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Topic: having or doing
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Eden
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posted
having or doing ...
Matthew 25
29 For to everyone who has shall be given and he shall have abundance; but from him who does not have shall be taken away even that which he has.
30 And cast the unprofitable servant into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Matthew 24
48 But if that evil servant shall say in his heart, "My lord delays his coming",
49 And shall begin to smite his fellowservants and to eat and drink with the drunken,
50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he is not looking for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,
51 And he shall cut him asunder and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
2 Kings 4
40 ... O you man of God, there is death in the pot ...
Proverbs 14:12
For there is a way which seemes right to a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death. ![[mad2]](graemlins/mad2.gif)
having or doing ...
love, Eden
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byfaith
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quote:
Originally posted by becauseHElives:
having or doing
This was addressing Michael Harrison's view of having or doing ....
my point was you can not have without doing.....
salvation received can only be proven by what is produce in actual practice physical demonstration!
a tree is know by it's fruit....
a person is born again for one reason....
to be conform into the image of Yahshua....
that image is one thing and only one thing....
a servant
the only fruit The Heavenly Father is looking for before He harvests a new creation is has this life taken on the nature of My Son, has this life the sap of love flowing in their branches....
quote from my original post )note the bold print part)
quote:
Work out your own salvation is a exhortation to the Church at Philippi to labour in obedience in the word to make sure that they truly have salvation and are not sloth in confirmation. The Greek word translated work is [katergazomai] meaning work to the fullest or to completion. Such work as this can only be brought about in Christ. God works in us to give us the will to do what needs to be done to bring about salvation. Note carefully the "context" in which this quote is, which often is completely ignored by many theologians who try and use this verse as a simi-works proof text:
I agree, this is something that has been on my heart for some time now.
I am very suspicious of proclaimed faith without the evidence, works,attitude, fruits of the Spirit.
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yahsway
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Good post Daniel! I agree with all you said. Be Blessed!
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The Beauty of Holiness777
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Another good post becauseHElives! ![[thumbsup2]](graemlins/thumbsup2.gif)
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In God I'am Complete.
I am a "Spiritual Being" living in a physical body.
{Prayer - a force that reaches people and places when we can't}
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oneinchrist
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This whole "having" or "doing" thing is getting so redundant. I think some of us are crossing paths, but not coming to a unified understanding of each others points. It sounds to me like BecauseHelives and Found in Him are echoing the James teaching "faith without works is dead". No one can dispute that, we know that. It is scriptural.
It seems that Michael and Eden are echoing the Paulian teaching "Its not I who live, but Christ who lives in Me. No one can dispute that either. It is scriptural.
"Faith without works is dead"(just like the body without the spirit) and "Its not I who live, but Christ who lives in Me"(His righteousness) are both true..............so what is there to argue about?
If we all are seeking to glorify Jesus in our lives and some prefer to say that "Jesus is doing the doing" and others say "We need to obey His voice"..........if the end result is towards the saving of souls........who the heck cares exactly how you word it?
Eden, I would like to adress one question that you asked...........do we have to walk uprightly(clean our lives up) before the Lord will help us? I believe that the answer to that question is NO, but, but, but I would say that we have to "allow ourselves to be set apart for Gods purpose" before He will help us do His will....."Yes, Jesus I will be your disciple no matter what the cost"....."I am willing to suffer and bear reproach for your Namesake".............You see, humbling ourselves before God is not just feeling shame for sin, but it is also being submissive. When the prodigal son came home he came home feeling ashamed of what he did and he was willing and ready to do whatever his father would have him do.
Acts 5:32 "And we are His witnesses to these things, and so also is the Holy Spirit whom God has given to those who obey Him." I contend that the use of the word "obey" in this declaration of Peter means "repent and believe by submitting to His Lordship".
After we have entered into the faith, I do believe that we should expect chastening if we resist God; whereas, on the other hand, increased responsiblity if we are following and obeying His leading. In other words, I do believe that there is reward for obedience.......but the type of reward I am talking about is spiritual gifts towards the adancement of Kingdom purpose.......not personal achievement ribbons or metals.
With love in Christ, Daniel
Posts: 1389 | From: Wind Lake, WI | Registered: May 2007
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Eden
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Found in Him wrote quote:
If we "have" we will "do"
But how can we "do" if we have been crucified with Christ on the cross?
Is it therefore not instead, If we "have Him", "He will do"?
Romans 7:18
For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) dwells no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I have not found.
Psalm 84:11
But the LORD God is a sun and shield: the LORD will give grace and glory: no good thing will He withhold from them who walk uprightly.
But then, "who are they who walk uprightly"?
Micah 6:8
He has shown you, O man, what is good, and what the LORD requires of you, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with Your God?
So apparently God does NOT do those 3 things FOR us. Is it not OUR TASK to "walk uprightly" by "doing justly" when the cashier made a mistake, or "to love mercy" and "to walk humbly with our God"?
At the same time, I think that any Christian who goes BEYOND crying out to God, "Lord, be merciful to me a sinner", can we do the 10 commandments by ourselves or at least with the Spirit of God?
Do we have to "walk uprightly FIRST" before the
LORD helps us?
Psalm 84:11b
... the LORD will give grace and glory: no good thing will He withhold from them who walk uprightly.
I think that after a person is saved, when the LORD sees that the saved person is "seeking after the LORD" in the Bible and in Christian books and in Christian music and the saved person is "now sorry for the sins he commits in his daily life", that must be the person that the LORD "gives grace and glory to, withholding NO GOOD THING from them who walk uprightly?
So Found in Him wrote quote:
If we "have" we will "do"
But how can we "do" if we have NO GOOD THING DWELLING IN US...except CHRIST IN US?
love, Eden
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Found in Him
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becausehelives, You wrote: So the scenario seems pretty clear. Paul was telling them that he would not be back, and that they should carry on in the faith that he had taught them from the scriptures just as they did when he was in Philippi. Continue to obey the scriptures when He is gone, as they did when He was present. Work out their own salvation through fear of God and continued obedience because he will not be there to lead. It is this fear and trembling which will bring them knowledge of salvation through the Word:
I agree with this.
Salvation is a gift and Jesus said true salvation will bear the fruit of obedience (John 14:21)(John 15:10) Continued obedience implies walking in the fear of The Lord. (2Co 7:1)(Hebrews 12:28–29)
Jesus pretty much summed up the having or doing...
If we "have" we will "do"
He said: “He who has My commandments and keeps them is the one who loves Me; and he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and will disclose Myself to him.”
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~To Him That is able to keep you from falling and to present you before His glorious presence without fault and with great joy...to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.~ Jude 24
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becauseHElives
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posted
having or doing
This was addressing Michael Harrison's view of having or doing ....
my point was you can not have without doing.....
salvation received can only be proven by what is produce in actual practice physical demonstration!
a tree is know by it's fruit....
a person is born again for one reason....
to be conform into the image of Yahshua....
that image is one thing and only one thing....
a servant
the only fruit The Heavenly Father is looking for before He harvests a new creation is has this life taken on the nature of My Son, has this life the sap of love flowing in their branches....
quote from my original post )note the bold print part)
quote:
Work out your own salvation is a exhortation to the Church at Philippi to labour in obedience in the word to make sure that they truly have salvation and are not sloth in confirmation. The Greek word translated work is [katergazomai] meaning work to the fullest or to completion. Such work as this can only be brought about in Christ. God works in us to give us the will to do what needs to be done to bring about salvation. Note carefully the "context" in which this quote is, which often is completely ignored by many theologians who try and use this verse as a simi-works proof text:
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
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Found in Him
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Hi Daniel,
Yes, I believe we both took different views that are both applicable. Salvation is a gift. We know that we cannot earn it, work to earn it, act good enough to obtain it, neither can we take it for granted. I was trying to cover the last part of that statement-- We cannot take it for granted.
Salvation cost Jesus a lot. I believe God The Father also remembers that cost. It is freely given to all who come to Him, but we have taken for granted Christ's purchase of this gift when one takes a carnal approach to living and it is dangerous.
There are many in the church today that think that they are alright with God and they are living a life of sin. Their fellow church members patting them on the back knowing the sin they live in. Why? There is no fear of God. This is why I wrote in length about the fear of God greatly being absent in the church today... The conviction from Godly fear that brings sorrow unto repentance. There is so much sin in the world that it is also accepted in the church as the norm.
For godly sorrow produces repentance leading to salvation, not to be regretted; .. (2 Cor. 7:9-10).
Paul in Philippians 2 was commending the Philippians for their obedience, He said that they had always obeyed in his presence. He then extorts them to "work out" (cultivate, carry out to the goal, and fully complete) their salvation, with fear and trembling in his absence. I think that is exactly what he meant-- with a fear of God that keeps one's path in the very center of God's will. The more we invite the Holy Spirit in and submit to God's leadership and authority, the more we realize that God is a Holy God and cannot look upon sin. The fear of The Lord is a precious thing, it is the beginning of wisdom of an Awesome God.
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~To Him That is able to keep you from falling and to present you before His glorious presence without fault and with great joy...to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.~ Jude 24
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oneinchrist
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Hi again Found in Him,
It appears that you and I just zeroed in on different parts of the same phrase. I zeroed more in on the "work out your own salvation" part which I compared with the passage "labor for the food which endures to everlasting life" and you zeroed in on the "with fear and trembling part".
It appears that neither of us are duped into thinking that Paul was saying that we somehow earn our salvation, but that what we need to be doing is examining our own hearts to see if they contain these elements of faith that God looks for.........are we being diligent to make our call and election sure? and do we live out our lives with a reverential awe of God and His word? I think these are good questions to be asking ourselves.
With love in Christ, Daniel
Posts: 1389 | From: Wind Lake, WI | Registered: May 2007
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Found in Him
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Thanks Daniel,
I thoroughly enjoyed and agreed with everything that becausehelives wrote concerning with fear and trembling. I agree with you that we labor and focus on eternal things, keeping our eyes fixed on Jesus.
The fear of The Lord is greatly lacking in our churches and among God's people and I feel it is greatly misunderstood. The fear of the Lord is needed for holiness in one's life. The bible say's without holiness, no one will see the Lord.
I was taught in church that the Fear of The Lord was only reverence for Him, but That is not all it is. Even as Paul indicated in Php 2:12, by combining "fear and trembling" The Greek word for "trembling" is "TROMOS" and means "a trembling or quaking with fear" Just as one would likely tremble in the presence of one who could take our life, so Jesus taught us to fear the Lord. A proper fear of the Lord includes.. "reverence and awe" And "being afraid to offend God in any way" A trembling and quaking if one knows they have offended God and have not obtained forgiveness!
Our God is a Holy God and is no ones partner in crime. No we're not perfect-- But He IS and the fear of God keeps conviction strong upon our lives.
I pray to Heaven that this fear of God grips the church once again and purifies the Church.
"Then had the churches rest throughout all Judaea and Galilee and Samaria, and were edified; and walking in the fear of the Lord, and in the comfort of the Holy Ghost, were multiplied." (Ac 9:31)
"God is greatly to be feared in the assembly of the saints, and to be had in reverence of all [them that are] about him." (Psalms 89:7)
Matthew 10:28
28 And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
"Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left [us] of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it. For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard [it]." (Hebrews 4:1-2)
"Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief." (Hebrews 4:11)
Proverbs 8:13
13 The fear of the Lord is to hate evil; Pride and arrogance and the evil way And the perverse mouth I hate.
Hebrews 10:30–31
30 For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord. And again, “The Lord will judge His people.” 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
"Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting
holiness in the fear of God." (2Co 7:1)
Hebrews 12:28–29
28 Therefore, since we are receiving a kingdom which cannot be shaken, let us have grace, by which we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear. 29 For our God is a consuming fire.
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~To Him That is able to keep you from falling and to present you before His glorious presence without fault and with great joy...to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.~ Jude 24
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oneinchrist
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Hi Found in Him,
Yes, it may be true that BecauseHelives cited Phillipians 2:12-16, but it was my understanding that his post seemed to center around the highly controversial "work out your own salvation with fear and trembling" part. That is the portion that I zeroed in on and attempted to adress. Since my bible gave direct reference to other passages, I relied on it as a tool in helping to better understand Pauls language use.
With love in Christ, Daniel
Posts: 1389 | From: Wind Lake, WI | Registered: May 2007
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Found in Him
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I think becausehelives was referring to Philippians 2:12-16
"Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure. Do all things without complaining and disputing, that you may become blameless and harmless, children of God without fault in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation, among whom you shine as lights in the world, holding fast the word of life, so that I may rejoice in the day of Christ that I have not run in vain or labored in vain."
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~To Him That is able to keep you from falling and to present you before His glorious presence without fault and with great joy...to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.~ Jude 24
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oneinchrist
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Hi BecauseHelives,
In my bible there is a reference to John 6:27 from the phrase "work out your own salvation with fear and trembling" in Phillipians.
John 6:27 Do not labor for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to everlasting life, which the Son of Man will give you, because God the Father has set His seal on Him.
and John 6:27 references Matthew 6:19-21 which states........
"Do not lay up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy and where thieves break in and steal; but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys and where thieves do not break in and steal. For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.
It appears to me that "work out your own salvation" does imply that we determine to set our hearts on what Jesus says is most important........on things of eternal significance.
With love in Christ, Daniel
Posts: 1389 | From: Wind Lake, WI | Registered: May 2007
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Found in Him
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Amen becausehelives.... Fear God and keep His commandments.
He that has My commandments, and keeps them, he it is that loves Me: and he that loves Me shall be loved of My Father, and I will love him, and will manifest Myself to him. - John 14:21
If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love. - John 15:10
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~To Him That is able to keep you from falling and to present you before His glorious presence without fault and with great joy...to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.~ Jude 24
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becauseHElives
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Work Out Your Own Salvation with Trembling and Fear
One of the questions which comes up quite often is, if we are indeed Saved by Grace, then what does Philippians mean when it says to work out your own salvation with trembling and fear?
Work out your own salvation is a exhortation to the Church at Philippi to labour in obedience in the word to make sure that they truly have salvation and are not sloth in confirmation. The Greek word translated work is [katergazomai] meaning work to the fullest or to completion. Such work as this can only be brought about in Christ. God works in us to give us the will to do what needs to be done to bring about salvation. Note carefully the "context" in which this quote is, which often is completely ignored by many theologians who try and use this verse as a simi-works proof text:
Philippians 2:12-13
* "Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
* For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. "
Notice that when Paul told them in his absence to work out their own salvation in trembling and fear (12), he also clearly told them in Verse 13 just how they would accomplish that. He says because it is God which worketh in you both to will and do of his good pleasure. And that Greek word translated do [energeo] is the exact same word translated worketh. The word means that God is the active one within you so that you will effectually work. So that when verse 12 says they will work (to the fullest), verse 13 lets us know explicitly that the effectual working unto salvation is by His actively moving us to do. It is not ourselves! That is what is meant by never forgetting the context. Here Paul is very plainly telling them that the work in them is not of them, but it is of God Himself. Not only to do (move us to work) but also to will (not free will, God's will) in us. And this is the part which most Theologians "choose" to ignore about the verse! But when we look at the whole of scripture, we see that Paul is exhorting them that as they have listened to and obeyed his teaching of the word when he was present with them, so they should now listen and be obedient to the word when he is no longer present, and not be slothful but work out their own salvation with trembling and fear. In other words, Paul's going away and they are on their own (so to speak) with the Word of God. They must now work without the leadership of Paul. They must be earnest, work out their salvation in the word without him. And it is God who will both will and do it in them.
In agreement with this is his encouragement to them to do it with trembling and fear. They are to read the scriptures and continue to obey them in the fear of God. Fear and trembling is not just incidental language. You see the difference between the Saved and the unsaved is that the unsaved have no real fear of God. Therefore they won't listen to God's Word nor obey what is written in His Holy canon. You can quote them God's Word "Word for word" and they'll retort that "that was just your interpretation" as if you were quoting your own words. The reason is, their conscience is seared and they have not the fear and trembling that true believers do. All throughout scripture when you read of God's manifestation to His Prophets of Old, all shook with fear and trembling before God. They all had that reverential fear of God. But in our day, the arrogance in high minded Christians, has many trying to make God their partner in crime. A super buddy who goes along just to winks at their sin. This is what having no fear of God is. They show this lack of respect every time they make God out to be a liar by denying His Word. By contrast, God says the evidence of a truly saved person is that they will keep, rather than discard the Word of God. For they are those who fear God and have reverence for His Holy Word. When Paul says with trembling and fear, it is this Godly fear that he is speaking of:
Psalms 34:9
* "O fear the LORD, ye his saints: for there is no want to them that fear him."
Psalms 61:5
* "For thou, O God, hast heard my vows: thou hast given me the heritage of those that fear thy name."
Psalms 103:17
* "But the mercy of the LORD is from everlasting to everlasting upon them that fear him, and his righteousness unto children's children;
And God contrasts this Godly fear with the wicked who have no fear of God and so transgress without worry about the consequences. It doesn't bother them anymore to contradict God because they are so use to doing it that their conscience is seared (1st Timothy 4:2). It's like having scar tissue on your body wherein you no longer have feeling there anymore. Someone may touch that particular spot and you may not feel it anymore. That may be a bad analogy, but you get my point. It is when you have the conscience wiped out so that it doesn't bother you anymore to deny God's Word, or even wrest it. That is when there is no fear of God.
Psalms 36:1
* "..The transgression of the wicked saith within my heart, that there is no fear of God before his eyes. "
Psalms 55:19
* "God shall hear, and afflict them, even he that abideth of old. Selah. Because they have no changes, therefore they fear not God. "
Romans 3:16-18
* "Destruction and misery are in their ways:
* And the way of peace have they not known:
* There is no fear of God before their eyes. "
That is the fear and trembling which Paul exhorts the Philippians to have that they will obey when he is not present. The fear which God says that the unsaved do not have.
Paul's presence didn't save them and his leaving won't save them, they are saved by the hearing of the Word of God. And Paul says they are to be a workman unto salvation. He's saying, don't be slothful. They should study and rightly divide (2 Timothy 2:15) the Word. Unlike pastors today who would likely tell them "you said the sinners prayer so you are saved". No, Paul tells them, as they obeyed the word when he was there, work out their own salvation (in the word) in fear and trembling when he's gone. Study as workman that they can "Rightly" divide the word of truth. i.e., it can't be divided seven different ways, there is only the right way to do it. Our salvation comes from the word and our work in the word comes from God. Faith cometh from Hearing, and Hearing by the Word of God. That is how we work out our own salvation. By getting into the Word in obedience, it will save us. If we are slothful in this, we haven't made our calling and election sure.
So the scenario seems pretty clear. Paul was telling them that he would not be back, and that they should carry on in the faith that he had taught them from the scriptures just as they did when he was in Philippi. Continue to obey the scriptures when He is gone, as they did when He was present. Work out their own salvation through fear of God and continued obedience because he will not be there to lead. It is this fear and trembling which will bring them knowledge of salvation through the Word:
Proverbs 1:7
* "The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction."
The same principle. The Believers obey and gain knowledge because they keep the Word of God. On the other hand the non-christian (as well as the unsaved who call themselves Christian) despise wisdom and instruction in "The Word". They will not work out their own salvation by gleaning from the Word, because they don't have God dwelling within them to will and to do. They will likely think it foolish to strictly obey what God says.
Proverbs 15:33
* "The fear of the LORD is the instruction of wisdom; and before honour is humility."
Pride makes a man look at God's Word saying that it is He that chooses and it's by His Will, not the will of man, and call that private interpretation. But it is honour (honesty) and humility "given of God" which causes one to receive that truth and "surrender" to whatever the scriptures say. That is how we work our our own salvation. Through receiving God's Word in reverential fear of God.
The phrase "Work out your own salvation" is not a declaration that we are either saved by our own works or that we have any part in helping Jesus Save us by our own efforts, rather it is an exhortation to the Church at Philippi (and indeed to us all) to labour in obedience in the word, in the reverential fear of God, to make sure by the Word that we truly have salvation. Make your calling and election sure by keeping the Word of God.
"By mercy and truth iniquity is purged: and by the fear of the LORD men depart from evil. -Proverbs 16:6"
-by Tony Warren [B][/B]
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
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