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Topic: War in heaven ...
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scythewieldor
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posted
Dear Believers,
I would like help figuring out who this four headed leopard is. Following the control of the Eastern Roman Empire/Byzantium, the earthly Jerusalem endures centuries of Muslim rule, with less than a century of European control occurring, mostly, in the Twelfth Century.
That seems to kill the Germanic leopard construance.
Or, maybe, it kills the assumption that the beasts are to be considered as the succession of governments which have influence over the earthly city of Jerusalem.
What if this succession of governments is connected by regard to the Holy Nation (which was Judah until the crucifixion of Jesus)?
What if the eagle's wings which were on the Lion were plucked in order to be given to the Israel of God composed of the children of the house of Judah which got saved as well as the lost children of the ten northern tribes of Israel being gathered from the gentiles by the New Covenant message?
Then, the Germanic leopard and the longer lasting side of the Roman Empire (Byzantium) would be contemporary governments under which the New Covenant message flourished. (The Byzantium side of the bear pushed the Gospel up into Russia.)
This construance would, still, allow that the ten-horned beast be Islam.
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scythewieldor
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Dear Believers,
The study of the beast of Daniel, then, could be construed to predict this succession of governments over Jerusalem (which would not include Nebuchadnezzar's Babylon because, when Daniel had these revelations, the reign of Nebuchadnezzar's Babylon Over Jerusalem was a current fact).
The Ram....................Medes/Persians
The Rough Goat.............Greece
The Eagle-winged Lion......Jewish under Maccabees
The Bear...................Rome
The Leopard................Germanic of Crusades
The Ten-horned.............Islamic
The Apocalyptic presentation of Daniel's Ten-horned beast composed of parts of the three previous beasts of Daniel may be telling us that a restructuring of the Jewish, Roman, and Germanic influences over Jerusalem under Islam is in the cards.
In that case, it is not hard to identify "the saints" which that Ten-horned beast will engage in war, and overcome- worldwide.
Now, my mother believes that the saints will be raptured- just like Jesus. Well...Jesus was killed and resurrected before He ascended.
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scythewieldor
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Dear Believers,
As I recall, many people want to make Rome (or, revised Rome) the ten horned beast of Daniel and The Revelation. They, also, want to make the leopard of Daniel Greece, I think. However, considering God's law that every thing has to bring forth according to it's kind, Greece can't be a leopard.
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Da 8:20 The ram which thou sawest having two horns are the kings of Media and Persia.
21 And the rough goat is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king.
22 Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power.
Maybe, the four kings that came up in Alexander's place are the kindoms of Daniel 7...
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3 And four great beasts came up from the sea, diverse one from another.
However, I rather think not.
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4 The first was like a lion, and had eagle’s wings: I beheld till the wings thereof were plucked, and it was lifted up from the earth, and made stand upon the feet as a man, and a man’s heart was given to it.
The lion is a symbol of Judah (however, may be not this time). The image of the eagle's wings are very strongly connected with Israel.
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Ex 19:4 Ye have seen what I did unto the Egyptians, and how I bare you on eagles’ wings, and brought you unto myself.
5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:
6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.
Re 12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
As I recall, there is an image of a lion with eagle's wings in Babylon. Of course, that could, still, be an image of Jehoiachin who was a chief king in Babylon.
The image of the bear raised up on one side is a pretty good picture of the Roman empire which was divided into the eastern and western empires by Constantine (I think). The eastern Roman Empire, Byzantium, lasted about a thousand years longer than the western- not falling until, about, a generation before the discovery of America by Columbus.
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Da 7:5 And behold another beast, a second, like to a bear, and it raised up itself on one side, and it had three ribs in the mouth of it between the teeth of it: and they said thus unto it, Arise, devour much flesh.
I don't know what the ribs stood for; however, Rome did occupy parts of three continents.
The leopard is interesting. It could stand for the Germanic peoples who possessed Europe after the fall of the western Roman Empire. Some of the Germanic peoples used the image/images of leopards on their flags. The SDA's think the German's were represented by ten kings ( again, as I recall). I have read that Europe was controlled by four main Germanic groups: Visigoths, Ostrogoths, Anglo-Saxons, and Franks.
The connection between these four groups and the knightly orders that fought in the Crusades is interesting.
The last beast of Daniel, which I seem to want to compare to one in The Revelation, is the one that lasts until the end of something. It seems like it lasts until Jesus comes back.
The beast in The Revelation seems to be made of parts of the first three beasts of Daniel 7.
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Re 13:1 ¶ And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.
2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.
3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.
4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?
5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
Considering that the next beast is that two-horned False Prophet, it leaves some of the hypotheticals of my previous post unsupportable as they were presented.
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scythewieldor
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Dear Believers,
Did you ever wonder how iniquity was found in "the anointed cherub that covereth"?
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Eze 28:14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
If he is the one we think he is, might not it have been found in him when he caused the Prince of Life to be executed as a criminal?
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Ac 3:12 ¶ And when Peter saw it, he answered unto the people, Ye men of Israel, why marvel ye at this? or why look ye so earnestly on us, as though by our own power or holiness we had made this man to walk?
13 The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, hath glorified his Son Jesus; whom ye delivered up, and denied him in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let him go.
14 But ye denied the Holy One and the Just, and desired a murderer to be granted unto you;
15 And killed the Prince of life, whom God hath raised from the dead; whereof we are witnesses.
Maybe, like a law man who is found guilty of false arrest, Satan was removed from his position as Accuser because he accused and executed the One against whom no evil could be found.
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Lu 23:13 ¶ And Pilate, when he had called together the chief priests and the rulers and the people,
14 Said unto them, Ye have brought this man unto me, as one that perverteth the people: and, behold, I, having examined him before you, have found no fault in this man touching those things whereof ye accuse him:
15 No, nor yet Herod: for I sent you to him; and, lo, nothing worthy of death is done unto him.
16 I will therefore chastise him, and release him.
Was Pilate not talking to the children whose father was Satan?
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John 8:42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
Were they not the synagogue of Satan?
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Re 2:9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.
Re 3:9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.
Ro 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
The fact is that God had declared the children of Israel, including the Jews, to be his children at the ratification of the first covenant. Evidently, people are children of the protector with which they enter covenant.
Since we know that Jesus was not lying when He said what He did about those children of the devil, it makes me want to find when that change of parenting occurred. It may have been while they were in Babylon.
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Eze 17:11 Moreover the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
12 Say now to the rebellious house, Know ye not what these things mean? tell them, Behold, the king of Babylon is come to Jerusalem, and hath taken the king thereof, and the princes thereof, and led them with him to Babylon;
13 And hath taken of the king’s seed, and made a covenant with him, and hath taken an oath of him: he hath also taken the mighty of the land:
14 That the kingdom might be base, that it might not lift itself up, but that by keeping of his covenant it might stand.
15 But he rebelled against him in sending his ambassadors into Egypt, that they might give him horses and much people. Shall he prosper? shall he escape that doeth such things? or shall he break the covenant, and be delivered?
16 As I live, saith the Lord GOD, surely in the place where the king dwelleth that made him king, whose oath he despised, and whose covenant he brake, even with him in the midst of Babylon he shall die.
2 Chr 36:11 ¶ Zedekiah was one and twenty years old when he began to reign, and reigned eleven years in Jerusalem.
12 And he did that which was evil in the sight of the LORD his God, and humbled not himself before Jeremiah the prophet speaking from the mouth of the LORD.
13 And he also rebelled against king Nebuchadnezzar, who had made him swear by God: but he stiffened his neck, and hardened his heart from turning unto the LORD God of Israel.
14 Moreover all the chief of the priests, and the people, transgressed very much after all the abominations of the heathen; and polluted the house of the LORD which he had hallowed in Jerusalem.
15 And the LORD God of their fathers sent to them by his messengers, rising up betimes, and sending; because he had compassion on his people, and on his dwelling place:
16 But they mocked the messengers of God, and despised his words, and misused his prophets, until the wrath of the LORD arose against his people, till there was no remedy.
It may have been that this covenant with the king of Babylon brought to bear a connection between Jehoiachin and Babylon that has yet to be understood.
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2 Ki 25:27 And it came to pass in the seven and thirtieth year of the captivity of Jehoiachin king of Judah, in the twelfth month, on the seven and twentieth day of the month, that Evilmerodach king of Babylon in the year that he began to reign did lift up the head of Jehoiachin king of Judah out of prison;
28 And he spake kindly to him, and set his throne above the throne of the kings that were with him in Babylon;
29 And changed his prison garments: and he did eat bread continually before him all the days of his life.
30 And his allowance was a continual allowance given him of the king, a daily rate for every day, all the days of his life.
Jer 52:31 ¶ And it came to pass in the seven and thirtieth year of the captivity of Jehoiachin king of Judah, in the twelfth month, in the five and twentieth day of the month, that Evilmerodach king of Babylon in the first year of his reign lifted up the head of Jehoiachin king of Judah, and brought him forth out of prison,
32 And spake kindly unto him, and set his throne above the throne of the kings that were with him in Babylon,
33 And changed his prison garments: and he did continually eat bread before him all the days of his life.
34 And for his diet, there was a continual diet given him of the king of Babylon, every day a portion until the day of his death, all the days of his life.
Just how high did the king of Babylon set this king in Babylon? And, since Jehoiachin was set as a king above the other kings in Babylon, when does the reign of Jehoiachin's seed end in Babylon?
Could this covenant of Jehoiachin be the marriage to the daughter of the strange god mentioned in Malachi?
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Mal 2:11 Judah hath dealt treacherously, and an abomination is committed in Israel and in Jerusalem; for Judah hath profaned the holiness of the LORD which he loved, and hath married the daughter of a strange god.
Could the beast that comes up out of the land- the one with two horns like a lamb- be this Jehoiachin who was king of two tribes of Israel? Could the king of Babylon be the beast with ten horns- the one that comes up out of the sea- since he ruled over the nations among which the ten northern tribes of Israel were scattered?
That is the direction of my exploration for the time being.
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scythewieldor
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Dear bluefrog,
I look at this passage...
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Heb 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
When Jesus died, He destroyed him who had the power of death, even the devil. The word for "might destroy" is katargeo.
2673 katargew katargeo kat-arg-eh’-o
from 2596 and 691; TDNT-1:452,76; v
AV-destroy 5, do away 3, abolish 3, cumber 1, loose 1, cease 1, fall 1, deliver 1, misc 11; 27
1) to render idle, unemployed, inactivate, inoperative
1a) to cause a person or thing to have no further efficiency
1b) to deprive of force, influence, power
2) to cause to cease, put an end to, do away with, annul, abolish
2a) to cease, to pass away, be done away
2b) to be severed from, separated from, discharged from, loosed from any one
2c) to terminate all intercourse with one
The devil was discharged from his post before our God. Jesus actually took the place at the Father's right hand.
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Re 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
I think that this represents the change of the rules of cosmic stewardship in heaven from the adversarial trial system (which is still used on earth) to the advocacy system. (We have an advocate.)
The stewardship that passed to Jesus is shared with us. Unfortunately, most of us get brain-stained with an adversarial approach to stewardship in spite of the clear command of our Lord, the Son of God, to be perfect, loving as our Father in heaven loves.
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Col 3:14 And above all these things put on charity, which is the bond of perfectness.
Mt 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?
48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
Mt 19:21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.
2Co 8:9 For ye know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that, though he was rich, yet for your sakes he became poor, that ye through his poverty might be rich.
We (having, now, the stewardship) should be reigning on earth according to the wisdom of The Advocate in heaven. However, the adversary (now, on earth) has found very effective ways to condition us according to the earthly wisdom.
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Ja 3:13 ¶ Who is a wise man and endued with knowledge among you? let him shew out of a good conversation his works with meekness of wisdom.
14 But if ye have bitter envying and strife in your hearts, glory not, and lie not against the truth.
15 This wisdom descendeth not from above, but is earthly, sensual, devilish.
16 For where envying and strife is, there is confusion and every evil work.
17 But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy.
18 And the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace of them that make peace.
So, I put it to you like this. The devil has NO authority. What he has is lies. He is using deception to get us to use, for hellish purposes, the authority that has been dispensed to us.
(The meaning of the word, dispensation, has been left behind by some. It means "stewardship", and it is quite a stewardship, indeed. Paul tells us that all things are ours, and, that we are joint-heirs with Jesus. All authority in heaven and in earth is His.)
People who listen to Rushbo and Shannity are hearing the wisdom that is demonic. They do business and politics with that wisdom. Thus, the world is set on fire and, that, with the fire of hell.
The people of God could flip this whole planet in 10 years using the wisdom that is from above- the words of our Lord Jesus Christ and the doctrine which is according to godliness. However, there are whole denominations that teach that the words of Jesus are not for us- not for this age.
Can you say "tares"? Can you say "darnel"?
The war in heaven is over. It's show time on earth, and too many of God's people have accepted a demon for a coach.
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bluefrog
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posted
I know you are right Mr. S, coffee and donuts will do also. Guess we have to settle for puter puttins, huh ?
Now, about this here war in heaven thang. I could answer it real fast but I'ma gonna stuff in some good stuff before I do.
When there is a war there is an enemy. I won't get into all the fun stuff talkin about him but some I will:
Satan is introduced in Gen 3, through a serpant who tempts Eve.
In Job 1:6-12 we see his ability to use supernatural influence and observe man and earth.
In 1 Chr 21:1 and Zech 3:1,2 he shows up as a personal being.
In Isaiah 14:12-15 it tells of Satans fall from heaven as a proud ruler.
In Ezek 28:11-19 it shows him as a king until wickedness was found in him. A guardian cherub on the Holy Mount of God until pride set in. Then he became an enemy of God and God's people.
He is a created being. Christ is God. Created beings have limited powers and his doom is certain.
Note: Satan, being an overseer had the ability to see if trouble was on the horizon in his job description.
Moving on....Satans rebellion is permitted temporarily but being created, his power is limited and his doom is certain. He as with all of God's created beings, that's us too, must stand before the judgement seat before elimination or given our new spiritual body.
Christ came to destroy the devils work. He resisted Satan (Mk 4:1-11) cast out demons (Mk 3:22) He died and was resurrected and shattered the power of Satan (Col 2:14)
1John 3:8-9 confirms that those who sin are of the devil, for he sinneth from the beginning. Those who are born of God do not sin because God's seed remains in him and he cannot sin because he is born of God. How's that grab ya?
Satan is still in action. Christians are told to resist and he will flee (James 4:7) The one in you is greater than the one of the world.(1Jn 4:4)
Luke 10:18-20 says we have the power to tread on the enemy.
Mt 25:41-46 tells us that the devil is cursed and will be cast into hell with his angels for everlasting punishment.
Rev. 20:7-10 says at historys end, satan will be bound for 1,000 years, then briefly loosened and finally cast into a lake of fire...WAR IS OVER.
![[hyper]](graemlins/hyper.gif)
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scythewieldor
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Dear bluefrog,
I bet we would get a lot more settled if we were spending Saturday mornings together over coffee and donuts. We would pro'bly end up liking eech uther a lot in spite of how ignrint we all are.
'Cept the guys who make a livin' tellin' everwun how stupid we r.
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bluefrog
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WHEW !!
There sure is a lot of jumpin around and scripture writing. It has been a long journey through this particular topic.
Maybe I will try to simplify all this, but after I read the comments a few more times. Not claiming to be a know-it-all, cause I'm not.
It seems to me that shorter scripts would be easier to work with. Especially on this subject you are talking about time since creation until the new heaven. Gotta remember too, that in Revelation it jumps back and forth from on earth to in heaven about 14 times.
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scythewieldor
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Dear Caretaker,
I am against destroying the literal meaning of the Bible. Unless the Holy Spirit specifically prepares the reader of the bible to expect a simile, metaphor, hyperbole, or analogy, I presume the context of literalness.
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scythewieldor
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Dear WildB,
Yes. The Holy Ghost made the elders of Ephesus overseers/bishops.
Dear Caretaker,
Having just read your posts on preterism in the Exposing False Doctrine forum, I know that I am not a preterist by most of those benchmarks.
For one, I do not believe that Jerusalem was Babylon. (I believe that the Babylon of the prophecies to which so many references are made in The Revelation is Babylon.)
I do believe that Jesus is coming back to earth just as He went.
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Ac 1:9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
Lu 24:50 ¶ And he led them out as far as to Bethany, and he lifted up his hands, and blessed them.
51 And it came to pass, while he blessed them, he was parted from them, and carried up into heaven.
He's coming back to the Mount of Olives with such an impact as to split it in two.
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Zec 14:4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
I do not believe God is through with the Jews. In fact, until the Jews repent and are converted, Jesus remains in heaven.
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Ac 3:13 The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, hath glorified his Son Jesus; whom ye delivered up, and denied him in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let him go.
14 But ye denied the Holy One and the Just, and desired a murderer to be granted unto you;
15 And killed the Prince of life, whom God hath raised from the dead; whereof we are witnesses.
16 And his name through faith in his name hath made this man strong, whom ye see and know: yea, the faith which is by him hath given him this perfect soundness in the presence of you all.
17 And now, brethren, I wot that through ignorance ye did it, as did also your rulers.
18 But those things, which God before had shewed by the mouth of all his prophets, that Christ should suffer, he hath so fulfilled.
19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;
20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.
I believe that Zechariah tells us about the very day of their conversion.
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Zec 12:5 And the governors of Judah shall say in their heart, The inhabitants of Jerusalem shall be my strength in the LORD of hosts their God.
6 In that day will I make the governors of Judah like an hearth of fire among the wood, and like a torch of fire in a sheaf; and they shall devour all the people round about, on the right hand and on the left: and Jerusalem shall be inhabited again in her own place, even in Jerusalem.
7 The LORD also shall save the tents of Judah first, that the glory of the house of David and the glory of the inhabitants of Jerusalem do not magnify themselves against Judah.
8 In that day shall the LORD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the LORD before them.
9 ¶ And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
I am NOT anti-Semitic. It is the burden of the Christians to show mercy to the Jews until they obtain mercy.
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Ro 11:28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers’ sakes.
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
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WildB
Moderator
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posted
"That having been settled, we know that the Holy Ghost made elders overseers in Acts 20."
ELDERS not APOSTLES.
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That is all.....
Posts: 8775 | From: USA, MICHIGAN | Registered: Mar 2004
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scythewieldor
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Dear Caretaker,
Thank you very much for helping me to sort things out. I know that you are aware of two men named James being important to the spread of the gospel.
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Ac 12:2 And he killed James the brother of John with the sword.
Ac 12:17 But he, beckoning unto them with the hand to hold their peace, declared unto them how the Lord had brought him out of the prison. And he said, Go shew these things unto James, and to the brethren. And he departed, and went into another place.
Ac 15:13 And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Men and brethren, hearken unto me:
Ac 21:18 And the day following Paul went in with us unto James; and all the elders were present.
It appears to me that, with the execution of the first of those James's in Acts 12, the persecution had become well advanced (as documented in Acts 11)- and long before 65 AD.
Your reference to internals is a bit vague to me.
If that handling is a question of elders and bishops, then, we must differentiate between the Greek words rendered bishop, overseer, and elder.
In doing that, we will find that overseer is the same as bishop.
That having been settled, we know that the Holy Ghost made elders overseers in Acts 20.
However, I perceive that you have more to offer me on that subject. I'm in "receive" mode, so please...
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scythewieldor
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Dear Caretaker,
I haven't, yet, addressed the letters to the seven churches. Excuse me, please, from that inference.
I guess, however, that since I was the one to bring up the statement that the message of The Revelation was given in signs per the first verse, I must accept the possibility that those seven churches were signs. I had not, as yet.
I took them to be messages to literal churches the modern life of which I am unable to discuss.
In understanding the nature of Israel, I most certainly am not a Replacement Theologian. I repeat, most certainly, I am not a replacement theologian.
If you have not read the stuff I have presented from the prophets and apostles showing that the scattered children of the house of Israel are the people being converted from the gentiles while the children of the house of Judah have been, and are being, converted composing the New Covenant Israel of God, I do not expect you to understand my approach to the subject of eschatology- not at all.
Knowing that your next mis-preconception is likely to be that I am a white Israelite, I declare, plainly, that the the twelve tribes of Israel had five different mothers. One of those was Egyptian. Two of those may have been descended from Canaan.
There is no way the twelve tribes were the same in complexion.
In Romans 9, Paul tells us the identity of the vessels of mercy, which God had, afore, prepared unto glory.
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22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
Here, Paul asserts that the calling of those who were of the gentiles was the same as the calling of those who were of the Jews. He follows this by referring to the prophets who described the callings.
quote:
Ro 9:25 ¶ As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.
27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:
28 For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth.
The first reference to the calling was to the northern kingdom of Israel which one, when he looks at the context of that prophecy in Hosea, finds to be to a people different from the children of the house of Judah.
The second reference to the calling is, again, to the northern kingdom of Israel which one, when he looks at the context of that prophecy in Is. 10, finds can, in no way, mean the children of the house of Judah because the Assyrian that took the northern people into exile never took the children of the southern kingdom into exile (though he intended to).
The third reference to the calling was, specifically, to Judah and Jerusalem. It is found in the first chapter of Isaiah.
Eschatology is not my strength because everything that has been presented to me concerning the last days totally refuses to acknowledge what the apostles said about the fulfillment of prophecy to the northern kingdom of Israel.
I'm starting from scratch, which may be (in some way) better than looking forward to something rendered, largely, irrelevant by the lack of God's definition for Israel.
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Caretaker
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Quote:
James, who was one of the apostles who remained at Jerusalem while Israelites were being driven from Judea by their Jewish persecutors, wrote this to the twelve tribes scattered abroad...
quote: Ja 1:1 ¶ James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.
18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.
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Your premise is flawed, as rather than James being written during the Jewish persecution of the Jerusalem Church, to a scattered and persecuted Church, Jerusalem was still in fact the leadership. The Book of James was one of the early writings while the Church was primarily Jewish in membership and the leadership in Jerusalem under James. It was probably written about 45 AD, before the first Jerusalem Council, and James was martyred about 62 AD.
That is why it was addressed to the "Twelve Tribes", and why its internals reference elders but not deacons or Bishops, for one example.
It was to James and the Elders in Jerusalem to which Paul and Peter turned to resolve the Gentile issue.
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A Servant of Christ,
Drew
1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..
Posts: 3978 | From: Council Grove, KS USA | Registered: Jun 2002
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Caretaker
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quote:
Originally posted by scythewieldor:
Dear Caretaker,
To be considered a good writer is more than I hoped for myself. To be considered excellent in eschatology is more than I hope for any of us.
Remember, please...
I fully expect to see Jesus return as He left- bodily.
I fully expect the restoration of Israel as a nation in the land which God promised to the seed of Abraham.
I fully expect all the nations to be gathered against Israel for a mighty battle.
I, too, believe these things have not, yet, happened.
One of the differences between the eschatology that I am exploring and the one you hold depends on the the result of study that shows that Israel can not be defined as "the Jews", though they be Israelites.
James, who was one of the apostles who remained at Jerusalem while Israelites were being driven from Judea by their Jewish persecutors, wrote this to the twelve tribes scattered abroad...
quote:
Ja 1:1 ¶ James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.
18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.
Thus, his testimony to, evidently, people who are contemporaries of his match something John talks about in The Revelation.
quote:
Re 14:4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.
I am trying to explore the "whole counsel of God" with the expectation that I will find out that "His ways are past finding out". No one, yet, has found out all the ways of God.
quote:
Ro 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: {*}
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers’ sakes.
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
33 ¶ O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
34 For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?
35 Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?
36 For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.
Since the eschatologies with which I am familiar do not allow for the fact that the people who are in Christ are, in fact, Abraham's seed, as I look at the Revelation I am forced to consider some things that I haven't been taught.
#1 You were inferring that the events of Revelation to the 7 Churches had already transpired with the destruction of Jerusalem.
Which is error.
#2 We are Abraham's seed, grafted in:
Gal. 3:
24: Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25: But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
26: For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27: For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28: There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29: And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
3# The Church did not bring forth the Man Child:
Rev. 14:
1: And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:
2: And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.
3: And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
4: And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
5: And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
6: And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
All Israel shall be saved, but if the Church has replaced Israel then is not the Church saved?
This is the error of Replacement Theology when they try to place the word "Church" in scripture to replace the word "Israel".
Romans 11:
26: And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
Has not Christ already taken away the sins of His Body the Church on Calvary?
Those who replace Israel with the Church do a disservice to God's Word, and have to interpret so many prophecies through a veil of error.
The coming Tribulation is God's judgment upon Nation Israel, and the Remnant who will come to recognize their true Messiah:
Rev. 7:
3: Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.
4: And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.
5: Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand.
6: Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nepthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand.
7: Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand.
8: Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.
Rev. 12:
14: And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
15: And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
16: And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
17: And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
I said you were a prolific typist not a good writer.
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A Servant of Christ,
Drew
1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..
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scythewieldor
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Dear Caretaker,
Thank you for helping with the time-setting of The Revelation. I will take time to look up that Church of Smyrna thing. If you have something handy on that, I would be glad- more than glad- to read it.
I do know that Mystery Babylon has not yet been destroyed for people are still buying from the merchants.
I don't think I am a preterist.
Keep helping search this stuff out, please.
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scythewieldor
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Dear Caretaker,
To be considered a good writer is more than I hoped for myself. To be considered excellent in eschatology is more than I hope for any of us.
Remember, please...
I fully expect to see Jesus return as He left- bodily.
I fully expect the restoration of Israel as a nation in the land which God promised to the seed of Abraham.
I fully expect all the nations to be gathered against Israel for a mighty battle.
I, too, believe these things have not, yet, happened.
One of the differences between the eschatology that I am exploring and the one you hold depends on the the result of study that shows that Israel can not be defined as "the Jews", though they be Israelites.
James, who was one of the apostles who remained at Jerusalem while Israelites were being driven from Judea by their Jewish persecutors, wrote this to the twelve tribes scattered abroad...
quote:
Ja 1:1 ¶ James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.
18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.
Thus, his testimony to, evidently, people who are contemporaries of his match something John talks about in The Revelation.
quote:
Re 14:4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.
I am trying to explore the "whole counsel of God" with the expectation that I will find out that "His ways are past finding out". No one, yet, has found out all the ways of God.
quote:
Ro 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: {*}
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers’ sakes.
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
33 ¶ O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
34 For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?
35 Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?
36 For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.
Since the eschatologies with which I am familiar do not allow for the fact that the people who are in Christ are, in fact, Abraham's seed, as I look at the Revelation I am forced to consider some things that I haven't been taught.
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Caretaker
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quote:
Originally posted by scythewieldor:
Dear Believers,
However, the eighth beast and the false prophet having, possibly, already gone into the Lake of Fire, and, Satan having, possibly, been placed into the pit,
The Great Day of God Almighty may be the next big event. [/QUOTE]
Your convoluted interpretation of Revelation to support your preterist interpretations leaves a great deal to be desired and is very poor exegesis.
The Beast and the False Prophet are cast into the Lake of Fire upon the Return of Christ, and at that time is Satan bound for a Thousand years, according to the Word. And our Lord has yet to return where every eye shall see and every tongue confess, with clouds of Glory:
Rev. 19:
11: And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
12: His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
13: And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
14: And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
15: And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
16: And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
17: And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
18: That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.
19: And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
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20: And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
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21: And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.
Rev. 20:
1: And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2: And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3: And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
Your eschatology does not line-up with the Word of God, scythewieldor, and you have to render far too many passages symbolic to try to wrest scripture into your pet theories and into your specific mold.
John was shown visions of events that were yet to come, while on the Island of Patmos. If it was prior to 70 AD, then the Church at Smyrna did not yet exist, as told by Polycarp the Bishop of Smyrna. The Church at Smyrna was founded around 93 AD and Polycarp was martyred after 155 AD.
Rev. 2:
8: And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive;
9: I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.
10: Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.
11: He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.
You need to lay aside your preconceptions and open your heart to the straightforward truth of God's Word.
Stop wresting scripture and allow God to illuminate it within your heart and understanding.
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A Servant of Christ,
Drew
1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..
Posts: 3978 | From: Council Grove, KS USA | Registered: Jun 2002
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Caretaker
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Date of Revelation
Today, the overwhelming consensus of scholarship believes that Revelation was written well after a.d. 70. Most have concluded that Revelation was written around a.d. 95, primarily because of the statement by early church father Irenaeus (a.d. 120-202) around a.d. 180.
We will not, however, incur the risk of pronouncing positively as to the name of Antichrist; for if it were necessary that his name should be distinctly revealed in this present time, it would have been announced by him who beheld the apocalyptic vision. For that was seen not very long time since, but almost in our day, towards the end of Domitian's reign.[2]
It is important to note that Irenaeus was from Asia Minor (modern Turkey). The Apostle John was also from Ephesus in Asia Minor. Irenaeus was discipled in the faith by Polycarp who was discipled by the Apostle John. Thus, there is a direct link between the one who wrote Revelation and Irenaeus. This strongly supports the credibility of Irenaeus and his statement. Significantly, no other tradition relating to the date of Revelation developed or gained a following in this part of the world. This is the very area to which the Revelation was given. Later, other traditions developed in the territories of Christendom of a different time of the writing of Revelation. However, these were areas where Revelation was not taken as literally as in Asia Minor. It appears logical that if the theory teaching an earlier date of Revelation were genuine, then it should have had a witness to it in Asia Minor and would have begun earlier than the fifth and sixth centuries. If the early date were really true, then it would have had a 30-year head start to establish itself within early church tradition. However, that is not what happened. Such reality argues against the early date view and is a strong support for the late date view.
Further support for Irenaeus' statement is seen in some of the early enemies of Irenaeus' interpretation of Revelation. Clement of Alexandria, Origen, and Eusebius, to name just a few, support Irenaeus' statement of a Domitian date. They did not believe that the statement of Irenaeus was not clear and should be doubted, as many contemporary preterists desperately contend. Yet all the ancients who were on record concerning this mater accept our understanding of Irenaeus, as do modern translators. It is also not true that early date support goes back to a single individual (although there would be nothing wrong with that since the truth of a matter is often traced back to a single source), since Hegesippus'�� (a.d. 150) testimony pre-dates Irenaeus.[3]
"The first clear, accepted, unambiguous witness to the Neronic date is a one-line subscription in the Syriac translation of the New Testament in a.d. 550," notes Mark Hitchcock. "Only two other external witnesses to the early date exist: Arethas (c. 900) and Theophylact (d. 1107)." This is scant "evidence," needless to say, upon which to draw such dogmatic conclusion, as is often done by many Preterists. On the other hand, Hitchcock notes that the late date "has an unbroken line of support form some of the greatest, most reliable names in church history, beginning in a.d. 150. . . . The external evidence from church history points emphatically to the a.d. 95 date for the composition of Revelation."[4]
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The Revelation of John is NOT the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD.
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A Servant of Christ,
Drew
1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..
Posts: 3978 | From: Council Grove, KS USA | Registered: Jun 2002
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scythewieldor
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Dear Believers,
Not knowing, for sure, the date of the writing of The Revelation, it is hard to say whether Jerusalem was already destroyed. Considering that Jerusalem was presented in Rev. 11 as a city which is spiritually called Sodom and Egypt (these two places being well known as ones from which God's favored people were taken), the sign may be an explanation for the Christians who were forced to leave. If Jerusalem were not, yet, destroyed, however, it may be a warning to the believers still there.
In either case, the two witnesses could have been the Law and the Prophets which foretold all the things which would happen to Jerusalem, including the first coming of the one and only begotten Son of God. Dressed in the mourning clothes of sackcloth, they could be a sign of the eminent doom of Jerusalem.
With the second possibility in mind (i.e., that Jerusalem was not, yet, destroyed), that would mean, hypothetically, that the beast which ascends out of the bottomless pit and kills the two witnesses did so by the time of the destruction of Jerusalem.
If that beast is the same as the one John sees in Rev. 17...
quote:
8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.
9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.
10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.
11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.
...five of the beasts had already had their time, the sixth was active at the time of the writing, and the seventh would work for a short time.
However, the eighth beast and the false prophet having, possibly, already gone into the Lake of Fire, and, Satan having, possibly, been placed into the pit, the demons which proceeded out of their mouths might not be prevented from continuing their work.
quote:
Rev 16:13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
The Great Day of God Almighty may be the next big event.
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Caretaker
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One might want to note that Paul references three heavens, as being caught-up to the Third Heaven.
The Dragon is cast-out of Heaven and will persecute the Nation Israel, the Woman who brought forth the Man Child who will rule:
Rev. 12:
10: And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
11: And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
12: Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
13: And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
14: And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
15: And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
16: And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
17: And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
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A Servant of Christ,
Drew
1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..
Posts: 3978 | From: Council Grove, KS USA | Registered: Jun 2002
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Caretaker
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Rev. 1:
7: Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
One should note that there are two separate events which Jesus is referencing the destruction of the Temple, AND His return.
scythewieldor is attempting to place them together with a Peterist perspective, that the events have already occurred.
We have yet to behold the Two Witnesses preaching in the streets of Jerusalem, struck dead, and laying unburied, resurrected to life and translated to Glory.
Rev. 11:
7: And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
8: And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
9: And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
10: And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.
11: And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
12: And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.
Nation Israel WILL look upon He whom they have pierced and WILL be in mourning, which they have not yet done, AND God will seek to destroy ALL nations which come against Jerusalem:
Zech. 12:
9: And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
10: And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
Zech. 14:
2: For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3: Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
Jesus WILL come again:
Acts 1:
10: And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
11: Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
Matthew 24:
21: For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22: And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
23: Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24: For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25: Behold, I have told you before.
26: Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27: For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
28: For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
29: Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31: And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Wow immediately AFTER the tribulation of those days:
Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Then shall they see the Son of man coming:
and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
scythewieldor is a prolific typist but typing skills does not necessarily mean quality exegesis or an accurate eschatology.
We are preparing to enter the Time of Jacob's Trouble, prior to the glorious return of the Lion of the Tribe of Judah.
One might also want to note that John wrote The Revelation 20 years AFTER the fall of Jerusalem.
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A Servant of Christ,
Drew
1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..
Posts: 3978 | From: Council Grove, KS USA | Registered: Jun 2002
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scythewieldor
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Dear Believers,
I hope you can tell by the phrasing I choose for my words that I am timid concerning the way I present the possibilities for interpreting The Revelation. That having been stated, I want to remind you of the first verse of that book.
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Rev 1:1 ¶ The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
According to this, it seems that Jesus sent an angel to John to tell him what was about to come to pass- and shortly. The angel put this message into signs. In other words, he "signified" the message.
This being the case, the two witnesses in Rev. 11...
quote:
3 ¶ And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
...are signs to which reference has been made in Zechariah 4.
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12 And I answered again, and said unto him, What be these two olive branches which through the two golden pipes empty the golden oil out of themselves?
13 And he answered me and said, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my lord.
14 Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth.
I would like to show you a possible explanation for this passage.
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Mt 16:28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.
Mt 17:1 ¶ And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart,
2 And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.
3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.
Lu 9:27 But I tell you of a truth, there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God.
28 ¶ And it came to pass about an eight days after these sayings, he took Peter and John and James, and went up into a mountain to pray.
29 And as he prayed, the fashion of his countenance was altered, and his raiment was white and glistering.
30 And, behold, there talked with him two men, which were Moses and Elias:
31 Who appeared in glory, and spake of his decease which he should accomplish at Jerusalem.
Thus, we have two witnesses standing before the Lord of the whole earth emptying the golden oil out of themselves. The law and the prophets spoke, in some way or another, of Jesus and the work which the Father had given Him to finish.
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Jhn 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
They stood, in space, before the Lord, Himself. However, they stood, in time, until John the Baptist.
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Lu 16:16 The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.
When Jesus was killed, many thought that the law and the prophets died, as well.
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Mt 21:38 But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance.
39 And they caught him, and cast him out of the vineyard, and slew him.
40 When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen?
41 They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons.
42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord’s doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?
43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
The two witnesses being clothed in sackcloth, they are in mourning. I think they are in mourning for the Son which was crucified in the city known, spiritually, as Sodom and Egypt.
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Ge 37:34 And Jacob rent his clothes, and put sackcloth <08242> upon his loins, and mourned for his son many days.
The reference to Sodom directs our attention to Isaiah's first prophecy to Judah and Jerusalem.
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Is 1:1 ¶ The vision of Isaiah the son of Amoz, which he saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem in the days of Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz, and Hezekiah, kings of Judah.
2 ¶ Hear, O heavens, and give ear, O earth: for the LORD hath spoken, I have nourished and brought up children, and they have rebelled against me.
3 The ox knoweth his owner, and the *** his master’s crib: but Israel doth not know, my people doth not consider.
4 Ah sinful nation, a people laden with iniquity, a seed of evildoers, children that are corrupters: they have forsaken the LORD, they have provoked the Holy One of Israel unto anger, they are gone away backward.
5 Why should ye be stricken any more? ye will revolt more and more: the whole head is sick, and the whole heart faint.
6 From the sole of the foot even unto the head there is no soundness in it; but wounds, and bruises, and putrifying sores: they have not been closed, neither bound up, neither mollified with ointment.
7 Your country is desolate, your cities are burned with fire: your land, strangers devour it in your presence, and it is desolate, as overthrown by strangers.
8 And the daughter of Zion is left as a cottage in a vineyard, as a lodge in a garden of cucumbers, as a besieged city.
9 Except the LORD of hosts had left unto us a very small remnant, we should have been as Sodom, and we should have been like unto Gomorrah.
10 ¶ Hear the word of the LORD, ye rulers of Sodom; give ear unto the law of our God, ye people of Gomorrah.
Thus, there was something of the law and the prophets which, at that time, still needed to be emptied out. Thus, I remind you of words of Jesus already cited in this post.
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39 And they caught him, and cast him out of the vineyard, and slew him.
40 When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen?
41 They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons.
42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord’s doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?
As we know from the book of Acts, droughts in Judea followed the resurrection of our Lord.
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Rev 11:5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.
Thus, as the unrepentant Jews began to persecute the converted Jews, the passing of the Kingdom to the nation that would bring forth the fruits of the Kingdom of God became apparent.
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Ac 11:27 ¶ And in these days came prophets from Jerusalem unto Antioch.
28 And there stood up one of them named Agabus, and signified by the Spirit that there should be great dearth throughout all the world: which came to pass in the days of Claudius Caesar.
29 Then the disciples, every man according to his ability, determined to send relief unto the brethren which dwelt in Judaea:
30 Which also they did, and sent it to the elders by the hands of Barnabas and Saul.
This followed the persecution and scattering of the Jewish converts (which were the totality of the church until Acts 10 where we read of Peter going to Cornelius) about which we have this witness in ch. 11.
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19 ¶ Now they which were scattered abroad upon the persecution that arose about Stephen travelled as far as Phenice, and Cyprus, and Antioch, preaching the word to none but unto the Jews only.
This was the persecution of the Lord, Himself, to which Saul of Tarsus had applied himself.
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Ac 9:5 And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.
All this is to say that the Law and the Prophets (Moses and Elias) were bearing witness in Jerusalem that the persecutors of Jesus were under judgment.
No doubt, this presentation is too broad in it's scope to digest quickly. For one thing, few Christians think of Christianity as a message limited entirely (even considering Cornelius and his people) to the Jews for much more than the first third of the book of Acts.
For another, most Christians do not think of the message in The Revelation of Jesus Christ as a message delivered in signs that can be compared to the signs of the Old Testament prophets for the greatest profit.
For another, few recognize that the fate of Jerusalem was like the fate of Sodom, and that that fate was not fulfilled until AFTER the resurrection of Jesus per Romans 9...
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29 And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha.
More to come.
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scythewieldor
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Dear Forever His,
I do not believe one should try to explain the 15th and 16th without the benefit of verses that follow.
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Is 14:15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.
16 They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;
17 That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners?
18 All the kings of the nations, even all of them, lie in glory, every one in his own house.
19 But thou art cast out of thy grave like an abominable branch, and as the raiment of those that are slain, thrust through with a sword, that go down to the stones of the pit; as a carcase trodden under feet.
20 Thou shalt not be joined with them in burial, because thou hast destroyed thy land, and slain thy people: the seed of evildoers shall never be renowned.
Thus, this expression of the king of Babylon comes up out of the pit which was his grave. This passage may be a source prophecy for some things that are presented in The Revelation.
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Rev 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
Re 17:10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.
11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.
I see the prophecy in Isaiah as related to the Rev. 17 prophecy through the determination that this king of Babylon is not joined with the other kings in death "in the sides of the pit". Instead, he goeth to perdition. That might be what is meant by Isaiah when he says "that go down to the stones of the pit".
"Perdition", here, is, in the Greek, "684 apwleia apoleia ap-o’-li-a". Apoleia might be the place which has Apollyon as it's king.
Thus, when the 8th beast is slain by the One whose mouth is a sharp sword, he does not return to the sides of the pit. He goes to the Lake of Fire.
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Re 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
Re 9:11 And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon.
Thus, we have, possibly, the strong connection between the king of Babylon and the angel of the bottomless pit that many believe exists. That angel could be Lucifer/Satan.
Naturally, I can't support this model with the rendering of the two witnesses in the streets "of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified" that I was taught in the Assembly of God.
I'll present a possible justification in the next post.
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scythewieldor
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Dear Forever His,
I believe that, to understand this passage, one must go to it's beginning.
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Is 13:1 ¶ The burden of Babylon, which Isaiah the son of Amoz did see.
Thus we are reading about things that pertain to the image whose head was gold- particularly, the end of it.
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Is 14:4 ¶ That thou shalt take up this proverb against the king of Babylon, and say, How hath the oppressor ceased! the golden city ceased!
Da 2:44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.
45 Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure.
It happens at the time of the return of the house of Israel to the land of the Lord.
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Is 14:1 ¶ For the LORD will have mercy on Jacob, and will yet choose Israel, and set them in their own land: and the strangers shall be joined with them, and they shall cleave to the house of Jacob.
2 And the people shall take them, and bring them to their place: and the house of Israel shall possess them in the land of the LORD for servants and handmaids: and they shall take them captives, whose captives they were; and they shall rule over their oppressors.
3 And it shall come to pass in the day that the LORD shall give thee rest from thy sorrow, and from thy fear, and from the hard bondage wherein thou wast made to serve,
In my understanding of things (which some- i.e., every one but me-, here, think is wrong),- since Isaiah has a habit of referring to the southern kingdom of Israel as Judah and the northern kingdom of Israel as Israel, and,
- since, in Isaiah 10, the prophet has already declared the return of a remnant of the northern kingdom departing into exile, and
- since Paul, in Romans 9, refers to the the Isaiah 10 prophecy when he justifies his assertion that the calling of the gentiles was equal to the calling of the Jews as "vessels of mercy which He had prepared afore unto glory", then,
this is the time when the scattered children of the house of Israel, which have accepted the gospel of the kingdom, are recognized as the house of Israel and taken, as captives (howbeit, in a benevolent way since the one who weakened the nations has no more power), to Lebanon and Gilead.
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Is 49:17 Thy children shall make haste; thy destroyers and they that made thee waste shall go forth of thee.
18 ¶ Lift up thine eyes round about, and behold: all these gather themselves together, and come to thee. As I live, saith the LORD, thou shalt surely clothe thee with them all, as with an ornament, and bind them on thee, as a bride doeth.
19 For thy waste and thy desolate places, and the land of thy destruction, shall even now be too narrow by reason of the inhabitants, and they that swallowed thee up shall be far away.
20 The children which thou shalt have, after thou hast lost the other, shall say again in thine ears, The place is too strait for me: give place to me that I may dwell.
21 Then shalt thou say in thine heart, Who hath begotten me these, seeing I have lost my children, and am desolate, a captive, and removing to and fro? and who hath brought up these? Behold, I was left alone; these, where had they been?
22 Thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I will lift up mine hand to the Gentiles, and set up my standard to the people: and they shall bring thy sons in their arms, and thy daughters shall be carried upon their shoulders.
23 And kings shall be thy nursing fathers, and their queens thy nursing mothers: they shall bow down to thee with their face toward the earth, and lick up the dust of thy feet; and thou shalt know that I am the LORD: for they shall not be ashamed that wait for me.
24 ¶ Shall the prey be taken from the mighty, or the lawful captive delivered?
25 But thus saith the LORD, Even the captives of the mighty shall be taken away, and the prey of the terrible shall be delivered: for I will contend with him that contendeth with thee, and I will save thy children.
26 And I will feed them that oppress thee with their own flesh; and they shall be drunken with their own blood, as with sweet wine: and all flesh shall know that I the LORD am thy Saviour and thy Redeemer, the mighty One of Jacob.
Zec 10:7 And they of Ephraim shall be like a mighty man, and their heart shall rejoice as through wine: yea, their children shall see it, and be glad; their heart shall rejoice in the LORD.
8 I will hiss for them, and gather them; for I have redeemed them: and they shall increase as they have increased.
9 And I will sow them among the people: and they shall remember me in far countries; and they shall live with their children, and turn again.
10 I will bring them again also out of the land of Egypt, and gather them out of Assyria; and I will bring them into the land of Gilead and Lebanon; and place shall not be found for them.
11 And he shall pass through the sea with affliction, and shall smite the waves in the sea, and all the deeps of the river shall dry up: and the pride of Assyria shall be brought down, and the sceptre of Egypt shall depart away.
12 And I will strengthen them in the LORD; and they shall walk up and down in his name, saith the LORD.
For Eden's sake (bless that heart who tries to make every one- even me- feel accepted), I'm breaking this presentation into parts.
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Eden
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scythewieldor skywaker, your point is well taken that since Jesus already cleansed heaven with the blood that He carried up to heaven on the day of His resurrection, since heaven is already cleansed, then the fall of Satan from heaven must have occurred SIMULTANEOUSLY...IF the cleansing of heaven had anything to do with Lucifer-Satan DEFILING heaven by their behavior.
But if the two ARE related, then Satan must already have fallen from heaven, but he has not yet, as you say, been put in the pit.
That means that since Jesus, Satan had been cast down to earth and is operating from the sky of the earth, as the prince of the power of the air of our earth.
And from there after Jesus, Satan-Lucifer has been wreaking havoc, although the havoc that Satan-Lucifer wrought BEFORE he was cast out of heaven was also horrible, so it may not have made much difference WHERE he was for he could wreak havoc from BOTH locations, from heaven and from the earth air?
love, Eden
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Forever His
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Hi scythewieldor ...
have you [or anyone else] thought about how these verses fit?
Isaiah 14:16 They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, [and] consider thee, [saying, Is] this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;
14:17 [That] made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; [that] opened not the house of his prisoners?
Forever His.
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Forever His
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Hi bluefrog and a BIG WELCOME to the site. ![[thumbsup2]](graemlins/thumbsup2.gif) I see that Eden has already made you feel right at home around here ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif) I have had an interest in learning more about this topic for many years now. Feel free to join in and be a part of the family.
Forever His
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scythewieldor
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Dear Believers,
Consider the possibility that...
quote:
Isa 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
...may have been fulfilled.
quote:
Lu 10:17 ¶ And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name.
18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.
19 Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you.
20 Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven.
21 In that hour Jesus rejoiced in spirit, and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes: even so, Father; for so it seemed good in thy sight.
That would leave the next verse in Isaiah yet to be fulfilled: namely...
quote:
Is 14:15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.
Thus, the most popular understanding of the Revelation scripture...
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Re 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
... that the fall of Satan is future may be wrong.
Can the next Revelation scriptures have had their fulfillment?
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Re 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
When did, or when will, salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of God, and the power of His Christ begin to have it's influence in heaven? Do you believe that the accuser of the brethren still stands before our God day and night?
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Heb 9:23 It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:
25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;
26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
It looks like Jesus, already, cleansed the heavenly things with His own sacrifice.
If they are cleansed, then the one in whom was found iniquity must be removed- and that, forever.
We are in the unenviable position of having to choose our actions based upon a choice between what we see and what we have been told by the Spirit of Christ.
Is there certainty that the prophecies have been given their correct interpretation?
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bluefrog
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EDEN said:
I want to know if God and Jesus are discussing "bringing their troops home" and what is their timeline.
BLUEFROG croaked:
Only the Father Knows.
But bluefrog was suggesting that eden was speaking of Christians as troops.
EDEN then said:
How knows you that ?
Matthew 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but My Father only.
That includes us frogs too, don't ya know ? But what are we gonna do for flies if the Lord of Flies is a gonner ? rivit
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Eden
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bluefrog wrote to Eden who had asked when "God was bringing the troops home from this war in heaven", bluefrog had answered: quote:
Me thinks....Only the Father knows.
Is it one of those which only the Father knows? And how knows you that?
love, Eden
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bluefrog
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No, your not gonna catch me on that one.
Me thinks....Only the Father knows.
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Eden
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bluefrog, I want to know if God and Jesus are discussing "bringing their troops home" and what their timeline is.
love, Eden
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bluefrog
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Sure, I finally decided to see what was going on here in the war zone discussion.
What is it that you want to cover about the war in heaven ?
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Eden
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![[Bible]](graemlins/bible.gif) ![[type]](graemlins/type.gif) Ahh, ... so you want to talk about "War in heaven?"
Revelation 12:7
And there was war in heaven; Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels.
love, Eden
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bluefrog
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Eden....Ha Ha, I finally caught on. ![[pound]](graemlins/pound.gif)
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Eden
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bluefrog wrote quote:
I sure am glad I found this board. You folks are somethin else. I love it. Before long I will be so smart that I won't be able to stand myself.
Even a Christian laying down can do a lot of good these days.
love, Edenstein von ze Bilhah or ze Zilpah
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bluefrog
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Y'All...I sure am glad I found this board. You folks are somethin else. I love it. Before long I will be so smart that I won't be able to stand myself.
Not only did Satan tempt his troops, Adam and Eve, but Jesus as well. The word tells us how Jesus responded and we are to do the same. The rebellion spread from Satan but we don't have to buy it.
If we "caught" sin and there is no "cure" then we need a new "us" and through "Grace" we can get "it". The price is set and the store is always open.
If God quarantined or killed off Lucifer then would we ask to be saved because of Love or Fear ? (the bible says to fear God and that turns some off but fear in that case means respect) Every person who has ever lived is going to face the throne even if they don't believe it.
If there is a Good then there must be a Bad.
If there is Love there must be Hate.
Stuff like that. rivit
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Eden
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hi, oneinchrist, you wrote quote:
If having free-will means that men can liberate themselves from their own sin, I certainly would agree that men do not have free-will in that sense...........but,
No, men cannot liberate themselves from their own sin, because it is their own decision-making (exercise of the will) that caused the sin.
Sin isn't just a word. It's a physical consequence too. So "sin" cannot be undone except by other acts. For instance, one man shoots another man with a gun, and then a doctor takes the bullet out. The sin of shooting cannot be undone, but the result of the sin incident "may" be able to be undone, but often not.
Because Adam and Eve chose to live a self-life independent of God, just like Lucifer, God no longer gave Adam and Eve input into their human spirit and now Adam and Eve were "on their own".
It is this "on their own" exercise of their mind/thoughts/will that then caused all the sin bc without God's input, man is a fairly dumb individual, prone to making some SERIOUS mistakes. So "free will cannot undo their own sin; free will CAUSES sin, and even IS sin. The Bible says we are "born with the sin nature".
oneinchrist, you then continued quote:
if having free-will predicates the ability to choose one of two or more alternatives without external compulsion(being forced) then I would agree that men have free-will in that sense.
As long as free will is not being forced or by compulsion, then it is free will.
And interesting, the instrument and exercise of free will is always free/available to operate, but the thoughts and the decisions leading up to this exercise of the instruement of the will are not entirely "free". Poverty, family love or abuse history, riches, opportunity, hard work, all these play a part in what decisions we ARE able to make with this "instrument of the will".
I think the instrument itself is "neutral", meaning it cannot decide anything by itself, the instrument of the will can only "execute" what was thought in the mind and dictated by circumstances like poverty, abusive family, loving family, conservative, liberal, lots of things impinge on what we finally "ask the will to do".
love, Eden
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TB125
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Daniel,
Here is an article that may add some insights into your understanding of this matter of man's "free will". It is entitled "The Myth of Free Will", and it is by Walter Chantry. I think that you should be able to find it here: http://wwwgospeloutreach.net/freewillmyth.html Let me know if you can't get it. I hope that it helps.
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Bob
Posts: 449 | From: Rockford Illinois | Registered: Nov 2003
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oneinchrist
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If having free-will means that men can liberate themselves from their own sin, I certainly would agree that men do not have free-will in that sense..................but
if having free-will predicates the ability to choose one of two or more alternatives without external compulsion(being forced) then I would agree that men have free-will in that sense.
People need to describe what they mean when they use the word "free-will" so that they can be on the same page. It is a word that just seems to be used in so many different ways. In scripture the word free-will is mostly used in conjunction with the word offering (As in freewill offering), and it is only used once in another way in this passage in Ezra 7:13 ......in a letter from King Artaxerxes to Ezra....
I make a decree, that all they of the people of Israel, and of his priests and Levites, in my realm, which are minded of their own "freewill" to go up to Jerusalem, go with thee.
With love in Christ, Daniel
Posts: 1389 | From: Wind Lake, WI | Registered: May 2007
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TB125
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Logically if Adam and Eve and Lucifer had a will that was absolutely free, none of them would have been under any obligation or authoritative power to do anything but what they wanted to do. But that was not their situation! They were each created beings, derived from God, who alone is "free" and independent of any outside authority or power. When Lucifer and Adam and Eve chose to use what powers of their wills that God had permitted them to have to rebel against God and disobey his direct commands and will, then they were subjected to God's sovereign judgment, and there was no one to whom they could appeal for any defense. Part of the judgment that God imposed on Adam and Eve is that all of their descendants would be born as sinners and be subject to God's authoritative will and judgments. There is no "freedom" from this with any of God's creation! The only remedy for sin is God's grace, which is still subject to his sovereign will. "Free will" is not and never has been a loop hole for anyone or any creature to avoid being subjected to God's sovereign will. That is why God is God. Such will and authority is an essential part of God's nature as God along with the qualities of holiness and love that are also parts of God's basic nature. We shouldn't try to minimize these qualities or limit their applications in our lives as beings who were created for God's glory. None of us are in any position to speculate about the nature of "free will" or the limitations of God's creative will and authority. I hope that this brief comment helps this discussion.
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Bob
Posts: 449 | From: Rockford Illinois | Registered: Nov 2003
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Forever His
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posted
AMEN !!! That is SO true. It becomes very obvious that "free will" is of absolute importance to God. The nature of love is such that God respects and allows each of His creation to make their own decisions... including the most important decision of all which is will we serve Him... or not.
Yet it is important to not loose sight of the fact that God was willing to subject His perfect creation to near destruction to allow the whole process of rebellion to show the real nature of rebellion. I am interested in exploring more about what that says about God...
May He bless us as we continue
Forever His
Posts: 719 | Registered: Jun 2002
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Eden
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Hi, Forever His, you wrote quote:
- God foreknew the rebellion of Lucifer and of Adam and He could have allowed the whole thing to never have happened simply by not creating Lucifer in the first place... therefore I believe that God had a "purpose" and a plan in letting it continue.
God could NOT have stopped creating Lucifer because God had to create ALL human creatures WITH A FREE WILL.
It is NO LONGER free will when, the moment someone makes the wrong thought somewhere as TIME went on (as in, time goes on, but God can see everthing in An Instant), when a FREE WILL person i NOT allowed to "also make a bad decision", THEN IT IS NOT FREE WILL.
Free will, and creating the "instrument of free will" inside of humans automatically means that the person CAN ALSO make a BAD decision with their FREE will, and when that person does, if someone does, then it is INAPPROPRIATE to then "go back" and UNDO that person just because "he did not exercise his free will properly". That's not free will. That's dictatorship of the will.
So if God wants to "create free will", then God "also has to let the consequences of free will continue to run their course down the entire path of creation". Period. Even God is bound by that for else it is NOT free will.
And the only kind of love worth having is free will love.
love, Eden
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Forever His
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Why is it that did God not put an immediate end to the rebellion that started in heaven? I supose we will need all of eternity to proeperly answer that question... yet for now, in my pondering this topic it has become obvious unto me that while we do not see everything clearly, yet there are several points that we may "reason together" and come to some reasonable conclusions about.
-God is all poweful and sustains everything that exists, including angels and people... even the wicked. I believe it is safe to concluded that God could have chose to end the rebellion in heaven, perhaps with just a thought, yet He "chose" not too.
- God has a purpose in everything that He does...
-God is not controlled by His emotions so He is able to make wise decisions based upon reason... He will not react to situtions based upon feelings of hurt, anger etc...
- God foreknew the rebellion of Lucifer and of Adam and He could have allowed the whole thing to never have happened simply by not creating Lucifer in the first place... therefore I believe that God had a "purpose" and a plan in letting it continue.
When God created this earth He said behold "it is very good"... and when God said that I believe that it was "VERY" good. When God allowed Lucifer to spread his "filthy" corruption everywhere and marr everything that God had made good, God sure must have one amazing plan in mind. So to continue...
In the rebellion of Korah Dathan, and Abiram is seen the working out, upon a narrower stage, of the same spirit that led to the rebellion of Satan in heaven. It was pride and ambition that prompted Lucifer to complain of the government of God, and to seek the overthrow of the order which had been established in heaven. Since his fall it has been his object to infuse the same spirit of envy and discontent, the same ambition for position and honor, into the minds of men. He thus worked upon the minds of Korah, Dathan, and Abiram, to arouse the desire for self-exaltation and excite envy, distrust, and rebellion. Satan caused them to reject God as their leader, by rejecting the men of God's appointment. Yet while in their murmuring against Moses and Aaron they blasphemed God, they were so deluded as to think themselves righteous, and to regard those who had faithfully reproved their sins as actuated by Satan. At this time God chose to step in and put an concise end to this attack upon His chosen leader, and ultimately rebellion against God Himself.
Num. 16:32 And the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed them up, and their houses, and all the men that [appertained] unto Korah, and all [their] goods.
16:33 They, and all that [appertained] to them, went down alive into the pit...
Notice how this event revolves around the temple worship, and who is the leader... However to keep on track with this discussion, God choose to quickly end this rebellion in one miraculous event... I pose a question unto our readers and Bible students... I ask you to read Numbers 16 and ask this question... Why didn't God do that with Lucifer? I would like to hear your thought's especialy pertaining to the context of "God's divine plan" to solve the rebellion issue...
May God richly bless
Forever His
Posts: 719 | Registered: Jun 2002
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Eden
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Hello Forever His and your bride-to-be Melissa, greetings. You also wrote quote:
Even when we were shaking our fists at God, and cursing His name He loved us and sent His son to die for us. Was there anything more precious that God could have offered than His own son? What is silver and gold.
What God and Jesus did for us is amazing an astonishing. And what a great blessing it has proven to be for me and for you, I think. Forever His, you continued] quote:
It is true that we need to spend our money wisely however the more important point to remember is that God's love is so abundant compared to our "selfish" based feeling that we call love.
Okay, again, here I think we have to be careful about almost "philosophizing" a subject away and fail to give concrete examples.
For example, it is EASY to say: quote:
It is true that we need to spend our money wisely however the more important point to remember is that God's love is so abundant compared to our "selfish" based feeling that we call love.
I agree that "remembering that God's love is more abundant than our former 'selfish' ways", but in daily life, give me an example or two of what this "God's love" does "differently in practice "once you go out of the house".
For example, since I met God, I have become sweeter and kinder to people, and I thank God for the change in me. Okay, so I smile.
But the guy is hungry. He appreciates the smile but a US$1 would be better. "Smiling" is something that can be done "for free", but giving money or volunteering of one's time is "not for free".
It is important that Christians can smile at others, because we need to convey that "there is a Life which is VERY WORTHWHILE", and therefore we "smile".
But "giving money" is often harder. And while I'm on the subject, what of the verse that says:
Luke 6:30
Give to every man who asks of you; and of him who takes away your goods, ask them not again.
Do you give to "every man who asks of you" or do you "first do a risk assessment"? LOL
Forever His continued: quote:
Remember what Jesus said to those in the temple... you see this woman who gave the two pennies [ in todays terms ] she gave more than the rest because she gave all that she had.
The real issue to God is not "how much" or even what percentage we give... but have we surrendered "all" that we have to Him or, are we living for our ourselves?]
I don't think that we "surrender ALL"; we surrender "parts of ourselves". Some parts of me are "totally surrendered", while "other parts are not".
In my experience after I became a a new bornagain Christian, over time I "surrendered another part of my life" to be used "only by Him", like the books I read, and like the music I now NOT listen to, and like the "movies I now NOT go to see", and others.
These "parts" of me are now "surrendered", but probably Jesus was the ONLY Person so far on earth who was, ahem, "100% surrendered to the LORD".
Forever His continued: quote:
I can only answer that for myself not anyone else. There are only two kinds of people in this world... those who live for the good of others... those who live for themselves. That is the real difference between the sheep and the goats. For example read Mat. 25. 31-46
Yes, that is true. There are only 2 kinds of people in the world since Jesus came in the 1st century A.D.
There are now ONLY bornagain Christians and non-bornagain Adamites and Evites, some of whom may still become bornagain Christians, only God knows how many. The rest of the Adamites and Evites will NOT make it into the world-to-come.
There are only 2 kinds of people in the world now. They are either in Lucifer's kingdom or they are in the kingdom of God's Dear Son Jesus, either trying to get out, or not trying to get out.
love, Eden
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Forever His
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I was thinking of these passages of scripture...
Rom. 5:6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.
5:7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die. 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
Eph. 2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
2:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
Even when we were shaking our fists at God, and cursing His name He loved us and sent his son to die for us. Was there anything more precious that God could have offered than His own son? What is silver and gold.
It is true that we need to spend our money wisely however the more important point to remember is that God's love is so abundant compared to our "selfish" based feeling that we call love. Remember what Jesus said to those in the temple... you see this woman who gave the two pennies [ in todays terms ] she gave more than the rest because she gave all that she had.
The real issue to God is not "how much" or even what percentage we give... but have we surrendered "all" that we have to Him or, are we living for our ourselves? I can only answer that for myself not anyone else. There are only two kinds of people in this world... those who live for the good of others... those who live for themselves. That is the real difference between the sheep and the goats. For example read Mat. 25. 31-46
God Bless you Eden
Forever His
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Eden
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Hi, Forever His, you wrote regarding the power of love: quote:
2- It gives with no thought to the cost unto itself.
Oh yes... it thinks the cost through and fully understands the cost... yet for loves sake is willing to endure any affliction and hardship.
I'm not sure about the quoted statement. I assume you are not only speaking of Jesus's love but also of humans exercising love.
In my own experience, my love for others is always measured by "what I can afford", but generally speaking "my survival comes first" and then if I can help or show love to somebody "in addition to" my own survival, then I can do that.
To repeat what you said quote:
2- It gives with no thought to the cost unto itself.
Oh yes... it thinks the cost through and fully understands the cost... yet for love's sake is willing to endure any affliction and hardship.
Regarding the bolded part, that may happen in extreme and rare cases, but normally people help with their "extra", if for no other reason that God, generally, does not want ME to put myself in jeopardy by helping another person so that now I am in jeopardy too.
This principle seems to be illustated by the 10 virgins, where the 5 "foolish" virgins said to the 5 "wise" virgins, "give us of your oil" and the 5 wise virgins answered, "not so, lest there not be enough for you AND me".
I think also that for this reason, a life with God consists of God giving us "more than enough so that we can be a blessing to others", and also God makes us "the head and not the tail", and "the ones who lend and not borrow", and so on.
So I personally find that people very carefully consider the cost of "giving love", and then when it is determined that they can "afford" this cost, then they "give this love".
love, Eden
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Forever His
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As we continue I thought I would discuss some thought's that were central in why I began looking at this topic and begin exploring deeper into it.
God did know in advance of the decision of Adam and Eve to rebel and of the far reaching results... and this is what originally got me to thinking about why... why did an all knowing, and loving God create the earth, Adam and Eve knowing full well that we would sink into this mess?
why create it in the midlle of this war... why not wait to settle the war first?
I believe that God is ALL WISE and has a Divine and "far reaching" purpose in all that He does. God could have finished the war that began in heaven before He created this earth yet He "choose" not too. He also could have quarantined the earth from the war yet He chose not to... The 64 million dollar question is why ?
I have come to the conclusion that mankind is a part of the solution in settling this war that started in heaven ...
This thought has stirred and fueled my ambition to study this topic more fully in trying to understand this God of LOVE who created us in the first place. It has been an honor and a blessing to be able to discuss it further with all of you.
May He be more fully revealed unto our understanding and may He live more abundantly in our hearts, as we continue to persue understanding His marvelous Love and grace as shown unto those who have smitten Him.
Forever His
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Forever His
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My DEAR Eden... ![[Kiss]](graemlins/Kiss.gif) You get 100% for your anwswer. You have written that so well and so to the whole point. That was right on ![[clap2]](graemlins/clap2.gif)
To make the picture even more complete... because God is all wise He knew one thing that would keep the whole system working. The very nature of love. There are at least two sides of love that I have discovered.
1- True love lives for the good of others.
2- It gives with no thought to the cost unto itself.
Oh yes... it thinks the cost through and fully understands the cost... yet for loves sake is willing to endure any affliction and hardship. Amazing when you think that this lead to the cross and all that was involved there... ie. the sins of the whole world being laid upon Jesus.
Yet God knew that true love draws for we read... If I be lifted up I will draw "ALL" unto myself. God gave His creation a free will to choose, or not to choose Him and His Amazing love... to experience the joy of living for others... or to experience the emptiness and unhapiness that selfishness brings. Yet it is that very unhappiness [ created by a broken relationship with Him ] that God designed to bring an awareness that there must be something better. I believe that God is still seeking and looking to deliver all His sheep that were scattered on that cloudy and dark day.
He freely accepts "all" who come to Him.
God Bless you
Forever His
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