2007
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Eden
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posted
yahsway wrote quote:
You know, Yeshua told Peter that Satan wanted to sift him as wheat but that He(Yeshua) would pray for him.
Also, look what the scripture says about satan entering Judas. It says "THEN" entered satan into Judas. It did not say satan was already entered into him, but i believe that Judas had a heart issue and he opened the door so to speak and THEN satan entered in.
Scripture says that Satan walks about like a roaring lion seeking whom he may devour.
And i submit to you that Satan isnt walking about in all the unholy places seeking those he already has. He is after the Believers. Theres a war for souls going on.
Good stuff, yahsway. ![[thumbsup2]](graemlins/thumbsup2.gif)
love, Eden
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yahsway
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Great Teaching becauseHeLives! I sure hope everyone takes the time to read what you posted concerning Judas.
You know, Yeshua told Peter that Satan wanted to sift him as wheat but that He(Yeshua) would pray for him.
Also, look what the scripture says about satan entering Judas. It says "THEN" entered satan into Judas. It did not say satan was already entered into him, but i believe that Judas had a heart issue and he opened the door so to speak and THEN satan entered in.
Scripture says that Satan walks about like a roaring lion seeking whom he may devour.
And i submit to you that Satan isnt walking about in all the unholy places seeking those he already has. He is after the Believers. Theres a war for souls going on.
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becauseHElives
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Member # 87
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posted
Mark 3:29 - But whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; he is guilty of an eternal sin.
The Apostle Judas did not commit that sin....
He could have been forgiven....
Phl 3:18 (For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, [that they are] the enemies of the cross of Christ:
do yourselves a favor read all of chapter 3 of Philippians...
The Apostle Judas Iscariot: A problem for eternal security (perseverance of the saints) proponents!
Eternal security proponents face many difficult passages of Scripture, that is, difficult for them because they clearly contradict their treasured and beloved doctrine. The contradictions from Scripture concerning their teaching exist either by specific example or simple declaration pertaining to this subject.
Regarding examples that contradict eternal security, perhaps the Apostle Judas Iscariot is most difficult for them. It seems that the facts revolving around this apostle must be distorted, twisted, read into and/or overlooked to maintain their erroneous view of the believer's security. Even illogical statements and Scripturally unsubstantiated statements surface to reconcile events in his life to eternal security!
It is obvious that the Apostle Judas Iscariot went to Hell after betraying Jesus and committing suicide: "Woe to that man who betrays the Son of Man! It would be better for him if he had not been born" (Mark 14:21). Because of this fact, the eternal security proponents are left with no alternative but to dogmatically insist that Judas was never really saved to begin with or forfeit their belief in eternal security, something which few of them seem to be willing to do.
John MacArthur, Jr. is no exception to this! Though he has many fine teaching cassettes and books available, when it comes to the subject of eternal security, even when it is not directly the issue, he becomes Scripturally unsound and illogical, like Charles Stanley and other perpetuators of this teaching.
The following are excerpts from MacArthur's book, The Gospel According To Jesus (1989) regarding Judas from his eternal security perspective:
"Judas is a prime example of a professing believer who fell into absolute apostasy. For three years he followed the Lord with the other disciples. He appeared to be one of them. Presumably he thought of himself as a believer, at least at the outset. It is doubtful that he joined Christ's band with the intention of turning against him. Somewhere along the line he became greedy, but that could hardly have been his motive in the beginning; Jesus and the disciples never had anything of material value (Matthew 8:20). Apparently Judas initially shared the hope of Christ's kingdom, and he likely believed that Jesus was the Messiah. After all, he also had left everything to follow the Lord. In modern terminology, he had 'accepted' Jesus ...."
"Yet, while the others were growing into apostles, Judas was quietly becoming a vile, calculating tool of Satan. Whatever his character seemed to be at the beginning, his faith was not real (John 13:10-11). He was unregenerated, and his heart gradually hardened so that he became the treacherous man who sold the Savior for a fistful of coins. In the end, he was so prepared to do Satan's bidding that the devil himself possessed Judas (John 13:27)" (p.99, emphasis ours).
In his first aforementioned paragraph, MacArthur mentions twice that Judas "followed the Lord"! In the latter of these two, he elaborates by saying of Judas, "He had left everything to follow the Lord." Yet, later in this same article, he states, "Judas illustrates false discipleship" (p.104)! This is illogical! A false disciple cannot be one who has "left everything to follow the Lord"! According to Jesus, one must "give up everything he has" or he can't be His disciple (Lk. 14:33)! Certainly, Jesus wasn't speaking of false discipleship here.
Furthermore, as you can see, MacArthur has Judas "join[ing] Christ's band," as if it already existed before he came on the scene! In contrast, the Biblical account states the following:
"When morning came, he called HIS DISCIPLES to him and chose twelve of them whom he also designated apostles: Simon (whom he named Peter), his brother Andrew, James, John, Philip, Bartholomew, Matthew, Thomas, James son of Alphaeus, Simon who was called the Zealot, Judas son of James, and Judas Iscariot, who became a traitor" (Lk. 6:13-16).
Please note: the first time we hear of Judas Iscariot, we are informed that he already was a "disciple." Furthermore, he was "called" and "chosen" by Christ Himself to be an "apostle" at the same time as the other twelve. See also Jn. 6:70. Judas did NOT just "join" Christ's band which already existed, as this eternal security teacher writes, for he was already part of that group!
MacArthur also erroneously has the Twelve, that is, minus Judas Iscariot, "growing into apostles" instead of instantly being made "apostles" by Christ Himself! Judas too was of this group "chosen" over the other disciples that were present to be the Lord's apostle! This fact about instant apostleship is also shown elsewhere in Scripture and confirmed by the origin of Paul's apostleship (Rom. 1:1). One NEVER "grow[s]" into an apostle, as MacArthur teaches!
Going back to the Scripture passage, please note that Judas "became" a traitor (Lk. 6:16). The word "became" for Judas suggests a change for the worse that occurred sometime after he was chosen as a disciple by Christ to be His apostle, or "special messenger," as that word means. In other words, Judas went from "disciple" to "apostle" to "traitor." Or we might say he was once a "disciple" of the Lord's elevated to apostle, who later "became a traitor," as Scripture words it. Either way, the spiritual condition of this apostle regressed to the place where he betrayed Christ, committed suicide (self-murder) and then went to Hell! What an awesome thing to contemplate!
Also, remember this about Judas: he was sent forth to preach, heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse those having leprosy and to drive out demons (Matt. 10:6-8)! Mk. 3:14,15 state that the Twelve, including Judas, were given spiritual authority by Jesus to drive out demons! For a person to indirectly say that Judas was never saved is to say that Jesus chose Judas, who was unholy, to be his holy representative! [Please see our article, "He was never really saved to begin with."]
Moreover, Jesus quotes from Ps. 41 and attributes it to Judas in Jn. 13:18b. That full verse from Ps. 41 is: "Even my close friend, whom I trusted, he who shared my bread, has lifted up his heel against me," v.9. Please note that Judas was once Jesus' "close friend whom I [Jesus] trusted"! Since Jesus "knew what was in a man" (Jn. 2:25), that is, in his heart, how then could Jesus trust Judas in the early days of their companionship if Judas was never saved? Also, Ps. 41:9 states that Judas was Jesus' "close friend" at that same time. Could that be possible if he was never saved?
MacArthur also made the statement, "his faith was not real" in reference to Judas based on Jn. 13:10,11 where we read, "A person who has had a bath needs only to wash his feet; his whole body is clean. And you are clean, though not every one of you. For he knew who was going to betray him and that was why he said not every one was clean." MacArthur "reads into" those verses as he wears his eternal security glasses and sees that Judas was not "clean" in contrast to the other disciples. But does this say that Judas was never "clean"? It merely says, at that point in time, Judas wasn't "clean" then! Remember, he was a disciple in the beginning, chosen to be an apostle, so he must have been "clean" at the beginning! Hence, MacArthur tries to make Jn. 13:10,11 say that Judas didn't have "real" faith -- without a solid Scriptural basis!
Other eternal security proponents say Judas was called a "devil" (Jn. 6:70), a "thief" (Jn. 12:6), and "Satan entered into him" (Jn. 13:27), how then could he have been saved? Such overlook the truth that one's spiritual condition can CHANGE from righteous to evil as exemplified with Demas, the Prodigal Son and Solomon.
Some have also confused the truth stated in Jn. 6:64 to mean Judas never believed even from the beginning. However, it doesn't say that at all! The verses read, "'Yet there are some of you who do not believe.' For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them (plural) did not believe and who (singular) would betray him." Notice there are TWO groups referred to here. This is evident in the Greek. One is plural in tense that didn't believe from the beginning and the other is singular in tense referring to Judas who would betray him! The Wuest translation renders Jn. 6:64 as follows: "But there are some of you who are not believing. For Jesus knew from the beginning who THEY WERE who were not believing, and who the ONE WAS who was betraying him."
Eternal security proponents are obviously so accustomed to hearing illogical argumentation such as these to support their doctrine, they seem to be desensitized as to how absurd it is to be taught that one of the original Twelve apostles, "chosen" by Christ Himself, was never really saved, as must be asserted! If not, eternal security would be logically refuted! This apparent absurdity might be why the teachers of such almost never refer to Judas by his church title -- "Apostle," the highest office in the New Testament church (1 Cor. 12:28; Eph. 4:11)! Can you remember the last time you heard an eternal security teacher refer to the Lord's betrayer as "the Apostle Judas" or "the Apostle Judas Iscariot" who became a traitor?
Again, to maintain a belief in their doctrine, the eternal security proponents shockingly believe the Apostle Judas Iscariot was never saved! Wow!
How sobering it should be for all to ponder what happened to the Apostle Judas in the New Testament and Solomon, the builder of the Temple, in the Old Testament, that is, how their righteous and pure hearts became evil and corrupted over the course of time. This intense spiritual warfare, which we are now fighting, has destroyed many that were saved at one time, according to Scripture.
Reader, be on your guard against the devil's various efforts to plunge even YOU into ruin and destruction. Paul wrote:
"Finally, be strong in the Lord and in his mighty power. Put on the full armor of God so that you can take your stand against the devil's schemes. For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms. Therefore, put on the full armor of God so that when the day of evil comes, you may be able to stand your ground, and after you have done everything, to stand. Stand firm then, with the belt of truth buckled around your waist, with the breastplate of righteousness in place, and with your feet fitted with the readiness that comes from the gospel of peace. In addition to all this, take up the shield of faith, with which you can extinguish all the FLAMING ARROWS OF THE EVIL ONE. Take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God. And pray in the spirit on all occasions with all kinds of prayers and requests. With this in mind, be alert and always keep on praying for all the saints" (Eph. 6:10-18).
To adopt the eternal security understanding that the Apostle Judas was never saved is to do away with his fall from such a high spiritual position, which is also a prime indicator of our intense, spiritual warfare and its casualties! Our spiritual war will never end for us, that is, until we die physically or get caught up to meet the Lord in the air. Considering this, Jesus both advises and at the same time declares the sad future for many who know Heaven is a reality, "Be endeavoring with a strenuous zeal to enter through the narrow door, because many, I am saying to you, will seek to enter and will NOT be able" (Lk. 13:24, Wuest).
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
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Betty Louise
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Member # 7175
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posted
Judas was never saved. He looked to Jesus as a way to over take the Roman empire. When Jesus refused, he betrayed Jesus.
http://www.geocities.com/cobblestoneministries/2005_CRM/WasJudasEverSaved.html
Luke 22:3 "Then entered Satan into Judas surnamed Iscariot, being of the number of the twelve."
Jesus said that it was impossible to of God and possessed by the devil at the same time. If Judas had been a Christian, he would have never been possessed by satan.
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
Posts: 5051 | From: Houston, Texas | Registered: May 2008
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oneinchrist
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Hi again Yahsway,
I see the distinction that you make between Peter and Judas and I agree with that distincion-----that Peter repented and Judas did not.
I also understand that the violation of any point is considered a violation of all.
But I also know that when I read through the bible that there are particular sins that are noted as an abomination to God. Now abomination means "very repulsive " or "uphalling". Personally, I believe that, in the example I gave, Gods anger would be kindled much more towards the man who committed the sin of shedding innocent blood than towards the child who lied for fear of a spanking. Of course I still realize that does not mean that either one is more or less in need of Christ.
Now in reference to the instructions given to the Gentiles by the Holy Ghost........ I would agree with you that those are not "additional requirements for salvation", but I also believe in the potential danger of purposely ignoring Holy Spirits warnings to us.
With love in Christ, Daniel
Posts: 1389 | From: Wind Lake, WI | Registered: May 2007
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yahsway
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Beloved brother Daniel, I see what you are saying. Let me try to clarify my thoughts here.
Peter as we know, repented and we know the rest of the story.
Although the scriptures say that Judas was sorrowful, it does not say that he repented, which means to turn around and go back to his first love.
We read in Acts 1:17 that Judas was a part of the ministry "for he was numbered with us and obtained a part in this ministry".
verse 25 Judas by Transgression fell, that he might go to his own place."
Transgression here means: abandoning a trust, departing, stepping aside, overstep, violation, rebellion, apostasy, disobedience, deviation from an original and True direction.
And the difference between Judas and Peter was that Although Judas was "sorrowful" for what he did, he did not repent and turn back to that direction he left from. He killed himself.
But Peter repented and turned back to the direction that he deviated from.
Luke 22:32 Yeshua told Peter
"But I have prayed for you, that your faith should not fail; and when you have RETURNED to Me, strengthen your brethren."
Yeshua knew beforehand of Peters denial and subsequent REPENTANCE. Just like He knew that Judas would betray Him, also stating that it "would have been better for Judas if he had not been born." Yeshua knew that Judas would not repent.
Now we know that transgression of the law is sin. Peter no doubt did lie because of fear. But in Gods eyes it was still sin.
Sin is not represented in the scriptures as the absence of good, or as an illusion that stems from our human limitations. Sin is portrayed as a real and positive evil.
Sin is more than unwise, inexpedient, calamitous behavior that produces sorrow and distress. It is rebellion against God's law, the standard of righteousness (Ps. 119:160)
Since God demands righteousness, sin must be defined in terms of mankinds relation to God. Sin is the faithless rebellion of creatures against the just authority of their Creator.
So, for this reason, breaking Gods law at any point involves transgression at every point. (James 2:10)
Violation of the law of God in thought, word, and deed shows the sinfulness of the human heart.
So Peters denial and Judas betrayal in the eyes of God were sin. The difference between Peter and Judas is the choice they made after wards.
Peter repented and returned to Yeshua, Judas did not repent and died.
The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is Eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
To answer your question about the Jerusalem councils 4 requirements for the Gentiles turning to God, these were not requirements for salvation.
These 4 requirements represented a basic separation from glaring paganism and its practices, particularly offensive to Jewish scruples.
Posts: 1238 | From: Tennessee | Registered: Aug 2004
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oneinchrist
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Hi Yahsway,
I would like to adress one part of your post........that Judas sin was no greater than the sin of Peter.
Sometimes I wonder how to view that comparison.......because.....when we read the bible we see that sin is sin, but when we read certain parts of the bible we see that there are some sins that are pointed out as especially uphalling or repulsive to God.
Now as far as comparing Peters sin to Judas sin I wonder if it is right to say that Peter betrayed Jesus. Judas' betrayal was a well thought out pre-meditated plan to turn Jesus over to His enemies for a profit; whereas, Peter denied Jesus because he was afraid to die.
Yes, sin is sin........but do you actually think that Gods heart is affected the same way, say, for instance by a man who abducts and murders a child vs. a child who lies because he is afraid to get a spanking.
All in all, I do believe that we all need to be saved from sin............but I question whether or not God looks at every sin the same way, especially considering there are sins that are pointed out as an abomination(uphalling;very repulsive) to Him.
Another thing interesting to note is that in the book of Acts, we find that there is a message from the Holy Ghost to instruct the Gentiles to abstain from things polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from things strangled, and from blood..........is this because these sins are worse than other sins?........or could it be because this is sin/temptation that is at the forefront of Satans attempt to bring destruction upon Gods people?
With love in Christ, Daniel
Posts: 1389 | From: Wind Lake, WI | Registered: May 2007
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yahsway
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Wonderful insight becauseHeLives!
As i read your post, I thought how Judas betrayed and sold Yeshua and how Peter Denied Him 3 times.
You are correct. Judas sin was no greater than Peters.
Also you are correct about backsliding. You must be saved first in order to backslide.
To repent doesn't just mean to turn around and go the opposite way, it means to turn around and go back to your Fathers House just like the prodigal son did.
Posts: 1238 | From: Tennessee | Registered: Aug 2004
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becauseHElives
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Member # 87
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Betty quote:
get saved over and over.
I know of no one that teaches this....
but there is backsliding and anyone that stays in an unrepentant backsliden state and does not repent when the Holy Spirit is continually dealing with the heart to repent, is a different matter....
you first have to be saved to backslide!
Copper25 ...I mentioned Demas you had no reply....now let us look at Judas....
Yahshua Himself choose Judas...Judas was "called" and "chosen" by Christ Himself to be an "apostle" at the same time as the other twelve.
Also, remember this about Judas: he was sent forth to preach, heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse those having leprosy and to drive out demons (Matt. 10:6-8)!
Mk. 3:14,15 state that the Twelve, including Judas, were given spiritual authority by Jesus to drive out demons! For a person to indirectly say that Judas was never saved is to say that Jesus chose Judas, who was unholy, to be his holy representative!
Jhn 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.
the Apostle Judas could have repented just as the Apostle Peter did and all the other Apostles did... they all turned on Yahshua that same night...
Judas's sin was no greater than Peter's.....
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
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Betty Louise
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Cooper,
I was raised in the Assembly of God Church. We were taught that you could lose your salvation. I have been Baptist for about 15 years. I am finding myself more and more believing in OSAS. Not because my Preacher, preaches that but because I am beginning to believe that we do not have to get saved over and over.
The problem is that not everyone that goes down and shakes the Preachers hand gets saved. Some truly feel guilty about their sin, but they refuse to turn from their sins. Salvation is more then saying your sorry for your sins but turning from your sins. This does not mean that salvation makes one perfect, but if a child of God continues to live in sin, God will whip them back in line.
New American Standard Bible (©1995)
For whom the LORD loves He reproves, Even as a father corrects the son in whom he delights.
I believe God saves us with an everylasting salvation and not just a salvation that last until, we fall.
But salvation is not just sorrow for sin but true repentance.
betty
If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.
Some Christians will make it to Heaven having no works that will stand the fire. I pray none of us on this board will be in that group. Some Christians want to do as little as they can and still be saved. Some who do only do to impress men. May we do the work of Christ for His glory and with gladness
http://www.gospeltruth.net/1836LTPC/ltpc09_tandf_repentance.htm
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
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Found in Him
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posted
Copper,
God will be faithful to His sheep undoubtedly. God however cannot and will not force people to continue to follow Him. All men have a free will.
2 Peter 2
20 If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. 21 It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them. 22 Of them the proverbs are true: "A dog returns to its vomit,"[f]and, "A sow that is washed goes back to her wallowing in the mud."
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~To Him That is able to keep you from falling and to present you before His glorious presence without fault and with great joy...to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.~ Jude 24
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Copper25
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Member # 7464
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posted
ponder this for a moment.
The Lord knows His sheep as stated in John 10:27, "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me"
Now let us look at Matthew 7
21) Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22) Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23) And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
So, all these that claim to be Christian, in reality they are not nor have ever been Christian. Why, (Matthew 24:5) "For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many." or (Jeremiah 17:9) "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked" and people make the huge error of trusting in themselves rather than God. Christ said many will be deceived, if you deny that in today's world, that people are not being deceived in mass numbers, you missed the magnitude of what Matthew 24:5 says.
Do you even have the clue as to who in Matthew 7 Jesus was talking about when he said "Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat". He was specifically talking to ALL those people that are claiming to be His diciples. Out of the HUGE number of people over the years after Christ died, who claim to be Christian, the fact was that they were never known by Christ. Why, (John 10:27) "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me"
Thus this concludes also that all those who Christ knows are given to him by His father. Why, John 6:37 explains, "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out." Now consider this, not everyone, as a matter of fact, many who claim Christ are not his! Why,John 1:12 explains, "But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name"
Now considering this, many confess His name but may not really be His child at all. Notice what Christ said in Matthew 7
Matthew 7:23) And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Christ NEVER knew them. If a true child of God can slip into destruction and hell, this scripture would be a lie. Why, because Jesus knows his sheep. To say that one of His sheep fell away, that a true child of God slipped away and could be categorized with this group is heresy. Why, because this group was never known by Christ and let us not forget that Christ is referencing not to those that completely and utterly don't acknowledge his existence, but rather the whole group that do confess his name. How do we know this? Look at the context of it.
Matthew 7
13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Now I want you to really take a moment and analyze this, why would Christ after speaking on Matthew 7:13-14, immediately start talking about false prophets, and fruitfulness, and the fire that awaits the fruitless, and the MANY confessing "Lord, Lord" in the cases of those trying to enter in heaven, but then hear in verse 23, "I never knew you". ALL these represent people who claimed Christ, now notice the Hebrew emphasis on Lord in verse 21 and 22 and THINK! OUT OF All those that were claiming Christ the majority or a big portion of their life didn't know him, but more importantly, Christ didn't know them! Furthermore, they had no fellowship. Biblically, to know someone is not like you know your neighbor, but rather your wife. They were not known of Christ and were not his sheep. Why, John 10:27, "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me". Now notice this, Christ' sheep follow him, they bear their cross. Why, Luke 14:27 says "And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple." Now what is the cross, suffering, pain affliction, struggle, immense opposition, and many elements of the such, but plainly hardship. "they follow me", notice that Christ does not say that they may follow me and fall away, or they might hear my voice. Thus after all this, we can conclude that
All those who are TRULY Christ' sheep, will carry their cross. The true sheep will not be among that HUGE amount mentioned in Matthew 22 which composed of many. They were drawn by the Father and given to Christ by His father. If a sheep, a TRUE believer EVER fell away and abandoned the faith, or for that matter live lukewarm, they would be part of that crowd, that Christ says "I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity." which is a DIRECT contradiction with the scripture, which we know to be the inspired word of God.
2 Peter 1:20) Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
and
2 Timothy 3:16) All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness
ALL those who claim to know Christ when all is said and done in this life are going to either hear "I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity." or (Matthew 25:34) "Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world"
People can confess with their lips that they know (meaning having an intimate relationship with) Christ, but in reality He knows his true sheep and no man (john 10:28-29)is able to pluck them out of His hand. I have laid the evidence before your eyes, this is my last post on this this thread, because frankly, if you cannot understand what I just posted, odds are you are just pressing down the truth of the bible with your own understanding.
In Jesus name,
Love Copper25
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Isaiah 40:6) The voice said, Cry. And he said, What shall I cry? All flesh is grass, and all the goodliness thereof is as the flower of the field
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becauseHElives
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that's your opinion Copper25 , there are verses that clearly state Yahweh never knew certain individuals that thought for some reason or the other they were saved .....
but there are also many scriptures that state clearly individual were saved and turned away....
Demas was a traveling companion of the Apostle Paul (Col. 4:14; Philemon 24). Together they worked, enduring various troubles and persecution, to extend the kingdom of God. This speaks highly of Demas at that point in time, for Paul was very selective and careful with whom he labored for the Lord. This is apparent since he rejected John (also called Mark) for his past unfaithfulness (Acts 15:37-41).
However, in Paul’s last letter before his own martyrdom, he informed Timothy of the following change in Demas:
For Demas, because he loved this world, has deserted me and has gone to Thessalonica (2 Tim. 4:10, NIV).
The Wuest expanded translation reads:
Demas let me down, having set a high value upon this present age and thus has come to love it.
This translation clearly states that at the time of Demas’ departure from Paul:
(1) He loved this world which caused him to desert Paul. [The Greek shows what Demas came to love is that of which Satan is god (2 Cor. 4:4)!]
(2) He didn’t love the world like this earlier in his Christian life. In other words, his heart condition was different at the time of Paul’s last letter. Apparently, Demas did not guard his heart (Prov. 4:23). Somehow he got deceived which naturally affected his behavior.
Remembering all this about Demas, let Scripture speak to you more extensively about him:
Do not love the world or anything in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him (1 Jn. 2:15, NIV).
The seriousness of not loving the Father is evident from Jam. 1:12; 2:5 and Jn. 5:42. In other words, this reflects that one is not saved when he doesn’t love the Father. Demas degenerated to this state.
Eph. 2:1,2 goes on to say:
As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient (NIV).
The word translated ways (aion) is the same word found in 2 Tim. 4:10, which is also what Demas came to love. The word translated world (kosmos) is the same word found in 1 Jn. 2:15!
Jam. 4:4 supplements all this by adding:
You adulterous people, don’t you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God (NIV).
James was, in part, writing to a group of spiritual adulterers. (Compare this to Jer. 3:20 and Ezek. 6:9.) Notice how James declares that one can become an enemy of God [again].
Other translations similarly say:
Adulterers! Do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God? Therefore whoever wishes to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God (NRSV).
You adulteresses, do you not know that friendship with the world is hostility toward God? Therefore whoever wishes to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God (NASB).
One is either saved or unsaved; with Jesus or against him; a child of God or an enemy of God. Now, for one to become an enemy of God must imply he was, just before that spiritual condition, a child of God. There is no other spiritual condition in which to be. Jam. 4:4, therefore, means such go from enemy of God to child of God to enemy of God again! Heb. 10:27 adds to this by saying:
. . . raging fire that will consume the enemies of God (NIV).
So if one becomes an enemy of God from his former spiritual condition of being saved, then he can’t be saved any more and raging fire is awaiting him, unless he repents.
James cites in condensed form what happened to Demas, that is, a Christian can come to love the world and show himself no longer saved. Also, this is the answer for those who say, based on the Old Testament, that “Christ is married to the backslider,” but fail to say:
I gave faithless Israel her certificate of divorce and sent her away because of all her adulteries (Jer. 3:8, NIV).
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
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Copper25
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Matthew 7:21) Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Matthew 7:22) Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
In both of these cases, notice the phrase "Lord, Lord" which implies that these people thought that they knew God a good majority of their life, never fully denied Christ with their lips, but rather with their living. These people were never saved
Matthew 15:8) This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.
Think about it, by their fruits, yes, and they lived as hypocrites and denied God with their living.
You Do not have to fully reject the faith to not be saved. The half truth is DEADLY. Why because MILLIONS UPON MILLIONS have not denied Jesus with their mouth and are still going to hell! Why, because they never ever were brought to repentance!Why, because they never came to the full truth, but rather lived with a half truth!
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Isaiah 40:6) The voice said, Cry. And he said, What shall I cry? All flesh is grass, and all the goodliness thereof is as the flower of the field
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becauseHElives
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Copper25 quote:
Hebrews 12:7 states "If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?"
any time you see the word "if", it implies a conditional response exist....
For a person to say that a professing Christian was never saved, if he turns away from God to sin, is fallacious in at least 7 different areas. If you are a Christian, carefully ponder the following so you can help others see the dangerous folly of such a declaration.
Reason 1
For one to say a professing Christian who turns away from God to sin was never saved is also to deny that we can know who is saved and who is not by their present tense behavior. Such is clearly unscriptural:
This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother. (1 John 3:10)
Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. He who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous. He who does what is sinful is of the devil. (1 John 3:7,8)
We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands. The man who says, “I know him,” but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in him. (1 John 2:3,4)
The Bible is crystal clear that we can know them by their fruit (Mt. 7:16,17) and there is observable evidence of God’s saving grace:
News of this reached the ears of the church at Jerusalem, and they sent Barnabas to Antioch. When he arrived and saw the evidence of the grace of God, he was glad and encouraged them all to remain true to the Lord with all their hearts. (Acts 11:22,23)
● To say a professing Christian who turns away from God to wickedness was never saved is to deny that others were ever able to identify him as a non-Christian before that happened.
Reason 2
For one to say a professing Christian who turns away from God to sin was never saved is also to have an inconsistent message. If those same teachers were consistent they would have to say David, Solomon and Peter were never saved because they backslid. David turned to adultery and murder (2 Sam. 11); Solomon turned to idolatry (1 Kings 11:4-10) and Peter disowned Jesus three times (Mt. 26:33,34). Both David and Peter repented and returned to God but Solomon continued in wickedness. There is no evidence that Solomon ever returned to God.
● To say a professing Christian who turns away from God to wickedness was never saved is to exclude prominent Biblical characters who were truly saved before terribly falling to that degree. On this basis alone, the never saved argument is destroyed.
Reason 3
To say a professing Christian who turns away from God to wickedness was never saved is to imply that true Christians will not turn away to sin but continue to obey God. But that type of message is often opposed and scoffed at by the same teachers. In other words, those same teachers declare Christians constantly sin in thought, word and deed. They also wrongly use Romans 7:14-25 for support and to teach that Paul was like that and such is the normal Christian life! Imagine that! They teach like that then turn 180 degrees around and teach the same crowd if you turn away you were never saved—two completely opposite teachings, yet their audience seems oblivious to it.
● To say a professing Christian who turns away from God to wickedness was never saved is also to teach that a true Christian will always obey God and never backslide, which is denied by their misuse of Rom. 7:14-25.
Reason 4
To say a professing Christian who turns away from God to wickedness was never saved is to ignore at least 26 Scriptures in the NT which show people who previously were disciples and followers of Christ later fell away, turned away, went back, etc. and not once in those 2 dozen plus passages do we read because they went back that was evidence which proves they were never saved. Scripture shows it can be somewhat common for followers of Christ to turn to wickedness; get deceived into believing a false gospel; etc.
● To say a professing Christian who turns away from God to wickedness was never saved is also to display ignorance of those 26 Scriptures (plus all the other relevant Scriptures) which teach the opposite. (See The Believer’s Conditional Security, p. 632 for a listing of those Scriptures.)
Reason 5
To say a professing Christian who turns away from God to wickedness was never saved is also to teach you can never know if anyone is a Christian brother or sister, including the preacher himself who taught you this never really saved absurdity. Maybe he is just a false convert too.
Their doctrine would have us believe another’s salvation can’t be known as long as one remains alive, because as long as they remain alive they might apostatize and thereby prove they were never saved. If you can’t tell if another is a Christian then you can’t consider someone to be a spiritual leader or a possible spouse to marry, since both require true Christians.
● To say a professing Christian who turns away from God to wickedness was never saved is also to teach that no Christian can ever know another to be a possible spiritual leader or spouse for marriage.
Reason 6
To say a professing Christian who turns away from God to wickedness was never saved is only backed by two passages, which are both misused.
Matthew 7:23
The first is Mt. 7:23 where Jesus tells continuous tense evildoers that he never knew them.
Not everyone who says to me, “Lord, Lord,” will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, “Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?” Then I will tell them plainly, “I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!” (Mat 7:21-23)
The context shows the religious ones referred to there were never saved but were continuous tense evildoers. Those religious-but-continuous evildoers never had evidence of saving grace, that is, a freedom from sin addictions which occurs when one contacts the blood of Jesus at true conversion (Rom. 6:22; John 8:34-36; Rev. 1:5; etc.), but that doesn’t mean others who had a true conversion can’t shrink back, as the Bible shows has happened.
Furthermore, the never saved proponents focus in on the one and only passage which has the words never saved (or its equivalent), but conveniently overlook three passages which show others were also not known by the Lord Jesus, but not told they were never saved:
But he replied, “I tell you the truth, I don’t know you.” (Mat 25:12)
Once the owner of the house gets up and closes the door, you will stand outside knocking and pleading, “Sir, open the door for us.” But he will answer, “I don’t know you or where you come from.” (Luke 13:25)
But he will reply, “I don’t know you or where you come from. Away from me, all you evildoers!” (Luke 13:27)
Jesus didn’t tell them, I never knew you, like in Mt. 7:23, but instead I don’t know you. That implies they were once known (saved), but later lost their salvation. This is especially clear with the 10 Virgins teaching (Mt. 25:1-13).
1 John 2:19
The second Scripture misused by the never saved OSAS crowd for support is 1 John 2:19, which refers to people who did not believe Jesus was the Christ, as shown in 1 John 2:22:
Who is the liar? It is the man who denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a man is the antichrist—he denies the Father and the Son.
Their doctrine clearly excluded them from being a Christian. They too had no evidence of saving grace since they denied Jesus was the Christ.
● To say a professing Christian who turns away from God to wickedness was never saved is also to rely chiefly upon two Scriptures, both of which are misused and misapplied. Hence, there is no solid Biblical support for it. The people referred to in each never had evidence of saving faith because they were either continuous tense evildoers or doctrinally denied Jesus was the Christ.
Reason 7
To say a professing Christian who turns away from God to wickedness was never saved is also cited as an argument to conceal the license for immorality that the once saved always saved doctrine declares itself to be. When their doctrine gets exposed as the security in sin gospel or they notice gross immorality among those they have been preaching to, they then tend to mention their contradicting, inconsistent, double message with no Scriptural support—the never saved absurd argument.
With some people, it has actually succeeded in confusing the issue enough to conceal the glaring wickedness and security-in-sin being taught through eternal security at other times.
● People who cite the never saved argument are either grossly ignorant of hundreds of Scriptures which counter the never saved doctrine or are intentionally hiding those related-but- contradictory-truths to preserve their own doctrine, which began with the devil himself in Gen. 3:4.
There are well over 100 relevant Scriptures which refute the never saved argument. They only have 2 verses, which are both misused and misapplied. Which will you believe?
One more point: Calvinist John MacArthur is one of the leading proponents (along with Ray Comfort) of this absurd unscriptural never saved (or false convert) argument. Yet MacArthur clearly teaches, at times, there are Christian adulterers, Christian drunks, Christian thieves, Christian liars, Christian murderers, etc.
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
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Eden
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sister yahsway wrote quote:
"Lord", Greek kurios, has 4 possible meanings.
(1) "sir"
(2) "lord" in the human sense, as in "lord of the manor"
(3) "Lord" in the divine sense
(4) Gods personal name YHVH
I did a New Testament (NT) search of 2962 kurios to see all the ways into which "kurios" was translated in the English KJV.
It is true that "kurios" has been translated "Sir" and "masters", BUT, the occurrences of "Sir" and "masters" are EXTREMELY RARE in the NT.
For example, out of a total of about 750 occurrences of the word "kurios" in the NT, only about 10 (ten) are translated "Sir" or "masters", as in these following examples. In John 20:15, Jesus has just resurrected and Mary Magdelene seeks where they have lain Jesus and she calls the "gardener 'kurios' or 'Sir'":
John 20:15
Jesus said to her, Woman, why are you weeping? Whom do you seek? She, supposing him to be the gardener, said to him, Sir {Greek, kurios), if you have carried him from here, tell me where you have laid him, and I will take him away.
Acts 16:16
And it came to pass as we went to prayer, that a certain damsel possessed with a spirit of divination met us, who brought her masters {Greek, kurios} much gain by soothsaying.
So clearly there WAS some use among the population of the word "kurios" to mean "someone who had absolute ownership over someone else".
However, ALMOST NOBODY ELSE in the NT is EVER called "kurios" in the NT, so that out of the 750 total occurrences of the word "kurios 2962" in the NT (that underlies the KJV), without exception the "kurios" refer either to Jesus being called a "kurios" by someone, or it is Jesus Himself who tells a parable using the word "kurios", as in parables like "there was a lord {Greek, kurios) of the vineyard".
So practically the entire NT occurrences of "kurios" occurred when someone addressed Jesus, or Jesus Himself used the word "kurios" in a parable.
What is really astonishing therefore is that practically NO ONE ELSE is called "kurios" in the NT which underlies the KJV.
However, it still could be that the word "kurios" was "in more more common use" in Judah-Galilee than the NT would indicate since the NT is about Jesus and not necessarily about "other people".
But still, I would think that ALL the unbelieving Pharisees and Saduccees must have "been furious" to hear Jesus of Nazareth addressed as "kurios" all the time, especially since the Greek LXX Septuagint was fully in common use by the 1st century A.D. in Judah and Galilee.
And everybody knew also from synagogue attendance that the Greek Septuagint Old Testament consistently translated the Hebrew word YHWH or LORD by the word "kurios".
So sister yahsway wrote quote:
"Lord", Greek kurios, has 4 possible meanings:
(1) "sir"
(2) "lord" in the human sense, as in "lord of the manor"
(3) "Lord" in the divine sense
(4) Gods personal name YHVH
It is in any case astonishing that out of about 750 total occurrences of "kurios" in the NT, that all but about 10 refer either directly to Jesus or it is Jesus telling a parable with the word "kurios" in it.
love, Eden
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Copper25
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(NKJV) John 15:1-2) I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit.
Do you even realize what this is saying, God our Father is vinedresser, if one TRUE branch got lost, which would never happen, it would be His fault!
John 6:44) No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
It is God that calls someone to repentance. Do you even realize that because of our wicked human nature as shown in Genesis 6:5 or Jeremiah 17:9, the deceitfulness and wickedness of our hearts, the continually evil pulsating in us in our old nature, the unconverted nature, that we could NEVER come to God, NEVER come to repentance. Why, because by nature we hate God until HE changes us, until he gives us a new spirit and a new heart.
Ezekiel 36:26) A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
Do you see, from the beginning, repentance does not start in our lives because we wanted it to, it started because God wanted it to, God allowed it, God gave the grace and the transformation!
John 15:16)Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you
Do you see, ALL who Christ has ordained, who are elected of the Father, who are brought to Him, who are TRULY brought to Him, their fruit WILL remain. They WILL be fruitful. Why, Hebrews 12:7 states "If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?" ANYONE who IS a REAL TRUE child of God will be corrected by God. You say that a child of God, God would let slip into condemnation, a fallen state, and yet an evil man would chastise his son repetitively, yes even promptly,but God wouldn't do the same for His own children?
Matthew 7:11) If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?
Apply this concept to what I said earlier. God is not a negligent nor a neglectful father, meaning he does not abandon the children he has choosen to be His elect.
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Isaiah 40:6) The voice said, Cry. And he said, What shall I cry? All flesh is grass, and all the goodliness thereof is as the flower of the field
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becauseHElives
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in all your examples never forget the example of salvation of the Story of Passover!
The Passover is first and foremost a festival of salvation. The Israelites were delivered from Egypt by God’s outstretched arm, with signs and with miracles. Likewise, by believing in Jesus we too have been delivered. Egypt as we remember represents flesh, sin, slavery and death. The splashing of the lamb’s blood upon the doorposts and lintel is a beautiful sign of Jesus’ blood and the deliverance brought by it.
they were commanded not to leave the place of safety, that was behind the Blood....
but stupid as it would have been to leave the place of safety, they were free to leave ....
remember Paul's warning..... about Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? Hebrews 10:29
where else do we see the picture of the Blood so clearly displayed but missed by so many....!
when the hyssop branch was dipped and the Blood applied to the door sides and top the Blood would also fall upon the threshold....
thus we now have Blood on the floor that if you leave the safety of the provided room you trample the Blood.....
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
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Found in Him
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Welcome to the board Whisper!
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~To Him That is able to keep you from falling and to present you before His glorious presence without fault and with great joy...to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.~ Jude 24
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Found in Him
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But don't miss the point... He is asking the hearer WHY they call/ called Him LORD when He wants NOTHING to do with them at all. He will say to them-- I NEVER KNEW YOU...
Many will have done MANY works in His name-- meaning they claimed to be Christians and were not!
Those who do not abide in Jesus are none of His...
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~To Him That is able to keep you from falling and to present you before His glorious presence without fault and with great joy...to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.~ Jude 24
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yahsway
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"Lord", Greek kurios, has 4 possible meanings.
(1) "sir"
(2) "lord" in the human sense, as in "lord of the manor"
(3) "Lord" in the divine sense
(4) Gods personal name YHVH
In this present verse discussed here, Yeshua seems to say that a day will come when people will address Him as the Divine Lord.
I believe thats why the verse renders 2 Lords, as in Lord, Lord ......
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whisper
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Thanks Edan for the post, thats why Im here to learn.I know this dispute will not be settled because there is so much scripture that both sides in this depate have at there disposal. Either way this is not something that will keep someone out of heaven.Its by Christ alone that we are saved. Have you seen the series by John Beveere "Driven by eternity". It is essentially on this topic. My church has used several series that he has out and they are all very deep and thought provoking . Have a great day , Gods Blessings.
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Eden
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Here are some verses from Matthew where Jesus is called kurios, Strong's Concordance 2962, and also where Jesus uses the word kurios in His own parables:
Mat 8:8 The centurion answered and said, Lord 2962, I am not worthy that you should come under my roof: but speak the word only, and my servant shall be healed.
Mat 8:21 And another of his disciples said to him, Lord 2962, suffer me first to go and bury my father.
Mat 8:25 And his disciples came to {him}, and awoke him, saying, Lord 2962, save us: we perish.
Mat 9:28 And when he was come into the house, the blind men came to him: and Jesus said to them, Do you believe that I am able to do this? They said to him, Yes, Lord 2962.
Mat 9:38 Pray you therefore the Lord 2962 of the harvest, that he will send forth laborers into his harvest.
Mat 10:24 The disciple is not above {his} master 1320, nor the servant above his Lord 2962.
Mat 10:25 It is enough for the disciple that he be as his master 1320, and the servant as his Lord 2962. If they have called the master of the house Beelzebub, how much more {shall they call} them of his household?
Mat 11:25 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank You, O Father, Lord 2962 of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and prudent, and have revealed them to babes.
Mat 12:8 For the Son of man is Lord 2962 even of the sabbath day.
Mat 13:51 Jesus said to them, Have you understood all these things? They said to him, Yes, Lord 2962.
Mat 14:28 And Peter answered him nd said, Lord 2962, if it be you, bid me come to you on the water.
Mat 14:30 But when {Peter} saw the wind boisterous, he was afraid; and beginning to sink, he cried, saying, Lord 2962, save me.
Mat 15:22 And, look, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried to him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord 2962, {You} Son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil.
Mat 15:25 Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord 2962, help me.
Mat 15:27 And she said, Truth, Lord 2962: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table.
Mat 16:22 Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from you, Lord 2962: this shall not be unto you.
Mat 17:4 Then answered Peter to Jesus 2424, Lord 2962, it is good for us to be here: if you will, let us make here three tabernacles; one for you, and one for Moses, and one for Elijah.
Mat 17:15 Lord 2962, have mercy on my son: for he is lunatick and sore vexed: for ofttimes he falls into the fire, and often falls into the water.
Mat 18:21 Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord 2962, how often shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? Until seven times?
Mat 18:25 But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his Lord 2962 commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made.
Mat 18:26 The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord 2962, have patience with me, and I will pay you all.
Mat 18:27 Then the Lord 2962 of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him, and forgave him the debt.
So we see Jesus also describing Himself as the lord 2962 or kurios in His own parables which ultimately are about Himself.
As far as I can tell, only Jesus of Nazareth was addressed as KURIOS in the New Testament, which is astonishing in the light of the fact that the Greek LXX Septuagint version of the Hebrew Old Testament ONLY USES the word KURIOS for the LORD Yehova of the Hebrew Old Testament!
So KURIOS meant A LOT MORE THAN MASTER in the 1st century A.D., whisper.
love, Eden
"Jesus is faithful"
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Eden
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hi, whisper, nice to meet you. You wrote to copper25 quote:
copper, in your post you quote mathew 7:21 is He not talking to the saved they call him Lord (master) would the unsaved call Him Lord?
Matthew 7:21
Not every one who says to Me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven.
Regarding the word "Lord" in Matt.7:21, you say that it means "master".
Strong's Concordance
Matthew 4:10 Then 5119 saith 3004 Jesus 2424 unto him 846, Get thee hence 5217 , Satan 4567: for 1063 it is written 1125 , Thou shalt worship 4352 the Lord 2962 thy 4675 God 2316, and 2532 him 846 only 3441 shalt thou serve 3000.
Matthew 5:33 Again 3825, you have heard 191 that 3754 it has been said 4483 by them of old time 744, You shall 1964 not 3756 forswear yourself 1964 , but 1161 shall perform 591 to the Lord 2962 your 4675 oaths 3727.
Matthew 7:21 Not 3756 every one 3956 who says 3004 to Me 3427, Lord 2962, Lord 2962, shall enter 1525 into 1519 the kingdom 932 of heaven 3772; but 235 he who does 4160 the will 2307 of my 3450 Father 3962 who is in 1722 heaven 3772.
Matthew 7:22 For many 4183 will say 2046 to me 3427 in 1722 that 1565 day 2250, Lord 2962, Lord 2962, have we 4395 not 3756 prophesied 4395 in Your 4674 name 3686? and 2532 in Your 4674 name 3686 have cast out 1544 devils 1140? and 2532 in Your 4674 name 3686 done 4160 many 4183 wonderful works 1411?
Lord 2962, Greek of the New Testament
2962. kurios, from kuros (supremacy); supreme in authority, i.e. (as noun) controller; by implication, Master (as a respectful title):-- God, Lord, master, Sir.
So, whisper, you wrote to copper25 quote:
copper, in your post you quote mathew 7:21 is He not talking to the saved they call him Lord (master) would the unsaved call Him Lord?
whisper, as far as I know, JESUS is the ONLY PERSON in the ENTIRE New Testament who is EVER addressed as KURIOS.
And it is amazing that EVERYONE in Israel in the 1st century A.D. called Jesus KURIOS, both believers AND unbelievers. (I'll try to find a study that my brother did on Kurios).
Now, if it is true that both believers and unbelievers called Jesus KURIOS in the 1st cent. A.D., that is even more astonishing when it is realized that the GREEK LXX Septuagintt version of the Old Testament was being used in Israel for the whole 1st century B.C. AND for the 1st century A.D. during Jesus's days and during Paul's days the Greek LXX Septuagint had been used in the synagogues.
Now, here's my point: in this Greek LXX Septuagint version of the OLD TESTAMENT, the ONLY PERSON who is EVER called KURIOS is the LORD YHWH.
For example, take Genesis 12:1, which says in the Greek LXX: Kai eipe KURIOS to Abram...
And we all know that in the HEBREW Old Testament, the word there is LORD or YHWY, meaning God the Creator.
So it is ASTONISHING to see that there will be people who will STILL call Him, Lord 2962, Lord 2962, or KURIOS, when EVERYONE IN ISRAEL in the 1st century A.D. knew, from the mostly exclusive use of the Greek LXX by Jesus and by Paul, WHO ALONE WAS KURIOS from the Greek LXX Septuagint Old Testament.
If I recall correctly, even UNBELIEVERS called Jesus KURIOS, but I will have to try to find that for you if you're interested.
love, Eden
"He alone can handle the challenges that life brings"
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whisper
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copper in your post you quote mathew 7:21 is He not talking to the saved they call him Lord (master) would the unsaved call Him Lord. We look to Hebrews 6:4 where He states "in the case of those who once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, are these not saved , or Hebrews 10:26 are they not saved. I do not think anyone can rip us away from God but like Adam and Eve we can walk away. I know that this is a debate that will never end . I see in todays world where evangelicals in the latest poll , 69 percent believe that you can get to heaven many ways . Is this because in the western world we are preaching a cheap grace.God says He does not want sacrifice but obediance,I have friends that I believe were truley saved but because of the love of the world and struggles walked away.In the parable of the sower some seed fell on shallow soil, some on rocky , some on good soil. The argument that anyone who walks away was never saved is a pretty conveniat argument.
Posts: 12 | From: canada | Registered: Feb 2009
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Copper25
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Ephesians 1:4) According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Ephesians 1:5) Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will
God has the ultimate foreknowledge. He knows what happens from the beginning to the end. Not only that, but it is of his will anything happens, because he allows it. He is sovereign over all time, all things. When He calls, elects, picks a person to do his working in, to circumcise their heart, (Colossians 2:11, Romans 3:30), to give them a new Spirit and a new heart (Jeremiah 32:39-40, Ezekiel 11:19)(Ezekiel 36:26), that births in that person a new mentality, one that loves and desires to walk in God's law, his precepts, his ways (Ezekiel 36:27)(Ezekiel 11:21), do you think that a person that is TRULY saved is going to slip into a life of perdition once he was been transformed by the Grace of God; or better yet after reading a verse like Jeremiah 32:41, keeping in mind that this is God speaking and saying this, "Yea, I will rejoice over them to do them good, and I will plant them in this land assuredly with my whole heart and with my whole soul.", that God will not do everything in is power (which is limitless) to correct his children, those that are really his?
Hebrew 12:11 states "Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous"
Those that claim God, but can act like the world, be in a continuous state of carnality and rebellion, yet call God their father; they lie and should be very afraid. Psalm 94:12 says "Blessed is the man whom thou chasenest". Why because those whom he chastens, he loves: tough love is a demonstration of the magnitude of love God has for us. We and those who are His true children, he will not let slip into perdition: Why, because (Psalm 23:4) "thy rod and thy staff they comfort me". If we get out of line, God will race to correct us and show us the error of our ways, we get convicted in our hearts by the Holy Spirit. But we do not stay of the narrow way! Those that fall away and never come back are not his children, but rather children of disobedience, children of satan. Why, because they never got corrected, convicted by God's Spirit, but rather just drifted away into perdition.
These I speak of, who do not come back, were not really even Christian from the beginning
Matthew 7:21) Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
We got millions upon millions confessing Christian, but who when you look at their life, the totality of their life and the way they live, the habits they have, the lack of true reverence toward God, their love for the world, they are not Christian. They say God with their lips, but say that God doesn't exist with their life and the way they choose to live.
We got millions upon millions confessing Christian, but don't even want to seek God, nor get to know his word. Romans 3:11) "There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God." The natural (or unconverted man) is not in love with God, doesn't want to seek his truth, thus (Romans 3:17) "the way of peace have they not known" and (Romans 3:18) "There is no fear of God before their eyes."
We got millions upon millions confessing Christian living like there is no, absolutely no law to obey given and that proceeded out of the mouth of God. In the New King James version, Matthew 7:23 states "I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!" Thus this is concluded, those that practice lawlessness shall perish at the hand of Almighty God. They will be ruined eternally, many of whom confessed Christian, but did not know, or better yet, they did not follow the narrow way. Why, because they were never were really converted, they never received from God that new heart, that new spirit, that would make them love and follow after the narrow way, so they live abroad; thinking ALL THEIR LIFE, confessing "LORD, LORD", that even though their life showed no change, not a hint of conversion (because they never familiarized themselves with the doctrine, the truth of regeneration), that they are going to heaven. (John 3:20) "For every one that doeth evil hateth the light". Many dwell in darkness yet acknowledge that Christ is the way, but never come to him, nor abide in Him, and for that matter were not his, nor a child of God!
Romans 8:1) There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Isn't it interesting, according to the text, the word of God, there is "now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus", Thus concluding that ALL who are in the path of destruction, on the road to hell and damnation, are not his. Can a person be a child of God and yet still go hell when the scripture contradicts it. No, simply no.
People love the first part of this verse and yet cut the last part in analyzing, "who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." These are they who HAVE BEEN converted, who HAVE BEEN give a new heart of flesh, who HAVE BEEN given a new spirit. The flesh cannot walk in the Spirit, meaning that the unconverted CANNOT walk in the ways of the Spirit. ONLY the children of God, those that are converted, and changed, and transformed into a new creature can successful walk in the Spiritual way and all others WILL fail! Thus concluding that a CHILD OF GOD IS one who was transformed, IS one that is corrected by and by all means (Jeremiah 32:41) is kept on the narrow path and IS one that does not dwell on the broad path.
We have millions upon millions confessing Christian, claiming to be a child of God, but ARE NOT BECAUSE THEY WHERE NEVER EVER BEFORE IN THEIR LIVES WERE CONVERTED AND TRANSFORMED BY THE POWER OF GOD.
2 Peter 1:10) Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
This is a statement that MANY fail to heed, we only got one life, one chance because Christ died once, and for all.
Brethren, this is the time, let us examine ourselves further and make our calling sure. Millions upon millions are claiming Christ but are dead to him, not alive in Him. "How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation"?
Hebrews 4:16) Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.
Heed the counsel of the Lord
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Isaiah 40:6) The voice said, Cry. And he said, What shall I cry? All flesh is grass, and all the goodliness thereof is as the flower of the field
Posts: 262 | From: Rochester, NY | Registered: Nov 2008
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