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Topic: God bless the women!
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bluefrog
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posted
Our Short Hair in the USA ?
Oh Well, you asked me to furnish you scripture, and I did. You did see it didn't you ? If any of you were there back then I will take your word for it. If you were not alive back then and you still want it your way, that's fine with me.
Is everybody happy now?
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Eden
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Caretaker wrote quote:
4) Men DID NOT have long hair in the time of Jesus of Nazareth nor during the early Church regardless of how the European artists painted Him/them a thousand years later.
The hair of the Nazarite was probably extraordinarily long; but I think that the hair of the common man in Israel-Judah was considerably longer than our short hair in the USA.
Also, we have examples from history on the stelae and bas-reliefs of Assyria, for example, which clearly show the hair style of the Israelites as fairly long. For instance, this is bas-relief pix of King Jehu of northern Israel bowing down to King Shamaneser III: 
love, Eden
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Caretaker
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quote:
Originally posted by bluefrog:
CARETAKER...I'm gonna pull a EDEN on ya....Where does it say that in the bible ?
Just joking.
I will fill-in the blanks when I have a bit more time, and include scripture, such as when Paul ended his vow.
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A Servant of Christ,
Drew
1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..
Posts: 3978 | From: Council Grove, KS USA | Registered: Jun 2002
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bluefrog
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CARETAKER...I'm gonna pull a EDEN on ya....Where does it say that in the bible ?
Just joking.
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Caretaker
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Complicated issue but just quickly from memory:
1) Mens and women's clothing was makedly different in the culture of the early Church, and could be told easily apart.
2) Women with shaved heads and short hair were temple prostitutes.
3) The women were told to keep silent, as the services were not in the Synagogue but held from house to house. The women ran the household. It was causing disruption in the services and this was what Paul was addressing.
4) Men DID NOT have long hair in the time of Jesus of Nazareth nor during the early Church regardless of how the European artists painted Him/them a thousand years later. It was when the Jew took the Nazarite Vow that their hair was not cut. Sampson, John, and Paul were examples of the Nazarite and Paul writes about ending his vow and cutting his hair.
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A Servant of Christ,
Drew
1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..
Posts: 3978 | From: Council Grove, KS USA | Registered: Jun 2002
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bluefrog
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From all I get out of this is that there were customs from the past and those old customs were interfering with the new covenant. Paul tried to be politically correct by telling of the old and saying it wasn't important now. The old customs weren't really hurting anything or anybody so he said, decide for yourself, it just isn't necessary in the new church.
Like you said, none of it is all that important, but it got into the discussion & then different opinions came out of it.
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Michael Harrison
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quote:
Bluefrog wroted: quote:
I said the women were asked to keep it down and ask questions at home. EDEN asked: Who asked them to do that, the Ruler of the Synagogue?
Bluefrog answer: Paul. 1 Cor 14:33-35 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints. v34 Let your women keep silence in the churches; for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law. v35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home; for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.
I still think this sounds like legalism. I do not yet see any practical reason for, in his letter, making this statement to the people. For it would contradict something else, say for example, circumcision! ! ! After all, if it was wrong to be circumcised, as though that was necessary in order to 'keep' the law (and such a big case was made of it), then 'keeping quiet' because it was the old custom, would be the same. So it is a weak point in scripture for me. Maybe they just had a female uprising, and they had to quell it to keep it from getting out of hand. ![[happyhappy]](graemlins/happyhappy.gif)
Posts: 3273 | From: Charlotte N.C. | Registered: Sep 2007
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bluefrog
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EDEN...I was also busy and didn't have time to answer yesterday. Your questions are good ones, and are on subjects seldom discussed. However, not all answers are spoken of in the scriptures. For example: As far as I know the scriptures do not tell about the women sitting on one side and the men on the other. It does not explain much on how women decorated their clothing, but did so, except in church, because their clothing was so similar. The clothing issue was determined by looking at paintings and carvings found from that time period. I only brought up the seperation of sexes in church because it could be interesting even though not of much value.
EDEN asked in response to bluefrog comments:
In the church it seemed important to distinguish the guys from the gals. EDEN asked, Where does it say that ?
Bluefrog Answer: See Above
Both men and women wore dresses. EDEN said, Not dresses - maybe similar garments, not North Hollywood.
Bluefrog Answer: Yes your right. It was a loose statement (pardon my style). Some pastors use it as well. They wore tunics, cloaks, girdles. See opening comments.
I used the term Priests for those that taught and preached. EDEN said: Priests ? Rabbi maybe and others talked too, like Jesus.
Bluefrog Answer: Yes, I know, another loose term but not wrong. Isaiah 61:6 But ye shall be named the Priests of the LORD; men shall call you the Ministers of our God.....and Rev 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests, and we shall reign on the earth. The catholics use this term but not usually protestants.
I said the women were asked to keep it down and ask questions at home. EDEN asked: Who asked them to do that, the Ruler of the Synagogue?
Bluefrog answer: Paul. 1 Cor 14:33-35 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints. v34 Let your women keep silence in the churches; for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law. v35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home; for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.
I said Ladies with short hair or shaved heads were to cover it. Guys with long hair were disgusting. EDEN said: The men in Israel all wore long hair, short hair was disgusting.
Bluefrog answer: 1 Cor 11:14-15 Doth not nature itself teach you, that, if a man have long hair, it is a shame unto him ? v15 But if a woman have long hair, it is a glory to her; for her hair is given her for a covering.
Note also: v 16 But if any man seem to be contentious, we have no such custom, neither the churches of God.
I said the Glory of a womans hair is the reflection of God. EDEN asked: Where in the bible does it say that?
Bluefrog answer: 1 Cor 11:9-12 Neither was the man created for the woman; but woman for the man.
v 10 For this cause ought the woman to have power on her head because of the angels. v11 Nevertheless neither is the man without the woman, neither the woman without the man, in the Lord. v12 For as the woman is of the man, even so is the man also by the woman; but all things of God. Note: because of the angels, see Gen 6:2. That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair, and they took them wives of all which they chose.
Well, I hope this covers it. I am sorry if some do not approve of my style of expression.
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Eden
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bluefrog wrote to Eden quote:
...I'll answer your questions, but where have you been? I think this was all gone over already.
I've been busy with lots of projects; I have limited time. If you would be so kind ("AWRIGHT, but where have you been?"), one never knows whom the Lord may have put in the pew to hear this on the bbs.
And obviously I had a lot of questions about your post, so let's use it as a teaching instrument, whatever the results and effort may be, eh?
Who knows who is sitting in the pew?
bluefrog had written to Eden quote:
...I'll answer your questions, but where have you been? I think this was all gone over already.
Could be...but since you have been "over it before", you should be able to give me 1, 2, 3, answers.
Because the fact is, bluefrog, to this day I still don't understand this woman hair thing and the covering of its power and all that, because of the angels...I still don't get it so perhaps, since ye have been over it before, you can help me along here, at your convenience of course.
But I still think that somewhere this woman hair thing must be connected to the hierarchy that God has established, God, Jesus, man/husband, woman/wife, and child.
Somewhere this woman hair thing must have something to do with this hierarchy thing, or perhaps not?
Could the Holy Spirit have included in the New Testament that the women should wear a cover on their hair, what, if the woman's hair was short of if the woman was shaven?
In any case, why WOULD a woman's hair be SHAVEN in Israel?
Or, why WOULD a woman's hair be SHORT in Israel?
The pressure to conform in the matter of length of hair must have been enormous in Israel, and it is not likely that ANY woman in Israel in those days "would have SHORT hair" just because "she liked it that way".
So what are the Biblical reasons why a woman's hair might be SHAVEN or SHORT?
love, Eden
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bluefrog
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AWRIGHT...I'll answer your questions, but where have you been? I think this was all gone over already. I'll get back to you.
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Eden
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dear brother bluefrog, you wrote quote:
In the Church it seemed important to distinguish the guys from the gals.
Really? What is the Biblical foundation for that statement? This is what I read in the Bible:
Galatians 3:28
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
bluefrog, you also said quote:
Everyone was wearing dresses, men and women.
Well what, was it Ireland? Dresses, no, but they were wearing maybe similar garments, but I assure you that No MAN BACK THEN EVER MISTOOK a man for a woman because of some alleged similar garments?
dear brother bluefrog, you also wrote quote:
The priest would do most of the talkin and teaching, ETC.
The priests? I assume you mean the "rabbi" back then did most of the talking in the synagogue? Probably so. Although the rabbis (or "priests" as you call them), did allow Fellows like Jesus to "stand up and read the day's verses of Scripture":
Luke 4
14 And Jesus returned in the power of the Spirit into Galilee: and there went out a fame of Him through all the region round about.
15 And He taught in their synagogues, being glorified of all.
16 And He came also to Nazareth, where He had been brought up: and, as His custom was, He went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and He stood up to read.
bluefrog, you continued quote:
The guys were allowed to ask questions n' stuff.
cool. guy power.
And you said quote:
The women were asked to keep it down and ask the old man at home later if she had questions.
Who asked the women to be quiet and ask their husbands at home? Who? The ruler of the synagogue?
Luke 13:14
And the ruler of the synagogue answered with indignation, because Jesus had healed on the sabbath day, and {the ruler of the synagogue] said to the people, There are six days in which men ought to work: let them therefore come in those six days to be healed, but not on the sabbath day.
Did the ruler of the synagogue ask the women to be quiet, or was it just "custom"?
bluefrog, you continued quote:
There was one little problem. With everyone wearing dresses...
This is NOT West Hollywood or The Castro District that we are talking about but the synagogues of Israel and of the diaspora: As you said, "There was one little problem. With everyone wearing dresses..."
And then you continued quote:
"And not all the guys wearing beards and other problems...
Like the women wearing beards and the men wearing dresses, there were lots of problems...
2 Thessalonians 3:7
For yourselves know how you ought to follow us: for we did not behave ourselves disorderly among you.
And then, bluefrog, you said quote:
they said OK... Ladies, if you don't have long hair and it is short or shaved cover it. Now, as for you guys with long hair..you are disgusting, so don't do that anymore.
The men of Israel all wore long hair. Short hair was disgusting. ![[roll on floor]](graemlins/6.gif)
And then you said quote:
About this GLORY thang...1 Cor 10:31 Whether therefore you eat, or drink, or whatsoever you do, do all in the glory of God.
Amen to that.
Genesis 4:7
If you do well, will you not be accepted? But if you do not do well, sin lies at the door...
You ended by saying, quote:
The Glory of a woman is the reflection of God.
What is your Biblical basis for saying this?
love, Eden
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bluefrog
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MICHAEL HARRISON..Did you really have to bring this subject back up again...? LOL !
OK-You guys are gonna keep tryin, so I will too.
Mr. S...In the Church it seemed important to distinguish the guys from the gals. Everyone was wearing dresses, men and women. The priest would do most of the talkin and teaching, ETC.
The guys were allowed to ask questions n' stuff.
The women were asked to keep it down and ask the old man at home later if she had questions.
There was one little problem. With everyone wearing dresses and not all the guys wearing beards and other problems, they said OK... Ladies, if you don't have long hair and it is short or shaved cover it. Now, for you guys with long hair..you are disgusting, so don't do that anymore.
About this GLORY thang...1 Cor 10:31 Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all in the glory of God.
The Glory of a woman is the reflection of God.
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Eden
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bluefrog wrote to becauseHElives quote:
it is pretty obvious that for many moons that women wearing veils and other such stuff are customary ...
Genesis 24
64 And Rebekah lifted up her eyes, and when she saw Isaac, she lighted off the camel.
65 For she had said to the servant, Who is this man who is walking in the field to meet us? And the servant had said, It is my master: therefore she took a VEIL and covered herself.
Strong's Concordance
Gen 24:65 For she [had] said 559 (8799) unto the servant 5650, What 4310 man 376 [is] this 1976 that walketh 1980 (8802) in the field 7704 to meet us 7125 (8800)? And the servant 5650 [had] said 559 (8799), It [is] my master 113: therefore she took 3947 (8799) a vail 6809, and covered herself 3680 (8691).
Gen 38:14 And she put 5493 0 her widow's 491 garments 899 off 5493 (8686) from her, and covered her 3680 (8762) with a vail 6809, and wrapped herself 5968 (8691), and sat in 3427 (8799) an open 5869 place 6607, which [is] by the way 1870 to Timnath 8553; for she saw 7200 (8804) that Shelah 7956 was grown 1431 (8804), and she was not given 5414 (8738) unto him to wife 802.
6809 tsa`iyph tsaw-eef' from an unused root meaning to wrap over; a veil, vail.
Rebekah put on a veil when she realized it was Isaac approaching her in the field.
And later Jacob did not realize that Laban had given him Leah to marry first, undoubtedly because Leah was wearing a veil.
Genesis 29:23
And it came to pass in the evening, that he took Leah his daughter, and brought her to him; and he went in (sexually) unto her.
Genesis 29:25
And it came to pass, that in the morning, look, it was Leah! And he said to Laban, What is this you have done to me? Did not I serve with you for Rachel? Why then have you beguiled me?
love, Eden
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WildB
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quote:
Originally posted by Michael Harrison:
Wish we had a school here (or a topic led by someone ejucated) which addressed the customs and practices of that time. I bet some insight could be gained, because there are some curious things in some of the wording, of some of the passages, of some of the epistles. I know I have heard from time to time, some sermons on the radio. But I have forgotten what I heard.
In Corinth the "ladies" of the locals temple were shaved.
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That is all.....
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Michael Harrison
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Wish we had a school here (or a topic led by someone ejucated) which addressed the customs and practices of that time. I bet some insight could be gained, because there are some curious things in some of the wording, of some of the passages, of some of the epistles. I know I have heard from time to time, some sermons on the radio. But I have forgotten what I heard.
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bluefrog
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becauseheLIVES....SAID...Please provide scripture reference for this idiotic, absurd, unfounded remark: Covering with a veil was a pagan practice as were other religious practices.
Thanks for the compliments.
All things are not in scripture and I don't have a Koran or other pagan documents but it is pretty obvious that for many moons that women wearing veils and other such stuff are customary and for the reasons described in the scripture.
(See the script just above here)
There are women in the US today that observe this practice. In the Protestant Churches it is not a practice as you well know. Furthermore, the men and women do not wear dresses as they did at that time.
One other thing is that I am sure that the covering of the head was not to show that she was a good lookin babe.
Thank You,
The absurd, unfounded idiot.
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bluefrog
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EDEN...You asked, What does the "power (exousia)on her head" refer to again ?
I had to go and open my big mouth on this subject didn't I ?
The word power (exousia) Greek: expresses the authority to do as he or she chooses. I chose to use my exousia and you see where it got me.
Years ago my wife was invited to a Catholic church by a relative she was visiting. They asked her to wear a scarf over her head. I was well aware that the Catholics practiced pagan beliefs. It got my curiosity up so I started digging in to see what this was all about. It was and still is not an easy study. Why it is of such an importance now is beyound me. In the first century of the church there was a lot to learn. Wearing a covering over the head was customary for women when they went to church to pray. After searching the bible and a stack of commentaries I could only conclude that Paul went along with it but pointed out some issues.
If a man has long hair like a woman's, he is disgraced, but with long hair the woman gains glory in her position of subjection to man.
1 Cor 11:13-15. In v 15 it is also observed that in their physical appearance in worship the woman should be recognized as a woman and the man as a man.
The distinction is not to be blurred in their realization that they are mutually dependent (v11) the man on the woman and the woman on the man.
Finally, Paul said that if a woman has long hair it is a natural covering.
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scythewieldor
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Dear Eden,
The nature of glory is that it provokes an attraction of attention. One does not have to try to give it attention.
quote:
Co 15:40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.
When you look into the sky at night, if there is a moon, you do not need help looking at it. Little stars do not draw as much attention as big stars.
So, in reiteration, a woman with a personal glory in the flesh that is greater than the same of another woman could have more persuasive power.
From the illustrations that I have seen of feminine garb from the days of old, the things they wore over their bodies seemed simple rather than fashioned to stimulate and take advantage of the power of lust. However, the hair could still remain a feature of serious distraction. Have you ever read Dake's discription of hair fashion from that era?
Eden, thank you.
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scythewieldor
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Dear Bluefrog,
How pagan was Moses?
quote:
2 Co 3:7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?
9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.
10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.
11 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.
12 ¶ Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech:
13 And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:
14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.
15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.
16 Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.
This passage talks about two glories. One glory came upon the face of Moses when he encountered the Lord. This glory was so great that the people who looked at him could not look for very long because of the discomfort.
The glory that was fading from the face of Moses had it's source in the Lord whose glory never fades. The law was what Moses gave Israel so that they would not have to deal directly with the Lord.
quote:
Ex 29:18 ¶ And all the people saw the thunderings, and the lightnings, and the noise of the trumpet, and the mountain smoking: and when the people saw it, they removed, and stood afar off.
19 And they said unto Moses, Speak thou with us, and we will hear: but let not God speak with us, lest we die.
20 And Moses said unto the people, Fear not: for God is come to prove you, and that his fear may be before your faces, that ye sin not.
21 And the people stood afar off, and Moses drew near unto the thick darkness where God was.
So, the glory on Moses face had an effect on the minds of Israelites. They did not like that effect. They asked for a veil to blind them so that they wouldn't have to face the glory of God in any way.
So, Moses wore the veil but not for his own benefit. It was easier, cheaper, and more efficient for him to wear a veil than for everybody else to wear a veil.
They got a veil and a law.
And continuing to refuse to come to the Lord in faith, their minds continue to be blinded. That same veil is represented by the law which is read in synagogues.
In the church, however, men do not wear a veil, for they are the image and glory of the Lord. We approach the Lord by faith as sons.
quote:
Heb 2:10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.
How pagan was Sarah?
Here is another, less obvious, presentation of a vail.
quote:
Ge 20:6 And God said unto him in a dream, Yea, I know that thou didst this in the integrity of thy heart; for I also withheld thee from sinning against me: therefore suffered I thee not to touch her.
7 Now therefore restore the man his wife; for he is a prophet, and he shall pray for thee, and thou shalt live: and if thou restore her not, know thou that thou shalt surely die, thou, and all that are thine.
8 ¶ Therefore Abimelech rose early in the morning, and called all his servants, and told all these things in their ears: and the men were sore afraid.
9 Then Abimelech called Abraham, and said unto him, What hast thou done unto us? and what have I offended thee, that thou hast brought on me and on my kingdom a great sin? thou hast done deeds unto me that ought not to be done.
10 And Abimelech said unto Abraham, What sawest thou, that thou hast done this thing?
11 And Abraham said, Because I thought, Surely the fear of God is not in this place; and they will slay me for my wife’s sake.
12 And yet indeed she is my sister; she is the daughter of my father, but not the daughter of my mother; and she became my wife.
13 And it came to pass, when God caused me to wander from my father’s house, that I said unto her, This is thy kindness which thou shalt shew unto me; at every place whither we shall come, say of me, He is my brother.
14 ¶ And Abimelech took sheep, and oxen, and menservants, and womenservants, and gave them unto Abraham, and restored him Sarah his wife.
15 And Abimelech said, Behold, my land is before thee: dwell where it pleaseth thee.
16 And unto Sarah he said, Behold, I have given thy brother a thousand pieces of silver: behold, he is to thee a covering of the eyes, unto all that are with thee, and with all other: thus she was reproved.
Abimelech almost destroyed his kingdom by taking the wife of Abraham. He had done so because Sarah was so pretty, and she was presented as unmarried.
As a way to keep this sort of thing from happening, he gave Abraham a thousand pieces of silver for a covering of the eyes unto all that were with her.
A thousand pieces of silver would have been enough for veils to cover the eyes of everybody that came into the presence of Sarah.
Or, she could make a veil to cover one face- her own.
So, veils are to cover glories which could, otherwise, cause discomfort or stumbling.
Bluefrog,...
quote:
Ps 19:8 The statutes of the LORD are right, rejoicing the heart: the commandment of the LORD is pure, enlightening the eyes.
There are only two responses to a commandment. Those who are self-willed criticize both the commandment and those who stand up for the commandment.
Those who stand up for the commandment do so because, in the keeping of the commandment, their eyes have been enlightened as the Word says happens.
quote:
1Co 14:33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.
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WildB
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by becauseHElives:
so what was your point ....
I wish I was still married , for at times my thoughts betray me.
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That is all.....
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becauseHElives
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posted
so what was your point ....
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
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WildB
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quote:
Originally posted by becauseHElives:
True WildB, and Paul tells the women in the Church not to do as they do!
Of coarse this sinfulness is not to be indulged in outside of a God full/sanctioned union.
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That is all.....
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becauseHElives
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True WildB, and Paul tells the women in the Church not to do as they do!
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
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WildB
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In the Corinth's pagan temple side there were temple sexual helpers, women who had shaved heads.
This is to whom Paul refers.
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That is all.....
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becauseHElives
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quote:
bluefrog,
Covering with a veil was a pagan practice as were other religious practices
please provide scripture reference for this idiotic, absurd, unfounded remark in the above quote!
The scripture are very plain and easily discerned by the Spirit of Him that gave us scripture...
The subject of head coverings has been a source of confusion for many believers in the Messiah. However, in the below study it will be evident that the reason why it is a source of confusion is because of a lack of understanding as to its purpose. We can learn its purpose by looking at one place in scripture where it is addressed quite in depth. This is in 1Corinthians chapter 11. Based on the context of the study and all the scriptures involved, it can be concluded that this chapter is talking about the need to cover our own glory while praying or prophesying and instead let Yahweh's glory shine forth.
Within 1Corinthians chapter 11 we find that there are certain principles within the word of Yahweh that are covered after the statements of whether to cover or not cover one's head. Because of this, I believe that understanding would be increased by covering the principles first. Afterward, we will go through the chapter verse by verse.
When studying a controversial subject in the word of Yahweh, it is good to begin by establishing things that we know to be true and then learning new things from the word of Yahweh and building upon them.
Introduction
One thing we know to be true is that Yahushua saves us from our sins and we know that He is our head.
1Corinthians 11:3 ~ But I would have you know, that the head of every man is the Messiah; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of the Messiah is YAHWEH.
According to the next scripture, men must not cover their heads or they will be dishonoring Yahushua the Messiah:
1Corinthians 11:4 ~ Every man praying or prophesying, having his head covered, dishonoureth his head.
Verse 7 tells us why men should not cover their heads in prayer and prophesying:
1Corinthians 11:7 - For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of YAHWEH:
So men represent the image and glory of Yahweh. In fact, this scripture says that man is the glory and image of Yahweh. This is given as the reason as to why a man "indeed ought not to cover his head". Therefore this scripture is in essence saying "Do not cover up the glory of Yahweh while in His presence".
Therefore, it is clear that the above verses say:
1. Yahushua the Messiah is the spiritual head of man
2. Man is the image and glory of Yahweh.
3. Man should not cover his head (Yahweh's glory) while praying or prophesying or he will dishonor his Head, Yahushua.
The Glory of Yahweh?
We come now to a more complicated portion of this study. It is important to concentrate on the words written here in order to grasp the full meaning of why a man should not cover his head. We will work from this foundation to discover why a woman should cover their head.
We know that Adam was the image and glory of Yahweh.
Genesis 1:26 ~ And Elohim said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
However, as we all know, Adam sinned. How can man now be considered the image and glory of Yahweh? Because of our sin, our image and glory is no longer the true image and glory of Yahweh. After all, His image is a righteous image and His glory a righteous glory. But we have sinned. So how can a sinner still be the image and glory of Yahweh?
In reality there is only ONE who is the express image and glory of Yahweh.
Hebr 1:1 (NKJV) ~ Elohim, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, 2 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds; 3 who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, 4 having become so much better than the angels, as He has by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
So Yahushua, the second Adam is the true image and glory of Yahweh. Many other scriptures we will read agree with this concept. Please note that Yahushua is the 'brightness' of Yahweh's glory. He is the WORD.
John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
So He is the Word and again He is the glory of the Father. We also know that the word is a lamp, a light:
Psalm 119:105 (NKJV) ~ Your word is a lamp to my feet, And a light to my path.
And Yahushua said:
John 8:12 (NKJV) ~ Then Yahushua spoke to them again, saying, "I am the light of the world. He who follows Me shall not walk in darkness, but have the light of life."
So Yahushua is the light of Yahweh's glory, the word and the express image of Yahweh fully.
Adam, the first man was created in the image of Yahweh but he sinned. Yahushua came into the world as the 'second' Adam who did not sin. It is He who lives in us.
Roma 5:14 (NKJV) ~ Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come. 15 But the free gift is not like the offense. For if by the one man's offense many died, much more the grace of Yahweh and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Yahushua the Messiah , abounded to many. 16 And the gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned. For the judgment which came from one offense resulted in condemnation, but the free gift which came from many offenses resulted in justification. 17 For if by the one man's offense death reigned through the one, much more those who receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Yahushua the Messiah.) 18 Therefore, as through one man's offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man's righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life. 19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man's obedience many will be made righteous.
So again, it is truth that only the man Yahushua is the true image and glory of Yahweh. We (sinners) cannot alone be His full image and glory. But Yahushua IN us gives us the righteousness and justification we need (through His blood 'covering' our sins) to be the image and glory of Yahweh. Yahushua is living in us, and while praying it is not our own corrupted image that Yahweh sees but the Righteous Image, HIS glory Yahushua the Messiah IN US. This is the true undefiled glory and image of Yahweh.
Gala 2:20 (NKJV) ~ "I have been crucified with the Messiah; it is no longer I who live, but the Messiah that lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of Yahweh, who loved me and gave Himself for me.
So while praying and prophesying, the man must be sure not to cover his head, for in Yahushua he represents the glory of Yahweh. When we pray, we need to let Yahweh's glory (Yahushua) be uncovered and let our own glory be covered. With this understanding, let's read 1Cor. 11:7 again:
1Corinthians 11:7 ~ For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of YAHWEH:
We must not be in Yahweh's presence (during prayer and prophesying) without the glory of Yahushua upon us. To cover our heads with any other veil is not sufficient. We need the veil/covering of Yahushua the Messiah over us. For it is through Him that we are saved and have righteousness.
2Corinthians 3 and 4 are important chapters that will give us some insight to the importance of this. First let's examine its context:
2Cor 3:1 (NKJV) ~ Do we begin again to commend ourselves? Or do we need, as some others, epistles of commendation to you or letters of commendation from you? 2 You are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read by all men; 3 clearly you are an epistle of the Messiah, ministered by us, written not with ink but by the Spirit of the living Elohim, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of flesh, that is, of the heart.
As a backdrop, Paul's point here is that they do not need to commend or recommend themselves. They do not need some letter of recommendation from them or anyone because the Corinthians themselves are an epistle or 'letter' of the Messiah which is written and read by all. Later in the book, he writes:
2Cor 10:18 (NKJV) For not he who commends himself is approved, but whom Yahweh commends.
This is also true of any believer in Yahushua. It is Yahushua the Messiah who commends us before all and before Yahweh. In reality it is Yahushua the Messiah who founded the assembly at Corinth in Acts 18.
4 And we have such trust through the Messiah toward Yahweh. 5 Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think of anything as being from ourselves, but our sufficiency is from Yahweh,
So Paul recognizes that they themselves did not establish them, but in reality Yahushua in them established them.
6 who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
It is true that the law condemns us, because we have not always kept it. We need justification through the righteousness of Yahushua the Messiah. Of course, now that we have been justified in Yahushua we ought not say it is acceptable to break the law again. It is for this reason Yahushua had to die for us in the first place.
7 But if the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance, which glory was passing away, 8 how will the ministry of the Spirit not be more glorious? 9 For if the ministry of condemnation had glory, the ministry of righteousness exceeds much more in glory.10 For even what was made glorious had no glory in this respect, because of the glory that excels. 11 For if what is passing away was glorious, what remains is much more glorious.
Now here is the important part of the chapter. Please note that it is THE GLORY that IS passing away, not Yahweh's standard of righteousness! The whole of Moses' ministry was the giving of Yahweh's commandments. It is Yahweh's standard of righteousness. But the ministry of Yahushua is one of SALVATION through His righteousness.
John 1:17 (NKJV) ~ For the law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Yahushua the Messiah.
The ministry of salvation and His righteousness has much greater glory than the one that condemned us with the sentence of death.
12 Therefore, since we have such hope, we use great boldness of speech-- 13 unlike Moses, who put a veil over his face so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the end of what was passing away.
Again, what is passing away is the 'glory', not Yahweh's standard of righteousness. Unlike Moses who needed to put a veil on his face when giving Yahweh's commandments (His face shone), we need to let the greater glory (from the ministry of salvation through Yahushua the Messiah) shine!
14 But their minds were blinded. For until this day the same veil remains unlifted in the reading of the Old Testament, because the veil is taken away in the Messiah.15 But even to this day, when Moses is read, a veil lies on their heart.16 Nevertheless when one turns to Yahweh, the veil is taken away.
The law is just too holy, spiritual and righteous when we read it unless we have forgiveness for our sins through the righteousness of Yahushua the Messiah in us! Therefore, that veil will remain unless one turns to Yahweh through His Son.
17 Now Yahweh is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of Yahweh is, there is liberty.
Not liberty to sin again but liberty to come unto Yahweh without fear of condemnation if we have sinned.
18 But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of Yahweh, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as by the Spirit of Yahweh.
The reason that we with an "unveiled face" are looking in a mirror at the glory of Yahweh is that the fullness of the Messiah's glory / righteousness is in us! When we look at the full glory of Yahweh, we see:
1. The lesser glory of Yahweh in the ministry of condemnation which was the 'light', the 'word', showing us our sin.
2. The greater glory of Yahweh in the righteousness of Yahushua the Messiah. (Which if we choose can be in us!)
As we grow in the Spirit, we see as in a mirror the full glory of Yahweh. In that mirror we see the light/the torah/the standard for righteousness, and therefore our sins. The light/the word (Yahushua) is what convicts us of our sins. This is the lesser glory.
But also in that mirror we also see then we see the righteousness of Yahushua in us, this is the greater glory! Therefore "as by the Spirit of Yahweh" we grow in His knowledge and become more and more obedient to His will, we are being transformed from "glory to glory" or from one glory to another by the Spirit of Yahweh. Now read this again with this as a backdrop:
18 But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of Yahweh, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as by the Spirit of Yahweh.
It is only with the unveiled face that we can truly see the lesser and greater glory and thus be transformed! In Yahushua we are the image and glory of Yahweh. When we examine that image of the glory and righteousness of Yahweh, we begin to be transformed into His image. And with this, other scriptures agree:
Roma 8:28 (NKJV) ~ And we know that all things work together for good to those who love Yahweh, to those who are the called according to His purpose. 29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.
So we are being transformed from glory to glory into the image of Yahushua the Messiah. It is HIS image that we must bear.
4:1 Therefore, since we have this ministry, as we have received mercy, we do not lose heart. 2 But we have renounced the hidden things of shame, not walking in craftiness nor handling the word of Yahweh deceitfully, but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of Yahweh. 3 But even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, 4 whose minds the elohim of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of the Messiah, who is the image of Yahweh, should shine on them.
The good news of the 'glory of Yahushua the Messiah' is veiled to those who do not know Him and therefore are perishing. It is veiled because satan has blinded them who do not believe. For if they believed, then "the LIGHT of the glad tidings of the glory of Messiah" would SHINE ON THEM and they would be declared righteous before Yahweh.
What is the glad tidings/good news of the glory of the Messiah? It is this:
Instead of us trusting in our own glory to approach the throne of Yahweh (which would cause our sins to be made manifest) and instead of covering what could have been the glory of Yahweh (our heads) when approaching Yahweh we can now come to Yahweh with the glory and image of Yahushua the Messiah fully upon us! So again, we need HIS Glory to SHINE when in the presence of Yahweh both in prayer and in prophesying! Cover it not!
Continuing...
5 For we do not preach ourselves, but the Messiah Yahushua the Master, and ourselves your bondservants for Yahushua's sake. 6 For it is the Elohim who commanded light to shine out of darkness, who has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of Yahweh in the face of Yahushua the Messiah.
Verse 6 is so important and it confirms everything we have read up to this point. Yahweh commanded the light to shine out of the darkness in our hearts/minds to give the LIGHT of the knowledge of the glory of Yahweh IN THE FACE OF Yahushua THE MESSIAH. In praying or prophesying it must be the 'brightness of the glory' and perfect 'image' of Yahweh in the face of Yahushua the Messiah that Father Yahweh must see. Remember, this is the reason Paul gave in 1Corinthians 11 that men should not cover their heads.
7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellence of the power may be of Yahweh and not of us.
And this, my brothers, is a treasure in our otherwise weak earthen vessels to show forth Yahweh's AWESOME power in redeeming our souls! HalleluYah!
Therefore, even though we are unveiled or uncovered by a garment of our own, we are 'covered with the brightness of the glory of Yahweh' who is Yahushua the Messiah. In prayer or prophesying, the only veil we need is the flesh of Yahushua the Messiah. Only then can we even approach the presence of Yahweh:
Hebr 10:19 (NKJV) ~ Therefore, brethren, having boldness to enter the Holiest by the blood of Yahushua, 20 by a new and living way which He consecrated for us, through the veil, that is, His flesh, 21 and having a High Priest over the house of Yahweh, 22 let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water. 23 Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful.
Thus, for a man to put any other veil upon His head is to deny the sufficiency of the veil of Yahushua. There is a reason that the veil to the holy of holies (wherein lies the mercy seat) was split in two.
If it is the glory of Yahweh in the face of Yahushua the Messiah that is now seen by Yahweh on the head of man, then it must be important that a man uncover his head. It is because a man in Yahushua is in reality the image and glory of Yahweh through the face of Yahushua the Messiah that his head must not be not covered!
Now with this in mind, let's again review the verses dealing with the uncovering of the man's head:
1Corinthians 11:3 ~ But I would have you know, that the head of every man is the Messiah; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of the Messiah is YAHWEH.
1Corinthians 11:4 ~ Every man praying or prophesying, having his (physical) head covered, dishonoureth his (Spiritual) head.
Now we can understand what that means! When a man covers his head in prayer, he is dishonoring Yahushua the Messiah, the One whose glory should be made manifest unto Yahweh.
1Corinthians 11:7 - For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of YAHWEH:
Many give their reasons as to why a man should or should not cover his head. But this scripture already gave us the reason. We only need to dig a little deeper and we can grasp the full meaning. As we have seen, verse 7 is quite a loaded verse.
Upon reading what is often called the 'Old testament' (I prefer to say Law and Prophets), we see that men ought not to cover their heads. On the surface, it would seem contradictory that Paul would say that men ought not cover their heads when it is written in the Law that the Priests 'must' cover their heads. The High Priest wore a miter (Heb. #4701 mitsnepheth):
Exo. 29:6 (KJV) And thou shalt put the mitre upon his head, and put the holy crown upon the mitre.
Lev. 16:4 (KJV) He shall put on the holy linen coat, and he shall have the linen breeches upon his flesh, and shall be girded with a linen girdle, and with the linen mitre (mitsnepheth) shall he be attired: these are holy garments; therefore shall he wash his flesh in water, and so put them on.
So we see that the High Priest wore a 'turban/bonnet' (Heb. #4021 migba`ah). As I will share, the head covering of the priest represents the righteousness of Yahushua the Messiah. For a man to be in the presence of Almighty Yahweh, he must have righteousness upon him! So let's look into the word of Yahweh and prove that the priestly head covering represents the righteousness of Yahushua the Messiah:
Exod 39:27 (KJV) And they made coats of fine linen of woven work for Aaron, and for his sons, 28 And a mitre of fine linen, and goodly bonnets of fine linen, and linen breeches of fine twined linen,
This word "goodly" (Heb. #6287 Pe'er) according to Brown Driver Briggs lexicon means "head-dress, ornament, turban", yet its root word is "Pa'ar" (Heb. #6286) which means "to glorify". We find another variant of this same Hebrew word (#8597 tiph'arah) translated "glory" in the following verse:
Proverbs 17:6 Children's children are the crown of old men; and the glory of children are their fathers.
Note that it is used in a similar way as in 1Corinthians 11, though in a different context. As we discussed, the glory of Yahweh through Yahushua the Messiah must be upon our heads while in His presence (such as in prayer or prophesying). This word apparently later was understood as meaning 'head covering/turban' when we read the story where Ezekiel was not to mourn for his deceased wife.
Ezek 24:16 (KJV) ~ Son of man, behold, I take away from thee the desire of thine eyes with a stroke: yet neither shalt thou mourn nor weep, neither shall thy tears run down. 17 Forbear to cry, make no mourning for the dead, bind the tire of thine head upon thee, and put on thy shoes upon thy feet, and cover not thy lips, and eat not the bread of men.
The Hebrew word that is translated "tire of thine head" (translated 'turban' in other translations) is none other than "Pe'er" (Heb. # 6287)!
Let's now read a portion of Isaiah that Yahushua said He had fulfilled and will continue to fulfill:
Isai 61:1 (NKJV) ~ "The Spirit of Yahweh Elohim is upon Me, Because Yahweh has anointed Me To preach good tidings to the poor; He has sent Me to heal the brokenhearted, To proclaim liberty to the captives, And the opening of the prison to those who are bound; 2 To proclaim the acceptable year of Yahweh,
Here is where Yahushua stopped and said "Today this scripture is fulfilled in your hearing" (Luke 4:21). What He had yet to fulfill was the following:
And the day of vengeance of our Elohim; To comfort all who mourn, 3 To console those who mourn in Zion, To give them beauty for ashes, The oil of joy for mourning, The garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; That they may be called trees of righteousness, The planting of Yahweh, that He may be glorified."
Note that one of the things that Yahweh said Yahushua would do is give His people "beauty for ashes". Ashes were often put upon the heads of those who were in great distress (2sam 13:19). Yahushua said that He would give us "beauty" instead.
A startling revelation is that this word "Beauty" is actually the Hebrew word "Pe'er" (# 6287) which we described above as meaning "head-dress, ornament, turban". With its root word in "Pa'ar" meaning "to glorify" then we can truly understand that this is yet another parallel showing that it is the glory from Yahushua the Messiah that will cover our heads! According to the above verses, it is the Messiah who will give us "beauty/glory/bonnets for ashes". Rather than having ashes on our heads, we will have something glorious. Perhaps the ashes (created by burning) represent what we might have had without Yahushua the Messiah, death and damnation by burning in the lake of fire! Now let's read this last verse again:
3 To console those who mourn in Zion, To give them beauty for ashes, The oil of joy for mourning, The garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; That they may be called trees of righteousness, The planting of Yahweh, that He may be glorified."
Only with the glory of Yahweh that comes from Yahushua the Messiah can we truly be "trees of righteousness" for it must be His righteousness that covers us! Now the following point will put this point into concrete it is important that we understand this. As we talked about earlier, it is because of Yahushua's covering that WE are the glory and image of Yahweh. Now look again at the last portion of this verse:
3b The oil of joy for mourning, The garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; That they may be called trees of righteousness, The planting of Yahweh, that He may be glorified.
We have the glory of Yahweh upon our heads, we are trees of righteousness...'that He (Yahweh) may be glorified!' It is only when we have Yahushua's righteousness upon us and Yahweh's glory upon us that we are the true image and GLORY OF YAHWEH.
So yet again we see that we are the glory of Yahweh through the righteousness of Yahushua the Messiah upon us! This is displayed beautifully in Isaiah 61 with the head covering imagery! Let's look at yet another verse proving this:
Exod 28:39 (av) And thou shalt embroider the coat of fine linen, and thou shalt make the mitre of fine linen, and thou shalt make the girdle of needlework. 40 And for Aaron's sons thou shalt make coats, and thou shalt make for them girdles, and bonnets shalt thou make for them, for glory and for beauty.
Note that again, the bonnet is for 'glory and beauty'. "Glory" is the most often translated word for both of the Hebrew words here that are translated 'glory and beauty'. The Hebrew word translated "Beauty" in the above verse is none other than #8597 tiph'arah, the same word we examined earlier that was used in Proverbs 17:16 to say that the "the glory of children are their fathers". So it all fits in so well! We need only seek it out.
Yet again, let's further verify this. Notice that the material used for the turbans is linen:
Levi 16:4 (NKJV) "He shall put the holy linen tunic and the linen trousers on his body; he shall be girded with a linen sash, and with the linen turban he shall be attired. These are holy garments. Therefore he shall wash his body in water, and put them on.
According to the book of Revelation, linen is a symbol for righteousness:
Rev 19: 7-8 "let us rejoice and be glad and give Him glory, for the wedding of the Lamb has come, and His bride has made herself ready. Fine linen, bright and clean, was given her to wear, for the fine linen is the righteousness of the holy ones."
So it can be clearly seen what the head covering has ALWAYS represented, namely the glory of Yahweh through the righteousness of Yahushua the Messiah. This righteousness MUST be upon our heads!
When the High Priest entered the temple and went beyond the veil into the most holy place, he would need to have a representation of Yahushua upon him. But should we (who have been sanctified and redeemed unto Yahweh by the righteousness of Yahushua the Messiah...the glory of Yahweh...and our salvation) have any need for any other covering than the one given, namely Yahushua the Messiah Himself? Scripture says no. To do so is to dishonor our Head.
Today, some are claiming to justify the Jewish tradition of wearing a kippa (a round skullcap), or covering your head with a Talit (a rectangular garment) while praying. One of the main points made by those who hold to this belief is what they believe to be a mistranslation in 1Corinthians 11:4. They believe the phrase "head covered" is a mistranslation of the Greek which has "Kata Kaphalay":
1 Corinthians 11:4 - Every man praying or prophesying, having his head covered, dishonoureth his head.
They instead translate the Greek phrase "Kata Kaphalay" as having something "down over your head" like a woman's head covering. Thus, they believe that Paul was simply pointing out that any man wearing a woman's head covering is dishonoring the Messiah. But is this true? Was Paul really only talking about a woman's head covering?
To help us answer this question, let's look for other possible places where this same Greek phrase is used. It isn't used anywhere else in the "New Testament" scriptures. However, the Septuagint (a Greek translation of the Hebrew scriptures dating to 200-300 BCE) uses the exact same phrase "kata kaphalay" in the below verse when referring to Haman's head covering:
Esther 6:11-12 - So Haman took the robe and the horse, arrayed Mordecai and led him on horseback through the city square, and proclaimed before him, "Thus shall it be done to the man whom the king delights to honor!" 12 Afterward Mordecai went back to the king's gate. But Haman hurried to his house, mourning and with his head covered.
The phrase is also correctly translated "head covered" in English translations of this Greek phrase. This was after Haman was humiliated by having to parade through town and honor Mordecai. Unless we think that Haman wanted to go and make a fool of himself even more by putting on a woman's head covering as he traveled to his house, it can safely be concluded that "kata kaphalay" simply means "head covered." There is no need to add anything else to that.
The whole point in 1Corinthians 11 is that believing men don't need a head covering during prayer to represent the glory of Yahweh through Yahushua the Messiah, we already have it. In baptism, we died with Him and so we are also raised with Him. It is He who lives in us. Thus, the old Adam died and neither Adam nor his glory should be manifested in Yahweh's presence. Yahushua (the second Adam) needs to be what Yahweh sees. So to place a head covering upon our heads is to dishonor Him. In the same way the temple veil was torn away when Yahushua entered the Holy of Holies and sat down at the right hand of the Father so that we would be able to come before Yahweh, any head covering should also make way for the glory of Yahweh, Yahushua the Messiah living in us. We ARE His body, the body of Messiah. Those who are in Yahushua can approach the presence of Yahweh through His veil:
Hebr 10:19 (NKJV) Therefore, brethren, having boldness to enter the Holiest by the blood of Yahushua, 20 by a new and living way which He consecrated for us, through the veil, that is, His flesh, 21 and having a High Priest over the house of Yahweh, 22 let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water. 23 Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful.
For those men who think they need the head covering while praying, they need to read the Torah. For it was only the High Priest who was commanded to wear one, not the common man. And if you are going to wear one because the High Priest wore one, then why stop with the head covering? You should also wear the linen tunic & sash, the crown, the breastplate with the 12 stones, and don't forget the blood of a young bull as a sin offering and a ram as a burnt offering when you enter the holy of holies (Leviticus 16)! In reality, it represents the righteousness we receive through Yahushua the Messiah, and unless you are a High Priest entering an earthly tabernacle (which represents the heavenly), you have no need of any representation at all. He is supposed to already be living in YOU. Don't dishonor Him by wearing a head covering, for when you cover your head while praying or prophesying, you dishonor your Head: Yahushua the Messiah. Paul said so, and he refers to the "Old testament" to prove his point. And for those who reject this simply because Paul said it but it isn't in the Torah, then you also need to refuse to be baptized in the name of Yahushua the Messiah, for that isn't commanded in the Torah either. The truth is, we need to be baptized and we need to understand what it all represents: The old Adam dying and Yahushua living in us. The head covering issue is connected to this. If He lives in you, don't dishonor Him by covering the image and glory of Yahweh: Yahushua the Messiah living in you.
Time and time again it is revealed that there is more written about Yahushua in the Law and Prophets than there is in what is called "New Testament" scripture. The more one reads what is called the "New Testament", the more he will find what is called the "Old Testament" within! In my mind there is no 'new testament' or 'old testament', it is all scripture and it is all the will and word of Yahweh.
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
Posts: 4578 | From: Southeast Texas | Registered: Jun 2002
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Eden
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Hi, bluefrog, I read your post above mine and want to ask, if it was "just a hair issue", what does the reference to "power (exousia) on her head" refer to again? Please explain.
scythewieldor, from now on I'll make more of an effort to focus FIRST on all the women's hair in church, since I now know that "it is the glory as of a star". And when that is done, if there is any time remaining, I'll try to listen to the sermon too. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
love, Eden
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bluefrog
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This discussion is getting pretty hairy.
Mr. S, me thinks that if all this is to convince the rest of us that your having your wife wear a head covering in church is ok, it ain't workin.
So there !
Hair styles have been important since the first century when the church began, and before.
In ancient Israel both sexes grew long hair. Remember Esau, Gen 25:25, 27:11, then Samson, judges 13;5, Absalom, 2 Sam 14:26. Then there was old baldy Elisha, 2 Kings 2:23.
Nice looking hair was a sign of well being and joy but scruffy hair meant mourning or shame.
Covering with a veil was a pagan practice as were other religious practices. Paul knew this and tried to reason but it came out as a matter of judging for themselves what to do in that it did no harm, it was just the reason that counted.
The cutting or trimmin of the hair and beard on men was directed so as to not look like those of other religions, such as Lev 19:27, Jews didn't cut the sides or front of their heads.
Cutting hair was used to fulfill vows too, Numbers 6:15-18 the growing, the cutting and the sacrifice of it. Paul shaved his head to fulfill a vow, Acts 18:18
Length of hair was later a mark of distinction of sexes. 1 Cor 11:14-16 which is what and where all this got started in the first place.
Hair is for natural uses: Romans 1:26
Hair is a covering: 1 Cor 11:15
Most references to women's hair by the apostles was directed to character rather than beauty.
The way I read 1 Cor 11, about 3 inches of hair growth ago, was Paul spoke to the church about this hair situation and the reason why they were doing as they were. Then, he put it as a question trying to get their thinkers workin.
After that he lowered the boom saying judge for yourselves on this, now let's talk about chow.
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Eden
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scythewieldor wrote quote:
Please read that which follows as if it were just an exercise in soulical reasoning.
Since Paul taught that all men should work with their hands, and since he followed his own teaching, then Paul would know that long hair gets in the way of labor. When it falls down in your eyes, it slows you down, blocks your vision, and can cause imperfections in your work. Besides that, it gets hot, sweaty, tangled, and can be dangerous around things with axels.
Therefore, I would say that nature teaches that a man should not wear hair that is long enough to block his view of his work.
The hair of women, on the other hand, should, probably, be long enough to cover their face.
Yikes. In most cultures, the WOMEN do all the hard work, so by your analogy of "hair getting dangerously in the way", it should be the WOMEN who should have SHORT hair, lest it gets "dangerously in the way", or worse, "covers her face" so she cannot see where the rocks are in the road as she walks 5 miles to find roots and get water and stick the rice seed in the paddy.
love, Eden
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scythewieldor
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Dear Eden,
I know that there are still American men who have long, pretty hair. I don't have to look overseas or in previous generations to find examples of effeminate vanity.
Exousia
quote:
Mt 8:9 For I am a man under <5259> authority <1849>, having soldiers under me: and I say to this man, Go, and he goeth; and to another, Come, and he cometh; and to my servant, Do this, and he doeth it.
Exousia is executive authority. However, the one to whom executive authority is given can not be every where. Therefore, he is forced to put men under his authority.
The soldier, above, confessed that he was a man under authority. That word, 'under', is 'hupo'.
5259 upo hupo hoop-o’
a primary preposition; ; prep
AV-of 116, by 42, under 48, with 14, in 1, not tr 6, misc 3; 230
1) by, under
In other words, the soldier, acting as one under authority, was not acting as a private citizen. He was just following orders.
A woman, according to Paul, can have authority on her head. She can display that she is under authority by wearing a katakalupto. Thus, she may perform certain functions publicly, and without a lot of flack just like the soldier does when he puts on the hat or helmet of the uniform of the service to which he belongs.
I do not think a woman who is, simply, attending church has to wear a katakalupto. However, she can, and should, wear her hair long. (I think it serves as a testimony that her husband or father is supporting her well enough, and that being a woman is a thing of privilege.)
How long? Well, pretty long.
The only directive that I can surmise from the text is in reference to the teaching of nature that men should have short hair.
Please read that which follows as if it were just an exercise in soulical reasoning.
Since Paul taught that all men should work with their hands, and since he followed his own teaching, then Paul would know that long hair gets in the way of labor. When it falls down in your eyes, it slows you down, blocks your vision, and can cause imperfections in your work. Besides that, it gets hot, sweaty, tangled, and can be dangerous around things with axels.
Therefore, I would say that nature teaches that a man should not wear hair that is long enough to block his view of his work.
The hair of women, on the other hand, should, probably, be long enough to cover their face.
Each congregation should have elders who can work this stuff out. Whatever they settle on (and, I mean whatEVER they settle on) will be challenged by the rebellious. Settle on something reasonable and you will have an indicator of the good will of members to your community of faith.
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Eden
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Dear scythewieldor, you wrote quote:
Dear Eden,
You are reading me right, Eden. You're getting the hang of it.
I believe that the announcement that "I'm getting the hang of it" is a bit premature.
Scythwieldor further wrote quote:
Have you ever been driving down the street and noticed a arrangement of pretty, long hair that turned out to be on the head of a guy? Long hair has the power to draw attention from a long way off, somehow, like the glory of a star.
First of all, historically there have been MANY countries, like the Assyrians and Egyptians and Babylonians and Mongols and others where MEN had LONG hair.
And further, if I am driving, the reason why I would notice the HAIR FIRST is because I'm a distance away, and the HAIR, being the easiest to see from a distance, especially if the person is WALKING AWAY FROM me and thus I'm seeing the BACK of that person, and it is not until I get closer that I can ascertain their "other" attributes, were I do so.
But in a church we are all close together and it is not as if, from my pew, the hair of the women in the pew in front of me "kind of zeroes in on me", LIKE THE GLORY OF A STAR, to use your words. That just doesn't happen.
And besides, there is long hair and medium hair and short hair, unless you would like to further assert that it is "unGodly" for women "should not cut their hair", and if you do, please explain your stance.
Scythewieldor, you also said quote:
Paul assumed women would pray and prophesy. (We know that Philip, one of the Seven deacons, had daughters who prophesied.) However, he did not want them making any sound in church as women. With exousia on their head, they could speak with delegated authority - not as women.
Please explain that bolded phrase to me, "they could speak with delegated authority - not as women"?
love, Eden
"he's getting the hang of it"
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scythewieldor
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Dear Bluefrog,
I don't tell any body to do anything because it pleases me; nor do I tell anybody to do anything because of angels.
I tell people that
quote:
Jn 1:1 ¶ In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
5 ¶ And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
If the Word shines into our darkness and we hear a command that we do not comprehend, is obeying that command the same as disobeying that command?
The Word was God- not the ability of any one of us to explain or justify the Word.
The Holy Ghost had this to say in the same letter where He wrote about head covering for women.
quote:
1Co 14:37 If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.
Jesus said this about the Word.
quote:
Lu 8:11 Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.
12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.
13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.
14 And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, go forth, and are choked with cares and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to perfection.
15 But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience.
Mt 7:26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
I guess I look at salvation as more than just a ticket to heaven. My house has a chance to be saved if I build it on the rock. Whether or not I do, my work will be tested.
quote:
1 Co 3:8 Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour.
9 For we are labourers together with God: ye are God’s husbandry, ye are God’s building.
10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
11 ¶ For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13 Every man’s work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man’s work of what sort it is.
14 If any man’s work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15 If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
I have seen others build, and, later suffer loss.
I don't want that.
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bluefrog
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1 John 2:26 These things I have written to you concerning them that seduce (lead astray) you.
27 But the anointing which you have received of Him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you; but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in Him.
The only one responsible for me is me on that final day. You don't depend on teachers. If you don't see it, you don't see it.
If you don't have time to enjoy talking about the teachings of Jesus then what else is there ?
If I were to tell my wife to wear a scarf in church to show respect to me and the angels I do think that I would find a knot up side my head.
And, if not, there should be.
Paul knew it was a pagan practice and so did the pope when he carried it on just like all the other pagan practices he and Satan brewed up.
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scythewieldor
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Dear Believers,
I am in a church where women are not taught as I recommend. However, I am under these commands of the One who bought me with His own precious blood:
quote:
Col 3:14 And above all these things [put on] charity, which is the bond of perfectness.
Heb 12:28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:
Jm 3:Jas 3:13 Who is a wise man and endued with knowledge among you? let him shew out of a good conversation his works with meekness of wisdom.
14 But if ye have bitter envying and strife in your hearts, glory not, and lie not against the truth.
15 This wisdom descendeth not from above, but is earthly, sensual, devilish.
16 For where envying and strife is, there is confusion and every evil work.
17 But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy.
18 And the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace of them that make peace.
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scythewieldor
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Dear Bluefrog,
I tend to hear and write everything with the literal in mind.
I don't play much. There isn't enough time.
Don't leave- until I tell you to.
My kind of humor...
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scythewieldor
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Dear Eden,
You are reading me right, Eden. You're getting the hang of it.
Have you ever been driving down the street and noticed a arrangement of pretty, long hair that turned out to be on the head of a guy? Long hair has the power to draw attention from a long way off, somehow, like the glory of a star.
Not only that, but people use cameras focusing on the head, usually. And a pulpit (when it is used) will cover large parts of the body. If a woman is speaking from within a croud or congregation, most people will see no more than her head.
Now, for sure, a woman can use her clothing and make up to draw attention to other features, but, it seems to me that they see their hair as their first "lure".
Few people recognize that women are commanded by the Lord Jesus Christ to adorn themselves with the intent of producing an arrangement that manifests reverence and self-control, but it is so.
quote:
1Ti 9 ¶ In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array;
10 But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works.
So, dressing to reveal cleavage, thigh, or to accentuate silhouette would, also, be ungodly.
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Eden
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So scythewieldor, if I may ask one more time, you wrote quote:
This shows that she reserves her power to physically attract a man (her glory) for the proper setting.
I'm probably misreading or not reading something, but are you telling me that a woman's HAIR is her power to physically attract a man (her glory)? Why are you singling out a woman's hair as "her power to physically attract a man"? I mean, hair is just one of the things that make a woman attractive and empower the woman.
But she has a number of other attributes by which she "attracts a man", there are lots of them, honesty, considerate, funny, there are many. So [b]scythewieldor, why do you single out "hair" as the power? You wrote quote:
This shows that she reserves her power to physically attract a man (her glory) for the proper setting.
Okay, so the hair is reserved for the "proper setting" but what about the rest of her attributes?
love, Eden
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Michael Harrison
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Thanks for the confirmation wyld bee! That could not be better presented as evidence of what I said.
Posts: 3273 | From: Charlotte N.C. | Registered: Sep 2007
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Michael Harrison
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bluefrog, it is all good. Don worry! Besides, one of the biggest rules of 1 Corinthians chapter 13 is that we not take anything personally! Besides, it usually is the case that we misunderstand where someone is coming from that leads us to 'pull back'. (Leads us to pull back.... ) And when someone is preaching what they see as the truth, there is plenty of opportunity to take it wrong.
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Michael Harrison
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Mizpah. It is not when things get 'personal' on wyldb's post that he deletes it. It is when something disagrees with him. This includes both doctrine, and it includes personal lifestyle. For there are those who will not put up with anything that disagrees with their lifestyle, the same thinking all the while that they can post the elequent truth, penned by able authors, when personally supposing that truth to justify error. In their mind the sayings condone, or justify somehow, to their satisfaction, and they use it as a front to 'cover' their misdeeds.
Take for example, would you attend a gay church, or would you think them to be dirty, and under the judgment of God? After all however, they use the same scriptures. And they quote some religious writings, however they hear it differently somehow. They hear it differently to the extent that they can hear justification, while those of the Spirit hear only condemnation. It is pretty extreme.
So I know you have not been here long and you are only able to go by 'recent' chatter. But careful when you judge someone. You may make a mistake. But I will take the criticism, if someone thinks me deserving. I might have to admit to being wrong sometime. Otherwise I will be able to explain myself.
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bluefrog
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Thanks. I meant no harm.
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Mizpa
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quote:
Originally posted by bluefrog:
SCHYTHWIELDOR...I don't know if you are puttin me on or not. In either case I think I will withdraw from this conversation.
Careful my friend, there are those that bait then run back to Dave (the owner)and try to get them banned.
If you have noticed when things get personal on Wildbs post , he deletes it.
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bluefrog
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SCHYTHWIELDOR...I don't know if you are puttin me on or not. In either case I think I will withdraw from this conversation.
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Michael Harrison
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quote:
The peribolaion of glorious long hair should be rolled up and changed with a katakalupto when a woman prays or prophesies in the congregation. This shows that she reserves her power to physically attract a man (her glory) for the proper setting. Using her personal glory to persuade the congregation is off limits.
...Interesting!
bluefrog, almost without exception, post start one way, and go somewhere else. I was being facetious. ![[Razz]](tongue.gif) But the conversation is usually enjoyable. (And it has to start somewhere.)
Posts: 3273 | From: Charlotte N.C. | Registered: Sep 2007
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scythewieldor
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Dear Eden,
Paul says that when people prophesy, they edify, exhort, amd comfort. Since there are false prophecies, in the mouth of two or three witnesses a thing is confirmed.
Paul assumed women would pray and prophesy. (We know that Philip, one of the Seven deacons, had daughters who prophesied.) However, he did not want them making any sound in church as women. With exousia on their head, they could speak with delegated authority- not as women.
It is a behavioural fact that ugly women are easier to ignore than pretty women. It is a behavioural fact that pretty women are more likely to get favor than ugly women.
Women know that. That is why they spend so much time on fixing their hair.
Can you imagine how PTL Club would have done if Tammy Faye had been required to use a katakalupto?
That "If you send us a thousand dollars to day, oh how we need this money Lord, God will bless you so much" would have sounded a lot different.
That poor dog of hers would have had to settle for a water cooler rather than AC.
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becauseHElives
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quote:
Eden ,Being under the law means "I have to DO something for God", while being under grace means, "God does something for me".
+the problem is that most people today do not understand the proper definition of "Grace"...
today most people are thinking Grace and mercy or the same thing....but that just aint so....
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
Posts: 4578 | From: Southeast Texas | Registered: Jun 2002
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Eden
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dear scythewieldor, I enjoyed your take on katakalupto and peribolaion, and you also said quote:
The peribolaion of glorious long hair should be rolled up and changed with a katakalupto when a woman prays or prophesies in the congregation. This shows that she reserves her power to physically attract a man (her glory) for the proper setting. Using her personal glory to persuade the congregation is off limits.
Regarding the parts that I bolded above, uhh...I usually don't look first at a woman's hair? Or perhaps that is my problem only. Do all or even a majority of men, say in the West, first look at a woman's hair? ![[angel3]](graemlins/angel3.gif)
You also said: quote:
This shows that she reserves her power to physically attract a man (her glory) for the proper setting. Using her personal glory to persuade the congregation is off limits.
Persuade the congregation...of what?
love, Eden
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scythewieldor
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Dear Bluefrog,
Off Topic is OK. I took care of bees for a while.
In my desire to please God, I choose to exercise in the direction of obedience rather than presuming that God spoke a word that was unimportant. Thankfully, my wife decided to adapt herself to me as unto the Lord.
She wears a scarf when she prays or exhorts or reads Bible in church.
I will admit that I have struggled to explain the 1 Co 11 passage, but, it finally boiled down to this katakalupto is not peribolaion.
The covering that women should wear when they prophesy or pray in church is not the hair.
The AV interprets two word of the 1 Co 11 passage in question with some form of English word related to "cover". The cover that women should wear on their heads when they pray or prophesy at the meeting of the congregation is "katakalupto".
2619 katakaluptw katakalupto kat-ak-al-oop’-to
from 2596 and 2572; TDNT-3:561,405; v
AV-cover 3; 3
1) to cover up
2) to veil or cover one’s self
The word that is interpreted "cover" when speaking about the gift of long hair to women is peribolaion.
4018 peribolaion peribolaion per-ib-ol’-ah-yon
from a presumed derivative of 4016; ; n n
AV-covering 1, vesture 1; 2
1) a covering thrown around, a wrapper
1a) a mantle
1b) a veil
There is only one other place that peribolaion is used. In Hebrews 1:12, the peribolaion is rolled up and changed while the Lord who "wears" them never changes.
My struggled explanation...
The peribolaion of glorious long hair should be rolled up and changed with a katakalupto when a woman prays or prophesies in the congregation. This shows that she reserves her power to physically attract a man (her glory) for the proper setting. Using her personal glory to persuade the congregation is off limits.
Not only that, she must have exousia on her head because of the angels.
It's about headship. Compare it to being in the military.
The President is the Commander in Chief. He is the head of the military. He does not have to wear a hat. His glory comes from his office.
Every other military man, from 5 star generals down, must wear hats while on duty (unless under some other cover/roof) in order to command respect. Their glory is delegated.
The President gets his glory from the people. He is their glory and image. They all know him by face.
Man, being the glory and image of the Lord, is the manifest authority. A woman, being the glory of the man, may only hold delegated authority, hence a katakalupto on her long hair.
Since what I have presented does not satisfy my own standard for "revelation", I do not impose this on any body- even my wife. She volunteers because I wish it.
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bluefrog
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SCHYTHWIELDOR...Shame on us for getting off topic. ![[updown]](graemlins/updown.gif)
I thought we had pretty much worked it out.
Forgive me but did you or someone explain where God says for a woman to cover her head in church? Did He say that hair was good enough ?
What is wrong with getting off topic once in a while ?
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Michael Harrison
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Oh schythwieldor, you just had to ruin it and go and post 'on-topic'! ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
You know, I don't care what a woman does. A good woman is often a very good thing. But if she doesn't have an unction, I simply will ignore her. I will tell you however that I believe that God will make a preaching man jealous with a godly woman, the same as HE makes Israel jealous with a nation which thy know not!
Anyone ever thought about going to an atheist chatroom and using the handle 'not1'?
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scythewieldor
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Dear Believers,
One of the problems with understanding the part that women have in the church is understanding the part that the Holy Spirit played in getting messages through men like Peter, James, and John.
If you believe that these men had any vagueness in their understanding of what the Holy Spirit wanted us to know, you will write your own books and pretend that those books put the writings of the Lord's aposles in perspective.
In so doing, you place yourselves among the guys who actually saw and conversed with the Lord.
We're talking about the first guys who heard this:
quote:
Joh 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
Is there no fear of God here?
What does Peter say about the writings of Paul?
quote:
2Pe 3:15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.
All of the epistles of Paul are scripture. The unlearned and the unstable wrestle Paul's letters to their own destruction. Don't let that happen to you.
What does Paul say about his own letters?
quote:
1Co 14:37 If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.
I want you to remember that scripture can be divided into kinds. Testimony is one kind of scripture. Commandment is another kind of scripture.
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Ps 19:7 ¶ The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.
8 The statutes of the LORD are right, rejoicing the heart: the commandment of the LORD is pure, enlightening the eyes.
If you recognize that the commandments concerning head covering and silent women are the Lord's commandments (not man's), you will not try to undo them on the basis of the Lord's testimony through His servants.
If you can not see how the commandment and the testimony agree, then just keep the commandments of the Lord by faith- just because He is the Lord.
We live by faith- not by sight. Nevertheless, the commandment will enlighten the eyes.
If we only understood the economy of glory better. However, as in any discipline, there are rudimentary things that must be practiced and mastered before one can begin to handle the things that trained men handle.
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Heb 5:12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles <4747> of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.
We do not want to go back to the rudimentary things of the world, of course, but how about the rudimentery things of the oracles of God?
As the late Bear Bryant (I think) said to his football team after a disappointing game: "Gentlemen, it is time to go back over some of the fundamentals. This is a football."
Gentlemen. We have Holy Writ. How dare you handle it so roughly?
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