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Topic: Pauls confrontation with Peter
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bluefrog
unregistered
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posted
ONEINCHRIST...As you see, I agree with you.
I hope you noticed how I worded my agreement that it was a lie of the devil if he said that if you are growing in sanctification/discipleship you cannot receive your inheritance.
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oneinchrist
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posted
Michael,
I apologize for the wrong wording. I have not yet figured out how to paste and copy on this site. I still disagree with your statement that the "growing process" of sanctification is a lie of the devil. In sanctification there is character transformation, and that does not take place all in one moment of time.
With love in Christ, Daniel
Posts: 1389 | From: Wind Lake, WI | Registered: May 2007
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bluefrog
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This fuss started when ONE IN CHRIST said to MICHAEL;
The growing process of discipleship/sanctification is on the premise of becoming more like Jesus.
Note: this frog interprets discipleship to mean the exercising of spiritual gifts.
And I interpret sanctification to mean seperating of evil and good and exposing good.
Because Michael thinks everyone is wrong, he replied:
The "growing process" of sanctification is a lie of the devil to keep the child of God from coming into the inheritance that Jesus gave him.
Then Michael went on to say it is like a scape goat using it to go ahead and sin. (somethin like that)
The frog thinks that "the growing process" means what you do as time goes by", and the inheritance means what God gave to the person when saved. But if you are a child of God, you already have the inheritance, you are already a member of the family of God. Some call it righteousness. And you sure don't earn righteousness, it is a gift.
Hopefully, we all are in a growing process each and every day. So, I guess it is a lie of the devil to say that if you are growing in sanctification/discipleship you can't receive your inheritance. But that isn't what Jesus says in the Word.
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Michael Harrison
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posted
That is quite different from what you charged.
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oneinchrist
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posted
Hi Michael,
On page 2 of this topic you stated the "growing process" of sanctification is a lie of the devil.
With love in Christ, Daniel
Posts: 1389 | From: Wind Lake, WI | Registered: May 2007
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Michael Harrison
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posted
quote:
In case you didn't know it, you are in the flesh.
Try "only in the flesh"
You know very little about scripture, for one who teaches to 'obey' it.
quote:
If God has taken over your body, soul, spirit as you say, then why are they telling everyone that they are not worthy and making such stupid statements. No, you have a very serious problem.
I do not go around saying anyone isn't worthy. I go around saying that some are not 'experiencing' what HE is willing for them to. It isn't about being 'worthy', as you pose this to me. Abraham 'believed' God, and it was ACCOUNTED to Him for righteousness. That meant that it changed him. It placed him in 'good' standing. And all he did was believe what he was supposed to about God.
So now, can you please God in the flesh? No! Abraham didn't. But you say we exist in the flesh, and are exclusively limited to it. But if you cannot worship God except in Spirit and in Truth, then you cannot be found to be in the flesh or your worship is "shew". So that contradicts what you say, one-hundred plus percent.
Posts: 3273 | From: Charlotte N.C. | Registered: Sep 2007
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Michael Harrison
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posted
After all that I have written oneinchrist, your response is most bemusing (or something).
Truly, 'to have' is the only way to love. Because "you" (nor I) have any love. Jesus said, "If ye being 'evil' know how to give good gifts..." People know how to show kindness, and they have this concept of 'love', but as you have just read, it is within the confines of 'evil'. "For if ye being evil, know how to give good gifts..." That is what Jesus is saying. But only Jesus loves. Therefore, as being incapable, we can only trust in the one who IS love. That clearly is a conditon of 'having', and that comes from 'receiving'. I'm sorry that you don't understand. You could be rich.
I am not making 'myself' right. Therefore I am not making you 'wrong'. Again, sorry you don't get it. The goal is EDIFICATION~! But if you cannot hear it, you cannot.
Here is a profound illustration of not hearing, or trying: I have not ever said (unless it was a typo) that sanctification is a lie of the devil. And until you learn to read, and consider before you label these charges, you are the one who does harm - not me. For I said that "progressive sanctification is a lie of the devil. See how the devil works?
quote:
So, if you have aught against me for saying that God does not strengthen you, go back and re-read it. For you mis-read it, clearly! Sorry to sound so demanding. Perhaps I should simply 'ask' if you will. I even gave you the scripture that cannot be faulted, which says that HIS strength is made perfect in weakness. Why then would HE strengthen you. IF you are offended at that, you oppose yourself.
Michael, to be honest with you, I am beginning to wonder how much trust you actually put in the Word of God itself. To make the statement that "Sanctification is a lie of the devil" certainly appears to be a direct assault on the Word of God, if I have ever seen one. In a post that I had written a ways back concerning the commandment of Jesus to love one another, you argued that there is no commandment except the command to "have".
The more you keep doing this, the more faith I am going to lose in what you are trying to impress on all of us.
I love you as a brother in the Lord, but your willingness to elevate the banner of your theology at the expense of canceling out scriptural truth troubles me.
I would have more respect towards you if you would be willing to believe that each one of us have something to offer for edification.......instead of your incessant arguing and persistence that your "right" makes the rest of us all "wrong".
Posts: 3273 | From: Charlotte N.C. | Registered: Sep 2007
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WildB
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Member # 2917
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by bluefrog:
MICHAEL HARRISON..SUBJECT; Pauls confrontation with Peter, and other stuff.
Michael, I cannot share the brotherly love and respect for you that One in Christ claims. Fact is that I have absolutely No Respect for you as a brother in Christ. Furthermore, I believe that your posts have convinced me that the only spirit that guides you is Satan himself. You discuise yourself as one superior to everyone else just like he did. You work your scheme differently because you are not him.
Satan made it an issue to his subordinates that God would surely disown them eventually just like you have been doing. He said if you will just listen to me, just like you do. He presented himself as a most powerful being, just as you do. He assured them all that he had all the answers, just as you do. He made it clear that whatever he said it was the truth, just like you do. You don't claim to be wanting to take over from God because you apparently think you already are, with HIM in YOU.
Ignorance and Arrogance don't match but in your case they do. When a person tells you they are a Christian you take over for God Himself and announce to them that they are not.
Just recently you said that Webster was not qualified to comment on what Sanctification means. I have no comment on that because it doesn't merit one.
You said that humility is a gift. Likewise, no comment.
You say that they who are in the flesh can only reason in the flesh. Again, very poorly said.
In case you didn't know it, you are in the flesh.
Try "only in the flesh"
You say that most are content being wrong and asked: Have you ever REVIEWED the Holy Spirit.
You said: We can not do what we think we are called to do.
You said to Eden: The spirit in me compels me Eden.
And I know what spirit you are speaking of.
If God has taken over your body, soul, spirit as you say, then why are they telling everyone that they are not worthy and making such stupid statements. No, you have a very serious problem.
You have been reading our displeasure about your hateful and ignorant comments. We are not talking to God, we are talking to you Michael Harrison, and Your Spirit who has been putting doubt in the minds of the angels and man since the beginning of time.
There is no doubt that you will start a word game here and no doubt will disagree with all I have said.
I am not about to go back and comment on all your statements and hatefulness, and why should I? I think I can speak for the rest of the folks on this board; we don't want to hear it again. Mister, you need help.
Well said.
--------------------
That is all.....
Posts: 8775 | From: USA, MICHIGAN | Registered: Mar 2004
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bluefrog
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posted
MICHAEL HARRISON..SUBJECT; Pauls confrontation with Peter, and other stuff.
Michael, I cannot share the brotherly love and respect for you that One in Christ claims. Fact is that I have absolutely No Respect for you as a brother in Christ. Furthermore, I believe that your posts have convinced me that the only spirit that guides you is Satan himself. You discuise yourself as one superior to everyone else just like he did. You work your scheme differently because you are not him.
Satan made it an issue to his subordinates that God would surely disown them eventually just like you have been doing. He said if you will just listen to me, just like you do. He presented himself as a most powerful being, just as you do. He assured them all that he had all the answers, just as you do. He made it clear that whatever he said it was the truth, just like you do. You don't claim to be wanting to take over from God because you apparently think you already are, with HIM in YOU.
Ignorance and Arrogance don't match but in your case they do. When a person tells you they are a Christian you take over for God Himself and announce to them that they are not.
Just recently you said that Webster was not qualified to comment on what Sanctification means. I have no comment on that because it doesn't merit one.
You said that humility is a gift. Likewise, no comment.
You say that they who are in the flesh can only reason in the flesh. Again, very poorly said.
In case you didn't know it, you are in the flesh.
Try "only in the flesh"
You say that most are content being wrong and asked: Have you ever REVIEWED the Holy Spirit.
You said: We can not do what we think we are called to do.
You said to Eden: The spirit in me compels me Eden.
And I know what spirit you are speaking of.
If God has taken over your body, soul, spirit as you say, then why are they telling everyone that they are not worthy and making such stupid statements. No, you have a very serious problem.
You have been reading our displeasure about your hateful and ignorant comments. We are not talking to God, we are talking to you Michael Harrison, and Your Spirit who has been putting doubt in the minds of the angels and man since the beginning of time.
There is no doubt that you will start a word game here and no doubt will disagree with all I have said.
I am not about to go back and comment on all your statements and hatefulness, and why should I? I think I can speak for the rest of the folks on this board; we don't want to hear it again. Mister, you need help.
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oneinchrist
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posted
Hi Michael,
I am not sure how you are using the scripure you provided as an argument against what I am saying. On top of that, I am not sure why anyone would want to argue against the importance of cultivating a heart of obedience towards the Lord.
Michael, to be honest with you, I am beginning to wonder how much trust you actually put in the Word of God itself. To make the statement that "Sanctification is a lie of the devil" certainly appears to be a direct assault on the Word of God, if I have ever seen one. In a post that I had written a ways back concerning the commandment of Jesus to love one another, you argued that there is no commandment except the command to "have".
The more you keep doing this, the more faith I am going to lose in what you are trying to impress on all of us.
I love you as a brother in the Lord, but your willingness to elevate the banner of your theology at the expense of canceling out scriptural truth troubles me.
I would have more respect towards you if you would be willing to believe that each one of us have something to offer for edification.......instead of your incessant arguing and persistence that your "right" makes the rest of us all "wrong".
I am not sorry to be honest with how I feel.
With love in Christ, Daniel
Posts: 1389 | From: Wind Lake, WI | Registered: May 2007
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Eden
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posted
Michael Harrison wrote to Eden, et al., quote:
The Spirit in me compels me eden.
That's what worries me, Michael Harrison, that the Spirit compels YOU. Instead, trust that the Spirit compels HIMSELF in you. There IS a difference, if you will cease from your own works.
Hebrews 4:1
Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into His rest, lest any of you should seem to come short of it.
Hebrews 4:10
For he who is entered into His rest, he also has ceased from his own works, as God did from His.
So Michael Harrison wrote to Eden, et al., quote:
The Spirit in me compels me eden.
That's what worries me, Michael Harrison, that the Spirit compels YOU. Instead, trust that the Spirit compels HIMSELF IN you. Lean not upon your OWN understanding:
Proverbs 3:5
Trust in the LORD with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding.
When we let Christ IN us do our thinking for us and thus the guiding of our steps, then we have "ceased from our own works" and we are "no longer leaning on our own understanding", but on "God's understanding" of the thing that I need to do next, as in, rightnow next.
love, Eden
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Michael Harrison
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quote:
One who sees the difference between the one who just does not want to obey His word and the one who wants to obey but needs more strength.
How could you disagree with this?...........
Commit your life in obedience to Jesus, and God will stengthen you when you need it.
Reconcile that to this:
2Co 12:9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.
Why would HE 'strengthen' His, when one's strength is better realized in weakness? He doesn't strengthen. For that which should be dead, should not be strengthened. quote:
Posts: 3273 | From: Charlotte N.C. | Registered: Sep 2007
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oneinchrist
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posted
Eden,
My hope is that when you read the gospels and take in what Jesus teaches us that you spend more time finding good reasons to obey and less time finding good reasons to pass them up as unatainable. When it comes to living out our Christian faith, God is the One who sees the difference between the one who just does not want to obey His word and the one who wants to obey but needs more strength.
How could you disagree with this?...........
Commit your life in obedience to Jesus, and God will stengthen you when you need it.
I do not believe that God demands perfection, but I do believe that He commands obedience........."This is my beloved Son in whom I am well pleased, hear ye Him!".
Will we also be like the disciples when they said, "Lord, increase our faith" (because we think that the Lord puts too great of a demand on us by His commands). Will we also say "we are unprofitable servants. We have done what was our duty to do."
With love in Christ, Daniel
Posts: 1389 | From: Wind Lake, WI | Registered: May 2007
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Eden
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posted
Michael Harrison wrote quote:
I would 'enjoy' myself if people were enlightened! However when they are not ready to receive, perhaps I am out of the gate too early.
What? You can only enjoy yourself if others are enlightened? What planet do YOU live on???
For now you are talking about something you have no control over; you only have control over how YOU are doing. And the better YOU are doing, the more it will rub off on others...or not! ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif) And if not, all you can do is try anyway. Just being myself is enough for me (and that is already too much for some!). ![[Smile]](smile.gif) For the rest, it's none of my business how or why people do what they do. I hope they are all happy most of the time.
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Michael Harrison
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I would 'enjoy' myself if people were enlightened! However when they are not ready to receive, perhaps I am out of the gate too early.
Posts: 3273 | From: Charlotte N.C. | Registered: Sep 2007
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Eden
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posted
Still ... nothing. Enjoy yourself.
Isaiah 65:22
... My elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.
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Eden
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Michael Harrison wrote quote:
I have often felt that if someone was not willing to read, and even chew on what someone said, that they should not bother to comment. Because usually people skim until they hit a trip-wire for what is a 'hottopic' for them personally, and they miss the point, and carry on about something which misses the point. You think?
But, so what. The most important thing is that we are saved and that we make it clear how to be saved. Beyond that, none of it is earthshaking, and everyone participates only to their own ability and interests anyway. So "if it makes you happy, have at it", as long as it is somewhere, however remotely, related to the Bible. As the banks say when they try to find someone to sell their portfolio of foreclosed houses: "all we need is a body".
love, Eden
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Michael Harrison
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quote:
ONLY Jesus IN US can keep His own teachings, if we will only let Him...
It is a hard point to make that we cannot 'do' that which we think we are called to. We either sound self-righteous, or hypocritical when we try. The point is however, to exhort the brethren to 'let' Jesus be who HE is that we may be filled with all the goodness of God. And the only way to 'let' Jesus is to 'let' Him 'do' it all, by believing unto Him to. One comes to the end of himself only when he 'does' this.
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Michael Harrison
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eden:
quote:
Don't worry about it, bluefrog. Nor should you expect other people over whom you have no control to "read all your stuff"; people have different busy schedules, some only have time to skim, others read more, etc.
I have often felt that if someone was not willing to read, and even chew on what someone said, that they should not bother to comment. Because usually people skim until they hit a trip-wire for what is a 'hottopic' for them personally, and they miss the point, and carry on about something which misses the point. You think?
Posts: 3273 | From: Charlotte N.C. | Registered: Sep 2007
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Eden
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oneinchrist wrote to Eden quote:
I am able to obey what He has given me the ability to obey.
I see. Forgive me, but all of us can write a vague statement like that. But what about some specifics? And it's not okay to come up with just one specific, because Jesus had quite a few "teachings", did He not, that presumably we should "all" be able to obey? And what about the notion that if we fail in one, we fail in all?
James 2:10
For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
That was written by James, a bornagain Christian. The point is, I think, that Jesus died for us because we CANNOT keep the teachings of Jesus. ONLY Jesus IN US can keep His own teachings, if we will only let Him...
love, Eden
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oneinchrist
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I am able to obey what He has given me the ability to obey. How could you have gathered from my post that I do not recognize the source of our strength to serve God?
With love in Christ, Daniel
Posts: 1389 | From: Wind Lake, WI | Registered: May 2007
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Eden
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oneinchrist wrote quote:
Eden, First tell me, what are you trying to prove? Why dont you just tell me what you disagree with in my post and why------before getting personal.
Aye...oneinchrist...when you are talking about the "teachings of Jesus" that we should "obey", which teachings are you talking about?
Love your neighbor as yourself? Are you indeed able to love your neighbor as yourself, seriously?
Love one another as Jesus loved us? Are you indeed able to love one another as Jesus loved you, seriously?
Love your enemies? Are you indeed able to love your enemies, seriously?
Have no lustful thoughts about a woman? Are you indeed able to have no lustful thoughts ever about a woman, seriously?
These are just a few examples. I don't think that we can obey ANY OF THEM, but Jesus inside of me can obey them, IF I get out of the way and "cease from my own works" (cease from my own trying), and let Jesus be God in me, yes, God can do these things, but WE CANNOT OBEY the teachings of Jesus.
And I agree with Watchman Nee in this, that teachings like those contained in the sermon on the mount were NOT intended for us to KEEP them, but for us to BREAK them. Why?
Because God's purpose in all of this is to show us our UTTER helplessness and hopelessness and sinfulness, until He finally brings each one of us to, "O wretched man that I am!!! WHO shall deliver me from this body of death?" And the fantastic answer is: "Jesus Christ".
Jesus Christ is the only one in history who can keep His own teachings IN US. But if we try to keep them or obey them, we will utterly fail...then we repent and resolve to "put some extra will power into it" and to "pray even harder" and for a few days I managed to "obey" and then, poof, someone said something or did something that irritated me again, and oh, no, a bad thought! And there goes "love your enemies".
So that's why I asked, oneinchrist, what teachings of Jesus are YOU able to obey?
love, Eden
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oneinchrist
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posted
Eden,
First tell me, what are you trying to prove? Why dont you just tell me what you disagree with in my post and why------before getting personal.
With love in Christ, Daniel
Posts: 1389 | From: Wind Lake, WI | Registered: May 2007
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Eden
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oneinchrist wrote to Eden quote:
but we should be among those who take Jesus teachings to heart and obey them because it glorifies God ...
Okay, tell me some of the teachings of Jesus that you obey.
Thanks, Eden
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oneinchrist
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Hi Eden,
The Lords Name is sanctified among the people when we obey His Word.......I suppose there are some who may do religious things to try and look good, but we should be among those who take Jesus teachings to heart and obey them because it glorifies God and gives credibily to His Word in the sight of others.
With love in Christ, Daniel
Posts: 1389 | From: Wind Lake, WI | Registered: May 2007
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bluefrog
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Thank You Eden. I have to keep reminding myself that I am no longer a Military Training Instructor. I did that for 7 years of my prime time in life and it just stuck. It was a life style for us guys that did or do that.
I guess I expect too much from myself and others as well. That way of life you learn to do your very best because your life depends on it. You are a team with your troops as well, doing what you can for them and they for you. When someone starts jerkin another around it has to stop.
I know...blah blah...old dog, no new tricks. lol
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Eden
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Hi, bluefrog, you wrote quote:
Because of all the time I spend in research and making an effort to write my results properly so they can be well understood it doesn't seem fair that folks just skim over it, misunderstanding most of the time and come back with some off the wall comment is disturbing.
Don't worry about it, bluefrog. Nor should you expect other people over whom you have no control to "read all your stuff"; people have different busy schedules, some only have time to skim, others read more, etc.
There have been plenty of times where I wrote something that "I quite fancied myself" and then the next day when I looked for a comparable answer, nobody had said a word about it; happens all the time. Just be yourself. If it helps someone, it helps someone; it not, not. No big deal.
Just enjoy yourself and consider that in the process of researching, YOU are the one who learns, first and foremost. I'm glad you are participating on this bbs. Frankly I'm glad ANYBODY is participating at all. love, Eden
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Michael Harrison
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Well blue, should I accept the conclusion which you have researched and amalgamated from various texts about religion? Is the conclusion gospel?
Posts: 3273 | From: Charlotte N.C. | Registered: Sep 2007
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bluefrog
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posted
MICHAEL...Don't you ever stop ?
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Michael Harrison
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quote:
Because of all the time I spend in research and making an effort to write my results properly so they can be well understood it doesn't seem fair that folks just skim over it, misunderstanding most of the time and come back with some off the wall comment is disturbing.
Can't possibly imagine what you are talking about. ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
quote:
I can see that I am getting no where on most all subjects. Along with that, I am told that I am a false low down no good sorry unbeliever. This is not fun or worthwhile much any more.
Ever researched the Holy Spirit? After all, the only way we know anything is by 'revelation'. That means we are 'revealed' the truth. Else all we have at our disposal is what the learned sages of the faith have, the Phd's, Phud's, Doctor eze etc., which is volumes of documented theology. God'll recognize that, huh!
Posts: 3273 | From: Charlotte N.C. | Registered: Sep 2007
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bluefrog
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EDEN...on the subject of Sanctification I also give up. Did you read my post on 2/15/09 at 6:05 pm. If you did read it and just disagree then that I can't help.
This old frog don't just dream stuff up or get it off of restroom walls, n' stuff. I research it and I have a pretty good library. I have commentaries in book sets and on CD's. All of them say basicly the same thing.
I can see that I am getting no where on most all subjects. Along with that, I am told that I am a false low down no good sorry unbeliever. This is not fun or worthwhile much any more.
Because of all the time I spend in research and making an effort to write my results properly so they can be well understood it doesn't seem fair that folks just skim over it, misunderstanding most of the time and come back with some off the wall comment is disturbing.
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bluefrog
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ONEINCHRIST...OK, I give up again. To be sure that I was not off on the wrong track I drug out my bible commentaries and went also to three commentaries I have on CD. They all agreed with what I have told you already. End of story.
Sorry bout that.
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Michael Harrison
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So if someone does not understand the meaning of putting Jesus on the throne of his heart, he is, "Honoring with his lips, while his heart is far from HIM." ...and most people are content in that condition.
Posts: 3273 | From: Charlotte N.C. | Registered: Sep 2007
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Michael Harrison
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Gal 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
Here we see that we have 'put on Christ'. How is that understood? You have become 'one' with Him. And to iterate: When you "Put on Christ" you do so from the innermost of your heart, outward." For it starts with HIS having center stage in your heart. It starts with His being enthroned on the throne of your heart. Else the rest doesn't take place, and your servitude is insufficient. You do not 'pass go' till this occurs. You fool yourself. (That is why so many, who have the Spirit of God, are nevertheless out there, but they are doing the work, and it is not necessarily blessed.)
So, one walks with Jesus when he lets Jesus replace him in thought and deed. And you thereafter are along for the ride. This is why I have said that the picture/poem "Footprints in the sand" does not show the correct picture. For there is only 'one' set of footprints in the sand if one is truly "serving" Christ.
Rom 13:14 But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof.
So, if one is under the Cross, he is dead, and Jesus lives. But Jesus lives in you, in who you are (through faith), as you are 'dead', or 'resting' in Him.
Posts: 3273 | From: Charlotte N.C. | Registered: Sep 2007
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Michael Harrison
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quote:
The vessels of the Temple were sanctified unto the LORD, meaning, the vessels were to be strictly used for the LORD's ceremonies, but the vessels DID NOT BECOME GOD because they were sanctified. The vessels were "sanctified" only because they were "avaiable for God's use".
Borrowing from your post to my thread where you realize that it was not Michael's writing, but Charles Trumbull's: Why are my posts 'wordy'? Well, simple doesn't work. At least complicated gives people an excuse to write it off. But I cannot say, "Christ as Michael." The devil comes along and fills the hearer with fear and indignation. The hearer stoops to comments like, "Oh, you think you are God!" Well! Your quote above clears this up nicely.
But (ready for 'wordy'?):
2Co 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
Behold, he is not one only, but 'two', God in Christ Jesus, in you. One is a New Creature by the presence of Christ in his person. Reread the passage by Trumbull and you'll find that he related his being 'put on' by Jesus, as though Jesus was wearing a glove. It is then that one knows he is in proper relationship, for he is no longer working 'for' God, but by God. Or he is working 'with' God, by HIS being in him, rather than 'for' God by HIS being external, as it were.
People will scream "Puppet!" Well, yes. If you are not willing to surrender to such, you are not willing to be provided for by God. You reject God. You are, as the word is recorded in scripture, 'evil' by nature of being 'separate'.
But I have a better answer for you. You are a puppet if you are a 'slave' to sin.
Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
The question is who do you yield yourselves servants to obey? And you do not obey the Lord by 'doing'. You obey the Lord by letting. You 'do' sin, or you 'let' life live in you.
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Eden
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Hi, oneinchrist, you wrote to bluefrog quote:
Well, first of all, we know that sanctification means "to be set apart unto God". Next question....set apart unto what? Yes, becoming more Christ-like.
Yes, sanctification means "to be set apart unto God", but "set apart unto what" does NOT mean "becoming more Christ-like". What were are "set apart unto" means "being available for God to use"; it does NOT mean "becoming more Christ-like".
The only exception is that we WOULD become "more Christ-like" if we made ourselves "more available for God to use" LIKE JESUS made Himself available for God to use, only if we did THAT could we say that we "became more Christlike".
The vessels of the Temple were sanctified unto the LORD, meaning, the vessels were to be strictly used for the LORD's ceremonies, but the vessels DID NOT BECOME GOD because they were sanctified. The vessels were "sanctified" only because they were "avaiable for God's use".
So to repeat what you wrote, oneinchrist quote:
Well, first of all, we know that sanctification means "to be set apart unto God". Next question....set apart unto what? Yes, becoming more Christ-like.
When Christians speak of "becoming more Christlike" they usually refer to "their own behavior", meaning they are now "trying to be nicer", "trying to be sweeter", "trying to be less ornery", "trying to pray more", "trying to read the Bible more", and if they ARE able to do that, they think they are now "more Christlike".
But all sancfication really means is for a vessel to be set apart unto God, or for a vessel to be available for God's use.
In terms of "Now it is not I who live but Christ who lives in me", to the extent that a Christian "ceases from his own works" and "stops doing his own thinking" but "instead lets Christ IN him do the thinking and the guiding", to that extent is a Christian "set apart for use by God" since Jesus is God, and indeed to that extent is a Christian "look more Christlike" for the simple reason that "Christ is acting in him", and THAT is what makes the Christian "more Christlike", but NOT any attempt for the CHRISTIAN to "be nicer". That won't work.
love, Eden
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Eden
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oneinchrist wrote quote:
Michael,
You stated in your post that the "growing process" of sanctification is a lie of the devil. I do not believe that I can agree with that ... on the grounds that ... no man learns humility in one moment in time ... and "learning humility" is very much of what sanctification is about.
Michael Harrison probably means that Christ IN us IS sanctification Himself, and when we "get out of the way" by "ceasing from our own works" (I.e., we let Christ in us do our thinking FOR us), then Christ IS santification.
But if WE try to be "sanctified", there is exactly NO SUCH THING as WE being "sanctified" since we are hopeless sinners ("O wretched man that I am!"), so in that regard Michael Harrison is probably saying that it is a "lie" from the devil that sinful human beings, even bornagain ones, can be "sanctified".
Probably ONLY JESUS in us and thru us can be sanctified, and unless WE cease from our own works, we will NEVER be sanctified because it is only when we allow Jesus to be Jesus in us that sanctification will show up since Jesus IS sanctification personnified:
1 Corinthians 1:30
But of Him {God} are you in Christ Jesus, who of God is made to us wisdom and righteousness and sanctification and redemption.
I think the devil has done a good job at making us think that us saved sinners can be "sanctified" (as in, "oh, you are SO sanctified!").
love, Eden
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oneinchrist
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Hi again Bluefrog,
I looked at what you said that Peter said in your initial post, then I looked at the scripture that you used to support your claim---and I see absolutely no correlation. Sorry, I dont know what else to say.
With love in Christ, Daniel
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Michael Harrison
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![[Bible]](graemlins/bible.gif) They who are in the flesh can only reason in the flesh.
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bluefrog
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MICHAEL..Why do you say that Webster is not qualified to comment on a word?
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bluefrog
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One in Christ....Are you sure you won't just take my word for it? Oh Well.
Galatians 2:7-14
7)But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter;
8)(For He that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles;)
9)And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship, that we shoulld go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.
10)Only they would that we should remember the poor; the same which I also was forward to do.
11)But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed.
12)For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles; but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision.
13)An the other Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation.
14)But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?
I did it, I did it ! ![[hyper]](graemlins/hyper.gif)
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Michael Harrison
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Webster was not qualified to comment.
Sanctification does share in humility. If humility is not a trait of sanctification, one is not sanctified. But as before, I have to again say, humility is a 'gift' (not givt, bf). It is not something in you that you can 'perfect'. The flesh cannot be perfected. And Jesus, who is supposed to be your life, already 'knows' humility. If the Spirit is perfected, humility is a 'fruit'.
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oneinchrist
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Ok bluefrog, 3 things to adress from your post....first thing.....you keep saying that Peter was telling Gentiles this and that......where is the scripture support for where Peter is telling them these false things? Peter was getting accused of hypocrisy in his behavior, not for proclaiming a false gospel.
Second thing, I agree with you that humor can get us in more in touch with important messages.
Third thing, Yes, Websters definition sounds to be pretty much in line with bible dictionary definitions.....especially with the word "growing"
With love in Christ, Daniel
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bluefrog
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OneinChrist...You are being patient with me. Thank You.
You had said: Bluefrog, You stated that they needed to hear the gospel correctly. I disagree with that. They were hearing it correctly. I agree with Eden that they needed to see it PRACTICED CORRECTLY.
OK, but Peter was not telling the Gentiles about the proper gospel. He was telling them that there were better Christians than others and that circumcision was an important thing. He was a Jew and Jews were circumcised. I'm not saying that the bible said he didn't know the gospel, and I am not saying he wasn't preaching the proper gospel. It just said he fudged some because he was Peter and just couldn't help himself.
I have found numerous times that if a serious issue is given in a humorous way it sticks. The Circucision Practiced Correctly was thrown in for the bible lawyers.
If everything else fails, read the instructions.
Webster says, Sanctification is a state of growing in divine grace as a result of Christian commitment after baptism or conversion.
Is that not being Set Apart ? ![[clap2]](graemlins/clap2.gif)
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oneinchrist
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Hi again Bluefrog,
You would like for me to explain what "learning humility" would have to do with sanctification??
Well, first of all, we know that sanctification means "to be set apart unto God". Next question....set apart unto what? Yes, becoming more Christ-like. Christ-like is exactly the opposite of Satan-like. Satan-like is pride, arrogance, and self-exaltation; whereas, Christ-like is humbly seeking the glory of another and/ or humbly seeking the best interest of another. I am not saying that "sanctification" is learning humility, but I am saying that I certainly believe that "sanctification" , to a large extent, involves the process of "learning humility".
With love in Christ, Daniel
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oneinchrist
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Bluefrog,
I did read your skit. I found it to be very speculative, if you actually even meant it to be serious at all. It seems to me that you do not understand my position even though Ive repeated it several times in my posts with most all of you. For you to imply that I meant that "circumcision" needed to be practiced correctly is way off base. What I believe that needed to be practiced correctly is the showing of love without hypocrisy.........meaning that Peter should not have to withdraw himself from the Gentiles just because certain Jews show up on the scene.
As far as "sanctification" is concerned. I cannot argue against the definition of "sanctification" as "being set apart unto God". I was not in disagreement with your post on sanctification. If I was, I would have told you and explained to you why I disagree.
I am convinced by the Word of God that "sanctification" involves the process of "learning humility"; therefore, I oppose the idea that Michael seems to be proposing, that it is a one-time experience, or that perhaps it does not even exist because it is a lie of the devil.
With love in Christ, Daniel
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bluefrog
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ONE IN CHRIST..Please explain what Humility has to do with Sanctification. I really want to know why you say that. Really. Please. Rivit.
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