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Topic: War in heaven ...
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Eden
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posted
When God creates someone, or many someones, with free will, then even what happens after these someones are ceated, is to a large extent "out of God's hands", because otherwise it is no longer "free will".
God can do a risk assessment and see that Lucifer will rebel at some point, and God can do a risk assessment and see that Adam and Eve and their descendants will rebel at some point, but God can decide that He can use this rebellion to His own advantage, and turn the tables on both Lucifer and man, and eventually end up with what God wanted, sons and daughters, after first having made a huge impact statement to all His created entities.
In the end, God may just have decided that in the end it would all be worth it after God's initial purpose was restored, even by way of a long detour.
As for God deciding, "Well I will just not create Lucifer if that is what this Lucifer is going to do later", but I'm not so sure that God can both create a "free will" person, and then decide "well I better not make this one because this one made some bad decisions". That is not free will. That is eliminating the bad ones through risk assessment.
The main problem I see is that even God is to a large extent "bound by the free will" issue and once created, God cannot then "undo" the free will of some but not of others, just because one entity decided to misuse his free will. Free will is free will, and even God must respect it.
God doesn't have to create free will, but if God does, then even God is "limited by its boundaries".
For example, if one creates an NFL football game, it has sidelines, yard lines, end zones, goal posts, a certain kind of ball, and rules. If a game isn't going a certain way, we cannot just eliminate the "side lines" and still consider that "we have a game".
Likewise every living creation is bound or made by certain rules, else there is no living creation, and to mess or suddenly eliminate any of these "boundaries" or "parameters" in midstream would both not be fair, plus it would elminate the original game. We can't have some teams playing with side lines and some teams not playing with side lines.
In other words, once God creates someone with "free will", then even God becomes bound to not excessively interfere with this "free will" for else it is no longer free will.
God of course has the instant power to DESTROY anything or anyone He has created, but again, the justice side of God demands that even God "play fair".
So in a "free will" plot, even God is obliged to "allow that free will to make its choices", else it is NOT free will.
love, Eden
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The Beauty of Holiness777
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posted
Well Said!
WE all were lost at one time some came to the Father and stayed some left just like the "Prodigal Son" nevertheless, when he came to hisself he realize he could go home again. Love accepted him back with open arms and treated him as though he never left.
Good Post ![[thumbsup2]](graemlins/thumbsup2.gif)
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In God I'am Complete.
I am a "Spiritual Being" living in a physical body.
{Prayer - a force that reaches people and places when we can't}
Posts: 192 | From: God's Universe | Registered: Sep 2008
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Forever His
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The Beauty of Holiness777 wrote:
quote:
Forever His you make it seems like God is suppose to be some kind of slave master with a whip who demands obedience. From the way I read scripture God threw Lucifer and the angels that had join him out of heaven at the same time. Obviously they were all in it together Lucifer was just the leader of the pack.
Hi Beautyofholiness nice to meet you. I am glad that you stopped in.
Because of the limits of the internet [ no body language, voice inflection etc. ] it is easy to mis-comunicate and have misunderstandings. ![[Kiss]](graemlins/Kiss.gif) For me the whole reason that I wanted to start this topic is because I believe the exact opposite of that. The truth is... I have only one string left on my guitar... that is the "Amazing Love of God" That is at the "Center" of every topic worth discussing..
I believe that God gave all of His creation complete freedom to serve Him… or not.
That is what I am hoping will be completely obvious. I believe that we [ all who choose] love God because He first loved us. That true conversion to God is when we have wandered away and sinned against Him [ and all have sinned and come short] that when we come back knowing that we deserve the pigpen… and He throws a party and gives us the royal robes and call us His son… and draws us back to Himself... that is what breaks our rebelious heart and we begin to serve Him from love and not fear or a sense of duty.
God Bless
Forever His
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The Beauty of Holiness777
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quote:
Forever His
Not only did God create Lucifer...after the rebellion God allowed Lucifer to tempt the other angels and then Adam and Eve. Why did God not quarantine Lucifer and was infected with this deadly and apparently infectious disease.
Forever His you make it seems like God is suppose to be some kind of slave master with a whip who demands obedience. From the way I read scripture God threw Lucifer and the angels that had join him out of heaven at the same time. Obviously they were all in it together Lucifer was just the leader of the pack.
Think on this if you will;
You have parents that love you very much and in the home they have rules do"s and don'ts. You know the rules and what they told you would happen if you disobeyed. Deep down inside they have a feeling whether you will obey or not. But they want to give you a choice, not to force you to obey them even though they could. But they love you enough to give you that choice. So they give you freedom to do or don't, not standing over you constantly seeing that you obey. But wanting to trust you that you will. Nevertheless, you chose to disobey are they to blame or you?
To go a little farther if you have other siblings that is in the family they too know the rules as well as you. You get together with them and conspire and break the rules are your parents to blame are you and your siblings? For you parents will not stand over you and your siblings with a whip or bullying you constantly to do right.
You must picture God in this same manner with those who belong to Him. He is not a Father with a whip nor do He bully His people.
quote:
Forever His wrote;
I believe that since God allowed the rebellion to continue, that in itself demonstrates an important truth of scripture about who God is, and how His government works.
Before I go any further I would like to ask you what do you think is the character of God?
In order to know the character of God one must first know the attributes or characteristics of God.
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Forever His
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In order to try and find an answer as to why God created Lucifer in the first place we need to see more of "the big picture" ...
Not only did God create Lucifer... after the rebellion God allowed Lucifer to tempt the other angels and then Adam and Eve. Why did God not quarantine Lucifer who was infected with this deadly and apparently infectious disease?
I believe that since God allowed the rebellion to continue, that in itself demonstrates an important truth of scripture about who God is, and how His government operates. First off if we may review a few important details.
-Lucifer is the originator of sin Eze. 28:15 in this case pride...
-which led to rebellion Rev. 12:7
-Lucifer probably resorted to telling lies in order to persuade 1/3 of the angels to follow his deceptive plan of rebellion. John 8:44 Rev. 12:4
- We know that God cannot lie Heb. 6:18 thus He will not use coercion, deception, or manipulation to attain His purposes. Thus I believe that He has allowed time to unfold to show the worlds seen and unseen that His ways are just and true.
-sin "entered" this world through Adam and Eve. Rom. 5:12 and spread unto all mankind for all have yielded to it's "deceptive" nature.
For reasons that we hope to further discover, God allowed the rebellion to continue and even to spread... we would do well to ponder that one.. it speaks loudly.
We do not have any record of converstaions between God and Lucifer prior to the creation of this earth. However, I believe that when we look at the "war between heaven and earth" as a whole, we can see what the primary issue is. God has always said things like...
What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things [is] death. But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life. For the wages of sin [is] death; but the gift of God [is] eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. (Romans 6)
In otherwords God says obey and live, disobey and die. This is a principal which God's government is founded upon.
Rom2:6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
2:8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
So in further study of what went wrong, lets look at how sin spread to this world...
quote:
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And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
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Here God makes an assertion: in the day that you "disobey" thus "sin" you will surely die.
Lucifer has contended that it was not necessary for perfect created beings to be bound by obedience to God.. that they could do "as they pleased" and still live. In fact, they would rise to higher levels of happiness and fulfillment.On what basis do I say that? The whole of scripture from the beginning right up till now there are scores of examples written for our admonition. However for now lets start with Adam and Eve. If you look at Gen. 3:1-4
What was Lucifer saying... He made three points central to his thinking
-Eve, "has God put restrictions on you?" that you may not eat of every tree of this garden?
-God is holding something back from you, you can have a higher plain of existence... you can be like God
-God surely wont kill you over something so innocent as this will He?... what kind of God do you serve anyway? That certainly is not love...
I am not here to to try tell anyone anything. I hope that you would come and reason together to "see if these things be so."
Before the rebellion, it was "NOT" obvious that the choice to rebel would cause death. No one had ever seen death for themselves. Even God himself could not prove it with mere words. Unfortunately it had to be demonstrated. All created beings were free to make up their own minds. And they had to trust that God was telling the truth about rebellion... or not.
It's really simple. Those who trusted God remained safely in heaven. Those who did not trust God chose to leave... Even those angels who remained in heaven did not know for themselves what the truth realy was. But they trusted God. They had faith enough to believe that what God said was true. And God has demonstrated the truth over and over for the next few thousand years. And the ultimate truth was demonstrated at the cross. That was the final demonstration that God had told the truth in heaven when he said that sin (rebellion)causes death.
May God richly Bless
Forever His
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Forever His
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oneinchrist wrote:
quote:
You stated that if I am flawed in my thinking about "character" and "nature" being different that I am also wrong about something else that I said about God. Please tell me what exactly is it that are you referring to?
With love in Christ, Daniel
Dear brother Daniel... In my heart of hearts I do not view you as wrong and am not sure to which comment I made that you referred to above. I had never viewed or thought about the way you viewed this idea and was in the dark. I was simply wishing to understand your position and thinking.
At this point I am getting closer to understanding your position and am mulling the idea over to see how it fits into my "hardrive" ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif) . So at this point I am still in the understanding and evaluation process.
God Bless you
Forever His
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oneinchrist
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Hi Bloodbought,
I noticed your explanation for why God may have allowed Lucifer, the rebelling angel..........
You said: He needed opposition to show forth His power.
Would you be willing to consider this possiblility, Bloodbought???............
In Gods determination to share Himself with others and demonstrate His love towards them, He was willing to allow the ill-effects of permitting self-expression.
With love in Christ, Daniel
Posts: 1389 | From: Wind Lake, WI | Registered: May 2007
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oneinchrist
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Gods nature and Gods character work in sync, but they are not in and of themselves the same thing. It would be like saying the Father and the Son are the same exact thing.......but we know that is not the case because They do not have the same functions.
Gods nature is that of Holiness and perfection and His character is that of love, patience, and faithfullness. Mans nature is that of sin and imperfection and his character can be from loving to bitter and unruly.
Gods character is seen in His demonstration of love towards a sinning world.
Gods Holiness is seen in that the heavenly altar needed to be purified with better things than the sacrifice of bulls or goats.
Do you see the distinction? Character is personality, whereeas, Holiness is something that demands things to be done a certain way.........For ex: "Moses, take off your sandals for you stand on Holy ground". Another example would be that a priest who entered the Holy of Holies had to do everything exactly as they were instructed by God otherwise they would perish on the spot.
If someone were to ask me why God would have created Lucifer if He had known that he was going to sin against Him, I would tell them that God was never obligated to share His existence with anyone.....let alone anyone who had the capacity to sin. Then I would tell them that if God would have created us perfect, then we would be Gods ourselves.......and I am sure that is something that God would not allow. Whether its an impossiblity due to His nature or that its just not an option due to His character I do not know.
You stated that if I am flawed in my thinking about "character" and "nature" being different that I am also wrong about something else that I said about God. Please tell me what exactly is it that are you referring to?
With love in Christ, Daniel
Posts: 1389 | From: Wind Lake, WI | Registered: May 2007
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Forever His
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quote:
Hi Forever His,
So you do not agree with me that some things had to be done the way that they were done because of Gods nature????......not just because of His Character?????
The only other thing that I would like to adress is ........God the Father didnt die. The Father was never made lower than the angels through death. It was the Son(according to Hebrews). It was the Son who emptied Himself of all power and authority that was given to Him, the only thing He couldnt empty from Himself is His divine nature.
Please dont take me the wrong way Les. I am not here to argue. Maybe it is possible that God creataed imperfect beings mainly so that we could freely love Him back........but maybe it is also possible that God cannot separate Himself from His Holiness and that had something to do with why we needed to be created imperfect beings......but nevertheless beings who are in the image, just not the essence of God. I am here to learn with you, not to start an argument.
With love in Christ, Daniel
Good morning Daniel. The idea that God's nature and charachter are different is something that is a new concept to me. I do not understand the idea so you may have to enlighten me.
At this point in my understanding they are exactly the same. So for example when we read that "God is love" I would understand that to mean that God's charachter shows love by His every act because His very nature is love. His actions are an ourflow of His charachter...because actions speak far louder than our words.
Because He "is" love... His nature and charachter are always congruent and harmonious. That is why in the truest sense we can believe that "God is love".
If there was "any" difference in His charachter and His nature then that statement about God would not be entirely true would it ? Anyway... this is my present understanding. I hope this clarifies where I am at.
God Bless you
Forever His
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oneinchrist
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Hi Forever His,
So you do not agree with me that some things had to be done the way that they were done because of Gods nature????......not just because of His Character?????
The only other thing that I would like to adress is ........God the Father didnt die. The Father was never made lower than the angels through death. It was the Son(according to Hebrews). It was the Son who emptied Himself of all power and authority that was given to Him, the only thing He couldnt empty from Himself is His divine nature.
Please dont take me the wrong way Les. I am not here to argue. Maybe it is possible that God creataed imperfect beings mainly so that we could freely love Him back........but maybe it is also possible that God cannot separate Himself from His Holiness and that had something to do with why we needed to be created imperfect beings......but nevertheless beings who are in the image, just not the essence of God. I am here to learn with you, not to start an argument.
With love in Christ, Daniel
Posts: 1389 | From: Wind Lake, WI | Registered: May 2007
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Forever His
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bloodbought wrote:
quote:
Lucifer did sin, so he was a sinner. We understand that we are not sinners because we sin; we sin because we are sinners. Is it possible for a perfect angel to sin without having a sin nature? God is God and He can create whatever He likes for whatever purpose he wishes and He had a purpose in creating Lucifer. God needed opposition to show forth His power, because how could He show His power without some resistance? God had this resistance in His plans from the commencement of His creation and in the end is going to demonstrate that all resistance is futile. His creation including humans are fulfilling His plan exactly whither they believe it or not. God allows evil and works good out of evil to show His power and who can resist His will? None.
We do sin because we are sinners... sadly we inherited that all the way back from the garden of eden.
Years ago when I first started with this topic I have to admit that I had some feeling on the edge of resentment toward God that He would allow me to be born into this mess of which I origanaly had no part of. Now they wern't deep rooted but there was a bit of being put out by the thought. On the other hand I also recognized that God was "just" and fair and that His love was at the "heart" of everything that He did or allowed. (Rom.8:28 for eg.) So after maturing as a christian and also knowledge of God I came to the point that I realized that this is "all about Him"... not me
that is a "reality check" for those of us, like me who was born self centered
I also realized that this war that started in heaven must be resolved in a way that all of the creatures that God had created, would in the end know beyond a shadow of doubt that God truly is love and that He loves all of His creation... That love could only be "demonstrated" ... not just stated.
If you look at what happened in Gethsemene you will find an amazing truth... Jesus is pouring out His very soul before the universe ready to lay down His own life in a horrible and cruel death. He was about to face the weight of the entire sins of this world upon His pure and spotless life. He was about to face death.
Yet think about this... whose life was at stake? His???
No, ours. He could have walked away... He volenteered.
So don't miss this important point... When the stakes were such that God could choose who would die... man or Himself.... "He" "chose to die", rather than let us perish. Amazing thought!
I believe that this truth about the depth of God's amazing love is somehow central in our understanding of why God let rebellion spread into this world. I wonder... could it also be central in trying to understand why He allowed rebellion in the first place? It is this topic which I wish to persue..
May God Bless us as we seek "Him"
Forever His
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Forever His
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Eden Wrote:
quote:
In other words, it is possible that something NEEDS to be CREATED BEFORE it's results can be assessed.
Unless we think it possible that God can assess the risks and results of something that has NEVER been created?
Hi Eden … it is very true that for us humans many times we need to create something before it can be assessed. A good example would be the making of the light bulb. Yet for God He is all seeing and all knowing… He understands the beginning from the ending , even before it happens. He is not just All knowing but He transcends time for we read in Isaiah …
46:9 I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,
Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:
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oneinchrist
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Hi again Forever His,
I was thinking about your question.......How is it that an all knowing and all seeing God allowed this state of existence(the rebellion that began in the heavens) in the first place?
Maybe God could not have shared Himself unless He was willing to create imperfect beings to share Himself with???? I know sometimes people think that God could not have limitations, but I do not think that is the case. They would be limitations based on His nature and His character. Maybe it is not even possible that God can create more Gods. But even if God could create more Gods, He would only be sharing Himself with more of Himself.....so that would not really be sharing at all. Maybe it was either do not share or be willing to share with imperfect beings.
I beg to differ with others who believe that Lucifer and Adam and Eve were created perfect.
Perfect is not just the absence of sin, but it is also the presence of Holiness. Also since God is perfect, He is not able to sin.......but we know that was not the case with Lucifer and Adam and Eve. They were created with the capacity to sin.
Forever His, I do think that this is a great subject of discussion. Let me tell you why. Many dissidents of the bible like to ask the very question that you are asking and it surely can entertain doubts. We need to stand ready to show that God does everything out of love.
with love in Christ, Daniel
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Bloodbought
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quote:
Originally posted by Eden:
Hi, Bloodbought, you wrote quote:
Did Lucifer sin? Is there scripture support to say that Lucifer sinned? I don’t believe he did.
How about these, as The Beauty of Holiness777 also pointed out (though she be not one to post a lot of scriptures)?
Isaiah 14
12 How are you fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! How are you cut down to the ground, which did weaken the nations!
13 For you have said in your heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north.
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
And these:
Ezekiel 28
14 You are the anointed cherub that covers; and I have set you so: you were upon the holy mountain of God; you have walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
15 You were perfect in your ways from the day that you were created, until iniquity was found in you.
16 ... and you have sinned: therefore I will cast you as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy you, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
Thank you Eden, I stand corrected,
Lucifer did sin, so he was a sinner. We understand that we are not sinners because we sin; we sin because we are sinners. Is it possible for a perfect angel to sin without having a sin nature? God is God and He can create whatever He likes for whatever purpose he wishes and He had a purpose in creating Lucifer. God needed opposition to show forth His power, because how could He show His power without some resistance? God had this resistance in His plans from the commencement of His creation and in the end is going to demonstrate that all resistance is futile. His creation including humans are fulfilling His plan exactly whither they believe it or not. God allows evil and works good out of evil to show His power and who can resist His will? None.
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Eden
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Now, as to the sub-question, quote:
Why not just leave this one angel out of His creation?
While thinking about this, it reminded me of the idea that even God did not know what the risks and results would be "until the moment that He created it", in that instant God saw the results.
In other words, it is possible that something NEEDS to be CREATED BEFORE it's results can be assessed.
Unless we think it possible that God can assess the risks and results of something that has NEVER been created?
Human beings are said to be created "in the image and likeness of God" and humans, before they CREATE a product, humans do analysis and computer modeling and assessments, and make prototypes, and test them.
So did God do any analysis and "computer modeling" (so to speak) BEFORE God decided to make this creation?
If nothing exists yet, can God already do an "analysis" or do "modeling" on what will happen with a FREEWILL entity?
love, Eden
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Eden
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Hi, Forever His, I thought I would close out my nice day with trying to see if I get some kind of answer to your interesting question: quote:
"God knew when He created Lucifer that he {Lucifer} would rebel. Why would God do that knowing of the rebellion beforehand? Why not just leave this one angel out of His creation?
I'm thinking.... ![[Confused]](confused.gif) ,,, ![[wave3]](graemlins/18.gif) ,,,, ![[zzzzzz]](graemlins/20.gif) ,,, ![[1zhelp]](graemlins/1zhelp.gif) ... ![[Bible]](graemlins/bible.gif) ... ![[clap2]](graemlins/clap2.gif)
![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
It was NOT God who forced Adam and Eve to disobey, that IS a choice that Adam and Eve made. "All" God did was "create Adam and Eve with the instrument of choice in order to create a freewill human being".
Even if God foreknew that Lucifer would do this rebellion, God also knew that Lucifer would not do this ON THE FIRST DAY that Lucifer was created, so God did get to ENJOY Lucifer until that sin happened.
So God may have estimated, and thru foreknowledge God got to actually see, what this freewill human would do and would not do, and it may well be that God decided, "hey, this is worth it".
God may say to Himself, "I see that one-third of the created angels will eventually stray off the path of righteousness if I create them, but then I have My next plan to instead fill the vacuum left by the departed angels with sons and daughters, SO THERE, REBELLIOUS ANGELS!
I think it is possible that God foresaw the risks and actual results of creating these angels and humans, and God, as a good "risk manager", decided that "it was worth it", since God could create a good outcome in the end with Jesus in charge from Jerusalem.
So...it became a "let's go for it" Project!
love, Eden
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Eden
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Hi, Forever His, you wrote quote:
Dear Eden I have a question to ask you... do you not sense that something is different and that we are aproaching the end of this age as we know it?
Yes, I do sense that we are approaching the end times.
The boundaries of the earth have now mostly been settled; the earth is full, there is no "new territory to be taken". The population is around 6.5 billion; we are looking at water shortages, we are looking at pestilences, viruses that have lain dormant in the dust for thousands of years, but are now stirred up out of the ground by the feet of many man and many pack animals, and cars and development.
I also believe that 1967 is the year that the times of the Gentiles were fulfilled when the Israel Defense Forces regained access to the Western Wall of the Temple Mount, and only one time period remains unfulfilled in the Bible, the time of the end.
I also believe that 8 weeks of Daniel's 70 weeks remain unfulfilled, and 8 weeks of years adds up to 56 years. When I add 1967 and 56 years, I come to the year 2023, a very plausible year for the Second Coming of Jesus Christ.
And now with the devaluation of the stock market and the liquidity crisis in the credit markets, all of these things feel "like, not just the beginning of sorrows", but are beginning to feel like "we already into the sorrows". It's now 2008 and only 15 years to 2023.
Now we shall see regarding "date setting" and all that, but my point to you is this, Forever His, the examples that you are giving that "things are getting worse in morality" and "the pillars of Christianity are being attacked on every front", these are not really "Biblical" signs, because if anything, the Bible teaches that "they will be eating and drinking, and getting married", just as usual (not much different than before, now or ever), and "did not know that the end had come until the flood carried them away".
Yes, this seems to be "the time of the end" after the time of the Gentiles was fulfilled, most likely in 1967, but I think if you are going to use "moral decadence" and "attacks on the pillars of Christianity" as the REASONS why Jesus is "coming soon", then THOSE reasons have been around forever (or at least since the first century though the Israelites were hated too) and therefore THOSE reasons cannot be used to "show that things are now WORSE THAN EVER", because that is historically simply not true.
I do sense that this is the time of the end, but NOT because things are "morally worse" and NOT because the "pillars are (still) being attacked".
love, Eden
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The Beauty of Holiness777
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quote:
Forever His wrote;
My desire is to understand what in the world did God have in mind in allowing all of this to begin in the first place.
This maybe one of the questions God hears the most. WHY?
Why do He let things happen sometimes I think it's to show the creatures that they cannot contend with the the Creator even satan himself.
Nevertheless, it's our reasonable service to obey Him, trust Him, and do His Will whether we sometimes understand His ways or not. For He is the potter we are the clay can we strive against our maker for it is He who forms and fashion us to His liken.
For His ways are not our ways nor His thoughts our thoughts. His ways and thoughts are so much higher than ours. (Isaiah 55:8-9) But His way is perfect. (Psalm 18:30)
His way is by faith not by sight and to question His way of doing things is not wise for that is to question God Himself, His judgment, His character and His nature for His way is perfect.
God has designed a plan for He said in Isaiah 14:24; Surely as I have thought, so shall it come to pass. And as I have purposed, so shall it stand.
Nothing can stop His plans and they are coming into place everyday. This world has a destiny with God for to the world His plan seems foolish (1 Corin. 1:8), but is greater than our wisdom.
God created free beings, the angels and human beings. God didn't want people or angels to do what they do because they were programed to do it. God created His creation man, because He desire a true loving relationship with man and they would and will do His Will because they love Him; and Him only will they serve.
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In God I'am Complete.
I am a "Spiritual Being" living in a physical body.
{Prayer - a force that reaches people and places when we can't}
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Forever His
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Dear Eden I have a question to ask you... do you not sense that something is different and that we are aproaching the end of this age as we know it ? Are we not seeing things portrayed in the scripture's such as Mat 24 and Revelation [ as a whole] not coming to pass exactly as predicted? I am just wondering ?
Thank you
Forever His
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Eden
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my dear friend Forever His, it pains me to have to disagree with you to this extent, because heretofore I have been so heartfelt with everything you have ever you...but this rebuttal is necessary too.
You wrote quote:
It is very clear to me that sin is abounding like nevr before "in my day " I believe my points were clear enough. When I was a child I blushed [I really did] when Roy Rogers kissed the beautiful damsel at the end of the show... yet Hollywood was in their innocence back then... look where it is now? How can we miss that? And the same goes for ponography, abortion homosexuality etc.
My friend, if you only knew historically, by which alone "worse" and "better" or "as good as" can be measured, now compared to historically, there have been far darker days than this on the earth.
By comparison what is happening in the West with more immorality and flesh-showing, historically there have been many societies which have had "far worser habits" than what we are seeing in the West. If you only knew, you would be so-o thankful!!!!!
To repeat what you wrote quote:
It is very clear to me that sin is abounding like nevr before "in my day " I believe my points were clear enough. When I was a child I blushed [I really did] when Roy Rogers kissed the beautiful damsel at the end of the show...
Uh, how does that compared with being skinned alive and tied down for the rats to have fun on? So you blushed!
Do you blush now?
love, Eden
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Eden
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Hi, Forever His, Eden had written quote:
As for this war that you say is going on in the spiritual realm, how do YOU know that this war is "now worse than it ever has been" (I paraphrase), because YOU cannot SEE this war since it is INVISIBLE.
Forever His then answered[quote]Of course I can.... spiritual things are spiritual discernable... we may not see the wind... but we can certainly see the results of the wind.[/b]True, but you don't know if the "results" of the wind are better, or worse, than former conditions, and that was part of your Topic premise, was it not?
love, Eden
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Eden
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oneinchrist had written quote:
Also, when I say "side effect" I mean something that God was willing to allow that would have to be part of executing His grandor plan.....not that it was an "oops" or a mal-function
And then Forever His answered quote:
Now this gets to the heart of things that gets me excited about this topic.
How is it that an all knowing God who sees the beginning from the end would have allowed this rebellion to start in the first place?
After all God knew when He created Lucifer that he would rebel. Why would God do that knowing of the rebellion beforehand? Why not just leave this one angel out of His creation?
God also knew that Adam and Eve would fall into sin. Why would God not settle the rebellion with Lucifer first? After all that would make a lot more sense wouldn’t it?
Why make mankind right in the middle of the war?
These are the questions that got me started some time back.
These are some very interesting questions, Forever His. I am going to read some more to see what the answer is.
love, Eden
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Forever His
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Hi bloodbought I am very glad that you stopped in for this topic. I was hoping that you would. As Eden pointed out Lucifer was created perfect yet the day came that iniquity was found in him and then the question was asked... how art thou fallen ? I believe that says a lot in a few words.
To further add to what we know and understand we have Jesus words which say
John 8:44 Ye are of [your] father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
So those words add a lot further information. Satan was a liar and the father of it. God created Lucifer perfect in every way and gave him a high position in the kingdom... yet Lucifer chose to look for more ... he chose rebellion and began a war that has brought destruction unto God's perfect creation.
My desire is to understand more fully what in the world did God have in mind in allowing all of this to begin in the first place... I hope that we each will learn and grow as we further study this topic...
Forever His
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Forever His
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Eden wrote:
quote:
As for this war that you say is going on in the spiritual realm, how do YOU know that this war is "now worse than it ever has been" (I paraphrase), because YOU cannot SEE this war since it is INVISIBLE.
Of course I can.... ![[Wink]](wink.gif) spiritual things are spiritual discernable... we may not see the wind... but we can certainly see the results of the wind.
It is very clear to me that sin is abounding like nevr before "in my day " I believe my poiunts were clear enough. When I was a child I blushed [ I really did ![[Smile]](smile.gif) ] when Roy Rogers kissed the beautiful damsel at the end of the show... yet Hollywood was in their innocence back then... look where it is now ? How can we miss that ? And the same goes for ponography, abortion homosexuality etc.
Anyway ... I would like to think that there are those here who would agree that things have gotten progressively worse over the last fifty or so years.
I do totaly agree with your points about the decay of societies where prosperity leads to demorilization over time.
Hey... good to hear from you.
God Bless
Forever His
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Forever His
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oneinChrist wrote:
quote:
he permitted these creations to have freedom of expression. If this were not the case, then how would Lucifer have been able to concoct a rebellion against God?
Exactly… and I believe that we need to take notice that this rebellion began right in heaven in the very presence of God’s throne and not off in some minute corner. What began as a seed of rebellion in Lucifers heart… spread into open rebellion and carried others with it.
quote:
Also, when I say "side effect" I mean something that God was willing to allow that would have to be part of executing His grandor plan.....not that it was an "oops" or a mal-function
.
Now this gets to the heart of things that gets me excited about this topic. How is it that an all knowing God who sees the beginning from the end would have allowed this rebellion to start in the first place? After all God knew when He created Lucifer that he would rebel. Why would God do that knowing of the rebellion beforehand? ? Why not just leave this one angel out of His creation?
God also knew that Adam and Eve would fall into sin. Why would God not settle the rebellion with Lucifer first ? After all that would make a lot more sense wouldn’t it ? Why make mankind right in the middle of the war ?
These are the questions that got me started some time back.
Thank you for posting an dmay God Bless
Forever His
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Eden
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Hi, Bloodbought, you wrote quote:
Did Lucifer sin? Is there scripture support to say that Lucifer sinned? I don’t believe he did.
How about these, as The Beauty of Holiness777 also pointed out (though she be not one to post a lot of scriptures)?
Isaiah 14
12 How are you fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! How are you cut down to the ground, which did weaken the nations!
13 For you have said in your heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north.
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
And these:
Ezekiel 28
14 You are the anointed cherub that covers; and I have set you so: you were upon the holy mountain of God; you have walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
15 You were perfect in your ways from the day that you were created, until iniquity was found in you.
16 ... and you have sinned: therefore I will cast you as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy you, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
Bloodbought, you further said quote:
He and his demons are pure evil within themselves, they wanted to dethrone God and get to the top position and that’s why they are not redeemable.
They were perfect in the beginning, but sinned. God is replacing them with human sons and daughters this time. That's why the rebelled angels are not redeemable; God doesn't want or need them anymore. God is not going to redeem them. God is thinking sons and daughter this time.
love, Eden
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Eden
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Hi, The Beauty of Holiness777, this is something we may agree on. You wrote quote:
The blood of Jesus don't cover angels!!! Jesus was a human sacrfice for men; not a Spiritual sacrifice.
Unlike humans angels cannot be redeemed when they rebel against God they are permanently banned.
But we rebelled against God too, but we are not "permanently banned"?
Anyhow, I think that God intends to REPLACE the void left in heaven by the departure of one-third of the angels, by sons and daughters this time.
love, Eden
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Eden
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Hi, Forever His, you wrote to Eden: quote:
The more important part of the war that I was thinking about is not just in the physical realm, but is in the spiritual. I am talking about the war for the hearts and souls of men women and children. Satan has studied this war and it has become obvious that he has a designed purpose to trap and win hearts beginning with our children. He is attacking every pillar of the christian faith like never before and leading people not only into "secret sin" but into open and blatant rebellion against God and His government.
I am not talking about the war that is in our streets... I am talking about the war that is going on in our homes.
Forever His, is the war in the spiritual realm or is the war in the homes?
But not only is this war occurring in the spiritual (and I should add HAS BEEN occurring in the spiritual realm since Lucifer rebelled), but what we see happening in Western Society is also a very natural phenomenon.
In history, any given nation, like Assyria or whatever, rises to power through war and then the men are lean and "mean". And then over time they acquire booty and wealth, and war is much diminished, and they begin to live the "fat-cat" life, which now tends towards the pleasures of life: eating, drinking, revelling, cruising, travel and more.
Eventually almost every successful nation degenerates into self-indulgence and decadency, and we see that happening in fat-cat Western Europe and in USA America too.
But to the discerning person, there are still a multitude of good, and often free, pleasures to participate in, in life, even today.
As for this war that you say is going on in the spiritual realm, how do YOU know that this war is "now worse than it ever has been" (I paraphrase), because YOU cannot SEE this war since it is INVISIBLE.
It is one thing to comment on visible things, but I don't see how you can comment on how things are going in the spiritual realm right now??? LOL
love, Eden
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The Beauty of Holiness777
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Yes Lucifer sinned he had a sin of rebellion against God. Pride caused him to sin.
The blood of Jesus don't cover angels!!!
Jesus was a human sacrfice for men; not a Spiritual sacrifice.
Unlike humans angels cannot be redeemed when they rebell against God they are permanently banned.
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In God I'am Complete.
I am a "Spiritual Being" living in a physical body.
{Prayer - a force that reaches people and places when we can't}
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Bloodbought
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The Beauty of Holiness777 said,
“Lucifer was the first to commit sin in heaven him and the angels that followed him.”
Did Lucifer sin? Is there scripture support to say that Lucifer sinned? I don’t believe he did. He and his demons are pure evil within themselves, they wanted to dethrone God and get to the top position and that’s why they are not redeemable. War in heaven was inevitable. Man is redeemable because man was not created evil, he did have a sin nature, which meant he had the capacity to sin and consequently Eve was tempted and Adam wanted to please his wife rather than God, but the blood of Christ can cleanse from all sin. If Lucifer had sinned the blood could have cleansed him too, if he repented and believed, but he is so evil that he has been on the warpath to counterfeit all that God stands for and that is why his doom is certain.
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The Beauty of Holiness777
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quote:
Daniel wrote;
All in all, I do not believe that we can look at God's character apart from His nature and vise versa.
Totally agree.
God made man for Himself, not to be His puppets or slaves. He gave Adam and Eve freewill in the Garden of Eden, He only ask of them one thing in which they did anyway. God could have made them to obey at His every command but God is a God of Love and HE loved His creations; and He wanted them to love Him for Him not because of the things He could give them. God gave them Paradise on earth the Garden of God (Eden) had it had every possible delight without the need for hard work.
Satan saw this and satan saw and knew that God loved man. Satan also knew God's intention of eternal life for man and that's why he beguiled the woman and they failed for his deciet. Just as we who have parents alived today or who have parents that have passed wanted and want to do things to please them and not to hurt them God is asking for the same kind of love from His creations today. If we had parents or have parents that would bully us and force us to do things out of fear then it wouldn't be true love; it wouldn't be pure love. Therefore it wouldn't account to anything.
A lot of people want the creations (all the things of the world that belongs to God anyway) but they don't want the Creator. This too is why sin creeps in because man have felled in love with God's creations than the God who created all things.
THEY FORGOT; THAT THE EARTH IS THE LORD'S AND THE FULNESS THEREOF. (Psalm 24:1_
For all things were made by Him and for Him and without Him was nothing made that was made. (John 1:1-3)
All things that God made was good nothing was evil but because of men rebellion and sinful ways everything that God made has become contaminated with sin.
This is why there will be a new heaven and a new earth. God is going to set things right once more the way He started out with all things (sinless).
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In God I'am Complete.
I am a "Spiritual Being" living in a physical body.
{Prayer - a force that reaches people and places when we can't}
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The Beauty of Holiness777
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Hi Forever His;
I am not one that likes to post a lot of scriptures but in talking about the War in Heaven which is still going on in the first heaven today in the Spiritual realm; How war in heaven got there in the first place is what most people wonder.
It was because of sin a sin called "Pride" which Lucifer (no.1 Archangel before his fall) processed as Daniel mentioned already.
Ezekiel 28:11-19;
Speaks of the King of Tyrus who is (Satan or Lucifer before his fall) how he wanted to put himself above God as mentioned in
Isaiah 14:12-15
How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning!
How are thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations.
For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven,
I will exalt my throne above the stars of God;
I will sit also upon the mount for the congregation, in the sides of the north.
I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
Yet thou shall be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.
Ezekiel 28:1-10;
Speaks of the prince of Tyrus who is satan (after his fall). This too is why today he is called the "prince of darkness, prince of the air, and prince of Persia as called in Daniel 10:1-14.
Lucifer was the first to commit sin in heaven him and the angels that followed him. Adam and Eve committed sin in The Garden of Eden and their son Cain was the first to commit murder and so it went on, and on.
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In God I'am Complete.
I am a "Spiritual Being" living in a physical body.
{Prayer - a force that reaches people and places when we can't}
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oneinchrist
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Hi Forever His,
In your initial post you made mention of trying to understand the character of God and how it may relate to the war that began in Heaven.
I think that if we go back to the story of lucifer, we can infer that in the beginning when God decided that He would share His existence with others ,who were created in His image, that he permitted these creations to have freedom of expression. If this were not the case, then how would Lucifer have been able to concoct a rebellion against God? I believe that we are shown something particularly interesting, not so much about Gods character, but about His nature. Jesus states that He beheld Lucifer as lightning fell from heaven. This means that something in heaven became so irritating to Gods Holiness that His Holiness had to literally sneeze it out. In other words, God did not say to Lucifer, "Alright, alright now, enough is enough, I am going to have to ask you to leave".
Can you imagine the other angels who were witness? Im sure they were quite happy that they had not chosen to side with Lucifer and his followers.
My question would then be "Could the expulsion of Satan be the first "side effect" that we see in Gods carrying out of His plan to share His existence with us? Please do not misunderstand me. When I say "side effect" I do not mean mistake. God had come up with His plan in time eternity so He knew what would be involved in His plan that would consumate in a people that would ultimately share in His glory forever. Also, when I say "side effect" I mean something that God was willing to allow that would have to be part of executing His grandor plan.....not that it was an "oops" or a mal-function.
So now there are many who see Gods character as one of harsh or unfair because they think that He goes out of the way to make it difficult to get into heaven. They do not realize that God in His infinite wisdom has created only one way, not to make it difficult, but because it was the only way that His Holy nature would BE ABLE to accomplish the plan for us to BE ABLE to share in His glorious presence. What did the Father say to the Son when He asked if there was another way to accomplish mans redemption? nothing.......because if there was another way He would have revealed it to Him.
We are in a world that sees God the wrong way.....as a bully. But if we could get the world to understand the character of God more in the light of His Holiness.....maybe they would not view Him that way. God was never obligated to share His existence with any one of us.......He could have just stayed basking in the sun of His own glory.
So if someone asks, why did God have to create us with the ability to sin? we should ask them why did God have to create us at all? God is desiring that we humans, who have been given the freedom of expression, choose to use it to express our love and gratitude towards Him instead of what Lucifer did.
All in all, I do not believe that we can look at Gods character apart from His nature and vise versa. In His loving character He has decided that He will share His glorious presence with us, and in His Holy nature it can only be accomplished a certain way.
With love in Christ, Daniel
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Forever His
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I was just thinking about the flood and the points that you brought up. You do make a really good point... for we read that the thoughts and intents of the heart were ONLY EVIL continualy back in those days... This is where the war has been intensifying... satan is working overtime to bring this condition of bondage upon mankind once again.
And so technicaly... the war intensifying like never before would apply to " in my lifetime"
which is somewhere over the last fifty or so years
God Bless you Eden...
Forever His.
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Forever His
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Eden wrote:
quote:
And if you disagree, give me a couple of examples of this "great evil that you see" once you go outside of your house?
Thank you Eden for bringing this up, and doing it in such a kind and loving manner.
The more important part of the war that I was thinking about is not just in the physical realm, but in the spiritual. I am talking about the war for the hearts and souls of men women and children. Satan has studied this war and it has become obvious that he has a designed purpose to trap and win hearts beginning with our children. He is attacking every pillar of the christian faith like never before and leading people not only into "secret sin" but into open and blatant rebellion against God and His government.
I am not talking about the war that is in our streets... I am talking about the war that is going on in our homes .
You see we are loosing a far greater war than the physical war which you have so aptly described. For example... we have an alarming divorce rate that has brought about more hurt and sorrow and in essence is the fallout of the moral decay in the hearts of people. If the statistics are true are you aware what websites receive the most traffic ? They tell us that the porn sites have more traffic than any other. I find that staggering and alarming to think about. What does that say about our society?
Are you aware that as much money as Hollywood makes there is a far greater amount being made... by the porn industry selling their material. Can you imagine ? If the porn industry makes more money than Hollywood what does that say about society ?
The impact of broken homes and the fallout that all of this has on our children is not able to be measured. Steven Auterburn says something to the effect that "is it 8 out of 10 " of our children have viewed pornography before the age of 13 ??? To add to the problem we have allowed Hollywood to come into our homes and subtly and blatantly attack every foundation of God's government.
Sexual sin seems to be at or near the forefront of satans attack. We turn on the television and we see guy meets girl and they are in bed before the first commercial. And the commercials are often worse than the show !!! At school our kids are being taught "sexual education" which is merely sexual immorality and the resulting sexually transmitted diseases are the testimony that we are now in a war in epidemic proportions. We are in a war... and sadly we are doing so little about it.
To put what I am saying into context... This is the war that has been intensifying like never before... it is the war for the hearts of people...
It is true that rebellion has always been here... yet in the last few years we are seeing more and more imorality being invited right into our homes, destroying them like never before... the home is the foundation of society. The homosexual agenda is making amazing progress [ look at Canada... it is legal] ... The porn industry as already mentioned... and the abortion industry is BIG buisness in North America, all of these are increasing each year... the battle is escalating like never before [ in our day ] We have been sowing into the wind and we will certainly reap the whirlwind if we do not change our ways...
I'm not into doom and gloom but into the amazing Love of God and so there is where my focus will lie as we move forward looking behind the scenes at the reality of a Love that is so strong that it is the greatest love story ever told. His love sins brightly in the darkness of sin and selfishness. His love is strong enough to help each of us be able to face each day in His strength.
Behold, how good and how pleasant [it is] for brethren to dwell together in unity!
God Bless
Forever His
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Eden
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Hello, Forever His, you know how much I respect your opinion and spiritual sensitivity, but you wrote the following which I wondered about: quote:
As we approach this awesome and "fearful" time looming before us the war between good and evil has been intensifying like never before.
I usually "cringe" when I read a statement that "in our time evil is intensifying LIKE NEVER BEFORE" because to me it shows a lack of historical knowledge (in this one area).
If I may repeat what I just read about the Assyrians of Ashurbanipal and of Esarhaddon around the 7th century B.C.
If an enemy was caught in a siege or in trying to escape from the city, the enemy's nose was cut off, and his ears and hands and feet were cut off. Or he may be impaled by his (you know) on a sharp stick. Or he may be flayed alive.
Or a woman had her breasts cut off and then the wound covered with burning pitch, which hardened into asphalt when exposed to the air, so that it took the person 2 weeks to die.
Not just one victim, but THOUSANDS and THOUSANDS OF VICTIMS.
Dear Fovever His, where do you see SUCH Assyrian-like violence happening on the earth today? When compared to history, our time on earth, and especially in the USA, has been a period of considerable prosperity and peace and physical safety and "compassionate" law and order.
I tell you, Forever His, I would be feeling very differenr right now if I knew that at any moment the "Assyrians of Ashurbanipal" could be knocking on the gate of my city today.
Nothing like that is EVEN CLOSE happening in the USA, for instance. Indeed, the Word seems to say something quite opposite than "evil increasing". Listen to this:
Matthew 24
37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark,
39 And they knew not until the flood came which took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
But on your side is the fact that in the generation before the flood of Noah, that generation has also become especially evil or unjust, as stated here:
Genesis 6
1 And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them,
2 That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.
3 And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.
4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.
5 And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.
(But thanks be to God, that God has provided an even greater Ark to step into, praise God)
Forever His, you further said quote:
Evil is promoted to such a degree that God's Holy law is trampled upon with little or no thought to the fact that there are consequences to its violation.
God's Holy law has been trampled upon since ancient time. First of all, God's Holy law is the law of Israel only, and none of the other "religions" think that the Holy law of Israel is necessarily the "real" one. (Let me be clear here, my God is the God of Israel alone.)
So those other "religions" trample as it were on God's Holy law, meaning, they disregard, even actively oppose, the Holy law of God if God is the God of Israel. So this has been going on since Ham, Shem, and Japheth at Babel.
The Israelites themselves "trampled" on their own God's Holy law, preferring Baal over the Living God. And I just don't see where our God of Israel is being trampled upon NOW MORE THAN EVER?
In the Middle Ages Christians of the "bornagain" ilk have been thrown bound in the local largest river or tied to the burning stake, and pulled apart on the rake. Where do you see that happening TODAY? I don't see that happening???
Again, here in the USA and Canada and Polynesia and South America, the above things are NOT happening at all...in fact, I'm thankful that they are NOT happening, Amen? We are totally blessed on the American continent and other places of considerable peace.
Look, Christianity is a fight everywhere. Christianity is competing with other religions, with devils in high places, and, as your Topic title indicates, "there is war in heaven".
But this "war in heaven" is NOT NEW, it's been going on ever since Lucifer/Satan heard that God planned to replace him and his one-third minions with sons and daughters from earth, through Jesus dying for them.
After Lucifer/Satan heard that and after Lucifer/Satan heard that the Prince Jesus Christ would rule the nations from Jerusalem, there has been war in heaven about who's gonna get that position, Lucifer, or Jesus. So there is war in heaven.
So let me repeat what you said, Forever His: quote:
As we approach this awesome and "fearful" time looming before us the war between good and evil has been intensifying like never before.
Okay, I think generalized evil will intensify just as in the days before the flood, because Jesus said His Second Coming would be "as in the days of Noah", so would His Second Coming be, but it is NOTHING COMPARED TO WHAT THE ASSYRIANS DID FOR 200 YEARS OR SO.
Instead, people are marrying and giving in marriage, they are eating and drinking at the restaurants, indeed, I may ask, what city do you live in that you feel so pessimistic about what is going on outside your door? Know what I mean?
It is easy to SAY that it's all "evil" but when I look out my door in the USA, people are driving nice SUVs, everyone has designer athletic swoosh shoes on, they are eating jumbo scallops or they are on a tight budget (but still in pretty good shape compared to say...Darfur...but living the good life nonetheless.
When I look out my door, Forever His, I see MANY people living "the good life". MANY do not have Jesus and therefore not receive eternal life nor receive permission to enter the world-to-come, but as far as the earth is concerned while they live, they are living pretty good, especially in the Americas, Australia, New Zealand, Western Europe, things are overall pretty quite and peaceful right now, compared to say...the Assyrians of Ashurbanipal, or compared to say...Nero and the Christians dressed in animal skins set weaponless among wild and hungry animals in the Coliseum in Rome, MUCH, MUCH WORSE than anything we see on earth today. And if you disagree, give me a couple of examples of this "great evil that you see" once you go outside of your house?
love, Eden
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Forever His
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posted
Like many christian’s around the world, I too have been sensing an urgency that God is preparing His people for the soon coming, and final events leading to the close of this earth’s history . As we approach this awesome and "fearful" time looming before us the war between good and evil has been intensifying like never before. Evil is promoted to such a degree that God's Holy law is trampled upon with little or no thought to the fact that there are consequences to it's violation. Sin and the pleasures thereof lead to death and unhappiness not just for the " here and now " but for eternity, yet multitudes pass on looking only at the short term gain and gratification they will receive. How little they now know what they have really lost. Yet like Adam and Eve, the day will come that they will see that what they thought was gain, will be seen in the true light and will be revealed as "infinite" loss.
Mankind who was made in the "very image" of God has fallen to such a degree that if it were not for God's infinite patience and mercy we would have destroyed ourselves by our own hardness of heart and selfishness. Yet as we read in the very beginning of this earth's history that after each day of creation God looked and said ... "it was good" .
I believe that if God said that something was "good" ... that it was good in every respect and far exceeded any of our wildest imagination's. Yet when God made man and then looked down upon this earth He proclaimed that it was "very good" ... This tells me that mankind, was God's crowning act of creation. Yet the very earth that which God proclaimed as good has been defiled and is being destroyed and pillaged like there is no tomorrow. What has gone wrong ?
I started this thread to discuss the issues between good and evil and to talk about the war which started in heaven and how it spread to this earth. My interest is to see and try and understand more fully " the character of God " as it is revealed in this great conflict which began as a " War in heaven " . How is it that an all knowing and all seeing God allowed this state of existence in the first place? And why He has allowed it to continue for some six thousand years? Please pray that God will send us His Spirit and Bless us as we study this topic and the issues involved in " The War that began in heaven " .
Thank you and God Bless...
Forever His
Posts: 719 | Registered: Jun 2002
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