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Author
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Topic: There is one message: Be one with Christ!
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Michael Harrison
Advanced Member
Member # 6801
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posted
See, one set of footsteps!
quote:
Luke 14:25-33 (Phi) "If anyone comes to me without 'hating' his father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, and even his own life, he cannot be a disciple of mine. The man who will not take up his cross and follow in my footsteps cannot be my disciple. If any of you wanted to build a tower, wouldn't he first sit down and work out the cost of it, to see if he can afford to finish it? Otherwise, when he has laid the foundation and found himself unable to complete the building, everyone who sees it will begin to jeer at him, saying, 'This is the man who started to build a tower but couldn't finish it!'... So it is with you; only the man who says good-bye to his possessions can be my disciple."
What is God after? HE wants you to see what HE means by what HE says. And what is Jesus thinking when HE says to "follow" in HIS footsteps? For the carnal mind renders it one way (interpretation according to satan essentially), and the spiritual mind renders it according to HIS truth. But just because one has received the Spirit doesn’t mean that the carnal mind is dead! It is not dead, unless it is under the Cross. Then one understands. But it refuses by way of unbelief, or incomplete belief in the finished work to comprehend the work of the Cross; for the tendency is to ‘love‘ one‘s life rather than lay it down. So it is therefore ignorant, and cannot functionally know Him (his thoughts, feelings and desires), not having met the condition. And it therefore determines according to one's 'best estimate' the meaning. And best estimate thinks only of 'doing'. And doing thinks is must mimic, or imitate, kinda like 'monkey see, monkey do'.
Anybody can 'do' that, even an unsaved person, or a cult. But Jesus said "Not everyone who says Lord, Lord, will enter into the Kingdom." Monkey 'see', monkey 'do' will not cut it. For it is guessing, not knowing. And is it not guessing what HE means, when HE says follow, or crucify, or take-up, to just fill in the blank with some activity? For one typically expects that he can look at the word, and determine 'what' Jesus did, and go ‘do’ it. But, as I said, one cannot imitate Christ. For it is just that. It is imitation. And imitation is 'wood, hay and stubble'. Amen! There is no 'LIFE' in imitation, only a good feeling as though one accomplishes something 'for' Him. (But Jesus wants to go with you. How can HE when the person will not 'join up'.)
So, when one looks at the word, he wants, according to zeal of serving, to 'build' a tower. Jesus plainly said, that "he cannot." Jesus talks about 'considering the cost' and says that if one cannot finish it, he needn't start. But one cannot finish it. He needn't try. Jesus however, 'finished' it. It is DONE! That changes everything.
So again on that same note, if one would 'build' a tower, he must consider the cost. Upon discovering that he cannot 'do' it, he still gets to understand that if he is willing to surrender himself (the cost), the 'builder' of the tower will accomplish for him, what he could not accomplish by any amount of wanting, purposing, willingness or effort. You see, it is a parable. But alas, no one gets it. Everyone wants to use his own carnal understanding to try to understand the spiritual, and teach others to do the same. He wants to ‘go do’ when Jesus wants him to ‘come, know’.
1Co 2:14 But the natural man [the guy who is supposed to be under the Cross] receiveth not [he simply does not understand] the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
That is, the naturalness, or natural nature of the believer cannot understand. IT MUST DIE! (For it actually stands in the way. This is why Paul said that he must "cast down imaginations." The natural man survives by the imagination of his heart.)
1Co 2:11 For what man knows the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
The man must have the understanding of the Spirit of God, and not lean to his 'spirit of man' understanding.
Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
For death means to be separate from HIm in 'thought, and deed'. Who might this mean except the 'believer'? It means that he is unproductive, because...
Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
Though it tries! So it must be broken. In other words, one must, by faith, go under the Cross, that "The mind of Christ," may live in the place where one once thought carnally, where one by his own best effort, drew his conclusions as best he could. Yet what he accomplished in drawing conclusions, was he 'rationalized' the word so that it would fit his understanding (which is prevalent). But in so doing, he changed the meaning from what it meant in the Spirit, by Christ, to what he could understand in a worldly sense. You see, best effort falls short of HIS glory.
1Co 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might [actually] know [and understand] the things that are freely given to us of God.
1Co 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth [carnal mindedness], but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; [for if we are broken from the flesh, we are then, and not until then] comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
But Jesus 'did it' already. So when HE says 'do', He is telling you to have, to walk in what HE has already done. And your doing then amounts to receiving the finished work, which happens by the investment of faith. And the faith then produces fruit. And fruit is the manifestation of the Spirit, evidence one is walking in oneness with Him, and HIS purpose. And HE is the Vine, and you are the branch.
And while we are at it here, what did you ever 'do'? After all, did you 'graft' yourself into the Vine?
Luk 12:26 If ye then are not able to 'do' that thing which is least, why take ye thought for the rest?
Show me someone who 'grafted' him or herself into the Vine? How then did one become grafted in? He or she 'believed' in the one who is able to 'do' the 'graft' into the Vine. (As ye have received the Lord Jesus Christ, so walk ye in Him Col 2:6) But I'll show you 20 million who think they had something to 'do' with grafting themself in. (Talk about satan's understanding).
And one might eventually consent that he or she was not grafted in by what he or she 'did'. Yet, he or she will insist it is what they 'do' thereafter that matters.
"Oh foolish Galations, who hath bewitched you that you should not believe the truth. Having begun in the Spirit [not by what you 'did'] are you now made perfect in the [by the self-effort, works of what you do] the flesh?
Posts: 3273 | From: Charlotte N.C. | Registered: Sep 2007
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Eden
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Hi, becauseHElives, you wrote quote:
The Death Sentence
Gal 5:24 (Jer) You cannot belong to Christ Jesus unless you crucify all self-indulgent passions and desires.
Gal 5:24 (TEB) And those who belong to Christ Jesus have put to death their human nature, with all its passions and desires.
1 Pet 2:24a (Phi) And he personally bore our sins in his own body on the cross, so that we might be dead to sin and be alive to all that is good.
I know that in the past you have said that my "theology stinks" (so feel free if you need to say that again), but if I may, the above verses could also be interpreted as:
Gal 5:24 (Jer) You cannot belong to Christ Jesus unless you crucify all self-indulgent passions and desires.
Okay, what if a Christian says, "God has crucified my old man on the cross with Jesus" (Romans 6:6), and so WHEN I realize that in God's eyes, "I am already dead", so as a Christian I "cease from his own works" (Hebrews 4:10), and so it is when I led "Christ in me live my life instead of me as the 'treasure inside my vessel', then also I HAVE CRUCIFIED MY PASSIONS AND DESIRES because I am no longer exercising MY OWN PASSIONS, now that I am dead.
Instead, what is happening now is "Jesus's desires and passions in me", right?
So, becauseHElives, you also added: quote:
1 Pet 2:24a (Phi) And he personally bore our sins in his own body on the cross, so that we might be dead to sin and be alive to all that is good.
Yes, we will be alive to all that is good when Jesus IN US does all the doing instead of us, right? And how do we do that? By believing, first of all, that He is IN US, and secondly by trusting that Jesus in US can do a FAR BETTER job of operating us than if we tried it ourselves, right?
love, Eden
"Jesus, Our Redeemer, Our blessed Lord and Savior"
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becauseHElives
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quote:
"take up the Cross,"
Michael Harrison you did to this verse what Satan does to all scripture, you miss quoted it....
read closely Michael....
Mark 8:34-35 (NIV) Then he called the crowd to him along with his disciples and said, "If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross and follow me. For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for me and for the gospel will save it."
"take up his cross"
reads the same in .....
Luke 9:23-24 (NIV) Then he said to them all: "If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me. For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for me will save it."
and
Mat 10:38 (NIV) ... anyone who does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me.
NIV Study Notes: "The picture is of a man, already condemned, required to carry the beam of his own cross to the place of execution. Disciples from Galilee knew what this meant, for hundreds of men had been executed by this means in their region."
Are We Really Following Christ?
# The modern equivalent would be to walk down a hallway toward an electric chair. Death is the destiny, and we are in a grim death processional. At least we are not first and, hopefully, we are not alone. If we "deny ourselves", and commit ourselves to death, we can no longer place any hope in this world. By "taking up our cross", it is as if all our natural passions and desires are doomed.
Luke 14:25-33 (Phi) "If anyone comes to me without 'hating' his father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, and even his own life, he cannot be a disciple of mine. The man who will not take up his cross and follow in my footsteps cannot be my disciple. If any of you wanted to build a tower, wouldn't he first sit down and work out the cost of it, to see if he can afford to finish it? Otherwise, when he has laid the foundation and found himself unable to complete the building, everyone who sees it will begin to jeer at him, saying, 'This is the man who started to build a tower but couldn't finish it!'... So it is with you; only the man who says good-bye to his possessions can be my disciple."
# A.W. Tozer: "Among the plastic saints of our times, Jesus has to do all the dying, and all we want to hear is another sermon about his dying."
The Death Sentence
Gal 5:24 (Jer) You cannot belong to Christ Jesus unless you crucify all self-indulgent passions and desires.
Gal 5:24 (TEB) And those who belong to Christ Jesus have put to death their human nature, with all its passions and desires.
1 Pet 2:24a (Phi) And he personally bore our sins in his own body on the cross, so that we might be dead to sin and be alive to all that is good.
Consider Yourself Dead
# T. Austin-Sparks: "We have not to die; we are dead. What we have to do is to accept our death... [In] baptism... we simply step in there and say, 'That position which God has settled with reference to me is the one which I now accept, and I testify here in this way to the fact that I have accepted God's position for me, namely, that in the Cross I have been brought to an end.'"
Col 3:3-7 (Phi) For, as far as this world is concerned, you are already dead, and your true life is a hidden one in God, through Christ. One day, Christ who is your life, will show himself openly, and you will all share in that magnificent revelation. Consider yourselves dead to worldly contacts: have nothing to do with sexual immorality, dirty mindedness, uncontrolled passion, evil desire, and the lusts for other people's goods, which amounts to idolatry. It is because of these very things that the holy anger of God falls upon those who refuse to obey him. And never forget that you had your part in those dreadful things when you lived that old life.
Rom 6:11a (KJV) Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead...
Rom 6:11a (TEB) Think of yourselves as dead to sin.
Rom 6:11 (NIV) In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus.
Rom 6:11-14 (Phi) In the same way, look upon yourselves as dead to the appeal and power of sin but alive to God through Christ Jesus our Lord. Do not, then, allow sin to establish any power over your mortal bodies in making you give way to its lusts. Nor hand over your bodily parts to be, as it were, weapons of evil for the devil's purpose. But, like men rescued from certain death, put yourselves in God's hands as weapons of good for his own purposes. For sin can never be your master; you are no longer living under the law, but under grace.
Rom 7:4-6 (Phi) So, my brothers, the death of Christ on the cross has made you "dead" to the claims of the Law, and you are free to give yourselves... to another, the one who was raised from the dead [Christ], that we may be productive for God. While we were "in the flesh", the Law stimulated our sinful passions and so worked in our nature that we became productive--for death! But now that we stand clear of the Law, the claims which existed are dissolved by our "death", and we are free to serve God, not in the old obedience to the letter of the Law, but in a new way, in the Spirit.
Rom 8:12-13 (NEB) It follows, my friends, that our lower nature has no claim upon us; we are not obligated to live on that level. If you do so, you must die. But if by the Spirit you put to death all the base pursuits of the body, then you will live.
Death To Self is NOT Optional for Christians
Jn 12:24 (NIV) "I tell you the truth, unless a kernel of wheat falls to the ground and dies, it remains only a single seed. But if it dies, it produces many seeds. The man who loves his life will lose it, while the man who hates his life in this world will keep it for eternal life."
Rom 12:1-2 (Phi) With eyes wide open to the mercies of God, I beg you, my brothers, as an act of intelligent worship, to give him your bodies, as a living sacrifice, consecrated to him and acceptable by him. Don't let the world around you squeeze you into its own mold, but let God remake you so that your whole attitude of mind is changed.
# T. Austin-Sparks: "The unalterable basis of an open heaven is a grave, and a crisis at which you come to an end of your own self-life. It is the crisis of real experiential identification with Christ in His death."
Rom 6:2-4 (Phi) We, who have died to sin--how could we live in sin a moment longer? Have you forgotten that all of us who were baptized into Jesus Christ were, by that very action, sharing in his death? We were dead and buried with him in baptism, so that just as he was raised from the dead by that splendid revelation of the Father's power, so we too might rise to life on a new plane altogether.
Gal 6:14 (Phi) Yet God forbid that I should boast about anything or anybody except the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, which means that the world is dead to me and I am a dead man to the world.
"Dead Men"
# Let the appeal of sin strike you like it would a corpse.
Rom 6:5-7 (Phi) If we have, as it were, shared his death, we shall also share in his resurrection. Let us never forget that our old selves died with him on the cross that the tyranny of sin over us might be broken, for a dead man can safely be said to be free from the power of sin.
Rom 6:8-10 (Phi) And if we were dead men with Christ we can believe that we will also be men alive with him. We can be sure that the risen Christ never dies again; death's power to master him is finished. He died, because of sin, once; he lives for God forever.
Rom 6:11 (LB) So look upon your old sin nature as dead and unresponsive to sin, and instead be alive to God, alert to him, through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Life After Death
Col 2:12,14,20 (Jer) You have been buried with him, when you were baptized; and by baptism, too, you have been raised up with him through your belief in the power of God who raised him from the dead... He has overridden the Law and canceled every record of the debt that we had to pay; he has done away with it by nailing it to the cross... If you really died with Christ to the principles of this world, why do you still let rules dictate to you, as though you were still living in the world?
2 Tim 2:11 (Phi) I rely on this saying: "If we died with him we shall also live with him."
2 Cor 5:15,17 (Phi) We look at it like this: if one died for all men, then, in a sense, they all died, and his purpose in dying for them is that their lives should now be no longer lived for themselves but for him who died and was raised to life for them... For if a man is in Christ he becomes a new person altogether; the past is finished and gone, everything has become fresh and new.
Titus 2:11 (NIV) For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men. It teaches us to say "No" to ungodliness and worldly passions and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age.
Eph 4:22-25 (TEB) So get rid of your old self, which made you live as you used to, the old self that was being destroyed by its deceitful desires. Your hearts and minds must be made completely new. You must put on the new self, which is created in God's likeness and reveals itself in the true life that is upright and holy. No more lying, then! Everyone must tell the truth.
Gal 2:19-20 (Phi) For under the Law I "died", and I am dead to the Law's demands so that I may live for God. I died on the cross with Christ. And my present life is not that of the old "I", but the living Christ within me. The bodily life I now live I live believing in the Son of God who loved me and sacrificed himself for me.
Col 3:1 (NIV) Since, then, you have been raised with Christ, set your hearts on things above.
#
Counting The Cost, By C.S. Lewis:
"The terrible thing, the almost impossible thing, is to hand over your whole self--all your wishes and precautions--to Christ.
"Christ says 'Give me All. I don't want so much of your time and so much of your money and so much of your work: I want You. I have not come to torment your natural self, but to kill it. No half measures are any good. I don't want to cut off a branch here and a branch there, I want to have the whole tree down. I don't want to drill the tooth, or crown it, or stop it, but to have it out. Hand over the whole natural self, all the desires which you think innocent as well as the ones you think wicked--the whole outfit. I will give you a new self instead. In fact, I will give you Myself: My own will shall become yours.'...
"When I was a child I often had toothache, and I knew that if I went to my mother she would give me something which would deaden the pain for that night and let me get to sleep. But I did not go to my mother--at least not till the pain became very bad. And the reason I did not go was this. I did not doubt she would give me the aspirin; but I knew she would also do something else. I could not get what I wanted out of her without getting something more, which I did not want. I wanted immediate relief from pain, but I could not get it without having my teeth set permanently right. And I knew those dentists; I knew they started fiddling about with all sorts of other teeth which had not yet begun to ache. They would not let sleeping dogs lie. If you gave them an inch they would take a mile.
"Now, if I may put it that way, our Lord is like the dentists. If you give Him an inch, He will take a mile. Dozens of people go to Him to be cured of some one particular sin which they are ashamed of... or which is obviously spoiling daily life (like bad temper or drunkenness). Well, He will cure it alright: but He will not stop there. That may be all you ask; but if once you call Him in, He will give you the full treatment. That is why He warned people to 'count the cost' before becoming Christians. 'Make no mistake,' He says, 'If you let me, I will make you perfect. The moment you put yourself in My hands, that is what you are in for. Nothing less or other than that.'
"'Whatever suffering it may cost you in your earthly life... whatever it cost Me, I will never rest, nor let you rest, until you are literally perfect--until my Father can say without reservation that He is well pleased with you, as He said He was well pleased with me. This I can do and will do. But I will not do anything less.'
"The goal toward which He is beginning to guide you is absolute perfection; and no power in the whole universe, except you yourself, can prevent Him from taking you to that goal. That is what you are in for. And it is very important to realize that. If we do not, then we are very likely to start pulling back and resisting Him after a certain point. I think that many of us, when Christ has enabled us to overcome one or two sins that were an obvious nuisance, are inclined to feel (though we do not put it into words) that we are now good enough. He has done all we wanted Him to do. And we should be obliged if He would now leave us alone.
"But this is the fatal mistake... The question is not what we intended ourselves to be, but what He intended us to be when He made us....
"Imagine yourself as a living house. God comes in to rebuild that house. At first, perhaps you can understand what He is doing. He is getting the drains right and stopping the leaks in the roof and so on: you know that those jobs needed doing and so you are not surprised. But presently he starts knocking the house about in a way that hurts abominably and does not seem to make sense. What on earth is He up to? The explanation is that He is building quite a different house from the one you thought of--throwing out a new wing here, putting on an extra floor there, running up towers, making courtyards. You thought you were going to be made into a decent little cottage: but He is building a palace. He intends to come and live in it Himself!"
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
Posts: 4578 | From: Southeast Texas | Registered: Jun 2002
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Michael Harrison
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Well:
quote:
But look, Michael Harrison, whose feet are these? My feet or Jesus's feet? They are MY feet, right? (I mean, "LOOK at them!") LOL
So who is walking in the sand, me or Jesus? Who is using my body, me or Jesus?
Dear Michael Harrison, there is one issue here that is really important to me and I am thankful that you are who you are because I can "bounce this off you".
Michael Harrison, in your opiion, WHO is operating this body once we realized that we have been "crucified with Christ" and "it is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me".
Essentially they are as HIS feet. Are you not bought with a price? And who is operating the body? It depends upon whether one is sold out or not. Keep this in mind, we have, until we finish the race, a free will. So there are two possibilities: either you are operating by your free will (doing the Cain thang), or your free will has entrusted HIM totally, in which case, HE moves you by HIS desire. Do you cooperate? Certainly - by 'having'! (Look at it as 'having' HIS will done in your life.)
There is something about this free will thing that reveals the true character of God. HE will not 'overrule' us. HE does not make us. That is not the nature of HIS Spirit. But if we are yielded, HIS desire in us, essentially, fills the sails, and HE enables HIS will to be done with our participation (of faith [having]). HIS Grace enables us to step in His steps, or where HE steps. But our will, our 'rudder', (thanks wildb, I knew you would appreciate that one), can shipwreck HIS intentions. So our will (our rudder) must learn to 'let' Him guide, to trust that HE is. Just consider it as though HIS hand is on our hand, on the rudder. HE is not expecting us to steer. But as our will is yielded, HE steers if we do not "interfere."
But one can look too closely at all of this and it will become muddy. The goal rather is to let HIS will be done. It takes an act of 'your' will for this to happen. Then believe that it is being done, and HE is doing it. He is quite capable. He is greater than our doubts. Simply say, "I DO," like in a marriage, and live in joy.
Amen!
Posts: 3273 | From: Charlotte N.C. | Registered: Sep 2007
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Eden
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Michael Harrison wrote quote:
And "take up the Cross," means 'not to live!' While people carnally assign to this the meaning that they must pickup 150 pounds of splintery burden, it is not what Jesus means. It means that you are not in the way of HIS living. In fact, HE died on the Cross so that we would not have to suffer the pain and humiliation! That is why HE allows us, by faith, to die. In other words, our confidence is placed in His dying on the Cross. It is called faith. In place of it, when we 'have' this faith, we have HIS LIFE! It is a gift far and away too good to be true!
So it is not our 'dragging' a woodpile behind us. In fact, that offends Him, and the work HE did on the Cross.
Overall I liked this post.
As for this part: "In other words, our confidence is placed in His dying on the Cross."
My confidence is also placed in ME dying on the cross, for "we are crucifed with Christ", not in some theoretical way, but ON THE SAME DAY that Jesus was crucfied with Christ.
So I have confidence in "His dying on the cross" but I also have confidence in "Me dying on the cross".
But overall, I know what you are trying to convey.
love, Eden
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Eden
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Eden had written: quote:
Yes. Only MY footprints should be in the sand.
And Michael Harrison answered quote:
No eden! You only 'think' those are your footprints, because it is the only thing that makes sense to you. That is carnal minded. (no meanness intended.)
As for the "no meanness intended", I understand what you are saying; not a problem.
But look, Michael Harrison, whose feet are these? My feet or Jesus's feet? They are MY feet, right? (I mean, "LOOK at them!") LOL
So who is walking in the sand, me or Jesus? Who is using my body, me or Jesus?
Dear Michael Harrison, there is one issue here that is really important to me and I am thankful that you are who you are because I can "bounce this off you".
Michael Harrison, in your opiion, WHO is operating this body once we realized that we have been "crucified with Christ" and "it is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me".
So it is your opinion that Jesus TAKES OVER OUR ENTIRE BODY on our behalf, and we basically "sit back and go along for the ride trusting that He knows what He is doing", or
Am I still in charge of this body and Jesus guides me by way of the Holy Spirit as to what I should do next, as in "He guides my steps"?
I think that is a very important distinction, so could you explain which of these two ways you think it is, or perhaps it is a third way...
thanks, Eden
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Michael Harrison
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And "take up the Cross," means 'not to live!' While people carnally assign to this the meaning that they must pickup 150 pounds of splintery burden, it is not what Jesus means. It means that you are not in the way of HIS living. In fact, HE died on the Cross so that we would not have to suffer the pain and humiliation! That is why HE allows us, by faith, to die. In other words, our confidence is placed in His dying on the Cross. It is called faith. In place of it, when we 'have' this faith, we have HIS LIFE! It is a gift far and away too good to be true!
So it is not our 'dragging' a woodpile behind us. In fact, that offends Him, and the work HE did on the Cross.
Posts: 3273 | From: Charlotte N.C. | Registered: Sep 2007
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Michael Harrison
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foundNM, it is 'easy'. Here is the verse:
Mat 11:30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.
At the same time it is not easy:
Php 4:12 I know both how to be abased, and I know how to abound: every where and in all things I am instructed both to be full and to be hungry, both to abound and to suffer need.
But HE is our provider. He is our Grace. He is our LIFE, therefore:
Rom 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
But religiosity is a work of 'EFFORT'. Therefore it is 'SIN'.
Posts: 3273 | From: Charlotte N.C. | Registered: Sep 2007
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Michael Harrison
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quote:
Yes. Only MY footprints should be in the sand:
No eden! You only 'think' those are your footprints, because it is the only thing that makes sense to you. That is carnal minded. (no meanness intended.)
Posts: 3273 | From: Charlotte N.C. | Registered: Sep 2007
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Found in Him
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Hi Eden,
I just read this this morning and it fit's well into what we have been talking about on this post.
The Cost of Following Jesus
July 30, 2007 — Mike Ratliff
Jesus said to him, “No one who puts his hand to the plow and looks back is fit for the kingdom of God.” (Luke 9:62 ESV)
One of the most tragic aspects of the growing apostasy of the Church, with its roots in Pelagianism and Semi-Pelagianism, is the viewing of salvation as “easy” or something that can be planned or manipulated by men. Along with this, those who are its proponents must necessarily view God as somewhat less than Sovereign. They also do not teach that those who come to Jesus must necessarily become subject to the Lordship of Christ. What did Jesus say about this?
And he strictly charged and commanded them to tell this to no one, saying, “The Son of Man must suffer many things and be rejected by the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and on the third day be raised.” And he said to all, “If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me. For whoever would save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for my sake will save it. For what does it profit a man if he gains the whole world and loses or forfeits himself? For whoever is ashamed of me and of my words, of him will the Son of Man be ashamed when he comes in his glory and the glory of the Father and of the holy angels. (Luke 9:21-26 ESV)
Our salvation was costly to our Lord. First He had to become a Man, live a perfect, sinless life, suffer many things, be rejected by the elders and chief priests and scribes, be killed by crucifixion, and on the third day be raised from the dead. After telling His disciples this, He then tells them that all who follow Him as His disciples must deny themselves, take up their own cross daily and follow Him.
The word “come” from v23 is in Aorist tense, Infinitive mood, and Active voice. This means that the coming after Jesus is a punctiliar action. It is done once and it is done. Interestingly, the word “deny” from the same verse is Aorist tense, Imperative mood, and Passive voice. This means that it is a command to do something immediately, at that very moment. The word “take up” is also in Aorist, Imperative, but the voice is Active. Again, this is a command for something to be done immediately. The word “daily” is actually two Greek words that when put together this way simply means “every day.” However, the word “follow” that our Lord used in this verse refers to going with another within a spiritual or moral relationship in obedience and service. It does not mean a temporary or occasional relationship or one that can be terminated. This is a permanent relationship. The verb structure here is Present tense, Imperative mood, and Active voice. This means that this is a command by our Lord to His disciples to follow Him with continuous or repeated action.
I believe that our Lord is describing here what those whom He saves will actually do. They will come to Him once, and never leave. They will take up their crosses and deny themselves everyday. They will also be marked by their faithfulness. They will follow their lord continually. This does not mean they are perfect or that they don’t stumble and fall, but those who are genuine will repent and move forward with their Lord.. All of these verbs except “come” are commands. Those who come to Jesus obey His commands because He is Lord. Those who are genuine believers lose their lives by dying to self for Jesus sake. Those that do this have eternal life. Those who want a relationship with our Lord that they can walk away from when it is inconvenient are actually ashamed of the Son of Man. They show their disingenuousness by doing this. Since they have no part with our Lord they also will forfeit themselves eternally.
As they were going along the road, someone said to him, “I will follow you wherever you go.” And Jesus said to him, “Foxes have holes, and birds of the air have nests, but the Son of Man has nowhere to lay his head.” To another he said, “Follow me.” But he said, “Lord, let me first go and bury my father.” And Jesus said to him, “Leave the dead to bury their own dead. But as for you, go and proclaim the kingdom of God.” Yet another said, “I will follow you, Lord, but let me first say farewell to those at my home.” Jesus said to him, “No one who puts his hand to the plow and looks back is fit for the kingdom of God.” (Luke 9:57-62 ESV)
In this passage our Lord shows us that the “coming to Jesus” that is punctiliar, once and done, is not something that can be done casually. It can’t be conditional or on the terms of the person. It is unconditional and on our Lord’s terms. Those who are truly saved come to Him and are New Creations who do not look back to the world or anything else as more desirable than eternal life with Him.
“Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few. (Matthew 7:13-14 ESV)
I remember when I was about 8 or 9 that our church bulletin one Sunday Morning had a picture on the front showing a road with an innumerable number of people on it. It divided into two roads, one narrow and the other broad. The broad way had saloons and movie houses and mansions and all sorts of worldly things on it. Most people went that way. The other way was called the Narrow Way and had churches lining both sides of it. Only a few went that way. That picture has stuck with me for nearly 50 years now. However, I believe that it is not entirely accurate. I contend that there are many people who think they are on the narrow way that leads to life because they are religious. However, they have been sold a bill of goods. Jesus said that the way that leads to life is hard and the gate to it is narrow and that few find it. The description He gave us earlier about denying self, taking up our crosses and following Him as a way of life is this narrow way that few find.
I’m sure we all know someone who thinks that he or she is a Christian because of their religiosity; however, their lifestyle does not bear the marks of authenticity. What must we do? We must pray for them and share the truth with them as the Lord leads. We are fast approaching a point of no return. Our Lord is returning soon. We must put our own houses in order. We must be right with Him by denying our selves and taking up our crosses daily and following Him. We must live this way and let the Holy Spirit use our walks, our living testimony, as a witness to those lost people all around us. Along with that, we must be ready to give an account of God’s grace and His working in us. I deeply desire the salvation of many of my friends and coworkers who know not our Lord, but I also have an even deeper desire to be with Him. His will be done. Soli Deo Gloria!
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~To Him That is able to keep you from falling and to present you before His glorious presence without fault and with great joy...to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.~ Jude 24
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Eden
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Found in Him wrote quote:
Yes Eden, He requires all... it really is all or nothing. We have to be willing. He wants to be Lord, not just Savior.
Dear sister, "to will is present with me, but to perform that which I will, is not":
Romans 7:18
For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwells no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I have not found.
Romans 7:21
I find then a law, that, when I would like to do good, evil is present with me.
So Found in Him wrote quote:
Yes Eden, He requires all... it really is all or nothing. We have to be willing. He wants to be Lord, not just Savior.
So how do you think I should "perform this "all or nothing thing", dear sister? Does it suddenly happen to me on a "Tuesday", when, on "Monday", I could give Him "nothing", but then on "Tuesday" I had a change of heart and "gave Him everything", and, if I "gave Him everything on Tuesday", did I only SAY that I had given Him everything on Tuesday, for WHAT DOES IT MEAN to give Him "everything" when you speak of "give Him ALL of nothing"?
For surely to give Him all is MORE than just saying it, and must mean that I DO ALL now too on every day...so what am I DOING NOW if I say I am now "giving All to Him" on Tuesday? What did I give Him exactly on Tuesday that I did not give Him on Monday?
love, Eden
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Michael Harrison wrote quote:
But Jesus carries us if we surrender. There should only be one set of footprints in the sand.
Yes. Only MY footprints should be in the sand:
Romans 1:20
For the invisible things of Him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made ...
And so Michael Harrison wrote quote:
But Jesus carries us if we surrender. There should only be one set of footprints in the sand.
Only MY footprints will be in the sand. But if an observer looks closely, that observer will see that MY foottrail these days leads "to pastures beside quiet waters", as compared to where my "paths used to lead".
But to say that the one set of footprints are HIS footprints is "religiously cute" but probably is "meaningless jibber-jabber".
love, Eden
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Found in Him wrote quote:
I think our members will follow our heart, soul, mind and strength Eden.
NO, Let's hope that OUR members follow HIS heart, soul, and strength, Found in Him.
love, Eden
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Michael Harrison
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What a strange life.
eden, I'd have to say it is all or nothing! It is the state, and condition of surrender. It is an attitude of faith, and a gift we can have simply for believing, by an act of our will. However I cannot reconcile foundNM's attitude to that brand of faith; not by her words, except for these.
quote:
Yes Eden, He requires all... it really is all or nothing. We have to be willing. He wants to be Lord, not just Savior.
But is it truly her understanding? I do not see how she could be in dissagreement with what I have enunciated if she truly understands this. Yet we seem to be opposites.
But Jesus carries us if we surrender. There should only be on set of footprints in the sand. And I know what I have said to be true. So indeed, follow your own hearts and minds. But if Jesus IS your heart, blessing be multiplied upon you.
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Found in Him
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I think our members will follow our heart, soul, mind and strength Eden.
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~To Him That is able to keep you from falling and to present you before His glorious presence without fault and with great joy...to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.~ Jude 24
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Found in Him wrote quote:
Yes Eden, He requires all... it really is all or nothing. We have to be willing. He wants to be Lord, not just Savior.
I agree that He would LOVE to have it all, but I also think that God is VERY REALISTIC.
But, Found in Him, let me ask you, if it is true that "God requires it all... that it really is all or nothing", are all your members now given over to Jesus, and if so, let's say in a regular week, in what way are "ALL your members now given to Jesus", other than SAYING, "Lord, You can have all my members?" Saying is easier than actually doing in this case, isn't it?
So, by your own words of "all or nothing", either NONE of YOUR members are given over to the Lord or ALL of your members are given over to the Lord.
I do think that God would like to "have all of us", but I don't think He is "getting all of us" and to be honest, "I don't think He is getting all of you" nor "all of me" at this point. But He IS getting "some of us", that I am sure about.
love, Eden
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Found in Him
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Yes Eden, He requires all... it really is all or nothing. We have to be willing. He wants to be Lord, not just Savior.
Luke 14:25-35
“Therefore, salt is good; but if even salt has become tasteless, with what will it be seasoned? 35 “It is useless either for the soil or for the manure pile; it is thrown out. He who has ears to hear, let him hear.”
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~To Him That is able to keep you from falling and to present you before His glorious presence without fault and with great joy...to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.~ Jude 24
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Eden
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Found in Him wrote quote:
It's all or nothing with God.
I don't agree with that. God is already pleased when He can use our fingers and mind and heart to preach the gospel on the Internet. It is NOT an "all-or-nothing" propostion with God, God will TAKE what you give Him, and God will "continue to work on you to see if He can get more of your members to serve Him".
Found in Him, you also wrote quote:
How bout you Eden, Are you a living sacrifice?
Some of my members are dedicated to Him, like my fingers for His music and my eyes for His Bible-related books, and my heart for thinking about Him and my mouth for thanking Him...but I also cursed today out of habit from before I was saved, and so I also told the Lord that "I was sorry", something I also not did before I was saved...
love to you, Eden
"I lay down every selfish desire, 'cause I just want You" (Vicki Yohe, Christian CD)
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Found in Him
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hehehe... I have "members" in my family that I would just love to present!
Members in my neighborhood too! Members in the White house, fellowship-- ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
just messin.
It's all or nothing with God.
How bout you Eden, Are you a living sacrifice??
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~To Him That is able to keep you from falling and to present you before His glorious presence without fault and with great joy...to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.~ Jude 24
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Found in Him wrote, in response to Eden's post about "presenting one's members" quote:
I sincerely hope that you present them. It helps to bow the knee.
It does help to bow the knee. There is only one Jesus. But it also helps to run into His Everlasting Arms and ask for His forgiveness".
So in what way would you say that YOU are "presenting your members" to Him, Found in Him?
Thanks, Eden
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Found in Him
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I sincerely hope that you present them. It helps to bow the knee.
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~To Him That is able to keep you from falling and to present you before His glorious presence without fault and with great joy...to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.~ Jude 24
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Found in Him wrote to Michael Harrison quote:
You're right about the Spirit producing fruit...BUT that does NOT mean that we do not love, serve, humble ourselves & DO what He has called us to do. We labor for The Master. We have been entrusted to go and DO what He has called us to do.
But onlywhen WE PRESENT OUR MEMBERS to Him for HIM TO USE will any good come out of us because ONLY Jesus (and God and the Holy Spirit) can be good.
So only when we let JESUS be "that treasure in our vessel" will any good shine forth from us. But if we try to do anything ourselves, we will discover that we are hopelessly corrupt.
love, Eden
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Michael Harrison
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Old wineskins will not contain New Wine! You are stuck in the Old wineskin, trying to obey the law of 'doing'.
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The Story of Moses and the 10 Commandments
The Israelites had been traveling in the desert for about 3 months (which is a little longer than regular summer holidays) when they came to Mount Sinai. They were going to stay there for a while plus they excellent shelter from the mountain.
Moses got unpacked and decided to walk up the mountain to talk to God. Remember that this wasn't very easy for Moses, he was already over 80 years old.
God knew that Moses was coming so He spoke to Moses and told him to tell the Israelites to get ready. Moses came down to tell the people to have a bath and to clean all their clothes.
By doing this the people were getting prepared to hear important words from God. That is why we sometimes dress up or make sure we have clean clothes on when we go to church. It makes us hopefully behave a little nicer and shows respect to God.
On the third morning after Moses had talked to God, the Israelites where busy making their breakfast when all of a sudden there was a large rumble and a flash of light over the mountain. Anyone who was still sleeping were startled and woke up suddenly.
Everyone went out to look and just over the mountain there was lightning and thunder, and a very thick cloud hung over the mountain so you couldn't see the top. Even the mountain shook and the sound of trumpets could be heard getting louder and louder.
So Moses went up the mountain to hear from God once again. This time God told Moses, "Go down to the people and tell them not to follow you up the mountain, the mountain is a special place because I am here." So Moses warned the people not to touch or go to close to the mountain.
After that Moses went back up the mountain. But this time he stayed there for a long time (40 days and 40 nights), God sure had a lot to tell him. God wanted to instruct the people on how to live. By following His rules they would have less sadness in their lives. God just wanted to protect them.
It's just like when our parents give us rules to protect us: to look both ways before we cross the street, to not hit our brother or sister... they give us rules because they love us and know what's best for us.
We'll just talk about the first ten commandments God told Moses, otherwise we might be here for 40 days and we don't have time for that. Besides, the 10 commandments are the most important for us right now. Remember as you hear each commandment that they are all equally important, one is not more important than the other.
The first commandment is to put God first. This means that nothing should be more important than God - a hobby you enjoy, tv or video games, even your friends and family should not be more important than God.
The second command is to worship only God. This is like the first commandment in that God wants our love, and He doesn't want us to bow down and worship a statue just because we can't see Him. In other words God is the only one that we should pray to.
The third commandment is broken all the time. God commands us to use His name with respect. Many people use God's name like a swear word, or say it when they're upset. God wants us to use His name when we're talking to Him, or telling others about Him in a nice way. To use His name in these other ways is very disrespectful and hurts God to hear it.
The forth commandment should be easy, we are to remember God's Sabbath. God wants us to take one day of the week and rest. When God made the world in six days, He rested on the seventh day. This gets harder when you get older, there always seems to be something to do, but remember God commands us to take a day off.
The fifth commandment might be a little tricky for some of you, but its very important (like all the other commandments) that you follow it. He tells us to respect our parents. Sometimes you might think you know what's best, or you get frustrated because your parents won't let you do something. Remember your parents were once kids just like you, and they are trying to keep you safe and from making the same mistakes they've already made.
Which commandment is next...oh right, it's the sixth commandment. This commandment says don't hurt others. Now imagine for a minute if everyone in the whole world obeyed this rule like God wants us to. We probably wouldn't have any jails and we would all get along with one another.
The seventh commandment is for those who are married. God tells us to be faithful in marriage. He wants us to love our wife or husband someday (even if they get on your nerves once and a while) and treat them with respect.
The eighth commandment is don't steal. This means that we shouldn't take something that doesn't belong to us.
We are almost done, the next commandment is don't lie. It is always better to tell the truth, and while you're at it don't do anything that would make you want to lie. Usually parents know when you're lying anyway, and if you don't get caught God sees and hears everything and He knows.
The last commandment is don't be envious of others. This means that we shouldn't wish to have things that someone else has. I know there is always a new toy or game - there is always something that we want to get. It's important to remember that these things aren't really important. God is the most important (if you remember the first commandment).
Now I know this list might seem impossible to follow all the time. I know that I don't follow all these commands all the time, and I'm going to pray to God and ask His forgiveness and try to do my very best to not do it again.
Another thing to remember is that if you disobey a commandment God sees the smallest lie just the same as if someone hurt someone really bad. I know sometimes we think if we just told a little lie it wouldn't matter or God wouldn't notice, but it does matter and God does notice. It makes Him sad when we disobey Him, so when we make a mistake we need to say sorry to God and to the person you've wronged and try to be a better person next time.
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~To Him That is able to keep you from falling and to present you before His glorious presence without fault and with great joy...to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.~ Jude 24
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Michael Harrison
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"If I glory, I will glory in mine infirmities." Paul did not glory in his 'abilities'. They were, as it were, dead.
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No Michael it's not rocket science. I OBEY the commands and The words of The Lord.
???
You do?
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Found in Him
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Michael Harrison wrote...It's the semantics. It is hard to get one on the same train of thought about this.
No Michael it's not rocket science. I OBEY the commands and The words of The Lord. Sorry but He does not need your help in bringing any new revelation to simple commands of JUST DO IT!!!
You are right about one thing. We are NOT on the same page Michael. The Spirit brings life, liberty and peace. There is no confusion with The Lord.
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~To Him That is able to keep you from falling and to present you before His glorious presence without fault and with great joy...to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.~ Jude 24
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Found in Him
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You're right about the Spirit producing fruit...BUT that does NOT mean that we do not love, serve, humble ourselves & DO what He has called us to do. We labor for The Master. We have been entrusted to go and DO what He has called us to do.
He gives talent and abilities. They are to be put to work.
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~To Him That is able to keep you from falling and to present you before His glorious presence without fault and with great joy...to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.~ Jude 24
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Michael Harrison
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So it is not what we do, but what HE does, as we go with the flow. It is simply a faith thing. It is a relationship, faith thing.
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Michael Harrison
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It's the semantics. It is hard to get one on the same train of thought about this. So I'll try this one, keeping in mind talking about 'doing'. So, we are to bear fruit. We are to bear fruit in service. I ask you, have you ever seen a tree? Dumb question I know, but what does a tree 'do' to bear fruit? And if it tried, you'd find it a little frightening, would you not?
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Michael Harrison
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But it isn't what we 'do' after being born again. That is my point.
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Found in Him
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Michael wrote....
Well, sadly, they don’t know that Jesus changes those who come to Him by faith. But they are not change by what 'they' do. Rather they are changed by what they believe.
True we are changed when we are born-again. But Michael what "we do" after being born-again reflects that change.
You spoke of them "being one" The body of Christs believers are "one body" so, I'm not sure what you are saying about them being "one" ??
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~To Him That is able to keep you from falling and to present you before His glorious presence without fault and with great joy...to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.~ Jude 24
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Michael Harrison
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There is one message: Be one with Christ! God didn't make ‘independents.’ But everyone is doing his or her own thing after the way of Cain no less, thinking he or she is 'helping' God, and admonishing others to ‘do‘ the same. Wood, hay, and stubble!
I have to insert this in here. I watched a program produced by the “Unity Church,” tonight. They opened by saying something about how they were 'one with God, and each other.' I was watching in order to figure out their angle, whether they were of God. It was a lot of feel good stuff, chocked with good intentions, the kind churchgoers are drawn to. Typical! It didn’t take long however before a flaw was exposed in their understanding. The speaker, in warming them up, related what he knew that the parishioners would receive, their being of ‘one‘ understanding and such, and that was how that they who were gathered there (as singular in belief, and one with God) don’t die! He continued by saying that they (or those who are ‘one‘ with God (and each other)) don’t change. “We just keep going.” In other words, his congregation believes that they just pass into heaven as they are when they die, and keep on going, and are accepted as they are.
Almost sounds like the real thing huh? However, my gospel says that we are to be changed if we are to have hope. Jesus accomplishes this, but it is conditional. And if we are not changed, we are therefore condemned to hades. There is no shortcut around this though millions try, fearful of yielding their life. For they want their life, and salvation too.
Oddly, as the speaker continued, he asked if anyone was becoming a better person. It was lost on me. If one doesn’t change, how does he become a better person? If he is acceptable as he is when he dies, what change is needed? But skipping over some stuff, what the person addressing the group didn’t understand was that we cannot change ourselves. I suppose that in his mind, they as a group, believing as they do, are supposed to change till they are good enough for heaven. Maybe it is a matter of rewards, dunno. So having just stated however, that they get to keep themselves as they are, and pass on into heaven, he flipped and asked if any were becoming better people, if I didn‘t say that already. Well, it sounded like a con to me. Someone was looking for something, and the message of change accommodated whomever. Anyway, he had to count on them forgetting already, the opening comment about how they just pass into heaven, and keep going forever so that he could admonish them about 'giving' and such.
Well, sadly, they don’t know that Jesus changes those who come to Him by faith. But they are not change by what 'they' do. Rather they are changed by what they believe. And that ’what’ is really a who! And except they surrender their will to HIS (except a seed fall to the ground and die), they cannot be new creatures in Christ. They are not changed, at least from glory to glory. But just like these confused people trying to get in the fence some other way other than the gate, even truly spiritual people among true believers think just like them. Our God is broken hearted.
![[Bible]](graemlins/bible.gif)
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