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Topic: The Serpent of Genesis 3
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bluefrog
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Eden...You are a hoot ! God Bless Ya !
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Eden
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bluefrog wrote quote:
You say that the serpent didn't eat dust until God cursed it. If serpents eat dust, I have never seen it.
Well, serpents do get some serious dust on their beaks and partially into their mouths when they strike down on a cricket, and the snake does not seem to mind the dust and eats that too; the snake does not seem to "give a hoot" because he knows it will "become a poot" a little later. It's called "snake fiber", "it's on the box".
love, Eden
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bluefrog
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scripture unhesitatingly affirms Satans existence. Yet while Satan's powers are great, Scripture never permits us to blame this malignant being for our own failures or sins. Satan cannot make us act against our will.
GLORY BELONGS TO HIM...In response to your comments above, you say that there are no overweight snakes. I suppose that that means they could have had legs. Design me a snake with four legs that wouldn't have back trouble.
I have never seen a snake talk or eat dirt either. Sorry.
Cooperating with and being Satan is not the same.
You say that if I called you sweetie I would be out of line. Well, you missed the point totally.
However, it seems sad that you would object to someone calling you sweetie. When I have been called sweetie I took it as a nice compliment, but my point was "what" you are called to describe your personality.
I didn't say God punished Satan was a figure of speech, you assumed that I did. Nope.
You say that the serpent didn't eat dust until God cursed it. If serpents eat dust, I have never seen it.
Rev 12:9 And the great dragon (oh oh ) was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world; he was cast out into the earth, and his angels wer cast out with him.
Rev 9:11 And they had a king (not a snake)over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, (oops, another name) but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon (not another...gotta make a list)
(In English, I'll call him Scumbag and let it talk) hehehe
Well, that's my two bits for now. Ain't this fun? I'm not trying to be tacky. I'm just trying to explain why I think Satan is a snake only by a description of personality. Haven't you ever been called something in like manner when you knew you weren't ? Know what...I'm starting to feel sorry for snakes now. rivit
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Glory belongs to Him
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Nope! God is a God that knows all even ahead of time.
He knew that satan would enter in and use the snake to bequile Eve. There is nothing that takes God by surprise.
The snake was more cunning than any beast of the field. Which to me means the snake was smarter than any beast of the field.
God has a reason for all things and there must have been a reason for satan to use the snake to bequile Eve.
Would you say it is because the snake had ways like satan (Lucifier)?
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If you ever get so hungry for God that you are in pursuit of Him, He will do things for you that He won't do for anybody else.
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Eden
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Glory belongs to Him wrote quote:
Eden you asked did the snake cooperate with Lucifier the Word speaks for itself.
Do you cooperate with him when you say things you shouldn't?
I do co-operate with him (jyst ask Michael Harrison, he knows... ![[Wink]](wink.gif) ), but Adam and Eve were humans made in the image and likeness of God, and those two humans possessed the intellect necessary to co-operate with Lucifer-Satan.
A snake brain cab however not really be "said to have the ability to co-operate with the likes of Lucifer-Satan", that would be like asking a fly to co-operate on the nuclear work of Werner von Braun (before the deadline).
The snake would much more likely have been, like, "What the hay? What's going on here, how come I'm feeling so weird", kind of thing, rather than speaking of "co-operation" as could be said of humans who "joined Satan's rebellion" against God. I don't think the snake "joined Satan's rebellion against God" on purpose, do ya?
love, Eden
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Glory belongs to Him
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Thank you Eden for your reply
Genesis 3:1
And the snake was more cunning than any beast of the field.
No bluefrog I left the city about fiften years ago. I got tired of the fast living and over crowding.
Just want you to know that God's Word never contradict itself.
Eden you asked did the snake cooperate with Lucifier the Word speaks for itself.
Do you cooperate with him when you say things you shouldn't?
Do a murder cooperate when he or she kills.
Do a liar cooperate when he or she lies.
Do a adulter cooperate when they commit adultery just to name a few I could go farther.
And man would not have to be sentenced to hell if they had never cooperated with or followed satan.
bluefrog you don't find to many overweigh snakes unlike humans they seem not to want to carry around a lot of weight.
You also wrote:
If I called you sweetie would I be right, and did your ancestor climb around in trees and pick fleas off each other.
If you called me sweetie you would be out of line and my ancestors live in houses not trees they eat food and not fleas.
WE LEAVE THAT TO FROGS THAT ALSO HAVE LEGS RIVET! RIVET! RIVET!
Yes God punish the snake just as He punish Adam and Eve. When God punished the snake it was not a figure of speech it was a reality whether you beleive it or not.
In the beginning the snake was not a creature that crawled the Word cleary implicates that.
What did the snake eat before it was cursed?
Evidently it wasn't dust!! ! And I don't think frogs was one of it's appetizers until after the curse. RIVET! RIVET!
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If you ever get so hungry for God that you are in pursuit of Him, He will do things for you that He won't do for anybody else.
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Eden
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bluefrog wrote quote:
We do know that pagan religions used them as gods ...
But many other animals were also used as gods, especially in Egypt, and in every primitive country they tended to worship as gods their local animals, like the bison in North America, or whatever. So snakes were made into gods too, but by no means exclusively. You continued quote:
Jesus used a scathing condemnation of the teachers of law and Pharisees who opposed him by describing them as a "brood of vipers"...
Good point. You continued quote:
To me personally, there is no Figure of Speech better than Serpent, Snake, or Viper when talking about a living being or creature when it comes to Satan so it is easy for me to understand why it is used.
And indeed, on some continents, like Africa and Asia and South America, their snakes are a lot more feared than say, our rattlesnake in 2009. Even today, snakes are probably Africa's number one killer still, and they must have had plenty of "vipers" in Israel in its day. You continued: quote:
I also believe that it is sort of stretching the immagination or truth to think that Satan has the power to make a snake talk.
Agreed. I know GOD can make Balaam's donkey talk, but that does not mean that SATAN has that creative power too. Although Satan IS an angel, fallen or not, and the 3 angels who came to Sodom certainly WERE ABLE to do MIRACLES.
Or, maybe it was NOT a matter of Satan BECOMING a snake but rather a matter of Satan ENTERING A SNAKE and then SPEAKING THRU with its own voice thru the mouth of the snake:
John 13:27
And after the sop, Satan ENTERED him {Judas).
Mark 5:13
... And the unclean spirits went out and ENTERED the swine.
love, Eden
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bluefrog
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EDEN..look up beguile for Satan beguiled Eve and see what it says. hehe When ya start checking out the verbage in and around there you don't want to open that can of worms. It's best to just let it be a serpent. And what does it say about when the boys were born..continued.
Bible lawyer assignment.
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Eden
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Found in Him wrote quote:
well, his slithery self is about to get his behind penned up for a millennium or so. No worries!
If they only pen up his slithery behind we are still in trouble. Like a lizard, a snake can still live without his behind. The whole snake needs to be penned up, just to be safe. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
love, Eden
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Found in Him
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quote:
Originally posted by Found in Him:
well, his slithery self is about to get his behind penned up for a millennium or so. No worries!
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~To Him That is able to keep you from falling and to present you before His glorious presence without fault and with great joy...to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.~ Jude 24
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Eden
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Glory belongs to Him wrote quote:
Have you ever wonder of all the animals in the Garden of Eden why satan used a sly and [/b]cunny[/b] snake?
There are of course MANY species of animals which are "sly" and "cunny". Like the gazelle antelopes who have to come for a drink to the river, and like a pride of lions hunting some gazelle antelopes, all have to be "sly" and "cunny".
However, the scripture does say that the snake was MORE SUBTIL than any other animal of the field:
Genesis 3:1
Now the serpent was MORE SUBTIL than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made...
Strong's Concordance
Gen 3:1 Now the serpent 5175 was 1961 more subtil 6175 than any beast 2416 of the field 7704 which the LORD 3068 God 430 had made 6213...
6175 gah-room; cunning (usually in a bad sense):--crafty, prudent, subtil.
This word "gah-room" occurs 11 times in the Old Testament, and is only once translated "subtil", and is once translated "crafty".
But the other 9 instances of the word "gah-room" all occur in the book of Proverbs where all 9 are translated as "prudent", as in Proverbs 14:15:
Proverbs 14:15 The simple 6612 believes 539 every word 1697: but the prudent 6175 [man] looks well 995 to his going 838.
Proverbs 14:18 The simple 6612 inherit 5157 folly 200: but the prudent 6175 are crowned 3803 with knowledge 1847.
So it's meaning may depend on "who is being gah-room"; perhaps because Lucifer-Satan had already fallen he used his "gah-room" for bad. But other than that the 9 refs are all positive "gah-rooms".
love, Eden
"ain't no bugs on me"
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Found in Him
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well, his slithery self is about to get his **** penned up for a millennium or so. No worries!
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~To Him That is able to keep you from falling and to present you before His glorious presence without fault and with great joy...to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.~ Jude 24
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bluefrog
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I wish someone would kill that snake now and we can string him up and let everyone get a look.
Last time it slithered onto this board it stayed around a couple of weeks hissing and stuff.
So, serpent means snake but head and heel doesn't mean head and heel. ![[Confused]](confused.gif)
Like I said, Satan has gotta be lovin this.
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Eden
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Glory belongs to Him wrote quote:
First question;
Again, satan was never a snake he used the snake to help him bequile Eve. God didn't turn him into a snake the snake was in the Garden of Eden just like all the other animals were.
So did the snake CO-OPERATE with Lucifer-Satan that the SNAKE was punished with having to go on its belly "for the rest of its days"?
Or did the snake wonder what was happening to him? And if that was the case, why was he being punished?
love, Eden
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bluefrog wrote:
quote:
First question:
Why would God turn satan into a snake if he already was one?
Second question:
Don't you think "upon thy belly....ETC is also a figure of speech? I do.
First question;
Again, satan was never a snake he used the snake to help him bequile Eve. God didn't turn him into a snake the snake was in the Garden of Eden just like all the other animals were.
Second question:
It is obvious at one time the snake must have had legs and feet just like all the other animals that walk on land. (Even flies have legs)
The snake had legs and feet why else what God have said;
"Because you have done this,
you are cursed more than all cattle, and more than every beast in the field; on your belly you shall go, and you shall eat dust all the days of your life."
When God spoke the Word and said "on your belly you shall go" at that very instant the snake no longer walk but crawl and crawl to this day.
Have you ever wonder of all the animals in the Garden of Eden why satan used a sly and cunny snake?
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If you ever get so hungry for God that you are in pursuit of Him, He will do things for you that He won't do for anybody else.
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Found in Him
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You guys still debating over a snake? Oooooooooh Bible Lawyers! hehehe
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~To Him That is able to keep you from falling and to present you before His glorious presence without fault and with great joy...to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.~ Jude 24
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Eden
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bluefrog wrote that Eden said quote:
EDEN...OK, briefly, you said that the Holy Spirit would not use figures of speech in the scriptures. Are you saying that HEAD and HEAL are not figures of speech?
Are you confusing me with becauseHElives, or did I say that somewhere in a post above?
love, Eden
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bluefrog
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EDEN...OK, briefly, you said that the Holy Spirit would not use figures of speech in the scriptures. Are you saying that HEAD and HEAL are not figures of speech ?
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Eden
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bluefrog wrote quote:
EDEN...You didn't read my script again. You just commented on it but didn't get the mesage.
Try again.
I'm not planning on reading the rest of your post where I supposedly "missed something". I skimmed through your post and found the part that I wanted to comment on, bluefrog. Be blessed.
Eden
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bluefrog
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EDEN...You didn't read my script again. You just commented on it but didn't get the mesage.
Try again.
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Eden
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bluefrog wrote about the snake figure of speech quote:
Satan has gotta love these passages.
Really? Even considering that the Holy Spirit wrote those words?
love, Eden
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bluefrog
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GLORY BELONGS TO HIM...SUBJECT: The Serpent of Genesis 3.
Now wait a minute...You have gotta be a city girl. lol
There is no scientific proof that snakes had legs. Theory maybe, proof no. If they did, they must have had a giant back problem and how would they walk up a tree or strike or crush their critter they just ate?
In Gen 3:14 the snake or serpent is just a figure of speech, something used a lot in the scriptures. The curse about putting it on it's belly just means infinitely more than the literal belly of flesh and blood, just like the words head and heel do in v15. It paints in our minds eye ultimate humiliation. It involves prostration and cleveth to the ground means a prolonged prostration. Dust thou shall eat means constant disappointment or failure. the gravel means even more disagreeable disappointment. Did snakes ever talk according to science ? hehe or did the serpent rattle his message ? Just kidding.
Satan has gotta love these passages. As for the curse, the serpent wasn't cursed, Satan was. As for the snake "letting Satan use him", now that would be one unusual snake !
Serpents are, don't you agree, thought of as slimmy, sneaky, shinny, sticky, critters that bite and kill from places where they hide and come to get you. They make girls scream and guys wet their britches.
Ever hear someone called a Dirty Rat or a Monster? Ever hear of someone called a person without a father but you knew they had one? Stuff like that. If I called you Sweetie would I be right and did your ancestor climb around in trees and pick fleas off of each other. lol
rivit
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Glory belongs to Him
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bluefrog wrote;
quote:
BECAUSEHELIVES thanks for your input. You asked: Who was the serpent? I assume you know but are asking and then furnishing the answers with help from others.
becauseHElives wrote;
quote:
You know you should be very concerned "bluefrog" snakes eat frogs and yashua did not die to save frogs...
You fellas are somethings else! ![[pound]](graemlins/pound.gif) ![[hug]](graemlins/hug.gif)
But concerning snakes that they did walk in the beginning. It has been proven through scientific observation and discovery that in the beginning as described in Genesis 3:14 that snakes did have legs and feet. Lizards still have legs and feet today and they are walking here on earth. The snake was cursed because it was used by Lucifier and the curse was passed down to all snakes. Just as the sin of Adam was passed down to all men and women. No one got off for disobeying God all were punished.
No Lucifier did not turn himself into a snake he just used the snake just like he beguile and used Eve.
Scripture says;
That the devil will work in whoever lets him.
So the snake let the devil use it too, even though the snaking is suppose to be cunning as well. Satan used the snake just as people today let the devil use them.
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If you ever get so hungry for God that you are in pursuit of Him, He will do things for you that He won't do for anybody else.
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bluefrog
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I just realized that no one has commented on my Part 2 of this thread. Over there, I had made a few comments about the Satan vs Snake discussion.
If you will notice, that AFTER the discussion between Satan and Eve in Gen 3:1-13, verse 14 reads:And the Lord God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou are cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; UPON THY BELLY SHALT THOU GO, AND DUST SHALT THOU EAT ALL THE DAYS OF THY LIFE;
First question: Why would God turn Satan into a snake if he already was one ?
Second question: Don't you think that UPON THY BELLY....ETC is also a figure of speech? I do.
Boy, I'm really asking for it aren't I ?
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bluefrog
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I certainly do not have all the answers.
To tell you why Jesus uses vipers, snakes, dragons I just don't know other than the fact that man has an attitude toward them. We do know that pagan religions used them as gods and because some have venom and can kill a man they are sort of avoided and considered bad news.
Jesus used a scathing condemnation of the teachers of law and Pharisees who opposed him by describing them as a "brood of vipers" who will surely not excape being condemned to hell. Matt 23:33. Also, only the coming of Jesus will neutralize the serpents deadly poison.
Rev 13 is called by some, the Beasts Chapter but they are all Figures of Speech.
To me personally, there is no Figure of Speech better than Serpent, Snake, or Viper when talking about a living being or creature when it comes to Satan so it is easy for me to understand why it is used.
I also believe that it is sort of stretching the immagination or truth to think that Satan has the power to make a snake talk. It was already suggested that if God can make a Jackass talk then Satan should be able to do the same, but I just can't buy that, at least for today, don't ya know. Again, Satan is still up to his tricks and allowed to do so because he must run his course just so man can witness it. If God were to eliminate Satan then man would most likely turn to God out of Fear, but not the kind of Fear that some think that means. Oh well, I'm just getting in deeper now.
The bible starts out using figures of speech and ends up doing the same. With a little help from the Spirit I think we can determine what is right. I wish I had all the answers but He and I are still working on it.
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Eden
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Revelation 20:2
And he laid hold on the dragon, that old SERPENT which is the Devil and Satan, and bound him a thousand years.
So bluefrog, let's assume that you are right, that Satan appeared as Lucifer-Satan in the same form as Lucifer-Satan appeared to Jesus on the pinnacle of the temple, i.e., as a cherubim angel.
Why then, in your opinion, did God still curse real snakes as now having to go on their belly in the dust, if Lucifer-Satan appeared to Eve as a cherubim angel? Why did the real snakes have to suffer for that?
love, Eden
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becauseHElives
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you know you should be very concerned "bluefrog" snakes eat frogs and Yahshua did not die to save frogs....
Betty was the only one here to address this head on from the scriptures....when Yahweh says something, he means exactly what he says....
quote:
Gen 3:14
So the LORD God said to the serpent:
"Because you have done this,
You are cursed more than all cattle,
And more than every beast of the field;
On your belly you shall go,
And you shall eat dust
All the days of your life.
Gen 3:15
And I will put enmity
Between you and the woman,
And between your seed and her Seed;
He shall bruise your head,
And you shall bruise His heel."
I believe satan did talk through a real snake. To this day snakes crawl on their belly because of satan causing mankind to fail through a snake.
if we question this, we must question...
did Balaam's a!ss really speak?
did demons really enter swine?
did Satan really enter Judas?
did Yahweh really curse man to have to toil by the sweat of is brow?
did Yahweh cruse woman to be under the rule of the male all the days of her life?
did Yahweh really multiply pain in child bearing?
there are "Figures of Speech" used in scripture but Geneses 3 is not one of them!
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
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bluefrog
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BECAUSEHELIVES....Thanks for your input.
You asked: Who was the serpent?
I assume that you know but are asking, and then furnishing the answers with help from others. Russell Gregg furnished some of the analogy. Maybe I can fill in some gaps or comment on some of his work in addition to my initial script. Throughout the bible Figures of Speech are used as is here. Note that the name "serpent" is used, not Satan.
I don't think there is much doubt that it was Satan. The question has been was he really a serpent? I think that it was Satan being called a serpent because of his nature, character and activities. He did have a bad past you know.
Grigg said in his comment, which I disagree with:
...the serpent is neither a figurative description of Satan, nor is it Satan in the form of a serpent . He went on to say: The real serpent was the agent in Satan's hand. See Gen 3:1 then go to 3:14. Well, I don't see it, because 3:14 is After the Fact. (?)
There was a question about how Satan "appeared" when talking to Jesus and how he appeared when talking to Eve. Answer: When Satan talked to Jesus he was the same as when he talked to Eve. The description was the difference, ie, figure of speech. Satan speaks, serpents hiss.
You ask: Where did Satan come from ? God created Satan as he did everything else. Satan was created back before this world age as told in Gen 1:1, which is another story.
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becauseHElives
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Who was the serpent?
In the account of the temptation of Eve and the Fall of mankind, in Genesis chapter 3, we are introduced to a creature called 'the serpent'. Who or what is this creature? Was it a real serpent? Some people try to make out that the story is just symbolic or an allegory, because animals do not speak human language. So who or what is the person who uses the body of this 'beast of the field', not only to speak to Eve, but also to persuade her to disobey almighty God?
The cardinal rule in understanding Scripture, and especially those verses which may be something of a puzzle, is to interpret Scripture by Scripture, that is, to see what other verses have to say on the same subject.
So what is there in the rest of the Bible that may help us to identify this serpent?
What Jesus said
On one occasion Jesus said to some Pharisees who were trying to kill him,
'Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning . . . he is a liar, and the father of it' (John 8:44).
To what event, involving lying and murder, from the beginning, could Jesus have been referring?
The temptation of Eve certainly qualifies as being in the beginning, as it is the first recorded event involving Eve after her creation. The serpent lied to Eve when he said, 'Ye shall not surely die', and as this is the first lie recorded in Scripture, the title 'father of it' [it = lies or lying] would seem to be a very apt description of the person doing the lying on this occasion.
Eighteenth century Bible commentator Matthew Henry comments on the passage,
'He [Satan] is the great promoter of falsehood of every kind. He is a liar, all his temptations are carried on by his calling evil good, and good evil, and promising freedom in sin'.1
Finally, the serpent's efforts resulted in the penalty of death falling not only on Adam and Eve, but on the whole human race. Jesus' term of 'murderer' therefore certainly applies to whoever tempted Eve.
The work of the serpent is thus the enactment of everything that Jesus ascribed to 'the devil' in John 8:44. Furthermore, there is no other event in recorded history that better fulfils this description of the devil than does the account of the temptation by the serpent in Genesis 3.
A further tie-up between the serpent of Genesis 3 and Satan, or the devil, is given in Revelation 12:9 and 20:2:
'And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world.'
The word "Satan" means "adversary" — primarily to God, secondarily to men; the term "devil" signifies "slanderer" of God to men, and of men to God'. 2
The serpent identified
Was the serpent then Satan? Although the Bible tells us that 'Satan himself is transformed into an angel of Light', or 'masquerades as an angel of light' (2 Corinthians 11:14), there are difficulties in assuming that something like this happened in the Garden of Eden. Theologian Henry C. Thiessen comments:
'. . . the serpent is neither a figurative description of Satan, nor is it Satan in the form of a serpent. The real serpent was the agent in Satan's hand. This is evident from the description of the reptile in Genesis 3:1 and the curse pronounced upon it in 3:14 [. . . upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy Life].3
The Bible tells us that, just before Judas left the Upper Room to go and betray Jesus, 'Satan entered into him' (John 13:26–27). Likewise demons can, under certain conditions, indwell either human bodies or animal bodies — for example, the time when Jesus cast out a legion of devils from a man, and they then entered a herd of pigs which ran down a steep place into the sea (Mark 5:1–13). It is therefore proper for us to conclude that Satan appropriated and used the body of a specific serpent on this occasion to carry out his subtle purpose of tempting Eve to sin.
It is also clear that the use of euphemisms about the serpent, such as calling him 'the personification of evil', or labelling the whole incident 'myth' or 'theological poetry', will not do. The Bible presents this episode as a personal encounter between Eve and Satan, as real as that between Christ and Satan in the wilderness.
The identification of the serpent as the one whose body Satan used raises further questions, such as does Satan speak audibly?
Satan speaking?
When Satan tempted Jesus, he did so with words. Jesus replied and their conversation is recorded for us in both Matthew's and Luke's Gospels (Matthew 4:1–11; Luke 4:1–13), although we are not told anything about the way Satan appeared on this occasion.
In John Bunyan's Pilgrim's Progress, the description of Christian's conversation and fight with Apollyon is no surprise to many Christians, who have had similar spiritual experiences. It is said that Martin Luther found conflict with the devil so real that on one occasion Luther threw an inkwell at him.
Concerning the temptation of Eve, Christian writer and expositor J. Oswald Sanders writes:
'It has been suggested that just as the speaking of Balaam's *** was a divine miracle, so the speaking of the serpent was a diabolic miracle.' 4
Where did Satan come from?
God has chosen not to tell us very much about the origin and apostasy of Satan.5 From the Bible we learn that he is the chief of the fallen angels (called demons or devils), and is the great adversary of God and man (Job 1:6–12; 2:1–6; 1 Peter 5:8).
He fell through pride (1 Timothy 3:6), and we deduce that this event must have been after the sixth day of creation, when God 'saw everything that he had made, and behold, it was very good' (Genesis 1:31), and before the Fall of man, recorded in Genesis 3.
Concerning his present abode, it is incorrect to think of Satan as the 'ruler of Hell', as the Bible makes no such reference. Rather, Jesus called him 'the prince of this world' (John 12:31: 14:30; 16:11), and the Bible also calls him 'the god of this world' [or 'age'] (2 Corinthians 4:4), and 'the prince of the power of the air' (Ephesians 2:2). It speaks of Satan 'going to and fro in the earth, and . . . walking up and down in it' (Job 2:2;1 Peter 5:8), and of his activity 'in the heavenly places' [or 'realms'] (Ephesians 6:11–12).
by Russell M. Grigg
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
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yahsway
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Your welcome, i knew what you meant and agree with you!
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bluefrog
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YAHSWAY...Thank You. I'm glad that someone agrees with me. We said it in different ways but it means exactly the same thing.
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yahsway
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New Test allusions to verse 15 (Rom 16:20 Heb 2:14 Rev 12) seem to indicate that the curse to the serpent has a broader application.
If its interpreted messiaically, "enmity" represents the conflict between Satan (your seed)
and Gods people.
especially Yeshua the Messiah(her Seed)
"He shall bruise your head.....you shall bruise His heel depicts the long struggle between good and evil, with God ultimately winning thru Yeshua the Messiah, the last Adam.
In its most specific sense, Yeshua has trampled Satan at the cross.
In its wider sense, the Church will eventually completely triumph over the Evil one.
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bluefrog
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Betty...I think you are getting ahead of Part 2, but I don't think anyone suggested your quoate:
"I would believe it was Jesus who would bruise the head of Satan, and not a woman."
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yahsway
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From Brad Scott at WildBranch Ministires:
"It is obvious to me that of all the beasts of the field, it seems that the serpent is doomed to wear the bad boy image.
This is probably rightfully so, but not for the reasons that most people would offer. The 'snake' is always the representation of evil and is portrayed, for all appearances sake, as the ultimate of slithering ugliness.
This is a deliberate scheme hatched by the serpent himself, with full cooperation from religion and all forms of media.
The nature of the serpent is tied directly to the Hebrew word for him. The word in Hebrew is "nachash." If you look this word up in a common lexicon you will find such descriptions as, to shine, shinning one, to enchant, or even to hiss or whisper.
You have to go to the classical Hebrew and to an etymological dictionary to get the verb or action root of this character. From the very beginning, the serpent, or the enemy of the seed of the woman, is the representation of "Learning by Experience". The best use of this word's verbal root is in Gen 29:27:
"And Laban said unto him, I pray thee, If i have found favor in thine eyes, tarry; for I have "Learned by Experience" that YHVH hath blessed me for thy sake."
As it is with most Hebrew words in their introductory context, the immediate story surrounding the word is directly connected to the meaning.This is especially true with names.
The first move of the serpent is to pervert the word of YHVH and decieve eve into eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.This is another way of simply learning by experience.
Our Father loves us as children, and it is His desire to 'raise' us according to His nurturing ways, according to His words, knowing the end from the beginning.
The very nature of the serpent is to convince the people of YHVH to follow their own ways. This can be accomplished on an individual basis or as active members of large groups.
To resign ones' self to believing that the 'devil' and all that is evil is represented by horned creatures with pitch forks or charismatic preachers offering tubs of purple kool-aid is naive at best.
2Corinthians 11"13-15
For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Messiah. And no marvel, for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. Therefore, it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness, whose end shall be according to their works."
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Betty Louise
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Now often with the Bible there were the figurative meaning and the literal meaning behind one event.
I do believe that the curse on the snake was also talking about the curse on Satan, but it was Jesus who would bruise the head of Satan and not woman.
Women have no more power over Satan then men do.
betty
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
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Betty Louise
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I do not believe it is a figure of speech. Are you saying that God lied when He said He was cursing the snake for tricking Eve? I believe the Bible. I believe too often people want to make fairy tales of the Bible. If God said the snake tricked Eve, I believe it. The Bible is not a fairy tale book.
betty
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
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bluefrog
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BETTY...Sweet Betty....Did you read my opening script here and study it any ? I am well aware that many folks feel that it was a snake or serpent actually doing the talking but all serious studies on the use of the word calls it a figure of speech. This is the reason I brought it up in the first place. I also have a Part 2 on the same subject of Figures of Speech.
Satan being called a serpent or snake is because it is a creature that most people dislike. He is also called a viper, a dragon and many other things. Jesus called him by these names as well but he also tells us that he was the most beautiful, shining angel in heaven.
As for snakes walking again...I didn't know they ever did. Besides, Satan's agenda does not show a need for more legs if he is an angel.
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Betty Louise
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Gen 3:14
So the LORD God said to the serpent:
"Because you have done this,
You are cursed more than all cattle,
And more than every beast of the field;
On your belly you shall go,
And you shall eat dust
All the days of your life.
Gen 3:15
And I will put enmity
Between you and the woman,
And between your seed and her Seed;
He shall bruise your head,
And you shall bruise His heel."
I believe satan did talk through a real snake. To this day snakes crawl on their belly because of satan causing mankind to fail through a snake.
I often wonder if after the tribulation when God removes the curse from the earth if snakes will walk again.
betty
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
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Eden
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hello, bluefrog, I'm not sure yet whether Satan-Lucifer could have made a snake to talk. I know that in the case of Balaam, the Bible specifically says that "the LORD made the a*s*s to speak":
Numbers 22:28
And the LORD opened the mouth of the a*s*s, and she said to Balaam, What have I done to you, that you have struck me these three times?
But when the Bible says, "the LORD did so and so", it is often an angel of the LORD that actually did the so and so. In the case of Balaam's a*s*s, for example, in the very next verse after the a*s*s spoke, Balaam saw the angel of the LORD stand in the path:
Numbers 22:31
Then the LORD opened the eyes of Balaam, and he saw the angel of the LORD standing in the way, and his sword drawn in his hand: and he bowed down his head, and fell flat on his face.
The Bible further shows that fallen angels or demons can inhabit swine:
Matthew 8:31
So the devils besought Him, saying, If you cast us out, suffer us to go away into the herd of swine.
We know that Lucifer-Satan can make peopletalk during "demon possession" so it may be that a powerful cherubim angel like Lucifer-Satan can also have made a literal snake-nachash to talk.
Or else, it may be that Lucifer-Satan was able to transform himself into a real-looking snake, something similar to what happened below:
2 Corinthians 11:14
And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
love, Eden
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bluefrog
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EDEN..Subject: The Serpent of Genesis 3
What I was trying to say was that using the term "Serpent" for Satan was a Figure of Speech.
Like you say NACHASH means SERPENT. You also point out that in Hebrew it refers to Hissing, which to me could mean a snake. You did not say that there was a reference to Talking though.
In Chaldee NACHASH also means Shining One, and implies brass or copper, so what is wrong with Moses using a low down slithering shining dirt eating snake as a figure of speech ?
If my wording implied that I was trying to say that NACHASH did not mean serpent then I said it wrong. I simply meant that it was used to emphasise how sorry Satan was. Please don't ask me to now explain my use of the word sorry.
There are scriptures through the bible refering Satan to different Figures of Speech. Just as an example go to Numbers 21:6-9. You will find that NACHASH, SARAPH, SARAPHIM are all synonomous for serpent, shining one and others.
Numbers 21:6 And the Lord sent "fiery serpents".....
v 7 ...That He take away the serpents from us...
v 8 And the Lord said unto Moses, "Make thee a fiery serpent and set it on a pole".
v 9 And Moses made a serpent of brass..
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Eden
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bluefrog wrote to Eden quote:
How did you miss 5174?
Miss 5174? The words in the series are ALL derived from the SAME STEM word, so there is NO fundamental difference between ANY of the words that are DERIVED from the same stem word.
love, Eden
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bluefrog
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EDEN...I can't tell if you are agreeing with me or not, probably not as usual. If not you missed my point. How did you miss 5174?
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Eden
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bluefrog wrote quote:
In Hebrew the word rendered serpent is "Nachash" (from the root word Nachash, to "shine", and means "shining one."
Genesis 3
1 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said to the woman, Yea, has God said, You shall not eat of every tree of the garden?
Strong's Concordance
Gen 3:1 Now the serpent 5175 was 1961 (8804) more subtil 6175 than any beast 2416 of the field 7704 which the LORD 3068 God 430 had made 6213 (8804)...
serpent:
5172 nachash a primitive root; properly, to hiss, i.e. whisper a (magic) spell; generally, to prognosticate:--X certainly, divine, enchanter, (use) X enchantment, learn by experience, X indeed, diligently observe.
5175 nachash, from 5172; a snake (from its hiss):--serpent.
5153 nachuwsh, apparently passive participle of 5172 (perhaps in the sense of ringing, i.e. bell-metal; or from the red color of the throat of a serpent (5175, as denominative) when hissing); coppery, i.e. (figuratively) hard:--of brass.
If there was any "shining" involved, it most likely would have been because of the coppery color of the snakes in the land of Israel:
Numbers 21:9
And Moses made a serpent of brass, and put it upon a pole, and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he beheld the serpent of brass, he lived.
beast:
2416 chay, from 2421; alive; hence, raw (flesh); fresh (plant, water, year), strong; also (as noun, especially in the feminine singular and masculine plural) life (or living thing), whether literally or figuratively:--+ age, alive, appetite, (wild) beast, company, congregation, life(-time), live(-ly), living (creature, thing), maintenance, + merry, multitude, + (be) old, quick, raw, running, springing, troop.
chay does not mean "beast" but means "anything living".
love, Eden
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Michael Harrison
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Well, everybody says that Eve bit an apple What do they have against apples that they do not have against bananas, oranges, or anything else? So whaddya think? Was 'seven' days, seven days?
But getting back to the forbidden fruit, she made a decision. That decision was to have knowledge of good and evil. That of course removed her from total dependence upon the Lord; therefore she 'died' spiritually, and then physically.
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bluefrog
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The only place I ever heard anyone use the word gay to mean happy was in the movies, even though that is what it meant, as you know.
As for the snake thang, that has always seemed weird. It has even been explained that a spirit entered a snake. They never did tell how they got it to talk, having no vocal cords. Furthermore, the other descriptions did not speak of a snake. I will bet that satan is enjoying the figure of speech attempt. Maybe when he is turned loose some will be looking for a snake.
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Michael Harrison
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That was really good. Perhaps it was too short. But it leads me to wonder, are you different than a frog? Did you design that to lead one to wonder?
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Michael Harrison
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![[happyhappy]](graemlins/happyhappy.gif) LOL bluefrog!
quote:
Before I get started talking about the above subject I would like to confess something. I was born in April 1936. Most of my young life I was gay. In the late sixties I was no longer gay. What are you thinking right now ? The reason I was no longer gay in the sixties was that gay did not mean happy any longer. Once I realized that the meaning of gay meant something else, I became happy and still am. Shall we proceed ? hehe
I'm not as up in years as you, but I do remember when that word meant something decent. However, for some reason I never liked the word as a descriptive word.
Now I'll read the rest of the post. hehe!
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bluefrog
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Before I get started talking about the above subject I would like to confess something. I was born in April 1936. Most of my young life I was gay. In the late sixties I was no longer gay. What are you thinking right now ? The reason I was no longer gay in the sixties was that gay did not mean happy any longer. Once I realized that the meaning of gay meant something else, I became happy and still am. Shall we proceed ? hehe
I would like to generate a discussion about Satan, a subject seldom spoken of from the pulpit, except for minor references. When Satan is spoken of or thought about what do you usually think of ? A snake, the devil, an ugly discolored character with horns, a pitchfork, burning in hell, an angel of light, a shining one, Adam and Eve, the wise one, a beast, or other assumptions taken from the work of artists?
I'm going to try to stick to Gen 3 but we can get into the rest of the Word later. My attempt is to introduce some thoughts here and not write a book doing it. In Gen 3 as in the rest of the bible, there are many Figures of Speech used and that alone has misguided us just like my introduction above did. I sure hope you understood what I said.
In Gen 3 we have neither allegory, myth, legend nor fable, but literal historical facts set forth, and emphasised by the use of certain Figures of Speech. All the confusion has arisen from taking literally what is expressed by Figures or from taking figuratively what is literal. A figure of speech is never used except for calling attention to, emphasising, and intensifying, the reality of a literal sense, and the truth. In Gen 3:14-15 and Rev 20:2, the words "old serpent" are used, that is a snake isn't it? Nope, wrong translation. Rev 20:2 points out it is the Devil. All this fits from the beginning to the end.
Wait ! It also says he is a serpent or a snake. That it does, however, in Hebrew the word rendered serpent is "Nachash" (from the root word Nachash, to "shine", and means "shining one". In 2 Cor 11:14 Satan is refered to as an Angel of light, Nachash, a shining angel, that Eve paid great attention to and supposing his great knowledge, a superior being, not a snake. Remember satans costum ?
Ezekiel 28:11-19 points out that satan was a cherub. His presense in Eden, the "garden of Elohim", perfect in beauty, his being perfect in his ways since he was created until iniquity found him, and because of his beauty was lifted up. Remember the brass and copper and jewels ?
Almost through.
The word "Beast" in 3:1 "chay" denotes a "living being" but it is wrong to translate it "zoa" and beasts in Rev 4 as well. Both mean LIVING CREATURE. Satan is spoken of as being "more wise than any other living creature which Jahovah Elohim had made". Even if the word Beast is retained it does not say that either a serpent or satan was a beast but only that he was more wise than any other living being. Eve held conversation with a fascinating angel of light (a glorious angel) with vast knowledge. When satan is spoken of as a serpent, it is the fugure Hypocatastasis or Implication; it no more means a snake than when Dan is called one in Gen 49:17,or an animal when Nero is called a lion, Herod a fox or Judah is called a lions whelp. It shows that something more real and truer to truth is intended, more real than the letter of the word.
This enough for now. Later I will get into the "thou shall bruise His heel" and "He shall crush thy head". Also, "On thy belly thou shall go", "dust thou shall eat",....all figures of speech just like in Gen. 3
rivit
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