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Author
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Topic: Faithfulness doesn't save?
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Michael Harrison
Advanced Member
Member # 6801
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posted
Faithfulness doesn't save! Yet it is the doctrine of many that it absolutely does, and people live by it. Yet, never minding the New Testament, even in the Old we have verses like, "But the righteous shall live by his faith:" That from the New Berkley Version, translation of the Bible in Habakkuk 2:4.
I find it interesting that in the footnote of the same Bible concerning this verse we have this reference on the chosen method of translating the passage, which reads:
Some prefer "faithfulness" to "faith," but Paul [Rom 1:17 and Gal 3:11] quotes "faith."
Faithfulness is not a replacement for faith. It is not a precursor to faith. It is a byproduct of faith - if one has the initial faith. That comes from seeking. It comes from knowing. But the law of the flesh is to 'practice' faithfulness. However, as well meaning as it is, it is illicit. For it tries to accomplish, or 'earn'. One does not 'earn' what he already has.
Posts: 3273 | From: Charlotte N.C. | Registered: Sep 2007
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Michael Harrison
Advanced Member
Member # 6801
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posted
quote:
I don't get that, I'm not taking anything personal. I tend to agree with you that (in my words) we are too sinful to be any good to God and so we can either stumble on like this, or we can say, okay Jesus, since You are in me and You are the "waaaay smarter of us two, why don't You tell US what we should do next", and only THEN can it seem as if WE are being "Christlike" but it is in fact Jesus IN US who is, well, duh, being Christlike."
Jesus IS doing it, if you will let Him.
Posts: 3273 | From: Charlotte N.C. | Registered: Sep 2007
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Michael Harrison
Advanced Member
Member # 6801
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posted
Galatians 5:17
For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit lusts against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that you cannot do the things that YOU would like to do.
Musn't; Shouldn't; Don't have to (though there is a likelyhood everpresent)!
Posts: 3273 | From: Charlotte N.C. | Registered: Sep 2007
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Eden
unregistered
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posted
Michael Harrison also said, "... eden? If you get it, you realize it, and you are good. But consider how prolific Watchman Nee was. Did he stop writing it at only one book.[/quote]I've read several of his books. He has thus far helped me the most in my Christian walk.
MH, you continued: quote:
Moreover he {Nee} traveled around and spread the message (only he would not come to the USA.) I, by all means possible, say it every way possible, that some may come to understand.
I think the "trouble" with many Christians is, as was the "trouble" with me, that I still thought that "some parts of me were good enough for God to want to use", and Watchman Nee helped me see that there is "NO part of me good enough for God to want to use", except by general "vessel", He'd like to us that through His Son Jesus coming into me, and in effect POTENTIALLY, making me {but not me but my vessel) LOOK on the outside (and on the inside) LIKE a second Jesus and a third Jesus and a fourth Jesus, and so on, every Christian could potentially be "another Jesus".
God tries to get us to the point where we realize that we are SO sinful and SO filthy that WE agree with God that "there is nothing in us with which we may help God" and God has thrown it all on the cross of Jesus as a "dirty rag" that Jesus died for.
Only when we have come to that crying point, "O wretched man that I am, WHO shall deliver me from this body of death?"
And THEN the triumphant cry is, "JESUS IN ME, HE can live the life of God in me, because ONLY GOD can live the life of God in me and use this vessel for His glory.
But if any of us Christians still thinks, like King Saul before us, that there still is some good left in us with which we can help God, and we have NOT YET COME TO THE PLACE of seeing our own WRETCHEDNESS.
But once we see our own wretchedness, then WE WILL STOP TRYING TO HELP GOD and we say, Okay JESUS! Since YOU are in me, why don't YOU sit in the Driver's Seat and You be the driver!"
Then it is not I who live, but it is Christ who lives in me.
But with Christ in the Driver's Seat, we may be taking some sharp turns here and there where IIIII wasn't expecting it, and that's where faith comes in.
And no doubt sometimes I'll practically GRAB the wheel and say, "HERE! Let me do this!!!"
Galatians 5:17
For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit lusts against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that you cannot do the things that YOU would like to do. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
love, Eden
"He's coming again"
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Eden
unregistered
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posted
Michael Harrison wrote quote:
What's wrong eden? Are you maybe taking this a little too personal?
I don't get that, I'm not taking anything personal. I tend to agree with you that (in my words) we are too sinful to be any good to God and so we can either stumble on like this, or we can say, okay Jesus, since You are in me and You are the "waaaay smarter of us two, why don't You tell US what we should do next", and only THEN can it seem as if WE are being "Christlike" but it is in fact Jesus IN US who is, well, duh, being Christlike."
Isn't that what you are generally saying, Michael Harrison?
love, Eden
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Found in Him
Advanced Member
Member # 7596
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posted
precious it is!
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~To Him That is able to keep you from falling and to present you before His glorious presence without fault and with great joy...to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.~ Jude 24
Posts: 1503 | Registered: Jan 2009
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becauseHElives
Advanced Member
Member # 87
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posted
What can wash away my sin?
Nothing but the blood of Jesus;
What can make me whole again?
Nothing but the blood of Jesus.
Refrain
Oh! precious is the flow
That makes me white as snow;
No other fount I know,
Nothing but the blood of Jesus.
For my pardon, this I see,
Nothing but the blood of Jesus;
For my cleansing this my plea,
Nothing but the blood of Jesus.
Refrain
Nothing can for sin atone,
Nothing but the blood of Jesus;
Naught of good that I have done,
Nothing but the blood of Jesus.
Refrain
This is all my hope and peace,
Nothing but the blood of Jesus;
This is all my righteousness,
Nothing but the blood of Jesus.
Refrain
Now by this I’ll overcome—
Nothing but the blood of Jesus,
Now by this I’ll reach my home—
Nothing but the blood of Jesus.
Refrain
Glory! Glory! This I sing—
Nothing but the blood of Jesus,
All my praise for this I bring—
Nothing but the blood of Jesus.
Refrain
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
Posts: 4578 | From: Southeast Texas | Registered: Jun 2002
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Michael Harrison
Advanced Member
Member # 6801
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posted
What's wrong eden? Are you maybe taking this a little too personal? If you get it, you realize it, and you are good. But consider how prolific Watchman Nee was. Did he stop writing it at only one book. Moreover he traveled around and spread the message (only he would not come to the USA.) I by all means possible, say it every way possible, that some may come to understand.
Perhaps you shouldn't have said that last part, or the sentences preceeding it, particularly the #/!@*#%@ part. Cuz I couldn't understand it. ![[happyhappy]](graemlins/happyhappy.gif)
Posts: 3273 | From: Charlotte N.C. | Registered: Sep 2007
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Eden
unregistered
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posted
It is ironic to me, Michael Harrison, that I fancy myself as someone who at least understands SOMEWHAT where you are coming from:
To me, your main message has been that it is not ME who can do ANYTHING AT ALl to make myself LOOK GOOD to God. It is ONLY JESUS IN ME who can MAKE HIMSELF LOOK GOOD to God, AND to me.
Isn't that basically your message to us, Michael Harrison? At least that's been what I have been thinking?
But if it is, woe unto you, because you have done one "@#$%^&*" job of presenting that message. Although I will grant you it is a bit of a "rhema"; you either got the "rhema" or "you didn't". (I hesitate to say that last part.)
love, Eden
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Eden
unregistered
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posted
Subject: Faithfulness doesn't save?
dear Michael Harrison, I read this Topic of yours, and though I'm usually fairly confident of what you are saying in your Topics, this Topic of yours bamboozzled even me: quote:
Faithfulness doesn't save! Yet it is the doctrine of many that it absolutely does, and people live by it.
Huh? quote:
Yet, never minding the New Testament, even in the Old we have verses like, "But the righteous shall live by his faith:" That from the New Berkley Version, translation of the Bible in Habakkuk 2:4.
Huh? Hug? quote:
I find it interesting that in the footnote of the same Bible concerning this verse we have this reference on the chosen method of translating the passage, which reads:
Some prefer "faithfulness" to "faith," but Paul [Rom 1:17 and Gal 3:11] quotes "faith."
So if we instead were to read that the "Righteous shall live by his faithfulness," scores will be pleased with that statement.
Huh? Hug? quote:
But this group of translators agree that that is incorrect. And the New Testament completely agrees. One is not saved by 'faithfulness'. For faithfulness, if it is not a byproduct of faith, if it is not a fruit of faith, is a work, quite simply. And many a person without faith, is faithful (in the one's opinion).
Hug? Huh? quote:
Rather, what they mistake for faith is the notion that self-determination will be approved.
Huh? Self-determination will be approved? I think, first of all, that I have faith that Jesus died for me in my place, and now that I have this faith in Jesus's work, I am saved, provided that, I continue having this "faithfulness" in Jesus as long as I live, meaning that "I have this faith in Jesus unto my death".
Uhh, what did you mean exactly by your Topic, Michael H., Faithfulness doesn't save?
love, Eden
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Found in Him
Advanced Member
Member # 7596
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Michael Harrison:
Some people mistake 'simplicity' for confusion. It is because 'simple' is too easy, and they want something more intellectually stimulating so they can feel that they 'contributed' something.
Michael Harrison,
Try looking into a mirror and repeating those very words to yourself, for they are your very problem. You have said it for yourself defining your very problem.
You need to subject your self under Holy Spirit filled men that can impart truth to you.
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~To Him That is able to keep you from falling and to present you before His glorious presence without fault and with great joy...to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.~ Jude 24
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oneinchrist
Advanced Member
Member # 6532
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posted
Michael,
The words faith and faithfullness do share some similarity in meaning throughout much of the bible. They both share the element of "loyalty towards a person or thing; allegiance".
Michael, please dont tell me that you think that a man can be saved without loyalty/allegiance towards Jesus. I would definitely disagree with you on that. Jesus states that we are sanctified by faith in Him.........that surely would imply loyalty/allegiance.
With love in Christ, Daniel
Posts: 1389 | From: Wind Lake, WI | Registered: May 2007
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Michael Harrison
Advanced Member
Member # 6801
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posted
Some people mistake 'simplicity' for confusion. It is because 'simple' is too easy, and they want something more intellectually stimulating so they can feel that they 'contributed' something.
Posts: 3273 | From: Charlotte N.C. | Registered: Sep 2007
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Found in Him
Advanced Member
Member # 7596
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posted
CONFUSION!
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~To Him That is able to keep you from falling and to present you before His glorious presence without fault and with great joy...to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.~ Jude 24
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Michael Harrison
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Member # 6801
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posted
No man or woman who doesn't take Him by the hand and look to HIS face will understand what HE wants for them to. And these will continue to do his or her 'own' thing, in HIS name, according to their best effort in understanding. Obedience is a fruit. It can be said that it is a gift! For the empowerment to obey comes from the one who 'enables' one to obey. But I understand that there are those who would 'brag' about their obedience as though 'they' accomplish it.
But my own post says:
quote:
Faithfulness, if it is not a byproduct of faith, if it is not a fruit of faith, is a work, quite simply.
It is not rocket science, yet people refuse to get it. So, I would like to restate what you said, differently:
TRUE children of God receive from HIM the desire to 'HAVE' His will done in their life. It takes obedience to 'faith' for this to be accomplished. The rest 'do' the faithfulness part, but lack true faith which bears the fruit.
It truly is not rocket science.
Posts: 3273 | From: Charlotte N.C. | Registered: Sep 2007
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Found in Him
Advanced Member
Member # 7596
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posted
TRUE children of God desire to DO what pleases Him!
Takes faith and OBEDIENCE to accomplish this.
It's NOT rocket science.
He said to be FAITHFUL.
Some like to reject that part of the package!
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~To Him That is able to keep you from falling and to present you before His glorious presence without fault and with great joy...to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.~ Jude 24
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Michael Harrison
Advanced Member
Member # 6801
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posted
![[Bible]](graemlins/bible.gif)
Faithfulness doesn't save! Yet it is the doctrine of many that it absolutely does, and people live by it. Yet, never minding the New Testament, even in the Old we have verses like, "But the righteous shall live by his faith:" That from the New Berkley Version, translation of the Bible in Habakkuk 2:4.
I find it interesting that in the footnote of the same Bible concerning this verse we have this reference on the chosen method of translating the passage, which reads:
Some prefer "faithfulness" to "faith," but Paul [Rom 1:17 and Gal 3:11] quotes "faith."
So if we instead were to read that the "Righteous shall live by his faithfulness," scores will be pleased with that statement. But this group of translators agree that that is incorrect. And the New Testament completely agrees. One is not saved by 'faithfulness'. For faithfulness, if it is not a byproduct of faith, if it is not a fruit of faith, is a work, quite simply. And many a person without faith, is faithful (in the one's opinion). Rather, what they mistake for faith is the notion that self-determination will be approved.
Posts: 3273 | From: Charlotte N.C. | Registered: Sep 2007
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